This scene is great because even after the war, Kenshin was never remembered as a "hero/protector of the weak". He was remembered as a killer, and a person to be feared " Battousai the manslayer"
Superlosia Yea. I also like the foreshadow and the irony to everything Kenshin said. Also is it just me or is the Dub Version 100x better, on delivery.
It's more half and half. The dub actor for Seijiro was on point (although the localized script made his dialogue a bit too stern), but Kenshin's dub voice struggles to measure up, as he's trying to perform his lines while trying to sound younger due to Kenshin's age in the flashback.
Judging by the comments, I feel many people have missed the deeper, fundamental point underlying Seijiro's personal philosophy. He wasn't talking about balance. And he was most certainly not talking about being a passive observer who's just "accepting and surrendering" - if he were, he wouldn't be going around randomly executing evil-doers. As Seijiro flatly pointed out, to be a swordsman is to be a murderer, and Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu would make its wielder the most powerful murderer in Japan. Seijiro was arguing that this awful responsibility must be wholly acknowledged and completely borne by the wielder of Mitsurugi-ryu swordsmanship, _alone_ . Seijiro was pointing out - in no uncertain terms - that a Mitsurugi-ryu swordsman who lends his power to either faction would, in effect, be absconding from his _personal culpability_ as a murderer. He wasn't trying to humanise the bandits and evil-doers he'd executed so far. Rather, he was acknowledging that they had responded to the troubled times the only way they knew how: by brutalising other people. So, he too would respond to the times, by paying back the evil deeds in kind. But, at the same time, he accepted _full responsibility_ for all the lives he took. Because he understood the full weight of his actions, Seijiro absolutely refused to make excuses for his deeds. He absolutely refuses to justify any of the murders he's committed by appeals to justice or ideology. To him, such behaviour would not just be an act of vanity, but also morally abhorent. At any point in time, he and he alone has the chance to decide whether or not to swing his sword. It makes no difference what cause he claims to fight for because, in the end, if he were to decide _not_ to strike, someone would be spared. Someone will not die. The swordmaster was thus warning Kenshin - who was too young and inexperienced at the time to appreciate the enormity of his decision - that allowing others to make use of his skills would inevitably tempt him to make excuses for his personal actions. This is an extremely crucial point to understand, because it's one of the underlying causes for Kenshin's lifelong guilt - he had been warned, but he refused to listen, and that made him doubly culpable for all the harm he had wrought. Throughout his time as Battousai, Kenshin tried to convince himself that he was working for the greater good. But, thanks to Tomoe's intervention, he owned up at last to his personal responsibility as a killer - and realised at the same time that he'd never be able to provide an adequate explanation to the families of those he killed. All he could do was to atone, and vow never to kill again. This scene is also crucial for understanding why Seijiro deigned to teach Kenshin in the first place: As a boy, Shinta had unwittingly demonstrated a precocious awareness of the weight of the lives he carried, by not just selflessly burying the three women who lost their lives trying to protect him, but also the bandits and the slave-traders. In Shinta's guileless response to his questions, Seijiro immediately recognised a kindred spirit, and believed he could be a potential successor. Essentially, Seijiro is fiercely arguing that one must carry one's own weight. It is morallly wrong, he believes, to push this weight to others.
I cannot help replying. You made some good points, but I think you have underestimated the strength of Kenshin's position in the last resort. Kenshin may have been young an inexperienced choosing to do what he did, but I would argue that he never really recanted, and much the rest of the series bore out the wisdom of his choice (while of course never flinching with expressing also the dangers of it). The fundamental difference between Seijiro and Kenshin in this confrontation, I would say, is where their hearts are. Seijiro's was in the self, the practitioner of the sword. He was thinking about what a practitioner of the sword ought to do, and so what you said about the moral weight of killing applies - that is the swordsman philosophizing about what a swordsman should do with his power. Kenshin's was in the people, his overriding concern was that people were suffering and in the urgency of alleviating or reducing it by any means possible. The soul of the swordsman may be twisted and blackened if that is what it took. I would argue that Kenshin was never so shallow as to do his battousai work thinking rosily that he was working for the greater good. That was a theory he entrusted to his superior, while he committed himself to merely becoming a killing machine. This was the destruction of the swordsman's soul that Seijiro's wisdom predicted, and Kenshin, to his credit, was willing to pay this price for his philosophy. Tomoe rescued Kenshin from fully sacrificing his humanity to his work, and so he was able to as you say try to atone in a new life of pacifism - but even then he never truly gives up his philosophy. Kenshin teetering on the edge of returning to bloodshed if that is what it takes to save lives is perhaps the major theme of the series. He never "learned his lesson" - he keeps on insistently striding into battle against powerful evil men because he cannot allow them the suffering they inflict, knowing full well his humanity and sanity is on the line every time. And just like Tomoe first did, the relationships he forged with the other main characters in the series kept him human in his sacrificial campaigns. Also, I might as well note here that the translator (though doing a phenomenal job) took some liberty with the translation. Notably where the subtitles said "I want to be their savior!", that is a line that one might take to betray some ambitions of grandeur on Kenshin's part. However, the literal translation from the japanese words is actually a more innocuous "I want to protect them with these hands".
J. Ip I would say that Kenshin's words are wiser. Before I create this youtube profile account of mine. I have encountered many evil people. But I do not know if I can encounter more worst ones. In short. I believe in the concept of "An eye for an eye a tooth fir a tooth".
The lesson within this video is deeper than just "murder is still murder". I wish more people could see it. They'd have a far greater appreciation for this scene if they did.
It's like a father letting his son adventuring in the unknown so he can mature. To this point Kenshin is a innocent kid who doesn't know any better, but he will learn. Awesome anime, filled with archetype characters.
Essentially Hiko wants to tell kenshin: Good intentions aren't enough, murdering people in the name of good intention is still murder, you don't build better world that way.
Arum Indriani 15 year old idealistic kid with pure logic, but with terrifying powers. Anyone like that in kenshin’s position might have done something similar
Bryan Wong I agreed! The origins of both Shinta and Shiro are very parallel. Both of them survived a brutal destruction and rescue by a stoic individual which now views them as a hero and that lead them being ordained and nurture about heroism. And then they were pragmatically warned on those flaws by their mentors, Sejiro Hiko and Emiya Kiritsugu, especially the limits of chivalry/bushido and the advent of the act utilitarianism. Later, they both participated in wars (civil wars of the Meiji Restoration and Holy Grail War) to protect the innocent bystanders and the people they love only to lose them.
@@whathell6t what happens later the Meiji war and the in the UBW route, both kenshin and shirou grew and matured They realized they cannot save everyone, but they still persevered and did their best to save as many as possible.
What's ironic is that both of the men in this scene could be called idealistic. Kenshin believes that power should be used to protect the innocent, while his mentor, Hiko, has idealitic views on sworsmanship. He doesn't want Hiten Mitsurugi style to be blemished by the war, yet he himself admits that swordsmanship is a tool of murder. He spent his whole life learning Hiten Mitsurugi, to teach his student only for him to never use it? There is a clash between Kenshin's and Hiko's ideologies, but there is also an inner clash within Hiko about the purpose of his art. Otherwise he would've never allowed Kenshin to go. Kenshin seemed to understand it, that's why he thanked his teacher.
The same story of children who ignore and ridicule their parents' logic, only to understand it years after, living with regret, only to see their children do the same to them.
I honestly think it's an inevitable cycle for the most part. The reason for children's (and Kenshin's) stubbornness is because they have never experienced it. Parents and Hiko want to protect their charges, but in the end didactic words can only have so much meaning. In the end there is no way to understand things like suffering, war, and politics until such poor idealists go out there themselves. Ultimately I feel like both master and pupil have both valid and invalid arguments; Kenshin will see how cruel and cold the outside world can be, but Seijuro Hiko, whose a bitter hermit, should honestly have understood how such isolation can easily narrow people's perspectives.
@@geocross237 Very well said. I daresay all that isolation has stunted Hiko's empathy and humanity. He's pretty much _clinical_ in his description of man.
Well, humans are born this way. They can't truly learn until they experience, that's all there is to it. We are made this way to do mistakes but some, very rare people overcome this genetic problem. Nature vs nurture Which will you choose? Most people without thinking choose nature over nurture and by nature humanity is stupid.
I love how honest the scene is. Breaking down the entire idea of "the hero who protects the weak" to "someone who kills for what he belives to be good". Swordmanship is a tool for killing really strikes at the concept of ideals vs reality that was a keyconcept in the original manga,
to protect the weak while not killing the opposing team. i can see why Kenshin wants Peace so badly. But unfortunately....reality is....that is never going to happen.
@@dannylin5980 in the original manga Kenshin said something akin to it, calling a swordstyle meant bot to kill "a child's dream". He then points out that the childish dream is much prefrable to the grim reality.
@@dannylin5980 And also you kinda missed the point, what Hiko Seijuro means is that murder is still murder, by working with the imperialists, Kenshin will lose a part of his morality and will be divided into two different personas, because of the behavior of trying to justify the act of murder, it's an act of vanity and morally abhorrent, for Hiko Seijuro, he doesn't mean that he should not protect the people who are being oppressed, he just means that we must accept the responsibility on the act of killing and bear the weight of it, Kenshin at his time working for the imperialists tried to convince himself that he did it for the greater good until Tomoe finally woke him up, the act of that murder was never for the greater good, because if it is, then both sides must end at peace but that's not exactly the case, one side ends up with despair, violence and hate...
Seeing this in the context of modern day politics, this makes a lot of sense. Many impassioned young people, without much knowledge of the world, go and join radical political movements to change the world, not realising that they themselves are being used as pawns by nefarious forces, and are actually creating more harm than good. "They (the men I killed) were all human beings trying to live their lives in the only way they knew how." Nothing drives home the point quite more than this. Even people who have different viewpoints from us; who see the world in a different way, are also human beings like us, with a shared humanity.
Precisely. Couldn’t have said it better. Too many people follow group identities and political ideologies so much so that they don’t realize those things smother your own individualism. I would never think of a person less than a human merely because they’re republican or democrat. Young people will be naive and join these movements without realizing that they are being used in order to promote that very movements agenda. Like I don’t judge soldiers that go off to war to protect their family and country of course. But a lot of them don’t know the whole truth. I would tell them to prepare themselves, because in order to survive you’re gonna have to do some pretty dark things, you’re gonna have to step into the evil side of yourself and become a murderer…And if you do survive, it’s very possible that even if you do tell yourself that you did it for the greater good…that excuse won’t be enough for you to live with yourself day in and out, you might feel like it won’t be enough for you to justify the actions you committed. That’s why so many soldiers come back as not the same person before, or broken and commit suicide. That’s the exact dishonor that Kenshin saw in what he had done and made him never want to kill again.
Seijiro was wise enough to stop trying to convince Kenshin after exchanging a few words, he would not see reason since he was so green. He must have experience it first hand to understand... Trial by Fire. This is really a good conversation as an example between an experienced and unexperienced ones.
Hiko's teaching is useful to prevent personal guilt and PTSD in soldier. Hiko taught kensin to be agent of his own, not for other people. Thus taking the responsibility for his own actions. Even in democratic society, people use voting, which is the sound of majority. Things like this is what caused lack of personal responsibility, because it is the sound of the crowd & not the sound of your conscience.
@@raulbetancourt5795Hiko's teaching is based on a master swordsman with their own conscience protect the weak by their swords. Whether the swordsman choose to take action or not, choose to kill or simply injure their enemies, it would be their own decision, not because of an order from someone with power. That is why every Hiten Mitsurugi swordsmen before Kenshin had never took part in wars.
The general thrust of what Hiko is saying is that good intentions are worthless, what matters is what you do and you can't be foolish about why you're doing it. Kenshin believes that it's as simple as "Kill the bad guys, everyone lives happily ever after" but Hiko knows how much messier and infinitely more complicated it is. He didn't want Kenshin to pick a side, he wanted Kenshin to protect the innocent, no matter what 'side' they were on. He didn't want Kenshin to fight for someone else's 'justice', he wanted Kenshin to walk a path where he wouldn't be used, but Hiko realized that pain was the only teacher that would get through to him. He knew almost to the letter what would happen. Kaoru and the gang surprised him though, it showed that Kenshin finally understood how he fucked up and was ready to actually be of some good to the world, that's why Hiko consented to finish Kenshin's training.
To put a sharper knife to this statement. It's not so much doing good as it is making a choice for himself rather than being guided by other large powers. Kaoru and Yahiko were able to show Hiko that Kenshin helped people on his own volition. Hiko realized that Kenshin changed and that he was finally making choices for himself and bearing the responsibility of those choices by himself, this is why Hiko continued the final part of his training.
@@0doublezero0 exactly. there are page long comments overanalyzing this but in the end its as simple as that the master didnt want kenshiro to join a side and murder in the name of someone elses justice or maybe even for their gain. Its murder even if he intends to save people and if he murders he has so do it by his own decision unaffected by the moralities/agendas of the 2 opposing parties. But the master is confident that Kenshiro will be forced to pick a side.
Kenshin said the same words in the first episode of rurouni kenshin about swordsmanship and that miss kaorus words are just sweet ornamental words..... But he even acknowledged that he prefered those sweet words
'İf you leave this mountain, you will live a life of murder under the direction of men who write their own justice.' Hiko was right. Kenshin realized that too late.
@@RuiLuzhow does kids should live these days? Become a politically passive? Isn't that how power becomes corrupt? Power is not evil, it becomes one when every one acknowledge it.
Hiko knew what he was trying to explain to Kenshin, would reach deaf ears. The only way Kenshin would learn, was from experience. Kenshin honestly thought he was doing good, but only realized after the war was over, that the very lives he was trying to save was a contradiction. For the families of all the men he killed, viewed him now as a mass murderer.
In the end, the rurouni resolution to protect those that the eyes can see was the wisest;not being a weapon to the goverment or staying secluded with his master.Protect,with all your might,the ones you love and care.
1:00 "Swordsmanship is a method of murder, do you understand?" . same words Kenshin said to bandits attacking Kaoru's dojo, however he added how he prefers Kaoru's philosophy more over the truth
years later these words hit kenshin so hard that he knew his master all right after all, a pure sensitive kid like kenshin should not go to war coz he know sins and regrets would come after him after he sees what war it's all about and would made him depressed, and he need to kill more, and more, and more, and more to achieve the goal - too much weight on his shoulder. there's a proverb of a warrior that just like hiko and kenshin relationship between master and a student. - “a student asked to his master: "You teach me fighting but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: " It's better to be warrior in garden than to be a gardener in war.
@@deviljon I didn't like that quote. You can't decide what is right or what is truth, no one can. Even science constantly changes. You can't know the absolute truth, you can just try to get close to it. Imagine hurting or even killing a lot of people just for the sake of your beliefs, the things you thought that were the absolute truths, and then realizing you were wrong. Power is meant to be used to protect, not to hurt and destroy.
Originally he had taken him for teaching how to protect those close to him he lacked the power to protect as in those women who shielded him against bandits. But he ended up wanting to use that power to save all others without realizing there's no saving everyone but only the people on one side while taking the lives of people on the other side. Once he found that out from hard experience, he then went back to the original goal of his master: Saving those closest to him.
He also didn't want the pain of losing loved ones, so he moved from place to place, never staying in a place for long for connections. It's only until he meets Kaoru that he stays long.
In the midst of comments and interpretations of Hiko's teachings, a succinct way of clearing things up would be to stick with Hiko's words and logic when he warns Kenshin of what will happen if he leaves his training, which might go like this: 1. A sword is a murder weapon. 2. Swordsmanship is the art/technique of killing/murdering. 3. To protect people, a swordsman has to kill others. 4. To save all people, a swordsman has to murder (at least) some people. 5. The above two axioms state the true/final principle of (all) swordsmanship. 6. I have murdered hundreds of people, but they were all human beings. 7. These people were [living their lives the only way they knew how]. 8. If you leave [your training], you will live your life as a murderer [under the direction of men who write their own justice]. 9. If you [throw in your lot with them], your swordsmanship will make you a mass murderer. In this series, both Kenshin and his master have clearly stated Hiten Mitsurugi's core principle to protect the innocent via swordsmanship. However, one key difference between the two swordsmen during this movie arc is that, in short, Hiko stayed closer to that core principle to protect the innocent by choosing to remain neutral as a hermit, whereas Kenshin initially strayed from that core principle, even though he wanted to save many people, by choosing to make himself vulnerable to wholeheartedly choosing a side of the national conflict, i.e. the Ishin Shishi, and systematically killing enemies in their opposition, i.e. the Shogunate forces, as their chief assassin, the Hitokiri Battōsai. In short, both Kenshin and his master are mass murderers by Hiko's definition, but a key difference between them point to the different moral, social, and political implications that emerge as they live out their own interpretations of the Hiten Mitsurugi. Kenshin would later come to better understand his master's teaching and adopt a neutral position himself as a rurouni. However, Kenshin's lesson came at a heavy price, via his tragic past as a mass murderer, along with its consequences, that would haunt him for a long time, in the form of his past occupation/title/persona/life, the former Himura (Hitokiri) Battōsai of the Ishin Shishi.
The tragedy of this scene is that Kenshin only realizes what Hiko is trying to tell him after losing Tomoe. In a sense, Kenshin became the same evil he wanted to protect people from.
When I was 16 yrs old and decided to join party politics to "fight for the oppressed people", I was quite bit like Kenshin. Now that I'm 40, I wish I had a wise mentor like Seijuro Hiko back then, someone who could explain me why I was being foolish and wouldn't achieve my goals following the path I had decided to follow. So I had to learn the hard way that wherever politics are involved, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the power in itself. No matter how good and beautiful words or ideals they use to masquerade their real intentions, when stuff goes down the leadership, the conquest and maintenance of power is the real thing, just as Machiavelli pointed out 500 yrs ago. If I had a clue on this simple reality, I wouldn't have spent so many years of my life with engagement and study just to help elect people as bad as those we used to fight against. Or even invest my time in those activities, but having a realistic, honest approach from the very beginning. And time, as Seneca used to say, is the most valuable thing in this physical life. Now I can understand the weight that massacres Kenshin's conscience, because he not only spent his time to be used by bad people; he also took many lives in the process. In fact, to make a positive difference in this world isn't that difficult, it's not rocket science and doesn't require monstruous efforts as youngsters believe very often. Just be a decent human being, caring for those who are next to you and doing your best. For a legendary sword master like Hiko, the best way to make difference was slay bad people he faced; for us it may start by making our own bed, saving our mother's effort and health. Like me, Kenshin spent many years in efforts and sufferings, living a depressing and lonely life just to learn this simple truth, taught by many masters throughout human existence. But it's never too late to learn good stuff and change your direction for the better.
I still like ambition though, if only for the sake of education and evolution, rather than power. I'm 38, studied the better part of my life to become better at my craft, and will continue to do so. I respect only technical skill, not so much politics or fake achievements, achieved on the back of others.
So nicely crafted. I too had similar thing in a minor fashion and i realised they were all the same set of people seeking power on way or another, i was just one of many fooled because of youth nativity.
i enjoy the japanese version better because when voice actor of Seijuro Hiko makes his speech about how all swordsmanship ultimately produce murder, it sounds very poetic. Like the words are rolling off his tongue.
Every word from Hiko became reality. The tragic inevitable path of his baka pupil. Kiritsugu and Shirou, heck let’s throw Arturia in as well, should have consulted with Hiko prior to their journey to become hero/saviour
Thinking about it Kenshin as Battosai was pretty similar to EMIYA archer, both were used as killing machines to maintain a status quo, which made them numb.
what Hiko was trying to say is that taking sides isnt the Mitsurugi's philosophy, help those in sights, the ones you feel right to protect and fight for.
I always need to come back and see this fragment and even if it's at different years, this speech always sound like it's talking about the current state of the world...
The biggest mistake in Rurouni Kenshin was not using this entire scene when Kenshin and Hiko Seijuro have a flashback about Kenshin's immature decision. The scene used in Rurouni Kenshin just missed too much. This scene perfectly explains the entire journey of Kenshin seeking justice and why he was remembered as a manslayer rather than a lifesaver.
"Swordsmanship is a method of murder. You can decirate it with all sorts of pretty words. But that is what is." Sound to this day. Wish the world is as smart as this quote.
Hell yeah! Considering Hiko Seijuro is the most pivotal character of the Series. He is after all the reason a scared boy named Shinta became Himura Kenshin and subsequently Densetsu no Hitokiri Himura Battousai. I love you, Hiko-sama!!!
I love both the English and the Japanese version of this scene. These subtitles are closer to what they are saying in Japanese but the English version, while having subtle differences, was equally poetic and powerful.
I have watched trust and betrayal probably 10-15 times and I cannot believe not once was sub, but hey that gives me another reason to rewatch multiple times over the years
Funny that when I first watched this OVA YEARS ago, when i was still a young adult I thought id'd myself with Kenshin's POV. Now that I'm older I think Hiko is right. Funny thing this growing up deal.
Same here. Saw this over 17 years ago. Two wars later and after teaching many to surgically “incapacitate” at various distance I can’t agree with kenshin anymore
This might sound corny, but as a 35-year old I do not regret...anymore. To regret means to deny all the experiences that shaped me. If I didn't have those experiences, I wouldn't be me. How I choose to respond determines my character.
@@edwardgaines6561 And what if I don't like how I turned out to be? Better said, what if I knew I grew up wrong, what if I'm completely aware I met the wrong people, gave them so much of myself that I feel I can't evolve as a person at all due to a feeling of being "stuck"? I have wasted so much time and energy, I do have regrets. A lot.
@@NeoGamemaster I have regrets too. But having no regrets is the biggest regret of them all. That would mean you made no mistakes. I wish I had gone into the military, instead of college back in the 2000s, before the Recession. But oh well. If you feel you are "emotionally stuck," you might be suffering from arrested development. You're stuck at a certain age mindset, and can't move forward.
This is still one of the most awesome scenes ever after all these years. I do love the English Dub for this scene as well. Shūichi Ikeda and Joe York knocked it out the park as Hiko for this.
Kenshin was 13 when this happenned, easily brainwashed by the Imperials ... Hiko was basically saying this : "I'm okay with you killing evil people. What I'm not okay is that you do not know that those evil people were also victims, both sides are and you become a puppet by whoever you side with." What sad is that Kenshin spent the next decade with PTSD because he didn't listen to his master.
1:00 translation is off. Its a great part of the speech too. He said "A sword is a weapon, Swordsmanship is a technique for murder". Rough translation but pretty much the mai idea. Love that part
The visual contract between Kenshin at 1:40 and 1:47 has to have been a deliberate choice; and it perfectly represents Kenshin's youthful idealism versus Hiko's grim warning of how things would turn out.
He's not saying that Kenshin shouldn't kill people, only that he should acknowledge the responsibility that it brings, and he should do so according to his own morals, not letting others decide for him by chosing to serve one of the two factions. Hiko killed a lot of people after all, but did so of his own accord, knowing he'd be responsible for taking the life of any man he has struck down.
Anime has really changed, very rare to see a good mature anime. mostly these days some crappy school shit or a chosen guy with super power vs evil world.. Even kenshin's series its not compareable to this beatiful kenshin OVA
I still prefer the Kenshin anime to these OVAS, as they are overly dramatic. Gone is the lighter tone in certain moments, which existed because Kenshin is a dork at the end of the day. I read the manga, and Kenshin has a couple of moments like this, when he meets Tomoe. Even so, there are really great scenes in these OVAS. This one, for starters and when the Shinsengumi ambushes the Isshin Shishi is an amazing moment.
I'm a Idiot so I dont always really understand things like this, but what I do understand: He is basically telling Kenshin what happen during the bakumatsu.
Kenshin was so naive....i'm feel sorry for him. He learn the world is sick and twisted the hard way. "If you leave this mountain, you will live a life of murder, under the direction of men who writes their own justice." Fuck...that hits fucking hard.
Kenshin was indeed naive but he wasn’t in the complete wrong per say. In a way they both had good intentions. It’s just that Kenshin didn’t see how he was gonna be manipulated by the government. It’s like if a soldier leaves to go fight for his country. Honestly I wouldn’t shame him for wanting to protect innocent people but he should also be prepared to know that he’s going to have to step into the dark side of life in order to survive. He’s going to become a full on murderer, and afterwards even his excuse that he did it for the greater good won’t be enough for him live with day in and out or to justify himself. He’ll likely question his sanity when he returns, he’ll question every thing he did. Thus the quote “it’s either you die a hero or live long enough to watch yourself become the villain” or I guess the quote from Leonardo DiCaprio movie Shutter Island where he says “which would be worse? To live as a monster or to die a good man?”
@@thierrytg.3921 well as they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" so whether he or the society thinks he is in the wrong or not, matter of fact he did unleashed sufferings to other people. And i respect him for acknowledging that and choose the thorny and tedious path to attone for his sins, whether if his victims forgives him or not. At least he was self aware of what he was and what he became. It's a tragedy. But Kaori really saves his soul in the end, his attonement. And she gave him a legacy to be remembered, she gave him her love and a child. I dunno if he deserved that, since his victims or their families don't even get a chance to have that luxury, but he really did his best.
@@tuahsakato17 Right. That’s precisely what Hiko was trying to teach him. That there’s no excuse for murder, both sides take actions that are in their best interest and murder for that cause. There may be a little more good or a little more evil in either one of those sides but regardless its all the same. That’s why Hiko said “as you know I’ve killed hundreds of evil-men” but at the same time he doesn’t try to justify that anymore. Definitely agree, Kenshin did his best to turn over a new leaf and to live a life of atonement. He didn’t try to make excuses either, he fully accepted and dubbed his actions under the sole single word of “murder”. I bet if Kenshin were a real life person he wouldn’t have felt like he deserved that happy ending but all the same he knew it was a burden he had to live with because taking his own life would just be the easy way out. But honestly it’s a way more realistic and honest story than Kenshin being a hero who never did any wrong. In the end he found his own way of the sword to live by.
People have always been and will be stupid victims of deceit and self-deception until they learn to distinguish the interests of certain groups of people behind certain words.
Coming back to watch this clip after watching the new ep of the remake makes me understand about how warriors should be. Not a hero. Not a villain. But a living being trying to do what's right and accepting the outcomes, whether glorious or tragic.
So beautiful and deeply meaningful. Wise words with a heavy responsibility. I simply enjoy this wisdom and what it entails upon those who follow upon it. It’s the truth of a harsh reality
Thanks for the upload. Ruroken is one of my favorite animes. The Japanese dialogue was very moving. I also really dig all the comments on this video. I think that both Hiko and Kenshin had valid points of view. Hiko thought it best to stay out of the politics of the time and that the combative skills of the Hiten Mitsurugi style were best use to protect the innocent and weak detached from governmental influence. Hence why he saved young Shinta(Kenshin). However Kenshin was not incorrect in his desire, urge, and need to make a difference. To quote the dub version...I want to bring relief to those who have learned to live without hope. Kenshin's tragic error was that he thought that using the deadly and efficient combat skills of the Hiten Mitsurugi styles was the only way to accomplish his goals.
Having ideas like this put into my thoughts as a 10 year old made me into a dramatically better person than I would have been otherwise. Hiko really is a great mentor
Shishio, pre charred betrayal; clip battousai if You ask me. Kenshin wasnt good enough without learning the amakakeru ryu no hirameki to face a charred version of shishio wich was still an outstanding swordsman so far. Kenshin would ve failed on taking out shishio, no matter his great talent as battousai back then. Kenshin had a blessed ride despite learning things the hard way, the Best mentor, best friends post battousai era, two pivotal broads who made him return to his senses, one interveeneing at the right moment and another for good. Shishio in his prime was a beast, though. Had Kenshin not succeed against him, wether it was pre charred or Kyoto arc, one thing was sure, Hiko Seijuro Jusandai clip him. Period 🙃
@@nathaninostroza7655Not really,.If Kenshin wasn’t using a reversed blade then, Shisio would have been slayed in the first hit. Not to mention the blade also undermines his technique since it’s off balance due to its counter weight.
@@biterness2323 point taken. Now a thing both got to deal with, having regular blade, since pre Kyoto arc Shishio didnt had the Mugen Jin either, it all boils down to who could lay the first cut. And both were so skillfull, so we can't predict that for sure. In Hiko s case, it's a safe bet, since he s, even during the Kyoto arc, a high end fast attacker, unsurpassed, according to Watsuki. Both Kenshin and Shishio meant business in their hittokiri days, so it wouldnt be a duel, but a slash first-no mercy kinda encounter. What i'm saying is that i wouldn't sleep on Shishio s talent for murdering and swordsmanship. So i can't bet on Kenshin against Shishio lightly.
@@nathaninostroza7655 We can because Shisio was already got hit several times by Kenshin’s blows. If it was a real blade most of his opponents would have been slain just like that from the first blow. Kenshin is a really skilled swordsman and in this show he has been basically gimping himself the whole time and yet still kept winning against all the odds. That just proves how much of a gap there is between him and his opponents despite the fact that those opponents of his were also very elite fighters.
Kuzu ryu sen is enough to one shot all those opponents he fought if he used a real blade. Not to mention since he used a reverse blade against all his opponents they have acquired and passed on the knowledge on hiten mitsurugi ryu in order get a leverage against his technique. Even this wouldn’t have been possible if he used a real sword since all of them would have been dead, making them unable to pass on information.
Este discurso é genial, gostaria de que todos os amantes de anime pudessem ver esta obra que foi feita com tanto carinho e capricho, com certeza o melhor anime que ja assisti
Go down there. Brand yourself a murderer. Murder is the only art a swordsman can practice. No ornamental word can change that. You want to protect people with murder? You will slaught a legion so that a few may live.
It is sad how in the manga, the change is epically visible (when he takes his cape off, he waves his arm and everything around just explodes on a wave of energy xD) and in the anime, he just threw it aside... and gave a death glare to kenshin, enough. It's sad how they didn't show how powerful he is in reality
Interesting that Hiko's line about how swordmaship is killing actually are repeated in the first chapter of the series when Kenshin says that but he prefers Kaoru's take on that.
“He is following his own principles and ideas…because he is pure…” Kenshin Himura was my first crush when I first saw and collected the manga! Because yes, Kenshin had the worst backstory growing up. And yes, he admitted he had to stain his hands with blood. He simply wanted to protect those he failed to protect and gave him another chance at life. And when the highlight of the war came to a climax he disappeared. Kenshin has seen it all. Has done it all, have plenty of nightmares and knows he has a lot to answer for when his time comes. But he left SO much hope for the next generation. That is how he became immortal to me. “Anyone can die. But living…that takes an awful amount of courage.”
Years later, Tomoe said the same thing about kenshin, that he was too pure of heart. And years years later, Kenshin said the same thing Seijuro had taught him when he first met Kaoru, that kenjutsu is an art of killing, no matter how much pretty words you decorate it with, it is still the truth. That coming full circle hits so hard.
This scene is great because even after the war, Kenshin was never remembered as a "hero/protector of the weak". He was remembered as a killer, and a person to be feared " Battousai the manslayer"
Superlosia Yea. I also like the foreshadow and the irony to everything Kenshin said. Also is it just me or is the Dub Version 100x better, on delivery.
Master Chief nah I felt like the dub was pretty emotionless and I love the dub for the actual series
It's more half and half. The dub actor for Seijiro was on point (although the localized script made his dialogue a bit too stern), but Kenshin's dub voice struggles to measure up, as he's trying to perform his lines while trying to sound younger due to Kenshin's age in the flashback.
The way people pronounced Kenshin in the dub made me cringe so hard
Hiko was right all along
Judging by the comments, I feel many people have missed the deeper, fundamental point underlying Seijiro's personal philosophy. He wasn't talking about balance. And he was most certainly not talking about being a passive observer who's just "accepting and surrendering" - if he were, he wouldn't be going around randomly executing evil-doers.
As Seijiro flatly pointed out, to be a swordsman is to be a murderer, and Hiten Mitsurugi-ryu would make its wielder the most powerful murderer in Japan. Seijiro was arguing that this awful responsibility must be wholly acknowledged and completely borne by the wielder of Mitsurugi-ryu swordsmanship, _alone_ .
Seijiro was pointing out - in no uncertain terms - that a Mitsurugi-ryu swordsman who lends his power to either faction would, in effect, be absconding from his _personal culpability_ as a murderer.
He wasn't trying to humanise the bandits and evil-doers he'd executed so far. Rather, he was acknowledging that they had responded to the troubled times the only way they knew how: by brutalising other people. So, he too would respond to the times, by paying back the evil deeds in kind. But, at the same time, he accepted _full responsibility_ for all the lives he took.
Because he understood the full weight of his actions, Seijiro absolutely refused to make excuses for his deeds. He absolutely refuses to justify any of the murders he's committed by appeals to justice or ideology. To him, such behaviour would not just be an act of vanity, but also morally abhorent. At any point in time, he and he alone has the chance to decide whether or not to swing his sword. It makes no difference what cause he claims to fight for because, in the end, if he were to decide _not_ to strike, someone would be spared. Someone will not die.
The swordmaster was thus warning Kenshin - who was too young and inexperienced at the time to appreciate the enormity of his decision - that allowing others to make use of his skills would inevitably tempt him to make excuses for his personal actions.
This is an extremely crucial point to understand, because it's one of the underlying causes for Kenshin's lifelong guilt - he had been warned, but he refused to listen, and that made him doubly culpable for all the harm he had wrought. Throughout his time as Battousai, Kenshin tried to convince himself that he was working for the greater good. But, thanks to Tomoe's intervention, he owned up at last to his personal responsibility as a killer - and realised at the same time that he'd never be able to provide an adequate explanation to the families of those he killed. All he could do was to atone, and vow never to kill again.
This scene is also crucial for understanding why Seijiro deigned to teach Kenshin in the first place: As a boy, Shinta had unwittingly demonstrated a precocious awareness of the weight of the lives he carried, by not just selflessly burying the three women who lost their lives trying to protect him, but also the bandits and the slave-traders. In Shinta's guileless response to his questions, Seijiro immediately recognised a kindred spirit, and believed he could be a potential successor.
Essentially, Seijiro is fiercely arguing that one must carry one's own weight. It is morallly wrong, he believes, to push this weight to others.
J. Ip nicely said. Well done
Beautifully put.
I cannot help replying. You made some good points, but I think you have underestimated the strength of Kenshin's position in the last resort. Kenshin may have been young an inexperienced choosing to do what he did, but I would argue that he never really recanted, and much the rest of the series bore out the wisdom of his choice (while of course never flinching with expressing also the dangers of it).
The fundamental difference between Seijiro and Kenshin in this confrontation, I would say, is where their hearts are. Seijiro's was in the self, the practitioner of the sword. He was thinking about what a practitioner of the sword ought to do, and so what you said about the moral weight of killing applies - that is the swordsman philosophizing about what a swordsman should do with his power. Kenshin's was in the people, his overriding concern was that people were suffering and in the urgency of alleviating or reducing it by any means possible. The soul of the swordsman may be twisted and blackened if that is what it took. I would argue that Kenshin was never so shallow as to do his battousai work thinking rosily that he was working for the greater good. That was a theory he entrusted to his superior, while he committed himself to merely becoming a killing machine. This was the destruction of the swordsman's soul that Seijiro's wisdom predicted, and Kenshin, to his credit, was willing to pay this price for his philosophy.
Tomoe rescued Kenshin from fully sacrificing his humanity to his work, and so he was able to as you say try to atone in a new life of pacifism - but even then he never truly gives up his philosophy. Kenshin teetering on the edge of returning to bloodshed if that is what it takes to save lives is perhaps the major theme of the series. He never "learned his lesson" - he keeps on insistently striding into battle against powerful evil men because he cannot allow them the suffering they inflict, knowing full well his humanity and sanity is on the line every time. And just like Tomoe first did, the relationships he forged with the other main characters in the series kept him human in his sacrificial campaigns.
Also, I might as well note here that the translator (though doing a phenomenal job) took some liberty with the translation. Notably where the subtitles said "I want to be their savior!", that is a line that one might take to betray some ambitions of grandeur on Kenshin's part. However, the literal translation from the japanese words is actually a more innocuous "I want to protect them with these hands".
J. Ip I would say that Kenshin's words are wiser. Before I create this youtube profile account of mine. I have encountered many evil people. But I do not know if I can encounter more worst ones. In short. I believe in the concept of "An eye for an eye a tooth fir a tooth".
that's an A grade essay right there. I wish I could wrote like you
It is a conversation between a mature man and a teenager.
What a masterpiece.
"Swordsmanship is a method of murder. You can decorate it all you want, but in the end, that's all it is."
BlackWingedSeraph actually its the famous quote of Okita Souji!
The aithor got inspired!
The original line at end was SO GOOD, Hiko turns away and says "It is foolish to listen to someone who will not listen to you"
"Do as you wish, go to them"
This movie has some quite heavy and deep philosophy and truths. Much more than most movies, whether live action or animated.
The lesson within this video is deeper than just "murder is still murder". I wish more people could see it. They'd have a far greater appreciation for this scene if they did.
It's like a father letting his son adventuring in the unknown so he can mature. To this point Kenshin is a innocent kid who doesn't know any better, but he will learn. Awesome anime, filled with archetype characters.
Congrats, the Live Action realease with title Rurouni Kenshin the beginning
Agree with this
Essentially Hiko wants to tell kenshin: Good intentions aren't enough, murdering people in the name of good intention is still murder, you don't build better world that way.
I think you missed the point a little tho
@@elgranhermano8872 nah i think he got it.
@@elgranhermano8872 he's also right, trying to stop a perpetual thing that exists will cost your morality.
All you can do with a blade is stop the more vile faction currently in strife from winning. The blade is not what creates the future you desire.
Yes it will
15 years old idealistic kid with pure logic and tragic life. can't blame him
Arum Indriani 15 year old idealistic kid with pure logic, but with terrifying powers. Anyone like that in kenshin’s position might have done something similar
Remember a certain teen called shirou emiya? He is also the same
Bryan Wong I agreed! The origins of both Shinta and Shiro are very parallel. Both of them survived a brutal destruction and rescue by a stoic individual which now views them as a hero and that lead them being ordained and nurture about heroism. And then they were pragmatically warned on those flaws by their mentors, Sejiro Hiko and Emiya Kiritsugu, especially the limits of chivalry/bushido and the advent of the act utilitarianism. Later, they both participated in wars (civil wars of the Meiji Restoration and Holy Grail War) to protect the innocent bystanders and the people they love only to lose them.
@@whathell6t what happens later the Meiji war and the in the UBW route, both kenshin and shirou grew and matured
They realized they cannot save everyone, but they still persevered and did their best to save as many as possible.
What's ironic is that both of the men in this scene could be called idealistic. Kenshin believes that power should be used to protect the innocent, while his mentor, Hiko, has idealitic views on sworsmanship. He doesn't want Hiten Mitsurugi style to be blemished by the war, yet he himself admits that swordsmanship is a tool of murder. He spent his whole life learning Hiten Mitsurugi, to teach his student only for him to never use it? There is a clash between Kenshin's and Hiko's ideologies, but there is also an inner clash within Hiko about the purpose of his art. Otherwise he would've never allowed Kenshin to go. Kenshin seemed to understand it, that's why he thanked his teacher.
The same story of children who ignore and ridicule their parents' logic, only to understand it years after, living with regret, only to see their children do the same to them.
Well said!
FrozenAXL When you want to thank your parents, it's already too late.
I honestly think it's an inevitable cycle for the most part.
The reason for children's (and Kenshin's) stubbornness is because they have never experienced it. Parents and Hiko want to protect their charges, but in the end didactic words can only have so much meaning. In the end there is no way to understand things like suffering, war, and politics until such poor idealists go out there themselves.
Ultimately I feel like both master and pupil have both valid and invalid arguments; Kenshin will see how cruel and cold the outside world can be, but Seijuro Hiko, whose a bitter hermit, should honestly have understood how such isolation can easily narrow people's perspectives.
@@geocross237 Very well said. I daresay all that isolation has stunted Hiko's empathy and humanity. He's pretty much _clinical_ in his description of man.
Well, humans are born this way.
They can't truly learn until they experience, that's all there is to it.
We are made this way to do mistakes but some, very rare people overcome this genetic problem.
Nature vs nurture
Which will you choose?
Most people without thinking choose nature over nurture and by nature humanity is stupid.
I love how honest the scene is. Breaking down the entire idea of "the hero who protects the weak" to "someone who kills for what he belives to be good". Swordmanship is a tool for killing really strikes at the concept of ideals vs reality that was a keyconcept in the original manga,
to protect the weak while not killing the opposing team. i can see why Kenshin wants Peace so badly. But unfortunately....reality is....that is never going to happen.
@@dannylin5980 in the original manga Kenshin said something akin to it, calling a swordstyle meant bot to kill "a child's dream". He then points out that the childish dream is much prefrable to the grim reality.
@@dannylin5980 And also you kinda missed the point, what Hiko Seijuro means is that murder is still murder, by working with the imperialists, Kenshin will lose a part of his morality and will be divided into two different personas, because of the behavior of trying to justify the act of murder, it's an act of vanity and morally abhorrent, for Hiko Seijuro, he doesn't mean that he should not protect the people who are being oppressed, he just means that we must accept the responsibility on the act of killing and bear the weight of it, Kenshin at his time working for the imperialists tried to convince himself that he did it for the greater good until Tomoe finally woke him up, the act of that murder was never for the greater good, because if it is, then both sides must end at peace but that's not exactly the case, one side ends up with despair, violence and hate...
Seeing this in the context of modern day politics, this makes a lot of sense. Many impassioned young people, without much knowledge of the world, go and join radical political movements to change the world, not realising that they themselves are being used as pawns by nefarious forces, and are actually creating more harm than good.
"They (the men I killed) were all human beings trying to live their lives in the only way they knew how."
Nothing drives home the point quite more than this. Even people who have different viewpoints from us; who see the world in a different way, are also human beings like us, with a shared humanity.
Precisely. Couldn’t have said it better. Too many people follow group identities and political ideologies so much so that they don’t realize those things smother your own individualism. I would never think of a person less than a human merely because they’re republican or democrat. Young people will be naive and join these movements without realizing that they are being used in order to promote that very movements agenda.
Like I don’t judge soldiers that go off to war to protect their family and country of course. But a lot of them don’t know the whole truth. I would tell them to prepare themselves, because in order to survive you’re gonna have to do some pretty dark things, you’re gonna have to step into the evil side of yourself and become a murderer…And if you do survive, it’s very possible that even if you do tell yourself that you did it for the greater good…that excuse won’t be enough for you to live with yourself day in and out, you might feel like it won’t be enough for you to justify the actions you committed. That’s why so many soldiers come back as not the same person before, or broken and commit suicide. That’s the exact dishonor that Kenshin saw in what he had done and made him never want to kill again.
The term you’re looking for is “useful idiot”
Seijiro was wise enough to stop trying to convince Kenshin after exchanging a few words, he would not see reason since he was so green. He must have experience it first hand to understand... Trial by Fire. This is really a good conversation as an example between an experienced and unexperienced ones.
Hiko's teaching is useful to prevent personal guilt and PTSD in soldier. Hiko taught kensin to be agent of his own, not for other people. Thus taking the responsibility for his own actions. Even in democratic society, people use voting, which is the sound of majority. Things like this is what caused lack of personal responsibility, because it is the sound of the crowd & not the sound of your conscience.
How his teaching prevent PTSD? he would kill anyway
@@raulbetancourt5795Hiko's teaching is based on a master swordsman with their own conscience protect the weak by their swords. Whether the swordsman choose to take action or not, choose to kill or simply injure their enemies, it would be their own decision, not because of an order from someone with power. That is why every Hiten Mitsurugi swordsmen before Kenshin had never took part in wars.
@@HonestFarmerLigue1Fan
But, even if it their own decision, wouldn't they feel the weight and had trauma anyway?
The general thrust of what Hiko is saying is that good intentions are worthless, what matters is what you do and you can't be foolish about why you're doing it. Kenshin believes that it's as simple as "Kill the bad guys, everyone lives happily ever after" but Hiko knows how much messier and infinitely more complicated it is. He didn't want Kenshin to pick a side, he wanted Kenshin to protect the innocent, no matter what 'side' they were on. He didn't want Kenshin to fight for someone else's 'justice', he wanted Kenshin to walk a path where he wouldn't be used, but Hiko realized that pain was the only teacher that would get through to him. He knew almost to the letter what would happen. Kaoru and the gang surprised him though, it showed that Kenshin finally understood how he fucked up and was ready to actually be of some good to the world, that's why Hiko consented to finish Kenshin's training.
To put a sharper knife to this statement. It's not so much doing good as it is making a choice for himself rather than being guided by other large powers. Kaoru and Yahiko were able to show Hiko that Kenshin helped people on his own volition. Hiko realized that Kenshin changed and that he was finally making choices for himself and bearing the responsibility of those choices by himself, this is why Hiko continued the final part of his training.
@@0doublezero0 exactly. there are page long comments overanalyzing this but in the end its as simple as that the master didnt want kenshiro to join a side and murder in the name of someone elses justice or maybe even for their gain. Its murder even if he intends to save people and if he murders he has so do it by his own decision unaffected by the moralities/agendas of the 2 opposing parties. But the master is confident that Kenshiro will be forced to pick a side.
Kenshin said the same words in the first episode of rurouni kenshin about swordsmanship and that miss kaorus words are just sweet ornamental words..... But he even acknowledged that he prefered those sweet words
After all the killings, Kenshin eventually acknowledge Seijuro's words of wisdom
'İf you leave this mountain, you will live a life of murder under the direction of men who write their own justice.' Hiko was right. Kenshin realized that too late.
He's just a kid, at that time
@@bhtscorpio4688 true and like most kids, a naive idealist.
@@RuiLuzhow does kids should live these days? Become a politically passive? Isn't that how power becomes corrupt? Power is not evil, it becomes one when every one acknowledge it.
Hiko knew what he was trying to explain to Kenshin, would reach deaf ears. The only way Kenshin would learn, was from experience. Kenshin honestly thought he was doing good, but only realized after the war was over, that the very lives he was trying to save was a contradiction. For the families of all the men he killed, viewed him now as a mass murderer.
In the end, the rurouni resolution to protect those that the eyes can see was the wisest;not being a weapon to the goverment or staying secluded with his master.Protect,with all your might,the ones you love and care.
1:00 "Swordsmanship is a method of murder, do you understand?" . same words Kenshin said to bandits attacking Kaoru's dojo, however he added how he prefers Kaoru's philosophy more over the truth
When i was little i thought himura was right. But now...
Well said. Same here after two wars.
I’ve become a nihilistic **** like Hiko
Johaylon How you were little?
It is the same thing said in Ghost In the Shell. Just in GitS it is a verse from the bible.
What a confident man , trust me hiko is one of the kind.
years later these words hit kenshin so hard that he knew his master all right after all, a pure sensitive kid like kenshin should not go to war coz he know sins and regrets would come after him after he sees what war it's all about and would made him depressed, and he need to kill more, and more, and more, and more to achieve the goal - too much weight on his shoulder.
there's a proverb of a warrior that just like hiko and kenshin relationship between master and a student.
- “a student asked to his master: "You teach me fighting but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: " It's better to be warrior in garden than to be a gardener in war.
Super-underrated comment. Well said.
a wise man words to a child that wants to play hero and becomes a manslayers instead
"Swordsmanship is a method of murder, do you understand? You can decorate it with all sorts of pretty words, but that is what it is."
Shivers.
RosaEveningstar Literal trandlation woulf be. "A sword is a weapon, And Swordsmanship is an art of murder/killing." *More shivers*
"The power of the truth is absolute and you must submit to it or live a lie."
"Although I do prefer Miss Kaoru's words, that I do."
@@deviljon I didn't like that quote. You can't decide what is right or what is truth, no one can. Even science constantly changes. You can't know the absolute truth, you can just try to get close to it. Imagine hurting or even killing a lot of people just for the sake of your beliefs, the things you thought that were the absolute truths, and then realizing you were wrong. Power is meant to be used to protect, not to hurt and destroy.
@@MertKaanTorukojin Power is subjective, and how it's used is dependent on the individual
Hiko is spot on! What's happening in the world today...
Sadly & without a doubt, one of the most underrated anime of all time 😢
Originally he had taken him for teaching how to protect those close to him he lacked the power to protect as in those women who shielded him against bandits. But he ended up wanting to use that power to save all others without realizing there's no saving everyone but only the people on one side while taking the lives of people on the other side. Once he found that out from hard experience, he then went back to the original goal of his master: Saving those closest to him.
He also didn't want the pain of losing loved ones, so he moved from place to place, never staying in a place for long for connections. It's only until he meets Kaoru that he stays long.
人を殺していた時代の上に今があるという忘れてはいけないことを教えてくれる
In the midst of comments and interpretations of Hiko's teachings, a succinct way of clearing things up would be to stick with Hiko's words and logic when he warns Kenshin of what will happen if he leaves his training, which might go like this:
1. A sword is a murder weapon.
2. Swordsmanship is the art/technique of killing/murdering.
3. To protect people, a swordsman has to kill others.
4. To save all people, a swordsman has to murder (at least) some people.
5. The above two axioms state the true/final principle of (all) swordsmanship.
6. I have murdered hundreds of people, but they were all human beings.
7. These people were [living their lives the only way they knew how].
8. If you leave [your training], you will live your life as a murderer [under the direction of men who write their own justice].
9. If you [throw in your lot with them], your swordsmanship will make you a mass murderer.
In this series, both Kenshin and his master have clearly stated Hiten Mitsurugi's core principle to protect the innocent via swordsmanship. However, one key difference between the two swordsmen during this movie arc is that, in short, Hiko stayed closer to that core principle to protect the innocent by choosing to remain neutral as a hermit, whereas Kenshin initially strayed from that core principle, even though he wanted to save many people, by choosing to make himself vulnerable to wholeheartedly choosing a side of the national conflict, i.e. the Ishin Shishi, and systematically killing enemies in their opposition, i.e. the Shogunate forces, as their chief assassin, the Hitokiri Battōsai.
In short, both Kenshin and his master are mass murderers by Hiko's definition, but a key difference between them point to the different moral, social, and political implications that emerge as they live out their own interpretations of the Hiten Mitsurugi. Kenshin would later come to better understand his master's teaching and adopt a neutral position himself as a rurouni. However, Kenshin's lesson came at a heavy price, via his tragic past as a mass murderer, along with its consequences, that would haunt him for a long time, in the form of his past occupation/title/persona/life, the former Himura (Hitokiri) Battōsai of the Ishin Shishi.
This scene captures the conflict of the principles “Turn the other cheek” and “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves.” ❤
The tragedy of this scene is that Kenshin only realizes what Hiko is trying to tell him after losing Tomoe.
In a sense, Kenshin became the same evil he wanted to protect people from.
そんな誰かのためにあんな心身ともにボロボロになる生き方俺には出来ないね
剣心は誰かに助けられ、その犠牲の上に生き伸びたものだからね。だから誰かを助けたいのさ。
When I was 16 yrs old and decided to join party politics to "fight for the oppressed people", I was quite bit like Kenshin. Now that I'm 40, I wish I had a wise mentor like Seijuro Hiko back then, someone who could explain me why I was being foolish and wouldn't achieve my goals following the path I had decided to follow.
So I had to learn the hard way that wherever politics are involved, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is the power in itself. No matter how good and beautiful words or ideals they use to masquerade their real intentions, when stuff goes down the leadership, the conquest and maintenance of power is the real thing, just as Machiavelli pointed out 500 yrs ago.
If I had a clue on this simple reality, I wouldn't have spent so many years of my life with engagement and study just to help elect people as bad as those we used to fight against. Or even invest my time in those activities, but having a realistic, honest approach from the very beginning.
And time, as Seneca used to say, is the most valuable thing in this physical life.
Now I can understand the weight that massacres Kenshin's conscience, because he not only spent his time to be used by bad people; he also took many lives in the process.
In fact, to make a positive difference in this world isn't that difficult, it's not rocket science and doesn't require monstruous efforts as youngsters believe very often. Just be a decent human being, caring for those who are next to you and doing your best. For a legendary sword master like Hiko, the best way to make difference was slay bad people he faced; for us it may start by making our own bed, saving our mother's effort and health.
Like me, Kenshin spent many years in efforts and sufferings, living a depressing and lonely life just to learn this simple truth, taught by many masters throughout human existence. But it's never too late to learn good stuff and change your direction for the better.
I still like ambition though, if only for the sake of education and evolution, rather than power. I'm 38, studied the better part of my life to become better at my craft, and will continue to do so. I respect only technical skill, not so much politics or fake achievements, achieved on the back of others.
So nicely crafted. I too had similar thing in a minor fashion and i realised they were all the same set of people seeking power on way or another, i was just one of many fooled because of youth nativity.
i enjoy the japanese version better because when voice actor of Seijuro Hiko makes his speech about how all swordsmanship ultimately produce murder, it sounds very poetic. Like the words are rolling off his tongue.
Seijuro Hiko HE'S A CHAR!!
ua-cam.com/video/j2pE7F1Noo8/v-deo.html
Every word from Hiko became reality. The tragic inevitable path of his baka pupil.
Kiritsugu and Shirou, heck let’s throw Arturia in as well, should have consulted with Hiko prior to their journey to become hero/saviour
There's no more hiten mitsurugi master to consult at the moment, sir,,
Yes, Hiko is the wisest character in this story...
Thinking about it Kenshin as Battosai was pretty similar to EMIYA archer, both were used as killing machines to maintain a status quo, which made them numb.
師匠の言った通りになっちゃったね😢
what Hiko was trying to say is that taking sides isnt the Mitsurugi's philosophy, help those in sights, the ones you feel right to protect and fight for.
I always need to come back and see this fragment and even if it's at different years, this speech always sound like it's talking about the current state of the world...
Seijuro Hiko is one of the coolest teachers in anime.
こういう教材で英語が勉強できれば楽しそう
The biggest mistake in Rurouni Kenshin was not using this entire scene when Kenshin and Hiko Seijuro have a flashback about Kenshin's immature decision. The scene used in Rurouni Kenshin just missed too much. This scene perfectly explains the entire journey of Kenshin seeking justice and why he was remembered as a manslayer rather than a lifesaver.
"Swordsmanship is a method of murder. You can decirate it with all sorts of pretty words. But that is what is."
Sound to this day. Wish the world is as smart as this quote.
比古 師匠が言ったとうり剣心は山を降りて少ししたら剣心は人切り抜刀斎とゆう本当の大量殺人者になってしまった。
教養レベルで言えば現代の中学生よりも低い若者が、国のため、己の信念のために命を懸けて戦っていた時代があったって本当に今では考えられないよなぁ…
ああ、今は3040過ぎでも中学生気分の奴がたくさん居るよ
マジだよ😞
４６歳のダメなオッサンより
thank you for posting this!
It'll be interesting if the mangaka were to create a story/series of how Hiko came to who he is. I'd be down to watch it.
Hell yeah! Considering Hiko Seijuro is the most pivotal character of the Series. He is after all the reason a scared boy named Shinta became Himura Kenshin and subsequently Densetsu no Hitokiri Himura Battousai.
I love you, Hiko-sama!!!
blindm0nkey515 tbh in the manga there is a bonus chapter about the first hiko
Id pay BIG MONEY to read that
@Straight White Male OUCH!!!
Sorry mate, the creator of this wonderful mangá is in jail.
I love both the English and the Japanese version of this scene. These subtitles are closer to what they are saying in Japanese but the English version, while having subtle differences, was equally poetic and powerful.
Fully agree. Hiko's voice actor and dialogue was probably the best out of all characters in the English dub.
I have watched trust and betrayal probably 10-15 times and I cannot believe not once was sub, but hey that gives me another reason to rewatch multiple times over the years
Funny that when I first watched this OVA YEARS ago, when i was still a young adult I thought id'd myself with Kenshin's POV. Now that I'm older I think Hiko is right.
Funny thing this growing up deal.
Same here.
Saw this over 17 years ago.
Two wars later and after teaching many to surgically “incapacitate” at various distance I can’t agree with kenshin anymore
*Who here started regretting their life decisions and looked back at our stupider younger selves.*
I'm 14 and this is deep
This might sound corny, but as a 35-year old I do not regret...anymore. To regret means to deny all the experiences that shaped me. If I didn't have those experiences, I wouldn't be me. How I choose to respond determines my character.
@@edwardgaines6561 And what if I don't like how I turned out to be?
Better said, what if I knew I grew up wrong, what if I'm completely aware I met the wrong people, gave them so much of myself that I feel I can't evolve as a person at all due to a feeling of being "stuck"?
I have wasted so much time and energy, I do have regrets. A lot.
@@NeoGamemaster I have regrets too. But having no regrets is the biggest regret of them all. That would mean you made no mistakes. I wish I had gone into the military, instead of college back in the 2000s, before the Recession. But oh well.
If you feel you are "emotionally stuck," you might be suffering from arrested development. You're stuck at a certain age mindset, and can't move forward.
I hear you. Wish I hadn't been a manslayer.
This is still one of the most awesome scenes ever after all these years. I do love the English Dub for this scene as well. Shūichi Ikeda and Joe York knocked it out the park as Hiko for this.
As children we supported Kenshin's POV.
As an adult, I understand the validity of Hiko's argument.
"Swordmanship is a method of murder" (c)
Kenshin was 13 when this happenned, easily brainwashed by the Imperials ...
Hiko was basically saying this : "I'm okay with you killing evil people. What I'm not okay is that you do not know that those evil people were also victims, both sides are and you become a puppet by whoever you side with."
What sad is that Kenshin spent the next decade with PTSD because he didn't listen to his master.
1:00 translation is off. Its a great part of the speech too. He said "A sword is a weapon, Swordsmanship is a technique for murder". Rough translation but pretty much the mai idea. Love that part
Dubs don't have to be 1:1, they just have to fit the scene. Hiko saying "You want to protect people with murder?" conveys the same idea more or less.
The visual contract between Kenshin at 1:40 and 1:47 has to have been a deliberate choice; and it perfectly represents Kenshin's youthful idealism versus Hiko's grim warning of how things would turn out.
Regardless of what master Hiko says, one less evil man in this world sounds good to me.
He's not saying that Kenshin shouldn't kill people, only that he should acknowledge the responsibility that it brings, and he should do so according to his own morals, not letting others decide for him by chosing to serve one of the two factions. Hiko killed a lot of people after all, but did so of his own accord, knowing he'd be responsible for taking the life of any man he has struck down.
He killed hundreds of evil men and then he realised that it is not enough. The problem and solutions are deeper than using Hiten Mitsurugi ryu.
Anime has really changed, very rare to see a good mature anime.
mostly these days some crappy school shit or a chosen guy with super power vs evil world..
Even kenshin's series its not compareable to this beatiful kenshin OVA
@Baskaran Ananthakrishnan like?
TRUTH!! Sooo true.
@@courtneybrown5007 Blade of the Immortal is incredible. Mind blowing comics.
Vinland saga
I still prefer the Kenshin anime to these OVAS, as they are overly dramatic. Gone is the lighter tone in certain moments, which existed because Kenshin is a dork at the end of the day. I read the manga, and Kenshin has a couple of moments like this, when he meets Tomoe.
Even so, there are really great scenes in these OVAS. This one, for starters and when the Shinsengumi ambushes the Isshin Shishi is an amazing moment.
師匠が正論なんだよな。
I'm a Idiot so I dont always really understand things like this, but what I do understand: He is basically telling Kenshin what happen during the bakumatsu.
I like that kenshin suffered for his choice the arrogance of youth he learned the hard way.
Still valid to this day. Describes the horror of war and the way young idealists get turned into weapons so succinctly.
Kenshin was so naive....i'm feel sorry for him.
He learn the world is sick and twisted the hard way.
"If you leave this mountain, you will live a life of murder, under the direction of men who writes their own justice."
Fuck...that hits fucking hard.
Kenshin was indeed naive but he wasn’t in the complete wrong per say. In a way they both had good intentions. It’s just that Kenshin didn’t see how he was gonna be manipulated by the government.
It’s like if a soldier leaves to go fight for his country. Honestly I wouldn’t shame him for wanting to protect innocent people but he should also be prepared to know that he’s going to have to step into the dark side of life in order to survive. He’s going to become a full on murderer, and afterwards even his excuse that he did it for the greater good won’t be enough for him live with day in and out or to justify himself. He’ll likely question his sanity when he returns, he’ll question every thing he did. Thus the quote “it’s either you die a hero or live long enough to watch yourself become the villain” or I guess the quote from Leonardo DiCaprio movie Shutter Island where he says “which would be worse? To live as a monster or to die a good man?”
@@thierrytg.3921 well as they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" so whether he or the society thinks he is in the wrong or not, matter of fact he did unleashed sufferings to other people. And i respect him for acknowledging that and choose the thorny and tedious path to attone for his sins, whether if his victims forgives him or not. At least he was self aware of what he was and what he became.
It's a tragedy. But Kaori really saves his soul in the end, his attonement. And she gave him a legacy to be remembered, she gave him her love and a child. I dunno if he deserved that, since his victims or their families don't even get a chance to have that luxury, but he really did his best.
@@tuahsakato17 Right. That’s precisely what Hiko was trying to teach him. That there’s no excuse for murder, both sides take actions that are in their best interest and murder for that cause. There may be a little more good or a little more evil in either one of those sides but regardless its all the same. That’s why Hiko said “as you know I’ve killed hundreds of evil-men” but at the same time he doesn’t try to justify that anymore. Definitely agree, Kenshin did his best to turn over a new leaf and to live a life of atonement. He didn’t try to make excuses either, he fully accepted and dubbed his actions under the sole single word of “murder”. I bet if Kenshin were a real life person he wouldn’t have felt like he deserved that happy ending but all the same he knew it was a burden he had to live with because taking his own life would just be the easy way out. But honestly it’s a way more realistic and honest story than Kenshin being a hero who never did any wrong. In the end he found his own way of the sword to live by.
People have always been and will be stupid victims of deceit and self-deception until they learn to distinguish the interests of certain groups of people behind certain words.
Coming back to watch this clip after watching the new ep of the remake makes me understand about how warriors should be. Not a hero. Not a villain. But a living being trying to do what's right and accepting the outcomes, whether glorious or tragic.
So beautiful and deeply meaningful.
Wise words with a heavy responsibility.
I simply enjoy this wisdom and what it entails upon those who follow upon it.
It’s the truth of a harsh reality
The same thing is happening to the west now. These words of wisdom are now, really rellevant.
当時はこういう血気盛んな若者が本当にいたんだろうな
現代の何と平和な事よ
平和すぎてボケ過ぎてるのがやばいけどね自分の手は汚さず他人に守ってもらうのが当然だとそういってる左派の言い分を聞いてると本当にそう思うわ。9条があるからアメリカが守ってくれるから自衛隊はいらないそう思ってる輩がいるのが本当に嘆かわしいそりゃトランプ大統領も呆れるわな
憲法がそうなってるんだからアメリカ人が命をかけて自分たちを守るのは当然とか考え方怖いわ…
比古師匠の言葉を受け継いだんだな
よく考えてみれば冒頭、心太を守ろうとして死んだ三姉妹は人買いに買われて女郎として売られに行くところだったんですよね。仮に野盗に殺されなかったとしても、あの荒んだ時代の渦中、売られた身では幸せに生きられた可能性はかなり低い気もするのよ。
This is a rather deep conversation going on this scene
Thanks for the upload. Ruroken is one of my favorite animes. The Japanese dialogue was very moving. I also really dig all the comments on this video. I think that both Hiko and Kenshin had valid points of view. Hiko thought it best to stay out of the politics of the time and that the combative skills of the Hiten Mitsurugi style were best use to protect the innocent and weak detached from governmental influence. Hence why he saved young Shinta(Kenshin). However Kenshin was not incorrect in his desire, urge, and need to make a difference. To quote the dub version...I want to bring relief to those who have learned to live without hope. Kenshin's tragic error was that he thought that using the deadly and efficient combat skills of the Hiten Mitsurugi styles was the only way to accomplish his goals.
Hence, he became the lapdog of meiji, the bastard.
seriously, if Kenshin had listend to his master, he would not have lived his life as miserable as Battousai, thats what his master warned him about
THIS IS JUST TOO FUCKING GREAT TO BE REAL. I LOVE THIS OVA WITH ALL OF MY STRENGTH
00:59 A very much needed slap for Kenshin!
Having ideas like this put into my thoughts as a 10 year old made me into a dramatically better person than I would have been otherwise. Hiko really is a great mentor
All life is suffering, no man can remove another from this truth
I love this scene because the master speaks truth.
剣心、動乱を終わらせるために自己犠牲というけれど。君を守ろうとして殺された霞姉さんは、そんな道に行くことを望んでいたかしら？私は喜びはしないと思うわ。命を賭して守った人間が、自分たちを惨殺した野盗のようになることを。
Powerful message! Mitsurugi swordmanship must be learned when there is no ego.
And Hiko's word came to pass. If Kenshin was into his Battousai persona until the end without Tomoe's intervention, he would be like Shishio.
Shishio, pre charred betrayal; clip battousai if You ask me. Kenshin wasnt good enough without learning the amakakeru ryu no hirameki to face a charred version of shishio wich was still an outstanding swordsman so far. Kenshin would ve failed on taking out shishio, no matter his great talent as battousai back then. Kenshin had a blessed ride despite learning things the hard way, the Best mentor, best friends post battousai era, two pivotal broads who made him return to his senses, one interveeneing at the right moment and another for good. Shishio in his prime was a beast, though. Had Kenshin not succeed against him, wether it was pre charred or Kyoto arc, one thing was sure, Hiko Seijuro Jusandai clip him. Period 🙃
@@nathaninostroza7655Not really,.If Kenshin wasn’t using a reversed blade then, Shisio would have been slayed in the first hit. Not to mention the blade also undermines his technique since it’s off balance due to its counter weight.
@@biterness2323 point taken. Now a thing both got to deal with, having regular blade, since pre Kyoto arc Shishio didnt had the Mugen Jin either, it all boils down to who could lay the first cut. And both were so skillfull, so we can't predict that for sure. In Hiko s case, it's a safe bet, since he s, even during the Kyoto arc, a high end fast attacker, unsurpassed, according to Watsuki. Both Kenshin and Shishio meant business in their hittokiri days, so it wouldnt be a duel, but a slash first-no mercy kinda encounter. What i'm saying is that i wouldn't sleep on Shishio s talent for murdering and swordsmanship. So i can't bet on Kenshin against Shishio lightly.
@@nathaninostroza7655 We can because Shisio was already got hit several times by Kenshin’s blows. If it was a real blade most of his opponents would have been slain just like that from the first blow. Kenshin is a really skilled swordsman and in this show he has been basically gimping himself the whole time and yet still kept winning against all the odds. That just proves how much of a gap there is between him and his opponents despite the fact that those opponents of his were also very elite fighters.
Kuzu ryu sen is enough to one shot all those opponents he fought if he used a real blade. Not to mention since he used a reverse blade against all his opponents they have acquired and passed on the knowledge on hiten mitsurugi ryu in order get a leverage against his technique. Even this wouldn’t have been possible if he used a real sword since all of them would have been dead, making them unable to pass on information.
Este discurso é genial, gostaria de que todos os amantes de anime pudessem ver esta obra que foi feita com tanto carinho e capricho, com certeza o melhor anime que ja assisti
the best compatability of character and voice!
Hiko Seijuro, 3X faster than any swordsman
BowlofIndoMee coz he has the voice of Char Aznable
Go down there. Brand yourself a murderer. Murder is the only art a swordsman can practice. No ornamental word can change that. You want to protect people with murder? You will slaught a legion so that a few may live.
Hiko is a hidden demon slayer in the meiji era, a thunder hashira stronger than the breath of sun user.
Char Aznable teaching Kenshin, passing his skills and knowledge of being 3 times faster, also the red color 😂
Dropping space colonies on the earth as last resorts to petty rivalries . lol
It's the Luke Vs Yoda and Ben argument again.
Real words of wisdom makes you really think
多くの人が苦しんでいる。それは、双方に言える事。どちらかに組しては、公平な思想ではない。
そう、比類なき最強の流儀は、どの派閥にも属さぬ自由な救いの剣技であらねばならない……
それが飛天御剣流の理なのだ…
And by the end of it, Kenshin came running back to him.
his master is a real gangsta
It is sad how in the manga, the change is epically visible (when he takes his cape off, he waves his arm and everything around just explodes on a wave of energy xD) and in the anime, he just threw it aside... and gave a death glare to kenshin, enough.
It's sad how they didn't show how powerful he is in reality
これが若さか
せやで
Interesting that Hiko's line about how swordmaship is killing actually are repeated in the first chapter of the series when Kenshin says that but he prefers Kaoru's take on that.
Hiko lowkey trying to dissuade Kenshin because it may come to pass that he has to step in but to kill his apprentice if worse comes to worse.
“He is following his own principles and ideas…because he is pure…”
Kenshin Himura was my first crush when I first saw and collected the manga! Because yes, Kenshin had the worst backstory growing up. And yes, he admitted he had to stain his hands with blood. He simply wanted to protect those he failed to protect and gave him another chance at life. And when the highlight of the war came to a climax he disappeared. Kenshin has seen it all. Has done it all, have plenty of nightmares and knows he has a lot to answer for when his time comes. But he left SO much hope for the next generation. That is how he became immortal to me.
“Anyone can die. But living…that takes an awful amount of courage.”
Years later, Tomoe said the same thing about kenshin, that he was too pure of heart. And years years later, Kenshin said the same thing Seijuro had taught him when he first met Kaoru, that kenjutsu is an art of killing, no matter how much pretty words you decorate it with, it is still the truth.
That coming full circle hits so hard.
I cannot allow you to leave this mountain ... not without this mobile suit boi
Hiko is the true chaotic neutral. I say chaotic because he still kills.
2019. Look how true his words are.