Thanks to Pádraig O'Kane @ Streetwise Guitar for doing this! Catch the full conversation right here ( ua-cam.com/video/cfr8z_swDWE/v-deo.html ) and subscribe to his channel for other great interviews and lessons.
This is the funny thing about guitar players. No matter how good you are at one thing you always want to do the thing you can't do and even when you achieve it, it doesn't feel that cool anymore and then you find something else you can't do and you are in this permanent state of "why can't I play that? I suck"
@@troygrady dude, I swear when I started guitar my mission was to play the solo in master of puppets. Now I can do the gilbert licks, Johnson pentatonics, some of Yngwie's licks, EVH... I'm way better than what I wanted to be initially and I still hate myself every time after I watch Anton Oparin play!! Haha
@@MrMetalhorse Stop trying to satisfy your ego which tells you that you are not good enough (you cannot do it). Instead, get the original musical ideas that are already inside you out. I doubt that James Hetfield is really THAT much better than you. Be honest. You don't really suck. Your ego is a liar. Show it who is boss.
@@iganpparamarta8813 Cool! I am glad to hear that. I've been playing since 1998 and still feel like I "should" learn arpeggios. But why do I NEED to do that? To be as good as ______ somebody? I don't even know. I can play anything I feel and get any music I dream up out of my head through the guitar. I alternate pick every single note I play (I think?). I learned from this channel that I have my pick angled at a 40 degree angle (I forget the term- "pickslant"?) and I have the tip not pointed directly at the strings- it's rotated a little to the side so i just kind of glance off the string without digging deep in. That's the technique that works for me anyway. And I cannot play any of that stuff that you listed... Yngwie, Gilbert, etc... For an example of "not being good enough", my mother quit playing accordion 30+ years ago because she thought she was "faking it" because she couldn't read music- she was just making it sound right. So, she was a natural, but thought she was a fake because she couldn't read the notes on the paper. So she quit. 30 years ago. Stupid ego! I think it is usually our parents who teach us that we are not ever good enough and need to try harder to try to become good enough. The things we learn and observe up through age 7 are actually imprinted in our brains and become what we really believe- and act like a filter we view the world (and ourselves) through. Rock on!
Outstanding analysis. It's clear Troy has totally assimilated all his investigations and analyses on a very wide but deep level. I really do feel Troy has fundamentally altered our knowledge of guitar plectrum technique like no-one else in history. I am so in awe of your effort and achievement and I thank you.
Which is scary and goal setting at the same time. You can tell his videos aren't just for us. He shows the technique of the great master pickers while being one himself.
Troy's speaking as fast as he picks, that must be economy breathing 😂 but seriously thanks for all the things you've done to clarify the picking myth, as a violinist moving on to guitar the way you explain things makes a lot of sense. Probably the best if not the only. 👍
If we were to apply the standards of a "single picking technique" like economy or alternate picking to the fretting hand, the limitations of that strategy would immediately become obvious. Certain fretting/fingerings work significantly better on specific patterns. To deny that would force you to use "bad" fingerings, and the results would reflect that. The same is true for picking. I think it is best to learn a variety of picking patterns, and understand where they work best and why. Thanks
I've been blown away by the Troy stuff. This video is no exception - really makes you think. To enable full improvisation freedom, I practice patterns using the following: 1. Alternate picking, starting with downstroke 2. Economy picking starting with downstroke 3. Alternate picking, starting with upstroke 4. Economy picking starting with upstroke I'll usually spend 2 days on alternate picking and 1 day on economy (day 3). I aim for max speed on day 3, the economy picking day, and I'm always sold on the idea that economy is faster. But I think of economy picking as a chef using a microwave - you get your warm, ready to eat food but you don't get the satisfaction of cooking the meal (given by alternate picking).
This was a great interview and talk! I watched the whole thing and I really enjoyed it! You are so right...every picking style has it's own rules and note setup and they all can work to improvise and play great music and no one style of picking is better than the other. Great to hear you talk about this stuff! :)
Some time ago I made a conscious effort to switch to full economy picking. The thinking was that from a pure physics point of view, it was much faster to use whatever stroke was closest to the string you were moving to than to jump over the approach string and then come in behind it (so to speak) in order to keep the rigorous up/down/up/down pattern of strict alternate picking. In essence this means there's a lot more "sweeping" going on but it greatly opened up what I was able to play much faster because there is less "distance" I need to travel when switching strings. Then I simply practice different odd/even note combinations when switching over two strings to get it into my DNA and this made it so much easier, at least for me. I can blaze through the 5-note EJ pentatonic pattern demonstrated here by Troy but fully using economy picking to do so. It was a real revelation for me after always getting stuck not being able to play faster passages as a strict alternate picker previously
I think that alternate picking can be defined as a subset of economy picking if you want to define alternate picking as a specific style. The problem is that I don't think economy picking is a rigidly defined style, it is more fuzzy. That being said, I think the important takeaway here is that economy picking means that you are primarily focusing on the notes you are playing, how you pick is determined by the situation and your specific style. The way economy picking gives you more freedom is that you aren't locked into a certain style, you can sweep pick, alternate pick, or do whatever you think makes the most sense in that particular situation. I think the main problem with alternate picking is that it is often taught as a method for fixing the issue of only doing down picks or up picks. There is no denying that it is better to pick in both directions at different times but the issue is saying that every second pick should be in the opposite direction. I also believe that pure alternate picking can help with timing in a sense but it also works to restrict your timing options just as much.
Economy 4 life! It took my brain some time to rewire from years of alternate picking to economy picking, and there was a point in the middle where I couldn't do any of them at all, but now I feel like I have a freedom on the fretboard I never had before. I'm not even talking about speed, just the ability to easily change string no matter the direction of my last picking changed my approach to melody too.
Troy, thank you for bringing the rigor of scientific analysis to the guitar community. You are fantastic at combining art and science, and that’s what music is, at the end of the day. Well done!
german here: we have 4 cases also you're right except for some certain products like ketchup, nutella and cola which are regionally different masculine/feminine or neuter, we don't think about those things.
@@troygrady no, not at all. in hochdeutsch it's pretty clear an hardly anyone has a problem with it. immigrants and people who grew up in rural areas where there's mostly speakers with thick dialects it might be different, but for the vast majority of native speakers they don't think about this, they just speak it. to get back to the subject of guitar: after 15years of playing i decided to take lessons. my teacher showed me one of those paul gilbert style speed excercises. when i sttempted it at first, i got pretty fast, but my teacher said i was pickkng it weirdly. i didn't even think about how i picked it, i just did. i was almost as fast as him at the peak, but when i tried his picking pattern (starting with an upstroke on the higher string and then downstroke, upstroke, downstroke on the lower) it totally threw me off and i couldn't even play it right when playing way slower. when i conciously had to think about my right hand motions, i had trouble with an otherwise quite playable passage.
Troy's content is just too good. When Cascade came out 5 or 6 years ago, I just couldn't believe that there was content that good out there. And his platform has only gotten better and better. A little side benefit was that he introduced us all to the merits of the Gibson Nighthawk. Rock star.
It´s so obvious that the smarter way is learning both techniques as good as you can, and one thing you will learn by doing that is the better you get at one usually makes you better at the other. My economy started to sound a lot more accurate when I saw Troy´s videos and worked on my alternate using his approaches.
I'm nearly 8 minutes in and the other dude hasn't had a chance but to say 2 words! LOLOLOL Edit.....I finished the video and the guy didn't say anything but "uh huh"......I'm hoping there's more to this conversation .BTW, I love Troy's content.
Yes, sorry I was being "interviewed", so this is me in "explain the technical stuff" mode, which seemed to be what was Pádraig was looking for here. Still, lesson learned - I've made the mental note to cut the answers shorter and make sure I'm not going off on long-winded tangents.
@@troygrady I think in the full context (of you being interviewee rather than interviewer), it is not a valid criticism. ...and some of us enjoy long-winded tangents! No need to change your style or content, imo.
@@troygrady Ahhhhh no worries Troy!!! Like thousands of others, your info/channel has transformed my playing!!! And it now makes sense that YOU were the one being interviewed!
i do a semi-alternate-economy picking thing where I would prioritize sweeping string changes whenever possible but when a sequence requires alternate picking I just do that. Also in contexts where sweeping is possible but alternate picking is favourable
5:02 Totally agree. Maintenance is much easier than alternate picking. And I benefited from it after starting learning bass and learning the double thumbing technique. The hand movements translate very well.
This is great. I talk about this with all my guitar need friends in nyc. How we don’t like rules when we play improv but we all use them without knowing
It’s an interesting question to ask who is really the most “improvisational” player and how would you measure that? Which technique(s) would those players tend to use? All I know is I’m excellent at being boring with all techniques!
If you love down-picking on the lower strings then you should try up-picking on the higher strings, and learn how to up-pick on the down beat. The motion is like pulling, and the attack looks like a chicken pecking.
Man, this content is great! Can't wait to hop into the Cacking the Code train! During the interview, you mentioned these techniques taking you to different creative places. Do you write any music? You are by far the most knowledgeable player I've ever seen, and I'd love to see you put this knowledge to a good use. I bet you must be able to write some cool music. Also, thanks a lot for putting a huge ammount of content for free on UA-cam. This is the biggest revolution in guitar teaching ever. You rule!
Our primary focus is teaching. However all the soundtrack in our lessons is original stuff - like the song at the intro to this video from a while back: ua-cam.com/video/39eiJhkzm2o/v-deo.html
oh man i so wish this information was available to me when i was 15-16..would have saved so much time figuring all of this out, mostly by myself...anyways so glad we have this knowledge out now, thank you Troy!
I'm not really sure I agree with this, and I'd like someone else to clarify if I'm wrong but... as far as I understand, alternate and economy picking aren't the only two ways to play using the pick only. There's also directional picking. Directional picking is different compared to economy picking because in economy picking you layout a picking sequence on a specific pattern to minimize motion, but in directional picking the only thing you're concerned about is whether the next note is on a higher string, a lower string, or the same string.. without worrying about what direction you're coming from. I.e you end a note on an upstroke and have to play a note on the string above it, you just sweep to the next one. If you have to play a note on the string above and you come from a downstroke, then you alternate pick it and skip the string you just played the note on. I do this, and although I'm not a virtuoso I've been able to get pretty decent at doing it to the point I think I would be able to get as fast as it's practical for a player using the same technique. On the same string you just alternate, then on a different string you either sweep towards it if the motion is already headed towards it or you skip the current string and continue the alternate motion towards the next one. And this is by just purely picking.. if you use legato you don't even have to skip it it's all about whether you want the machine gun string attack sound on the note or not. It's stylistic not a limitation.
I completely understand that what you are describing doesn't *feel* memorized to you. That's my point in this conversation. Everybody who gets good at a particular picking style, whatever it is, gets good enough where it feels like they're "just playing", and not just chaining together smaller units of motion they already know. They feel free, just as we do when speaking our nativel language. However, just as language has grammar and rules, so do motions, and the filming we have done supports this. We have interviewed exceptional players like Frank Gambale, Oz Noy, and Jimmy Bruno, and filmed their hands from a few inches away. Their styles are exactly what you're describing in terms of mixing alternate and sweep string changes, and yet, they don't all mix uniformly or get good at the same motions. Their mechanical vocabularies are all different, like fingerprints. There are some patterns you never see Frank make that Oz uses all the time, and vice versa. This is true of them, and of everyone else.
I thought i couldnt play certain things because i didnt practice enough not because i economy pick wow this was eye opening and explained why i cannot play certain phrases
This makes perfect sense. The goal of 'play anything, at any time, perfect accuracy" is a fallacy. It should not be the goal of any guitar player, and the younger you are when you learn this, the better. The music comes first, and the proficiency for your style is what should become the lifetime goal. Spending decades practicing to become perfect, somehow, is foolishness. Find out what works for you amd practice the best way to do that using these principles.
I don’t really make minimal movements. I think the simplest advice is that correct technique usually feels easy. If it doesn’t feel easy, even when going fast, you might just be doing it wrong. If so, try changing something about your form.
I spent 10 years forcing myself to play in alternate picking without ever succeeding in crossing the 120 bpm, 9 years ago instinctively I developed a technique which I did not know the name of at the time and which is called economy picking. Unfortunately, I wanted to force myself on alternate picking and I still can't pass 120 bpm in alternate, I reached 200 bpm in a month without difficulty in economy. I think I'll concentrate on what is the most instinctive for me, so economy picking
@@noneavailable5515 I tried pickslanting stuff for a year or so, that's really feel weird to my brain, economy is fluid to my brain, i d'ont really know what my right hand is doing, feels like a blackout moment. Alternate is so hard for me. Problem is changing technic take so much time, you can"t change every month. but i think that economy is my thing, as i said, i discovered it, by that time i was struggling with string hopping, my brain figured to bypass it with economy, i was lightning fast with it.
I just realized I’ve never once alternate picked correctly when I thought it was alternative picking I’ve been economy picking this whole time without knowing what it was.
Yes but he is like one in one billion. The only other player on earth I've ever heard who can pick like that is Roy Marchbank. For everyone else economy picking is so much more achievable.
I used to do economy picking naturally and was really good at it until a friend told me I need to do alternate picking only or I will be hurting my playing in the future. so, trying to learn alternate only, I ruined my technique. I hate alternate picking.
All I can tell is my experience: After 15 years, I switched from economy to alternate picking. It was the best thing I ever made. My sound is cleaner, stronger, I play more on time, and I finally play faster. This is just my experience, nothing more. It took around 2 years for me to fully adapt.
@@Andybaby, guitar players like Jason Richardson, John Petrucci, Roberto Barros, and Kiko Loureiro are all alternate picking players and they play stuff way faster than I Am A Viking. Use the metronome, relax, and emphasize the note that plays with the metronome (play it a little stronger to mark the time). And play slow. That's the secret.
@@Andybaby I’m trying but it’s a slow process,, alternate picking is the hardest technique in the guitar ,,, I’m currently playing semi quavers relaxed at 140 bpm. It’s an everyday process you need to do for years
I favour economy/inside picking because for me it's natural and doesn't take any thought. You can always escape with either a sweep or an inside pick movement. For me it just feels natural because it involves the least amount of movement.
The thing that works for me is a combo of alternate and sweeps. What really got the alternate picking down for me was picking trills and trying to do "picking trills" on a string change. The combination happened because i liked Marty Friedman/Jason Becker. So the pick direction started to not matter anymore. The alternate picking would allow me to escape into the sweep/economy picking
Kinda reminds me of directional picking. It's a little different than economy. Directional picking you always sweep to the next string and how ever it works out it works out. Not always as efficient as economy picking but close to the same. I like to use a combination of everything personally.
if anyone reads this then dont be afraid to use both coz it will keep the improv interesting by keeping different techniques, I mean who like listening to the same thing over and over during a solo anyway
Troy……….. That intro lick….VERY cool! But as a long-time alternate picker, my hand has a tendency to resist when attempting economy picking. Any tips how to get past that? I also agree regarding having both techniques (at least) under your belt.
troy: you should talk more about people who don't pick that much and are among the greatest improvisers: metheny, scofield, holdsworth, quayle, greg howe, ben eunson, tim miller, etc...
So you can’t just ‘pick’ one? It depends! Wow Troy I’ve followed you over some time and I think you are playing better and smoother on some of those super riffs. Nice!
I try to practice both, that way I can develop "convenient picking" and be able to play either Paul Gilbert or Eric Johnson without thinking.....if it's possible....
Ah the great debate! Alternate vs economy.... (what about directional picking. It's kinda economy picking) Caged vs 3nps... I personally like a healthy balance of everything.
When you economy pick, does your index knuckle hit the strings? I have always used a flat finger grip, (sort of like Morse but gripping Index instead of Middle) when I alternate pick. I have been trying to get used to economy picking, with a curled index like yours (I realized my normal grip doesn't work for economy picking), for perhaps 15 years. Just can't stop hitting the string with my index when I do, and it drives me crazy. Your ability to use all grips, and multiple approaches is amazing. I have been a decent alternate picker since I was a teen, but economy gives me a hell of a time. I see people always talking about how much easier Economy is, but my hands hate it.
Really depends on the types of motions you're using and which kind of economy. For Gypsy, which is ownly downstroke sweeping, I use a pretty typical grip and I don't get any knuckle contact. Most of Gambale's stuff is upstroke sweeping and you're very unlikely to scrape with any style of pick grip there. It's basically reverse of Gypsy, just with wrist motion intead of wrist-forearm. So the arm position is different. Lots of ways to do this, but I encourage thinking of the two "one-way economy" styles separately first, since those teach you how to combine alternate and sweep, even for lines which are more alternate than sweep. Once you have those, you can choose to connect them if you wish, but even great two-way sweepers like Frank spend more time in one mechanical mode than the other.
@@troygrady Thanks for the response. It's been slow going trying to figure it out, basically it works if I want to do a straight up or down sequence (Like Gambale's pentatonic 313 type pattern, or 3nps scale stuff), but after a while I start knicking my index knuckle. I think I might switch to a bigger pick, and not grip so close to the tip. On another note, armwrestling vernacular has helped me understand a lot of this stuff a lot better, and I was surprised how much of it carries over to picking technique discussion and analysis. Pro armwrestlers (such as Devon Larratt) have the training of pronation, supination, deviation, and wrist flexion down to a science.
Thanks for this Troy, I kind picked up on the playing while talking thing too, but you're aware of it and that's what makes you really cool. I saw another very good player kind of hint about Cracking the Code in an interview recently with someone else I greatly respect as a teacher and they were pushing the economy picking is king, or there is no such thing as pick slanting thing almost like they were taking a jab at you and your work. I didn't appreciate that very much because I see how open to everything you are and that's the way to really be great. They are all techniques to learn and add to your "bag of tricks" or as you say words and phrases to add to your vocabulary. It's better to be an open door than a closed one and there is no "one technique to rule them all" imo.
With Cracking the Code we're not trying to tell you what to do, we're just saying, ok, these techniques exist, here's how they work. If someone wants to get defensive about that, I don't know what to tell you. It's like blaming the weather man for the rain!
People get pathologically married to their ideas on these things, for some reason. It's intimidating to accommodate new info or change your mind about things when you've been doing something a certain way for a long time and it generally works.
We teach all the techniques we know about in our core instructional products like the Pickslanting Primer, and also in our EJ / Yngwie seminars. On top of that, you can also check out our interview with Frank Gambale where you can see up close what he's doing - it's a rare privilege. He plays a ton of awesome stuff it's all tabbed out in slow motion.
Hey Troy, if I'm a DSX player I can't play the Eric Johnson's 5 note pattern? I came up with up down, up down and hammer from nowhere and it seems to work. I tried to play with a USX motion and it's pretty awkward to play the pattern and if I try to play it fast right away it's start to fall apart.
This is an incredible talk Troy! I wanted to ask you something about choosing picking techniques: I’ve noticed with a standard sized-pointy pick I find it easier to play with DSX motion and with Jazz III XL for some reason it’s easier for me to play with a downward pickslant. I remember your recent video on choosing picks and this made me think about how a different pick can change what I thought as an unchangeable part of my technique. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Going to throw my 2 cents worth in to the conversation. From what I can see, the typle of picking is heavily influenced by the type of music you are wanting to play. For instance i don't think Ive ever seen an accoustiv Bluegrass player using the economy method, it just wouldn't sound right. Also fomr what I can see is economy pickers rely on distortion/sustain to acheive the fluid nammer-ons and pull-offs which lends it self to specific genres and much harder to achieve with clean tones.
Lol playing all day long is probably the biggest factor in picking like this. It does help to analyze the biomechanics, up stroke vs down, correcting bad technique, blah blah blah but it all comes back to putting in the work. Dumping a wife and collecting unemployment can facilitate.
I always use alternate picking for everything not because it's superior or smth but in order for me not to scramble about switching picking styles. Other than that, I am also trying to learn picados though this is for flamenco.
Thanks to Pádraig O'Kane @ Streetwise Guitar for doing this! Catch the full conversation right here ( ua-cam.com/video/cfr8z_swDWE/v-deo.html ) and subscribe to his channel for other great interviews and lessons.
the greatest alternate picker is Michael Paouris here hear c 4 yourself ua-cam.com/video/X4rHTpBp9-U/v-deo.html
I think Don Mock plays Arpeggios with strict alternate picking instead of sweeping. You might wanna check him out for analysis.
Your so good dude!!! Nastyyyyy🔥🔥🔥
This is the funny thing about guitar players. No matter how good you are at one thing you always want to do the thing you can't do and even when you achieve it, it doesn't feel that cool anymore and then you find something else you can't do and you are in this permanent state of "why can't I play that? I suck"
Ha so true. I live with a violinist, and they also have it pretty bad. Insecurity complex is practically institutionalized with them.
@@troygrady dude, I swear when I started guitar my mission was to play the solo in master of puppets. Now I can do the gilbert licks, Johnson pentatonics, some of Yngwie's licks, EVH... I'm way better than what I wanted to be initially and I still hate myself every time after I watch Anton Oparin play!! Haha
@@MrMetalhorse Stop trying to satisfy your ego which tells you that you are not good enough (you cannot do it). Instead, get the original musical ideas that are already inside you out.
I doubt that James Hetfield is really THAT much better than you. Be honest. You don't really suck.
Your ego is a liar. Show it who is boss.
@@StratMatt777 You speak right to my heart man. Thanks
@@iganpparamarta8813 Cool! I am glad to hear that.
I've been playing since 1998 and still feel like I "should" learn arpeggios. But why do I NEED to do that? To be as good as ______ somebody? I don't even know.
I can play anything I feel and get any music I dream up out of my head through the guitar.
I alternate pick every single note I play (I think?).
I learned from this channel that I have my pick angled at a 40 degree angle (I forget the term- "pickslant"?) and I have the tip not pointed directly at the strings- it's rotated a little to the side so i just kind of glance off the string without digging deep in.
That's the technique that works for me anyway.
And I cannot play any of that stuff that you listed... Yngwie, Gilbert, etc...
For an example of "not being good enough", my mother quit playing accordion 30+ years ago because she thought she was "faking it" because she couldn't read music- she was just making it sound right.
So, she was a natural, but thought she was a fake because she couldn't read the notes on the paper.
So she quit. 30 years ago. Stupid ego!
I think it is usually our parents who teach us that we are not ever good enough and need to try harder to try to become good enough.
The things we learn and observe up through age 7 are actually imprinted in our brains and become what we really believe- and act like a filter we view the world (and ourselves) through.
Rock on!
I had a great time doing this interview!!!! Thanks, Troy!
Right on and thanks for having me!
Outstanding analysis. It's clear Troy has totally assimilated all his investigations and analyses on a very wide but deep level. I really do feel Troy has fundamentally altered our knowledge of guitar plectrum technique like no-one else in history. I am so in awe of your effort and achievement and I thank you.
Which is scary and goal setting at the same time. You can tell his videos aren't just for us. He shows the technique of the great master pickers while being one himself.
Troy's speaking as fast as he picks, that must be economy breathing 😂 but seriously thanks for all the things you've done to clarify the picking myth, as a violinist moving on to guitar the way you explain things makes a lot of sense. Probably the best if not the only. 👍
If we were to apply the standards of a "single picking technique" like economy or alternate picking to the fretting hand, the limitations of that strategy would immediately become obvious. Certain fretting/fingerings work significantly better on specific patterns. To deny that would force you to use "bad" fingerings, and the results would reflect that. The same is true for picking. I think it is best to learn a variety of picking patterns, and understand where they work best and why. Thanks
"Thinking of picking techniques like a language"
Holy crap, I'm a cave man that can only grunt and yell.
All downstrokes is a great language too!
@@troygrady LOL
@@troygrady haha James hetfield has entered the chat 😂
That’s funny!!!
I've been blown away by the Troy stuff. This video is no exception - really makes you think.
To enable full improvisation freedom, I practice patterns using the following:
1. Alternate picking, starting with downstroke
2. Economy picking starting with downstroke
3. Alternate picking, starting with upstroke
4. Economy picking starting with upstroke
I'll usually spend 2 days on alternate picking and 1 day on economy (day 3). I aim for max speed on day 3, the economy picking day, and I'm always sold on the idea that economy is faster.
But I think of economy picking as a chef using a microwave - you get your warm, ready to eat food but you don't get the satisfaction of cooking the meal (given by alternate picking).
This was a great interview and talk! I watched the whole thing and I really enjoyed it! You are so right...every picking style has it's own rules and note setup and they all can work to improvise and play great music and no one style of picking is better than the other. Great to hear you talk about this stuff! :)
Well that's easy for you to say, you do them all!
@@troygrady 😃
Some time ago I made a conscious effort to switch to full economy picking. The thinking was that from a pure physics point of view, it was much faster to use whatever stroke was closest to the string you were moving to than to jump over the approach string and then come in behind it (so to speak) in order to keep the rigorous up/down/up/down pattern of strict alternate picking. In essence this means there's a lot more "sweeping" going on but it greatly opened up what I was able to play much faster because there is less "distance" I need to travel when switching strings. Then I simply practice different odd/even note combinations when switching over two strings to get it into my DNA and this made it so much easier, at least for me. I can blaze through the 5-note EJ pentatonic pattern demonstrated here by Troy but fully using economy picking to do so. It was a real revelation for me after always getting stuck not being able to play faster passages as a strict alternate picker previously
I think that alternate picking can be defined as a subset of economy picking if you want to define alternate picking as a specific style. The problem is that I don't think economy picking is a rigidly defined style, it is more fuzzy. That being said, I think the important takeaway here is that economy picking means that you are primarily focusing on the notes you are playing, how you pick is determined by the situation and your specific style. The way economy picking gives you more freedom is that you aren't locked into a certain style, you can sweep pick, alternate pick, or do whatever you think makes the most sense in that particular situation. I think the main problem with alternate picking is that it is often taught as a method for fixing the issue of only doing down picks or up picks. There is no denying that it is better to pick in both directions at different times but the issue is saying that every second pick should be in the opposite direction. I also believe that pure alternate picking can help with timing in a sense but it also works to restrict your timing options just as much.
Troy...this was a great interview to watch...I hope you consider doing more...you have a ton of insight to offer!!...rock on my brother!!!
This was so enjoyable, thank you
Economy 4 life!
It took my brain some time to rewire from years of alternate picking to economy picking, and there was a point in the middle where I couldn't do any of them at all, but now I feel like I have a freedom on the fretboard I never had before. I'm not even talking about speed, just the ability to easily change string no matter the direction of my last picking changed my approach to melody too.
Troy, you are a MONSTER player in your own right! Amazing technique!
Troy, thank you for bringing the rigor of scientific analysis to the guitar community. You are fantastic at combining art and science, and that’s what music is, at the end of the day. Well done!
Fantastic!!! Kinch is a fantastic guitarist in his own right, but also a great interviewer! Can't wait to see this!
If you want a sound like alternate picking at any random position and the solution is bouncing techniques, make sure every odd numbers are downstroke.
german here: we have 4 cases
also you're right except for some certain products like ketchup, nutella and cola which are regionally different masculine/feminine or neuter, we don't think about those things.
I know I screwed that up! But yes if you have to remember den tisch vs. dem tisch vs. des tisches it's not a pain in the ass?
@@troygrady no, not at all. in hochdeutsch it's pretty clear an hardly anyone has a problem with it. immigrants and people who grew up in rural areas where there's mostly speakers with thick dialects it might be different, but for the vast majority of native speakers they don't think about this, they just speak it.
to get back to the subject of guitar: after 15years of playing i decided to take lessons. my teacher showed me one of those paul gilbert style speed excercises. when i sttempted it at first, i got pretty fast, but my teacher said i was pickkng it weirdly. i didn't even think about how i picked it, i just did. i was almost as fast as him at the peak, but when i tried his picking pattern (starting with an upstroke on the higher string and then downstroke, upstroke, downstroke on the lower) it totally threw me off and i couldn't even play it right when playing way slower. when i conciously had to think about my right hand motions, i had trouble with an otherwise quite playable passage.
EIERSCHALENSOLLBRUCHSTELLENVERURSACHER DAS COCA COLA!!!
Troy's content is just too good. When Cascade came out 5 or 6 years ago, I just couldn't believe that there was content that good out there. And his platform has only gotten better and better. A little side benefit was that he introduced us all to the merits of the Gibson Nighthawk. Rock star.
It´s so obvious that the smarter way is learning both techniques as good as you can, and one thing you will learn by doing that is the better you get at one usually makes you better at the other. My economy started to sound a lot more accurate when I saw Troy´s videos and worked on my alternate using his approaches.
I totally agree with you. Economy picking is a bunch of words.
I'm nearly 8 minutes in and the other dude hasn't had a chance but to say 2 words! LOLOLOL Edit.....I finished the video and the guy didn't say anything but "uh huh"......I'm hoping there's more to this conversation .BTW, I love Troy's content.
I believe Troy was the guest - full video is on Streetwise’s channel.
@@456or7strings Ahhhhh, well that makes more sense. Thanks! I was feeling bad for the dude as Troy did all the talking here. LOL
Yes, sorry I was being "interviewed", so this is me in "explain the technical stuff" mode, which seemed to be what was Pádraig was looking for here. Still, lesson learned - I've made the mental note to cut the answers shorter and make sure I'm not going off on long-winded tangents.
@@troygrady I think in the full context (of you being interviewee rather than interviewer), it is not a valid criticism. ...and some of us enjoy long-winded tangents! No need to change your style or content, imo.
@@troygrady Ahhhhh no worries Troy!!! Like thousands of others, your info/channel has transformed my playing!!! And it now makes sense that YOU were the one being interviewed!
You're the biggest scientist guitar ever had through the last decades, thanks for sharing your knowledge! 🙏
I needed this video. Thanks Troy!
i do a semi-alternate-economy picking thing where I would prioritize sweeping string changes whenever possible but when a sequence requires alternate picking I just do that. Also in contexts where sweeping is possible but alternate picking is favourable
As an economy picker, this was great to hear. I regret nothing! Id rather just keep working in economy picking than try and get good at alternative.
first person who has truly spoken my mind here. And yes my technique is perhaps 80% alternate 20% economy picked...
Great interview Troy and Padraig! Enjoyed the full length quite a bit.
So Im an escape picker.Thx doc.Amazing infos.
Some amazing information here 👏
5:02 Totally agree. Maintenance is much easier than alternate picking. And I benefited from it after starting learning bass and learning the double thumbing technique. The hand movements translate very well.
This is great. I talk about this with all my guitar need friends in nyc. How we don’t like rules when we play improv but we all use them without knowing
It’s an interesting question to ask who is really the most “improvisational” player and how would you measure that? Which technique(s) would those players tend to use? All I know is I’m excellent at being boring with all techniques!
@@troygrady Never stop being boring, Troy. A boring Troy is the guitar teacher we need&deserve.
If you love down-picking on the lower strings then you should try up-picking on the higher strings, and learn how to up-pick on the down beat. The motion is like pulling, and the attack looks like a chicken pecking.
Man, this content is great! Can't wait to hop into the Cacking the Code train!
During the interview, you mentioned these techniques taking you to different creative places. Do you write any music? You are by far the most knowledgeable player I've ever seen, and I'd love to see you put this knowledge to a good use. I bet you must be able to write some cool music.
Also, thanks a lot for putting a huge ammount of content for free on UA-cam. This is the biggest revolution in guitar teaching ever. You rule!
Our primary focus is teaching. However all the soundtrack in our lessons is original stuff - like the song at the intro to this video from a while back: ua-cam.com/video/39eiJhkzm2o/v-deo.html
oh man i so wish this information was available to me when i was 15-16..would have saved so much time figuring all of this out, mostly by myself...anyways so glad we have this knowledge out now, thank you Troy!
Love your work!
great and informative as always. thanks troy
I'm not really sure I agree with this, and I'd like someone else to clarify if I'm wrong but... as far as I understand, alternate and economy picking aren't the only two ways to play using the pick only. There's also directional picking. Directional picking is different compared to economy picking because in economy picking you layout a picking sequence on a specific pattern to minimize motion, but in directional picking the only thing you're concerned about is whether the next note is on a higher string, a lower string, or the same string.. without worrying about what direction you're coming from. I.e you end a note on an upstroke and have to play a note on the string above it, you just sweep to the next one. If you have to play a note on the string above and you come from a downstroke, then you alternate pick it and skip the string you just played the note on.
I do this, and although I'm not a virtuoso I've been able to get pretty decent at doing it to the point I think I would be able to get as fast as it's practical for a player using the same technique. On the same string you just alternate, then on a different string you either sweep towards it if the motion is already headed towards it or you skip the current string and continue the alternate motion towards the next one. And this is by just purely picking.. if you use legato you don't even have to skip it it's all about whether you want the machine gun string attack sound on the note or not. It's stylistic not a limitation.
I completely understand that what you are describing doesn't *feel* memorized to you. That's my point in this conversation. Everybody who gets good at a particular picking style, whatever it is, gets good enough where it feels like they're "just playing", and not just chaining together smaller units of motion they already know. They feel free, just as we do when speaking our nativel language. However, just as language has grammar and rules, so do motions, and the filming we have done supports this. We have interviewed exceptional players like Frank Gambale, Oz Noy, and Jimmy Bruno, and filmed their hands from a few inches away. Their styles are exactly what you're describing in terms of mixing alternate and sweep string changes, and yet, they don't all mix uniformly or get good at the same motions. Their mechanical vocabularies are all different, like fingerprints. There are some patterns you never see Frank make that Oz uses all the time, and vice versa. This is true of them, and of everyone else.
I hope the other guy at least got to say "hello" :'D
lmao
I thought i couldnt play certain things because i didnt practice enough not because i economy pick wow this was eye opening and explained why i cannot play certain phrases
This makes perfect sense. The goal of 'play anything, at any time, perfect accuracy" is a fallacy. It should not be the goal of any guitar player, and the younger you are when you learn this, the better. The music comes first, and the proficiency for your style is what should become the lifetime goal. Spending decades practicing to become perfect, somehow, is foolishness. Find out what works for you amd practice the best way to do that using these principles.
This is so good. I feel like this is exactly my thoughts finally put in to words.
Great point from the masterful POV.
I feel like Troy needs a hug today. 🤗 😂
When will you break down Josh Meader's picking
👍👍👍 thanks Troy. I'm going to practice now 😁😁
Sir can you talk about minimal movements of picking and fretting hand.Also is to avoid fatigue when playing faster like hand positioning etc thank you
I don’t really make minimal movements. I think the simplest advice is that correct technique usually feels easy. If it doesn’t feel easy, even when going fast, you might just be doing it wrong. If so, try changing something about your form.
@@troygrady thank you very much sir
Excellent instructional. Thanks :)
I spent 10 years forcing myself to play in alternate picking without ever succeeding in crossing the 120 bpm, 9 years ago instinctively I developed a technique which I did not know the name of at the time and which is called economy picking. Unfortunately, I wanted to force myself on alternate picking and I still can't pass 120 bpm in alternate, I reached 200 bpm in a month without difficulty in economy. I think I'll concentrate on what is the most instinctive for me, so economy picking
@@noneavailable5515 I tried pickslanting stuff for a year or so, that's really feel weird to my brain, economy is fluid to my brain, i d'ont really know what my right hand is doing, feels like a blackout moment. Alternate is so hard for me.
Problem is changing technic take so much time, you can"t change every month. but i think that economy is my thing, as i said, i discovered it, by that time i was struggling with string hopping, my brain figured to bypass it with economy, i was lightning fast with it.
I just realized I’ve never once alternate picked correctly when I thought it was alternative picking I’ve been economy picking this whole time without knowing what it was.
Anton Oparin plays every lick in the world with alternate picking and it's always perfectly clean
Yes but he is like one in one billion. The only other player on earth I've ever heard who can pick like that is Roy Marchbank. For everyone else economy picking is so much more achievable.
I started using economy picking when I learned Eric Johnson songs
I used to do economy picking naturally and was really good at it until a friend told me I need to do alternate picking only or I will be hurting my playing in the future. so, trying to learn alternate only, I ruined my technique. I hate alternate picking.
Absolute genius....(sorry) - But Troy's analytic/articulation is epic - Thank you
All I can tell is my experience: After 15 years, I switched from economy to alternate picking. It was the best thing I ever made. My sound is cleaner, stronger, I play more on time, and I finally play faster. This is just my experience, nothing more. It took around 2 years for me to fully adapt.
Can you alternate pick the (ascending run) intro to the "I am a viking" solo? I couldn't, which is why I'm practising economy)
@@Andybaby, guitar players like Jason Richardson, John Petrucci, Roberto Barros, and Kiko Loureiro are all alternate picking players and they play stuff way faster than I Am A Viking. Use the metronome, relax, and emphasize the note that plays with the metronome (play it a little stronger to mark the time). And play slow. That's the secret.
@@jeandannemann I tried man, for years ( focussed, slow, metronome practice) ... didn't come close. Are you familiar w the run I'm talking about?
@@Andybaby I’m trying but it’s a slow process,, alternate picking is the hardest technique in the guitar ,,, I’m currently playing semi quavers relaxed at 140 bpm. It’s an everyday process you need to do for years
It's a really good way but then you have everybody doing it that way then . But it's awesome that he really analyzed it down And good to here
Troy. You should interview Josh Meader and Ben Eunson. Their techniques seem to be a different class of hybrid picking.
I favour economy/inside picking because for me it's natural and doesn't take any thought. You can always escape with either a sweep or an inside pick movement. For me it just feels natural because it involves the least amount of movement.
I agree that if you spend so much time and energy into obsessing on how you are picking, it takes time away from creativity.
I think one shouldn't limit him/herself in only one way of playing but instead pursue freedom playing what the situation calls for..
How many times a year does Troy Grady have to replace a volume pot?
Great segment as always. Would love to see a video on Jimmy Page economy picking. Something I think that is integral to his style and licks
The thing that works for me is a combo of alternate and sweeps. What really got the alternate picking down for me was picking trills and trying to do "picking trills" on a string change. The combination happened because i liked Marty Friedman/Jason Becker. So the pick direction started to not matter anymore. The alternate picking would allow me to escape into the sweep/economy picking
Kinda reminds me of directional picking. It's a little different than economy. Directional picking you always sweep to the next string and how ever it works out it works out. Not always as efficient as economy picking but close to the same. I like to use a combination of everything personally.
Is economy picking the same thing as Tom Hess teaching what he calls directional picking?
now I'm proud to be an economy picker 😃
let's add a comment here on how do you play The Final Countdown solo on the arpeggios part, Economy or Alternate?
help with inside picking
if anyone reads this then dont be afraid to use both coz it will keep the improv interesting by keeping different techniques, I mean who like listening to the same thing over and over during a solo anyway
Troy………..
That intro lick….VERY cool!
But as a long-time alternate picker, my hand has a tendency to resist when attempting economy picking.
Any tips how to get past that?
I also agree regarding having both techniques (at least) under your belt.
Awesome 💯
Picking technic...I like em all !!
Wow, I guess use both that’s a great improviser!
I use upstroke escape when going from lower to higher strings but sownstroke escape when going from higher strings to lower. Anyone like me?
troy: you should talk more about people who don't pick that much and are among the greatest improvisers: metheny, scofield, holdsworth, quayle, greg howe, ben eunson, tim miller, etc...
Scott Henderson.
So you can’t just ‘pick’ one? It depends! Wow Troy I’ve followed you over some time and I think you are playing better and smoother on some of those super riffs. Nice!
I try to practice both, that way I can develop "convenient picking" and be able to play either Paul Gilbert or Eric Johnson without thinking.....if it's possible....
Sure. It's a little like speaking different languages. You may not switch in the middle of a phrase, but you might switch from one phrase to another.
Ah the great debate! Alternate vs economy.... (what about directional picking. It's kinda economy picking)
Caged vs 3nps...
I personally like a healthy balance of everything.
When you economy pick, does your index knuckle hit the strings? I have always used a flat finger grip, (sort of like Morse but gripping Index instead of Middle) when I alternate pick. I have been trying to get used to economy picking, with a curled index like yours (I realized my normal grip doesn't work for economy picking), for perhaps 15 years. Just can't stop hitting the string with my index when I do, and it drives me crazy.
Your ability to use all grips, and multiple approaches is amazing. I have been a decent alternate picker since I was a teen, but economy gives me a hell of a time. I see people always talking about how much easier Economy is, but my hands hate it.
Really depends on the types of motions you're using and which kind of economy. For Gypsy, which is ownly downstroke sweeping, I use a pretty typical grip and I don't get any knuckle contact. Most of Gambale's stuff is upstroke sweeping and you're very unlikely to scrape with any style of pick grip there. It's basically reverse of Gypsy, just with wrist motion intead of wrist-forearm. So the arm position is different. Lots of ways to do this, but I encourage thinking of the two "one-way economy" styles separately first, since those teach you how to combine alternate and sweep, even for lines which are more alternate than sweep. Once you have those, you can choose to connect them if you wish, but even great two-way sweepers like Frank spend more time in one mechanical mode than the other.
@@troygrady Thanks for the response. It's been slow going trying to figure it out, basically it works if I want to do a straight up or down sequence (Like Gambale's pentatonic 313 type pattern, or 3nps scale stuff), but after a while I start knicking my index knuckle. I think I might switch to a bigger pick, and not grip so close to the tip.
On another note, armwrestling vernacular has helped me understand a lot of this stuff a lot better, and I was surprised how much of it carries over to picking technique discussion and analysis. Pro armwrestlers (such as Devon Larratt) have the training of pronation, supination, deviation, and wrist flexion down to a science.
Thanks for this Troy, I kind picked up on the playing while talking thing too, but you're aware of it and that's what makes you really cool. I saw another very good player kind of hint about Cracking the Code in an interview recently with someone else I greatly respect as a teacher and they were pushing the economy picking is king, or there is no such thing as pick slanting thing almost like they were taking a jab at you and your work. I didn't appreciate that very much because I see how open to everything you are and that's the way to really be great. They are all techniques to learn and add to your "bag of tricks" or as you say words and phrases to add to your vocabulary. It's better to be an open door than a closed one and there is no "one technique to rule them all" imo.
With Cracking the Code we're not trying to tell you what to do, we're just saying, ok, these techniques exist, here's how they work. If someone wants to get defensive about that, I don't know what to tell you. It's like blaming the weather man for the rain!
People get pathologically married to their ideas on these things, for some reason. It's intimidating to accommodate new info or change your mind about things when you've been doing something a certain way for a long time and it generally works.
Do you have a lesson pack on economy picking in your website?
We teach all the techniques we know about in our core instructional products like the Pickslanting Primer, and also in our EJ / Yngwie seminars. On top of that, you can also check out our interview with Frank Gambale where you can see up close what he's doing - it's a rare privilege. He plays a ton of awesome stuff it's all tabbed out in slow motion.
Hey Troy, if I'm a DSX player I can't play the Eric Johnson's 5 note pattern? I came up with up down, up down and hammer from nowhere and it seems to work. I tried to play with a USX motion and it's pretty awkward to play the pattern and if I try to play it fast right away it's start to fall apart.
Would love to see a video on Vinnie Vincent
His instructional sounded sloppy but it was actually very clean
This is an incredible talk Troy! I wanted to ask you something about choosing picking techniques: I’ve noticed with a standard sized-pointy pick I find it easier to play with DSX motion and with Jazz III XL for some reason it’s easier for me to play with a downward pickslant. I remember your recent video on choosing picks and this made me think about how a different pick can change what I thought as an unchangeable part of my technique. Do you have any thoughts on this?
What's your preferred style, Troy?
As many as I can learn!
About the german part, he is absolutely correct.
You could easily use a photo of the guy in the right side of the screen and the video would have the same impact.
Troy but it would be also nice to hear what the guy on the right side had to say or offer you spoke he heard you out 😂
I’ve always just economy picked automatically.
Going to throw my 2 cents worth in to the conversation. From what I can see, the typle of picking is heavily influenced by the type of music you are wanting to play. For instance i don't think Ive ever seen an accoustiv Bluegrass player using the economy method, it just wouldn't sound right. Also fomr what I can see is economy pickers rely on distortion/sustain to acheive the fluid nammer-ons and pull-offs which lends it self to specific genres and much harder to achieve with clean tones.
Troy is like a mix of Ben Shapiro and yngwie malmsteen
As a person with a BA in linguistics and a guitarist this hits home for me!!!
Damn it I suddenly need to stop everything and pick up my Guit-Fiddle and PRACTICE... 40 hour a day!
Wish that website could get you playing like that instead of just showing it off
Troy Grady changed the way I play guitar. I actually can’t thank him enough
I'm the guy who has no idea if he's alternate or economy picking because It changes
With alternate picking you can go up and down at will. You gotta check out my guitar playing.
Waiting for Martin Miller chime
Martin is the best.
Welcome to the ‘Speedball’ picking technique. Now where’s that extra Adderall I had laying around…
Lol playing all day long is probably the biggest factor in picking like this. It does help to analyze the biomechanics, up stroke vs down, correcting bad technique, blah blah blah but it all comes back to putting in the work. Dumping a wife and collecting unemployment can facilitate.
I always use alternate picking for everything not because it's superior or smth but in order for me not to scramble about switching picking styles.
Other than that, I am also trying to learn picados though this is for flamenco.