No Wrist Speed? No Problem: Secrets Of Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- This lesson on "dart thrower" wrist motion is the culmination of years of work by the Cracking the Code team. If you want to go even further, you can find the more detailed, step-by-step tutorial for this technique in our instructional material here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-t...
I don't have special genetics for fast picking. I was never unusually good at video games or sports requiring elite hand-eye coordination. And I couldn't play at these tempos until I figured out the concepts and techniques you'll learn in this lesson. In fact, my primary skill is being NOT GOOD at stuff, but realizing there's usually a trick to it that can be figured out with critical thinking and enough trial and error.
0:00 Riffs From 170 BPM To 270 BPM
2:33 Reaching Hyperspeed
3:21 What is Dart Thrower Wrist Motion?
9:37 Ergonomic Mouse Form
11:39 Tall Ergonomic Mouse Form
13:11 Middle Finger & Trailing Edge Pick Grips
14:13 Downpicking and Uppicking
15:31 Alternate Picking
17:50 Setting The Forearm Position
19:37 Reverse Dart And Escape Motion
21:20 Motion "Size"
23:30 Training For Speed
24:31 Get Personalized Feedback On Your Playing
I'm already blasting the f*ck out my guitar after watching this. It is unbelievable! You are a genius, Troy. Thank you so much for everything!
Put up some clips, we love seeing results!
@@troygrady just uploaded a video: ua-cam.com/video/-5t-zr2eeVo/v-deo.html. The upstrokes are crazy already!
Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( ua-cam.com/video/-5t-zr2eeVo/v-deo.html ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!
@@troygrady omg. I'm honored. Feel free to share and cut ❤
@@troygrady New video: ua-cam.com/video/6P08NXPR7Ug/v-deo.html definitely got faster on the higher strings, but i don't know if i am doing it right.
I'm a mechanical engineer and a guitar player. I find this forensic approach to guitar techniques so AWESOME! I really appreciate the work that must go into these. ❤
Nice! That's a skill set I'd like to have. What do you work on?
prob just 🧢ing lmao
@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.
I wish I'd have seen this 35 years ago. Thanks for all your hard work making this, Troy Grady! You're Awesome!
Me too! Better late than never I guess.
Exemplary work as usual, Troy. Thanks so much for giving props to Chuck Schuldiner! I played with Chuck in Death and it was a great honor to do so. Nice to see him getting recognition here for his blazing picking technique.
I tend to think of the reverse dart thrower motion as the same as using a salt or pepper shaker. Please correct me if I'm wrong haha.Cheers \m/
I'm going right back to your Symbolic Solos video after I get this technique down.
Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.
Oh my god it's the Bobby Koelble! I loved your solos on symbolic :)
I am astounded by how much we still have to learn about technique, efficiency, the human body, Etc.
Same!
Thanks for sharing this Troy! All you do is amazing and changing players lives!
Troy,I can't express how my playing (20 years deep before I discovered you) has improved,love you man ❤
love your analytics. i can play some smooth phrases with instinct, and doubble escape, but some other´s are always got a extramove that slowes all down. i think u nailed it, again! thx
So u could actually write a dissertation on this one and become a phd in guitar 💪🏽 this is pure science
We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.
@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player
Looks like a breakthrough for me. Definitely going to exercise this!
Amazing stuff, Troy! I have heard people talk about reverse dart throwing motions in the forum but I never really knew what they were talking about and now I do! This video is so well done! Incredible playing also. Great job! 🙂🤘
The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/
Amazing thing. I've been doing the reverse Dart thrower picking with a typical pick grip forever. My thumb doesn't bend backwards so I've adapted. At first I couldn't figure out why both motions where the same speed with your way and mine.After filming my hand and comparing, It's because I've always done it. Cheers for putting a name to the technique.
I've dealt with chronic muscle tension due to PTSD for all of my adult life. The work you do in the science of guitar playing is greatly appreciated.
Troy, absolutely love these and all the work you put into them.
you're amazing for making this. thank you!
Man, I can't even tell you how much this helped me. Finally, for the first time in several years, that awkward passion for learning guitar appeared again. Can't believe this information is free, you obviously deserve much more views. And also I definitely can see how you honestly want to share your team's discoveries with people, it really warms the soul XD.
Awkward passion for the win!
Unbelievable ! Thanks Troy and crew!
Please! Never stop doing what you do Troy!!
I'm unemployable in the accounting department with my current skill set so you're in luck!
To say this video has just made my day is an absolute understatement! I have no words right now... Just have to say "thank you, Troy!"
Cool!
huh, I was doing reverse dart the entire time and didn't even realize it...that's awesome. Its always what was more comfortable for me over the past 33 years. Excellent video as always!
This channel is incredible!! Thank you Troy!
Okay, I'm ready for the version for drummers now too (my first musical passion)!
This was amazing!
It should be mandatory viewing for anyone trying to play fast!
I also noticed the grip is very different from what I've seen recommended for fast playing in other videos.
Gonna have to try it all!
Also, as a physicist, I love the scientific approach to understanding the ergonomics.
I'm sure anyone with a science background will agree.
This is simply the best demonstration of this ever!
Cheers, and THANK YOU!
Troy can you please do the video from the players perspective ie view of hand but from the players eye? It's great to see the string axis and rotation at string height but it doesn't really relate to the players view. We need to see the action as you would looking at our strings with the guitar on our body. I really think this would help more.
Right and with both pick grips. I’m so lost on this subject after watching it like 5 times I still don’t get it
Definitely, I am so lost lmao
Thanks Troy! This makes absolutely sense. With this dart throwing motion it’s easier to play faster and cleaner.
hands down best channel! thanks Troy.
The best instruction on this topic! I like the scientific approach so much!
You're such an asset to the guitar community, Troy.
This confirms something I have suspected for a while, I notice way less tension when I do the 3 finger grip. I actually do it with 2 fingers but my index finger is in the same position (slightly more centered on the pick) as it would be in the 3 finger version, kinda pointing at the guitar, not curled up.
After watching your video here I noticed the method I described also allows for that slight forearm rotation.
Sounds plausible! You are correct that the key is the wrist motion, and the arm position and grip simply enable that.
Awesome you included Archspire!! Dean Lamb is one of the main guys that comes to mind for me reverse dart throwing. He’s the only reason I’ve tried to switch to it, no luck yet, but still trying.
Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.
Troy is responsible for me being able to throw down on guitar...Cant tell you what these lessons have done for not only kickass playing,but you're also helping people's self esteem...🤘
This one was revelatory! Thanks for the work you do!
WOW! This is amazing! Thank you for posting! We love all your videos
This is truly fantastic. I'm a similar age to Troy, and while I've been unavoidably away from playing the guitar for a couple of years, I've just seen the light after literally decades of frustration from having tried to ape Al Di Meola's playing with a flat wrist and side-to-side action (which I think he even described in his playing techniques book which I bought when I was maybe 15). Just changing that axis while tapping against my laptop, with the arm twisted (rather than flat) shows that this is a huge breakthrough. Fantastic stuff from Cracking the Code, and when I eventually get back to playing the guitar (in 6 months or so), I'm looking forward to putting this into practice. 👍
Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.
Hope you get your parole.
@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on UA-cam.
Thanks for teaching and codifying these techniques. It somewhat explains how I pick single note lines. You mention that when using the easy motion, one picks straight into the guitar. But rather than rotate the forearm clockwise as you do, I rotate the arm counter-clockwise, so the pick points downwards, getting the pick as parallel as I can comfortably get with the fretboard. I hold the pick in a standard thumb and index manner and use a door-knocking motion to pick with short strokes. In my mind, I feel like I am picking towards and away from the fretboard. This also allows me to alternate pick one note per string arpeggios and two notes per string as fast as I can tremolo pick.
There is a Shawn Lane video where he describes what I think is similar. He says that his pick is almost sideways, and his hand appears to be doing the dart-thrower motion.
I am by no means an accomplished guitarist, as I only noodle now and then, but I thought I'd mention this as a variation of your technique.
I'm grateful for you sharing such quality content with us. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
@@troygrady I've been following your work for quite a while and your finding and explanations are incredibly relevant and usefull.
I've been practicing the advice you shared and it made realized something I've been suspecting for while.
Whereas the extend to which the forearm is rotated is important, it appeared to me that the amount of flexion/extension of wrist is also important.
While they are seen as progress, I wonder if tommy cut and the forearm contour pioneered on the stratocaster, are actually a desirable feature. Especially for the less gifted among us, a flat body implies that the player has a pretty control and perception of the plane of the string and it promotes a position in which the elbow is a tad further away from the body and there is less wrist flexion. The effect varies depending on whereas the player is sitting or standing, how he positions the guitar. etc it is nonetheless a factor.
I just received a Les Paul copy and whereas I like the flat back, but I noticed that the carved top and the significant angle between the neck and the body messes with my picking.
I guess one can adapt but I wonder if the flat simple bodies (with a neck aligned with the body) are actually more ergonomic when picking mechanic is considered and not confort. I could also explain why there is no request in the tele community for the strat «ergonomic» cut.
Anyway, have a good week-end.
Another incredible Video Troy. Thanks very much ✌🏼
Wtf you started this project so many years ago i thought you had uncovered it all and then you make this mind-blowing video 🤯
What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.
@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books!
PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion
Absolutely incredible stuff. Your videos are unparalleled in quality!
Ever thought about doing the same for bass guitar right-hand fingerstyles/slap techniques? I would definitely watch that - I sometimes am baffled by the speed some bassists can reach with their fingers, and such detailed analyses would really help many musicians (like me) get better!
We've looked at bass picking (i.e. flat picking) techniques - they're the same as the motions on guitar so there's no need to modify them. However fingerstyle stuff, no. But there are tons of seemingly great bass channels, I assume other people are looking at these things.
Just stumbled across your channel... Pretty awesome sauce. Will be paying a lot of attention to your techniques
I’ve been waiting for this level of research to be put into musical technique for years… thank you
Evidence-based investigation is what we do!
@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.
ngl i didn´t quite get all of that. but what i did get out of this video is that fast "knocking on a door" motion you can do in the air, do that on the guitar. and if the motion seems a bit large, don´t worry about it. and after a few minutes of trying that mindset, fast down strokes do feel quite a bit easier and less tense.
That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.
I haven't really had a chance to fully explore everything presented here and I'm not sure I'm ready to switch up my pick grip, but I had a real paradigm shift after watching this video. I had some "door knocker" wrist motion in my playing already, but I considered it as a secondary part of my pick stroke. After focusing on it as the more primary method of movement it allowed me think about and experience the entire movement a bit differently. Thanks for your continuing exploration into this area!
I'm not sure there's a way to think about parts of a pickstroke! I say this only because I don't want to mislead you with all technical bedazzlement in these lessons if it's not actually going to produce results for you. With this technique, the simplest test is if you can do a rapid, easy-feeling "tapping" motion in the air. You can also do it by tapping on the guitar body. If you do it with a metrnome and you can go way faster than your usual picking motion, then that's a good sign that you're doing it. If the speed comes up more or less the same as what you normally do, then you might not be getting the benefit. Thankfully, this is one of those things where it's relatively easy to tell if it's working.
Trust me. I’m good at overthinking things.
When it comes to technique Mr. Grady is # 1 guitar teacher in my book !
OMG finally! I've been playing 15 years now and never could get this 220 bpm downstrokes like Hetfiled does
Thanks, this is pure magic through science
You guys are the best 🥰
Awesome! Let's see some clips! We're always learning from the way other people are learning.
I love to watch these vids and imagine what it’s like to have the ability to get your hands somewhat in sync with each other.
This was excellent. Amazing work.
I've been learning the guitar for about a year, and I've been doing this a lot accidentally when trying to pick really fast, which isn't really that fast considering my experience but not even realizing that it was an actual thing. sweet something to lean into then.
What an absolute unbelievable one of a kind genius this man is
This opened up my mind as to why my picking speed hasnt progressed.
Holy, you've improved a lot recently, that's awesome :D I've been reading the forum threads, this is really cool. thanks for this and to everyone on the forums. you're the man!
the pick grip thing is also interesting, the guys from Inferi use that exact grip in combination with this motion for their fast tremolos, although its possible with any pick grip I think. John Browne from Monuments also uses this motion, but with a more vanilla grip and he has craaazy downpicking
Not familiar with Inferi, will check them out. I've looked at John only a little, but from what I recall he looks like a "small mouse" + forearm player, similar to what I'm doing here ( instagram.com/p/B9AQ849n8VK/ ). Also a cool technique but I can't do this one as fast as the "tall mouse" motion.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Wow, I am truly mind blown. I've been playing for 30 plus years and I could never attain the speeds that I wish to attain or the effortless in the clean picking between string and notes. I am blown away by this. Thank you so much. New subscriber here. I plan on binge watching the videos on your channel and possibly ordering your instructional videos. Where have you been my whole life?👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Awesome, thank you!
This man is extraordinary
I feel like Troy is listening to me through my phone. I’ve been learning corridor of chameleons by Meshuggah and had to switch to this very technique. Then I see this video in my recommended. Funny timing! You rock, Troy
If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!
Very cool video. Looking forward to trying this out
Great stuff Troy! I had found this motion, but couldn't justify how it worked in terms of the muscles used/which planes it worked on. I knew a motion similar to scribbling on a piece of paper was close to what I wanted, or when I just shake my hand in the fastest way possible. Years ago I had experimented with a "plucking hair motion" which I was probably also adding some ulnar extension/radial flexion to make more of a dart thrower's motion, but I wouldn't add it consistently since I was trying to work on planes straight to the wrist, or add forearm rotation. Anyways this video helped me tighten things up and I'm shredding pretty good. I didn't have to modify my pick grip though - I use a grip that looks similar to Martin Miller's.
There's something I'd like your thoughts on though related to escape motion and that oval movement on the upstroke escape. I'm wondering what's going on with the oval there.
What I find I do which seems to be working well is just think of a "plucky" motion (aka reverse dart motion), but when switching strings I just add a bit more radial flexion to get the upstroke escape (perhaps that's what's going on with the oval), or a bit more ulnar extension for a downpick escape. The simple way I think of it though is just do the reverse dart motion with whichever wrist position puts me above the strings. The different ulnar extension and radial flexion "starting points" just come naturally if I think of plucking to get above the strings when changing strings. Also I keep the ulnar/pinky side "anchored" for leverage.
Now, to someone looking at my picking, it would look like I'm rotating (pronating/supinating) my forearm so that the thumb is further away from the strings on upstrokes, and closer to the strings on downstrokes. However, if I just did that then I wouldn't hit the strings if I used the reverse dart motions. So what is actually happening is varying degrees of ulnar extension or radial flexion which moves that base thumb/wrist joint. So I think I'm taking advantage of the motions that are already there in the reverse dart for double pick escape (or perhaps I'm using slightly more flexion/extension movement than radial/ulnar movement vs when I'm not changing strings, not sure). I should double check this to confirm, but I remember on one of Paul Gilbert's youtube videos on alternate picking, he talks about how the palm is further away/more open on upstrokes. I wonder if that's what he's basically doing.
But anyways, I was also looking at your video with Martin Miller, and I wonder if this is what's happening with him too. It's almost like double escape string hopping.
I guess I don't really have a question, but curious if you have comments on any of this. I'll have to let things sink in more and do some more practice, but for now I'm happy with the immediate improvements in the tightness in my playing from this video.
I've think you've crossed over into "picture = 1000 words" territory! I recommend posting a link to video on our forum - much better suited to discussing stuff in that format. Always interested in looking at cool technique!
@@troygrady Yeah definitely! It's hard to tell if what I describe lines up exactly with what I'm doing as well. I'll have to play around with this, and I'll look to post a vid at some point.
Here's today's thinking - a loose elbow (and shoulder) seems to help me. If I flap like a chicken, it seems to produce the reverse dart motions in my wrist. Curious if it's similar in your case. As funny as it sounds lol.
Thank you master I always appreciate your videos...
Songwriting has to have the cyclical roots of the modality's emotional spectrums AND the trained ear...
It takes months: starting with the parts (doodles) that you want to put together. You work on the link zones through bridges and accents just to paste it together. After getting that template created, you move on into the phrasing nuances that speak out the idea while holding back on the spelling things out.
The entire process is constantly evolving the piece into the end product so, that time of overly elaborating the parts and the piece is still relevant to the self lessons in choosing the chord usages and elaborations.
Thank you for this interview !!
@troygrady you'd already set the bar high but this is one of the most interesting videos you've done. Playing in the beginning was CRAZY and all the explanation of how the wrist works was very informative. Well done, I know you and the team put a ton of time into this stuff. 👏👏👏
EDIT: I wasn't even finished the video when I posted the above. Playing in the middle-end is even CRAZIER lol So awesome!
This single escape stuff is a great skill and doing it at the nether reaches of speed (1) is fun, (2) makes 200 bpm feel like walking backwards so improves all your other playing, and (3) leads to all kinds of cool idea generation. Like turning all your diatonic scales into 1234 / 4321 fingerings by adding an extra note.
Another perfect explanation and demonstration of a rather arcane subject. This is close to how I've been playing since I ditched the bent wrist style Marty Friedman uses so I could do reliable palm muting some 15 years ago. The other component is the rotation of the whole forearm as an added part of the overall motion. That rotation is a function of the bicep, which being a rather larger than forearm muscles, has a lot of endurance for these small motions. Combining some rotational motion in with the angled wrist motion (for me at least) gives a lot more endurance. The circular axis of the added motion, also makes avoiding unwanted string picks a little easier.
Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.
@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.
That's true, and Ed is a good example of a multi-technique player who used different motions for different phrases.
@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.
Amazing, Troy! Thank you very much for this!!!!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you Troy❤
Amazing, Troy
Thanks man!
Thanks Troy!
Amazing Troy! You always make it very clear en let us see the potential.
Excellent, that's what we're shooting for.
This is great! Thanks
This was a fantastic video. Thanks for posting!
Right on!
Абсолютно точный научный подход. Спасибо 👍
I've been playing a long time and I've been searching for why my alternate picking was plateauing and i wanted to go faster but i was locked.
It's because of thumb to pinky movement..100%!
I'm not near my guitar but i can already tell your spot on
This changed my life, i practiced downpicking for months with the closed hand technique but was stuck at 100 bpm 16th notes. I thought it was just a matter of putting the time in, thank you Troy.
Excellent. Which technique are you using and what kind of results are you getting? Always interested in learning.
Technique similar to 2:05, i can do about 120 bpm, need to work on stamina still. It starts to burn the wrist pretty fast but it feels much easier.@@troygrady
You are a god among men, thank you so much :))
Those extreme speeds sound amazing!!!! Man so need to take note because I absolutely love that sound, I could listen to it for hours on end... Made me think of Anthrax and Agent Steel
It's super cool - sounds like a helicop[ter. And kind of surprising when you get it working.
The Legend returns!
...Thursdays this fall, only on NBC!
Pretty amazing explanation Troy, after so many years of unlocking picking secrets and still breaking new ground in researching and explaining what our human hands have been doing all along and didn’t know it. Tried this and it does indeed allow for faster speeds and with less fatigue. Reminds me of my ancient Asteroids video gaming days blasting through all those rocks. One caveat for me is I hybrid pick a lot and with this hand orientation my fingers are pointed towards the ceiling and can't get to the strings. 😉
Yes for sure. The Andy Wood "small mouse" reverse dart technique can split the difference a little for hybrid. It's not as fast as "tall mouse" form. But with Andy's arm position, which is much flatter, you can still make a diagonal motion that goes pretty fast. It just won't feel as super duper easy.
@@troygrady makes sense, I'll give it a go
This is amazing. I love how far you've been pushing the knowledge that everyone has pretty much disregarded up until now.
There has been so much contradictory advice on picking technique and this idea that certain things only work for certain people. But Troy consistently shows that you can learn it all if you know how, whether it's Yngwie style shredding, bluegrass crosspicking, or effortlessly ripping through metal riffs at 250 bpm.
Also love the thumbnail, by the way.
I think there are still likely differences in individual ability, as there are in athletics. But how great those differences are is unclear. The god of this subject was Anders Ericsson who was super skeptical of genetic "talent" but did accept that some things, like tall height in basketball, were obviously beneficial. For everything else he was emphatic that you won't get the best performance until the best techniques are fully understood and there is coaching that can teach them. So in that respect, it's a good description of where guitar is at, since we're still figuring out things and disseminating the instruction for them.
@troygrady And thank you Troy for your team's work!
This is fascinating. I was in a band with another guitar pal who was far less committed to the instrument than myself, but his alternate picking was lightyears ahead of mine regardless of my hours of discipline, attempting to catch up with him. I guess he just naturally landed on this economic technique 'cause he certainly wasn't able to articulate it to me!
This is genius. that fast strum is what I can do now and again, but not consistently. Now I know how. Brb gotta go practice. Thanks!
That's the key! If you can get it sometimes and not others, that's the sig that you're onto something. I think of it like doing a skateboard trick.
@@troygrady Nice analogy! Certain skateboarding tricks are not going to work unless you setup your feet properly and generally someone has to show you that part... thanks again for lending your knowledge man!
I noticed I started doing this as I was trying to build up a wrist motion (as I played a long time with an elbow motion, which I wasn't happy with), but I always wondered why I couldn't do other wrist motions as well. Turns out they may just have not been adapted to the stuff I played.
However, you mentionned the guys from Archspire, and they have tons of USX riffs (take the main riff from Involuntary Doppelganger for example, they've got lots of tremolo picked, even number of notes per string riffs), how do they do it with that motion ? Is it the fingers tilting the pick ? Do they momentarily switch to regular dart thrower motion for those ? Start with an upstroke ? Something else ?
Great question! You can still do USX motion with a reverse dart / ergonomic mouse form. It just might not be your fastest wrist motion since the wrist isn't moving as closely aligned to the reverse dart axis. This also explains why you can do double escape motion, since that is essentially a semicircular combination of two slightly different directions of motion. Keep in mind, also, that this stuff is hypothesis and we haven't measured these in a lab setting, which would be pretty tricky to do. It's sort of a moot point though because there are a limited number of ways to anchor on a guitar, hold a pick, and move a joint. You try all the ones that are practical, you see which one(s) work best, and off you go! Shawn Lane had basically one motion (dart, non-reverse USX) and look at what he accomplished.
@@troygrady Thanks for you answer! Really love your work by the way :)
Tobi Morelli has incredible ability to change between pick holding techniques within different riffs and always in a cosistent manner
Great video. Very informative. Thanks for posting. One question. Doesn't the type of pick you use make a difference? Or does it really matter?
By make a difference you do you mean "has an effect"? Because everything has an effect. Certain pick materials and gauges produce more chirp, certain pick shapes are rounder and produce more sliding and more bass tone, and so on. If you're asking does playing really fast require a certain type of pick, no, not exactly. You can test this by peforming the motions in the air or by tapping on the guitar. The speed comes from the joint motion, not from using a certain type of pick. Obviously if the pick attack is wrong you will grab on the strings and that will hinder you, so attack is always important. But you control that by your overall form and grip, to make sure the pick slices the string smoothly. It is already taken care of.
been loving your stuff since the start... the way I pick is in my THUMB... i bending my thumb gives me and up stroke and straightening my thumb gives me a down stroke ( this is more noticeable on one string) this also by nature incorporates two way pick slanting....
the way i came up with this was from thinking picking parallel to the strings was what was causing me to break them but it was a sharp saddle on a cheap squire strat :P funny how things work
So many breakthroughs start as accidents or misperceptions. Embrace the chaos!
Such great insights throughout! My experience is that my top speed is basically the same (traditional vs "reverse dart thrower") but I can maintain that speed for longer with less strain using this technique. One thing that surprised me was that George Benson didn't get a mention...he's the first name that came to mind when thinking of guitar players that use this style of picking. Wondering if his technique is considered different somehow? To me it seems like an exact match...
In George's case he uses the pick grip, but it's not clear to what extent he's using the joint motion. He very well could be! He very often plays with long sleeves, so there could be some forearm in his technique that I can't see. Certainly, when you see that grip though, there's at least a good chance it's reverse dart. Here's Carlos Santana and George, and Carlos is definitely doing it! ua-cam.com/video/k26X3l8GQRw/v-deo.htmlsi=Lbf-QrH7vHdEsugb&t=274
Great work TROY!!
Thanks for watching!
@@troygradythis looks like upward pick slanting. Can we use this with downward pick slanting? I’m using the Yngwie’s picking motion, learned using your course. Thank you 🙏🏻
You're an amazing player man:)
HOLY SHIT this made my downpicking speed go from a max of 85 bpm (where i got tired) to 95 bpm and sometimes higher depending on what i play, and my arm feels less exhausted! In one day! Thank you very much, this has greatly improved my picking!
You’re a machine Troy
That was helpful 👍
Awesome content, as always. But I never see any talk about his tone. Troy's high gain tones are awesome. I'd like to know what your signal chain looks like in these clips too!
Just the usual Cornford Hellcat. I actually think for extreme metal stuff like this it's not quite right - the super modern amps give you that gun-like chug on the muted notes. The Hellcat doesn't do that. If I were doing more metal stuff I would probably pick up something more hi gain / modern. For everything else though the Hellcat is great.
@@troygrady oh, for sure. But your tones always sound great, and I've always wondered what you're playing through. Thanks for responding!
amazing work!
Thank you!
Another great video
Never disappoints
Any news on when the magnet will be back in stock?
We're prepping a batch now and hope to have something in the store in a month or so.
My dad just retired recently. As a guitar player he asked me if i would teach him some guitar to reclaim an old goal of his now that he has free time.
I will definitely be showing him this and other videos that demystify certain things that lurk beneath that surface level that most players struggle with at first and need to discover through feel for themselves.
I play more extreme stuff and have since i was 15 and a reverse dart thrower style is what i landed on for picking speek 17 years ago through necessity, trial, and error. My dad wont ve needing this type of speed, but at his age he will need to be exerting his effort efficiently to avoid overuse injuries while learning, staying healthy and injury free is the only way to reach a goal like that in a timely manner.
Cheers Troy and co.
That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.
Troy you're the legend, but i Doubt you'll believe that i tried that 7 days ago, after pause in playing of 1+ year and now i see video of yours ☺+science. I saw it from George Benson, Shown Lane, and before them from DJANGO and bunch of Manouche Jazz players, also in a book of Dave Celentano ''Flaying Fingers'' 30 years ago He gave proposition to try that technique. People called it ''Reverse''. Anyhow, i never had a guts to play like that due to its rare in rock, blues and HM fast solo picking. When i tried after 1+ years that technique it was far more natural and easier to me to play like that then with a usual approach.
You are the only one who underline explanation why something work and goes deep into science. BRAVO !
There are tons of little coincidences and accidents like this in learning instrument technique so I believe it!
@@troygrady WOW thank you so much Troy for the answer and that you believe, I agree with you 1000% about little coincidences! ( i've made a few spelling mistakes so pardon me for that pls). Thank you for all explanations, when you do it then it's makes more legit, and i'm sure this what you've made will have a HUGE impact on a future players, as well as all your videos and methods did in the past. You have changed how people approach to the guitar 100%. For a lot of things i have to thank you, due to some of your videos have helped me in the past to understand that is OK to tilt the pick. My teacher 25+ years ago insisted that i have to hold the pick parallels to the strings, and practice super slow. That gave me some usual results but your methods are far far better. You are excluding the guess work, and give people trust in it so that with some practice they will have a great results.
I'm still not the sure should i change my entire picking to this one that you shared, but i'll use it more often. if someone sas it looks strange then i'll tell them ''check on Troy's channel''.
Sometimes We have to believe more in ourselves when We see that something is giving results, no matter that only a minority of players are doing that or even if it seems 'unique'. That was my problem, i never had a guts to go for that technique all the way, but now thx to you that will change i promise. THANK YOU TROY, you are the BEST!
i do want to mention the awesome fat metal tone from those single coils he's playing
Aha, they're not single coils. They're Zexcoil which is actually six coils. It's their own design and they can get any sound from single to bucker. These are their bucker model.
Digging in! Are you able to use this technique with EJ style licks (I imagine the fret hand might be the limit here)? I have found my pick arm willing/wanting me to go into a position like I see with Joscho Stephan, but at too great of an angle I lose control. Time to experiment.
This technique is a DSX technique specifically so you would need to start EJ lines on upstrokes. Which means you won't have the downstroke sweeps you need for things like the EJ fives pattern. Also, as you're pointing out, almost nobody will be able to actually fret 2nps lines past a certain speed. Shawn Lane was probably the best at this but he would still have limits that are far lower than his limits for his 3nps and 4nps fretting. Also, Shawn was a dart (i.e. non-reverse) player, so his motion was inverted compared to this one. It was USX, and he could use the original EJ picking patterns including the downstroke sweeping. Different arm position / motion / etc. but similar concept.
With me, I think it is a synchronization between left and right that I struggle with....as in speed runs.....if your fingering hand is slow when playing runs, it really doesn't matter how fast your picking hand can go when it comes to fast runs...but that's a completely different subject than what this video covers...this is a way cool video in regard to what it is covering...which appears to be playing extremely fast while staying on one note or chord. Thanks for this one, Troy, hope you and yours are doing well!
For sure, the intro is all riff examples, but I also included coordinated single-note lead playing examples in the alternate picking section at 15:31. I wanted to make sure players understand that these are just wrist motions, and they can be used to play anything else that people typically with the wrist joint, i.e. everything!
As to hand sync, yes, super critical topic. However, one thing I want to point out is that even tremolo picking with no fretting hand can be "synchronized", in a manner of speaking. Even at very fast speeds, and even with no click, it is possible to know, by feel, where all your downstrokes (or upstrokes) are in time, and to stop on any of them, so you can play an exact quantity of notes. This is true even when playing fast enough that someone listening may not be able to follow individual notes. The ability to "chunk" your motions into groups is how it's done, and it is actually the first step in two-handed synchronization. If the picking motions are not grouped in this way, then they will just be a blur, and you won't be able to link them up to the fretting motions at known intervals. There's a little more on this subject in our old Cracking the Code series ( ua-cam.com/video/0rjC-ph9WYA/v-deo.html ).
@@troygrady Thanks Troy (corrected the mis-spell of "Trey" in my comment...sorry about that, haha!)...I'll check the video reference of 15:31...thanks for the reference! "You just have to choose lines that you can actually fret at these tempos"....so it appears you have to know what lines your fingering hand is capable of accurately fretting at those picking hand speeds...ok...got it...thanks again!
Wow, this was incredibly helpful!!! Liked and subbed, and if I remember tomorrow, I'll throw some money your way to do my bit in compensating you for your research. Great and valuable work!
Thank you!
Can’t wait to see a deep dive playlist of vids dedicated to Matteo Mancuso unique approach to guitar picks
Ultimate cool stuff!!
So if this is your primary motion for certain lines, how would you go about accommodating USX lines? (for example, lots of fast metal that has an even number on the low E string into notes on the A string).
Ps- awesome, awesome video- probably my fav one of yours yet!
USX can be done from either small mouse or tall mouse position, as can DBX motion. No change in form is necessary, you just change the direction the wrist is moving. It just may not be as fast as your fastest DSX motion from that same arm position. That's the technical answer. However in actual practice, most people only know how to do one fast motion. And most of the time, for players who use this type of arm position, that motion will be the DSX direction. I think this is because, again, from this arm position, the DSX motion lines up more closely with the reverse dart axis. This makes it easier to do, potentially faster, and more importantly, easier to figure it out by trial and error.
I recommend purchasing the pickslanting primer. Its got tons of great information. One thing I didnt realize is that Downward escape is the fastest (vs USX).
Yeah it's a very interesting question. It's mainly just that there is one direction of the wrist that is the fastest. However the escape you get is somewhat secondary - it's determined by the overall arm position and form. It's possible that you could use the "fast" direction of wrist motion, but cause it to be USX by using the right form. Notice that many death metal players use a highly "flexed" wrist, like you're cradling a baby. I think this is why they do that. With a straighter wrist, that same motion might produce DSX. So some experimentation is necessary.
@@troygrady Thanks for responding Troy. Having worked with it for about 6 months I find I like a more heavilyflexed wrist when on the high E (USX). If I am moving across the strings I flatten out somewhat.
Thank you so much! 🥰😇
HUGE cool points for that clip of Roy Clark from "The Odd Couple"...imo his finest recorded live performance (that I've seen anyway)
Roy was amazing!
WELL! I know what I’m trying today!