Roubaix Tyre component failure What the ………….
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
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Hi from France, did Paris-Roubaix three times......hardest thing i've ever accomplished in my life......on 27mm tubulars....
In my inexperienced opinion, hookless tubeless with low pressure on rough terrain is a recipe for disaster
You are correct. Because the ultra thin piece of carbon on tubeless rims ends up taking the impact when the low pressure tubeless tyres bottom out. Even worse on such a course with cobblestones etc.
seems like a pretty straight forward conclusion....but others fail to see the matter clearly
Has more to do with volume. MTB tires, 30mm + wide internal rim, 2.5, 2.6, 2.8 or bigger. 20Ish psi. Works fantastically. Suspension and inserts help this a lot but the volume is where it's at.
@@h20s8804 but I've not seen this in other races which seems to indicate low pressure specifically in Paris-Roubaix
@@17cream Correct, but 28-32mm tires are very low in volume compared to MTB tires, which use 1/3 the pressure, and hookless, and rough terrain, and more cornering pressure. So it's not pressure. It's volume and rim width.
I think hookless rims are a lawsuit waiting to happen....
tubular tyres entered the chat
It's definitely the rim. Not the tyre.
The only reason I can see for hookless rims/wheels is lower manufacturing costs. And I may be well off the mark with this but surely a hookless tyre would need a far stronger sidewall. 🤔
They use unstretchable threads to keep the tyre on. These are embedded in the tyre.
We’ll that a grift. You’re now passing on the blame to tire makers for hookless rim failures.
So the wheel makers save money with hookless rims. Now the tire makers have to spend more money to develop a durable hookless tubeless tire.
What's ironic is that consumers buy on account of marketing BS. Exchanging money for problems......
Proverbs 21:20 states: "A fool and his money are soon parted"
Wheels are supposed to roll reliably. Tires are our connection with terra firma. Surely this is sorta important.
I do remember equipment failure being an issue for Roubaix, part of the reason they keep looking for solutions. I think better live coverage and social media are making the failures stick on your mind a bit more, and of course, videos like the one you have created.
Ask Wout if the tech works, I think apart from the puncture which of course can happen, the insert got him to a point where he could change wheels.
Hookless does seem stupid to me.
At the end of the day, I ride tubes, I can fix it myself on the side of the road. Tubeless is just too much drama when it.goes wrong.
Tubulars are the original hookless🤣
I didn’t like Tubulars rubbish design
I never got a flat using fat road tubs off-road! My tubulars would never flat until the tire was practically used up and worn thin. Tubular rims are inherently stronger and much less likely to pinch flat.
I like the thought process. Road disc rims are lighter than ever: discs add more weight, tires are heavier, sealant adds more weight, inserts add more weight.
At this point why not make alloy rims again if weight doesn’t matter and aero is everything
back to basics
Alloy rims still exist. As a wheel builder, I'll only recommend plastic rims for special events and racing if you're wealthy or sponsored. Consumers ought to ignore marketing BS. Marketing is little more than propaganda, brainwashing.
All consumers should make informed and wise decisions. It's their money, literally, a personal decision. Consumers exchange money for potential problems.
Pro riders are sponsored! Haha, theyre paid to ride this stuff!
@@rollinrat4850 Here Hear! I own a couple sets of carbon fiber held together by glue wheelsets but I use aluminum because I feel safer on them and trust their durability.
@@charlesmansplaining I've seen lots of carbon rims with nails passing straight through them. Often our customers have wrecked their plastic rims by having them too close to a heat source, like a car's exhaust or a heater. I've seen rich, overweight guys destroy $1000+ plasic rims on mere potholes simply because they thought they could purchase fitness and skill yet never considered physics or strength of materials. Working in the bike industry has probably made me kinda jaded, haha! It's an eye opener though.
Never forget, marketing BS is nothing but propaganda and brainwashing. There's a sucker born every minute.
I've demoed carbon rims and only feel a slight difference in hard accelerations and sprinting. But I don't race anymore. When I raced, aluminum rims didn't seem to be what kept me from winning a race! The only 'race' I've ever won was an observed trials event at an mtb race! Uber light rims just might have broken!!
The alloy rims I ride aren't that much heavier than the plastic rims I'd dare ride. But I'm definitely not a weight weenie. They're usually not so bright.
Im a serious lifelong underbiker. I've ridden race bikes off-road before MTBs existed. I'm not very nice to my wheels. They are mere tools that need to roll reliably and keep rolling when I'm far from help or cell service.
I can actually afford to replace my tacoed or dented aluminum rims. I generally buy things I can afford to replace. I don't see the value in 5-10x the price for rins. I actually enjoy building wheels that might last several decades, IF I don't do something stupid!
@rollinrat I can’t gree more, still running aluminum rims for yess rimbreaks, never failed me even belgian wet conditions runs just fine. Easygoing easy to maintain,… industry is doing strange things, every year new tech appears, not nessesary beter.
Shimano 10 speed more than enough.
Wide rims expose the sidewall of the tyre too, making them more prone to cuts. Imo, tubeless, hookless, etc. offer no real advantage but impose a lot of faff and uncertainties. If tubeless could work reliably with no sealant id be fine running a tl tyre on a hooked rim, but for now I see no reason to move beyond a standard hooked rim, a tube and an clincher. I works just fine and repairs are largely pain free.
Right,and you can use a tubolito-or the green chinese counterpart for 10 bucks 😂
To this very day, I continue on rim brakes, 23mm tires and in each of my wheels I run a Panaracer Kevlar liner plus in each inner tube I inject some sealant. I am unlucky to even get a single puncture a year. Most of the time I manage to go the full tire lifecycle without one! Why reinvent something that already works???
I agree 100% with you, I believe in the KISS concept (keep it simple stupid). I have Dura Ace C36 wheels and I have no intention of mounting tubeless tyres. I run Pirelli Zero TT clinchers with their smart tubes and have has no problems. Tubeless seems like way too much work, maintenance and headache.
I agree with you on this subject. There are no quick changes when you flat because of through axles. A rounder profile tire like a tubular works best and ditch the carbon non compliant rim. very little flex which saves the rider, and is forgiving on the tire. you can finish a race with an untrue rim but it's over when your carbon fiber rim shatters.
If I had a team car behind me, and a pro mechanic at my 24/7 disposal...
Trying to reinvent the inner tube is another absurd step backwards. I'd rather get a warning if a tyre blows at 30 mph, than a bang and a trip to the hospital.
Make a thicker heavier duty tube................................................................................................. tumbleweed.
l agree 100 percent new is not always better and this last RUBAX proves it just ask the female racer who crashed this yr and got 60 stitches from a disc rotor ON HER FACE ,l believe the UCI had these concerns when disc brakes were being looked into road racing yrs ago !!
I think you have a good point here. If only they could develop a workable solid tyre. I remember this being discussed a long long time ago ! I think the riders are being used as guinea pigs for this new tech which is a pity !
As for your question I don't remember either but I haven't been following the Pro scene for a good while now !
Would like to know as well ! Its a great question !
Lots of the issues with road tubeless are caused by the ultra light weight that is demanded.
I wrench in a high end shop and see this all the time. Most folks don't race, much less a race like Paris Roubaix! Many folks lack (not so) common sense!
The same goes for all sorts of overpriced marketing BS.
When consumers agree to purchase unproven junk, (literal problems) they've made a personal decision. The money no longer belongs to them. The problem does.....
As a professional I won't recommend road tubeless. Indeed, if you can get it set up, road tubeless works well....... until it doesn't! But if customers seem to know better than I do, I'll gladly take their freakin money.
There is a tried and true solid tire that was used on penny Farthings! It'd fit almost any rim regardless of diameter. See the websites if you want to try. You'd be out doing Tannus. What's old is what's new? In this case, modern tech, has it all over ancient tech!
@@davidburgess741 Have you ever ridden solid tires before? Try before you buy! They ride awful. They certainly wouldnt work for roads half as rough as PR. Foam inserts work well though on clinchers. I suppose solid rubber is OK for a wheelchair or skateboards. They're also a real bitch to replace and use specific rims.
I think modern high quality cotton casing tires and latex tubes come very close to the performance of nice tubulars. I used fat sew ups on off-road trails with excellent success back in the day. I never got a flat offroad. Been using ghetto tubeless off-road for over 20 years. In all that time I've never gotten a pinch or puncture flat.
I try my best to discourage my customers from road tubeless. I will not recommend it, even though its job security. 😂🤑
I'll take their money if they insist though!
The old Mavic rims built with 14-16 spokes gave a pretty soft ride with the skinny tyres.
Its too much science and too many other factors now that cause the problems of the tyre failure, as you said years ago, Merckx etc, its was tubulars and they punctured and that was it , you changed the wheel and chased back on!!! Good Topic for discussion Wayne!
If anyone thinks the pros are setting speed records because of the tech and not the drugs, they're deluding themselves.
What do I think? 'The Emperor has new clothes'...
I like your comments on wheels and tires. I take the easy tire route. Continental GatorSkins work for me on my Pinarello.
A trip Back to basics is needed
Did any of the teams use Silca sealant? Works good for me!
I only saw a few wheel changes in the coverage I watched. I saw more bike changes, especially among the favorite riders.
It seemed to me the time it took to change a thru axle disc wheel was excruciatingly slow! The 1st thing that came to mind was how patient the riders seemed. I'm not sure if I could be so patient!
Another thing to consider is you can continue riding a flat tubular tire when it's flat until you can get a new wheel. Perhaps over the rough cobbles this is less of an advantage. I've never been a sponsored racer with a team car.
I've messed around with all sorts of tubeless set ups wrenching in a shop. I don't recommend road tubeless as a professional mechanic. BUT, Its job security for me....Haha!
I started using tubeless well before Stan's ever existed. I still love 'ghetto' split tube tubeless. It's the original DIY tubeless hack invented by downhillers. In over 20 years, I can count the number of tire failures I've had on one hand. This set up is very close to the feel of tubulars and the construction is amazingly similar, just not as light. Ghetto tubeless is incredibly reliable, once you make the effort to dial in your particular set up. I only use this on large volume/low pressure set ups. The smallest tire I've set up is 33mm on old 21mm wide (non tubeless) rims.
I've been underbiking and riding trail on road race bikes several years before MTBs existed. I always loved my fat tubulars 27mm and larger. I always bought pro quality tubs like Clement Del Mondos, Vittoria CG Paves or various 'cross tubs. I'm a pretty smooth rider. I know how to pick lines, 'ride light' and unweight the tires over obstacles. I honestly never got flats on fat tubulars off-road, nor in a race. There are lots of rough, poorly maintained roads where I often ride. I would rarely ever get flats until my sew ups were worn thin and practically worn out. I've gotta admit I've never raced a rough road event like PR though! My dirt explorations on road bikes was almost always on long endurance rides.
I believe tubular tires get a bad rep because 'affordable' cheap tubulars are so bad.
My boss is a former pro tour mechanic from Belgium. He's a serious masters 'cross and road racer. He still prefers tubulars (just for racing) after installing a thousand of them.
What I'd like to see in PR - make the race self sufficient. Riders can choose whatever tech they want, retro steel bike on 23mm tires or all carbon wonder with tubeless+inserts, or whatever they can and want use. But they can't swap bikes, wheels and should fix punctures on their own. I don't see many chances to puncture there (with low pressure tubeless that looks more like snake bites) but if they do puncture, they replace tube or deal with spare tire and goo. All supplies in their own bag or pockets or wherever they can store on bike. After each 20km put buckets with water on roadside. Can choose if to stop and refill bidons or save time and go without water reserve. Next year everyone would ride a proper bike able to withstand road hazards and work on overall strategy, calculating what they can afford to break and what has to last no matter what.
It it is all about promoting the lastest models, i agree I hate the repair car follow thing.
Tubeless is great on a MTB, but on road bike? Paris Roubaix was bad enough, but potentially you only need a pro descending on the road at 60mph plus to hit a pot hole and the front tyre to burp and we could have fatality. The whole bike component area has reached La La land proportions.
Think the hookless is a bit of red herring in this case as Jumbo had issues the last 2 years with tubs last year on Shimano wheels & Tubeless this year on hooked Reserve rims. You do have to account for the faster pace that they are riding the cobbles at - look at the pace of the kast few editions. Hitting cobbles with added momentum has a large factor in crashes and damage. Then you have the risk reward ratio - not running inserts saves around 3watts so some will risk it. If you do use inserts though are the Tubeless tyres still faster than tubs? I would like to see a recalculation when including inserts + sealant - are they still faster? Tubs require a good cement & gluing method to get the best rolling resistance figures, which isn't an issue with Tubeless. Basically you have a 3 way choice which needs MCA to calculate the value to each rider: Tubeless no insert - faster but will offer no rim protection when flatting, Tubeless with insert 3 watts slower than without but some run flat ability, tubs slower than Tubeless tyres without insert unsure against Tubeless with inserts, some run flat ability, requires top gluing job gor both safety & speed + less development as companies put more R&D into Tubeless tyres.
Bahrain who also had issues, used Metrons, which are a hooked rim as well.
I rode the 1991 amateur Roubaix in a Belgium club, we had a team of 6 all on big bagged singles as they were called then, probably 25”. We had 15 flats within the team and I was the only one not to puncture or crash and I was riding just cheap training singles on lower pressure so punctures on tubulers also happens maybe we have forgotten. I can’t understand the tyres rolling off on the clinchers with sealant , I ride mtb on some pretty rough terrain and this never happens unless your pressure is way to low . I don’t know what the overall statistics of the pros and how many punctured and what type of punctures they were that would tell a story, we’re they mostly pinch flats, which means pressure was to low or were they small sharp stone flats, sealant would fix that problem? So it doesn’t make sense . If I rode this race again and could go back in time I would want suspension on my stem to dampen the vibration on the wrists and something to dampen the vibrations on the ankles this is where the pain is worst. I would ride 30” singles with some inner protection or sea lent in the tube itself . One thing doesn’t make sense , it’s not like the pros don’t test out all their gear on the cobbles prior to the race ? And why is everyone criticising disc brakes when it’s just an industry remedy to prevent the carbon delaminations and warranty issues, they change bikes anyway not wheels .
Tubular are and always will be the gold standard
I think numbers have to be taken into account. These racers are searching for every watt of resistance and tubulars have been tested to be the slowest system. Tubeless tyres and clinchers are very similar in terms of rolling resistance if clinchers are fitted with latex innertubes on normal roads. But Roubaix is special and the ability to run lower pressure makes a tubeless system clearly outperform any other on the Pavé in regard to rolling resistance + Inserts can prevent a quick stop if a puncture occurs.
Disc-breaks are not needed at any race this flat though.
Feels like the old we get the faster we were.
I think we've seen that discs and tubeless are not great for racing purpose, they seem to work best with wide tired bikes, which is why they've been all over the MTB world for decades. Narrow rims and tires at high pressures seem to be a problem with disc brake and tubeless wheel systems. Now we've even seen pro teams sneaking alloy parts back on to the bike. I think if pros actually chose their set-ups again, a bikes would probably revert back to what they were between 2002-2012.
Also tubulars completely disprove the 105% wide tire rule that Zipp made up in the first place. A tire slightly wider than the rim, on a narrow rim, handles better than a narrow tire shoved into a wide rim, otherwise tubulars would've been history and not still the over all preference of racers. Even the early MTB guys from Marin County all said the original MTB tires were wide touring tires on narrow, Mavic Module E rims, and they all said they liked the handling better of a wide tire on narrow race rims better than when 26 became standard for ATBs.
I 100% agree with your opinions, but still 2023 Roubaix was the fastest ever. Pro cycling will become more and more like F1
The equipment they use at the top level wiil become irrelevant to us mortal consumers ...
Hookless and disk brakes are not needed by, perhaps, 90% of weekend riders
The impact you describe on the rims is also a contributing factor in pinch flats. I have a hookless system and standard tubeless and have not had a flat in four or five years. They are a little bit harder to install but once you get the hang of it they are great. I know you are not a fan of discs and I again will say that the added confidence they give toi a heavier rider like myself on steep twisty decents and in the rain make the small weight disadvantage well worth it.
There is a long history of tyre failures with tubs, when the heat has impacted on the resin, so it was not always better, they are also impractical for most of us, that the pros are now using tubeless just helps drive the technology and we will all benefit down the line.
Tubular with tape is dead esay to install, even on the side of the road. I have made many videos on installing tubulars. Much easier and faster than tubeless with sealant.
I'm pretty sure that clincher tyres with tubes used to die on Roubaix cobbles as well... most of the high profile failures were from one/two teams using the same type of tyre...hmmm. 10 years ago, the bikes were travelling a LOT slower too...
No they weren't
I think tubeless is a lot of hot air…not a fan…
Clincher or tubular for road, Cx = tubular or tubeless, MTB = tubeless hooked, tubeless hookless.
Having disc brakes and hookless rims it's a double danger to cyclist
Nothing wrong with disc brakes
Pros & cons of each system but I think running tubeless at low pressures with stiff wheels on cobbles is too risky.
At least with wide tubs you had some rim protection and could keep riding when flatter they rarely came off when glued properly.
They should go back to steel spokes with alloy rims.
I am not a fan of disc brakes on road bikes either, slow wheel changes and finicky setup.
I have been watching since the 70s.
RDV not flatting for his 4 PR victories hurt me, I "tried" Sewups in the Desert Roads of New Mexico, walked out late at night,,,silly and epic
Tubular tyres are still my favourite if they flat they don't roll off the rim
There are limits on how far you can ride on a flat tubular before the glue joint separates. I've ridden 1 km back to the pits without a problem, and I've tried to ride 5 km, that ended in a rolled tire, and disaster.
I understand what your saying but they are safer to me and I do carry a spare but personally at the time of the fslt it's not going to roll off like the tublees tyre
Exactly
Ride a flat tubeless tire far and you'll wreck your rim and or crash. I don't believe any bike tire is designed to ride flat either.
@@rollinrat4850 Not so with a properly glued tubular. You can ride it far enough to stop safely or even get home if not too far
What pro teams use for racing is not always the best solution for everyday riders or even regional racers who don’t have a team car. For racing, maybe tubulars are the right answer but they need to evolve like other tire technology? It’s hard to find a 28 tubular or anything larger. I am not about to move to hookless rims…. Or am I? I am building up an old 70’s garage find and wheels back then were “hookless”, but they used a wire bead tire. I like to see advancements and the tire wheel thing is interesting. I guess if there are going to be challenges and issues, better for that to happen in the pro race environment than with regular consumers? Me, I ride tubulars, clinchers, rim brakes, disc brakes, tubeless road, tubeless mountain and any time I’m on my bike, I’m having fun!
The long and the short of it is that there are no perfect systems yet. Racers really need a much more puncture resistant tires.
Exactly. Just make the tyres thicker and tougher.
@@ricf9592 like an EXO+ or double down Maxxis mountain bike tire casing. Can’t be that hard.
Tubulars with higher pressures are better for puncture and failure avoidance but tubeless systems can use larger tyres with less tyre weight and more importantly at lower pressures which is an advantage in terms of comfort and rolling resistance on the cobbles. Tubular systems can't match that. Van der Poel was riding 32mm tubeless tyres with 3.5-3.8 bars.
So, why can't the tire companies make a 32 mm road tubular?
@@mpvsystems9302 Vittoria produces 30mm tubular and is weighting 60 grams per wheel more than the and still riding below 5bars will be risky for punctures and snakebites so that make tubeless better choice
no i cant remember seeing a rider's wheel suddenly collapse... but last couple of seasons ive seen quite a few and not only in roubaix unfortunatly. it happens so fast to, instant carnage while you're looking at it but ask me what happend and i go ...good question..., i don't know...
That another problem with this light weight carbon garbage. We are seeing so many wheels exploding and the riders getting seriously hurt. It's technology we don't need.
tubless with sealant and inserts with hookless rims and disc brakes ?? what could possibly go wrong....LOL..only Humans could make something far more comlicated than the past and call it progress..more weight...less safety.. longer wheel changes..how is joe public expected to deal with all that...50 km fro m home with a tyre that will not seat or seal....with white glue all over your nice new frame that costs thousands ...sounds about right....if I get a puncture on my tubular with tape..I just rip it off put on a new one which is in my spare bottle and ride slowly home...takes minutes...
Exactly what I do, but try sealant first, but touch wood I rarely flat.
What an absolute shit show. It's embarrassing for the sport
I think Paris-Roubaix is basically an experimental field for tires wheels company to push the boundary of their products. Back in when carbon wheels was just a thing, Paris-Roubaix destroys them completely, completely broke into half is very common. Until the time when if I remember correctly, the team that is running Zipp's carbon wheel completed the Paris-Roubaix, only after that carbon wheels started to take over alu wheels. I do think those failure cannot conclude that the hookless/tubeless is not "safe", after all there are way more hookless/tubeless managed to complete the Paris-Roubaix. Afterall, for normal folks like us, we don't hit the cobbles with 40km/h and go that low pressure to have marginal gain. However, I'll go hook rim if I have a choice.
100%
The Paris Roubaix 2023 was the fastest edition in the race's 120-year history, with an average speed of 46.84 km/h. The previous record was set in 2022 by Dylan van Baarle, who won with an average speed of 45.792 km/h. The average speed of all Paris Roubaix editions is 37.15 km/h. So this year's race was about 10 km/h faster than the historical average. That's impressive!
Tailwind
@@dickieblench5001 PEDs
"To finish first, you first must finish"
@@dickieblench5001ah yes the first tailwind in 120 years
Campy Shamal clinchers or 50mm tubulars. No other options are needed. You can't improve on either of them. There is way too much marketing hype out there.
Why not just run clinchers with tubes lined with sealant?
@Teakhead Al sealant does sod all for tubes with pinch flats
@Teakhead Al that’s interesting. I’ve never tried it but years ago when Ollie was with Cycling Weekly, he did some test and ran over nails and it seemed to work perfectly
@@jonnoMoto i wonder if punctures work better than pinch flats
I have tried it and it does work to a degree.
Thumbs up from me, but you don't even need the sealant.
Newer equipment won't be cheaper than old equipment
That is true and I accept that, but the increase for the latest bikes for the lack of customisation and fittment is very poor and the quality has not improved.
The disc brake system on rd bikes has a limited factor, time and technology not been ready for the end use. Some ideas and technical changes will be dropped. The current materials don’t support the requirements. Wheels collapsing tires rolling off due to hookless design and other immature ideas for the application are what we see in extreme conditions but also in what one would say failures in unacceptable conditions. All this is industry driven and dangerous for the end user. A topic not going away soon.
glad I dont own one of these new bikes with the new tech....more hassle than anything else
This system is OK for professionals, but lack durability and value for the rest of us.
If a virtual world where a rider rode a bike with the new tech of discs, thru axles and hookless rims and his avatar rode the older tech of rim brakes, quick release axles and tubulars, and they both had the same flats or wheel failures, the older tech guy would be minutes ahead by the end.
Bottom line is, that if you are a contender for the Roubaix, you may be better off on the old tech.
I can remember George Hincapie having a monumental disaster Wayne do you remember? Handlebar and headstem failure resulting in george having an enforced break{sic}for about 6months other than that just remember lots and lots of flats must have been those 19mm tyres!!!!!!
Yes some of the components did fail during the Paris roubaix race. The negative elements of tubeless tryes have been pointed out. But there is a trade off between speed and reliability here. Bicycle teams wanted to win the race and this years Paris roubaix was the fastest yet. Because tubeless is faster its just not that reliable
New idea: tubeless tubulars
In TUFO tubulars, the inner tube is vulcanized to the outer carcass. Rgr
@@borano2031 Wow! I knew about Tufo but not the actual structure! Nice to know. However, I hear they are no longer functioning!
@@borano2031 Most of those Tufo tires ride like rocks and are heavy.
The best of both worlds. Tubeless technology and the tire stays on the rim when racing.
@@billkallas1762 room for improvement, is the root of technology
Industry is going the wrong way. Like every industry, they are going for the quick buck gains instead of the longterm.
I still run a 10 speed rimbike in Belgium, and love the cobbles. Al frame Al rims whit quick release. I just hate that you forced to buy a new frame, wich are more complicated, even withelectronic shifting, do I need it no, I just want a bike, nothing complex, just a mechanical bike.
Paris Roubaix is the Frailty Test
Hookless and tubeless on cobbles would be my worst choice and doesn't make any sense imo. And I'm a tubeless fan. Has to be just a marketing push?
The whole argument around hookless tubeless is about soaking up the bumps 😂 , mkay
Asssume you are a pro, who has ridden more miles than 99.999% of people on the planet, you calculate every bit of details that can make you win. And in a race that is famous for gear failures, you decide to run hookless nonetheless. I don't think pros are fool enough to make this decision.
i completely don’t understand this situation, tubeless in mtb (or better yet enduro) is gold, you can have many punctures in one ride and all is good, you just keep riding or stop to inflate a little bit if it’s too low. You need to land pretty bad (sideways) to burp a tire. And if you add a tire insert your whole wheel becomes indestructible even with way to low pressure, been there done that. so how this is not the same in road cycling i don’t know. maybe in mtb, quality do also mean being thought and in road it means being light, too light.
I think the design of MTB tyres is protecting the carbon wheels more when the wheel bottoms out.
Its because of the difference in the size of tires. What works for giant MTB tires doesn't necessarily work for road.
The higher pressures of road tubeless make it much less practical to self-heal. With the perfect tight tire to rim fit required, reliable set up is much more complicated in a bike industry well proven to ignore manufacturing standards.
Roadies often demand stupid light equipment, at least this is what manufacturers cater to. We used to uninvite weight weenie XC racers from our epic endurance mtb rides because their freakin thin tires always failed, often ruining our day. Weight weenie junk is simply unreliable in less than a perfect environment.
I'm a pro mechanic. I love large volume low pressure tubeless. I've been using DIY tubeless since before Stan's existed. I haven't had a pinch or puncture failure in over 20 years.
I also used to be a road racer. I won't recommend road tubeless. It job security for me though!!
@@rollinrat4850 this tire pressure might be it. it's so easy to use tubeless in my mtb wheels, one portion of sealant plus shot of air and it's done. when in my gravel with slim tires (38) it's way more work, many sealant portions and air shots just to be abble to pump up to 4 bars - i thought it was due to poor rims (cheap wheels) but pressure might be another factor here and perfect fits another.
@@pawewielgus2105The main issue with almost all tubeless tires is the tire to rim fit. Again, manufacturing standards and quality issues come into play. In general, the larger bike industry completely fails at consistent standards or a very high level of quality control Im a retired mechanical inspector. I wrench in a high end shop just for fun.
You can only use tape to adjust tire fit to a certain extent. Some tires simply don't work on particular rims. Certain tire brands have horrible standards which creates more issues getting their tires to set up reliably.
Seems like now, when a piece of equipment fails, it fails BIG. All those design margins are gone.
Indeed! All the good engineers are gone too. Bike industry can't pay them enough. 😭
The larger bike industry ignores engineering standards. They create their own!
@@rollinrat4850 Some of those wheel failures are pretty spectacular. Never seen anything like it. And some those hard falls I figure, scrap the bikes unless they go through some kind of extensive x-ray inspection.
@@chrisharper2658 Haha, I'm a retired mechanical inspector and machinist. I helped build stuff that human lives rely upon, much of it insanely expensive.
It's ironic that humans often entrust their lives on overpriced bicycles. I can take virtually any new high end production bike and find several if not numerous assembly errors, not to even mention the engineering faux pas. QC is a big inconvenient overpriced joke. That's an understatement considering their so called 'engineering'. I can prove it any day at work!
Now I wrench in a high end shop, just for fun. As retailers, we are required to make up for the larger bike industry's GREED, compromise and shortcomings. We take the hit and do extra work for free to keep unknowing consumers happy.
We're often the messengers that the consumers want to kill!
Nobody's fooling me. Least of all, marketing bullshit.
Fortunately, I love bicycles and only do this to stay out of the wife's hair at home! I don't need this job, I just choose to do it.
@@rollinrat4850 As a kid in the '70s I would hang out and pester some of the guys at a local bike shop. They picked up a new brand for the lower to mid level market and boy were there head aches and lots of rework before a bike was ready for sale. The owner always had the senior mechanics go through them and they dreaded it. When you take into account all the extra work, it probably wasn't so profitable after all. I guess things haven't changed much for the bike shops, especially when rent is high. Plus, depending on where you are, it can be a very seasonal business, feast or famine.
@@chrisharper2658 Entry level bikes in general were of much higher quality in the '70s and '80s. (Quite ironically) excepting the made in China, department store garbage. I've also built and inspected made in the US carbon fiber satellite hardware. Again, nobody's fooling me.
At my present company,
(part of a large corporate chain of bike shops and bike brands) when we carry products that cost us more rather than show profits, we stop selling them. It's pretty simple.
In general consumers have become far less demanding, less knowledgeable and far more materialistic. Marketing BS rules. Honestly new enthusiast bikes can't be expected to last more than 5-10 years. Most consumers don't even care about that. That's why I refuse to buy them even though I get
them at cost. I could make a profit buying and selling bikes at cost. Lots of industry employees do that.
I buy or build custom everything and use lots of 'good old junk'.
Soon after MTBs became popularized in the late '80s and early '90s, the bike industry became much more corporatized and traded on the stock market. This was the beginning of the de-evolution.
Sounds like we're close to the same age. We've witnessed the gradual and incessant decline in manufacturing in general. It's not only the bike industry.
I was also a source inspector when many higher tech companies were looking to produce cheaper. Fortunately for what I helped build, that level of 'quality' simply wouldn't fly.
I remember numerous US and Japanese made bike brands that are now producing utterly unsafe junk.
I'm restoring a 1977 Albert Eisentraut bike. He's retired now, but once was one the very first US custom builders. He taught many of our current best frame builders. Even one of the guys I've had build frames for me. He got his start at the Schwinn Paramount factory in Chicago. How far they have fallen......
It's sad, but I'm boycotting the larger bike industry. They don't get my money.
Hookless! Madness.
Tubulars flat. The difference is that you can't swap in seconds anymore. Even with rim brakes as many bicycles are using thru axles...
In a race, you just change wheels. I've never seen a rim brake bike with thru axles.
But tubulars don't roll off the rim
@Dickie Blench I've witnessed that as well. It was spectacular when the rider took a corner and end up on is prized aluminium rim with no tire on it. Fortunately, he managed a stop on the remaining tire and a swap. Minimal damage to the rim.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 the bike was perfected long ago with tubulars and rim brakes. Everything since is just marketing BS
@Dickie Blench So you say. Take your rim braked tubular bike on some of the roads around here and your opinion will quickly change as you go through your second tubular. In less than a kilometer.
Personally avoid hookless wheels like there disaster waiting to happen. Will not not even look at thoes wheels as in process up upgrading wheels from heavy stock wheels. Rims are starting to get to wide for road tires sizes now. Wider rims need to work with wider tires for the reason mentioned plus more. Great for CX/ all road-touring / gravel/ light MTB but not for road as wider tires/ rims will increase rolling mass and smooth ground contact friction. 21mm internal rim width on my wheels now with 28mm tires still has slight curve. Peak torque on UA-cam proved that 28mm tire is still aero on 21 mm internal rim while 30mm tire and up are not testing some wheels for a review. 23mm tires could be issues and 25mm tires is bare general use tires on 21mm internal width rim. If internal width goes up so has the tire. On 23mm wide internal and up should be at least 28mm tires for general use as thoes rim are for are 28mm and wider tires. So road use wheels should be about 21mm internal. Mixed surface/ gravel/ cx wheels 23mm to 27mm internal width depending on frame tire clearance plus with what the industry will settle on, as it still in the mass public beta test phase years for thoes wheels.
Why don't motorcycle, car/trucks, farm equipment tires hardly ever flat or a flat is a very rare, almost never , occurrence? I've been driving for more than 45 years and have never had a flat in my car. How many millions of cars are on the roads and we trust the tires so well that the average speeds we drive are, well, high. It's because the rubber is a lot thicker. The amount of rubber is engineered and designed to work. This is the route the bicycle industry should be taking if they want tubeless tires to work. To Hell with the weight wennies. You want a tubeless system so you don't get flats make the rubber thicker.
Good point, tubeless, when you don't need a spare have come of age. That is what average joe wants.
Mathieu van der Poel first place no component failures, fastest ever Paris-Roubaix, case closed. look at MVD line choice through cobbles compared to others, knows how to un-weight bike, finds the right lines - path of least resistance; Its a master class for roadies from a dirt rider. what tyres Vittoria Corsa Pro tubeless! what wheels, Dura-Ace C50 wheel, he even had di2! if a plonker keeps riding with a flat, yep component failure, if he slams through rough terrain with no intelligent line choice, yep parts will break. yep carbon will break in crashes, we know that. not rocket science here, the old bad tradesman blames his tools.
But isn’t unweighting, line choices and simple stuff like bunny hops over stuff very basic bike handling skill?
Frankly, I’ll be horrified if these stuff isn’t part and parcel of any cyclist skill set, road or off-road
Last year Jumbo Visma was running tubular wheels (Shimano ones) and they cracked entirely folding over themselves like carton. There you go, your so much loved tubular, failed. Also, for the love of the bike gods, please do not mix hook less and tubeless. Hook less is tubeless but the reverse is not true. Tubeless DOES NOT have to be hook less. You can run tubeless on hooked rim and have no issues. I also don't like hook less and think it's not a ready technology yet. If you took your beloved Look bike and did a down-hill track on it, it would probably fail.. Does this mean it's bad design? No, it just means that you have not used it in its intended purpose. Roubaix is just a freaking hard race for components. You should just not ride it on road bikes. I think it's almost irresponsible to make cyclist ride on such roads with road bikes. But I think this is the whole point of it. With gravel bikes with massive tires and even suspension there would not be so much of a "show" factor.
When did Shimano ever made a good wheelset?? Rgr
Nothing to do with the tubulars, the problem was with the wheel.
So when tubulars fail, it’s the wheel’s fault.
When tubeless fails, it’s because it’s tubeless.
Right……
@@slowcyclist4324 Yes, it was/is correct for Jumbo-Visma. Last year the WHEELS failed, this year it was the TUBELESS tyres. You may draw any other conclusion you may from this... Rg
Yes the wheel did fail, facts, but remember he was riding on a already flat tyre on pave. The rim couldn't stand up to the impact. That is reasonable. If a tubeless or hookless, you can't even ride them on normal roads flat. Yes you can put a insert in. So we will have to see how good these are over time. Remember these insert are incredible hard to fit. So a significant setup before riding.
One point overlooked Wayne is the tire pressure..back in let's say the Merkcx era, they ran a wider tubular but with maybe 20 lbs less air..now on rough cobbles they are running a pressure that normal cyclists would never run on tubeless...thus tires coming off and wheels exploding. Personally, i run clinchers and fix with a 20-cent patch.But i don't blame manufacturers, i blame teams for exceeding tire recommendations.. like F1 and nascar teams try to get away with..