Frankel, best miler there has ever been. and now that he's stepping up in distance to 1m 2f next season he could well prove himself to be the horse in the history of racing!!!
I don't profess to know a whole hell of a lot. But this much I do know. Sir Henry Cecil has trained some incredible horses in his 40+ years as a trainer, and Prince Khalid Abdullah has owned some incredible horses in his 40+ years as an owner. When both say publicly, for the record, that Frankel's the best horse they've ever trained, owned, or seen. You can't just summarily dismiss that as hype.
Other horses had unbelievable performances in two or three races. Frankel had Jaw dropping performances in eleven of his fourteen races. Thats what made him great.
I think you're exactly right about the fact that Frankel and BC will never race other. I just don't think both camps would ever agree on all the terms that both would to try set down for a race between them. If BC does race in the Golden Jubilee? IMO, win, lose, or draw, she'll be loaded up and taken back to Australia, and there she'll stay until she's eventually retired to being a broodmare. And Peter Moody will be able to say he pleased the masses by bringing her to Ascot one time.
I've been caught up watching replays of the less than stellar BC Classic, but I do need to revisit the BC Mile. The focus was on Goldikova, she ran decent, but clearly she's not what she once was. That said, if Frankel had made the trip here to the U.S., we may have had the first 1-5 shot in BC history. The result of that race only solidifies the fact that this is truly a once in a lifetime animal. IMO he would have embarrassed the field by at least 4, if not more. Hopefully Santa Anita in 2012.
you watch the video of arazi and secretariat best wins, belmont and bc juvenile and mute them without hearing the commentator, while doing the same for frankel guineas, frankel queen anne and frankel juddmonte, you'll be astonished from what you'll feel without the commentary.
Looking at comments on here is so funny especially from aussies and yanks they are so deluded in there comments.Frankel is the top rated horse in the world when he was racing.British racing is the best in the world FACT
Imagine the babies if they got together. They would be doubly unstoppable. I love Tom Queally's tactics in this race. Bullet Train is a pacemaker and nothing else though he does look very impressive when he storms off into that lead.
yep same pat that won on golden fleece and quest for fame and irish derby on el gran senor a few weeks later i think pat thought he would find more than he did
Imagine having an unbeaten Black Caviar and unbeaten Frankel meet next year at Ascot. The way they are both going she would be 19-20 and Frankel 12-13? You couldn't write a better script. Although it's very unlikely to ever happen, the thought of it is still completely alluring.
@bazbizzler download the sectionals from the britishchampionseries website under race results and you will see that Frankel ran 10.99 - fact! Come back to me when BC runs the last 3f at Ascot in under 33 seconds. It depends on the track and track conditions. If you get good/firm going then those kind of sectionals are only just about in reach
Recently moved here to australia and i cant get over this black caviar hype, the last race i saw her win was like a class 6 at kempton in november...do people seriously reckon she can stick with the likes of a frankel???i doubt it very much guys lol
Let him repeat what moody says mate, I will, here is something Moody said this week and you can find it on theblack caviar facebook page in audio ''you know, frankel is the best horse in the world and he's the best horse I've ever seen'' he said it so matter of factly. So let him :D
@flickyflicky007 Again Aussie horse don't run that fast in the UK, its almost impossible and i can guarantee that BC won't be running those kind of sectionals over here. Don't forget 1f is longer than 200m anyway. I would also say that Peter Moody is the one who is scared (a realist i would think) as he has said they won't be aiming here at the Queen Anne at Ascot.
Frankel is just incredible. The time of the race is really immaterial. The faster they had travelled the further he would have won. Bring on Black Caviar. Frankel will devour her!
Shows how amazing this horse is that some people were slightly disappointed with this performance. Only the admirable Excelebration got within 8 lengths of him! I have to say as well that I honestly believe that with a better jockey these margins of victory would be even wider. I get the impression Frankel is controlling Queally rather than the other way round. Oh for a young Pat Eddery to smoothly deliver this beast at the right time. The master would get it right a la Pebbles in 1985.
no, the pace-maker at the front ran a 10.99. but regardless, black caviar never runs a sectional over 11 unless its the sectional out of the gate at a standing start, or when she's already 5 lengths clear and is easing up on the line, even then she runs about a 11.2 while the jockey takes a nap. and Australian horses have run slower, the same, and quicker over there. generally with races up to a mile its pretty much the same (slower times if theyre an average horse)
With all due respect to Goldikova, and what she's accomplished over the course of her career at a mile. I don't think I can ever recall a horse more explosive or dominant over a mile as Frankel has proven to be. I think Freddie Head is lucky that Khalid Abdullah and Henry Cecil aren't sending this brute to the BC Mile, or her 4th win in the race would be very unlikely, IMO. Can't wait to see him next season at middle distances. Even if he doesn't ever run 12f? I think he'll dominate at 10f. JMO.
@tivashley Mate you need to learn a bit about the effects of track conditions on times. Do you know why there is 5 seconds difference in the Flemington and Ascot 6f track records? It's not because the UK horses are 5 seconds worse, it's because the track over there is so much stiffer and slower. Look at Goldikova running 132 or 133 in the US and look how much slower she was in the UK.
@MrJakobBrown So why does he keep muting the possibilities of running her over 8f in the UK? He first said the Queen Anne at Ascot and when Frankel's connections did not rule it out he switched to the Sussex Stakes cos he knows its guaranteed that Frankel will have stepped up to 10f by that point.
Australia and their sprinters. Nobody can deny that they do in fact make brilliant sprinters. But brilliant sprinters alone and alas not world class classic winning horses. I agree with my learned friend that the Ascot Gold Cup is the premier long distance race in the world (by class) whereas the Melbourne Cup is the more prolific (like the Cheltenham Gold Cup is a better standard but the Grand National more prolific). I would like to see more Aus horses come over. The Arc is worth $5,000,000aus
@dubian99 Thanks Dubian mate, I bet he feels daft now. I just don't see where you'd get the idea he would lose that race. Totally surprised they would want to lay him.
By the way don't listen when these Aussies tell you Black Caviar hasn't been whipped yet because she was in her 4th race when she won by about 3/4 length. Not taking anything away because all horses need a gee-up at some time.
@leedelaney70 Flemington is a flat oval, track and it takes a particular type of horse to win the Melbourne Cup there. Irish trained horse, Vintage Crop, won the cup for Dermot Weld. He was a good stayer but ask anyone connected with horse racing on this side of the globe; even Dermot Weld himself, and they will tell you that he was not in the same class as Yeats. The Ascot Gold Cup is an extremely hard race to win. It is run over 4 extra furlongs than the MC and on a stiffer, undulating track
@Pactrolus I guess when you've ridden for several decades and tens of thousands of rides there might be the odd one that goes slightly awry, but he got a lot more right than wrong! Remember, the other jockeys still to this day call Pat Eddery "God" in appreciation of his skills. I have heard several say that even experienced jockeys were in awe of him and what he brought to a ride.
@bgardiner2000 i agree totally not only would the race be amazing think of the hype leading up to it.id have to think that it would turn out to be a match race because who in their right mind would enter their horse in that race knowing that the best your horse could possibly do is 3rd.i have been following racing for 30 years and i cant remember a time where you had 2 horses at the same time who are pretty much a lock to win and you know in racing nothing is a lock except for these 2.
Hey, has anyone got any thoughts about why Queally chose not to follow Bullet Train? I don't really get it, I must admit and I'm thinking again that Queally's not really the man for the job. People seem to be slamming Mongan for not doing his job right, but I'm not so sure. Surely he was there to give Frankel a lead and ensure a true run race? But Queally just ignores him and lets him disappear into the distance and then has to break out alone from the pack to hunt him down. I don't get it?
What time did Ms Andretti run in the Kings Stand and what was the previous record. Frankels trainer appears very timid in trying his horse outside his own backyard. If in Australia his bunny tactic would incur a warning. Those bunnies are not allowed to run on their merits, why have them in the field and some dill punter backing them when they have no chance Rerouted and Bullet Train are sad examples...really sad.
@tjjlm444 Hopefully it will get to a point where there is enough cash put up to the connections for them to want to risk an unbeaten record, over a distance that is in between their best. 7F would probably be the best bet. I have no doubt that Black Caviar could run a world class mile, but Frankel appears to be even better than that over the distance.
@leedelaney70 Yeats was lumped with top weight in that glorified 2 mile handicap - a handicap which actually suits horses who are nicely weighted, and moreover, horses who have raced and won at distances below 2 miles prior to the MC. Makybe Diva was a very good horse, no doubt about it, but had that horse's trainer and owners had the balls to send MD over for the Ascot Gold Cup then it would have been a different story. Prize money in Australia is much higher than in GB - hence why MD won more.
@tjjlm444 The thing about slow times is that all horses in the race are running the same speed. It doesn't give anyone an advantage. Unless of course you are a long way back. Mile races in the US are normally run similar to the way they are run in ANZ with a lot more early speed. I can't wait to see Frankel in such a race. With the run-up employed in the US handicapping system I have no doubt Frankel could run sub-1:33 or faster.
And it wasn't a case of Bullet Train going off far too fast at all. I think the sectionals for Frankel showed he dawdled the first furlong so it was a case of Queally choosing not to position his horse closer to the lead. I don't understand why Queally didn't just settle behind Bullet Train, dragging the others along faster, then explode at the 2f mark. Easy plan, I would say. If this wasn't the plan, I don't see why they ran Bullet Train.
@ThefightingCelt Just look at the records of past Ascot Gold Cup winners in the Melbourne Cup (the unofficial world championship stayers race). They generally finish tailed off. Even 4 time Ascot Gold Cup winner Yeats could only manage a plodding 7th when he contested the Melbourne Cup. Makybe Diva would have picked him up & carried him from the furlong pole ! Hence the reason Makybe Diva won AU$14.5 mill to Yeats approx AU$2.5 mill !!!!!
@leedelaney70 I did infact watch that race and it was hard not to be impressed when one hears afterwards what actually happened. It was good to see her come back and win so I was not "having a go" at Black Caviar but rather stating a fact. This fact should be held in mind when people say 'Black Caviar has not been hit with the whip' I would just like to hear people define what they are saying, eg: she has only been hit when she tore a muscle. As opposed to: she has never been hit
@MrJakobBrown Oh yes I did watch the race as well as understand the circumstances and given that it wasn't nice to watch. I was just stating that she has been whipped and even though she suffered in that, people cannot say she hadn't been whipped. They should define their statement.
frankel didnt break 11.5sec for 1 single furlong in this race. black caviar never has a sectional (apart from the one from a standing start out of the gates) over 11sec. usually does them in about 10.3sec. distance isnt going to be an issue... black caviar has already won at 7f, just has to step up 1 more furlong. if black caviar races at her usual speed up to 7f, she will be (and this is based on frankel vs caviars sectionals) around 7sec ahead of frankel with 1f left.
Mos likely course of 2012: Lockinge Stakes (G1) Newbury (May) 8 furlongs Prince Of Wales Stakes (G1) Ascot (June) 10 furlongs Coral Eclipse Stakes (G1) Sandown (July) 10 furlongs Juddmonte International Stakes (G1) York (August) 10 furlongs Qipco Champion Stakes (G1) Ascot (October) 10 furlongs This being he is unbeaten and that he wins as good over 1m2f as 1m. He would never run on dirt and there would be do point dropping back to a mile if he wins all the major 1m2f races (above).
@bgardiner2000 i agree with your comment about bc i think she could be also.i honestly cant see frankel getting beat pretty much at any distance also his cruising speed is unreal then when hes asked to run it looks like it takes the heart out of any horse hes ever raced against.i hear people talking about frankels slow times which is bs i think if he came to the breeders cup this year hed probably run a sub 1:33 mile and win fairly easy.
frankel was underrated, he had to prove every single pound in his rating so you know nothing. Arazi and Secretariat were beaten, Frankel was unbeaten for 3 consecutive years while he beat the best horses in the world. Secretariat faced good horses but not the best from the world in his time. Sec and Arazi had speed but not like Frankel who could sustain a high cruising speed for 3-4 furlongs and then had another accelerator and he would've went clear of both Arazi and Sec on their best day
@bbaacckkeerrss Wouldn't have anything to do with the big weights they have to carry over there would it? The MC isn't really suited to an Ascot Gold Cup type horse as they probably need further in OZ to make it a true stamina test.
@CharlesOlney23 She made amends the next Autumn though, winning 5 consecutive Group 1's incl 1200m Newmarket Hcp with 58kg's stopping the clock at 1:07.36. She clearly could have broken 1:07 had she been ridden out.
@bbaacckkeerrss got found out when he came here. He is a top class group 1 performer but he just wasn't quite good enough, but sure enough he was consistent and always ran within a lb or two of his rating. And the hysteria surrounding BC after her latest run is crazy. We know nothing more about her now than we did before they race. All she has proved is that she can run 7f, not race 7f and people saying here that she would smash Frankel are delusional, especially based upon her latest run.
I think they were a bit timid to put him on a plane..Has this horse ever raced outside the UK. Maybe they tried him out on a transport and the horse doesnt travel well.
you know i shouldnt be telling anyone this but im gonna tell you just dont repeat this to anyone he is a closet euro he just came out this week.now im trusting you to keep that between us.
There are TWO courses they used at Ascot that day, also first QEII on the straight mile, usually on the corner molest, times you can't compare, maybe you should compare Canford Cliffs time but it doesn't matter as Frankel destroyed Canford Cliffs anyway.
They will never race. BUT watch some replays and count the amount of strides in the final 2 furlongs of both Frankel and Black Caviar. BC does about 52-53 Frankel does about 58-60. Frankel looks like he is flying as his legs are moving very fast. BC on the other hand doesnt look that fast as she is just loping along and covering a lot of ground. Watch the replays. see for yourself. IMO if BC were trained for a mile, she would beat him by 3 lengths. Shame we will never see it.
@bbaacckkeerrss yeah you keep telling yourself that mate if it makes you feel better. The funny thing is he has run to pretty much the same rating as he was given before he came over so he hasn't performed under real expectations just the ones his fans on here gave him. The real reason is the strength in depth in the middle distance ranks in Europe, and i wouldn't consider last year as a vintage one either.
Black Caviar once ran THREE sub 10 second furlongs consecutively in one race! Has Frankel (cotton wool 'Champion') ever broken 10 seconds for a furlong ??
4 роки тому
Yes Frankel ran 9.6 secs on the Newmarket gallops when tracking Bullitt Train. Henry was shocked but knew Frankel was raw and in some races it's not only about speed but about timing. So please don't kid yourself Frankel would have beaten anything maybe except Secretariat and Sea Bird.
Frankel could come over to Aus or go to the US and break track records easily under the right circumstances. Don't fool yourself into thinking he isn't all that good because of his times, it is just a result of much slower conditions
Surely someone at Ladbrokes is getting their balls chewed after the weekend! Who decided it was a good idea to lay Frankel and offer 1/2? There was nothing there to reach the conclusion Frankel would lose. He has been bulletproof and the only time he hasn't demolished the field is when Queally rode a very poor race, from which he seems to have learned a lesson. I didn't think for one minute that Frankel would not win this race. Crazy!
Ortensia has since won group one in UK. She is not top notch I agree but she is still capable of beating UK sprinters. Hay List has always raced with bad hooves, he will be a force when they get him right. He was moved from WA to the East because of this and to the trainer who has him. He will kill them at Ascot if he goes and is 90% fit. The horse is pure muscle and will eat the hill at Ascot.
@bloodsuckerjohn spot on, mate. I've always thought Eddery would have been made for this horse. Harsh I know on Queally, but I'm sure Frankel would have been even more devastating with Eddery on board. The way Eddery rode Pebbles to that stroll in the 1985 Champion Stakes is the way he would have ridden Frankel every time.
Frankel is the best miler in the world and perhaps the best of all time! If Black Caviar wants to be tested she can travel to take on Frankel, not the other way around. Unfortunately for her she will lose and lose big time and so I don't see this happening.
Frankel was brilliant !!! Credit where due - 2012 Q.Anne was a spectacular performance! I know more about TF than halfwit that posted previous comment. TF is extremely Euro biased. Their methodology is disingenuous clumsy and very biased. My ratings are very superior to TF (I made 127% profit last month. TF % losses?) Three cheers for Frankel - that was awesome
@thegun88888 Why wasnt she at the Breeders Cup competing in the Turf Sprint? Instead she travelled round the corner 5 minutes from her stable to beat a set of horses shes clearly better than, At least Frankel doesn't duck a challenger. Bring her on, She'll be like any other horse to cross swords with Frankel. Retired and finished...
@watchinginawe As I said, he was a great jockey. It can also be said of Queally that he gets more right than wrong. The only jockey that would have changed Frankel is Lester Piggott. He would have had him winning by a maximum of two lengths. We still wouldn't know how good the horse is!
@bazbizzler i think you'll find he ran a 10.99 furlong in this race, jesus at least do your research before you making such a claim. She may well run her furlongs quicker and as a sprinter she is entitled to do that. Tell me this though, why have do the Aussies horses to have raced in the uk run about 2-3 seconds slower than they do in Australia?
@MrNativeDancer 1400m would be fare. Frankle hasnt a hope as I said the Black C hasnt even been hit with the whip. You can see in he run in front and left alone to dictate the pace he win easy but if he doent he dont look that much of a champion. The black C for mine.
He beat senic blast who brained world champions in England 2009 and other who have taken on those in other countrys. Autralian breed horse are know for their speed horses. And BC hasnt been shown the whip yet.
I find that statement true as it may be to be a pack of twaddle this horse hasnt run close to 1.36 for the 8 furlongs. Some of his sectionals are really slow compared to milers in the US and Japan. How do they work these ratings out...It does sound like some blokes in a room rating horses on artistic merit.
Frankels 'G1' Q.Anne opposition are woeful - i could beat half the field on foot! G3 field at best. Frankel needs to win by at least 8L pulling up to remotely justify his 'rating'
Pointless argument really. Why would Black Caviar want to race Frankel over a mile on a slight uphill straight when she is unproven at that distance and also Frankel will up his distance. As Moody has said the only way they will meet is on a dark night when he climbs on top of her :)
@MrJakobBrown i have no doubt how great she is and is clearly the best sprinter in the world by some margin. The only issue i have is when straight after her Orr victory we had some halfwits on here saying that she would destroy Frankel over 8f. But then you get the same outrageous claims going he other way saying that he could beat her over 5 or 6f. I just think a bit more perspective is required sometimes.
Official betting for a Black Caviar and Frankel race in Queen Anne (if it happens) Frankel 4/6 Black Caviar 5/4 Anybody that says that isn't a good market is a fool.
@ThefightingCelt and Makybe Diva won the Melbourne Cup with top weight, as did Phar Lap, amongst many others. Champion horses can win with top weight. Sadly Yeats is no champion. You just answered your own question with regards to Makybe Diva not going to run in the Ascot Gold Cup. Why would anybody send any horse to the other side of the world to run in a less prestigious race for 10 times less prizemoney ? That would be just plain stupid !!!
@Umtang77 Umtang, I understand where you're coming from with your enthusiasm etc but I would have to say it is incredibly unlikely that Camelot is in Frankel's league. I wasn't overly impressed with Camelot's 2000g run although a Classic win is always of merit. As long as Frankel gets 10f say in the Eclipse I would fully expect him to soundly thrash the young pretender. Remember, Frankel could well go on to be the greatest racehorse of all time.
I realise that Frankel is the best horse in the world of this era. I will not class him as the best of all time when there was a horse called Secretariat who raced and beat the best pointlessly. in his best races he has a pacemaker avoids mixing it then sprints 2 furlongs. Leading 3 to 4 furlongs out he looked vulnerable. He has been wrapped in cotton wool. If I had a horse that good I would do the same. Eliminate his weaknesses and enhance his strengths/
I dont I have said that in the UK he is the best in the world but I still remember Shergar and Sea the Stars more recently so not the best of all time. But his owners and cecil refuse to race him anywhere else. The horse hasnt proven he can run time even with pacemakers.
@ThefightingCelt The Derby is for 3yo's bred to Northern Hemisphere time & The Arc coincides with the world famous Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival. Anyway, why would we send our horses to contest your so called prestigious races when they are run for 2 bob and a pat on the back ? In Australia we run for real money.
@trueunited12 Aiden O'Brien has admitted several times himself he got So You Think's preparation wrong and you can even watch him here on youtube admitting it !!!!! So You Think excelled with 2 month racing preps in Australia and O'Brien decides to keep him racing for 7 months in his 1st racing prep in Nth Hemisphere. Oh the wisdom of the fella....
Frankel, best miler there has ever been. and now that he's stepping up in distance to 1m 2f next season he could well prove himself to be the horse in the history of racing!!!
Frankel is a great horse no doubt about it, no one can deny that! He constantly tries his hardest and wins!
I don't profess to know a whole hell of a lot. But this much I do know. Sir Henry Cecil has trained some incredible horses in his 40+ years as a trainer, and Prince Khalid Abdullah has owned some incredible horses in his 40+ years as an owner. When both say publicly, for the record, that Frankel's the best horse they've ever trained, owned, or seen. You can't just summarily dismiss that as hype.
Other horses had unbelievable performances in two or three races. Frankel had Jaw dropping performances in eleven of his fourteen races. Thats what made him great.
Thank you so much for making sure Ben got to see it. He did see it and said he thinks he is the best horse in training.
I think you're exactly right about the fact that Frankel and BC will never race other. I just don't think both camps would ever agree on all the terms that both would to try set down for a race between them. If BC does race in the Golden Jubilee? IMO, win, lose, or draw, she'll be loaded up and taken back to Australia, and there she'll stay until she's eventually retired to being a broodmare. And Peter Moody will be able to say he pleased the masses by bringing her to Ascot one time.
I've been caught up watching replays of the less than stellar BC Classic, but I do need to revisit the BC Mile. The focus was on Goldikova, she ran decent, but clearly she's not what she once was. That said, if Frankel had made the trip here to the U.S., we may have had the first 1-5 shot in BC history. The result of that race only solidifies the fact that this is truly a once in a lifetime animal. IMO he would have embarrassed the field by at least 4, if not more. Hopefully Santa Anita in 2012.
@147ard he wasn't going flat out untill inside the last furlong when tom queally whipped him. u could see how much he quickened then.
you watch the video of arazi and secretariat best wins, belmont and bc juvenile and mute them without hearing the commentator, while doing the same for frankel guineas, frankel queen anne and frankel juddmonte, you'll be astonished from what you'll feel without the commentary.
Looking at comments on here is so funny especially from aussies and yanks they are so deluded in there comments.Frankel is the top rated horse in the world when he was racing.British racing is the best in the world FACT
Imagine the babies if they got together. They would be doubly unstoppable. I love Tom Queally's tactics in this race. Bullet Train is a pacemaker and nothing else though he does look very impressive when he storms off into that lead.
yep same pat that won on golden fleece and quest for fame and irish derby on el gran senor a few weeks later i think pat thought he would find more than he did
Imagine having an unbeaten Black Caviar and unbeaten Frankel meet next year at Ascot. The way they are both going she would be 19-20 and Frankel 12-13? You couldn't write a better script. Although it's very unlikely to ever happen, the thought of it is still completely alluring.
@bazbizzler download the sectionals from the britishchampionseries website under race results and you will see that Frankel ran 10.99 - fact! Come back to me when BC runs the last 3f at Ascot in under 33 seconds. It depends on the track and track conditions. If you get good/firm going then those kind of sectionals are only just about in reach
Recently moved here to australia and i cant get over this black caviar hype, the last race i saw her win was like a class 6 at kempton in november...do people seriously reckon she can stick with the likes of a frankel???i doubt it very much guys lol
corkonians didn't say that BC ran at Kempton, he made a disparaging comparison of her race to a class 6 at Kempton.
Let him repeat what moody says mate, I will, here is something Moody said this week and you can find it on theblack caviar facebook page in audio ''you know, frankel is the best horse in the world and he's the best horse I've ever seen'' he said it so matter of factly. So let him :D
Was there this day machine he was 😊
@flickyflicky007 Again Aussie horse don't run that fast in the UK, its almost impossible and i can guarantee that BC won't be running those kind of sectionals over here. Don't forget 1f is longer than 200m anyway. I would also say that Peter Moody is the one who is scared (a realist i would think) as he has said they won't be aiming here at the Queen Anne at Ascot.
Frankel is just incredible. The time of the race is really immaterial. The faster they had travelled the further he would have won. Bring on Black Caviar. Frankel will devour her!
Shows how amazing this horse is that some people were slightly disappointed with this performance. Only the admirable Excelebration got within 8 lengths of him! I have to say as well that I honestly believe that with a better jockey these margins of victory would be even wider. I get the impression Frankel is controlling Queally rather than the other way round. Oh for a young Pat Eddery to smoothly deliver this beast at the right time. The master would get it right a la Pebbles in 1985.
no, the pace-maker at the front ran a 10.99. but regardless, black caviar never runs a sectional over 11 unless its the sectional out of the gate at a standing start, or when she's already 5 lengths clear and is easing up on the line, even then she runs about a 11.2 while the jockey takes a nap.
and Australian horses have run slower, the same, and quicker over there. generally with races up to a mile its pretty much the same (slower times if theyre an average horse)
With all due respect to Goldikova, and what she's accomplished over the course of her career at a mile. I don't think I can ever recall a horse more explosive or dominant over a mile as Frankel has proven to be. I think Freddie Head is lucky that Khalid Abdullah and Henry Cecil aren't sending this brute to the BC Mile, or her 4th win in the race would be very unlikely, IMO. Can't wait to see him next season at middle distances. Even if he doesn't ever run 12f? I think he'll dominate at 10f. JMO.
@watchinginawe Hmmn! Would that be the same Pat Eddery (a great jockey) who got El Gran Senor beat in The Derby?
@tivashley Mate you need to learn a bit about the effects of track conditions on times. Do you know why there is 5 seconds difference in the Flemington and Ascot 6f track records? It's not because the UK horses are 5 seconds worse, it's because the track over there is so much stiffer and slower. Look at Goldikova running 132 or 133 in the US and look how much slower she was in the UK.
@MrJakobBrown So why does he keep muting the possibilities of running her over 8f in the UK? He first said the Queen Anne at Ascot and when Frankel's connections did not rule it out he switched to the Sussex Stakes cos he knows its guaranteed that Frankel will have stepped up to 10f by that point.
Australia and their sprinters. Nobody can deny that they do in fact make brilliant sprinters. But brilliant sprinters alone and alas not world class classic winning horses. I agree with my learned friend that the Ascot Gold Cup is the premier long distance race in the world (by class) whereas the Melbourne Cup is the more prolific (like the Cheltenham Gold Cup is a better standard but the Grand National more prolific). I would like to see more Aus horses come over. The Arc is worth $5,000,000aus
They are called trolls mate just ignore them,true horse racing fans know both horse are amazing,and would be a good match up if it were to happen.
@dubian99 Thanks Dubian mate, I bet he feels daft now. I just don't see where you'd get the idea he would lose that race. Totally surprised they would want to lay him.
Im a bit surprised to see these furlong times because i thought Frankel could run Furlongs in under 11 seconds?
By the way don't listen when these Aussies tell you Black Caviar hasn't been whipped yet because she was in her 4th race when she won by about 3/4 length. Not taking anything away because all horses need a gee-up at some time.
Grow up everybody,,, give both horses credit for what they have done. Children!
@leedelaney70 Flemington is a flat oval, track and it takes a particular type of horse to win the Melbourne Cup there. Irish trained horse, Vintage Crop, won the cup for Dermot Weld. He was a good stayer but ask anyone connected with horse racing on this side of the globe; even Dermot Weld himself, and they will tell you that he was not in the same class as Yeats. The Ascot Gold Cup is an extremely hard race to win. It is run over 4 extra furlongs than the MC and on a stiffer, undulating track
@Pactrolus I guess when you've ridden for several decades and tens of thousands of rides there might be the odd one that goes slightly awry, but he got a lot more right than wrong! Remember, the other jockeys still to this day call Pat Eddery "God" in appreciation of his skills. I have heard several say that even experienced jockeys were in awe of him and what he brought to a ride.
@bgardiner2000 i agree totally not only would the race be amazing think of the hype leading up to it.id have to think that it would turn out to be a match race because who in their right mind would enter their horse in that race knowing that the best your horse could possibly do is 3rd.i have been following racing for 30 years and i cant remember a time where you had 2 horses at the same time who are pretty much a lock to win and you know in racing nothing is a lock except for these 2.
watvh the videos of arazi and secretariat and compare immediately to frankel....
Hey, has anyone got any thoughts about why Queally chose not to follow Bullet Train? I don't really get it, I must admit and I'm thinking again that Queally's not really the man for the job. People seem to be slamming Mongan for not doing his job right, but I'm not so sure. Surely he was there to give Frankel a lead and ensure a true run race? But Queally just ignores him and lets him disappear into the distance and then has to break out alone from the pack to hunt him down. I don't get it?
Thank you so much.I want to watch this race very much. This RACE is very GOOD.S.Tahara. P.S Very exciting RACE. Than JAPAN Horse RACING.
What time did Ms Andretti run in the Kings Stand and what was the previous record. Frankels trainer appears very timid in trying his horse outside his own backyard. If in Australia his bunny tactic would incur a warning. Those bunnies are not allowed to run on their merits, why have them in the field and some dill punter backing them when they have no chance Rerouted and Bullet Train are sad examples...really sad.
@tjjlm444 Hopefully it will get to a point where there is enough cash put up to the connections for them to want to risk an unbeaten record, over a distance that is in between their best. 7F would probably be the best bet. I have no doubt that Black Caviar could run a world class mile, but Frankel appears to be even better than that over the distance.
Black Caviar and Frankel - I would like to see that
@leedelaney70 Yeats was lumped with top weight in that glorified 2 mile handicap - a handicap which actually suits horses who are nicely weighted, and moreover, horses who have raced and won at distances below 2 miles prior to the MC. Makybe Diva was a very good horse, no doubt about it, but had that horse's trainer and owners had the balls to send MD over for the Ascot Gold Cup then it would have been a different story. Prize money in Australia is much higher than in GB - hence why MD won more.
@tjjlm444 The thing about slow times is that all horses in the race are running the same speed. It doesn't give anyone an advantage. Unless of course you are a long way back. Mile races in the US are normally run similar to the way they are run in ANZ with a lot more early speed. I can't wait to see Frankel in such a race. With the run-up employed in the US handicapping system I have no doubt Frankel could run sub-1:33 or faster.
And it wasn't a case of Bullet Train going off far too fast at all. I think the sectionals for Frankel showed he dawdled the first furlong so it was a case of Queally choosing not to position his horse closer to the lead. I don't understand why Queally didn't just settle behind Bullet Train, dragging the others along faster, then explode at the 2f mark. Easy plan, I would say. If this wasn't the plan, I don't see why they ran Bullet Train.
@ThefightingCelt Just look at the records of past Ascot Gold Cup winners in the Melbourne Cup (the unofficial world championship stayers race). They generally finish tailed off. Even 4 time Ascot Gold Cup winner Yeats could only manage a plodding 7th when he contested the Melbourne Cup. Makybe Diva would have picked him up & carried him from the furlong pole ! Hence the reason Makybe Diva won AU$14.5 mill to Yeats approx AU$2.5 mill !!!!!
@leedelaney70 I did infact watch that race and it was hard not to be impressed when one hears afterwards what actually happened. It was good to see her come back and win so I was not "having a go" at Black Caviar but rather stating a fact. This fact should be held in mind when people say 'Black Caviar has not been hit with the whip' I would just like to hear people define what they are saying, eg: she has only been hit when she tore a muscle. As opposed to: she has never been hit
@MrJakobBrown Oh yes I did watch the race as well as understand the circumstances and given that it wasn't nice to watch. I was just stating that she has been whipped and even though she suffered in that, people cannot say she hadn't been whipped. They should define their statement.
frankel didnt break 11.5sec for 1 single furlong in this race. black caviar never has a sectional (apart from the one from a standing start out of the gates) over 11sec. usually does them in about 10.3sec. distance isnt going to be an issue... black caviar has already won at 7f, just has to step up 1 more furlong. if black caviar races at her usual speed up to 7f, she will be (and this is based on frankel vs caviars sectionals) around 7sec ahead of frankel with 1f left.
Mos likely course of 2012:
Lockinge Stakes (G1) Newbury (May) 8 furlongs
Prince Of Wales Stakes (G1) Ascot (June) 10 furlongs
Coral Eclipse Stakes (G1) Sandown (July) 10 furlongs
Juddmonte International Stakes (G1) York (August) 10 furlongs
Qipco Champion Stakes (G1) Ascot (October) 10 furlongs
This being he is unbeaten and that he wins as good over 1m2f as 1m.
He would never run on dirt and there would be do point dropping back to a mile if he wins all the major 1m2f races (above).
@bgardiner2000 i agree with your comment about bc i think she could be also.i honestly cant see frankel getting beat pretty much at any distance also his cruising speed is unreal then when hes asked to run it looks like it takes the heart out of any horse hes ever raced against.i hear people talking about frankels slow times which is bs i think if he came to the breeders cup this year hed probably run a sub 1:33 mile and win fairly easy.
frankel was underrated, he had to prove every single pound in his rating so you know nothing. Arazi and Secretariat were beaten, Frankel was unbeaten for 3 consecutive years while he beat the best horses in the world. Secretariat faced good horses but not the best from the world in his time. Sec and Arazi had speed but not like Frankel who could sustain a high cruising speed for 3-4 furlongs and then had another accelerator and he would've went clear of both Arazi and Sec on their best day
AI Cylosh sea the stars had a 4th on his record but was a machine. Would a liked ta see another couple races from frankel though me all tome favourite
And 2 seconds isnt pie apple its a long time and a lot of metres.
i reckon hes good enough to win the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe
you are just so cool and will never be beaten. that australian camel couldn't lace your hooves. you beautiful beautiful boy!!!!!!!
@bbaacckkeerrss Wouldn't have anything to do with the big weights they have to carry over there would it? The MC isn't really suited to an Ascot Gold Cup type horse as they probably need further in OZ to make it a true stamina test.
@CharlesOlney23 She made amends the next Autumn though, winning 5 consecutive Group 1's incl 1200m Newmarket Hcp with 58kg's stopping the clock at 1:07.36. She clearly could have broken 1:07 had she been ridden out.
@bbaacckkeerrss got found out when he came here. He is a top class group 1 performer but he just wasn't quite good enough, but sure enough he was consistent and always ran within a lb or two of his rating. And the hysteria surrounding BC after her latest run is crazy. We know nothing more about her now than we did before they race. All she has proved is that she can run 7f, not race 7f and people saying here that she would smash Frankel are delusional, especially based upon her latest run.
I think they were a bit timid to put him on a plane..Has this horse ever raced outside the UK. Maybe they tried him out on a transport and the horse doesnt travel well.
you know i shouldnt be telling anyone this but im gonna tell you just dont repeat this to anyone he is a closet euro he just came out this week.now im trusting you to keep that between us.
Yeah Frankel the best of his time. I don´t know wheather he beat Sekreteriat or Seabird.A great question. Never get the answer.
Not Dettori, Tom Queally. I'd like to see her overcome that.
There are TWO courses they used at Ascot that day, also first QEII on the straight mile, usually on the corner molest, times you can't compare, maybe you should compare Canford Cliffs time but it doesn't matter as Frankel destroyed Canford Cliffs anyway.
They will never race. BUT watch some replays and count the amount of strides in the final 2 furlongs of both Frankel and Black Caviar. BC does about 52-53 Frankel does about 58-60. Frankel looks like he is flying as his legs are moving very fast. BC on the other hand doesnt look that fast as she is just loping along and covering a lot of ground. Watch the replays. see for yourself. IMO if BC were trained for a mile, she would beat him by 3 lengths. Shame we will never see it.
Are you calling Canford cliffs a bad race horse, excelebration a bad horse. dubawi gold a bad race horse?
@bbaacckkeerrss yeah you keep telling yourself that mate if it makes you feel better. The funny thing is he has run to pretty much the same rating as he was given before he came over so he hasn't performed under real expectations just the ones his fans on here gave him. The real reason is the strength in depth in the middle distance ranks in Europe, and i wouldn't consider last year as a vintage one either.
Black Caviar once ran THREE sub 10 second furlongs consecutively in one race! Has Frankel (cotton wool 'Champion') ever broken 10 seconds for a furlong ??
Yes Frankel ran 9.6 secs on the Newmarket gallops when tracking Bullitt Train. Henry was shocked but knew Frankel was raw and in some races it's not only about speed but about timing. So please don't kid yourself Frankel would have beaten anything maybe except Secretariat and Sea Bird.
And they call him a training wizard!
Frankel could come over to Aus or go to the US and break track records easily under the right circumstances. Don't fool yourself into thinking he isn't all that good because of his times, it is just a result of much slower conditions
Surely someone at Ladbrokes is getting their balls chewed after the weekend! Who decided it was a good idea to lay Frankel and offer 1/2? There was nothing there to reach the conclusion Frankel would lose. He has been bulletproof and the only time he hasn't demolished the field is when Queally rode a very poor race, from which he seems to have learned a lesson. I didn't think for one minute that Frankel would not win this race. Crazy!
Ortensia has since won group one in UK. She is not top notch I agree but she is still capable of beating UK sprinters. Hay List has always raced with bad hooves, he will be a force when they get him right. He was moved from WA to the East because of this and to the trainer who has him. He will kill them at Ascot if he goes and is 90% fit. The horse is pure muscle and will eat the hill at Ascot.
@bloodsuckerjohn spot on, mate. I've always thought Eddery would have been made for this horse. Harsh I know on Queally, but I'm sure Frankel would have been even more devastating with Eddery on board. The way Eddery rode Pebbles to that stroll in the 1985 Champion Stakes is the way he would have ridden Frankel every time.
Frankel is the best miler in the world and perhaps the best of all time! If Black Caviar wants to be tested she can travel to take on Frankel, not the other way around. Unfortunately for her she will lose and lose big time and so I don't see this happening.
@ThefightingCelt true
Frankel was brilliant !!!
Credit where due - 2012 Q.Anne was a spectacular performance!
I know more about TF than halfwit that posted previous comment. TF is extremely Euro biased. Their methodology is disingenuous clumsy and very biased. My ratings are very superior to TF (I made 127% profit last month. TF % losses?)
Three cheers for Frankel - that was awesome
@thegun88888 Why wasnt she at the Breeders Cup competing in the Turf Sprint? Instead she travelled round the corner 5 minutes from her stable to beat a set of horses shes clearly better than, At least Frankel doesn't duck a challenger. Bring her on, She'll be like any other horse to cross swords with Frankel. Retired and finished...
BC is a 6 furlong horse not a miler
didn't you say you made 127% profit? Uhm, changing your story again Walter.
@watchinginawe As I said, he was a great jockey. It can also be said of Queally that he gets more right than wrong. The only jockey that would have changed Frankel is Lester Piggott. He would have had him winning by a maximum of two lengths. We still wouldn't know how good the horse is!
@bazbizzler i think you'll find he ran a 10.99 furlong in this race, jesus at least do your research before you making such a claim. She may well run her furlongs quicker and as a sprinter she is entitled to do that. Tell me this though, why have do the Aussies horses to have raced in the uk run about 2-3 seconds slower than they do in Australia?
brilliant i would like to have seen pat eddery ride in his hey day would have sat motionless then woosh
Brilliant!!! what a horse x
@MrNativeDancer 1400m would be fare. Frankle hasnt a hope as I said the Black C hasnt even been hit with the whip. You can see in he run in front and left alone to dictate the pace he win easy but if he doent he dont look that much of a champion. The black C for mine.
@CharlesOlney23 Hope it happens but dont think it will,distance an issue.
Miler*
He beat senic blast who brained world champions in England 2009 and other who have taken on those in other countrys. Autralian breed horse are know for their speed horses. And BC hasnt been shown the whip yet.
I find that statement true as it may be to be a pack of twaddle this horse hasnt run close to 1.36 for the 8 furlongs. Some of his sectionals are really slow compared to milers in the US and Japan. How do they work these ratings out...It does sound like some blokes in a room rating horses on artistic merit.
Frankels 'G1' Q.Anne opposition are woeful - i could beat half the field on foot! G3 field at best.
Frankel needs to win by at least 8L pulling up to remotely justify his 'rating'
Pointless argument really. Why would Black Caviar want to race Frankel over a mile on a slight uphill straight when she is unproven at that distance and also Frankel will up his distance. As Moody has said the only way they will meet is on a dark night when he climbs on top of her :)
@MrJakobBrown i have no doubt how great she is and is clearly the best sprinter in the world by some margin. The only issue i have is when straight after her Orr victory we had some halfwits on here saying that she would destroy Frankel over 8f. But then you get the same outrageous claims going he other way saying that he could beat her over 5 or 6f. I just think a bit more perspective is required sometimes.
Official betting for a Black Caviar and Frankel race in Queen Anne (if it happens)
Frankel 4/6
Black Caviar 5/4
Anybody that says that isn't a good market is a fool.
@ThefightingCelt and Makybe Diva won the Melbourne Cup with top weight, as did Phar Lap, amongst many others. Champion horses can win with top weight. Sadly Yeats is no champion. You just answered your own question with regards to Makybe Diva not going to run in the Ascot Gold Cup. Why would anybody send any horse to the other side of the world to run in a less prestigious race for 10 times less prizemoney ? That would be just plain stupid !!!
@Umtang77 Umtang, I understand where you're coming from with your enthusiasm etc but I would have to say it is incredibly unlikely that Camelot is in Frankel's league. I wasn't overly impressed with Camelot's 2000g run although a Classic win is always of merit. As long as Frankel gets 10f say in the Eclipse I would fully expect him to soundly thrash the young pretender. Remember, Frankel could well go on to be the greatest racehorse of all time.
I realise that Frankel is the best horse in the world of this era. I will not class him as the best of all time when there was a horse called Secretariat who raced and beat the best pointlessly. in his best races he has a pacemaker avoids mixing it then sprints 2 furlongs. Leading 3 to 4 furlongs out he looked vulnerable. He has been wrapped in cotton wool. If I had a horse that good I would do the same. Eliminate his weaknesses and enhance his strengths/
@HadleyReisMC She's WON 8 GROUP 1 races from 1000m - 1400m and she has THRASHED 16 individual Group 1 winners so talk sense will you !
@MrNativeDancer Died 2 weeks after his last race at Agua,possible poisoning or too much colic.So no
Frankel ostora ajmel makayn fl3aalam galek dubawi achmen dubawi chnchto
I dont I have said that in the UK he is the best in the world but I still remember Shergar and Sea the Stars more recently so not the best of all time. But his owners and cecil refuse to race him anywhere else. The horse hasnt proven he can run time even with pacemakers.
@ThefightingCelt The Derby is for 3yo's bred to Northern Hemisphere time & The Arc coincides with the world famous Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival. Anyway, why would we send our horses to contest your so called prestigious races when they are run for 2 bob and a pat on the back ? In Australia we run for real money.
@HadleyReisMC agreed , such as haylist , frankel would kill BC
@trueunited12 Aiden O'Brien has admitted several times himself he got So You Think's preparation wrong and you can even watch him here on youtube admitting it !!!!! So You Think excelled with 2 month racing preps in Australia and O'Brien decides to keep him racing for 7 months in his 1st racing prep in Nth Hemisphere. Oh the wisdom of the fella....