Work is not some drudgery to put up with in order to get a paycheck. It is an art form containing all the components of art just as the project we are working on has components. Getting stuck is the machine telling one to slow down, pause and realize that one's own personality weaknesses are being expressed at the moment. Like a painter, we all need to step back from what we are engaged with so that our observing ego can get a perspective our engaged ego can't see. I was given this book by someone I worked with who felt it reminded her of me, my relationship with my son, my motorcycles and always having the desire to look beyond given limits. Quality often has an answer that classical world didn't push but submits to with experiment. Galileo's ramp experiments proved that uniform motion can only be in a straight line. Kepler and Newton saw elliptical paths to objects in orbit. Yet all objects in orbits are in uniform motion. Therefore, from Galileo's dictum we get the crazy realization that Einstein perceived - that all orbits are really straight lines in curved space time. The classical world does not want to make sense of that but experiment backs it up. Newton's greatest contributions came not during some intense study, but during a retreat from his work, piecing together some of the many things that he likely "just" put aside or bypassed at earlier experiences, not seeing any importance that, once looked at in a different way, simply falls together like one falling out of a tree and landing on one's feet. The modern view of entropy, Feynman's diagrams and a host of other concepts have grown from Quality.
I have only read this book once, but I feel like it requires a few readings. There is a lot to unpack... The narrative and the philosophical aspects intertwine in surprising and fruitful ways... One part that I enjoyed was his considerations about academia, and what an university is, and how we shouldn't be worrying about grades or even degrees... it is a really fun book to read. I actually found this video because, the way zen is explained there, you can practice it with basically any activity, and when i googled Zen and the art of math, i found the blog
Bloody excellent well done. This book did not resonate with me when I was a teenager but hearing your review and discussion really helped unpack it for me. Thank you.
Your analysis is top notched; I understood every single word you said and you are leading up to the climax, Zen. Pirsig comments about how human beings have always had the same intelligence but focus it on different survival methods. In that thought he bridges the gap between IQ and the classics as he tries to transport it to the philosophical technology he is looking at. By definition, great world religions are based on the same intelligence focused in time and space towards the classics; but is still read and practiced by the modern. Therefore, the use of Zen is his way to comment on how technology and philosophy are existing in the same system but the thinking has changed such as Kant and Hegel. The Greeks looked to Socrates as a great virtuous thinker and in teaching Plato, we get rational thought and logic. This same technology and math is what technology is based on; however, he does not mention another Greek phenomenon, the Gods. The Gods is who determines all life and death as expressed in Greek war and classics, i.e. Achilles, The Peloponnesian War. Thus this time warp, E=MC2 is the same logical philosophy he uses to express how we apply our DNA and IQ which he then contradicts to the human race as a flawed or broken system constantly needing to be fixed, a metaphor for his motorcycle and his son; which is also a religious metaphor. Pirsig does not delve into the nuts and bolts of religion but he touches on it and calls it Zen; the state of mind where all reality is a sharp blade and is cutting into the future.
I suffered from a very similar mental health challenge myself where my personality changed after Electric compulsive therapy. I am interesting in reading this book for sure
I think the book is also an excellent introduction to philosophical ideas. I struggled to be sure if Kant’s a priori had actually been understood. I was also struck by the idea of personal change through the experience of therapy. This may actually be true, but is a genius insight. I love also the realistic dialogue and his memory of many discussions. Quality struck me as being like phenomenology.
First read this in 1975/76 and I still have a copy that is so beat up I can't lend it out and lose it. Enjoyed discussion but would have like to hear their opinion on Aristotle view of Plato's horseness "The "something" that Appearances cling to he named "substance." And at that moment, and not until that moment, our modern scientific understanding of reality was born." (Corgi 1977 p374)
Great reading chaps. I think the most valuable thing I have taken from this book is how it enables science and art and religion to meet on the level of quality. I'd love to hear this discussion repeated with an artist/musician or priest thrown in to the mix.
Great discussion, thank you both for it. I found this video while searching around about Lila, his second book, and found both of your insights to be well thought out, rigorous as well as curious. I'd recommend reapproaching Zen again at a later date and doing a re-read as well as reading Lila as an extension of the overall discussion. I tend to think that this book and the concept of quality are almost at the center of the bullseye of why we as humans do anything at all. But it is indeed more of a discussion to be had instead of a youtube comment :)
I read this book when it came out and really struggled with it. I need to go back reread it. I was 16 at the time but I never forgot the principals and always applied the basic concepts I managed to get from it.
Amazing analysis! I'll return to listen to the test after finishing the book. I feel in going to need to read the book a few times to get even half of the ideas. Fantastic book!
For me this book tells me to live with Quality, to not reject either or separate classical or romanticis, to care about life itself, even if being is meaningless and absurd.
The intro on the 25th anniversary edition spoils the book. It was terrible to include it before the narrative. It absolutely should have come afterwards.
It concerned him that people felt the need to keep re-reading his books. I read both books at least ten times each. It wasn't that he wasn't clear about the expression of his ideas on the MOQ .... that has more to do with my lack of intelligence. It wasn't his fault, it is ours. His books should be featured in every school on Earth,.
What?! You have a book club?! I love your work Scott, and after following the work you've done previously, I'm 100% confident that your bookclub is the shit haha Thanks for the recommendation, I will check out the book asap and write a review later !
Personally, being a technical square myself, I was kind of disappointed by this review. It did not seem to express much in terms of emotions that were evoked in reviewers. The insights and analogies were presented verbatim without a lot of reflection, practically undigested. It felt quite a bit surface level.
I am sure you can back up your critique. However, as written, your critique itself is quite vapid. Where is it that these fine interlocutors could have provided greater depth, when the goal is not exegetical depth, but a brief book review. A book review isn’t meant to deliver a thesis, nor supply the exposition you carp about?
@@hershchat You have a good point, and I've learnt a few new words from your comment, so thank you. However one hour of dialog between two people is anything but brief. Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations when I started watching this video. I wanted to hear some greater insights of (possible) author's countrymen, and interplay of opinions that can only be born in a live dialog. We are spoiled these days with a variety of commentators, some of which can dive really deep even in the shallowest of topics. Maybe it is in fact easier to dig deep when talking about art pieces that leave less room for personal interpretation. This book is interesting in a way that its narrative is simple, and the topic is quite banal. But at the same time it can invoke some deep thoughts. I wanted to hear what kind of reflection and interpretation do other get from reading it.
Hey Scott, big fan of your work. Was interested to know do you still practice any of the languages you learned in the year without English with Vat? All the best
I still practice them, although fairly rarely *with* Vat anymore. For about two years, I did weekly or bi-weekly lessons in each language (including French, which I had learned earlier). Now I'm on a bit of a looser schedule, trying to bump up my Korean ability and still doing regular practice on Chinese. Interestingly, I think there's a lot of communicative inertia in a particular language. Vat and I have occasionally spoken to each other in these languages, but without the no-English rule, it usually doesn't last very long. Luckily I have opportunities to work on the languages with other native speakers.
Scott Young that's good, keep up good work man. I'm English and recently moved to Peru to live with my partner. I have a passion for Spanish and as you can well imagine this experience is certainly helping by being surrounded by the language and ultimately living without English. All the best Scott, cheers for your inspiration
OK I don’t agree with comments at about 54 minutes. If you listen to Roberts interview after Lila he talks about quality not being a result of objective or subjective. The objective and subjective are a result of quality. If we don’t get that point, we don’t get the meaning of the books. So that being said quality proceeds all laws. It would proceed the big bang. There is no such thing as nothing; null is information.
Work is not some drudgery to put up with in order to get a paycheck. It is an art form containing all the components of art just as the project we are working on has components. Getting stuck is the machine telling one to slow down, pause and realize that one's own personality weaknesses are being expressed at the moment. Like a painter, we all need to step back from what we are engaged with so that our observing ego can get a perspective our engaged ego can't see.
I was given this book by someone I worked with who felt it reminded her of me, my relationship with my son, my motorcycles and always having the desire to look beyond given limits.
Quality often has an answer that classical world didn't push but submits to with experiment. Galileo's ramp experiments proved that uniform motion can only be in a straight line. Kepler and Newton saw elliptical paths to objects in orbit. Yet all objects in orbits are in uniform motion. Therefore, from Galileo's dictum we get the crazy realization that Einstein perceived - that all orbits are really straight lines in curved space time. The classical world does not want to make sense of that but experiment backs it up.
Newton's greatest contributions came not during some intense study, but during a retreat from his work, piecing together some of the many things that he likely "just" put aside or bypassed at earlier experiences, not seeing any importance that, once looked at in a different way, simply falls together like one falling out of a tree and landing on one's feet. The modern view of entropy, Feynman's diagrams and a host of other concepts have grown from Quality.
Excellent discussion with thoughtful people. Highly recommend this video as a companion or follow-up to the book.
I have only read this book once, but I feel like it requires a few readings. There is a lot to unpack... The narrative and the philosophical aspects intertwine in surprising and fruitful ways... One part that I enjoyed was his considerations about academia, and what an university is, and how we shouldn't be worrying about grades or even degrees... it is a really fun book to read. I actually found this video because, the way zen is explained there, you can practice it with basically any activity, and when i googled Zen and the art of math, i found the blog
Bloody excellent well done. This book did not resonate with me when I was a teenager but hearing your review and discussion really helped unpack it for me. Thank you.
RIP Robert Pirsig 24.04.17
55:48 "The thing that you want is the thing you can't measure"...perfect
Your analysis is top notched; I understood every single word you said and you are leading up to the climax, Zen. Pirsig comments about how human beings have always had the same intelligence but focus it on different survival methods. In that thought he bridges the gap between IQ and the classics as he tries to transport it to the philosophical technology he is looking at. By definition, great world religions are based on the same intelligence focused in time and space towards the classics; but is still read and practiced by the modern. Therefore, the use of Zen is his way to comment on how technology and philosophy are existing in the same system but the thinking has changed such as Kant and Hegel. The Greeks looked to Socrates as a great virtuous thinker and in teaching Plato, we get rational thought and logic. This same technology and math is what technology is based on; however, he does not mention another Greek phenomenon, the Gods. The Gods is who determines all life and death as expressed in Greek war and classics, i.e. Achilles, The Peloponnesian War. Thus this time warp, E=MC2 is the same logical philosophy he uses to express how we apply our DNA and IQ which he then contradicts to the human race as a flawed or broken system constantly needing to be fixed, a metaphor for his motorcycle and his son; which is also a religious metaphor. Pirsig does not delve into the nuts and bolts of religion but he touches on it and calls it Zen; the state of mind where all reality is a sharp blade and is cutting into the future.
I suffered from a very similar mental health challenge myself where my personality changed after Electric compulsive therapy. I am interesting in reading this book for sure
I think the book is also an excellent introduction to philosophical ideas. I struggled to be sure if Kant’s a priori had actually been understood.
I was also struck by the idea of personal change through the experience of therapy. This may actually be true, but is a genius insight.
I love also the realistic dialogue and his memory of many discussions.
Quality struck me as being like phenomenology.
First read this in 1975/76 and I still have a copy that is so beat up I can't lend it out and lose it. Enjoyed discussion but would have like to hear their opinion on Aristotle view of Plato's horseness "The "something" that Appearances cling to he named "substance." And at that moment, and not until that moment, our modern scientific understanding of reality was born." (Corgi 1977 p374)
Same here... 1975 must have been my first read as well.
Great reading chaps. I think the most valuable thing I have taken from this book is how it enables science and art and religion to meet on the level of quality. I'd love to hear this discussion repeated with an artist/musician or priest thrown in to the mix.
Ive reached the end of this book and found it both exciting and confusing. It takes months to read this
Great discussion, thank you both for it. I found this video while searching around about Lila, his second book, and found both of your insights to be well thought out, rigorous as well as curious. I'd recommend reapproaching Zen again at a later date and doing a re-read as well as reading Lila as an extension of the overall discussion. I tend to think that this book and the concept of quality are almost at the center of the bullseye of why we as humans do anything at all. But it is indeed more of a discussion to be had instead of a youtube comment :)
This is where my father gave me my name last April 24, 1975.
I love that book! Read it for the first time in 2015)
I read this book when it came out and really struggled with it. I need to go back reread it. I was 16 at the time but I never forgot the principals and always applied the basic concepts I managed to get from it.
Excellent introduction!
Amazing analysis! I'll return to listen to the test after finishing the book. I feel in going to need to read the book a few times to get even half of the ideas. Fantastic book!
I read the book. The first60 pages , then I finished the book.
great discussion. Another book to discuss: Lila.... by Pirsig.
For me this book tells me to live with Quality, to not reject either or separate classical or romanticis, to care about life itself, even if being is meaningless and absurd.
This book changed my life. I have yet to get someone else to read it. I am on my 4th read. Amazing.
The intro on the 25th anniversary edition spoils the book. It was terrible to include it before the narrative. It absolutely should have come afterwards.
Agreed
Highly suggest reading "Surfaces and Essences" by Douglas Hofstadter
It concerned him that people felt the need to keep re-reading his books. I read both books at least ten times each. It wasn't that he wasn't clear about the expression of his ideas on the MOQ .... that has more to do with my lack of intelligence. It wasn't his fault, it is ours. His books should be featured in every school on Earth,.
What?! You have a book club?!
I love your work Scott, and after following the work you've done previously, I'm 100% confident that your bookclub is the shit haha
Thanks for the recommendation, I will check out the book asap and write a review later !
I'm currently almost finished the sequel Lila but not read the original.
I love this!
awesome Scott !!!
Does a tree have values?
Personally, being a technical square myself, I was kind of disappointed by this review. It did not seem to express much in terms of emotions that were evoked in reviewers. The insights and analogies were presented verbatim without a lot of reflection, practically undigested. It felt quite a bit surface level.
I am sure you can back up your critique. However, as written, your critique itself is quite vapid. Where is it that these fine interlocutors could have provided greater depth, when the goal is not exegetical depth, but a brief book review. A book review isn’t meant to deliver a thesis, nor supply the exposition you carp about?
@@hershchat You have a good point, and I've learnt a few new words from your comment, so thank you. However one hour of dialog between two people is anything but brief. Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations when I started watching this video. I wanted to hear some greater insights of (possible) author's countrymen, and interplay of opinions that can only be born in a live dialog.
We are spoiled these days with a variety of commentators, some of which can dive really deep even in the shallowest of topics. Maybe it is in fact easier to dig deep when talking about art pieces that leave less room for personal interpretation. This book is interesting in a way that its narrative is simple, and the topic is quite banal. But at the same time it can invoke some deep thoughts. I wanted to hear what kind of reflection and interpretation do other get from reading it.
Hey Scott, big fan of your work. Was interested to know do you still practice any of the languages you learned in the year without English with Vat? All the best
I still practice them, although fairly rarely *with* Vat anymore. For about two years, I did weekly or bi-weekly lessons in each language (including French, which I had learned earlier). Now I'm on a bit of a looser schedule, trying to bump up my Korean ability and still doing regular practice on Chinese.
Interestingly, I think there's a lot of communicative inertia in a particular language. Vat and I have occasionally spoken to each other in these languages, but without the no-English rule, it usually doesn't last very long. Luckily I have opportunities to work on the languages with other native speakers.
Scott Young that's good, keep up good work man. I'm English and recently moved to Peru to live with my partner. I have a passion for Spanish and as you can well imagine this experience is certainly helping by being surrounded by the language and ultimately living without English. All the best Scott, cheers for your inspiration
Good is the noun, not the adjective.
OK I don’t agree with comments at about 54 minutes. If you listen to Roberts interview after Lila he talks about quality not being a result of objective or subjective. The objective and subjective are a result of quality. If we don’t get that point, we don’t get the meaning of the books.
So that being said quality proceeds all laws. It would proceed the big bang. There is no such thing as nothing; null is information.
the whole universe is known in the past. By the time experienced it is over.
*The truth knocks on the door and you say 'Go away, I'm looking for the Truth." So it does...weird.*