In the old days running abs I used to run a heated chamber at 45c or so -113f. I found two things helped. 1 keep the chamber hot for 20min after print is done and that prints done in a heated chamber were both stronger and had virtually no warp. A mixing fan helped keep the chamber gradient proper.
@@RobertCowanDIY I have an X1C and I slow down to 60mm/s cover the top window and door gaps and will slowly ramp down the heated bed after printing for 30min to 1 hour. Parts are super flat and close to tolerances.
I've got email in december from Prusa to complete my 2T XL purchase, and still haven't completed just because I am waiting for the enclosure release. Very disapointed that they let community finish their product for such price tag, years of development and delays. I think that for the money we pay and for the 360mm3 build volume enclosure is mandatory not optional.
I wouldn't expect Prusa to come out with the enclosure anytime soon. The front and sides are easy to enclose. The top will need some extra parts but it shouldn't keep you from getting the XL if it is something that would work for your needs.
@@hitf5 Its more of a principle. It would cost me approx. 3000$ incl. shipping and import fees for 2T XL kit... and I don't want to use shower curtain or pay for third party enclosures just to be able to print PLA/PETG/ASA without warping in my garage.
@@brezovprut4431 Understood. That would be a problem with any printer that was not enclosed in a garage. You should check out a Voron - they are designed to be enclosed and you can get a similar build volume for half the cost (though you would have to build it yourself.)
I have a XL. I honestly don’t think it’ll be a great printer for high-temp materials because the bed doesn’t have much thermal mass. My Voron does ASA, ABS, etc wonderfully with its giant heat spreader and AC bed heater. My enclosed Prusa Mk3 can’t get even close to the same quality and I doubt an enclosed XL would, either. The bed is all wrong and the tubes up top prevent enclosing with minimal air volume. It’s wonderful for PLA and PETG but get a different machine for ABS and such.
Hey! I agree with you on both counts. It's a really neat printer, but SHOULD be enclosed with that price tag. Having one in person though, you can see how the build quality is a bit different than most consumer-level printers.
I would like to add that ABS and ASA don't only "smell", they actually release styrol fumes which are toxic (and if I am not mistaken can cause cancer) hence the headache. If you print that stuff on a regular basis you need to think about some kind of ventilation. Great video, thanks!
I like the humidity at 16%. So if it is below zero outside, you can dry your filament by taking it out of the bag. I'm in Florida. The humidity is 60% in the winter. My dry box running non stop can get down to 20%. Right now it is at 38%. The dry box is just a tuperware cereal box with silica, rice, a reptile heater, spool holder, temp/humidity gauge, and filament guide. This way I can dry the filament, and print with it at the same time.
Tent isn't bad, but a dedicated enclosure definitely helps. I used an Ikea Lack enclosure to print all the ABS parts for my Voron V2.4 on a Prusa MK3S, and it's in a room with the vent closed and was done in the summer. I also have an X1C which isn't bad either, but I find it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as the Voron does. My Voron will do massive ABS/ASA prints without a care in the world, but that's what it's designed for. It'll be interesting to see what either Prusa or the community makes for truly enclosing the XL.
If it wobble due to fast bed cooling, maybe a Gcode in the end could help slowing the process down. Not shure it works: M140 S80; temp 80c M04 S30; wait 30 sec M140 S75; and so on
Yeah, someone else mentioned this and that's probably the way to go. OR, I could just wait until this cold snap ends and go back to printing when it's a reasonable temperature out there.
So a nice video. I have one idea to try maybe. You can edit the end-code and leave the bed turned on for some time for example at 80 and slowly bring the temperature down with time. Maybe this can help with your problem with XL.
This definitely helps, I have logged over 300 hours of ASA printing on my X1C, this one made the most difference by far, I set mine to automatically turn down 10C every 15 minutes.
Would be interested to see how well this would work on taller parts, usually they are the most troublesome in terms of cracking and warping. Also one tip I have for printing ASA/ABS is leave the print attached to the plate in the enclosure and gradually decrease the bed temperature, you can write some end process g code to automate this, I set mine to drop 10c every 15 minutes. From my experience this is especially true for bigger and taller parts, removing them immediately after print usually will result in cracking.
I suspect I would have had issues considering how cold the rest of the shop was. I think if I could keep it warmer it would be mostly OK. But the parts cooled down too quickly once the heated bed turned off. But as you said, some ending gcode would fix that.
Was interested to see your results. I'm printing the last parts of the SUMO enclosure from 3D SOURCERER for my XL. I tried to print some of the parts in ABS and could not get good results. Ended up printing it all in PLA. I'm hoping I can print more difficult material with it installed
Gotcha. I've looked at that, but got really burned by PrinterBox or whatever I got for my MK3. I'm a little leery of enclosure kits after that. I'd either make my own or wait to see what Prusa comes out with.
I love Polymaker ASA. Fantastic filament. I use it for all my custom air ducts for my printer cooling. Prints almost as nicely as the PLA Pro. You definitely need to leave it warm for a while and cool it slowly.
A brim or mouse ears is what I use on the X1C to help if a print is warping, rather than glue. If on a specific print that's not enough, then aquanet hairspray works really well. This is for both ASA and PETG on the engineering plate. Most prints work great on it without a brim, and just using windex on the plate.
Gotcha. I kinda avoid sprays or anything on the build plates because it tends to be messy (for me). I also avoid brims or mouse ears because I usually add a 0.5mm chamfer on the bottom of the parts for aesthetic reasons and that kinda messes it up and I don't like cutting off brims, I think it looks sloppy. But that's my my own personal viewpoint!
Just dump that horrible plate and get the textured plate. Asa and abs is child's play on the x1c print better than pla for me. Drying your filament is overlooked by a lot when it comes to asa and abs.
@@RobertCowanDIY I totally understand, and agree with you, and prefer to do the same chamfer on the bottom like you mentioned, but a lot of the time I just don't because that chamfer is actually a big reason to cause the warping. And I'd rather have a print without the chamfer that doesn't warp and that I don't have to slather the plate with glue for it to stick.
One thing I've come across in my testing of using full enclosures on my printers is that the cold end can no longer keep up and heat creep causes jams. I wonder if that is the main reason why the XL hasn't done an enclosure for it yet. The only counter I can think of is to water cool the cold end, but that has its own risks involved, especially being around electricity and having moving parts. There are quality water cooling kits out there for printers, but does a company like Prusa want to potentially have a liability problem if something goes wrong? Also I seem to remember something about Prusa having plans to integrate enclosure equipment as an add on in the future since they have many modular attachment points.
This is highly dependent on the material. Heat creep is usually more a function of the material. PLA is VERY susceptible to this. Materials with a very low glass transition temperature will prematurely deform when the ambient temperature is too high, causing them to jam the extruder. ASA and ABS have a very high glass transition temperature and don't deform under normal printing conditions (even with a very hot enclosure). Since most people print with PLA or PETG, this is more of a concern.
I constructed a couple enclosures for my MK3. This first was a carboard box with a 100W incandescent light in it. That helped the bed quite a lot with heating the chamber, but it wasn't quite enough to get the reliably straight ABS prints I was after. ABS wants around 50C ambient, so stepped up to a a couple small 120V heaters controlled by a cheap temperature controller. I can get dead straight ABS prints anytime I want now, but now I want to do it with PC. That needs a high enough temperature that my MK3 controller shut down. (Apparently, there's a sensor onboard somewhere). Next up is CF-PC with the heated chamber to minimize residual stress, but I haven't run that experiment yet. I moved on to other things while waiting for an Obxidian nozzle.
Just be sure to cool the extruder motor, and print the idler door from ASA, because petg one will warp at around 45-50c under stress of the spring. Otherwise, mk3 is very capable of printing ABS, and even better at printing ASA.
I also had issues with the default Bambu ASA profile. I think the bed temperature is far too low. I set my bed temp to 120 and nozzle to 265 and have been printing without any adhesive with no issues since, at least with Polymaker ASA.
PolyLite ASA spec sheet calls for 75 to 95C for the bed, so it's not Bambu, since the manufacturer themselves recommend these values. Controlling ambient temp is more important, as well as annealing the part after it's done.
Just my experience here. I almost always print with PETG. I started using an enclosure and noticed the quality is much better. As far as having an affect on strength, I've not done that kind of testing. My prints are much smoother and I rarely have issues after adding the enclosure.
Nice, thanks for posting the video. I’m about to try printing ASA for the first time on my MK4, and I’m not quite finished building my enclosure. Seems like the best thing would be to finish the enclosure, throw on a satin print bed and let er rip.
The curtain should be adequate for low (sub 1") tall priints, but any taller prints that don't get primarily heated from the bed will end up cracking in the later layers. Try printing a tall print in ASA or ABS, on an un-enclosed printer this won't go well. Plus, even if you do get a part that is acceptable I can assure you the layer welding will be considerably weaker without a chamber temp in the 60-80 C range.
I've notice that by clamping the parts to a flat surface as soon as I take it off the build plate, until the part finish cooling down. It seems to help keep the part from warping as much. 👍
I'm a newbee to 3D printing and I appreciate your honest reviews and love the fact that you show the positives and the negatives. I'm trying to decide between the Bambu Lab X1 Carbon and the Prusa XL. I love what Bambu Lab offers for a user that just wants to print, not tinker and its enclosure. However, I find that Bambu Labs' X1C's build volume is so darn small. I love the bigger build volume of the Prusa XL and its 5 extruder heads which renders way less waste but would have preferred the Prusa XL in an enclosure. That being said, I love your "home made enclosure solution" for the Prusa XL to make a difference in the quality prints that require "sensitive" material. In your opinion, is the Prusa XL to much to handle for a first 3D printer purchase. Its price tag is hefty for a first purchase. Is there a chance that Bambu Lab would release an X1C with a bigger build volume? You feedback would be greatly appreciated. And yes, I did Like and Subscribe!
Another great video thanks. At those temps I suspect you may not be getting anywhere near full strength ASA parts, but of course that may not matter for your project. The real magic starts to happen for ABS at over 80C. Enclosure temps for professional printers printing ABS are normally set at 80C and I suspect similar for ASA. You may also find different glue sticks work better with different filaments. I use Magigoo PC both as a bed separation agent (to stop some of the stickier filaments like TPU sticking too much) and also as a maximum strength glue stick for nylons, ABS and ASA . I also use an FR2 (bakelite) surfaced flex sheet from Mueller, which is cheating a bit. Another way to build a cheap ghetto enclosure is to glue 30mm sheets of polystyrene together to form a box that you can place over the printer. I cut an opening and pressed a small sheet of lear acrylic into it as a viewing window for my Prusa. I could get temps up to 50C this way on my Prusa bed slinger.
You might be right. I wonder what the ambient temp is right near the print though. It was 100F (in the earlier tests) about a foot away, near the wall). I would suspect right near the print bed it was quite a bit hotter.
@@RobertCowanDIY good point. That heat might be too localized close to the bed for a taller print (although heat does rise of course) to keep the whole print hot to also prevent warping on taller prints....but it might be enough to achieve good strength. I need to do some testing, I think.
I haven't watched the video, but I bought the Sumo Enclosure. I've found that printing in an enclosure provides better results even when printing PETG vs. no enclosure. In addition I want to contain as much VOCs to the enclosure as possible. I run a Hepa filter with carbon on all my printers that circulates the air in the enclosure. I don't want to vent the enclosure because I'm trying to maintain temperature inside the enclosure. I print ASA just fine with my mk4 in the Prusa Enclosure. I preheat everything for about 45 minutes before starting the print. Looking forward to watching tonight when i get some time. I'm sure it's good content.
I might have to check that out, but for $300 and I still need to print all those bulky parts? I dunno... I can easily cut acrylic on my router, I would probably just design my own.
@@RobertCowanDIY Believe it or not I thought it was actually fairly priced compared to what else is out there for the XL and less expensive than the current MK3/4 enclosure that Prusa makes at $349. I agree that making your own is probably the cheapest route of you've got the time.
i print ASA all day, every day on a bambu x1c ... in case this helps someone ... with no warping -- i use the engineering plate with purple aqua net, 100° build plate
I used to put a small desk heater in my encloser with a plant heater heat controller to control enclosure temps. It was great for ASA. Might work for you. You could hold it at 50C after its done printing and drop it down after its uniform. On the wet filament thing - some manufacturers run the filament through a water bath in the extrusion process so it will be wet until its dried. I don't know what they use to dry their spools or if theyre just blown off. So most new filaments will contain some moisture.
About to have a go at ASA on my entry level Creality v3 ke - have built a plexiglass enclosure for it. Good times.- Styrene (not styrol as another commenter put it) fumes are a suspected carcinogen, and neurotoxic. So I’ll be using a small PC fan at very low rpm to vent fumes outside. One other thought is that warm air holds more moisture - so maybe a bowl of silica beads might help too.
Glad someone brought up creep and PLA. I have had to re-print parts in ABS to replace PLA parts that permanently deformed. ASA is lower density than PLA so you get more length per 1KG spool.
Nice idea. Well, I am still looking for a printer. I am new to this stuff and still gather info. It looks like my dream printer would be an XL with 5 heads, enclosure, with heating but 1k cheaper. Guess I still have to wait some years. Nevertheless it's very interesting to see the evolution. 👍
That's a really nice cheap and easy first thing to try. My first attempt a decade ago was a huge cardboard box. I like 60C enclosure temps for styrenes (ABS, ASA & HIPS). I don't have any Prusa machines though.
I'm printing on the MK4 Enclosed with ASA right now and I got some lifting off the bed. I had to restart and use some glue stick. I think it depends on the structure. My print was long with relatively thin walls so I think the constant throwing of the bed loosened up the print. Nice idea with the shower curtain.
Be careful, parts of the mk4 are in PETG and might not be suitable for higher temps enclosure settings. Make sure to print spares at least just in case
When I received my 5-head Prusa XL, I mostly had stinky ABS to work with (it was the only material my previous printer could reliably print). Needing an enclosure for drafts, I simply cut the packaging it came with in the shape I needed. The box is bigger than the printer, and I could surround it pretty reliably. Still waiting on the official enclosure, though. Even the accordion-like draft shield presented way back when would be good.
Yeah, I'm going to move the XL over to my new printer station and it will most likely be a better environment for it. But a real enclosure would be nice.
We’ve done a project similar to yours and the right material for your project is Polymide CoPa. Unless very high wear requirements or self lubrication properties are needed we find that it’s a good material. We pretty much print 90% of our parts in CoPa and the rest with more expensive nylon blends but they need 75-90deg chamber temp which is impossible on the Prusa.
@@RobertCowanDIY Celsius. Some PA6 nylons we print for our customers are strong as f*** but require chamber temp over 75 otherwise any parts over 100mm long warp and loose dimensional accuracy with unpredictable shrinkage while printing.
Printing a ton of ASA on an x1c, I can say that by lowering the nozzle temp to about 260c, increasing the bed to 110c, and slowing the print speeds to 50%, and running silent mode, using the engineering plate, It works best with zero glue stick. All prints pop off extremely easy after cooling and are absolutely glued to the bed while hot. I actually have cupping on some parts instead of peeling up, so my bed temp may even be too high. 😂
Haven't had any issues with ABS on my X1C using the stock profile. I've also had very little problems getting my MK3S to print ABS. Never use glue stick on either printer with anything other than PETG to keep it from sticking too much.
@8:55 you say that there is no way to adjust the "squish" you had ample amounts of? There is still a live z adjust, just like their other printers. You can adjust the z while printing. Slow the print down if you need to.
My understanding is that glue stick acts as an adhesion barrier, keeping it from sticking too much. I've never heard that it would actually improve sticking like you're saying on the bambu.
Really? It absolutely helps it stick. In the early days of hobby 3d printing, before fancy build plates, it was used with glass sheets because glass didn't inherently stick to plastic well.
Please use one type of temperature readings not 260°C for 3D printers while showing us 56°F your room temperature. It is pretty confusing sometimes, specially when showing your "chamber" heat 96°F. Thank you mister, great info overall.
I want and need the enclosure with an included advanced air filtration to protect from VOC and such, ASA is nasty, and it will sips through your doors into your living space, not that good Furthermore, the ambient temperature will directly impact the strength of the printer with ABS / ASA, so you want it at 60C at least.... You will notice it more when the prints are taller...they will wrap as well, even without any draft ,they just shrink too fast because of low ambient temps That's why we need an enclosure, drafts are easy to solve anyhow
Thankfully there's a mudroom connected to the door going into the house, which travels through a laundry room and then through a hallway. There are 3 doors between the shop and my actual living space.
I have printed in both ABS and ASA on the satin bed without a enclousure but in my small office without much of any issue. The key for me was a high temp bed adhesive (the Nano polymer stuff because i hate glue sticks) , normally I would use my voron but I am printing parts for it so it is currently offline. I find ABS to be a more reliable bonder to the bed ASA is nice though and is far easier to remove… that said I feel like ASA looks more matte than ABS but yes do i hate the ABS smell… I miss my voron’s enclosure and the nevermore carbon filter.
It’s interesting that you mention the too much squish on your XL. I’m suffering from elephant foot on mine and I can’t find a good solution for it. I keep wondering if it’s my fault that my printer is getting the first layer too low or not.
They did have that bellows shroud in one of the expositions they went to and they Possibly had it in the announcement vid too. The lack of top hat is probably more of an issue For large helmet sized abs prints. As all vorons are near fully enclosed.
The XL is a good machine, but for ASA or ABS in a cold environment you need an enclosure. If there is no draft and the room is at room temperature a top cover is not needed. The firmware however is not finished yet
I'd agree with this. It was a less-than-ideal test, but I think that's better than showing it in perfect conditions. BUT, I've been printing for several days since making that video and it's been fine with only minor cosmetic issues (parts are functionally fine otherwise). It does work, just not ideal.
Yes, they are necessary. On a budget machine, sure, its not going to be a priority. On an expensive machine its just needlessly limiting what you can do with it. I have done the temporary enclosures and draft blockers and its always just an exercise in frustration with occasional victories but still less than ideal results and lots of waste. Once I got my first fully enclosed machine I never ever considered anything else. Thin or small parts can be OK, but the thicker the print the more warping and cracking you will get without proper temp control. For truly worry free ASA and ABS where I can just not worry about the part I keep the chamber over 55C and just print on bare PEI. I haven't had a failed or not great print for months. Even very large and thick parts, zero warp. It really does become just as easy as printing PLA once you can keep the temperature high and stable. As soon as the machine stops I can swap the plate and start the next plate while the first cools down and the parts release themselves as they cool. I sometimes put the just printed plate on top of the machine so it cools more slowly but that's usually only in winter. I use active heating for the chamber and I really believe they will become more common in off the shelf machines.
Good to know. I printed a lot of nylon in the past and with the printer inside a fairly small closet, it worked pretty good. I never had a failed print due to warping, etc. BUT, that was inside a temperature controlled environment, dumping heat inside a small chamber. I look forward to a 'real' enclosure for the XL.
Like always Great video. I'm a former tool maker of 50 years, I have worked on a maultatud of prototypes with pretty much every machine known to man. Convention lathes, milling machines N.C., CNC's and the list goes on. Excellent job on your video. I got in to 3D printing about 5years ago and I have a prusa MK 3s , making parts for inventions, looking into this new XL machine. What do you think over all , I need a bigger surface area to further with my prototypes. And if you could maybe help me with adjustments to making better prints. Thanks Mike W.
If the middle lift ups reduce the build plate temperature after first layer. I had this problem with an enclosed and chamber heated to 50c (Celsius 😅) Voron 2.4 R2 too.
Cool trick with the heat gun. I found ASA very finicky with temperatures of the air around, and had to use a heated enclosure and have the air temperature at 35C to get good prints. Any cooler and ran into issues.
@@RobertCowanDIY In cleaning, I found sample flat prints I did with ASA trying get a better finish on the top side. Don't remember all the markings on the back side, but apparently 95 and 260 gave the best result. :) This is why we have computers to remember things for us.
By any chance, could we get the parameters you had for the bambu X1C that has the best resut? I tried ASA with this printer and i have hard time getting good results like your part.
They got bogged down with other projects and made the decision to release it without an enclosure. They screwed up IMO. I suspect we'll soon see an enclosure option.
All I did was change the speed on the perimeters. I think it was 75 for the outer wall and 150 for other perimeters and adjusted the number of top and bottom layers.
What do you mean when you say @13:48 “you use this one (Bambu) to tweak and tune the other ones” you started all this ASA experiment with bambu and that help you fine tune the other printers?
Kinda? I was using 3 different slicers (Prusaslicer for the XL, Bambu Studio for the X1C and Orca for the K1), and they all had different settings for the stock ASA profiles. Since the X1C had the best print overall (except for that first test), I looked to see what was different with it's profile and tweaked the others based on that. Does that make sense?
My favourite related material is HIPS Very cheap. Matte and pretty. Not actively hygroscopic. Not all that floppy, it's not PETG. Better UV resistance than ABS. Does not degrade in the hot-end as quickly as ABS. Little die swell. Good pressure control, does not ooze. It has that volatile poison but not too much of it, an order of magnitude less than ABS. Dimensionally very good, little shrinkage. Accepts sanding, painting and glue. Does not dissolve in acetone but can be welded with acetone. I can usually just print it open frame and instead of draft shielding i do the opposite, i just blast a little constant air on it, like 5-10% fan speed. Yes i'm sure i'm locking more tension in there than necessary but it works. You try that with ABS and it's a catastrophe. I don't know why HIPS gets treated as a joke, i think it's one of the best most versatile 3D printing materials. Bed adhesion is a little difficult. 100°C-ish and PVP coating helps.
@@RobertCowanDIY Compared to ASA, it is poor in these regards; but even when degradation by all reason should set in, it suffers less than ABS. ABS i could preheat the nozzle and then just crumbly shit would come out a mere 20 minutes later, because the material has thermally degraded in the meltzone. With HIPS, i have not been able to accomplish that in any humanly timeframe.
@@RobertCowanDIYHIPS with limonene is actually the only dissolvable filament I’ve found that really works like it’s supposed to. I’ve had mediocre and frustrating experiences with Ionic, PVA, PVA+ - even paired with their “intended” filaments (NylonX, PLA, etc.) So much so that other than ASA+HIPS, I usually just use the primary filament as a breakaway support and deal with the slightly ugly undersides.
I'm pretty sure that you've made a wrong question: does prusa xl actually worth it's price if you have to wrap it in cellophane to print "advanced" filaments
Price is relative. If you have no food and clothes, even if it printed metal and ultem it's not worth the money. If you have a billion dollars and NEED to print large format dissimilar materials, it's worth every penny. You either need the abiities it has or you don't. If you don't need what the XL does differently than other printers, it's a waste of money. But it does some things that no other printer can do. It sounds like you just want people to say the XL is overpriced garbage so you can feel superior.
Thanks! great vid. Which of these UV resistant filaments > ASA, PCTG & PETG are 'strongest'? Speaking of those which UV resistant filament would you recommend for functional parts... eg a shed door handle?
If you're referring to strength as rigidity, ASA would probably be best. But I don't have any experience with PCTG. But it doesn't sound as rigid as ASA/ABS. Other than the fumes, ASA really is pretty neat for functional parts. It checks a lot of the boxes!
I'll also note something else I've discovered when printing higher temp materials in an enclosure. You need to let the whole machine sit at the elevated temperature for awhile before starting the print. Here's why. As you print in the enclosure the machine slowly heats up to that elevated temperature in the enclosure and starts to grow because of the elevated temperature. This expansion causes the relationship between the print surface and the print head to change throughout the print. This can be minimized by letting the entire printer heat up and do it's expanding before you start the print. This allows the printer to pick up the bed at the expanded size. Part of the reason that it warps when heating up is that the printer is made of multiple different materials, primarily steel and aluminum, which don't expand the same rate as they heat up. Hope that makes sense. Anyways I've had much better luck allowing the printer to heat soak before starting so that things stay consistent during the print.
@@RobertCowanDIY That's interesting, but I mean the entire machine needs to heat soak, aka the frame. This takes longer than 10 minutes. You could test this by taking a temp reading on the frame before and after the print. My suspect is after a multiple hour print you'll see that the frame is much warmer at the end than at the beginning. I definitely do with my MK's in an enclosure.
@@bluerider0988 Oh, absolutely. From the very first shot, you can see where I put the temp sensor, it's right on top of the metal box on the wall, to the right of the printer. The metal box is a similar thermal mass to the printer. So that was my way of seeing how the frame would act as a heat sink. In the later tests (once the shop was getting really cold), I would let the machine sit for a bit at 105C and wait for that temp sensor to mostly equalize. Not ideal, but it absolutely took time for all the metal to absorb heat.
I've long forgotten what settings I used. I think I just slowed it down, just try printing with the 'silent' mode and letting it cool slowly afterwards.
That’s criminal, the enclosure should be sent free to you guys for that bloody price. Personally I’m waiting to see if prusa releases the printer they use for the AFS. That’s what I’m interested in
For some reason the ASA parts I print get warped after the print has finished. I am using MK4 With original Prusa enclosure, glue stick on smooth pei sheet. Any idea why this happens?
@@RobertCowanDIY thanks for the helpful tip. I will now keep the enclosure closed and allow the part to cool slowly, maybe use the preheat option to ramp down the temperature slowly
@RobertCowanDIY no problem 😉 but you are absolutely right. They shouldn't treat it like an afterthought, and it should have come with the printer at launch optional or not. It was interesting interviewing them, they are very passionated about there products and just like there other products i have a good feeling every problem on the XL will eventually get fixed. Just to bad the consumer has to be the beta tester. Nothing new but i expected more after those 2 years.
@@NoizieWorks There's a huge push for companies to release new products and 3d printing is moving very fast as an industry right now. Just a couple years ago it was COMPLETELY different. It's not an excuse, but I do feel bad for companies that have pressure to constantly release something newer, faster, bigger, more AI-er, etc, etc.
I really like your way of making videos. Cool, calm and collected. But I have some constructive criticism; When talking about temperatures, please state which unit (Fahrenheit or Celsius) you mean at each given time. It gets confusing for one who can only understand Celsius and then all of a sudden you're (most likely) talking about Fahrenheit. Or even better; Stick to using Celsius only - since the video is about 3D printers, and they all (and we all as users) use Celsius when indicating temperatures, that would be logical. At the point where you showed the temperature gauge inside the makeshift "enclosure", I was thinking "yeah okay I guess it could get up to 93 C, even if that's probably really bad for the printer and a fire risk" but then when you opened the curtain and did not react as if you just entered a sauna I was a bit perplexed at first :D
Fair point. I TEND to stick with the unit the machine uses, and unfortunately I had my temp sensor on F. But I get ya, I'll try to do that more. I tend to stick with measurements in both, but converting C to F and such in your head is trickier!
A tighter enclosure with better insulation will get you hotter chamber temps, which will critically reduce warping and increase layer adhesion. The other major reason for a proper enclosure is the "smell" you mentioned. That's poison, and just because it's less of an effect on your nose for ASA does not mean it is more safe. ASA and ABS should be printed in an enclosure, with a filter, and preferably an exhaust as well. You do not want to be breathing that stuff!
Nice video! If you want, I can share you my Poly ASA settings for the Bambu (X1C) if you want... it's printing good here. Not perfect perfect, but quite good! Good enough for Voron parts. :)
Sure, I'd be curious what you did different. Mine's printing good too, just needed some extra adhesion on the bed. Send them over, you can find my contact info on my channel page.
@@RobertCowanDIY bottomline: took default profile, added more cooling, slower on the 1st layer and outer walls and used the strength profile, as that has already lower speeds. I'll mail them to you :)
@@marcelzuidwijk That's very similar to what I did, I slowed down the outer walls and used the strength profile (but adjusted the number of perimeters) and tweaked bed temp. More cooling is interesting! (I always switched from Bambu ASA to Generic ASA, which slows it down a bit)
@@RobertCowanDIY depending on the part, I agree... if there's any kind of bridge I would not use a weight, but I do a lot of flat plate-type prints, so its helpful. (as long as I'm around when the print ends lol). What adjustments do you make to gcode? slow the cooling down in stages or similar?
I've also tried flash-cooling by weighing parts down in my freezer with the build plate and all.. I did see a difference, and oddly enough, the parts feel a little "harder", though untested.😂
@@ChrisLocke1969 Yep, just some simple gcode to slowly cool down the build plate. It worked perfectly. I was thinking of doing a follow-up video. Once the shop temp got back up to normal levels and I added that code at the end, it's printing ASA just fine.
@@RobertCowanDIY what a fantastic idea... yes, please share this as a How To? Many of us don't know much about gcode, and would be scared to try something like this alone lol. Sounds like a practical feature they should start building into the core OS. Great job, sir!
I printed alot of asa with my ender 3 and resently upgraded my printer to bambu p1s and i have to say even though i was very satisfied with how the prints looked with ender the layer adhesion gets significantly stronger with enclosure which is ofcourse the main reason why i print with asa in the first place so id say no not necessary but then again you waste the potential strength of asa
Oh for sure. BUT, when conditions are more ideal, the ambient temp around the part is still over 100F, which should be a good environment for layer adhesion. In the case of the K1 and X1C, this was roughly the internal enclosure temp when the part was finished, so they have the same ambient temp.
Good question. The big 'frame' part you saw around 1:17, that's too big for the other printers. BUT I didn't do the test with that part since it's far easier to print, uses a larger part of the print bed (so more of the bed is heated, more heat in the enclosure) and it's just not very prone to warping. So I chose the part that's more likely to warp. The part I used to test can be printed inside the larger one, so they would be printed together.
Great idea. One thing I did want to mention is that while the XL (and the MK44) is pretty much auto-magic for the first layer height calibration, you *can* still press and hold the knob during the first layer of the print to manually "Live Adjust Z" if needed for a special case.
Just to be clear, it was 56F in the shop, but the temperature inside the 'enclosure' was at least 80F during printing. Once the first layer started, it got above 90F and nearly hit 100F. That's the air temp OUTSIDE the printer, but inside the shower curtain. I agree, it was too cold outside the curtain, but inside it was roughly the same temp as inside the enclosed printers.
@@bernardtarver Once again, the ambient temperature around the printer was at worst 75F. OUTSIDE that environment, where I was recording, was much cooler. The printer did not see these temps. Outside was -5F, but that's irrelevant because the printer wasn't outside.
Are enclosure necesary? YES if yuo whant to print in all that volume its a Must , even more yuo gone need a heater for all the volumen ,of course if yuo print tinny things could work but if the thing grow in heagh , its super important have all at the same temp, even with an enclusure yuo coukd habe delamination , cracking and warping , soo
It's more about the geometry. As you go higher, you get further from the heated build plate. BUT, if your ambient temperature is adequate, the temperature differential won't be as large and won't cause issues.
I know for a fact that Prusa has been the go to 3D printer from the years 2018-2022, and for good reason. They’ve done loads to further the community with open source and very high quality for the time. In 2023 and 2024 however, buying a Prusa machine as your primary workhouse is just intentionally spending money on an inferior product when compared to the Bambu. There are a whole lot of things that make the Bambu superior, and the XL is a different product all together, but like you said. $5000 for a non enclosed printer with 3D printed parts holding it together? No chance.
Oh, I put in a section JUST FOR YOU. It wasn't $5k, but it should have come with an enclosure option. But instead of rage-baiting people I'm just showing solutions where I can use the printer for my purposes.
In the old days running abs I used to run a heated chamber at 45c or so -113f. I found two things helped. 1 keep the chamber hot for 20min after print is done and that prints done in a heated chamber were both stronger and had virtually no warp. A mixing fan helped keep the chamber gradient proper.
Yep, I think adding gcode at the end of the print to keep the build plate warm would be the way to go.
@@RobertCowanDIY I have an X1C and I slow down to 60mm/s cover the top window and door gaps and will slowly ramp down the heated bed after printing for 30min to 1 hour. Parts are super flat and close to tolerances.
I've got email in december from Prusa to complete my 2T XL purchase, and still haven't completed just because I am waiting for the enclosure release. Very disapointed that they let community finish their product for such price tag, years of development and delays. I think that for the money we pay and for the 360mm3 build volume enclosure is mandatory not optional.
I wouldn't expect Prusa to come out with the enclosure anytime soon. The front and sides are easy to enclose. The top will need some extra parts but it shouldn't keep you from getting the XL if it is something that would work for your needs.
@@hitf5 Its more of a principle. It would cost me approx. 3000$ incl. shipping and import fees for 2T XL kit... and I don't want to use shower curtain or pay for third party enclosures just to be able to print PLA/PETG/ASA without warping in my garage.
@@brezovprut4431 Understood. That would be a problem with any printer that was not enclosed in a garage. You should check out a Voron - they are designed to be enclosed and you can get a similar build volume for half the cost (though you would have to build it yourself.)
@@brezovprut4431 💯
I have a XL. I honestly don’t think it’ll be a great printer for high-temp materials because the bed doesn’t have much thermal mass. My Voron does ASA, ABS, etc wonderfully with its giant heat spreader and AC bed heater. My enclosed Prusa Mk3 can’t get even close to the same quality and I doubt an enclosed XL would, either. The bed is all wrong and the tubes up top prevent enclosing with minimal air volume. It’s wonderful for PLA and PETG but get a different machine for ABS and such.
Great video Robert. I admit I want a Prusa XL desperately, but I still find it insulting that a $2,000-3,500 printer isn't enclosed.
Hey! I agree with you on both counts. It's a really neat printer, but SHOULD be enclosed with that price tag. Having one in person though, you can see how the build quality is a bit different than most consumer-level printers.
Your explanations of the different material properties made so much more sense to me than anything I have read in an article or book before.
Aw, thanks!
I would like to add that ABS and ASA don't only "smell", they actually release styrol fumes which are toxic (and if I am not mistaken can cause cancer) hence the headache. If you print that stuff on a regular basis you need to think about some kind of ventilation. Great video, thanks!
yeah, understood. I only print them when I'm not in the same space.
I like the humidity at 16%. So if it is below zero outside, you can dry your filament by taking it out of the bag. I'm in Florida. The humidity is 60% in the winter. My dry box running non stop can get down to 20%. Right now it is at 38%. The dry box is just a tuperware cereal box with silica, rice, a reptile heater, spool holder, temp/humidity gauge, and filament guide. This way I can dry the filament, and print with it at the same time.
20% is good in Florida.
Yeah, for filament I want it below 20%, ~15% is ideal.
Tent isn't bad, but a dedicated enclosure definitely helps. I used an Ikea Lack enclosure to print all the ABS parts for my Voron V2.4 on a Prusa MK3S, and it's in a room with the vent closed and was done in the summer. I also have an X1C which isn't bad either, but I find it doesn't seal anywhere near as well as the Voron does. My Voron will do massive ABS/ASA prints without a care in the world, but that's what it's designed for. It'll be interesting to see what either Prusa or the community makes for truly enclosing the XL.
That was the exact conclusion. It works in a pinch, but a real enclosure will always be better.
If it wobble due to fast bed cooling, maybe a Gcode in the end could help slowing the process down. Not shure it works:
M140 S80; temp 80c
M04 S30; wait 30 sec
M140 S75; and so on
Or maybe when done, put a mitten over it so the cooling is more regular.
Yeah, someone else mentioned this and that's probably the way to go. OR, I could just wait until this cold snap ends and go back to printing when it's a reasonable temperature out there.
So a nice video. I have one idea to try maybe. You can edit the end-code and leave the bed turned on for some time for example at 80 and slowly bring the temperature down with time. Maybe this can help with your problem with XL.
I absolutely thought of this. A slower cooldown would help tremendously.
This definitely helps, I have logged over 300 hours of ASA printing on my X1C, this one made the most difference by far, I set mine to automatically turn down 10C every 15 minutes.
@@richardguo1892 Good to know! I'll have to do that.
Thank you for a very interesting video, would you be able to share the bambu profile ? :)
Would be interested to see how well this would work on taller parts, usually they are the most troublesome in terms of cracking and warping. Also one tip I have for printing ASA/ABS is leave the print attached to the plate in the enclosure and gradually decrease the bed temperature, you can write some end process g code to automate this, I set mine to drop 10c every 15 minutes. From my experience this is especially true for bigger and taller parts, removing them immediately after print usually will result in cracking.
I suspect I would have had issues considering how cold the rest of the shop was. I think if I could keep it warmer it would be mostly OK. But the parts cooled down too quickly once the heated bed turned off. But as you said, some ending gcode would fix that.
Was interested to see your results. I'm printing the last parts of the SUMO enclosure from 3D SOURCERER for my XL. I tried to print some of the parts in ABS and could not get good results. Ended up printing it all in PLA. I'm hoping I can print more difficult material with it installed
Gotcha. I've looked at that, but got really burned by PrinterBox or whatever I got for my MK3. I'm a little leery of enclosure kits after that. I'd either make my own or wait to see what Prusa comes out with.
@@RobertCowanDIY I just posted a make on Printables, it came out pretty well and I'm printing a large ABS part now
I love Polymaker ASA. Fantastic filament. I use it for all my custom air ducts for my printer cooling. Prints almost as nicely as the PLA Pro.
You definitely need to leave it warm for a while and cool it slowly.
for sure! any part that's removed from such a hot environment is gonna have a bit of thermal shock.
A brim or mouse ears is what I use on the X1C to help if a print is warping, rather than glue. If on a specific print that's not enough, then aquanet hairspray works really well. This is for both ASA and PETG on the engineering plate. Most prints work great on it without a brim, and just using windex on the plate.
Gotcha. I kinda avoid sprays or anything on the build plates because it tends to be messy (for me). I also avoid brims or mouse ears because I usually add a 0.5mm chamfer on the bottom of the parts for aesthetic reasons and that kinda messes it up and I don't like cutting off brims, I think it looks sloppy. But that's my my own personal viewpoint!
Just dump that horrible plate and get the textured plate. Asa and abs is child's play on the x1c print better than pla for me. Drying your filament is overlooked by a lot when it comes to asa and abs.
@@RobertCowanDIY I totally understand, and agree with you, and prefer to do the same chamfer on the bottom like you mentioned, but a lot of the time I just don't because that chamfer is actually a big reason to cause the warping. And I'd rather have a print without the chamfer that doesn't warp and that I don't have to slather the plate with glue for it to stick.
One thing I've come across in my testing of using full enclosures on my printers is that the cold end can no longer keep up and heat creep causes jams. I wonder if that is the main reason why the XL hasn't done an enclosure for it yet. The only counter I can think of is to water cool the cold end, but that has its own risks involved, especially being around electricity and having moving parts. There are quality water cooling kits out there for printers, but does a company like Prusa want to potentially have a liability problem if something goes wrong?
Also I seem to remember something about Prusa having plans to integrate enclosure equipment as an add on in the future since they have many modular attachment points.
This is highly dependent on the material. Heat creep is usually more a function of the material. PLA is VERY susceptible to this. Materials with a very low glass transition temperature will prematurely deform when the ambient temperature is too high, causing them to jam the extruder. ASA and ABS have a very high glass transition temperature and don't deform under normal printing conditions (even with a very hot enclosure). Since most people print with PLA or PETG, this is more of a concern.
I constructed a couple enclosures for my MK3. This first was a carboard box with a 100W incandescent light in it. That helped the bed quite a lot with heating the chamber, but it wasn't quite enough to get the reliably straight ABS prints I was after. ABS wants around 50C ambient, so stepped up to a a couple small 120V heaters controlled by a cheap temperature controller. I can get dead straight ABS prints anytime I want now, but now I want to do it with PC. That needs a high enough temperature that my MK3 controller shut down. (Apparently, there's a sensor onboard somewhere). Next up is CF-PC with the heated chamber to minimize residual stress, but I haven't run that experiment yet. I moved on to other things while waiting for an Obxidian nozzle.
This is a true maker. Cardboard and a light. Awesome.
Yeah, if it works, it works! Nice job.
Just be sure to cool the extruder motor, and print the idler door from ASA, because petg one will warp at around 45-50c under stress of the spring. Otherwise, mk3 is very capable of printing ABS, and even better at printing ASA.
I also had issues with the default Bambu ASA profile. I think the bed temperature is far too low. I set my bed temp to 120 and nozzle to 265 and have been printing without any adhesive with no issues since, at least with Polymaker ASA.
Good to know. Yeah, the bed temp was 90C and the extruder was 270, it SHOULD be around 260/105+. With some small adjustments it printed well though.
PolyLite ASA spec sheet calls for 75 to 95C for the bed, so it's not Bambu, since the manufacturer themselves recommend these values. Controlling ambient temp is more important, as well as annealing the part after it's done.
Just my experience here. I almost always print with PETG. I started using an enclosure and noticed the quality is much better. As far as having an affect on strength, I've not done that kind of testing. My prints are much smoother and I rarely have issues after adding the enclosure.
Nice, something to consider. I don't use PETG a lot because it isn't very rigid which is what I'm usually after. But I'll keep that in mind.
Nice, thanks for posting the video. I’m about to try printing ASA for the first time on my MK4, and I’m not quite finished building my enclosure. Seems like the best thing would be to finish the enclosure, throw on a satin print bed and let er rip.
The curtain should be adequate for low (sub 1") tall priints, but any taller prints that don't get primarily heated from the bed will end up cracking in the later layers. Try printing a tall print in ASA or ABS, on an un-enclosed printer this won't go well. Plus, even if you do get a part that is acceptable I can assure you the layer welding will be considerably weaker without a chamber temp in the 60-80 C range.
Yep, that's what I was figuring. Thankfully the parts I need to make are all relatively low profile.
I've notice that by clamping the parts to a flat surface as soon as I take it off the build plate, until the part finish cooling down. It seems to help keep the part from warping as much. 👍
Yeah, that helps for sure. I'm just letting everything cool down slowly, which does the trick.
I'm a newbee to 3D printing and I appreciate your honest reviews and love the fact that you show the positives and the negatives. I'm trying to decide between the Bambu Lab X1 Carbon and the Prusa XL. I love what Bambu Lab offers for a user that just wants to print, not tinker and its enclosure. However, I find that Bambu Labs' X1C's build volume is so darn small. I love the bigger build volume of the Prusa XL and its 5 extruder heads which renders way less waste but would have preferred the Prusa XL in an enclosure. That being said, I love your "home made enclosure solution" for the Prusa XL to make a difference in the quality prints that require "sensitive" material. In your opinion, is the Prusa XL to much to handle for a first 3D printer purchase. Its price tag is hefty for a first purchase. Is there a chance that Bambu Lab would release an X1C with a bigger build volume? You feedback would be greatly appreciated. And yes, I did Like and Subscribe!
Another great video thanks. At those temps I suspect you may not be getting anywhere near full strength ASA parts, but of course that may not matter for your project.
The real magic starts to happen for ABS at over 80C. Enclosure temps for professional printers printing ABS are normally set at 80C and I suspect similar for ASA.
You may also find different glue sticks work better with different filaments. I use Magigoo PC both as a bed separation agent (to stop some of the stickier filaments like TPU sticking too much) and also as a maximum strength glue stick for nylons, ABS and ASA . I also use an FR2 (bakelite) surfaced flex sheet from Mueller, which is cheating a bit.
Another way to build a cheap ghetto enclosure is to glue 30mm sheets of polystyrene together to form a box that you can place over the printer. I cut an opening and pressed a small sheet of lear acrylic into it as a viewing window for my Prusa. I could get temps up to 50C this way on my Prusa bed slinger.
You might be right. I wonder what the ambient temp is right near the print though. It was 100F (in the earlier tests) about a foot away, near the wall). I would suspect right near the print bed it was quite a bit hotter.
@@RobertCowanDIY good point. That heat might be too localized close to the bed for a taller print (although heat does rise of course) to keep the whole print hot to also prevent warping on taller prints....but it might be enough to achieve good strength. I need to do some testing, I think.
yeah theres a reason i print abs and Asa at 85-90 chamber
I haven't watched the video, but I bought the Sumo Enclosure. I've found that printing in an enclosure provides better results even when printing PETG vs. no enclosure.
In addition I want to contain as much VOCs to the enclosure as possible. I run a Hepa filter with carbon on all my printers that circulates the air in the enclosure. I don't want to vent the enclosure because I'm trying to maintain temperature inside the enclosure.
I print ASA just fine with my mk4 in the Prusa Enclosure. I preheat everything for about 45 minutes before starting the print.
Looking forward to watching tonight when i get some time. I'm sure it's good content.
I might have to check that out, but for $300 and I still need to print all those bulky parts? I dunno... I can easily cut acrylic on my router, I would probably just design my own.
@@RobertCowanDIY Believe it or not I thought it was actually fairly priced compared to what else is out there for the XL and less expensive than the current MK3/4 enclosure that Prusa makes at $349.
I agree that making your own is probably the cheapest route of you've got the time.
@@bluerider0988 For me it's less about time or money, I'm just really picky and wasn't happy with previous enclosure kits I've bought.
i print ASA all day, every day on a bambu x1c ... in case this helps someone ... with no warping -- i use the engineering plate with purple aqua net, 100° build plate
I used to put a small desk heater in my encloser with a plant heater heat controller to control enclosure temps. It was great for ASA. Might work for you. You could hold it at 50C after its done printing and drop it down after its uniform.
On the wet filament thing - some manufacturers run the filament through a water bath in the extrusion process so it will be wet until its dried. I don't know what they use to dry their spools or if theyre just blown off. So most new filaments will contain some moisture.
Yeah, I am usually a BIG fan of drying out new filament for that very reason. It only takes a little bit of moisture to create an issue.
About to have a go at ASA on my entry level Creality v3 ke - have built a plexiglass enclosure for it. Good times.- Styrene (not styrol as another commenter put it) fumes are a suspected carcinogen, and neurotoxic. So I’ll be using a small PC fan at very low rpm to vent fumes outside. One other thought is that warm air holds more moisture - so maybe a bowl of silica beads might help too.
Best of luck!
Glad someone brought up creep and PLA. I have had to re-print parts in ABS to replace PLA parts that permanently deformed. ASA is lower density than PLA so you get more length per 1KG spool.
Oh, huh, I didn't realize it was lower density, that's good to know.
Thanks for explaining the details about ASA adhesion to build plates in bambu and prusa and the bed surface treatment.
Nice idea. Well, I am still looking for a printer. I am new to this stuff and still gather info. It looks like my dream printer would be an XL with 5 heads, enclosure, with heating but 1k cheaper. Guess I still have to wait some years. Nevertheless it's very interesting to see the evolution. 👍
That's a really nice cheap and easy first thing to try. My first attempt a decade ago was a huge cardboard box. I like 60C enclosure temps for styrenes (ABS, ASA & HIPS). I don't have any Prusa machines though.
Yeah, if it works, it works.
I'm printing on the MK4 Enclosed with ASA right now and I got some lifting off the bed. I had to restart and use some glue stick. I think it depends on the structure. My print was long with relatively thin walls so I think the constant throwing of the bed loosened up the print. Nice idea with the shower curtain.
Be careful, parts of the mk4 are in PETG and might not be suitable for higher temps enclosure settings. Make sure to print spares at least just in case
When I received my 5-head Prusa XL, I mostly had stinky ABS to work with (it was the only material my previous printer could reliably print). Needing an enclosure for drafts, I simply cut the packaging it came with in the shape I needed. The box is bigger than the printer, and I could surround it pretty reliably.
Still waiting on the official enclosure, though. Even the accordion-like draft shield presented way back when would be good.
Yeah, I'm going to move the XL over to my new printer station and it will most likely be a better environment for it. But a real enclosure would be nice.
We’ve done a project similar to yours and the right material for your project is Polymide CoPa. Unless very high wear requirements or self lubrication properties are needed we find that it’s a good material. We pretty much print 90% of our parts in CoPa and the rest with more expensive nylon blends but they need 75-90deg chamber temp which is impossible on the Prusa.
75-90 C or F?
@@RobertCowanDIY Celsius. Some PA6 nylons we print for our customers are strong as f*** but require chamber temp over 75 otherwise any parts over 100mm long warp and loose dimensional accuracy with unpredictable shrinkage while printing.
@@Theprofessor1212Gotcha. Yeah, nylons can be tricky! Thanks for the info.
can you tell me which profile you using for bambu? i have wraping and dont know what to do
Printing a ton of ASA on an x1c, I can say that by lowering the nozzle temp to about 260c, increasing the bed to 110c, and slowing the print speeds to 50%, and running silent mode, using the engineering plate, It works best with zero glue stick. All prints pop off extremely easy after cooling and are absolutely glued to the bed while hot. I actually have cupping on some parts instead of peeling up, so my bed temp may even be too high. 😂
Haven't had any issues with ABS on my X1C using the stock profile. I've also had very little problems getting my MK3S to print ABS. Never use glue stick on either printer with anything other than PETG to keep it from sticking too much.
Nice! I've been lucky with most filaments, but the XL is much larger so there's more volume to contend with.
@8:55 you say that there is no way to adjust the "squish" you had ample amounts of?
There is still a live z adjust, just like their other printers.
You can adjust the z while printing. Slow the print down if you need to.
My understanding is that glue stick acts as an adhesion barrier, keeping it from sticking too much. I've never heard that it would actually improve sticking like you're saying on the bambu.
Really? It absolutely helps it stick. In the early days of hobby 3d printing, before fancy build plates, it was used with glass sheets because glass didn't inherently stick to plastic well.
Please use one type of temperature readings not 260°C for 3D printers while showing us 56°F your room temperature. It is pretty confusing sometimes, specially when showing your "chamber" heat 96°F. Thank you mister, great info overall.
Fair point.
I want and need the enclosure with an included advanced air filtration to protect from VOC and such, ASA is nasty, and it will sips through your doors into your living space, not that good
Furthermore, the ambient temperature will directly impact the strength of the printer with ABS / ASA, so you want it at 60C at least....
You will notice it more when the prints are taller...they will wrap as well, even without any draft ,they just shrink too fast because of low ambient temps
That's why we need an enclosure, drafts are easy to solve anyhow
Thankfully there's a mudroom connected to the door going into the house, which travels through a laundry room and then through a hallway. There are 3 doors between the shop and my actual living space.
I have printed in both ABS and ASA on the satin bed without a enclousure but in my small office without much of any issue. The key for me was a high temp bed adhesive (the Nano polymer stuff because i hate glue sticks) , normally I would use my voron but I am printing parts for it so it is currently offline. I find ABS to be a more reliable bonder to the bed ASA is nice though and is far easier to remove… that said I feel like ASA looks more matte than ABS but yes do i hate the ABS smell… I miss my voron’s enclosure and the nevermore carbon filter.
Yeah, good to know. I was playing on hard mode, trying to print with a cold shop while the temp kept dropping.
It’s interesting that you mention the too much squish on your XL. I’m suffering from elephant foot on mine and I can’t find a good solution for it. I keep wondering if it’s my fault that my printer is getting the first layer too low or not.
Interesting. For most stuff, the first layer has been flawless.
They did have that bellows shroud in one of the expositions they went to and they Possibly had it in the announcement vid too. The lack of top hat is probably more of an issue For large helmet sized abs prints. As all vorons are near fully enclosed.
Yeah, the sides and front are EASY, but a top-hat is the tricky part.
Did you go ahead and get the official enclosure now?
The XL is a good machine, but for ASA or ABS in a cold environment you need an enclosure. If there is no draft and the room is at room temperature a top cover is not needed. The firmware however is not finished yet
I'd agree with this. It was a less-than-ideal test, but I think that's better than showing it in perfect conditions. BUT, I've been printing for several days since making that video and it's been fine with only minor cosmetic issues (parts are functionally fine otherwise). It does work, just not ideal.
Drink when he says ‘drafts’ 😂.
Great video as always mate 👍🇦🇺😊
HA. If you really want to get drunk, "relatively".
Yes, they are necessary. On a budget machine, sure, its not going to be a priority. On an expensive machine its just needlessly limiting what you can do with it. I have done the temporary enclosures and draft blockers and its always just an exercise in frustration with occasional victories but still less than ideal results and lots of waste. Once I got my first fully enclosed machine I never ever considered anything else.
Thin or small parts can be OK, but the thicker the print the more warping and cracking you will get without proper temp control. For truly worry free ASA and ABS where I can just not worry about the part I keep the chamber over 55C and just print on bare PEI. I haven't had a failed or not great print for months. Even very large and thick parts, zero warp. It really does become just as easy as printing PLA once you can keep the temperature high and stable. As soon as the machine stops I can swap the plate and start the next plate while the first cools down and the parts release themselves as they cool. I sometimes put the just printed plate on top of the machine so it cools more slowly but that's usually only in winter.
I use active heating for the chamber and I really believe they will become more common in off the shelf machines.
Good to know. I printed a lot of nylon in the past and with the printer inside a fairly small closet, it worked pretty good. I never had a failed print due to warping, etc. BUT, that was inside a temperature controlled environment, dumping heat inside a small chamber. I look forward to a 'real' enclosure for the XL.
Like always Great video. I'm a former tool maker of 50 years, I have worked on a maultatud of prototypes with pretty much every machine known to man. Convention lathes, milling machines N.C., CNC's and the list goes on. Excellent job on your video. I got in to 3D printing about 5years ago and I have a prusa MK 3s , making parts for inventions, looking into this new XL machine. What do you think over all , I need a bigger surface area to further with my prototypes. And if you could maybe help me with adjustments to making better prints. Thanks Mike W.
If the middle lift ups reduce the build plate temperature after first layer.
I had this problem with an enclosed and chamber heated to 50c (Celsius 😅) Voron 2.4 R2 too.
Huh, interesting. I might try that.
Maybe chuck a small space heater into the corner with your printer. That should give things a nice little boost.
Possibly, or wait until it's not sub 60F in the shop! It's usually around 70-75, and that would help a LOT.
Cool trick with the heat gun.
I found ASA very finicky with temperatures of the air around, and had to use a heated enclosure and have the air temperature at 35C to get good prints. Any cooler and ran into issues.
Yeah, the cosmetic quality wasn't great, but the parts were functionally just fine.
@@RobertCowanDIY In cleaning, I found sample flat prints I did with ASA trying get a better finish on the top side. Don't remember all the markings on the back side, but apparently 95 and 260 gave the best result. :) This is why we have computers to remember things for us.
By any chance, could we get the parameters you had for the bambu X1C that has the best resut? I tried ASA with this printer and i have hard time getting good results like your part.
Curious if you picked up the enclosure now that its announced.
Do you happen to know what temperature your heat gun was putting out for the smoothing?
This makes me wonder why the XL wasn't released with an enclosure always built-in.
They got bogged down with other projects and made the decision to release it without an enclosure. They screwed up IMO. I suspect we'll soon see an enclosure option.
Hi Robert, great video. Would you mind sharing with us the profile you used for the print on Bambu Labs?
All I did was change the speed on the perimeters. I think it was 75 for the outer wall and 150 for other perimeters and adjusted the number of top and bottom layers.
you should try some o that HTN-CF stuff, I print it at work all the time and it makes every single other filament like a toy to me :D
And how much do you pay per kilogram? I haven't seen any affordable ones yet... It might be worth for professional purposes, but for hobbyists...?
@@tr1pp4 yeah sadly they’re very expensive :/
Another great video! Thank you for making it.
Glad you enjoyed it!
You can adjust the squish buddy, you can also adjust it on the MK4
I'll have to play with that, I haven't had to adjust it just yet.
What do you mean when you say @13:48 “you use this one (Bambu) to tweak and tune the other ones” you started all this ASA experiment with bambu and that help you fine tune the other printers?
Kinda? I was using 3 different slicers (Prusaslicer for the XL, Bambu Studio for the X1C and Orca for the K1), and they all had different settings for the stock ASA profiles. Since the X1C had the best print overall (except for that first test), I looked to see what was different with it's profile and tweaked the others based on that. Does that make sense?
@@RobertCowanDIY yes thank you. Very clear. Is that for your brick combat robot. 2 sliding rod to take it appart?
@@JeromeDemersNope, not combat robot related. Stay tuned!
I dexterized one of my cr10s pros as well for ABS. 😁
HA, nice.
My favourite related material is HIPS
Very cheap.
Matte and pretty.
Not actively hygroscopic.
Not all that floppy, it's not PETG.
Better UV resistance than ABS.
Does not degrade in the hot-end as quickly as ABS.
Little die swell.
Good pressure control, does not ooze.
It has that volatile poison but not too much of it, an order of magnitude less than ABS.
Dimensionally very good, little shrinkage.
Accepts sanding, painting and glue.
Does not dissolve in acetone but can be welded with acetone.
I can usually just print it open frame and instead of draft shielding i do the opposite, i just blast a little constant air on it, like 5-10% fan speed. Yes i'm sure i'm locking more tension in there than necessary but it works. You try that with ABS and it's a catastrophe.
I don't know why HIPS gets treated as a joke, i think it's one of the best most versatile 3D printing materials.
Bed adhesion is a little difficult. 100°C-ish and PVP coating helps.
Huh, I thought HIPS had poor UV resistance? It's also not great a exposure to heat, which would make it problematic in the sun.
@@RobertCowanDIY Compared to ASA, it is poor in these regards; but even when degradation by all reason should set in, it suffers less than ABS.
ABS i could preheat the nozzle and then just crumbly shit would come out a mere 20 minutes later, because the material has thermally degraded in the meltzone. With HIPS, i have not been able to accomplish that in any humanly timeframe.
Awesome video Robert!
Thanks!
Gonna buy the enclosure?
HA! Been using the plastic bag trick on my printer for years - it works!
Nice!
ASA has long been my favorite material, and HIPS works great as a support for it.
Nice, good to know.
@@RobertCowanDIYHIPS with limonene is actually the only dissolvable filament I’ve found that really works like it’s supposed to. I’ve had mediocre and frustrating experiences with Ionic, PVA, PVA+ - even paired with their “intended” filaments (NylonX, PLA, etc.) So much so that other than ASA+HIPS, I usually just use the primary filament as a breakaway support and deal with the slightly ugly undersides.
@@automaticprojects I'll have to keep that in mind the next time I need to rely on support, thanks!
I'm pretty sure that you've made a wrong question: does prusa xl actually worth it's price if you have to wrap it in cellophane to print "advanced" filaments
Price is relative. If you have no food and clothes, even if it printed metal and ultem it's not worth the money. If you have a billion dollars and NEED to print large format dissimilar materials, it's worth every penny. You either need the abiities it has or you don't. If you don't need what the XL does differently than other printers, it's a waste of money. But it does some things that no other printer can do. It sounds like you just want people to say the XL is overpriced garbage so you can feel superior.
I need to try some other filaments besides PLA & PETG...
They're a bit more of a pain, but it opens up new design options for sure.
Thanks! great vid. Which of these UV resistant filaments > ASA, PCTG & PETG are 'strongest'? Speaking of those which UV resistant filament would you recommend for functional parts... eg a shed door handle?
If you're referring to strength as rigidity, ASA would probably be best. But I don't have any experience with PCTG. But it doesn't sound as rigid as ASA/ABS. Other than the fumes, ASA really is pretty neat for functional parts. It checks a lot of the boxes!
@@RobertCowanDIY thanks! i'll buy some an give it a go
@@RobertCowanDIY thanks i've ordered some, lets see how many birds nests i can make hehe!
Is there a way to get hold of your Bambu ASA profile?
i have been trying to get it right, but do not know where exactly to start...
Thanks :)
All I did was slow down the perimeters.
I'll also note something else I've discovered when printing higher temp materials in an enclosure. You need to let the whole machine sit at the elevated temperature for awhile before starting the print.
Here's why. As you print in the enclosure the machine slowly heats up to that elevated temperature in the enclosure and starts to grow because of the elevated temperature. This expansion causes the relationship between the print surface and the print head to change throughout the print. This can be minimized by letting the entire printer heat up and do it's expanding before you start the print. This allows the printer to pick up the bed at the expanded size.
Part of the reason that it warps when heating up is that the printer is made of multiple different materials, primarily steel and aluminum, which don't expand the same rate as they heat up.
Hope that makes sense.
Anyways I've had much better luck allowing the printer to heat soak before starting so that things stay consistent during the print.
The XL actually does exactly this. It has a 'heat soak' that it does before printing. It sits at temp for 10+ minutes to let it equalize.
@@RobertCowanDIY That's interesting, but I mean the entire machine needs to heat soak, aka the frame. This takes longer than 10 minutes. You could test this by taking a temp reading on the frame before and after the print. My suspect is after a multiple hour print you'll see that the frame is much warmer at the end than at the beginning.
I definitely do with my MK's in an enclosure.
@@bluerider0988 Oh, absolutely. From the very first shot, you can see where I put the temp sensor, it's right on top of the metal box on the wall, to the right of the printer. The metal box is a similar thermal mass to the printer. So that was my way of seeing how the frame would act as a heat sink. In the later tests (once the shop was getting really cold), I would let the machine sit for a bit at 105C and wait for that temp sensor to mostly equalize. Not ideal, but it absolutely took time for all the metal to absorb heat.
Can you share your tuned ASA setting for Bambo X1? Mine come out like taco even with glue stick.
I've long forgotten what settings I used. I think I just slowed it down, just try printing with the 'silent' mode and letting it cool slowly afterwards.
That’s criminal, the enclosure should be sent free to you guys for that bloody price. Personally I’m waiting to see if prusa releases the printer they use for the AFS. That’s what I’m interested in
Well, $4 was pretty close to free. But I agree, it should have at least been released with an option.
For some reason the ASA parts I print get warped after the print has finished. I am using MK4 With original Prusa enclosure, glue stick on smooth pei sheet. Any idea why this happens?
Yep, as it cools the internal stresses contract the material unevenly. You need to allow it to cool (or come to room temp) more slowly.
@@RobertCowanDIY thanks for the helpful tip. I will now keep the enclosure closed and allow the part to cool slowly, maybe use the preheat option to ramp down the temperature slowly
Can get ASA in Australia now for $24 a roll AUD
They showed off a magnetic draft shield in formnext that is going to be optional. it looked simple and would fix your problem 100%
here is the part where they talk about the enclosure and draftshied ua-cam.com/video/FxdpNxkG39k/v-deo.htmlsi=uoVj7EqoHE8sT0mr&t=329
Oh nice! Yeah, this will be a workable solution until something better comes along. Thanks for the link.
@RobertCowanDIY no problem 😉 but you are absolutely right. They shouldn't treat it like an afterthought, and it should have come with the printer at launch optional or not. It was interesting interviewing them, they are very passionated about there products and just like there other products i have a good feeling every problem on the XL will eventually get fixed. Just to bad the consumer has to be the beta tester. Nothing new but i expected more after those 2 years.
@@NoizieWorks There's a huge push for companies to release new products and 3d printing is moving very fast as an industry right now. Just a couple years ago it was COMPLETELY different. It's not an excuse, but I do feel bad for companies that have pressure to constantly release something newer, faster, bigger, more AI-er, etc, etc.
@@RobertCowanDIY Absolutely right!
Thank you for the "eraser" tip. Satin sheet is the best!!!!
You're welcome!
This reminded me of Nero3Ds cardboard box enclosure.
Its not pretty but it works.
OH yeah, when I had a formbot printer, I had a very nice cardboard box for it when printing nylon. I mean, it works.
Bambu preset is too fast for ASA, I need to turn down Speed and Acc to 40%
I really like your way of making videos. Cool, calm and collected. But I have some constructive criticism;
When talking about temperatures, please state which unit (Fahrenheit or Celsius) you mean at each given time. It gets confusing for one who can only understand Celsius and then all of a sudden you're (most likely) talking about Fahrenheit.
Or even better; Stick to using Celsius only - since the video is about 3D printers, and they all (and we all as users) use Celsius when indicating temperatures, that would be logical.
At the point where you showed the temperature gauge inside the makeshift "enclosure", I was thinking "yeah okay I guess it could get up to 93 C, even if that's probably really bad for the printer and a fire risk" but then when you opened the curtain and did not react as if you just entered a sauna I was a bit perplexed at first :D
Fair point. I TEND to stick with the unit the machine uses, and unfortunately I had my temp sensor on F. But I get ya, I'll try to do that more. I tend to stick with measurements in both, but converting C to F and such in your head is trickier!
A tighter enclosure with better insulation will get you hotter chamber temps, which will critically reduce warping and increase layer adhesion.
The other major reason for a proper enclosure is the "smell" you mentioned. That's poison, and just because it's less of an effect on your nose for ASA does not mean it is more safe.
ASA and ABS should be printed in an enclosure, with a filter, and preferably an exhaust as well. You do not want to be breathing that stuff!
Oh, of course. A 'real' enclosure will always be better, but this is a quick solution for the occasional ASA print.
Why not build your own enclosure? Could that be next?
I'm going to give Prusa ~6 more months and see if they have a solution. I'd almost always rather buy something that make my own, time is precious.
Nice video! If you want, I can share you my Poly ASA settings for the Bambu (X1C) if you want... it's printing good here. Not perfect perfect, but quite good! Good enough for Voron parts. :)
Sure, I'd be curious what you did different. Mine's printing good too, just needed some extra adhesion on the bed. Send them over, you can find my contact info on my channel page.
@@RobertCowanDIY bottomline: took default profile, added more cooling, slower on the 1st layer and outer walls and used the strength profile, as that has already lower speeds. I'll mail them to you :)
@@marcelzuidwijk That's very similar to what I did, I slowed down the outer walls and used the strength profile (but adjusted the number of perimeters) and tweaked bed temp. More cooling is interesting! (I always switched from Bambu ASA to Generic ASA, which slows it down a bit)
weight your parts for 15m before removing from build plate, helps me a lot, especially with flat panel parts
Not a bad idea. I worry that it would deform in some rare cases? I adjusted the ending gcode and that works great.
@@RobertCowanDIY depending on the part, I agree... if there's any kind of bridge I would not use a weight, but I do a lot of flat plate-type prints, so its helpful. (as long as I'm around when the print ends lol). What adjustments do you make to gcode? slow the cooling down in stages or similar?
I've also tried flash-cooling by weighing parts down in my freezer with the build plate and all.. I did see a difference, and oddly enough, the parts feel a little "harder", though untested.😂
@@ChrisLocke1969 Yep, just some simple gcode to slowly cool down the build plate. It worked perfectly. I was thinking of doing a follow-up video. Once the shop temp got back up to normal levels and I added that code at the end, it's printing ASA just fine.
@@RobertCowanDIY what a fantastic idea... yes, please share this as a How To? Many of us don't know much about gcode, and would be scared to try something like this alone lol. Sounds like a practical feature they should start building into the core OS. Great job, sir!
ELEGOO ASA $36.00 for 2x 1 kilo spools. and go with 90 for the bed and 250 printing, machine will keep up much easier
AH nice, that's a good deal.
I printed alot of asa with my ender 3 and resently upgraded my printer to bambu p1s and i have to say even though i was very satisfied with how the prints looked with ender the layer adhesion gets significantly stronger with enclosure which is ofcourse the main reason why i print with asa in the first place so id say no not necessary but then again you waste the potential strength of asa
Oh for sure. BUT, when conditions are more ideal, the ambient temp around the part is still over 100F, which should be a good environment for layer adhesion. In the case of the K1 and X1C, this was roughly the internal enclosure temp when the part was finished, so they have the same ambient temp.
This is much smaller than the XL volume, why even try with it instead of an enclosed printer?
Good question. The big 'frame' part you saw around 1:17, that's too big for the other printers. BUT I didn't do the test with that part since it's far easier to print, uses a larger part of the print bed (so more of the bed is heated, more heat in the enclosure) and it's just not very prone to warping. So I chose the part that's more likely to warp. The part I used to test can be printed inside the larger one, so they would be printed together.
Great idea. One thing I did want to mention is that while the XL (and the MK44) is pretty much auto-magic for the first layer height calibration, you *can* still press and hold the knob during the first layer of the print to manually "Live Adjust Z" if needed for a special case.
Ah good to know. I haven't had to do this yet, but I'm sure I'll need to some day.
you are cheating , printer stands in a corner and corners have always 90 degree :P
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. HOWEVER, both of those are exterior walls which face north... Does that undo some of the cheating?
@@RobertCowanDIY i'm from the 80's when cheating in games was encouridged by gaming magazines so don't see it as a bad thing
@@kokodin5895fellow 80's bro ;-)
Less than 65 F is too cold for any 3d printer printing any filament.
Just to be clear, it was 56F in the shop, but the temperature inside the 'enclosure' was at least 80F during printing. Once the first layer started, it got above 90F and nearly hit 100F. That's the air temp OUTSIDE the printer, but inside the shower curtain. I agree, it was too cold outside the curtain, but inside it was roughly the same temp as inside the enclosed printers.
@@RobertCowanDIY According the user's guides for the your three printers, the avg min ambient temp is 55 F.
@@bernardtarver Once again, the ambient temperature around the printer was at worst 75F. OUTSIDE that environment, where I was recording, was much cooler. The printer did not see these temps. Outside was -5F, but that's irrelevant because the printer wasn't outside.
I just use large clear trash liners over my printers. Cheap and easy.
Yep, that totally works and is essentially what I'm doing here!
Are enclosure necesary? YES if yuo whant to print in all that volume its a Must , even more yuo gone need a heater for all the volumen ,of course if yuo print tinny things could work but if the thing grow in heagh , its super important have all at the same temp, even with an enclusure yuo coukd habe delamination , cracking and warping , soo
It's more about the geometry. As you go higher, you get further from the heated build plate. BUT, if your ambient temperature is adequate, the temperature differential won't be as large and won't cause issues.
This machine costs 4000€ full specs, to be honest it should print nearly all materials. For 3600€ you can get an raise 3d 3pro
That's why God made plexiglass!
Glad to know im the 1000th like
oh, wow!
So the answer is, Yes, you do need an enclosure. You created an improvised enclosure. Far from ideal but you enclosed the printer.
Well, yeah, you're not wrong. There are some semantics about 'what is an enclosure', but you're not wrong. I created a 'semi-contained chamber'.
👍👍😎👍👍
5K for a printer that needs to be enclosed with a shower curtain . This Prusa guy is a genius . His buyers also
I know for a fact that Prusa has been the go to 3D printer from the years 2018-2022, and for good reason. They’ve done loads to further the community with open source and very high quality for the time. In 2023 and 2024 however, buying a Prusa machine as your primary workhouse is just intentionally spending money on an inferior product when compared to the Bambu. There are a whole lot of things that make the Bambu superior, and the XL is a different product all together, but like you said. $5000 for a non enclosed printer with 3D printed parts holding it together? No chance.
@@alexanderpierzchala1615 $5k gets you the 5 tool machine, which brings capabilities the Bambu can't match.
@@alexanderpierzchala1615 Why do you even come to these videos if all you're going to do is piss and moan?
Oh, I put in a section JUST FOR YOU. It wasn't $5k, but it should have come with an enclosure option. But instead of rage-baiting people I'm just showing solutions where I can use the printer for my purposes.
Saying the XL is too expensive is SO hot right now.
I was happy when he said 100 degree enclosure, until I've realized that's in freedom units XD
LAME.
haha, SORRY! 100C enclosure is pretty high.