The “Rampardos Theorem” and “Bastiodon Theorem” are actually pretty likely the canonical reason why those two went extinct. Rampardos can smash down anything, but it’s lumbering and stupid. Bastiodon can block any attack, but the second an enemy gets around its armored face, it’s done for.
seems like with both of them having either the best defense stat or best attack stat, the creators were so worried about them being overpowered that they just made sure they didn't have anything else
Can we do a "quasire theory" video where a pokemon doesn't necessarily need to have amazing stats or the strongest moves to be good but rather a unique set of interesting attributes that plays into the environment it's in to be usable in not just the lower tiers but also the higher tiers.
The best thing that has happened to Avalugg in Gen9, is that it has a way to not be an Ice Pokèmon at all. Is it a waste of a Terastal? Maybe, but damn at least Avalugg isn't THAT bad now.
There's something funny about the Rock-type more often than not being a liability to a dual-type Like, you'd just kinda assume it's basically Diet Steel™️, still pretty defensive just not quite so much, but it couldn't be further than the truth Although I guess there always has to be at least one type that is more of a hindrance, like Poison in Gen1 Nevermind the fact that it gives Psychics a means to obliterate and the nonexistent attack pool Poison had, but the immunity to the Poison status means nothing because it basically shouldn't turn up anyway, as all Poison does is prevent application the more impactful statuses in the form of Paralysis, Sleep, and the odd Freeze, so nobody would/should be running anything that inflicts it
Y'know what, just to further dunk on Rock, it really needs to be hammered in that Rock is *NOT* a defensive type, and I don't get why even FSG says it is It has 5 weaknesses and 4 resistances, with 3 or 4 of those weaknesses being _very_ common in offense [Water, Fighting, Ground, and maybe Grass], and all the resistances having debatable relevancy on average Maybe the Fire one is fairly relevant, but admittedly I don't know how much Normal, Poison, and Flying come up for one to want to factor in resisting them, and even then, you'll never guess what other type _also_ resists all 3 of those [hint: Starts with an "S", ends with an "L"] Rock is basically in the same exact boat as Ice is, just a hindrance in defense, but in offense it's pretty great, there's a reason Stealth Rocks and Stone Miss are important to have after all
@@professorhal8098 Mega Aggron already exists. Dude is literally PURE STEEL, and has Filter. An ability that literally HALVES all Super effective damage!
It's good that Shuckle has a niche of having both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock. Not being 4x weak to any type, let alone two of the most common attacking types certainly goes a long way, too.
Shuckle also has shell smash + contrary too boost it's defences into the 2000's. I have lost games to a shuckle with overwhelming defences. After one shell smash boost, even super effective attacks only do like 20% damage tops and it is free to toxic/rest/Infestation as it pleases. It becomes so defensive that it actually "beats" the bastiodon theorem as it's defence alone does make it powerful. But it can still be easily beat with a pokemon with taunt or immunity to being poisoned. So it's still not perfect and only works if you catch your opponent off guard. Also a lucky critical hit will probably kill it.
Also if you're feeling particularly evil, you can use a contrary shell smash toxic infestation rest set with chesto but that gets beaten by any inmediately strong water or rock type or literally any magic bounce, magic guard or taunt user so it's just a gimmick Edit: nvm someone already mentioned the unholy shuckle set
@@baldrian22 In Radical Red its uu just for having 40 hp instead of 20. It turns it doent have an hp boost. It does get Solid Rock which virtually removes all of its type weaknesses.
Shuckle has stats so minmaxed it is either a secret ultra beast lifeform, a genetic experiment horror, or meta humor. And this was here in Gen 2. It's mind-blowing that it's designed like that. Even fake 'mon show more restraint.
In those first 2 gens someone at game freak was cooking. Like how chansey with those minmaxed to the fullest stats is one of the first pokemon? And like both shuckle and chansey have something to do with cooking(chansey has an egg and shuckle can make a berry juice), so mastermind behind this minmax even predicted this let him cook meme. Wild
Early Pokemon was more of a Single Player game than a weird chess RPG multiplayer game. Having weird ultra specialized Pokemon that do ONE THING isn't too bad when you only have to take down 2-3 Pokemon. Shuckle just got Fuckled because it's a Gen 2 Pokemon and GameFreak is too busy making modern Single Player Pokemon like UBs, Paradoxes and Hisuians busted.
@@blackpow3r Yeah, the fact that the best Pokemon are the hardest to obtain is intentional. Chansey and Tauros are very rare, Snorlax and the legendaries are limited, Alakazam and Gengar need to be traded.
@@mr.penguindrewmateo8146 If hisuian Avalugg had a Ice/Steel typing, then It would have a 4x weakness to both fire & fighting with 2x weaknesses to Ground. I’m only doing the type match ups for it so if anyone else wants to add more info they can just reply
They also gave it 10 more points to both attack and speed at the cost of SpAtt and SpDef. Negligible overall, so it's odd that they went to the trouble of doing that. I guess it's meant to be a more offensive version so it's a good attacker in Trick Room. But ironically, it would lose to its Kalos form since it gets outslowed and takes more from Body Press.
@@mr.penguindrewmateo8146 i'd say it's better than pure ice at least though ice is horrible typing together with rock and grass those are bottom of the barrel defensive typings
Ironically, Hisuian Avalugg is the more interesting option in Pokemon GO PvP, since bulk is much more important there (and Hisuian Avalugg's stats in the original games gave it a better distribution of stats in Pokemon GO). The rock type also helps more than it hinders because it counters its ice-type weakness to fire and threatens back fire types with rock stab. Having rock and ice stab at the same time threatens an impressive number of pokemon in the meta with at least one of those weakness, and also gives a broad neutral coverage to many water and fighting pokemon that would take advantage of Hisuian Avallugg's rock side (it still suffers a lot to deal with steel types, although it´s not totally helpless against them). Rock type resistance to Flying and to Normal is pretty interesting to have too. Basically, Hisuian Avalugg can fight back much more efficiently its type disavantages in GO because of the mechanics of that game. Not a top tier pokemon, but pretty much usable.
I feel like this is also a lesson of how defense and HP are only good if both are good, since many of these are "high HP but bad defenses" or "high defenses but low HP"
Arguably, shuckle is also a decent pokemon, given they had a legitimate niche in ubers for a not insignificant number of generations. (don't forget shuckle theoretically has the highest attack stat in the game if he wants)
That's just a single factor in what can make a Pokemon bad defensively. There's way more to it. I mean, Toxapex itself has amazing defenses but horrible HP. The reason Pex works and not Dusknoir is because it has things that Noir doesn't have that lets it effectively wall. It has an amazing defensive typing with only three weaknesses and EIGHT resists to common offensive types, as opposed to Noir only being pure ghost and resisting very little outside of two immunities, one of which barely matters, and two somewhat mediocre resists. In addition, Toxapex has access to multiple forms of recovery. The base move itself, Black Sludge for an item, Regenerator for its HA... It can stick around, and even if it leaves it's gonna come back bolstered up. Noir doesn't have any recovery outside of Pain Split which is gimmicky and doesn't work well. And lastly, it provides valuable utility in not only spreading burns through scald, but a very important trait in having Knock Off, which cripples many pokemon hoping to try and stick in on it. In addition to possibly screwing over opposing walls. All Noir can do is burn. Burning is solid, but it can't do anything otherwise. Granted Toxapex is in a pretty sore spot nowadays thanks to having many of its tools stripped away, but it still proves how something with high defenses and low HP can work where something else failed. Because it has the means to bolster its defensive prowess, where something else couldn't.
We still need a "Brave Bird Theorem" around Gen 6 Talonflame and explaining how you can have mediocre Attack stat and still terrorize the meta as an offensive powerhouse through the combinarion of other factors.
Brave Bird was the least of your worries when talonflame hit the field. As good as priority in that move was Roost with Priority was far more irritating especially with Talonflame spreading Burns with Will-o-Wisp, taunts your utillity Mons and pivots around with U-Turn. Sure Brave Bird was an excellent Lategame move for cleaning the field but not all why Galewings was so strong :P
That's easy though with literally zero complexity: if you're faster than everything then your offensive stats don't matter because slapping on a Choice item completely removes that downside in the most braindead simple manner imaginable. Give literally any pokemon in the game with the most mediocre of attacking stats priority on a high BP move, then they're instantly overpowered and centralize the entire game around them out of sheer bad game design. The typing of the attack doesn't even matter, considering how this happened with a Grass type once (the type that everyone calls ass in terms of offense) and had a similar effect, because this dynamic is just that overwhelmingly broken. This happened again with Rilaboom with Grassy Glide, then is happening again with Tera Normal Dragonist with Extreme Speed AND Palafin in general. Pokemon's devs used to have a brain via knowing that priority moves need to either not hit hard or have a caveat that can easily be worked around (Sucker Punch), then proceeded to lose that brain and make several generations in a row of seeing the exact reason why those caveats were needed over and over again and never seeming to learn in the dumbest way possible.
@@AshenDust_ I mean it's got 120 Attack and 100 Special attack, that's pretty freaking great with it's only problem is that it doesn't have shadow claw
Shuckle’s case is particularly painful because come Gen 7, Pyukumuku comes to town without a ton of the support moves Shuckle has and no attacking moves and lower defenses, but with a better HP stat, better type and Abilities, and of course, Recover.
the HP stat isn't even shuckle's main issue (except when it faces seismic toss etc.) as it is STILL almost as bulky as friggin Registeel. The problem with Shuckle is .... everything else, basically.
That happened in the anime. They bickered over which was better between offense and defense, and they battled each other using Rampardos and Bastiodon. The episode is called "Ancient Family Matters." I won't tell you who won, but it is worth a watch!
I remember seeing the datamines for it on the Smogon forums alongside the moves and ability it had a week prior to SM’s release. Some said it would be very good, but I can see those who thought it would be bad due to low base HP and offenses.
Toxapex was annoying because you had to figure out first if it was special or physical defensive. Guess wrong and you lost an item, got scald burned or had layer of Toxic Spikes on your side of the field 🤢👍 fun to deal with... not
@@geometryemperor And before Gen 9, Scald basically let Toxapex get away with free damage while crippling roughly half of the offensive Pokemon, and reliable Toxic and/or Baneful Bunker allowed it to punish opposing walls and attackers pretty easily. And why not slap on a Rocky Helmet to further punish physical attackers while you're at it? Toxapex basically could do no wrong in Gens 7 and 8 And then Gen 9 slapped it in the face and stole everything from it
Definitely needed. For example, there’s Clefable that has 95/73/90 bulk. While it’s not the physically bulkiest, its HP, abilities, recovery and typing make it one of the best walls. Same with Toxapex with its 50/152/142 bulk, type combo, Regenerator and utility. While Shuckle’s low HP, lack of instant recovery and inadequate defensive typing hold it back. Even Guzzlord that has 223 HP but 53 defenses. Dusclops and Dusknoir also struggle similarly with Shuckle. There’s Hariyama that has 144 HP but despite having below average 60 defenses, it can take at least one neutral hit. Some Pokémon have one good defense stat but one bad one, such as Great Tusk, and it has decent speed and coverage. One wouldn’t let it switch into a a special attack in most cases. What matters are basically typing, stat numerics and what utility the Pokémon has.
For Clef, I think that the immunity to passive damage, combined with instant healing and good utility (pretty sure it has one of the biggest movepools in the franchise, with Knock Off being part of it). It’s durable enough, immune to being whittled by sand or rocks, and it’s unpredictable
@@borby4584Yep, Magic Guard is one of the things that makes it really good to use as a wall and and an attacker thanks to no Life Orb recoil. Plus Unaware and mono Fairy typing.
At the end of the day, Pokemon have to be well-rounded enough, even if they're very specialized, that they can do what they intend to do. Kartana is arguably one of the best attackers in OU history because of its high offenses and speed. But it also has good typing and a good defense stat to let it switch in, as well as decent coverage to not get walled by too many things, as well as an outstanding ability. Deoxys Attack may be the most specialized attacker out there, with an inability to switch into almost any attack thanks to its low defenses and lackluster defensive typing, but because it has very high speed and offenses as well as great coverage, it works (or at least it used to).
Another thing that makes Clefable great defensively is that it also has another good ability in unaware, which has been proven to be great on other Pokemon such as Quagsire most notably, and more recently, Skeledirge. While magic guard is great for immunity to any type of passive damage, there has been at least one generation so far that unaware has been preferred due to it letting it treat set up Pokemon (and possibly even the boost from choice band/specs, if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong here) as though their stats never changed. All this is in addition to it having a good defensive type and solid movepool to work with as well
To be fair to Avalugg, it’s definitely the best of the mons in the video. Not only is it currently having a great gen with Terastalization, it’s so absurdly physically bulky that neutral hits are essentially resistences, to the point it kinda makes it’s type sorta worth it, especially now with the snow mechanics. It has issues, but it could be much, much worse. *stares at its Hisuian form*
I will forever hold my Contrary Shuckle with Shell Smash, Toxic, Infestation, and Rest near and dear to my heart. I've crushed so many dreams with that set
Gotta love (or hate, for Sinnoh fans) how BOTH of the fossil lines of the generation ended up became the literal definition of tremendously good stats packed alongside horrendously bad typings.
I always hated how limiting rock typing was to fossil pokemon, always thought it was kinda dumb they always felt like they had to slap that onto them just because they were fossils originally.
Hey at least we finally got an amazing Rock type wall, it only took a minmaxed ability, broken DoT move, HP/DEF/SPDEF all in the 90+, Recover and the ability to ditch Rock as a typing
One of the biggest problems is a lack of unique defensive moves. Nearly any Pokémon can run a defensive moveset with protect, substitute, rest (or other recovery move) and toxic (at least in older generations). It’s a decent defensive set, but you have to really stand out to use it without being outclassed.
Taunt devours these sets. Subs don't even block Taunt, leading to finding very few opportunities to use Toxic or Rest. Even if you can Rest, it leaves you a sitting duck for two turns that can be capitalized on unless you have Sleep Talk. You should always have at least one attacking move, so you're not complete setup fodder.
I have to imagine Zamazenta encapsulates this theorem on the Uber/Restricted level. We're talking about the Pokemon intended to be the "ultimate shield" with amazing defenses and even a decent typing and failing so hard at the job that most of the time if it's used at all it's used purely as an attacker.
They should at least have given it Iron Defense (equal to Zacian's Sword Dance) and made Behemoth Bash scale with DEF. Better yet, give it Cosmic Power, Body Press, and Recover.
The problem about most pokemon with the bastiodon theorem is that: 1. Either they have terrible type combination that can hurt them 2. Low HP base stat which makes the high defenses useless
more like either terrible type combination or lack of movepool / things to do. Shuckle has better effective defenses than deoxys and aegislash if you factor in both it's hp and defense values, the main thing holding it back is not it's low hp stat (something both of those other pokemon also don't have much off). Thing that makes those other pokemon work while shuckle doesn't is the fact that deoxys-defense has recover to reliably keep it topped off while aegislash has ways to threaten the opponent. The central difference is these other mons do things while shuckle has the lowest attack stat in the game, no speed, no good moves etc
Being a jack of all trades tends to only be good ever if you're also a master of all Mew has 100s across the board and he's kind of ok (gen 1 non withstanding) , Arceus has 120s across the board and he's Ubers
@@brunop.8745 Arceus and Mew are both backed by their movepools which are as extensive as a movepool gets to be( bar Smeargle's), effectively making them "Masters of all" as you say, if you look at other extremely balanced mons like Silvally you'll notice that their lack of direction causes them to fall off.
I would say that the Electivire theorem is more about how being able to hit so many different types super effectively doesn't always translate to being a good offensive Pokemon. I would hardly call Electivire a jack of all trades as it's not very durable at all and it's speed and special attack could both arguably be better for an offensive Pokemon
As someone who got their first game when gen 4 came out, i absolutely adored both Rampardos and Bastiodon's designs, and always assumed they were some of the best Pokémon out there. I especially enjoyed carrying my Rampardos around and just destroying everything in-game. I die a little inside every time I'm reminded just how bad they are competitively, though they will always be #1 for me 🙏❤️
Your Rampardos actually got a chance to hit something? Wow. Either way, don't sweat it. Viability in Competitive multiplayer is not the end-all, be-all of any Pokemon.
They'd still be kinda bad because of their collective low Spd and bad defensive typing. Staying in would be a nightmare, but at least they'd be able to take one non-4x super effective hit?
@@sharpeylogic2907 you seem to missing the point, he wants to take Rampardos's Defensive Stats, Bastiodon's offensive stats, and put them into one really bad pokemon. Hence the use of the word Abysmal.
Rampardos theorem and Bastiodon, what more are we going to see? Electrode theorem (Speed isn't everything), Quagsire theorem (bad stats can make a good pokémon), who knows
In the case of the Quagsire theorem that you mentioned, I think a good example of this could very well be Sableye is gen5: prior to then, the only thing it really had going for it was a type combination that had zero weaknesses, but this didn't mean a ton on something with as pitifully low stats as Sableye. But after it got prankster as it's hidden ability, it suddenly became decent and was able to fulfill a niche, even becoming better than the statistically stronger Spiritomb
Marshadow falls in the quagsire theorem as well, 125 attack isn't amazing, but it's techinician + shadow sneak, unresisted STAB combination in any game that he's in, and spectral thief that made Marshadow and absolute monster to deal with
I'm not sure Wigglytuff qualifies for the Bastiodon Theorem - raw stats mean nothing if you have so many weaknesses and no utility, since its key problem is that it DOESN'T have those raw defensive stats, so it can't make use of the utility and typing it HAS.
The thing is that high HP + low defense mons _have_ been used to some capacity in lower tiers before; defensive Hariyama has been the most successful of these high HP/low defenses walls throughout the generations, while Wailord and Guzzlord have had their defensive niches in their respective debut generations of NU due to their good resistances. Heck, Drifblim is one of the best defensive Pokémon of current Gen 9 NU today. Wigglytuff has NEVER been a successful defensive wall; the most success it ever saw as a bulky Mon was in Gen 2 NU, and Gen 2 had max EVs for all stats so Wiggly's awful bulk, speed, and mediocre defensive typing was less pronounced.
Wigglytuff was pretty good in Triples since people often ran 3 intimidates as a lead which would give it +6 special attack with Competitive. Having a tailwind user and Assault Vest to patch its poor bulk meant it did pretty well in certain situations, I certainly had fun with it. I just wish it was useful in Doubles and Singles now Triple Battles are dead
It's funny to me that ice is usually the defensive magic in other RPGs, but it's horrible in Pokemon. They really just need to give ice type more resistances.
The funniest thing to me is that Game Freak tried to "fix" Avalugg by giving it a Hisuian Form, but failed spectacularly by shackling it with the Rock typing exacerbating its weaknesses to Fighting and Steel with further piling on the pain by giving it a signature move (Mountain Gale) with a flinch chance that will never see use thanks its atrocious base 38 Speed.
I suppose they wanted to have it used exclusively as a TR mon, else Mountain Gale makes no sense whatsoever. Then again, why give it extra Speed over standard Avalugg if it's not supposed to use it? Hell if I know, GF sometimes just makes weird stuff and goes with it.
And they gave it strong jaw despite having a whole two moves boosted by it. Not even its signature move, when stuff like Sharpness Kleavor exists. Why did they do this.
Is there any chance for future videos like this you could put up the base stats for the pokemon for a bit like you do in the regularly scheduled videos? It would really help, like when you're talking about how bad a pokemon's stats are it would be nice to have seen just how bad they were
Wigglytuff seems like a counter example here. It’s hp is great, but defenses are bad, making it a bad wall. Kind of the opposite of talking about defense isn’t everything
I don't know why, but I'm kinda smelling "Why Speed Isn't Everything - The Electrode Theorem" in a somewhat near future. Nice video BTW, I love this short documentaries about concepts rather than a pokemon itself.
I'm loving all these Theorem episodes and some ideas people are suggesting. At this point you could open up a False Swipe University with all these lectures about successful (and unsucessful) competitive Pokemon design.
Except speed honestly is everything. Think of every pokemon that literally only had speed going for them, and they at least had a niche as a hyper offense lead or start of a baton pass chain in the case of speed boosters.
@@kyklous3657 Yeah. Look at Origin Palkia and Dialga. They're pretty much universally accepted as an absolutely trash form change, with Dialga being comically bad, but Palkia gets a second look because a slight buff to Speed is worth everything tied up in the garbage form.
Electrode is the only thing in Gen 1 that can safely put a Thunderwave on Mewtwo because it's the only thing that safely outspeeds it. Its speed can win you games even though its base stats really shouldn't. Electrode's problem is its barren movepool more so than its focus on speed and even then, it can still go boom before its opponent can do anything. Speed is so much more valuable than any other stat in this game, you'd kinda be hard pressed trying to find enough Pokémon that specialize in it and don't use it well to make a list. Jumpluff and Dugtrio, maybe?
@@rainpooper7088 Yeah, Electrode had a niche in Gen 1 to paralyze Mewtwo, a niche almost nobody tries to exploit since Mewtwo almost always run Rest. Outside of that, it's always been a mediocre mon. You also have Jumpluff and Dugtrio (save from the times Arena Trap wasn't banned), as you mentioned yourself. You also have Ninjask, being useless out of Baton Pass teams. You also have Salazzle, which is worthless. You also have Jolteon, being one of the fastest Pokémon in the first two Gens, and also one of the worst Eeveelutions ever. You also have Floatzel, who hasn't even been a decent Swift Swim Pokémon until Gen 9. You also have Crobat, Swellow, and even Noivern, whose Speed stats haven't been able to keep them revelant. Hell, even Gen 1 OU King, Tauros, was outclassed in Gen 5 by its bulkier, much slower counterpart Bouffalant. So yes, let me tell you, there's plenty of Pokémon who can't make good use of their Speed.
The Wigglytuff evo line is my fav of all time and it sucks so much that they're not viable at all... I'm quite happy that Scream Tail exists now because it's truly a dream come true, a competitive, viable Jigglypuff!
Well unlike the Virgin Bastiodon, at least Chad Shuckle managed to carve out a niche in Gen 8 Ubers while still being Untiered, now that's a typical Shuckle Stuff
Who would've thought a fossil pair of a glass cannon & a stone wall (opposite of a glass cannon) could bring forth theorems around them? Maybe something like the Quagsire theorem and/or Smeargle theorem (which hopefully should be obvious as to its meaning) could be brought forth too for helping to round out viability ways?
A video about risk assessment vs power of moves would be interesting to delve into. Especially when a bunch of moves had their power nerfed a few gens ago.
Having a Ninjask theorem for speed, and Shedninja theorem for how a broken ability/move/item isn't always enough to cover bad stats, would both be great to eventually see.
Both those are actually solid though. Shedinja is very meta dependent, but for years was actually excellent in Ubers, as a catch all answer to Kyogre, Xerneas, most Mewtwo, and so on. It could play interesting games around pokemon like Deoxys and Aegislash, and has an interesting pivot role in dealing with Primal Groudon. It's fallen off, mostly because every single new box legendary and their extended family gets built in Mold Breaker, but, them's the breaks. Ninjask only disappeared because Baton Pass got banned. And to a partial extent because Scolipede is Cooler Ninjask, but even then Ninjask has a few niches over it. It would still be menacing people if not for that.
So, the theorem is supposed to be "just having good defensive stats doesn't make you a great wall", but... Wigglytuff-- Its main weakness is its low defense and special defense Dusknoir-- Its main weakness is its low HP Shuckle-- Its main weakness is its low HP ...Sounds more like the thing letting them down is the defensive stats themselves. I left a like for the research and presentation, which as always were top notch, but compared to the Rampardos Theorem this is a lot more tenuous of a concept
Contrary shell smash sets would be cancer if paired with a magnet pull user. Either the opponents got a perish song trapper, a poison type with recovery, or their magic guard user has to pray shuckle didnt forgo infestation or toxic for gastro acid
While Carracosta is my favorite fossil by far, I think the Gen 4 duo are my favorite fossil class on average. Partially BECAUSE those absurdist stat blocks make them REALLY fun to use
I think bastiodon and shuckle should be switched, not to be emblematic of the naming of this video, but because shuckle has had legit niches in the OU meta game (I remember it being quite annoying with setting up Sticky Web in gen 6-7 OU while also packing infestation) while Bastiodon has NEVER had such niches
10:17 this is just wrong. Rock is a terrible defensive typing. It has 5 weaknesses, 3 of which are very common (fighting, ground and water). While it only has 4 resistances, 2 of which are common (fire and flying).
Poor shuckle needs an evolution into a full brewing vat. It wouldn't change defenses or attacks, but it would increase hp and give it an ability that either doubles the effect of berries or converts them into twice as effective juice.
495 is pretty high for a BST. If it needs to evolve, it needs to be at most 550 (Ursaring and Bisharp have 500 and 490 BSTs in general and both their evolutions are 550), but it needs to have stats lowered in the process. As most regular Pokémon have BSTs up to 540 save for a few.
Please feature next the "Clefable Theorem". It's basically why stats isn't everything. A pokemon that is deemed as mediocre because of its sybpar stats but proved to be otherwise because of the utility provided by its typing, movepool, and ita ability. Clefable, Nidoking, Breloom, and Scizor, the blue Unaware wall, and Azu are the premier examples.
If it makes you feel better I’m thinking of giving Ice resistances to Water and Electric as well as replacing Stealth Rocks with an Electric Type counterpart of it.
Rampardos can attack, but can do nothing else. Bastiodon can take hits, but can do nothing else. Fittingly that these Pokemon are fossil counterparts in Gen 4.
While they were clearly going for "Unbeatable Spear meets Invincible Shield" with the idea. My personal head-canon, is that they're were designed visually to do that, but mechanically wise they were intentionally kneecapped and made un-viable, in order to explain why they went extinct.
Tbf, Bastiodon can Toxic, Stealth Rock and Roar which means it atleast has some utility. It's the godforsaken Fighting and Ground quad weeknesses which kills its viability.
@@kurusu1892What's wrong with Electivire? It's the one Electric that gets past the thing I cant stand about Electric types. They usually only Learm Electric moves. While Electivire lears a whole bunch of moves, Physical and Special.
@@josephbulkin9222 look at any of its smogon overviews. the problem with electivire is that its stats are laid out in such a way that it simply cannot excel at anything. it's a physical electric type, meaning that it has to choose between extremely high risk (wild charge/supercell slam), low power (thunder punch) or using its much weaker special attack to do anything, which severely weakens its effectiveness. since it doesn't have any good setup moves, its coverage hits like a noodle even on supereffective hits. it has a lot of coverage options, yeah, but these options suck on it. low base power coverage like ice punch is fine when you have the raw strength to back it up, but electivire's unboostable 123 attack stat simply isn't high enough to get away with it. and even though its abilities seem good, again, its offenses just aren't high enough for a single speed boost from motor drive to let it threaten anything. it's "OU by technicality" in gen 4 as a warning to newer players who are tempted to use it. it's the definition of jack of all trades but master of none. i think there should be an "electivire theorem-why coverage isn't everything", or on noob bait mons in general (gen 1 machamp, gen 4 electivire/dusknoir, gen 6 ambipom, etc), for mons that seem absolutely incredible on paper, but in execution, just flop.
So your first example of "defense isn't everything" was Wigglytuff who you go on to explain how it excels in every category OTHER than its defensive stats, and thats why it is bad.
Bastiodon and Rampardos are so representative of a problem that you even gave the "theorem" their names They straight up sabotaged gen 4 Fossils If at least it had come out after they decided to drop the gimmick that every fossil pokemon has to have the -garbage- , i mean Rock type
I feel like Zamazenta needs to be in this list. It's got a decent-ish defensive typing, really good defenses, and a great ability to bolster that. However, it has absolutely zero moves to help it function as a tank and has to resort to being offensive, turning it into a Walmart Zacian. It had no way to capitalize on its defenses, no chip damage, no good setup moves, no recovery, etc. And even then Zacian did a better job as a tank because Fairy/Steel is just that good defensively. And that's not even mentioning that for some crackhead reason Game Freak thought that Body Press, the new Fighting move that scaled off of Defense, should NOT be given to the Fighting type Legendary completely based around Defense. Its only good STAB move was Close Combat, a move that is antithetical to its design and intended playstyle. Zamazenta also made it painfully obvious how lacking in diversity Fighting type moves are. Almost every move is either some punch, kick, throw, or some other move that really only makes sense on a bipedal or humanoid Pokémon. So the second you have a quadruped Fighting type like Zama, the Swords of Justice, or Paldea Tauros, the only Fighting moves they have access to are Close Combat or a signature move designed specifically for them.
@@glacierwolf2155 I'd go with Persian Theroum personally. 115 speed is still pretty fast even by today's standards, and it's movepool is something many would envy. But it can't hit hard or take a hit well.
Even the worst of the speedsters can still try to pull off some utility/disruption before they get taken down; even Wugtrio can Memento something before it bites the dust anyway
The speed theorum has too many asterisks. Take a pokemon, give it tons of speed and nothing else, and someone has figured out SOMETHING good to do with it. It might not be the best, but they're not on the level of Rampardos and Baztiodon. Ninjask almost is, but that's not because Ninjask is bad, but because Ninjask's thing has been banned. It'd probably be like UU otherwise, and only UU because Scolipede is Cooler Ninjask
The “Rampardos Theorem” and “Bastiodon Theorem” are actually pretty likely the canonical reason why those two went extinct. Rampardos can smash down anything, but it’s lumbering and stupid. Bastiodon can block any attack, but the second an enemy gets around its armored face, it’s done for.
Ultra beasts had a reason they were so powerfull, half the stats were all they needed
All the fossils were designed to have some kind of drawback, until Galar
@@thomasthetrain3715 even those aren't really true fossiles because they were mashed up all wrong lol
@@thomasthetrain3715 Yes, the Rock type
@@IloveHildasfeet yea, i agree
I love how Rampardos and Bastiodon are counterparts and they each represent how NOT to make an offensive and defensive Pokemon
Did they die out because Rampardos kept headbutting Bastidons and they just killed each other over time? Like smashing a rock with another rock?
@@iforgotmyname1669 Nah, it's like smashing 2 M&Ms together - the loser breaks, and the winner doesn't.
Gen 4 design, everyone
@@Lardo137 I understood that reference
seems like with both of them having either the best defense stat or best attack stat, the creators were so worried about them being overpowered that they just made sure they didn't have anything else
Can we do a "quasire theory" video where a pokemon doesn't necessarily need to have amazing stats or the strongest moves to be good but rather a unique set of interesting attributes that plays into the environment it's in to be usable in not just the lower tiers but also the higher tiers.
I agree
The most obvious example is Murkrow
Azumarill instantly popes into my mind
Like Clefable?
I read the quagsire theory xd, which applies perfectly
It's so hilarious that they gave Avalugg a chance at redemption with its Hisuian form, but instead somehow just made its type even worse
At least the regular one doesn’t have quad weaknesses that make it’s bulk pointless. The Hisuian form feels like a bad joke.
For real. I mean, they not only gave it a horrid defensive typing, they gave it a tiny, insignificant Speed buff for literally no apparent reason.
The best thing that has happened to Avalugg in Gen9, is that it has a way to not be an Ice Pokèmon at all. Is it a waste of a Terastal? Maybe, but damn at least Avalugg isn't THAT bad now.
There's something funny about the Rock-type more often than not being a liability to a dual-type
Like, you'd just kinda assume it's basically Diet Steel™️, still pretty defensive just not quite so much, but it couldn't be further than the truth
Although I guess there always has to be at least one type that is more of a hindrance, like Poison in Gen1
Nevermind the fact that it gives Psychics a means to obliterate and the nonexistent attack pool Poison had, but the immunity to the Poison status means nothing because it basically shouldn't turn up anyway, as all Poison does is prevent application the more impactful statuses in the form of Paralysis, Sleep, and the odd Freeze, so nobody would/should be running anything that inflicts it
Y'know what, just to further dunk on Rock, it really needs to be hammered in that Rock is *NOT* a defensive type, and I don't get why even FSG says it is
It has 5 weaknesses and 4 resistances, with 3 or 4 of those weaknesses being _very_ common in offense [Water, Fighting, Ground, and maybe Grass], and all the resistances having debatable relevancy on average
Maybe the Fire one is fairly relevant, but admittedly I don't know how much Normal, Poison, and Flying come up for one to want to factor in resisting them, and even then, you'll never guess what other type _also_ resists all 3 of those [hint: Starts with an "S", ends with an "L"]
Rock is basically in the same exact boat as Ice is, just a hindrance in defense, but in offense it's pretty great, there's a reason Stealth Rocks and Stone Miss are important to have after all
The fact that Shuckle, the most defense oriented mon in the game, has its only niche in suicide hyper offense is truly hilarious.
And it's also got a meme niche of being the most powerful attacker
It’s the butter bot of Pokémon
@@thehiddenninja3428Yes, He is a doubled edged sword. Litteraly.
thnx for the recap :p
@@thehiddenninja3428ain’t that kyogre?
Imagine having amazing defensive stats and being quad weak to the two best offensive types in the game
I have a simple way to buff aggron simply swap his part rock typing for a part dragon typing and give him a good recovery move.
The person above me said we need a new Ubers mon
@@ultimapower6950 I have an even better idea.
Ask Gamefreak to give him a mega stone.
@@professorhal8098 Mega Aggron already exists.
Dude is literally PURE STEEL, and has Filter. An ability that literally HALVES all Super effective damage!
@@ultimapower6950 wont have stab headsmash
It's good that Shuckle has a niche of having both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock. Not being 4x weak to any type, let alone two of the most common attacking types certainly goes a long way, too.
just think shuckle with 100 hp and its defences, easly ou tier for it defences because of its move pool except for no direct recover except rest.
@@baldrian22 with 100 HP and 200 defenses it is the best mixed wall in the game, what do you mean ou
Shuckle also has shell smash + contrary too boost it's defences into the 2000's.
I have lost games to a shuckle with overwhelming defences. After one shell smash boost, even super effective attacks only do like 20% damage tops and it is free to toxic/rest/Infestation as it pleases. It becomes so defensive that it actually "beats" the bastiodon theorem as it's defence alone does make it powerful.
But it can still be easily beat with a pokemon with taunt or immunity to being poisoned. So it's still not perfect and only works if you catch your opponent off guard. Also a lucky critical hit will probably kill it.
Also if you're feeling particularly evil, you can use a contrary shell smash toxic infestation rest set with chesto but that gets beaten by any inmediately strong water or rock type or literally any magic bounce, magic guard or taunt user so it's just a gimmick
Edit: nvm someone already mentioned the unholy shuckle set
@@baldrian22 In Radical Red its uu just for having 40 hp instead of 20.
It turns it doent have an hp boost. It does get Solid Rock which virtually removes all of its type weaknesses.
Shuckle has stats so minmaxed it is either a secret ultra beast lifeform, a genetic experiment horror, or meta humor.
And this was here in Gen 2. It's mind-blowing that it's designed like that. Even fake 'mon show more restraint.
In those first 2 gens someone at game freak was cooking. Like how chansey with those minmaxed to the fullest stats is one of the first pokemon? And like both shuckle and chansey have something to do with cooking(chansey has an egg and shuckle can make a berry juice), so mastermind behind this minmax even predicted this let him cook meme. Wild
Early Pokemon was more of a Single Player game than a weird chess RPG multiplayer game.
Having weird ultra specialized Pokemon that do ONE THING isn't too bad when you only have to take down 2-3 Pokemon.
Shuckle just got Fuckled because it's a Gen 2 Pokemon and GameFreak is too busy making modern Single Player Pokemon like UBs, Paradoxes and Hisuians busted.
@BaD Remember in gen 1 chansey had base 105 special, and so could hit pretty had as well.
@@jjquinn295 Facts. Gen 1 Chansey is one of the hardest to get in-game and also one of the best in the game if you knew how to play to its strengths.
@@blackpow3r Yeah, the fact that the best Pokemon are the hardest to obtain is intentional. Chansey and Tauros are very rare, Snorlax and the legendaries are limited, Alakazam and Gengar need to be traded.
I love/hate how they had an opportunity to improve Avalugg with a Hisuian form and they somehow managed to give it an even worse defensive typing
Question: Would a steel/ice typing be better than a pure ice typing (since that’s the only other typing I could see Hisuian Avalugg having)
@@mr.penguindrewmateo8146
If hisuian Avalugg had a Ice/Steel typing, then It would have a 4x weakness to both fire & fighting with 2x weaknesses to Ground.
I’m only doing the type match ups for it so if anyone else wants to add more info they can just reply
They also gave it 10 more points to both attack and speed at the cost of SpAtt and SpDef. Negligible overall, so it's odd that they went to the trouble of doing that. I guess it's meant to be a more offensive version so it's a good attacker in Trick Room. But ironically, it would lose to its Kalos form since it gets outslowed and takes more from Body Press.
@@mr.penguindrewmateo8146 i'd say it's better than pure ice at least
though ice is horrible typing together with rock and grass those are bottom of the barrel defensive typings
Ironically, Hisuian Avalugg is the more interesting option in Pokemon GO PvP, since bulk is much more important there (and Hisuian Avalugg's stats in the original games gave it a better distribution of stats in Pokemon GO).
The rock type also helps more than it hinders because it counters its ice-type weakness to fire and threatens back fire types with rock stab. Having rock and ice stab at the same time threatens an impressive number of pokemon in the meta with at least one of those weakness, and also gives a broad neutral coverage to many water and fighting pokemon that would take advantage of Hisuian Avallugg's rock side (it still suffers a lot to deal with steel types, although it´s not totally helpless against them). Rock type resistance to Flying and to Normal is pretty interesting to have too.
Basically, Hisuian Avalugg can fight back much more efficiently its type disavantages in GO because of the mechanics of that game. Not a top tier pokemon, but pretty much usable.
I feel like this is also a lesson of how defense and HP are only good if both are good, since many of these are "high HP but bad defenses" or "high defenses but low HP"
Toxapex has trash hp but amazing defenses and it was essentially the perfect defensive pokemon, so this statement isn't really true
Arguably, shuckle is also a decent pokemon, given they had a legitimate niche in ubers for a not insignificant number of generations. (don't forget shuckle theoretically has the highest attack stat in the game if he wants)
@@Aluberthefunnistreamer yeah but hes also hard carried by Regenerator
That's just a single factor in what can make a Pokemon bad defensively. There's way more to it. I mean, Toxapex itself has amazing defenses but horrible HP. The reason Pex works and not Dusknoir is because it has things that Noir doesn't have that lets it effectively wall. It has an amazing defensive typing with only three weaknesses and EIGHT resists to common offensive types, as opposed to Noir only being pure ghost and resisting very little outside of two immunities, one of which barely matters, and two somewhat mediocre resists.
In addition, Toxapex has access to multiple forms of recovery. The base move itself, Black Sludge for an item, Regenerator for its HA... It can stick around, and even if it leaves it's gonna come back bolstered up. Noir doesn't have any recovery outside of Pain Split which is gimmicky and doesn't work well.
And lastly, it provides valuable utility in not only spreading burns through scald, but a very important trait in having Knock Off, which cripples many pokemon hoping to try and stick in on it. In addition to possibly screwing over opposing walls. All Noir can do is burn. Burning is solid, but it can't do anything otherwise.
Granted Toxapex is in a pretty sore spot nowadays thanks to having many of its tools stripped away, but it still proves how something with high defenses and low HP can work where something else failed. Because it has the means to bolster its defensive prowess, where something else couldn't.
@@Aluberthefunnistreamerthe type is also a huge help
We still need a "Brave Bird Theorem" around Gen 6 Talonflame and explaining how you can have mediocre Attack stat and still terrorize the meta as an offensive powerhouse through the combinarion of other factors.
Dragapult falls into this category too
The other factor being gale wings I wonder what would of happened if it wasn’t nerfed how relevant would it still be
Brave Bird was the least of your worries when talonflame hit the field. As good as priority in that move was Roost with Priority was far more irritating especially with Talonflame spreading Burns with Will-o-Wisp, taunts your utillity Mons and pivots around with U-Turn. Sure Brave Bird was an excellent Lategame move for cleaning the field but not all why Galewings was so strong :P
That's easy though with literally zero complexity: if you're faster than everything then your offensive stats don't matter because slapping on a Choice item completely removes that downside in the most braindead simple manner imaginable. Give literally any pokemon in the game with the most mediocre of attacking stats priority on a high BP move, then they're instantly overpowered and centralize the entire game around them out of sheer bad game design. The typing of the attack doesn't even matter, considering how this happened with a Grass type once (the type that everyone calls ass in terms of offense) and had a similar effect, because this dynamic is just that overwhelmingly broken.
This happened again with Rilaboom with Grassy Glide, then is happening again with Tera Normal Dragonist with Extreme Speed AND Palafin in general. Pokemon's devs used to have a brain via knowing that priority moves need to either not hit hard or have a caveat that can easily be worked around (Sucker Punch), then proceeded to lose that brain and make several generations in a row of seeing the exact reason why those caveats were needed over and over again and never seeming to learn in the dumbest way possible.
@@AshenDust_ I mean it's got 120 Attack and 100 Special attack, that's pretty freaking great with it's only problem is that it doesn't have shadow claw
The much needed sequel to the Rampardos Theorem
Never thought I'd need a sequel
The Shuckle Corollary
The Emboar theorem: why balance isn’t everything
@@IloveHildasfeetGlalie theorem
Ninjask theorem for speed
Squakabilly theorem for abilities
Eelektross theorem for movepool
Shuckle’s case is particularly painful because come Gen 7, Pyukumuku comes to town without a ton of the support moves Shuckle has and no attacking moves and lower defenses, but with a better HP stat, better type and Abilities, and of course, Recover.
the HP stat isn't even shuckle's main issue (except when it faces seismic toss etc.) as it is STILL almost as bulky as friggin Registeel. The problem with Shuckle is .... everything else, basically.
Kaizo Emerald is the single best example of how absolutely terrifying Shuckle would be with just base 80 HP buff. It's ridiculous to break in Kaizo.
“For context, that’s more defense than Deoxys-Attack has Attacking Stats”
That is a wonderful sentence.
Imagine Roark and Byron arguing over which unviable Pokémon is cooler.
Is that even needed, it's clearly the Carnotaurus pokemon not the Shield face pokemon.
@@milonchello1643 Don't you think it looks more like a Pachycephalosaurus?
@@Hammerbruder99 yeah, but my point still stands, even if bastiodon is also based on a cool dinosaur its design is not as cool as rampardos.
That happened in the anime. They bickered over which was better between offense and defense, and they battled each other using Rampardos and Bastiodon. The episode is called "Ancient Family Matters." I won't tell you who won, but it is worth a watch!
@@milonchello1643 Disagree, I think Bastiodon looks way better.
I mean, I still remember these days, when people thought that Toxapex would be garbage because it had low HP. If only they knew…
I remember seeing the datamines for it on the Smogon forums alongside the moves and ability it had a week prior to SM’s release. Some said it would be very good, but I can see those who thought it would be bad due to low base HP and offenses.
people were so naive back then
Knock Off saved it from being passive blob.
Toxapex was annoying because you had to figure out first if it was special or physical defensive. Guess wrong and you lost an item, got scald burned or had layer of Toxic Spikes on your side of the field 🤢👍 fun to deal with... not
@@geometryemperor And before Gen 9, Scald basically let Toxapex get away with free damage while crippling roughly half of the offensive Pokemon, and reliable Toxic and/or Baneful Bunker allowed it to punish opposing walls and attackers pretty easily. And why not slap on a Rocky Helmet to further punish physical attackers while you're at it? Toxapex basically could do no wrong in Gens 7 and 8
And then Gen 9 slapped it in the face and stole everything from it
Definitely needed. For example, there’s Clefable that has 95/73/90 bulk. While it’s not the physically bulkiest, its HP, abilities, recovery and typing make it one of the best walls. Same with Toxapex with its 50/152/142 bulk, type combo, Regenerator and utility.
While Shuckle’s low HP, lack of instant recovery and inadequate defensive typing hold it back. Even Guzzlord that has 223 HP but 53 defenses. Dusclops and Dusknoir also struggle similarly with Shuckle. There’s Hariyama that has 144 HP but despite having below average 60 defenses, it can take at least one neutral hit.
Some Pokémon have one good defense stat but one bad one, such as Great Tusk, and it has decent speed and coverage. One wouldn’t let it switch into a a special attack in most cases.
What matters are basically typing, stat numerics and what utility the Pokémon has.
For Clef, I think that the immunity to passive damage, combined with instant healing and good utility (pretty sure it has one of the biggest movepools in the franchise, with Knock Off being part of it).
It’s durable enough, immune to being whittled by sand or rocks, and it’s unpredictable
@@borby4584Yep, Magic Guard is one of the things that makes it really good to use as a wall and and an attacker thanks to no Life Orb recoil. Plus Unaware and mono Fairy typing.
At the end of the day, Pokemon have to be well-rounded enough, even if they're very specialized, that they can do what they intend to do. Kartana is arguably one of the best attackers in OU history because of its high offenses and speed. But it also has good typing and a good defense stat to let it switch in, as well as decent coverage to not get walled by too many things, as well as an outstanding ability. Deoxys Attack may be the most specialized attacker out there, with an inability to switch into almost any attack thanks to its low defenses and lackluster defensive typing, but because it has very high speed and offenses as well as great coverage, it works (or at least it used to).
Another thing that makes Clefable great defensively is that it also has another good ability in unaware, which has been proven to be great on other Pokemon such as Quagsire most notably, and more recently, Skeledirge. While magic guard is great for immunity to any type of passive damage, there has been at least one generation so far that unaware has been preferred due to it letting it treat set up Pokemon (and possibly even the boost from choice band/specs, if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong here) as though their stats never changed. All this is in addition to it having a good defensive type and solid movepool to work with as well
@@matthewkuscienko4616 Unaware does not ignore the boosts from Specs and Band
To be fair to Avalugg, it’s definitely the best of the mons in the video. Not only is it currently having a great gen with Terastalization, it’s so absurdly physically bulky that neutral hits are essentially resistences, to the point it kinda makes it’s type sorta worth it, especially now with the snow mechanics. It has issues, but it could be much, much worse. *stares at its Hisuian form*
Also heavy duty boots helps avalugg a LOT
Tera ground Avalugg can take a plus 2 close combat in sun from great tusk.
+1 Haxorus did 50% with Close Combat to my Avalugg
Man Ice/Ground was right there 🤦🏾
@@obiwancannoli1920Haxorus's attack is massive so it makes sense. You also probably didn't have max physical defense, or did you?
Game Freak: Let’s make the ice type a very offensive but frail type.
Also Gamefreak: Let’s make all our Ice type Pokémon Defense oriented.
I don't care what you say. Lapras works. Avalugg works.
I will forever hold my Contrary Shuckle with Shell Smash, Toxic, Infestation, and Rest near and dear to my heart. I've crushed so many dreams with that set
Everytime i see that monstrosity of a set i die inside a little
People usually rage quit when I used that back in OR/AS online battles
Gotta love (or hate, for Sinnoh fans) how BOTH of the fossil lines of the generation ended up became the literal definition of tremendously good stats packed alongside horrendously bad typings.
Most people are Sinnoh fans since gen 4 was voted the best gen in like every single vote and if it wasn’t best then it was 2nd best
@@MrMonkey2150 to be fair, Gens 3, 4 and 5 were the peak of old pokemon.
@@kiritotheabridgedgod4178 deffo
I always hated how limiting rock typing was to fossil pokemon, always thought it was kinda dumb they always felt like they had to slap that onto them just because they were fossils originally.
Rampardos' type isn't the problem. It's speed is.
Shuckle outbastiodons Bastiodon in the Bastiodon-Theorem. I love that line
I always referred to Bastiodon as a steel clad Shuckle, so I'm not really surprised by this, lol
Hey at least we finally got an amazing Rock type wall, it only took a minmaxed ability, broken DoT move, HP/DEF/SPDEF all in the 90+, Recover and the ability to ditch Rock as a typing
Lmao, ditching Rock as a defensive type is its best quality as that is the biggest factor holding Garga back
@@breloommaster12 *only factor
The only reason garg is fair is because of the typing lol
@@RockHoward256 I guess now I need to build a Garganacl...
The real bastiodon theorem is the friends we dropped to untiered along the way
😔
One of the biggest problems is a lack of unique defensive moves. Nearly any Pokémon can run a defensive moveset with protect, substitute, rest (or other recovery move) and toxic (at least in older generations). It’s a decent defensive set, but you have to really stand out to use it without being outclassed.
well Body Press is a start
Taunt devours these sets. Subs don't even block Taunt, leading to finding very few opportunities to use Toxic or Rest. Even if you can Rest, it leaves you a sitting duck for two turns that can be capitalized on unless you have Sleep Talk. You should always have at least one attacking move, so you're not complete setup fodder.
One of the best SubToxicProtect mons in the game is ironically Salazzle. That one Pokemon that ISN'T even defensive.
@@GhostbusterPalu you sacrifice 25% of your HP and don't even negate taunt because sub doesn't block it
@@GhostbusterPalu Could be a bit more cordial.
Aegislash being bulkier and basically hits twice as hard than Dusknoir is depressing
Yeah but not at the same time
You've got this massive ghostly behemoth and then a sword and shield wielding itself walks in and decimates it
I have to imagine Zamazenta encapsulates this theorem on the Uber/Restricted level. We're talking about the Pokemon intended to be the "ultimate shield" with amazing defenses and even a decent typing and failing so hard at the job that most of the time if it's used at all it's used purely as an attacker.
The worst part is how Zamazenta had to share in zacian’s Gen 9 nerfs despite doing nothing wrong. At least it got body press.
Seeing Zamazenta use howl as a setup move like a level 7 poochyena was simply depressing to see
If it got body press it would be loads better
They should at least have given it Iron Defense (equal to Zacian's Sword Dance) and made Behemoth Bash scale with DEF. Better yet, give it Cosmic Power, Body Press, and Recover.
The problem about most pokemon with the bastiodon theorem is that:
1. Either they have terrible type combination that can hurt them
2. Low HP base stat which makes the high defenses useless
more like either terrible type combination or lack of movepool / things to do. Shuckle has better effective defenses than deoxys and aegislash if you factor in both it's hp and defense values, the main thing holding it back is not it's low hp stat (something both of those other pokemon also don't have much off). Thing that makes those other pokemon work while shuckle doesn't is the fact that deoxys-defense has recover to reliably keep it topped off while aegislash has ways to threaten the opponent. The central difference is these other mons do things while shuckle has the lowest attack stat in the game, no speed, no good moves etc
We need an Electivire theorem.
Why a jack of all trades isn't always so good
Being a jack of all trades tends to only be good ever if you're also a master of all
Mew has 100s across the board and he's kind of ok (gen 1 non withstanding) , Arceus has 120s across the board and he's Ubers
@@brunop.8745 Arceus and Mew are both backed by their movepools which are as extensive as a movepool gets to be( bar Smeargle's), effectively making them "Masters of all" as you say, if you look at other extremely balanced mons like Silvally you'll notice that their lack of direction causes them to fall off.
@@tehrik0020 you know what, that's a fair point
It's almost never good. Few mons can god mix attack ever since the phys/special split, like dnite and only really in gen 4...
I would say that the Electivire theorem is more about how being able to hit so many different types super effectively doesn't always translate to being a good offensive Pokemon. I would hardly call Electivire a jack of all trades as it's not very durable at all and it's speed and special attack could both arguably be better for an offensive Pokemon
As someone who got their first game when gen 4 came out, i absolutely adored both Rampardos and Bastiodon's designs, and always assumed they were some of the best Pokémon out there. I especially enjoyed carrying my Rampardos around and just destroying everything in-game. I die a little inside every time I'm reminded just how bad they are competitively, though they will always be #1 for me 🙏❤️
Your Rampardos actually got a chance to hit something? Wow.
Either way, don't sweat it. Viability in Competitive multiplayer is not the end-all, be-all of any Pokemon.
what if rampardos and bastiodon did a forbidden fusion dance to combine their abysmal attack and defense stats together…
They'd still be kinda bad because of their collective low Spd and bad defensive typing. Staying in would be a nightmare, but at least they'd be able to take one non-4x super effective hit?
@@sharpeylogic2907 you seem to missing the point, he wants to take Rampardos's Defensive Stats, Bastiodon's offensive stats, and put them into one really bad pokemon. Hence the use of the word Abysmal.
Itd be Wishiwashi
Pokémon Infinite Fusion
Bastiodon/Rampardos from Infinite fusion
HP: 72
ATK: 127
DEF: 96
SPE.ATK: 53
SPE.DEF: 108
SPEED: 48
TOTAL: 504
Rock type
Both movesets
Rampardos theorem and Bastiodon, what more are we going to see? Electrode theorem (Speed isn't everything), Quagsire theorem (bad stats can make a good pokémon), who knows
In the case of the Quagsire theorem that you mentioned, I think a good example of this could very well be Sableye is gen5: prior to then, the only thing it really had going for it was a type combination that had zero weaknesses, but this didn't mean a ton on something with as pitifully low stats as Sableye. But after it got prankster as it's hidden ability, it suddenly became decent and was able to fulfill a niche, even becoming better than the statistically stronger Spiritomb
Marshadow falls in the quagsire theorem as well, 125 attack isn't amazing, but it's techinician + shadow sneak, unresisted STAB combination in any game that he's in, and spectral thief that made Marshadow and absolute monster to deal with
"Why defense isn't everything" proceeds to explain that wiggly is a bad wall because it has no defense
I'm not sure Wigglytuff qualifies for the Bastiodon Theorem - raw stats mean nothing if you have so many weaknesses and no utility, since its key problem is that it DOESN'T have those raw defensive stats, so it can't make use of the utility and typing it HAS.
The thing is that high HP + low defense mons _have_ been used to some capacity in lower tiers before; defensive Hariyama has been the most successful of these high HP/low defenses walls throughout the generations, while Wailord and Guzzlord have had their defensive niches in their respective debut generations of NU due to their good resistances. Heck, Drifblim is one of the best defensive Pokémon of current Gen 9 NU today.
Wigglytuff has NEVER been a successful defensive wall; the most success it ever saw as a bulky Mon was in Gen 2 NU, and Gen 2 had max EVs for all stats so Wiggly's awful bulk, speed, and mediocre defensive typing was less pronounced.
@@breloommaster12 yeah but it really doesn't help that wigglytuff has ALL defensive stats worse than hariyama
Wigglytuff was pretty good in Triples since people often ran 3 intimidates as a lead which would give it +6 special attack with Competitive. Having a tailwind user and Assault Vest to patch its poor bulk meant it did pretty well in certain situations, I certainly had fun with it. I just wish it was useful in Doubles and Singles now Triple Battles are dead
It's funny to me that ice is usually the defensive magic in other RPGs, but it's horrible in Pokemon. They really just need to give ice type more resistances.
Ice needs Fairy resistance.
As a Canadian who loves ice and snow... I agree, it needs more resistances. Thick ice is incredibly resilient, lol.
Elec resistance and dragon
Or just stop making ice types bulky, slow walls. Make them like Weavile, Chien-Pao and Mamoswine (with Ice Shard).
@@MK_ULTRA420Water and Flying resistance
"Why defense isnt everything"
*First example is a pokemon with really low defense*
The funniest thing to me is that Game Freak tried to "fix" Avalugg by giving it a Hisuian Form, but failed spectacularly by shackling it with the Rock typing exacerbating its weaknesses to Fighting and Steel with further piling on the pain by giving it a signature move (Mountain Gale) with a flinch chance that will never see use thanks its atrocious base 38 Speed.
Troll Freak at its best 😅
I suppose they wanted to have it used exclusively as a TR mon, else Mountain Gale makes no sense whatsoever. Then again, why give it extra Speed over standard Avalugg if it's not supposed to use it? Hell if I know, GF sometimes just makes weird stuff and goes with it.
And they gave it strong jaw despite having a whole two moves boosted by it. Not even its signature move, when stuff like Sharpness Kleavor exists. Why did they do this.
"here's why defense isn't everything"
first mon: "wigglytuff sucks because she doesn't have any defense"
As a Mega Aggron enjoyer I disagree with anyone who says it's trash
Defense is everything if being defensive is also very offensive
It’s funny how the prime examples for these theorems is literally just the Gen 4 fossils.
It was about time since the Rampardos theorem
7:13 that’s got me thinking… imagine terrastalizing Avalugg
Now all we need is why speed IS everything and we have the perfect trilogy
The possible "speed isn't everything" video should be called the Electrode Equation.
Is there any chance for future videos like this you could put up the base stats for the pokemon for a bit like you do in the regularly scheduled videos? It would really help, like when you're talking about how bad a pokemon's stats are it would be nice to have seen just how bad they were
Wigglytuff seems like a counter example here. It’s hp is great, but defenses are bad, making it a bad wall. Kind of the opposite of talking about defense isn’t everything
I don't know why, but I'm kinda smelling "Why Speed Isn't Everything - The Electrode Theorem" in a somewhat near future. Nice video BTW, I love this short documentaries about concepts rather than a pokemon itself.
Yeah, high speed isn't everything, Electrode has meager stats, and it's movepool is just dogshit
"Why Speed Isn't Everything" is next i assume. Time for some electrode talk
I'm loving all these Theorem episodes and some ideas people are suggesting. At this point you could open up a False Swipe University with all these lectures about successful (and unsucessful) competitive Pokemon design.
Really entertaining video but extra special shout-out to dustythesnowman, the artist of the thumbnail. That shuckle now lives in my head rent-free
Now we only need a "Why Speed isn't everything: The Electrode Theorem" video to conclude the saga
Except speed honestly is everything. Think of every pokemon that literally only had speed going for them, and they at least had a niche as a hyper offense lead or start of a baton pass chain in the case of speed boosters.
@@kyklous3657
Yeah.
Look at Origin Palkia and Dialga.
They're pretty much universally accepted as an absolutely trash form change, with Dialga being comically bad, but Palkia gets a second look because a slight buff to Speed is worth everything tied up in the garbage form.
Electrode is the only thing in Gen 1 that can safely put a Thunderwave on Mewtwo because it's the only thing that safely outspeeds it. Its speed can win you games even though its base stats really shouldn't. Electrode's problem is its barren movepool more so than its focus on speed and even then, it can still go boom before its opponent can do anything.
Speed is so much more valuable than any other stat in this game, you'd kinda be hard pressed trying to find enough Pokémon that specialize in it and don't use it well to make a list. Jumpluff and Dugtrio, maybe?
@Rainpooper Hisuian Electrode fixes those problems and I can see it being really annoying when it comes to S/V
@@rainpooper7088 Yeah, Electrode had a niche in Gen 1 to paralyze Mewtwo, a niche almost nobody tries to exploit since Mewtwo almost always run Rest. Outside of that, it's always been a mediocre mon. You also have Jumpluff and Dugtrio (save from the times Arena Trap wasn't banned), as you mentioned yourself. You also have Ninjask, being useless out of Baton Pass teams. You also have Salazzle, which is worthless. You also have Jolteon, being one of the fastest Pokémon in the first two Gens, and also one of the worst Eeveelutions ever. You also have Floatzel, who hasn't even been a decent Swift Swim Pokémon until Gen 9. You also have Crobat, Swellow, and even Noivern, whose Speed stats haven't been able to keep them revelant. Hell, even Gen 1 OU King, Tauros, was outclassed in Gen 5 by its bulkier, much slower counterpart Bouffalant. So yes, let me tell you, there's plenty of Pokémon who can't make good use of their Speed.
The Gen 4 fossils, known for pushing the extremes, not only in stats, but also being extremely bad
The Wigglytuff evo line is my fav of all time and it sucks so much that they're not viable at all... I'm quite happy that Scream Tail exists now because it's truly a dream come true, a competitive, viable Jigglypuff!
Well unlike the Virgin Bastiodon, at least Chad Shuckle managed to carve out a niche in Gen 8 Ubers while still being Untiered, now that's a typical Shuckle Stuff
Here's why stats aren't everything: *first example is a pokemon that would have been great if not for bad stats*
Who would've thought a fossil pair of a glass cannon & a stone wall (opposite of a glass cannon) could bring forth theorems around them? Maybe something like the Quagsire theorem and/or Smeargle theorem (which hopefully should be obvious as to its meaning) could be brought forth too for helping to round out viability ways?
Why defense isn't everything: "wigglytuff has terrible defense and can't take a hit"
...did I read the title of the video wrong?
I like how the Shinoh fossils are perfect examples of the competitive scene
In what sense? That almost every pokemon is not viable for competitive multiplayer, and that you should use someone else's team?
Both of Sinnoh's fossils have theorems named after them, must impressive fossils ever
idk if wigglytuff should be in this list, we're talking raw bulk for the theorem, and it lacks bulk
A video about risk assessment vs power of moves would be interesting to delve into. Especially when a bunch of moves had their power nerfed a few gens ago.
Very happy this was added after the Rampardos Theorem! Now it's time for: "Why Speed isn't Everything!"
Love these types of videos! Keep it up!
Whoever is doing the thumbnails is doing an incredible job
Oh yeah, basically like Rampardos Theorem, but with Bastiodon, in other words, being defensive is not always good.
00:51 And just when we thought we were finished with Landorus for a while, he brings him right back up~
The sad irony of Rampardos and Bastiodon being made to encapsulate offense and defense then being memes for being the worst at doing both is sad .
Next up, "Why Speed Isn't Everything- The Electrode Theorem"
Having a Ninjask theorem for speed, and Shedninja theorem for how a broken ability/move/item isn't always enough to cover bad stats, would both be great to eventually see.
And either with Shedninja or separately, something that covers great stat bad mons like Slaking and Silvally would be great too.
Both those are actually solid though.
Shedinja is very meta dependent, but for years was actually excellent in Ubers, as a catch all answer to Kyogre, Xerneas, most Mewtwo, and so on. It could play interesting games around pokemon like Deoxys and Aegislash, and has an interesting pivot role in dealing with Primal Groudon. It's fallen off, mostly because every single new box legendary and their extended family gets built in Mold Breaker, but, them's the breaks.
Ninjask only disappeared because Baton Pass got banned. And to a partial extent because Scolipede is Cooler Ninjask, but even then Ninjask has a few niches over it.
It would still be menacing people if not for that.
Invalid cuz they both had a pretty good niche
Gen IV Fossils: How to suck so bad, both of them have a theorem named after them 🫡
shuckle can be fun when you combine its contrary ability with shell smash.
So, the theorem is supposed to be "just having good defensive stats doesn't make you a great wall", but...
Wigglytuff-- Its main weakness is its low defense and special defense
Dusknoir-- Its main weakness is its low HP
Shuckle-- Its main weakness is its low HP
...Sounds more like the thing letting them down is the defensive stats themselves. I left a like for the research and presentation, which as always were top notch, but compared to the Rampardos Theorem this is a lot more tenuous of a concept
Defensive stats are referring to Def and SpDef here
As rock types go its funny that rock/grass has less weaknesses then either type alone
Ahh yes, the two theorems to rule the universe
Being x4 weak to multiple types is pretty bad for a defensive pokemon
Being Ice type spells your doom as a defensive Pokémon
@@iantaakalla8180Lapras is a very good tank.
We should do a “Slaking Theorem” basically explaining why stats aren’t everything.
If shuckle had just another 30 base hp, it would be muuuch stronger and maybe up to UU
Contrary shell smash sets would be cancer if paired with a magnet pull user. Either the opponents got a perish song trapper, a poison type with recovery, or their magic guard user has to pray shuckle didnt forgo infestation or toxic for gastro acid
Now we need an "Electrode Theorem" for why speed isn't everything.
Electrode is way better than these losers
I’m excited for the Electrode Theorem where just cuz you’re fast doesn’t mean you can do anything lol
Video is called why defense isn't everything. Starts out with a mon that has piss poor defensive stats.
While Carracosta is my favorite fossil by far, I think the Gen 4 duo are my favorite fossil class on average. Partially BECAUSE those absurdist stat blocks make them REALLY fun to use
I think bastiodon and shuckle should be switched, not to be emblematic of the naming of this video, but because shuckle has had legit niches in the OU meta game (I remember it being quite annoying with setting up Sticky Web in gen 6-7 OU while also packing infestation) while Bastiodon has NEVER had such niches
10:17 this is just wrong. Rock is a terrible defensive typing. It has 5 weaknesses, 3 of which are very common (fighting, ground and water). While it only has 4 resistances, 2 of which are common (fire and flying).
It serves if most opponents have normal moves.
@josephbulkin9222 Yeah, but in competitive, almost no mons run normal moves.
Idea: Bibarel Therom: Why Abilities aren't everything
Poor shuckle needs an evolution into a full brewing vat. It wouldn't change defenses or attacks, but it would increase hp and give it an ability that either doubles the effect of berries or converts them into twice as effective juice.
eviolite shuckle would be the real W out of this
@@jameshuntington8644 eviolite power trick Shuckle
495 is pretty high for a BST. If it needs to evolve, it needs to be at most 550 (Ursaring and Bisharp have 500 and 490 BSTs in general and both their evolutions are 550), but it needs to have stats lowered in the process. As most regular Pokémon have BSTs up to 540 save for a few.
FSG knows that competitive Pokémon is a science lol
Please feature next the "Clefable Theorem". It's basically why stats isn't everything. A pokemon that is deemed as mediocre because of its sybpar stats but proved to be otherwise because of the utility provided by its typing, movepool, and ita ability.
Clefable, Nidoking, Breloom, and Scizor, the blue Unaware wall, and Azu are the premier examples.
Ice types in general make me sad, defensive ones just make me despair.
If it makes you feel better I’m thinking of giving Ice resistances to Water and Electric as well as replacing Stealth Rocks with an Electric Type counterpart of it.
Considering avalugg is an iceberg, I think ice/water would’ve been a wonderful type for it. But alas
I'm so high I can't even tell what is going on in the thumbnail
Rampardos can attack, but can do nothing else.
Bastiodon can take hits, but can do nothing else.
Fittingly that these Pokemon are fossil counterparts in Gen 4.
While they were clearly going for "Unbeatable Spear meets Invincible Shield" with the idea. My personal head-canon, is that they're were designed visually to do that, but mechanically wise they were intentionally kneecapped and made un-viable, in order to explain why they went extinct.
gen 4 mons hit when they hit, but when they miss, we get these two and electivire
Tbf, Bastiodon can Toxic, Stealth Rock and Roar which means it atleast has some utility. It's the godforsaken Fighting and Ground quad weeknesses which kills its viability.
@@kurusu1892What's wrong with Electivire? It's the one Electric that gets past the thing I cant stand about Electric types. They usually only Learm Electric moves. While Electivire lears a whole bunch of moves, Physical and Special.
@@josephbulkin9222 look at any of its smogon overviews. the problem with electivire is that its stats are laid out in such a way that it simply cannot excel at anything. it's a physical electric type, meaning that it has to choose between extremely high risk (wild charge/supercell slam), low power (thunder punch) or using its much weaker special attack to do anything, which severely weakens its effectiveness. since it doesn't have any good setup moves, its coverage hits like a noodle even on supereffective hits. it has a lot of coverage options, yeah, but these options suck on it. low base power coverage like ice punch is fine when you have the raw strength to back it up, but electivire's unboostable 123 attack stat simply isn't high enough to get away with it. and even though its abilities seem good, again, its offenses just aren't high enough for a single speed boost from motor drive to let it threaten anything. it's "OU by technicality" in gen 4 as a warning to newer players who are tempted to use it. it's the definition of jack of all trades but master of none.
i think there should be an "electivire theorem-why coverage isn't everything", or on noob bait mons in general (gen 1 machamp, gen 4 electivire/dusknoir, gen 6 ambipom, etc), for mons that seem absolutely incredible on paper, but in execution, just flop.
So your first example of "defense isn't everything" was Wigglytuff who you go on to explain how it excels in every category OTHER than its defensive stats, and thats why it is bad.
it only excels in hp
Bastiodon and Rampardos are so representative of a problem that you even gave the "theorem" their names
They straight up sabotaged gen 4 Fossils
If at least it had come out after they decided to drop the gimmick that every fossil pokemon has to have the -garbage- , i mean Rock type
When was that gimmick dropped exactly? Galar fossils were the last fossils we've had period, and they were clearly exceptions
I feel like Zamazenta needs to be in this list. It's got a decent-ish defensive typing, really good defenses, and a great ability to bolster that. However, it has absolutely zero moves to help it function as a tank and has to resort to being offensive, turning it into a Walmart Zacian. It had no way to capitalize on its defenses, no chip damage, no good setup moves, no recovery, etc. And even then Zacian did a better job as a tank because Fairy/Steel is just that good defensively. And that's not even mentioning that for some crackhead reason Game Freak thought that Body Press, the new Fighting move that scaled off of Defense, should NOT be given to the Fighting type Legendary completely based around Defense. Its only good STAB move was Close Combat, a move that is antithetical to its design and intended playstyle.
Zamazenta also made it painfully obvious how lacking in diversity Fighting type moves are. Almost every move is either some punch, kick, throw, or some other move that really only makes sense on a bipedal or humanoid Pokémon. So the second you have a quadruped Fighting type like Zama, the Swords of Justice, or Paldea Tauros, the only Fighting moves they have access to are Close Combat or a signature move designed specifically for them.
So what would the "speed isn't everything" theorem be called? The deoxys theorem?
Wow they actually used my suggestion
No, Deoxys hits too hard, probably Ninjask
The Electrode Theorem
@@glacierwolf2155 I'd go with Persian Theroum personally. 115 speed is still pretty fast even by today's standards, and it's movepool is something many would envy. But it can't hit hard or take a hit well.
Even the worst of the speedsters can still try to pull off some utility/disruption before they get taken down; even Wugtrio can Memento something before it bites the dust anyway
The speed theorum has too many asterisks.
Take a pokemon, give it tons of speed and nothing else, and someone has figured out SOMETHING good to do with it. It might not be the best, but they're not on the level of Rampardos and Baztiodon.
Ninjask almost is, but that's not because Ninjask is bad, but because Ninjask's thing has been banned.
It'd probably be like UU otherwise, and only UU because Scolipede is Cooler Ninjask
When they name a theorem after you for being so underwhelming 😭 😂
Wow the gen 4 fossils are so iconically bad they have 2 theories based around them
Another great upload! I can't wait for the, "Why Speed isn't Everything" video.