Why do you believe in the Qur'an?
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- The person going by the name, Quranic Islam is the most recent addition to my panel doing Qur'an Lessons for the Infidel.
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When I accepted that I didn't believe ( raised Quaker) several things happened...I stopped smoking after 49 years with ease, I was able to sleep through the night, my depression went away and I lost 81 pounds in 3.5 month with little effort andy nightmares went away!
For the first time in 57 years (I'm 65) I'm happy and healthy!
did anything else significant happen around then or do you think the cause of all of the rest of that was giving up religion? that's a complete personality change. like a religious conversion except going backwards
Please tell me how you went about losing that weight. I really would love to know, so I can maybe apply your wisdom to my "covid 15" (OK, it's a bit more than 15)!
Life makes a lot more sense when you simply use common sense lol! Worked for me too!
Perhaps realizing that this life is the only one we’ve got helps finding motivation for taking care of oneself. And embracing reality instead of constantly battling with cognitive dissonance and fear of eternal punishment must be a balm for one’s mental health.
Even as a kid religion always felt like a prison to me.
Congratulations. I wish that had been my experience.
These conversations always devolve into "my holy book is better than your holy book" when it should be about the reason why we should believe in a holy book in the first place.
Exactly ! It's the fear of the 'after life' that makes people believe in a god. The "what if there is something" and you're not accepted as a good follower of the right religion and send in "hell" is the fear.
I didn't say that ... and in fact I don't think you need to believe in a holy book at all, or in God at all. Everything man needs for a moral life he already has. But sorry, whether how it started or proceeded, there was no real place to explain that properly. But I'm saying it now; you don't need to believe nor accept the Qur'an or any holy book.
@@MegaBIGJOE64 9
@@QuranicIslam Not true at all ? Morality can be conclusively linked to society it is not inherent
To be a moral decent person you certainly do not need a book or a god so what use is that belief ?
@@gowdsake7103 As I have been saying, you don't need belief. And whether you link it to innateness or society, the morality is there and it is the actions that matter to God. "Faith" or "trust" can help shorten the way ... and everyone needs to have some faith in goodness itself, that being moral is right and good for its own sake ... not for society or reward or punishment. Without some kind of faith or trust in a better future then on a large scale it is very difficult for people to continue to do right if they have been wrong too many times
But yes ... you don't need belief in God or a Book to be moral. And if religion is taken wrong, it can actually be much worse for you.
"You don't need to believe in god." Aron points out that the Quran requires you to believe or you get punished. "No." End of argument.
Aron cites Surah 9:5.
QI: "It doesn't say that." *Declines to read the verse. Declines to provide evidence. Dishonestly pivots to a new topic.*
The crazy thing that were said :
"My holy book isn't there to make people believe in god."
After Aron has been reading the Qur'an page by page in a study group "that's the wrong way to read the book".
That second one sums up the attitude of so many believers. They don't want you to actually read the whole book, they only want you to read the few specific bits that they like.
If you can read it in a study group with people who speak the original language and can explain why a word or sentence was translated like that, and you can still read it wrong, then baybe the writing was shit from the very beginning.
This verse says this but it doesn't mean what it says.
@@MrCanis4 I heard that one often.
You can actually refute such argumentation by pointing out that the Qur'an says of itself, that it can be easily understood by everyone.
1. If a verse states what it states, but doesn't actually mean what it states, then it's not easily understood by everyone (or else we wouldn't be having all these debates): a contradiction.
2. If the Qur'an is easily understood by everyone, and the verse actually means what it states, then a bunch of verses will clearly state scientific errors, meaning it is not of divine origin: an attack the other way around.
Though they can still say, that we do easily understand what they claim they understand, but we are deliberately misunderstanding because we are the "liars and deceivers" talked about in the Qur'an. But at least that's a very weak attack that doesn't address the problem, so I would always make this argument.
Not that long ago they would preach the whole thing like it's the truth
I’m loving the “it’s not intended to teach science”, because you just know morality is coming up and damn is it going to be good. 22 minutes in, it feels so close!
My brain is incapable of making the mental contortions required to believe any god or religion.
That's bc you're a dog, and I'm a cat, so I can't do it either!
It works really well on people who were recently born
"Why are you reading the Qur'an if you have such an abysmal view of it.
He has an abysmal view of it BECAUSE he is reading it.
Bro why would you say something like that🤦♂️
This is such a great example of how the religious mind will do the most incredible backflips and acrobatics to protect it's belief. Religious people are like master Jedi in the subtle art of self deception. They're like ninjas of the mind of lying to themselves.
He couldn’t be more dishonest if he tried.
@@thelordjesus1136 Why do I always get this drive by debate on AronRa videos? You don't read or care about what I said. You don't say anything that's pertinent to anything. What's the point man? You're not going to get any new converts like this. I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you but you don't want that. You just want to preach. Trust me. You're going to have better luck on a street corner. We need reasons to believe things. That's why we're hear. And you won't do that.
@@Anonymous-md2qp It is of course dishonest. But I'm wondering if he's being dishonest with us or with himself.
Do you know about cognitive dissonance and how the mind protects itself from it? Or other cognitive biases? That's the only way I can make sense of it. He really thinks what he's saying makes sense. He believes the lie.
Are we sure its not just a bot? Besides, isn't claiming to be the Messiah a form of blasphemy?
Pretty sure it takes the lord's name in vain at least.
@@Duchess_Van_Hoof I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "bot" but it's probably copy pasted all over.
When people say bot I usually think of like a computer generated speech thing that responds automatically to people. When people get 50 different accounts so they can do mass voting with just a few people, that to me is soc accounts. But I don't know. What's a bot?
Every time AronRa came with an argument destroying his reasoning, he said "let's not get into that"
The simple answer...religiously imposed stupidity. An impossible force to overcome. Every time you confront him with his holy book's own words, he insists it doesn't say what it says.
But he never confronted me with anything from my holy book and we never got to really discuss a single verse ... but I suggested something at the end that we could do in the future. This one did really get anywhere ... it was mostly him saying "it says X, Y and Z" and me saying "not it doesn't" ... so didn't go anywhere.
@@QuranicIslam He confronted you several times and you just denied what it said. He may as well have interviewed a tree. I don't recall you correcting Aron on a single point, you just said "no" and hastily moved on to another point.
@@myzamau428 Well he confronted me with what thought, and i didn't agree. So yes of course. But we never sat there and discussed verses or passges ... he just listed things I think he had wrong. What you expect me to do? I didn't come expecting to clarify a list of verses ... i expected more of a discussion on "why do you believe" ... which of course should include "what I believe" ... not; here, let me list the things why why what you believe is wrong, and let me also tell you want you SHOULD believe your scripture says" ... so yeah ... it became a lot of "it says this" vs "no it doesn't". Sorry about that. But i was trying, at the beginning before it got muddled, to explain what I think is really at the bedrock of religious belief
anyway ... hopefully nect time according to my suggestion we can actually discuss the verses and suras
He literally confronted you with the text itself.... and you balked. Ever consider you are suffering from self imposed delusion? You should
I mean, it's not impossible. I did it.
Aron: "Where in the Qur'an does it say that?"
QI: Changes his claim instead of citing the verse.
Is he going to cite even a single verse of the book he believes in this entire discussion? Even one?
QI simultaneously claims you can't choose your beliefs, but you can choose to believe someone, even if you know they're wrong. He doesn't care that he's not rational.
Aron: "The book says this."
Interviewee: "No."
🙄
Yeah ... unfortunately that's mainly what it came to. I think I speak for both of us when I say sorry for that. I think the exact focus of the discussion wasn't clear ... or we didn't have one or didn't stick to it. I came more thinking along the lines of explaining what I think is at the bedrock of belief/faith and why people stick to it, and so why I can only assume I stick to it. I wasn't expecting to get into a flurry of grievances against the Qur'an and be put in the apologist position, I'm not an apologist.
@@QuranicIslam All you did was apologia however. All of which Aron says is translated exactly the same way in the German translation of the quran, every time you denied it, like this was some task in wrestling down a squealing, greased pig in some sort of carnival game. Are you implying there is some grand conspiracy with people who translate the quran?
@@QuranicIslam maybe you should actually read what your holy book says, instead of what you wish it would say.
@@QuranicIslam, you were a fabulous advocate for Buddhism, that was truly pathetic, Aron gave examples, and the best you could
manage was nuhah and change the subject.
You claimed that no one spends eternity in hell but never backed that claim up with so much as a chapter, let alone where they go once they’re cooked.
@@arnoldimus5905 Yeah I was sort of pushed into the apologist seat and was trying to get out and actually not get into apologetics. That obviously frustrated a lot of people ... because i'd just say "no" and try to move on.
It isn't that the translations are so wrong, though they ARE wrong in very key vocab ...
and that will be across the board, because it is translated by Muslims ... majority Muslims who believe certain things which are the result of history and politics and sectarianism. However, you still can get it right with nearly any translation.
But it was really the assertions he was making that i was denying. Like that the Qur'an says the sun and moon are the same size. That just isn't true. You can look it up yourself now.
But anyway, maybe after this series he is doing is over, he could host an published, peer-reviewed top academic working in secular Qur'anic studies. Then you'll see that a lot of the assertions he makes here would be denied by the said academic as well.
Unfortunately, Aron (I believe) just got of to a bad start on the Qur'an, held it "the wrong way" and of course only having exMuslims as his main "companions in the reading"(who, you might not recognize this but i can easily, are not very knowledgeable) ... that isn't exactly going to help you be educated on the Qur'an as Muslims see it, is it?
Anyway ... if you are really interested, and even if you are just interested in linguistics and how language shapes our minds and perceptions, I highly recommend Izutsu's Ethico-Religious Concepts in the Qur'an ... just the first 30-40 pages and you'll get something of my point.
"You can't believe that 2+2=5, but you can trust that someone who tells you that." No you can't. If you're convinced they're wrong, that's the opposite of trust, unless what you trust is that they're obviously wrong.
Think he means if you want to believe it so bad you'll believe anything.
Bro i cannot fathom wtf QI was saying on this. So one is able to "trust" (believe) someone that says 2+2 =5 even if that is nonsense.
Was he using the word trust as a synonym for believe ?
@@waseem7195yes
And more like explaining the believers
Three minutes in and he's already admitted you just have to trust in order to believe. Not evidence. Just trust itself. Generally, that's called faith, but QI, seems to know that's not a defensible position, so he's calling it trust instead.
Yup. Just ignore all evidence, shut down your reasoning abilities, and trust that all the other believers, current and prior, believe(d) for good reasons.
Which is just sad.
Pretty much what faith is, and why it shouldn't be confused with belief.
10 minutes in and he just keeps burying the hole deeper for himself.
What a shame. I was hoping he was rational and just misinformed or ignorant but he's completely lost his wits.
Indoctrination and willful ignorance is one hell of a drug.
This guy: The Quran is the perfect inerrant word of God.
Also this guy: You're misunderstanding the Quran. Let me explain God's inerrant word to you better than God can. Because I can do that. Because I believe. Don't believe the critics because they don't believe.
Love it.
Yeah.. Aron you should start with the question: "do you believe your book of faith is the inerrant work of your god?
This guy wuold have answered yes, but it needs to be understood correctly. Then your question should be. How do you know your interpretation is correct?
No ... that is certainly not what I am saying. And I have never said the Qur'an is "perfect" ... if God wanted to send a "perfect" book, He would have done something very different. In facted, wouldn't have even needed a book. Just one verse would have been enough. The Qur'an doesn't need to be explained, but some obstacles to understanding it do need to be removed or overcome.
@@QuranicIslam So god sent a imperfect book, knowing the discord it would sow. And that was the 3rd in the series. And the first one was just a plagiarised collation of other peoples work.
And the biggest obstacle to understanding it, is the belief that it has anything to do with a supernatural being.
@@KianaWolf then one can openly just dismiss their claim.
@@KianaWolf then one can openly just dismiss their claim.
It seems to me that the Quran like any other religous text says exactly what the believer wants despite what the text actually says.
"I can't get away from my Muslim background?" Then how did Aron get away from his Mormon background? How did I get away from my Brethren background? How did my husband get away from his Catholic background? As far as I can tell, getting away from one's background is commonplace.
It takes intellectual honesty
If he has children he will force the same crap down their throats and continue the cycle of indoctrination.
@@Anonymous-md2qp which is child abuse 😤😤😤😤😤
Muslim are threatened with physical and bodily harm if they get out of Islam. That is in the Quran. So once one becomes a muslim, there is no getting out.
For this type of issue , one needs to take a psychedelic to truly objectively see their ideas
He kept saying the book taught morality, while agreeing it supported slavery. I would have pressed him on that asking when has slavery been more moral than consensual sex?
QI's position seems to be devoid of evidence and based entirely on the faith that the holy book of the religion into which he was born was coincidentally the real one. He's not defending belief in the Qur'an, he's arguing to replace evidence with feelings.
What I learned:
1. A great way to discuss is saying, "no, no, no, that's not it at all, we have to speak in length of this" and then not speaking in length of that.
2. The Quran says what it doesn't say and doesn't say what it says. Some things that it says over and over again should be accepted, some not.
3. The Quran teaches right things to do. And Muslims apparently do exactly that, as you can see every day in world politics. They are not killing people, not waging wars, etc.
4. The God decides and doesn't decide who believes. Whichever suits the context each time.
5. Waiting 100-200 years after the events until writing them down is a surefire way to guarantee the quality and authenticity of the content.
6. Person's background, religion, and language can be reasons why they don't "get" what the Quaran says. This, of course, cannot have anything to do with dishonest or wrong beliefs, believer's own background,, indoctrination into believing those things as facts (if for nothing else, then in the fear of death penalty) , and no way can there be any special pleading done. It's just true and everything else is wrong. Others might not just get it right.
7. The omission of details is rad and mysterious, and can apparently only help in getting God's message Clear.
8. A book of belief is not trying to teach belief, even though their God keeps repeating he insists belief in him. Which is one of those things that Quran says and doesn't say (see part 2).
There was also something about eternal hell not being eternal and eternal punishment not being a good punishment for finite wrongnesses but still being the only one used, but it isn't eternal after all, but honestly, they lost me there.
3) is true, actually! Plenty of Muslims - about as many as any other religious group - live perfectly normal lives all around the world. The ones who don't would almost certainly still be doing the same bad things if they weren't Muslim because of the economic and social conditions that they live in; they'd just have different justifications and rationalisations for their actions.
@@ungulatemanalpha I understand that, but for some reason there are so many belligerent Islamic contries/leaders still. Apparently some interpretations of the Qu'ran take the "religion of peace" part only if everyone's God is the same. Meaning you must spread Allah everywhere or die trying. :(
@@ungulatemanalpha No, it certainly is a chief motive behind their actions. Look at the world map where homosexuality is criminalized, for example, and you will see that it almost perfectly overlaps with countries where islam is an/the official religion. If these people were simply poor, they might steal and rob but that would have nothing to do with gay people. The same is true for oppressing women; it is caused by islamic theocracies, not "poverty". Stop blaming muh socioeconomic conditions and start blaming the real culprit, islam.
I always appreciate these videos. Thanks for doing these.
It's frustrating how often the reply to objections is "no, no, that's not what it REALLY means!"
"Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise."
Quran - Surah 4:56
...
"No."
Qur'anic Islam
I'm disappointed in myself, I just learned about the semen being produced in ribs and backbones according to quran. Such scientific accuracy. I must've of missed AP's episode on that.
"It doesn't say disbelief is evil, it says evil is disbelieving" 🤦
"I got stuck on all kinds of injustices on this and then I remembered them. I don't have a cultural need or an emotional attachment or an identify that's attached to this that causes me to gloss over this." My favourite line.
Aron: "It says 'unbelievers' in the English translation at least 60 times."
QI: "No."
We're listening to a two-year-old who doesn't want to take a nap. QI's entire strategy is argumentum ad nauseum. He's hoping to exhaust Aron in to accepting his position without ever presenting an argument or evidence. Just the conclusion, "No. No. No."
More than that, at this point, when he's telling Aron that the 60 instances of 'unbelievers' he can search in an English translation are not there, he's just gaslighting him. He's not even asking which translation. He's just insisting none of them say that in English at all.
Actually I thought he was saying that those were all incorrect translations and just said it wrong. Still weak though.
@@zemorph42 Obviously all 150 translations of the Qur'an made over 150 years all have it wrong. But this Japanese 'prodigy' has got it right. That is confirmation bias in the extreme. Arabic is not some magic language that cannot be translated, that is a fairy tale these people all desperately cling to.
@@Bert-Beukema It is true that most languages have concepts in them that can't be directly translated into any other language, but that's not evidence of their imaginary tyrant.
@@zemorph42 Aron has also being reading the Qoran with Arabic speakers. And they’ve talked about “unbelievers” quite a lot. Which suggests to me that it is there in Arabic.
@@zemorph42 I appreciate your logic and your willingness to speak out from it, even if I think your conclusion is wrong due to your lack of knowledge on the subject (unbelievers is an accurate translation according to many Arabic speaking Muslims)
"I don't want to make this a thing where you say the Qur'an say this, and I say, 'No, it doesn't.'"
Half an hour too late for that.
"The Quran is to be taken metaphorically, it is to be taken to make you a better, peaceful person, that is what you have to take ONLY from the arabic version,
it is the corrected, updated version of the previous perfect word of God, where too blatant discrepancies to reality were made vaguer,
all the scientific statements in the Quran are not important and can be ignored,
all the references to fighting and war are unimportant,
all the references to faith as only path to Heaven is not to be taken seriously,
take it in a way that it is to tell you how to be peaceful and good as you and your society understands it,
just take everything in a manner as it suits you best -
then the Quran is the perfect word of God, literally true to the letter."
In short: Beleve what you want to believe, you referencing that you do it because you believe in the Quran makes it RIGHT.
That is the great function of the Quran (or the Bible, or any other religious text, or any other cultish claim) being declared as RIGHT, it makes you RIGHT -
in whatever you do, you do not have to think because you are RIGHT by default, and you do not need to have ANY clue about ANY topic, you are RIGHT nevertheless.
So comfortable, so little (intellectual) effort required...
Exactly
This guy is a good example of how a mind of a person who decides to continue to believe, has the capacity to twist the sense of words to interpret the scriptures as they want to keep the faith. I can tell that his interpretation is not shared by the majority of the muslim community and he should have present himself as a coranist or a new kind of reformer instead to keep saying that we don't have a real good understanding of the Coran. It's very insulting.
So to test the truth of his claims, he looked for people who had stopped believing. Then he rejected their reasons as insufficient.
This is reversing the burden of proof. What he should have done is look for reasons to believe in the first place. And just "having faith" that Islam is true is not sufficient. Yes, he's using the word "trust," but he means to trust in something without sufficient evidence aka faith.
No, that's not it. Sorry I wasn't clear but I got taken away to too many other points before I could settle and make it clearer.
So it wasn't to "test" the claim. It was to understand what faith I had and why and why I continue to have it, by analogy of putting myself in the shoes of others who were most similar to me but who lost their faith/believe and trying to see "why", especially when others (also like myself) who are in the same situation and have the same information, continue to "believe" and "have faith"
Does that make more sense? I was trying to answer the question in practical reality "why do you believe" ... Not really "why I think it is true"
So basically, at the bedrock when you really dig down inside, I think it comes down to trust. The reasons to trust could be could or bad, understandable or not. But in the end we can choose to trust. And that's what people really mean by "religious belief" and why "faith" is a better word, and "trust" is even closer
Hope that helped clear things up.
@@QuranicIslam You sound like pastor Peter LaRuffa, who's quoted as saying that if the Bible said that 2 + 2 = 5, he would believe it, accept it as true and try to work it out and understand it. I.e. you put trust above reason. When you interpret and simplify the reasons former believers give for leaving the faith as losing trust, you have decided that *all* you need is trust, and if you eschew the question "why do you think it is true?" in favour of "why do you believe?", you thereby confirm that it doesn't matter to you whether Islam is true or not. Yes, the title of this video is "Why do you believe in the Quran?", not "Why do you think the Quran is true?", but to a rational person, the answer to the first question should depend on the second.
@@QuranicIslam
Of course you got taken away from your arguments.
The use of circular arguments not being allowed to finish because they start from an assumed conclusion and reroute back to it to support itself is completely fallacious.
"X" is true when it's shown to be, not before or in spite of evidence to the contrary.
Did you even hear what Aron said?
I ask that because it didn't happen to effect your position whatsoever, even in the most minute detail.
@@QuranicIslam If only you could have actually provided some of the reasons that form your trust and not wasted everyone's time
@@lucyferos205
Well I would have liked to. But, to be blunt, Aron turned into a barrage of his grievances against the Qur'an, which of course I'm not going to answer here. Check out Apostate Aladdin ... He had a "why do you believe" stream which I was in, and conducted it much better in actually allowing me to talk about why I believe and not listing why he doesn't. I think it was episode 2.
Faith is really a sad thing. The voluntary abdication of the ability to reason.
More importantly a huge ability to twist what is stated in black and white
@@gowdsake7103 As well. But this ability to distort is necessary for religious belief. Gods are lies, and they need lies to survive.
The problem and the most incredulous thing about religion is the optics of tribalism within that individual, of how it is "us and them". We are a freaking single species now and it is somehow within the minds of these believers that somehow they are special and those who are not within their system of belief are different. This I say, is such a great evil and a cause of stagnation for our mental evolution.
I was literally and categorically saying that isn't so. God will not divide people in terms of "believer vs disbelieve" but by actions. Yes, I know that needs to be substantiated from the Qur'an, and is even reject by almost all Muslims ... but as I said, majority and orthodoxy of religions are the result (more or less) of politics. I gave the example of the Trinity
@@QuranicIslam If God knows beforehand which people will do good and bad deeds, and then creates them, he is responsible for the evil in the world.
@@QuranicIslam WOW did you actually say that ?
And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful. Know that one ?
"fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem
And MANY more
The Quran and the bible are FULL of the command to kill anyone why disagrees THAT is divisive
@@andrewanastasovski1609
That's that old conflation of what knowledge is. Knowing something will happen, the knowledge itself, just don't cause it or make it happen. These two things are separate. People are responsible for the evil of the world. You can decide to go out now and slap the first person you see. But you'd be doing that ... it would be entirely on you, not on God.
@@QuranicIslam You have a different definition of knowledge? How convenient for your argument. If God knows what evil I will do, and God creates me, then God created that evil. There's no escaping this logic. You could however acknowledge that God probably doesn't exist, and be perfectly in line with logic. Maybe you believe that God is tricking you for some reason?
He's indoctrinated to believe in his god, and he's looking for reasons not to. Instead of questioning why he believes in the first place, he disregards evidence because it doesn't disprove the god he already believes in. That's the problem here, like with every theist.
Spot on.
That's not quite it, but isn't discounted either. I'm not looking for "reasons not to", and that isn't how we should go about it. I have lots of reasons "to believe/have faith" AND some reasons not to ... but here I was just trying to express my thoughts as to what I see lies at the bedrock of faith/believe in others, and so what I can only assume is at the bedrock of mine
Sorry guys 😒 doesn't look like I did a very good job of getting my thoughts across 😆 ... Though in my defense I didn't expect to be turned into an apologist and "interrogated" with a flurry of points that I knew there'd just be no way to strip down on this stream
@@QuranicIslam sounds like you have no idea why you believe what you believe.
Maybe ask yourself why believing a claim without evidence is ever a good idea. I'll avoid using trust and faith, since you flip them around whenever it suits your purpose. You have no evidence that god exists, yet you believe this god does exist. Why?
It's clearly not because of the Quran or any other book, because you say those books are not god's word and not perfect. So most likely it's because someone said so, or because you've been brought up in a culture where such beliefs are true and not to be questioned.
If you just want to believe this for no reason, that's fine. I used to believe in Santa Claus. But at least be honest about it. Don't try to obfuscate the fact that you believe without reason using storybooks or wild irrelevant claims.
@@QuranicIslam If you had been born in another continent you would have been part of a totally different religion or atheist. You are muslim because everything around you breathes Islam. It is inescapable and even bloody dangerous to merely think about apostasy. So you so what all the other people do who desperately want to believe: jump through the most insincere and ludicrous hoops. I wonder why people like you never actually ask themselves 'hey, I am an intelligent person, why do I so desperately need to believe in this?'. Instead you hide behind a mountain of lies and smokescreens. I think it is sad.
QI: You need this book by a Japanese linguist in order to understand the Qur'an.
Also QI: The Qur'an is clear.
I’m imagining an Islamic version of the enigma machine.
@@thelordjesus1136 The topic of the video is Islam. There're plenty of videos that address Christianity; please stay on the topic.
Sorry this reply comes so late, I just got around to looking at Mr. Ra's videos about the Qur'an.
This is what the Qur'an says regarding its' own clarity:
[3:7] It is He who revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are definitive; they are the foundation of the Book, and others are unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking dissent, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, "We believe in it; all is from our Lord." But none recollects except those with understanding.
or another translation:
it is He who has sent this Scripture down to you [Prophet]. Some of its verses are definite in meaning- these are the cornerstone of the Scripture- and others are ambiguous. The perverse at heart eagerly pursue the ambiguities in their attempt to make trouble and to pin down a specific meaning of their own: only God knows the true meaning. Those firmly grounded in knowledge say, ‘We believe in it: it is all from our Lord’- only those with real perception will take heed-
- Abdul Haleem
Going further the verses that are about events during the life of the Prophet blessings and peace be upon him can't really be understood without know the historical context, without knowing the history of those events. What does the vendor say at the stadium? You can't tell the players without a program. The hadiths have the history.
@@logicalmuslim1590 All so-called "scripture" make the same, or similar, claims about themselves. Those are claims that depend on assertions that have not been verified. The "history" largely is even worse; being made up long after the events.
@@zemorph42 wrote "All so-called "scripture" make the same, or similar, claims about themselves."
Kind of a broad statement.
Let's just take the Bible. In which chapter and verse does the Bible say this or something like it?
and also wrote "The "history" largely is even worse; being made up long after the events."
What evidence do you have that the history of Muhammad blessings and peace be upon him as understood by scholars is false?
We were all born atheists until someone started telling you lies.
Every time I see one of these ‘Why do you believe?’ videos, I recall your video, ‘Give the Devil His Due’ and the quote found within that video: ‘Don’t use reason on these people, they consider it evil.’ Too true, unfortunately, because most, if not all believers, do not want to see reason. They’d rather cling to the belief that they have some sort of divine purpose, followed by blissful posthumous promises (that will never be fulfilled) as opposed to confronting the reality before their eyes. And that’s without mentioning their books of fables, full of injustice, human rights violations, and atrocities. That alone speaks for itself.
Religion makes some good sales' pitches. Divine purpose, eternal happiness in an afterlife. I mean do those things sound like good offers? Sure. But the problem is none of it is true.
@@neonshadow5005 It is a great con. Lots of great big promises, but no follow through.
are you an AI?
Right
A ignorant society is easy to rule... it's all a diversion...
It's exhausting debating religious people
Mr Islam if just full of excuses, he can't just admit Islam is a pile of BS
He is trying to please his peers and his family based on indoctrinated systemic religion. Nothing more.
QI's already admitted he'd follow a source he knew to be incorrect. Of course he doesn't care if you prove his source is incorrect--he'll just say you're wrong, because he's already told you he's chosen to believe full stop.
lol yeah
As a former Catholic, then Evangelical, and then (finally!) an atheist (I was a believer for 45 years, and indoctrinated from birth) I can say that I personally had a lot of questions and doubts for a very long time.
Being raised in Christianity from birth and constantly surrounded by well meaning but ultra-religious family my entire childhood, Christianity was the bedrock that the foundation of my very personality rested upon. Also, the very first layer of that foundation (the “footers” that penetrated to the bedrock) was a deep rooted fear of hell and the fear of never seeing my loved ones again in the afterlife.
These deep rooted fears which penetrated to the very core of my being acted like a General Quarters Alarm, shrieking and wailing and clanging the moment I entertained a doubt in my head. These same alarms went off when I would have conversations with well meaning atheists who would ask questions of my faith (especially if they brought up things that I was already wrestling with). That repulsion from reality is a programmed involuntary response to something that is perceived to be a greater existential threat than a gun to your temple or the edge of a cliff, because they carried the (artificial) weight of eternal suffering in absolute agony.
Every person who firmly but un-aggressively pushed me and challenged me planted seeds that ultimately put down roots that penetrated just as deep as my fears. Eventually they were able to support me as the last vestiges of fear and terror of hell and the afterlife left me.
They also gave me strength to survive the horrible sadness and depression that followed as I really felt as though all my deceased loved ones had died a second time. I had to let go of believing that I would ever see them again. I struggled for several months with it before I stopped feeling grief and sadness as well as anger.
What stunted and probably delayed my growth and my flight from delusional thinking however were aggressive atheists and aggressive members of other faiths trying to delegitimize my beliefs. Any time my faith was questioned, I was immediately alarmed and defensive. That was an involuntary response. Anyone who aggressively challenged my beliefs immediately triggered a shutdown of rational thought and in return further strengthened my faith, undoing some of the progress I has made.
I think this is something that many people who were never raised (indoctrinated) in faith don’t understand. I don’t think they are intentionally being malicious but I also think that they can’t comprehend how someone can believe something that seems so agonizingly ridiculous. From the outside I agree but when I was a believer it seemed as real as the ground beneath my feet.
I wasn’t stupid when I was a believer and I am not smarter now that I am not. I was delusional and invested in a falsehood by a belief I was indoctrinated into at birth by well meaning people who were themselves indoctrinated at birth by others who were indoctrinated and so on.
Perfectly said … thank you
@@thelordjesus1136 Nope. I saw the light of truth. I can’t believe your religion of lies anymore than I can believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or that the moon is made out of cheese.
@@thelordjesus1136 We don’t need a fake god with a fake morality in a book of fairytales written by ancient middle eastern goat herders to paint the picture of a god that resembles an ancient middle eastern war lord.
You are correct that you weren't dumber then nor smarter now, but you were ignorant and arrogant just like the people who indoctrinated you, so please don't give us this bs about "...well meaning people who also were indoctrinated...", they were/are arrogant ignorant fearful morally corrupt monsters preying on children. You grew up and had the decency to at least think about the subject. You were one of these monsters, please don't defend the indefensible and try to repair the harm you helped enact on the world. Shame on you for trying to defend or exculpate these despicable villainous monsters.
QI, if you have to insist, "The verse is clearly not talking about that!" then then, clearly, the verse is not clear, because if the verse were clear, you would never have to insist that it were. Only unclear things require insistence like that.
Aron: "I cannot honestly say something is true without showing the truth of it."
The discussion is almost over and QI has only make bald-faced claims, refusing to provide any evidence.
'I believe because I trust the people who taught me my religion is true. And I trust the people who taught this to that people.'
That it is *this* hard to discern the "true" meaning of the qur'an, that you need a foreign linguist to clarify the Arab words in the qur'an, that is reason enough for me to doubt my trust in the people who explain the text to me. If a Creator-god lies (speaks untrue things) in one part of the book, then how can it be trusted in other parts? Man can't derive scientific truths from the verses in the qur'an that speak of the observable universe. Not everybody is equipped to understand difficult philosophical concepts, and to say that someone just should trust is dangerous. Because anybody can say that about any religious, philosophical and political position. Trump's favourite words: believe me. Trust is the basis for much abuse.
If so many hands have been in the pot, and religions change due to who is in power, how can you still trust it as the original word of a god? How come this god can't preserve his word against the powers in the world?
@@thelordjesus1136
Don't preach, please. My questions were rhetorical.
Acts 21:20-26
Paul divorced christianity from its jewish roots in Jesus. Most modern day christians follow Paul instead of Jesus. But even Paul predicted Jesus return within his lifetime. And Paul never talked about eternal torture in hell. That idea came from the gentiles.
The gospel of John, the only gospel that puts Jesus's return on the long run and that calls Jesus 'son of God' instead of 'son of man', was written late and most probably after Paul and any eyewitness had died. I hope you take *that* information away from your sources too. It is important for the interpretation of the gospels.
Yahweh chose Israel as his inheritance, leaving all the other peoples to the other gods. Translation matters, as well as which codex you choose. Please understand the implication of this. Jesus was a circumcised jew, adhered adamantly to the law of Moses and came for the lost sheep of Israel only (read Matthew and Mark). "All the world" never meant more than the known world of the people in that area and era. They didn't know the world like modern humans do. To Jesus it was all about how you treat your fellow (country)man, and about blessing and curse in this life. The kingdom he expected was an earthly kingdom where poverty, displacement and injustice would no longer exist. Hell was the destruction of your soul, the second death, and not some eternal torture. He might have started a new jewish sect, but he certainly didn't start christianity.
Since christians are divorced from their jewish roots they've replaced making amends to the person you've wronged with forgiveness by God in Jesus. There is absolutely no justice in that and undermines every concept of a just and loving god. It is not what Jesus taught, and even for Paul the works and the fruits were very important. The fruit of churches today is abuse on a massive scale. How could it not be? (Rhetorical question again)
So if the bible were true and to be trusted then there wouldn't be modern day christianity and all christians would be circumcised. And people would fear and worship Yahweh instead of some unbiblical and unnamed God.
Aron: "1+1=2"
QI: "no no no"
That's essentially how this entire conversation went. Even after listening to hundreds of hours of these types of discussions and debates, I didn't think such a level of delusion, dishonesty and denial was even possible.
No no, I don’t want to talk about the specifics you point out, let’s talk about the specifics I picked because they feel better. Yours aren’t supposed to be taken literally, just mine.
QI dismisses the insanity of the Qur'an by saying he's heard that before. "I've heard that before," is not an argument. The fact that you've heard it before and still don't have an sound argument just makes your position more embarrassing.
I know we all wish we could know what happens when we die. But we will not know until we die.
We do know. If you’re buried, you rot. If some of your organs are donated, they are used elsewhere for a little longer. If you’re cremated, then most of your sack of meat is reduced to ashes.
And since knowing anything is a brain function, we won't ever really know. When we die, our brains will be gone along with everything else.
We won't 'Know' when we die!, the brain won't function. Its being alive & having the proof that teaches us there will be nothing. There is a clue in the word 'Dead'
@@kevinparker461 Any "knowing" that we'll ever do has to happen now, while we still have these brains. I suppose you could say we can't KNOW there's no afterlife (bc how do we prove a negative), we can only suspect. Suspecting and knowing are both brain functions! Also, if there's a heaven, what of me could ever go there? Everything that makes me who I am will be gone with my body and my brain.
Taken literally, the books are all imoral.
Taken literally the Qur'an certainly is not ... and I'm only saying the Qur'an because I haven't really studied any other book.
@@QuranicIslam
You must be reading it with coke bottle thick qur'anic glasses.
@@davidwatson2399
Not much of a reply ... but fine. All we made was two counter statements. No backing to either one
@@QuranicIslam
I have no interest in holding some sort of a debate over a work of fiction.
@@QuranicIslam What you have shown time after time is it says in black and white and YOU say that is not what it means it has to be coughs INTERPRITED to mean this
First word out of his mouth every time he began speaking.
"No".
I'd get frustrated immediately.
My holy book is perfect because I can make words mean whatever I want them to mean.
Denial of the obvious here. When reading the Quran Muslims say it doesn’t say what it actually says.
Yeah ... i get that. But really I'm not denying the obvious. For you (I'm guessing) you can see that the Bible doesn't say Trinity. But that is what nearly all Christians believe. The Qur'an also doesn't say "unbeliever", but because that is what nearly all Muslims believe, that is what they translate. In the Qur'an Satan is an "unbeliever" while he is talking to God? No, but he is a "kafir". If you are really interested, download the book i mentioned by Izutsu, Ethico-Religious Concepts in the Qur'an .... just read the first 30 pages ... even not for the Qur'an it is a well worth read full on insights about language and how it shapes our perspectives on reality. Jus the first 30 pages. You'll see, from a master linguist prodigy fluent in over 30 languages, that it isn't so "obvious".
Let me know if you read it. Would be nice to hear what you think.
@@QuranicIslam You’re just the same as the Christians. They have a thing called bible study, which is an attempt to make their book say what it doesn’t say. Can’t you admit it’s full of nonsensical claims.
@@fossilfishleg9188 Hopefully, after Aron finishes his series, he can actually invite a secular western professor of Qur'anic studies or Islamic studies, who is published and peer-reviewed and working in university ... then he can ask/tell him these same things ... and you can see then how many times the said academic will say "no, that's not true and not accurate".
I think he has secular Bible scholars on sometimes, right? So hopefully one day he will get a secular Qur'an scholar.
I'm not talking "bible study" or "qur'an study" groups ... I'm talking academics who study the texts secularly. So look the up. I just mentioned one, but you want to pretend i didn't. So I doubt you are one who will read it and will just have to wait for Aron to invite someone on. Is that the only way you will get educated instead of just throwing assumptions and presumptions?
Age of information my friend .... you can actually read what trained academics say. Isn't that one of the things you'd claim to encourage? Then actually do it if you do.
@@QuranicIslam You can’t make your book say what it doesn’t say. You can get all the academics you want, it makes no difference.
How many fucking times does Mr Islam say "OK" LOL 😂
Replace "Ok" with "you got me on that one"
Cognitive dissonance is strong with this one. 😁
As is confirmation bias....
As 2 short planks, thick he is
QI couches all the accuracies of the Qur'an as *scientific* inaccuracies. Most inaccuracies are not scientific in nature. A news network may be entirely inaccurate and be totally unconcerned with teaching science. QI knows that the Qur'an is inaccurate period, he tries to divert the discussion into whether it's a science book or not, when that's irrelevant to how full of lies it is.
My only regret about leaving Christianity is that I didn't do it sooner.
14:40 Guy goes: I believe the Quran is the word of god. Aron gives a bunch of examples that we can "look at" and predictably, the other guy goes "let's not talk about that, but look at something we can 'look at'", and the launches into some drivel about how the Word of God is Vague when it literally says that the Moon and the Sun have the same size.. and this is the prove for this guy that the Quran is the word of God... And then goes on at 18:40 to admit that the word of god is wrong. So... what? Is god deliberately misleading here or is the quran written by faillable humans without the input of a god? But my favorite part is 19:00 where he goes "But i no longer look at this as being wrong, i just had to go to the mental gymnastics to somehow justify the fact that its clearly inaccurate to myself". Congratulations, man. You totally should apply for olympia with that level of gymnastic ability. "Its wrong, but i don't like it being wrong, so i need to find a reason why its not wrong".. brilliant, mate.
Yeah it was a back and forth and fluttering from topic to topic without being able to actually settle on anything to actually examine it. We didn't put a verse on screen and read it, did we? ... Anyway, I'd have to listen to it again, but I'm pretty sure we never got to settle on anything to really go into it
But ... that doesn't mean your comment here is true or accurate. Take just one point you bring up, which Aron brought up, that the Sun and the Moon are the same size. Let's take it step by step, and you show me where I'm doing "gymnastics" okay?
So firstly copy and paste where the Qur'an says the Sun and moon are the same size please. You or anyone else reading this
Science aside, do you think people like this person would be a danger to LGBT community and believers in non-Abrahamic traditions ?
@@khanhminhnguyen7274 lol ... hey! ... I'm in the room! 🤣 ... seriously, why not just ask me. Answer is no, I would not be a danger to the LGBT community and think any harm directed against them is wrong ... but I strongly reserve the right to not accept it "correct" or that it should be promoted everywhere as "the" normal. "The" normal that should be encourages is male with female.
And yes, I "accept" other non-Abrhamic religions ... but I accept their current renditions in the same way I do Islam; many parts are clearly false and due to the influences of people over the ages. But the kernel of truth, the simple teaching of humanity that you don't even need a religion to arrive at, is clear in a lot of other religions ... even if they aren't originally from God.
Does that answer those two questions?
@@khanhminhnguyen7274 Nothing of this has anything to do with 'Science', and everything with the guy admitting he knows it to be wrong and then explained that he then dismissed the possibility and contorted some reasoning as to why it has to be right.
As for your other question... yeah, i do. Not directly or personally, but by perpetuating an ideology (and religions are a form of ideologies) which allow the birth of extremists that will harm others in the name of their ideologies. And they will not just stop at the idea of assuming that half of humanity is only "half as much worth", or harming LGBT people... or "unbelievers"... but they will also destroy history and world heritage sites.
So, if he would sit in his corner and quietly believe in his imaginary abusive friend... i wouldn't care.. but he is out here trying to "defend" the indefensible with his mental gymnastics, goalpost moving and "god of the gaps" nonsense... so yeah, i do believe he is a detriment to society as a whole by perpetuating a harmful ideology, despite better knowledge.
@@QuranicIslam I have no interest in wasting my time with finding the exact quote for that. But just like Aron, i too remember the quran lesson they read it in, with multiple arabic speakers confirming the translation from multiple sources.
And since i already know from the other video that you will only move goalposts, i see no reason to actually waste my time with this. I am sure you'll weasel your way out of this one, when actually i provided an exact timestamp to you admitting to know its wrong and then going on by saying that you no longer believe it to be wrong, but have finally twisted it into a way you can believe it to be right.
I do not need the the Quran verse, since you yourself admitted there are inaccuracies in it, and then mental gymnasticed your way around that.
I got no time for someone with such a dishonest position, because regardless of what anyone says.. you will twist and turn and go "no what your eyes and ears are telling you is wrong, because you need to have my interpretation of things or this whole thing doesn't work, and you need to want it to work for it to work".
No, i do not need to want it to work. All i need to do is point at the ridiculous things in the book, and say "this obviously had no divine inspiration" or "this contradicts itself" (like the all knowing god that needs to run tests to know things he didn't already know, or the creator god that needs to create hell, while at the same time he could simply choose not to create those that would end up in hell)... to dismiss the whole thing as "made up by humans". Because until you prove the existence of the divine, i can prove that humans wrote this and that they weren't special or holy or any other type of humans than the corrupt, lying, deceiving, power hungry and greedy SOBs we have running around to day... selling people snake oil. And know how i can prove that they weren't special? Because the book they claimed to be the infallible word of the divine... is obviously fallible, contradicting itself and full of objectively despicable things, written with the "global perspective" of someone that never left their country, or knows how big the planet is.
Anyway, consider this my last reply. And i wish you a nice day. Unlike you... i am not here to convert you to my position.
This is the reason i love math books so much. The whole book can be shown to be true, and nearly everything in those holy books have to be faithfully believed with no evidence accept for the book itself. Like when people play practical jokes on me. All religion plays out like massive joke.
so basically the quran is not to prove gawd, reality, facts or ones faith...its just a book filled with stories that have no purpose at all..... Got It all along then.....
@@thelordjesus1136 the perfect word needs context and apologetics, 'free will' has to be enforced through the concept of hell and the need for believe without any empirical evidence is required ...
I rather think for myself and take responsibility without any threats or the hope for impossible reward (eternal life)
"You keep pointing out where I'm wrong, I don't want to talk about that"
Thank You Aron Ra for Video. I do want to meet You one. Im learning to think before i speak. Have a good day.
"...you know?...right?...you know, right?...right?...I mean, right?...you know?...right?...right?...OK, right?..."
I find these exchanges so so frustrating. I think that a pre condition to participate is that they answer questions clearly and directly eg explain why the clearly immoral things in these books is justified? Do not allow an answer that says, we can talk about it later.
Well ... Because I don't accept what the question already concludes. And I came in mainly "mentally" trying to think and explain "why" I "believe"
Wow I'm always amazed by believers ability to say lots of words but not really say anything at all.
It's funny how the youngest abrahamic religion claims to be the truth and best, when you need thousands of hadits? to explain the book. Same goes with the bible and tora, if they would be perfect words of god, no one should need to explain them to anyone, everyone would just understand them the sameway right away.
Why are believers so blind?!
@@thelord3561 Have you lost your mind? Your ramblings indicate that you might have.
So why are you writing this idiotic style? Are you able to show evidence that the bible is god's word and not just wrote by men?
You make lots of claims in your ramblings, care to back up any of them with actual scientific evidence?
@@thelord3561 So no evidence for god, just text wrote by men claiming things, got it.
There are millions of text about aliens and elves and trolls etc also. Does that mean those things are real? By your logic it does.
How can you be so close minded and blind?
Do you even understand what evidence is?
@@thelord3561 Bible doesn't reveal anything. People have tried to use bible for archelogy and failed miserable. Bible gets kings and city names correct but the times etc it doesn't get right at all. And well texts from that area should at least get names correct.
Doesn't prove anything about god tho.
@@thelord3561 So you basically have nothing, just word salad and empty assertions, got it!
@@thelord3561 You really have nothing. ou and sin is man made concept to rule over other people. Very idiotic concept.
I thought you were asking me personally…. Got my key board ready for an argument lol 😂 I’m a card holding atheist
But are you inner circle?
@@nagranoth_ no , can I join , I’ll pay you money and call you sir ….
@@angryatheist join what? lol
@@yash-sy3bz the inner circle ⭕️, sounds mysterious 😂
"So mr. Infallible Omniscience needs to test us for what he doesn't already know?"
Yeah ... that would take a lot to unpack and why would God test us anyway. I'll cut to the chase (maybe I should have in the conversation); 1) we can't be judged for what we haven't done, 2) there is more to come after "Heaven and Hell" ... there is something after that.
@@QuranicIslam in a sentence, what makes you believe there is life after death?
This was painful to watch.
The law says to maximally drive 100 or go to jail.
No it doesn't. It suggests for you to drive 100. You don't have to. You'll only be judged for your actions.
"No." is not an argument QI. You have to provide evidence of the absence of what Aron describes from the Qur'an.
The only responses where either non sequitur or "yeah, but...". I feel so sorry for this mr quran guy. His advocates should feel embarrassed.
Also, why didn't god make their 'word', 'meaning' clear?
Pity that we can never get a comment from god.
34:13 "hell is eternal, but the punishment inside is not infinite". Well, that's a first and let me tell you, a masterpiece. 👍
Him and I got into an argument about this. Basically he means that hell is an eternal place, but your time in it is not infinite. My understanding is that he believes that you can graduate from hell into another plain of existence, but hell will always exist as it’s own plain.
@@Pancakegr8 Yes. Sadly there is no evidence for this in the Qur'an and the hadith are all pretty clear that it is punishment for eternity even after the so-called judgment day. The whole notion that torture is a moral punishment is simply bogus, it doesn't matter how long you are tortured (like being flayed alive).
@@Bert-Beukema I agree, hell is just too extreme. Even mild punishment from god seems really silly to me because we have no governance in creating ourselves or our environments.
@@Pancakegr8i agree its a lot like a parent telling you to obey then leaving and not coming back for two thousand years, the fuck reason i have to obey when you aint here????? In the grand scheme of things humans would be infants their entire lives compared to god yet im trusted to be perfect like jesus was....., like come on that is just a bullshit thing to say, imagine we told a five year old "ok get a job, house, wife, children, pay taxes, ill be back in thirty years"
@@themanwithnoname1839 It’s blatantly contradictory, and unfortunately there are some really adamant Muslims on the internet. I actually had to start blocking some of them because their takes are so infuriating. Dumb shit like
“Music is haram”
“We can’t have morality without a moral giver” or
“porn is bad but child marriage is okay as long as the parents consent to it”
Knowing that these scum have millions of followers and are making money by poisoning other people’s minds causes me to become depressed.
34:20 Wait. Wait wait wait. Punishment in hell is NOT infinite, but being condemned to be there IS? What the hell are they all doing down there after their terms of punishment are up? Playing cribbage? Pinnacle? Shuffleboard? Or are they all just all standing around twiddling their thumbs for all of eternity (or at least until their alleged "Day of Resurrection", which might as well be eternity for all intents and purposes)?
Edit: Oh wait (again). Is he saying that punishment in their hell in ongoing UNTIL their alleged day of resurrection? I is so confused by all this mumbo jumbo.
So in the end, believers of all shapes and sizes come with the same amount of dishonesty! "You really don't understand my book", they always say.. Shameful.
There was so many Jedi mind tricks on display here, I almost felt a disturbance in the Force.
Whether the Qur'an is trying to teach science is irrelevant to whether the claims it makes are true. The absurd claims about reality are in there. They are false. The book that makes those claims is a book of falsehoods. Whether it's supposed to be science is irrelevant to whether it's inaccurate.
The funny thing about all this is that Qur'anic Islam makes points that are completely contradictory to other Islamic scholars, into which they would consider him not even a muslim. The real question is: who has the correct interoperation of Islam? They cannot answer this as every Islamic country believes that they have the correct interoperation and they disagree with each other on this constantly. If they cannot get this right, then why even follow it at all?
God can do anything but just show up and take his chances as to who accepts him and who rejects him on evidence.
This QI is in painful, unbearable denial.
Specifying not to kill a soul that god has sanctified implies that there are souls that are not sanctified that you may kill. That's like blowing so hard on a dog whistle that everyone notices as your face turns purple and you pass out.
A guy named Yeshua=Joshua in English, called Jesus (Greek), meaning to save, to rescue, had the mission of spreading the word and the love of his father, unknown, and to die to SAVE us, mysteriously, from the original sin that none of us committed AND in 3 days he resuscitated !!! That's my kind of savior. He did not really died.
How do we know ? Well, followers of his disciples wrote what they've being told, 100 or 200 years after the disparition of their master in the sky.
That's such a nice story... Next week, Mahomet, totally crazy stuff.
everytime muslim says alright or ok IS a disagreement
I’ve noticed a trend amongst Muslim apologists that whenever they reference a verse in the Quran, they first read it out loud in Arabic, and then give the English translation.
Why? The guy you’re talking to doesn’t speak Arabic, why do they keep doing that?
because it's a custom for Muslims to do, and i think its required to speak the verse in Arabic maybe i don't know
Aron Ra, great conversation. Oh, I'm editing this in,, we're not puppies and kittens, we're your 'monkey mob!' lol. I wonder if this guy realizes he sounds the same as every other believer who rationalizes his belief in something that is so obviously wrong and bad. To me, arguing over the details in all of religion is sort of just needed to plant the seeds of doubt for each new kid, hearing other than their religious parents or preachers, now. For those of us who've discovered, by reading said books, cover to cover, and seen how alike they are, plus how they came about, it just emphasizes how primitive and inane it is as a whole. Thankyou for going through the tedium so we needn't. As I said, it is good for those just emerging from the control of their sheltered schooling. 👍👍👏🥰💖✌
Damn right I lost my trust! I was never super religious and I’ve had doubts since I was a kid. Now that I’ve THOUGHT CRITICALLY I realize ALL religion is a SHAME
This is why Aron should be a regular host of The Atheist Experience. There was lots of good discussion, respectful debate and disagreement, no yelling at each other, and the guest was allowed to talk long enough to explain his points. Well done, Aron!
this was the most frustrating video i've seen. he basically made so many statements and when you brought it up he straight up denied he ever made those statements
Aron... I really liked your observation of the incorporation of Zorroastronism into the Christian view of the duality of good and evil and satan's role within that...very nice 👌
A lot of Muslims would disagree with this guy. Especially in many of the countries populated by Islam. Does he not know that death is a penalty for apostasy in many of these countries.
I'm 12 minutes in and this guy it's too confunsing , I try to listen but he keeps mixing faith and trust , belief and trust...I'm sorry 👎👎
Its his stupidity, i find that the most confusing.
I'm going to hazard a guess that his answer is "I believe the Quran because I was taught to believe the Quran by people that also believe the Quran, I have listened to those that do not believe the Quran and I chosen to ignore them because the Quran is perfect... also I have been told i should be put to death if I stop believing the Quran"
tl;Dr?
"But my holy book!"
Aaron knows his stuff but this Apologist just says no that’s not right and will tell you what it’s not and never tell you what it is. Every apologist does what this Muslim guy did. Tell you what it’s not and never what it is. Why do these religious people keep coming on here just to get demolished. I’m sure Aaron enjoys it but these apologists have a sick fascination with getting told all their beliefs are wrong.
lol ... well, it didn't mostly become that ... "it says this" vs "no it doesn't" ... which isn't very useful. That's why I suggested what I did at the end, so hopefully next time we can actually get into the meat and bones. Adn I'm not an apologist, though admittedly here i was kind of forced into that position.
Adult men running a box is going to impress their god?
😂🤣😂🤣🤗
Really?
THE GREAT ROCK.
I can't watch any more of this. It's painful
A lot of cherry picking by Qur'anic Islam.
Actually that is what "normal" Islam does ... i am adamant that all the Qur'an stands together.
Don't murder?
Sooo....the towers just jumped in the way of those two ✈️✈️'s?
🐂💩!
Haha
And the population of Jerusalem just threw themselves onto the spears and swords of the Crusaders of the 1st Crusade?
@@andybrace9225
Well said!
another thing that cracks me up about religious people is oh you didn't read it right or you didn't understand or take away the rightful meaning like everybody in the world can read it but they have the only right interpretation of itright there should tell you that it's filled with nothing but lies because a lie can be told a hundred different timesand 100 different ways and it's still is a lie if you change things about a fact it's no longer a fact it's a lie
I predict this is going to be another;
"I can only understand it for you, not explain it to you" conversation...
Thank you Aron. You did very well. He wouldn't know the truth if it bit him.