5 watched Adric die and couldn't do anything about it. he then had 8 regenerations to think about what he could have done differently. It's not a plot hole, it's character growth.
*_Exactly!_* just because they're the Doctor doesn't mean they Automatically know how to do _Everything_ right off the bat. Especially when it's in a pressured moment like that.
Tbh - i just think it's nothing more than bad writing during the Chibnall era They didn't want to kill a character - so they made some lazy wibbly-wobbly plot convenience
I was literally going to post this myself! Glad I'm not the only one. It's a shame they couldn't have put some reference to Adric in Praxius to better clear this up - wouldn't need to be anything explicit, just the Doctor muttering "Never again!" or something before performing the rescue. Long time fans would know what she was getting at, but for those unaware it would go over their heads
David Tennant's 'fairwell' might have been slightly over-indulgent, but the final goodbye from Wilfred and his salute was one of the most heartwrenching moments in the whole show
I seem to be the only one who thinks David Tennants interpretation of The Doctor was the least engaging of the New Who era. The focus on his relationship with Rose Tyler, and later the interaction with Martha Jones marked a pasage where it was all about making the Doctor invincible, and that was a journey these 'romantic' companions took us on. Of course as viewer we always knew the Doctor would win out because of his plot armour, but this period marked a point where that plot armour became an in storyline fact and that was a blunder the New Era has never fully recovered from. Some of Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi's best performances notwtihstanding Like over-use of the sonic screwdriver the moments when the Doctor can say - ''I'm the Doctor so just surrender now'' - quickly became a deus ex machina for lazy writing and paper think stories.
Seeing Bernard Cribbins was heartbreaking. For those who don't know, he passed away a few days ago. He was a very special man and an outstanding actor. RIP Bernard, thanks for the memories.
A couple of things... I've always believed that Sacha's Master was actually an incarnation that pre-dates the Gomez version, maybe Simms' as well. His plans as always way over the top and convoluted, much like Delgado's and Ainley's. Given we've only seen half a dozen versions of the character from at least two different regen cycles, it is possible the latest version is in fact an earlier one. I think the main problem with Five rescuing Adric was that, even without the damaged console, the TARDIS was still unreliable at best, and that any attempt to fly it with such precision would likely have endangered everyone.
also something to consider is that of Course the Thirteenth Doctor could do it. that does Not mean the doctor in their Earlier form would have known how to. it could have been that they learned From that failure and gained a knowledge they didn't possess in the earlier gen. i mean really, surely even the good Doctor has to learn stuff to be able to do it. they may have had to revisit that period over and over again to sort out How to do it in the later time period. then again, maybe it's true that they just din wanna. XD
I actually thought that about Sacha's Master, too. It seemed to make sense with all the other confusing timey-wimey stuff going on with 13 and their past. Of course, I also thought Missy was really and truly dead, so I don't know if I was just clinging to that idea too hard.
@@gordonhotchkiss646 Do you have a source for that? Not that I doubt your word, I was just hoping otherwise, else what was the point of Missy's redemption arc? Or was that simply another case of Chibnall not giving a damn about what had come before?
I feel that one villain who has been way overused is Davros. He was killed by his own creations at the end of Genesis Of The Daleks, which was a fitting punishment. But he's taken on this kind of god-like status, immortal, without any explanation. He was simply a Kaled scientist, and I tend to think that the Kaleds and the Thals were just future humans who had forgotten that their distant ancestors had come from Earth. He had no special powers like regeneration. The writers seem to think that, "Oh, he's a great villain, let's bring him back again," but he should really have stayed dead.
I'm so glad to see Ellie giving her own opinions and being herself more. The scripts always make her sound b----y and nitpicky, but hearing her tell how she really feels in her own voice instead of the "announcer" voice makes her do much more likable and relatable.
When the newest Doctor was announced she was in the impromptu WhoCulture video talking about it, and the comments about her were so much more positive than on her previous, purely scripted vids. I'm wondering whether someone there realised this and she's been given a bit more freedom when recording.
Very engaging vid from Ellie… there’s still a script credit but her delivery is wonderfully natural. Kudos for admitting to not knowing enough to comment on Classic era too.
While I disagree with your description of how the scripts present her, I do agree with the assessment of her personal experience adding to the quality.
I do agree with the doctor being romantically en loved with his companions feels really awkward. It worked with Rose and of course River song. Otherwise, it feels very forced and cring worthy.
I didn't think it worked with Rose too much tbh. I found it a bit creepy given how young and clueless she was, plus the whole Mickey thing. It worked better with River Song as she was more on the Doctor's level rather than a child barely out of high school.
See I always felt that after rose it was more like the love a father has for their child vs a romantic partner. Like he's proud of their lives and even really accepts rory. Idk just my take
Colin Baker is criminally underrated! Big finish helps his character but his TV series had some good points and the 6th doctor himself was brilliant after the attack of the cybermen.
For my money the Timeless Child should have been Susan. And like you could still have had the whole previous regenerations thing like maybe the doctor really ran away to save susan from the experiments, but was killed on their last regen in the process and Susan transfering new set of regenerations from her unlimited knocked out the doctor's memory of past regenerations and they remembered it all happening as the Hartnel doc
In an interview with DWM (Doctor Who Magazine) interview, Chibnall stated that the Timeless Child was meant to render the Doctor origin-less and increase the potential of storytelling for the writers. In addition, he doesn't mind if future writers ditch the retcon, so feel free to ignore it to your heart's content.
This is *so* much better than what we were given on screen! It lets us keep the best bits (e.g. Jo Martin's excellent fugitive Doctor) while ditching the "Doctor = god" nonsense. It would also give Susan the proper respect she deserves as well as lending a nice origin story for her that makes sense of the Doctor/Susan relationship and his protectiveness towards her.
Where the companion farewell of the Tennent doctor is concerned. I think it makes sense character wise, since this doctor had the most companions at least in new who, but also was the most emotionally connected to the companions too. So seeing him go back to each of his companions to say farewell fits his character, while also seeing how some of those companions end up even one off ones feels consistent an nice.
The problem with the Daleks is, they haven't been used _properly._ They're the greatest enemy so the story has to be big, like this time could be the end of The Doctor. You shouldn't be able to see it coming and you can't find out its them immediately. There has to be a big reveal like in Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways or Army of Ghosts. The Stolen Earth worked despite giving the game away in the beginning because it was such a diabolical scheme, Davros made it worse by making The Doctor see that he's not really the good guy and then you had an already insane Dalek go insane.
I also want to see them be the cause of a regeneration for real. Like in stolen earth but a proper regen. Idk if that happened in classic who but we are yet to see it for real in new who and we are supposed to believe they are the most formidable opponent. There has to be a consequence or we stop believing. Same idea with the cybermen. Like I don’t want to see a companion die but we may need to see a conversion to believe in their strngth in the near future. Or someone close like when other universe Jackie was converted. That was a good way to show no one was exempt
The other difference between Adric and later cases was that the freighter was “skipping time warps”, making it impossible to land on because “there’s nothing to lock onto”. So even before the Tardis console was damaged, he couldn’t go back for Adric.
I am not familiar with the classic who to know that but it makes sense. I have said that maybe it was a learning experience for the doctor. Like he could have been thinking all these years of how he could have saved him so when the situation came up again he had a plan. Everyone learns thru experience, even the doctor. And we have learned Chibnal isn’t a good show runner for the doctor so we went back to RTD. See we all learn😊
What was the point of Eleven's new regeneration cycle if the Doctor really had infinite regenerations? If the information about the Timeless Child had been buried so deeply within the Matrix as the Master had suggested, then they almost certainly didn't know the Doctor was the Timeless Child and believed, as he himself did, that he had come to the end of his final incarnation.
This is something I'd put in the Timeless Child thing. First, time lords, when given the power to regenerate, had a soft limit of 12 regenerations imposed on them. They could petition for more, or even after death,t hey could be resurrected, with a new set. Early on, the Doctor showed a propensity to not work well with other time lords and would run off on their own. So, when the Doctor was recaptured, the doctor had this limit imposed on them (after a mind wipe), to force the Doctor to return to Gallifrey for a reset (and obligatory mind wipe). So the cycle began. 13 lives, either returns to Gallifrey or turns to moosh (Like the Master in The Deadly Assassin, and in the TV movie), and gets retrieved, gets a new set or regenerations, and gets a mind wipe, then goes on their way. That could mean the Doctor might have had a different name during parts of their lives, which could mean some of the Doctor's friends, even their own parents, could be the Doctor. Even a future villain could be the Doctor in a previous life set.
I love Clara Oswald, but I wanted to have Victorian Clara as his companion. That said, Clara's hoop dress would've been a problem for Clara being able to move freely in her adventures in the TARDIS. The Timeless Child was the main reason the Doctor Who show only managed 2 million viewers worldwide, by Chibnall's Sea Devils special.
The second Doctor had a Victorian companion, Victoria Waterman, whose scientist father was killed after being used by the Daleks. She soon stopped wearing her era's clothes, and ended up living in the twentieth century.
@@patrickmusson4571 Some of the wiped Troughton episodes have been reconstructed as cartoons, using the original dialogue recordings, and are available to watch, on DVD, Blu-ray or in some cases they may be being streamed by someone. The same goes for some of the Hartnell episodes, where the dialogue recordings still exist.
@@julianaylor4351 I guess it shows how relatively inexpensive it is to retain audio recording than bulky video tapes or film stock. What a shame that such an eclectic performance such as Troughton's fell victim to the BBC's penny-pinching. They didn't realize what a goldmine those early episodes would be in the future. I just hope I can find out WHO is streaming those animated episodes and which entity is selling the DVD/BluRays.
The Daleks haven’t been over used for me they’ve just been underused by Moffat and Chibnall. Daleks were back every single series with RTD and yet they shocked us each time, we felt scared each time. Even to this day you can still pick up on the sheer terror of the Daleks slowly and unstoppably advancing through satellite 5. Being an actual threat and killing people we liked. Then the reveal of the daleks in army of ghosts STILL holds up. Series 4 finale was high stakes, the entire world at threat, everyone we love comes back and we get consequences, a companion is going to die, we’ve got to say goodbye to Donna, we have Davros, all these companions etc. it’s brilliant. What started to be a problem was Moffats use of the Daleks. He really watered them down, made them into villains who stand around in the background and don’t do anything, Moffat thought having daleks just…there is enough to be a threat. They’re not, just like RTD you actually have to have them do something. Not just shove hundreds of cgi daleks onto the screen and think ‘job done, that’ll scare everyone’. Just think about it, in every Dalek story Moffat has written can anybody tell me something that the daleks ACTUALLY do? (Into the Dalek is the only episode in moffats entire era where the daleks are a threat and it’s not written by Moffat). Moffat just made exterminations pointless, easily escapable by teleport and sonic screwdriver, and had a whole episode about the time war where the daleks exterminate absolutely nobody. The only people Moffat exterminates on screen in his entire era are two background Movellans in series 10, the Dalek then goes on to practice his storm trooper aim on nardole. Chibnall on the other hand brought back the death, he brought back the threat of the daleks, but his scattering of awful dialogue, out of place jokes and poor delivery of script just delegitimize all the right stuff he’s doing in having the daleks actually kill people. But then again he fails on being able to give any of his characters characterization so even though he’s killing people, we don’t CARE that he’s killing people. So RTD era: very good at writing Daleks Moffat: waters down daleks into a non threat Chibnall: makes daleks threatening but no characterization or people we care about on screen cancels any of this out
@@obiwankenobi687 it's complicated to explain. They have only appeared in the New year's Day Specials. As for the actual show they haven't been in it for 7 years
@@benmiller3252 you mean they haven’t had a proper episode dedicated to them for 7 years outside of the New Years specials? Just showing up as cameos you mean
In Earthshock's case, part of the reason the Doctor's couldn't get on the freighter was that due to the freighter travelling back through time, its coordinates kept changing and the Cyberman damaging the console was another reason on top of that why he couldn't save Adric
@@horrorstew3577 The freighter crashing into the Earth is the fixed point but is Adric being on the freighter part of that fixed point? If necessary swap Adric with an equivalent mass so the same amount of mass hits the Earth.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer Yes, it is a fixed point for Adric as well. It changes the parallel universe Gallifrey that we first saw him on, and is the Gallifrey Romana goes to, since Adric is a family member of one of the alternate founders of Time Lord society in that parallel universe. It could also affect the entire premise of the Time War, since the Daleks may get their hands on different Time Lord tech that is only unique to that dimension. That would have meant the Time War is mutli dimensional in addition to temporal in nature.
To me when the show says the Doctor has unlimited regenerations, then the doctor has unlimited regenerations all we know is the timeless child had the ability to regenerate, we don’t know how many times. The timeless child was then chameleon arched and that essence was put in the fobwatch. Then the body was given 12 regenerations.
As much as I like Sacha Dhawans master, it feels like a slap in the face to have the master come back as a psychotic villain again after such a fantastic performance from Michelle Gomez and having missy become a companion to the doctor. I’m all for the master coming back and them not explaining how because it adds to the mystery, but when you’re going to have a huge character shift like that, I feel like it needs to be addressed in the show, especially when Sachas master was so much more bent on killing the doctor then any other nu who incarnation
The Jo Martin Doctor makes sense if she fits in between the Patrick Troughton Doctor and the Jon Pertwee Doctor. At the end of "The War Games" the Time Lords forced the second doctor to start to regenerate but we the viewer do not get to see regeneration finish with the actor swap. Perfect place to slip in the Jo Martin Doctor. The Doctor having unlimited number of regenerations could be known to just Tecteun. The rest of the Time Lords including the Doctor would think he was a normal Time Lord with 12 regenerations. That keeps the Time Lords giving the Doctor another set of regenerations in "The Time of the Doctor" intact because they thought he had only 12 regenerations.
It's heavilly implied, that they also altered the Doctor's physiology, most likely through the chameleon arch thing like 10th did in Human nature, according to the glitches in the Matrix, referred to as the "island images" (the ones about that police guy, who fell down the cliff, but didn't die, the cover story for what happened to the Timeless Child), the memory wipe at the end is done with a pain inducing device, just like in 10th Doctor's case. It links perfectly. Perhaps memory wipe wasn't the only thing they did to the TC/Doctor.
I think one of the things that alot of us missed the first time was that just like Timelords altered their DNA to be able to regenerate, they might have altered the Doctor's DNA to memory wipe after 12 regenerations. Thus, the added regenerations given were so he would go on without losing who he was and starting all over again. Just a thought -
13 even says ‘did they reset me back to a child?’ The answer is of course “yes”. Which they clearly did. When they’re finished with the timeless child, it’s reset back to a baby and grows up to be William Hartnell, he enters the timelord academy and gets the same regeneration limit as everyone else. The show then runs completely as normal with no interruptions or retcons or continuity issues from then on
@@obiwankenobi687 That was more or less my take as well. The 12th Doctor was originally supposed to die on Trenzalor and we saw in Turn Left that the Doctor could die so whatever the Timelords did when they "reset" them into Hartnell's Doctor obviously added a limiter to their regeneration ability. The only point about I'm not sure where I stand about 12th's death is whether the Timelords gave The Doctor an other set of 12 regeneration or just removed that limiter.
@@MastarNinja 11th. Matt Smith's Doctor is 11th. 12th is Capaldi. Tennant's first regeneration (Meta-crisis event) doesn't count as a new Doctor, he just healed himself and the rest of the energy, while still spent, was sent to the nearest recepient, which was his hand, so he didn't have to change his body and face. That means he's just repaired 10th Doctor from that point on, not a whole new 11th, still the same old guy. Same face, same personality quirks, same incarnation, basically the same 10th Doctor.
The Daleks being reduced to 1 episode every year but making them deadly and continuing that first narrative was the best thing for them, the 10th Doctor's era made them feel overused but still overpowered and ruthless and Moffat's tenure made them background villains that were about outsmarting The Doctor which never used to be the case. Someone else said about Chibnall making them threatening but again killed no main characters or their relatives; like the Scout Dalek having the perfect moment to kill Ryan's dad which would've brought more character dev to him and *Eve of the Daleks* having secondary characters to kill over and over again with no real consequences really brought down the immersion factor for them .
WhoCulture needs an expert in the classic Doctor Who run because every time the talk about it, they all admit they do not know much about it if anything at all. I'll volunteer.
I think sacha dewan master origin will be explore in whittaker final episode later this year being centenary special. It makes sense hence why he involved in that story
Well I don't. So far there has been absolutely nothing in the storyline that is contradictory with what we've been told about the Doctor before. The Doctor believed up to that point that they'd used so many regenerations, but that doesn't make it a fact, and it's quite clear that the Time Lords have the science to wipe people's memories (such as Jamie and Zoe). As such there's no reason why the Doctor hadn't lived previous lives before having their memory wiped and forcefully regenerated. Likewise, there's no indication so far that the Doctor isn't a Time Lord, even if they're from a different universe even if they have infinite regenerations (Rassilon was possibly working on perpetual regeneration as a form of immortality (The Five Doctors)). With all of this in mind there's absolutely no reason why The Timeless Child can't quite happily fit into the previous continuity.
After the Timeless Child Controversies one could follow with a Ouroboros storyline as in have the Doctor/the Time Lords create themselves. One could have the Time Lords from one universe send a child (The Doctor) to another universe to start the Time Lords again in that second universe. To make it more fun what if The Doctor's original universe is the one Rose Tyler is currently stuck in (Pete's World)?
(Sorry if some things below happen to be badly phrased. I'm not a native speaker of English, and I've had some doubts on the wording.) Wasn't Pete's World rather another dimension of the universe we know than another universe entirely, though? The concepts might be pretty similar, but I don't think the last part of your comment would work in the series. The "Ouroboros storyline" is a cool idea, though. I've had a somewhat different idea while thinking about the whole of Classic and New Who (+ the expanded universe). I won't share all the details but I started wondering whether or not the ability to regenerate could be the result of multiversal travel rather than something inherent to the Doctor's species regardless of what it truly is. In this scenario, the Doctor's species might not be Time Lords trying to start again in another universe. It could just as well be any humanoid species with no real knowledge in either other universes or even advanced temporal concepts. What if regeneration was an ability you could obtain only through travelling from one universe to another, as a result of some unspecified, never-witnessed, not-necessarily-rational phenomena? I think I'd like that idea because I feel that it would restore part of the "magic" surrounding regenerations and Time Lords. I've got a friend who has only watched New Who, and one day he said to me that before "The Timeless Children", he'd considered that the Time Lords had an almost magical relationship to time. I'd say their biology is too different from our own for us to even begin to imagine how it feels to FEEL time the way they do. It's true that they can see possible futures and shape reality on a much larger scale than human could even imagine. Knowing that, I think I share my friend's view that there was initially something "exceptional" about the Time Lords being able to perceive Time in such formidable ways from birth, and them having regenerations keeping them from dying, making them prime observers of basically everything Life has to offer. Having watched Classic Who, and in particular the Fifth Doctor's serial "Mawdryn Undead", I must say I'm a bit gutted that the Timeless Children has apparently approved the genetic nature of regeneration. It throws technical explanations in the plot whereas "Mawdryn Undead" was basically the story of non-Time Lords scientists trying to "crack the code" of regeneration for themselves, who were "doomed" for trying to replicate an ability that's also kind of burden. This story was meaningful, I think. Regeneration wasn't a burden to be shared with other species. Even Minyans (from the Fourth Doctor's serial Underworld) only got access to a technological, less perfect, and most importantly not innate form of regeneration from their early encounters with members of the early Time Lord society. We've seen a lot of the "burden" element in New Who, every time the Doctor insists that they have lost many loved ones and have to keep leaving companions behind who should pursue lives of their own rather than stay by their side forever. Having said that, I think it's kind of dumb to have made regeneration a genetic thing recently, because it just makes Tecteun more successful at cracking the "regeneration code" than the scientists from Mawdryn Undead were. Things become even worse if you consider that we're told that she had a test subject with a conveniently infinite number of regenerations to experiment upon. The scientists from Mawdryn Undead were on their own, with only stolen Time Lord technology at hand to try and develop regeneration for themselves. It's a bit of a shame to explore the genetic route again now with Tecteun, since her only merit is probably to have conducted experiments on a test subject that couldn't even die from her making mistakes on the way to success. It makes things appear like the only way for Tecteun to get it wrong would have been to fail the "regeneration transfer" within her own initial limited lifespan, and really, it annoys me greatly. I mean, okay, maybe Tecteun was intelligent enough, and determined enough, to pull the "inter-species regeneration transfer" off. It doesn't change that it's a bad story, if one cares about what's been done in the past of the show. I could say "Tecteun was sort of a mother to the Doctor, and the two of them remained together, so... she used that to her own advantage. Fair enough." but really, that makes little sense to me. Chibnall just did a "Mawdryn Undead" type of experiment, with none of the risks, and because there was no risk, it all went weirdly fine. Sure, people have said that Tecteun kind of tortured the Doctor and acted horrible with them both prior and after the regeneration experiments - the Division was created (much?) later - but, reading opinions online, I feel like no one else really realises how wrong it is. And I think it's sad, because one could legitimately complain about Chibnall's new take on Gallifrey's past. I don't even mind the emphasis on gender change during the "Experiments sequence" - I confess I've had some issues with some of the social/political comments of this era, but Jodie as the Doctor was never the problem and I've come to like the era in spite of its huge flaws. It's just the fact that Tecteun succeeded in replicating regeneration through science that bothers me. It's been made plausible, but it's still terrible. If the original regeneration ability were a consequence of multiversal travel, I wouldn't mind the genetic transfer to the Gallifreyan population that much. I'd probably like the idea of a "traveller's DNA" being passed downed through generations of explorers and travel enthusiasts. By the show's new standards, I'm not sure where all of this is going... but I'll stop writing for now. I just wanted to share my idea, with some context and I had to share my opinion on a few things. I hope you'll have found my post interesting.
The Timeless Child is not, in any way, disrespectful or a canon-breaker! And who says the Timelords that existed later even had a clue about this past? And at that point, they had tied the regeneration energy to the Heart of the TARDISes, so it's perfectly natural for River to have become the River we know and love. On top of that, if the Martin Doctor was well before the Hartnell Doctor, as she calls their TARDIS a ship just like Hartnell does, and they did, as Whittaker's Doctor said, reset them back to a child, it makes perfect sense! They are reset back to an infant, they grow into that child that Clara visits and tells that fear is a superpower, and then grows up into the Doctor that begins with Hartnell. I have had zero problem with that storyline at all. It fits, and fits well, and it doesn't break any canon at all. And it's fascinating, too! It doesn't make the Doctor a "chosen one," it just makes them an orphan. That isn't a problem. At all. As for the rest, I didn't have a problem with any of what was supposed to be divisive on this list. Even the Adric part! The Doctor hadn't learned how to negotiate with the TARDIS enough at the time (remember, you don't fly her, you negotiate with her) for them to manage to lock on to a ship that was drifting all over the timeline as it hurtled towards Earth. That is, if it were ever possible, even for a full crew and a TARDIS that isn't 'knackered.' I s'pose this is a good collection, but I just don't find any of it negative or divisive, IMO. _~shrug~_
I agree about your thoughts on the Timeless Child. I personally liked it as it was revealed, because it opened so many doors and so many possibilities for the show to explore. It can give us cool storylines about Gallifrey's past or the Doctor's home universe. Yet it was not really explored at all in season 13 I feel like its potential was wasted. I don't dislike the Timeless Child, but I want it to get more concrete in next seasons.
Gallifrey and the Timelords should be left mysterious. Explaining them diminishes them. In general people's imaginations can create something more interesting than can be told or shown.
I feel like Daleks and Cybermen are often misused, just to put something evil, but aren't that interesting. But I also really love it when it gets to some more imaginative plots around them. When we think about how many times they have appeared in the show since the beginning, it's incredible to see new ideas emerge !
If they do explore the timeless child further the one thing they must never do is reveal the doctors name. I feel that will be the shark jump moment that will finally kill the show.
The thing that everyone forgets about Hell Bent is that Clara DIDN'T escape her death. She will inevitably have to return to that one point and face the raven. She was pulled out of her timeline and was temporarily frozen. She's not immortal and she knows that. Was it necessary to give her her own tardis? That's debatable. But the point is, what we see in Face The Raven will happen the same - Everything Clara does in Hell Bent is in that split second before she dies. So in my opinion, Hell Bent doesn't retcon or ruin Face The Raven. Also I'm not trying to make anyone like Clara or Hell Bent, if you don't like them that's fine. I just wanted to make the point about Clara not escaping her death.
It does still happen but it can happen at any moment she wants. She will only die because eventually…people die. She can have a happily perfect life for however many years she chooses. She could literally turn up at any point and travel with any future Doctor for as long as she wants. She may as well be Martha, she could come back and travel again whenever. Just as as long as at some point in the next billion years she goes back and ‘dies’. He did the same with Bill, Amy and Rory and riversong. None of his companions get a tragic ending and none of them really die
this is almost the same as the steve rogers living a full life in the past with peggy carter as he will eventually turn up in the present to hand the shield to sam!
It's a way to have your cake and eat it too. She is effectively immortal. She can exist across all of time and space, and only once she has filled all of eternity with Clara, must she die. It's part of the lack of any stakes in the later series.
@@EAKugler she could literally have kept travelling with the doctor. He doesn’t need to go too far anymore to save her as she no longer needs to be saved. She’s practically immortal. There’s no reason 12 and Clara couldn’t just travel together forever on tv or why Clara can’t return to the show She could literally come back and do a complete additional series like any regular companion and the way Moffat writes her exit would still make this make sense. This is what happens when you’re so afraid of death and giving anyone a tragic ending, the consequences of your stories start to make less sense
When I saw the title of this video I just knew Clara was going to be on this list, and fairly high too! 😆 Now, being a fan of Clara I don't agree with all the hate she seems to receive by some fans, I can understand how some may not like her, or think of her as their favorite companion, but I think she gets too much of the blame for some of the things assocaiated with her. The flaw in the Impossible Girl story arc shouldn't be focused so much on Clara but the Doctor himself. It's he who can't accept that she's just an ordinary woman and not some special puzzle that needs to be understood and found out what meaning she has for seemingly reoccuring over and over at various points in time. Fans want to unfairly point the finger at Clara and give her the blame but it's the Doctor who they should be focusing on. I think most don't like the arc because they think it gives to much importance to Clara at the end and how she has to go back through his timestream to save his past selves, if it were any other companion in her place, Rose, Donna or Amy say, would they still be so upset by it? Probably not. I can see though why people don't like her coming back in Hell Bent since it seems to not only cheat her death, but also seems to have her not face the consequences of her actions which lead to her death since she gets to continue traveling around the Universe in her own Tardis. I'm not a hater of Hell Bent, in fact, in the scene when the Doctor says he would remember Clara instanly if he saw her again, and her turning away holding back tears realizing that he really does not remember her anymore, is heartbreaking to me. Hopefully, in years to come, she will be looked back upon more fondly by some of the fandom. As for if the Doctor should ever have romantic relationships with his/their companions, I am kind of against that notion for a practical, and logical reason. The Doctor is basically immortal, even more so now if the Timeless Child story arc continues to be true. Their tragedy is their outliving everyone. That's why I never thought it right that the Doctor could ever have a romantic relationship with a companion, they couldn't stand seeing them grow old and die before their eyes... again, and again, and again. It's not something they could ever do. I know the show has often highlighted the flirtations between the Doctor and some of the companions, and it's understandable from their point of view (they see him/her as being young when in fact he's/she's not, being thousands of years old), but for the Doctor, that can never be. Whether they are asexual, or not, has no bearing to it I think. They did have a family in the past on Gallifrey, they obviously had a spouse, had at least one child and then their granddaughter Susan,. So why should they be asexual now all of a sudden? It makes sense that they don't have relationships with humans, or an any other mortal species, simply because they would always outlive them. If it was with another Timelord instead, like River was in part, then that's different, but I don't think the show would ever allow the Doctor to have a permanent relationship, that would take away from what makes the Doctor unique, as well as upseting the rapport that they would have with their companions which is natrual, and intregal to the core of the show. The Timeless Child... like Elly, I'll have to wait and see how that plays out before I pass final judgement on that one. Good list! 👍
My problem with Clara is that the show became "The Adventures of Clara Oswald", and the Doctor was reduced to being her sidekick, which did a great disservice to Peter Capaldi, who was one of, if not the best, Doctor of all. At least he was given Heaven Sent, in which he gave one of the most amazing one-man performances of all time. As far as romantic entanglements with his companions, after giving it some thought, I realized (to my own surprise, I must admit) that my favorite relationships were Donna and Ten, and Bill and Twelve. There was no romance involved in either one, just true friendship, which is still a form of love anyway.
Everyone seems to forget Susan Foreman is the doctor’s biological grand daughter, the doctor had to have met someone to have Susan’s mother/father(we don’t know which one is related to the doctor)
I think the Doctor made a very Galifreyan decision regarding genociding the Daleks. When in doubt, observe. Temporize, even. Well, given what happened to Adric, don't you think that would have been a really good reason to develop that technique? The Doctor didn't do it because he hadn't invented and practiced it yet. Also, if the Doctor had, the actor still would have wanted another job.
I'm right there with you Ellie. I will also always defend River Song as a love interest. One of the reasons I think it worked was because the Doctor saw her first at the end of her life and at the end of their relationship. She was proof that it was possible for Ten, who is still getting over Rose, to have an actual, fully realized relationship. Since he got that assurance first, he was able to let his guard down over the next couple centuries, let her in, and let himself fall. I love her Big Finish stories too, where it's very evident just how unconditionally she loves this person she married when she was relatively young in her timeline. No matter which Doctor she encounters, they're still her spouse and she loves every version she meets. She's one of the only people who really understand the concept of "They're all the same person." With the other companions, it seemed like they were more romantically inclined toward a specific body of the Doctor's. Even with Rose, I felt like she didn't fully see him as a romantic interest until Ten came along. That's when she fully dropped Mickey. River also didn't have the kind of breakdowns Rose and Clara had when the Doctor regenerated. Once she realized who Twelve was, it was flirty business as usual and a question about how he managed to get more faces outside the standard regeneration cycle. Like you said, her purpose was partially to be a love interest instead of being a companion who happened to fall in love with the Doctor, so it worked more smoothly. And with her being older (both with the actress being Alex Kingston and the story giving her an augmented life span), it felt more right for the 900-2000 year old Doctor instead of having his much younger companions falling in love with him.
I remember when the controversy around series 12 cropped up, and people began comparing it to when Adrick died in earth shock. I always thought of it, as being like when Spider-Man saves, Mary Jane Watson, following the death of Gwen Stacy. Spider-Man tried to save Gwen, and but failed. And so Peter Parker spent years reliving that situation and trying to figure out what he could’ve done differently or what he could’ve done better in order to save her. And then, when a similar situation cropped up with Mary Jane Watson, he had the opportunity to do things correctly the second time. it’s the same thing with the Doctor here. After Adrick died, he would’ve spent centuries trying to figure out what he could’ve done differently and how he could’ve saved his friend. So by the time, the 13th Doctor rolled around, she was ready. She knew what to do because she had done it incorrectly once before.
I, personally, have always seen the doctor as ace, or at least on the ace spectrum. However, that doesn't mean they're aromantic as well. They have had many well-built romantic relationships, like Rouge and 15, and Rose and 9/10, but anything other than romantic feels off.
In regards to Adrics fate, there is an argument to be made that the reason the Doctor is able to save characters from certain death now and not back then was because the doctor learnt from that failure going forward. They could save Adric back then and has since vowed never to let that kind of fate occur again. The doctor learns from their mistakes too after all and figuring out how to save everyone is something they’d dedicate themselves to following such a loss.
You got some info on The Timeless Child wrong: The Doctor is still a Time Lord, always has been - was made one when used as a agent for Division and then attended the Academy again in their current “The Doctor” life. The Doctor isn’t native to Gallifrey but IS a Time Lord - as that’s a title/role and not a species. “What was the point of 11’s new regeneration cycle in The Time of The Doctor”, well that’s because Tecteun limited their regenerations to 13 per cycle just like any other Time Lord - the Doctor used to have unlimited regens but when Tecteun, Omega and Rassilon were founding the Time Lords using The Timeless Child’s DNA they created the 13 lives rule. Most likely away to keep all other Time Lords from outliving them. all of this is explained in s12.10 and it’s not that hard to understand.
Nowhere in The Timeless Children is it stated that the Doctor/The Timeless Child has a regeneration limit (the Master says that "future generations" of Citadel dwellers were given a limit, but doesn't mention the Child). In fact, considering that we see the Child regenerate over and over again while strapped to that chair, it seems like they could keep going as long as they like. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it can be interpreted either way.
It became species/race in the Timeless Children episode. The Shobogans (native Gallifreyans) altered their DNA from the child, making themselves effectively into another race, a race they decided to call Timelords. They basically altered their own DNA to match that of the child, so the title of that episode being in plural refers to them, they made themselves into "Timeless Children", which essentially is, what they call the child, because they have no idea what race it belongs to. The Timelords = Timeless Children. Anyway I agree with the rest, they limited the Doctor as well and thus 11th's regeneration had to be resupplied with another cycle in Time of the Doctor.
@@danthemeegs8751 Sure it doesn't mention, but there's lots of stuff, that wasn't mentioned, we can't depend on everything being mentioned or shown directly. They also used the Chameleon Arch on the Doctor to not only erase memories, but also to limit regenerations, altering the Doctor's/Timeless Child's physiology to the standard of the Timelord physiology with the limit in place. It makes perfect sense, since the Doctor was a usefull asset to the Division, but any difference standing out would rise unwanted questions, making the Doctor a completely ordinary Timelord would be the most logical move.
I actually appreciated The Timeless Child as being the very best of the 13th's stories. Going back to Classic Who, there were already some internal inconsistencies that could only be resolved if The Doctor had, at a minimum, at least one pre-Hartnell set regenerations. We know, again from Classic Who, that before he started calling himself The Doctor, he was known as Theta Sigma. We even get a Theta Sigma Easter egg in the penultimate episode of Matt Smith's first season (on the cliff face - the first line was "hello sweetie" with the 2nd line being temporal coordinates that started with the Greek letters Theta Sigma.) So my head Canon called this extra set of regenerations that had to exist to make the stories work the Theta Sigma era. While I wasn't thrilled with pretty much anything about the 13th's run - not Jodie's fault. She did an amazing job with the steaming piles of crap that they called stories. I was very glad to see a show runner take the time to resolve all these dangling plot threads - some of which were introduced in the 80s.
With the masters timeliness never quite being fully revealed there is a theory that the sacha master incarnation is before missy and even before simm so the fact that he is villainous again would make sense
The Dalek are massively overused there was a time when a Dalek story was something to look forward to, now they have become a crutch for the writers when they have run out of creative juice. you can almost see a group of desperate worn out looking people sitting around a table. "Ok guy someone has to have an Idea for the next episode?" they look at each other study the papers in front of them "Sorry." throwing their hands up in the air the show runner in exasperation say "Fine give them a Dalek episode that'll keep them happy" This has lead the Daleks and to a lesser extent the Cybermen suffering some of the worst written stories and yes I am looking at you famous writer who thought making the Cybermen into the Borg made them scarier. Now the minute the Daleks show up you take your head in your hands in the knowledge that this is going to be shite lets hope it will at least be entreating. As far as the Master in the current Doctor Who while Missy can hold her head up high, the other two make Dick Dastardly look like professor Moriaty. They chew the scenery like Jeremy Irons in the Dungeons and Dragons movie their plans were for the most part were both petty and stupid. So the fact that the progenitor of the Timelords murdered dozens of children just to gain a longer life is fine?
The easiest way to save Adric would be to repair the console and, sometime in the future, think, "adric!" Then go back in time, rescue Adric and return him to his home with no one the wiser.
6th Doctor and Evelyn are probably my favourite Tardis duo. Maybe tied with 7th and Ace. But he's definitely much better or at least we see much more of his personality in the audio stories. Jubilee is a must-listen to anyone who enjoyed 2005s "Dalek". Can't really go wrong with any Evelyn episode, I don't remember disliking any of her episodes, she's so great at calling out the Doctor's grumpier inclinations and it's clear how much the Doctor likes her.
I have so much respect for Colin Baker. I'm saddened that things didn't work out with him as The Doctor sense it was a roll he was very much interested in.
My thoughts on the master go along the lines that John Sim didn't regenerate into Michelle Gomez, but into Sacha Dhawan. Since Missy had know idea how she regenerated, it allows for the typical madness to run out in this series but still allows the redemtion arc. As for the Timeless children, my feeling on regeneration is that it requires the timelord in question to be have been in close proximaty to the time vortex recently, like the untempered schisim on Galifrey or in a Tardis radiating artron energy. I mean how often have we seen the doctor regenerate outside of the Tardis? Capalldi left the tardis mid-regeneration to try and stop it, heavily implying my theory is correct. Yes River regenerated without a Tardis nearby, but to be fair nothing about river makes sense at that point.
Honestly the Timeless Child thing felt like a slap in the face to anyone who is familiar with Doctor Who lore. Also how The Master wiped out the Time Lords with seemingly minimal effort making them seem kinda pathetic. During 13's run I really couldn't get that invested in what was going on.
"I don't want to go" line from David was a realization for me especially after seeing the coming doctors, although it's the same soul the personalities are different which means technically he died, he didn't want his individual personality to die and be replaced by a new personality /individual
The "no hanky-panky aboard the TARDIS" rule emerged during Jon Pertwee's era. However, it was generally joked that the 3rd Doctor and Liz Shaw's relationship was all professional, while most likely the more open (probable party girl) Jo Grant and the Doctor probably were going at it like bunnies between adventures... 😉
We won't be doing a standalone video for Bernard, but we do have a tribute in article form titled "Doctor Who: 7 Most Memorable Moments Of Wilfred Mott". Sean and Ellie also shared their thoughts on Twitter. The problem with a standalone video would be that we would set a precedent - as in, people would start asking where the video is every time an actor dies, and that's not something we want to start doing.
@@danthemeegs8751 Why do you see a problem with doing occasional tributes to cherished actors who gave us so much over the decades (Cribbins started with DW in 1965.) You did a beautiful tribute one week ago for Star Trek's Nichelle Nichols. You have a great channel and I don't presume to instruct. It's just disappointing.
“It explores the chances of opening up the Doctor’s past” But that’s the point, it shouldn’t of been a gateway for answers. It’s the Doctor Plus it more interesting that the doctor makes him/herself upwards by doing right instead of chosen to do so
Tbf The Doctor IS a Time Lord. That's never been in question - She just may not be a native Gallifrayan. I like The Timeless Child arch - I think it adds more than it takes away.
I think the thing about the doctor having relations with his companions is the power dynamic will never be even. The way the companions look up to him as an authority and idolize him like a god.
Colin Baker was my favourite Doctor as a kid and to this day, along with the enhancement of his Big Finish presence, he remains my favourite Classic Doctor. I personally think his run was one of the strongest and he doesn’t have a single story that I’ll skip past. Big Finish just made him even more complex and loveable than he already was. I know the reasons for peoples animosity but I just don’t get it. As Ellie says regarding the timeless child: so what? The Doctor can often be erratic after a regeneration so crazy mad stuff can happen. He’s haughty and arrogant: they all were to a degree, especially the first. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion but I just don’t think it warrants such an aggressive condemnation based on his TV run. I loved it and still do; and his outfit is AWESOME! All that colour! AMAZING! 🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🤩🥰🤯🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈
Before I watch this, looking at the thumb nail, I get it. My wife is a Whovian, and I'm at the moment, limited to Eccelston onwards - and I swear I can foresee, "oh here comes the cyberman" and, "I wonder what's in there? A dalek? Oh, there they are again." 😂
I agree the timeless child has the potential to be a good thing. As stated the loose ends need to be tied and things need to be explained a bit more. I like that it gives the ability to expand the core story further however. The fact the the doctor is different than the time lords, the fact he stole a tardis and ran away, the fact the time lord hierarchy always treated the doctor like a tool but were fearful of the doctor. These plots are able to be answered while opening up and infinite amount of story from pre-first doctor. It also helps explain why the doctor was quiet rude to humans in the first episodes, yet now the doctor only talks about how remarkable humans can be.
Hot take: The reason Clara overshadowed Amy was because Amy was an abhorrent companion. Rory was better, Martha was better, Rose was better (Donna was equally bad). I'd really like to know why Ellie likes River Song so much though. Nearly every episode with her (save The Library which I like overall, NOT because of RS' death, which was also heart-rending) was such a slog to get through. (Bonus hot take: She was quite good in The Time Of Angels which was otherwise ruined by "The image of an Angel...")
Did Ellie just call Tennant the best Doctor of all time? She says she doesn't have a lot of knowledge of the classic show. Clearly, if she thinks Tennant is the best Doctor. Oh and the plot of the Timeless Child was nonsense.
On the Adric point. Maybe the Fifth Doctor never thought of that sort of maneuver. It wasn't in the normal Time Lord playbook, and it just didn't come to his mind. But maybe having centuries to think about how he might've been able to save Adric (like how he had all that time to think about saving River Song) he one day thought of this little strategy. Or maybe he thought of it during the Time War, and used it a few times during that. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on these events you can think of so many different ideas that you wouldn't have thought of then because you didn't have the time or experience.
I always imagined that the master’s newest incarnation was due to… um “timey wimey.” Simm’s version was very set on not turning out like Missy so I presumed when he regenerated his conscious will impacted it so that he became someone else. Of course this would seemingly alter the doctor’s/show’s history but I was like eh “time wimey” it somehow still happened. Not that logical but it’s dr who so I just went with this theory.
I always thought that the newest master was actually in between Simm and Missy. We never actually see Simm regenerate into Missy, or Missy into the current master wobbly wobbly timey wimey
"It's not a season of Doctor Who without an appearance of the Daleks" is kinda like "it wouldn't have been a season of Star Trek: The Next Generation without an appearance of Q".
Jo Martin can be a timelord from a different universe. They can run with that if they want, but the Timeless Child storyline doesn't do it for me. Chibnall could've had a good run with Jodie if he didn't want to get all preachy and change the basis of the whole show on a whim. Sure.. introduce multiverses and new worlds to explore, new companions and such... but don't mess with the foundation of the show, destroy over half the universe, and then just move on as if nothing happened. I'd be happy if it all ended up as a fever dream from 12th's regeneration (but then you leave Jodie's Doctor in some sort of "limbo" where she's not counted). Somehow they need to keep Jodie's Doctor as 13 yet do away with all that Timeless Child crap and get back to having fun and exploring the universe (with a little drama thrown in to keep the waterworks flowing every so often). 😁
Remember that at the end of Genesis Of The Daleks, the Daleks were trapped in their bunker, for a long time, instead of rampaging through the universe straight away, so history is changed anyway.
This is a really weird video for me to watch- but will explain. First, I have watched pretty much every Doctor Who story up to about the middle of Capaldi's time. This includes classic Who. However, it is very clear that the video would be nothing but spoilers for me. I simply *do not remember* most of the New Who stories, not even the big ones. The classic ones I remember really well, but have retained almost nothing about New Who. I find this really weird, as I thoroughly enjoyed the New Who I watched (much of it surpassing, for me, anything in the Classic Who era), but for some reason I simply haven't remembered it. A few stories do stand out, but most of it has gone. I must be getting old... but at least it does suggest I'll be able to watch it all again, and experience it for the "first" time. :).. if I ever find the time. What I need is a time machine...
I would argue that New-Who (21st Century) and Classic Who (20th Century) are two seperate shows and have independent continuities. New-Who is inspired by Classic Who but events in New Who stories do NOT retcon events in Classic Who.
@@qwertyrobbo101 Think about it like the Stargate franchise. There's the original movie from 1994, then they made a series containing 10 seasons and few spinoffs. The series sometimes contradicts the original movie, but there's alternate realities and stuff, that can easily explain, why the actors look different from the movie, why the main bad guy is from a different species (retconned to be the same species, but he still looks different in the movie, so there you go) and other stuff. Basically the events from the movie happened, but people can imagine them being in an alternate reality, so all the events are valid, but with different looking characters of the same names, different looking bad guy species and so on. Or take Marvel's Cinematic Univrse and Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. series as another example. Every major eveent from the Marvel movies (Avengers and co.) happened in the later series, but non of the events from the series was ever mentioned in any major Marvel movie. In conclusion the AoS series takes place in an alternate reality, which is almost identical with the main MCU movies, but Coulson was resurrected and works as the head of a team of special operation agents for SHIELD. To put it in another perspective AoS isn't canon to MCU, while MCU is canon to AoS. So you could pretend, that ClassicWho is canon to NuWho, but NuWho not being canon to ClassicWho. Events from Classic are reflected in NuWho, but it doesn't work the other way 'round, like Timeless Children still doesn't change the 50 years old history.
I know this is a year old but, can WhoCulture go back to this video format more often? It’s great when we can see who is talking and them being more than a disembodied voice. Love WhoCulture!
9:32 I feel like The Daleks need there own spin-off & have them focus on there war campaign against all life forms. They’ve tried this before Terry nation the creator of the Daleks wrote a pilot that was going to be sold to US TV but it never fell through it was released has a big finish audio drama but that’s it. Imagine a Dalek series but without the doctor to save the day
maybe the reason the doctor was able to save jake was because after adric he had dedicated some time to have a plan to save the person if a similar situation happened.
Didn't hate the Timeless Child reveal, but I felt revealing it was the Doctor was a bit lazy. In my opinion, it should have been their granddaughter, Susan. That would have been a perfect explanation on why they left Gallifrey. To protect Susan. Also, I didn't much like the Cyberlords. Gallifrey's survival was such an important thing, and now it's dead again.
Apologies for the gap between videos, forgive us! Hope you enjoy the video ♥
I AM THE ONCOMING STORM AND I DO NOT FORGIVE YOU!!! xD
This things happen
Your not forgiven.
she has a scripted point of view
I IM TALKING......
narr it fine
5 watched Adric die and couldn't do anything about it. he then had 8 regenerations to think about what he could have done differently. It's not a plot hole, it's character growth.
*_Exactly!_*
just because they're the Doctor doesn't mean they Automatically know how to do _Everything_ right off the bat. Especially when it's in a pressured moment like that.
Tbh - i just think it's nothing more than bad writing during the Chibnall era
They didn't want to kill a character - so they made some lazy wibbly-wobbly plot convenience
I was literally going to post this myself! Glad I'm not the only one. It's a shame they couldn't have put some reference to Adric in Praxius to better clear this up - wouldn't need to be anything explicit, just the Doctor muttering "Never again!" or something before performing the rescue. Long time fans would know what she was getting at, but for those unaware it would go over their heads
Thought the same
Would argue 4 considering how he saved Harkness in the 2nd gasmask child episode
David Tennant's 'fairwell' might have been slightly over-indulgent, but the final goodbye from Wilfred and his salute was one of the most heartwrenching moments in the whole show
Wells are always unfair, though. That's why they make people fall into them so much.
I cried when Wilfred died last week
You've mispronounced farewell
@@benmiller3252 yeah I realised
I seem to be the only one who thinks David Tennants interpretation of The Doctor was the least engaging of the New Who era.
The focus on his relationship with Rose Tyler, and later the interaction with Martha Jones marked a pasage where it was all about making the Doctor invincible, and that was a journey these 'romantic' companions took us on. Of course as viewer we always knew the Doctor would win out because of his plot armour, but this period marked a point where that plot armour became an in storyline fact and that was a blunder the New Era has never fully recovered from. Some of Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi's best performances notwtihstanding
Like over-use of the sonic screwdriver the moments when the Doctor can say - ''I'm the Doctor so just surrender now'' - quickly became a deus ex machina for lazy writing and paper think stories.
Seeing Bernard Cribbins was heartbreaking. For those who don't know, he passed away a few days ago. He was a very special man and an outstanding actor. RIP Bernard, thanks for the memories.
💙💙
The UK's favourite uncle, for more than 1 generation
Weeks ago actually
And a man who wrote a biliant song about a piano failing to be moved.
@@danthemeegs8751 💙💙💙
A couple of things...
I've always believed that Sacha's Master was actually an incarnation that pre-dates the Gomez version, maybe Simms' as well. His plans as always way over the top and convoluted, much like Delgado's and Ainley's. Given we've only seen half a dozen versions of the character from at least two different regen cycles, it is possible the latest version is in fact an earlier one.
I think the main problem with Five rescuing Adric was that, even without the damaged console, the TARDIS was still unreliable at best, and that any attempt to fly it with such precision would likely have endangered everyone.
also something to consider is that of Course the Thirteenth Doctor could do it. that does Not mean the doctor in their Earlier form would have known how to. it could have been that they learned From that failure and gained a knowledge they didn't possess in the earlier gen. i mean really, surely even the good Doctor has to learn stuff to be able to do it. they may have had to revisit that period over and over again to sort out How to do it in the later time period.
then again, maybe it's true that they just din wanna. XD
I actually thought that about Sacha's Master, too. It seemed to make sense with all the other confusing timey-wimey stuff going on with 13 and their past. Of course, I also thought Missy was really and truly dead, so I don't know if I was just clinging to that idea too hard.
@@kstormgeistgem461 I felt the same way about him saving Adrik.
I believed the same originally, but the producers have said Sacha's Master is after Missy.
@@gordonhotchkiss646 Do you have a source for that? Not that I doubt your word, I was just hoping otherwise, else what was the point of Missy's redemption arc? Or was that simply another case of Chibnall not giving a damn about what had come before?
I feel that one villain who has been way overused is Davros. He was killed by his own creations at the end of Genesis Of The Daleks, which was a fitting punishment. But he's taken on this kind of god-like status, immortal, without any explanation. He was simply a Kaled scientist, and I tend to think that the Kaleds and the Thals were just future humans who had forgotten that their distant ancestors had come from Earth. He had no special powers like regeneration. The writers seem to think that, "Oh, he's a great villain, let's bring him back again," but he should really have stayed dead.
Or at least given something of a rationale for his constant returns. Hell, I would have accepted "He had clones of himself ready to go."
I'm so glad to see Ellie giving her own opinions and being herself more. The scripts always make her sound b----y and nitpicky, but hearing her tell how she really feels in her own voice instead of the "announcer" voice makes her do much more likable and relatable.
Absolutely agree. Such a likable personality that's really started to shine through on more recent videos.
When the newest Doctor was announced she was in the impromptu WhoCulture video talking about it, and the comments about her were so much more positive than on her previous, purely scripted vids. I'm wondering whether someone there realised this and she's been given a bit more freedom when recording.
Very engaging vid from Ellie… there’s still a script credit but her delivery is wonderfully natural. Kudos for admitting to not knowing enough to comment on Classic era too.
While I disagree with your description of how the scripts present her, I do agree with the assessment of her personal experience adding to the quality.
Love Ellie & you are right it was good to hear her actual points of views
I do agree with the doctor being romantically en loved with his companions feels really awkward. It worked with Rose and of course River song. Otherwise, it feels very forced and cring worthy.
It only worked with River in my opinion, genuinely sweet to watch. Also who else was he entangled with? I am not aware of anyone else.
I loved Martha's love for him. It was so good watching him pretending she was Rose. So heartbreaking.
I didn't think it worked with Rose too much tbh. I found it a bit creepy given how young and clueless she was, plus the whole Mickey thing. It worked better with River Song as she was more on the Doctor's level rather than a child barely out of high school.
See I always felt that after rose it was more like the love a father has for their child vs a romantic partner. Like he's proud of their lives and even really accepts rory. Idk just my take
Colin Baker is criminally underrated! Big finish helps his character but his TV series had some good points and the 6th doctor himself was brilliant after the attack of the cybermen.
I'd say the whole Trial of A Time Lord is a much watch but I would also rate that as one of my fave Classic Who stories.
For my money the Timeless Child should have been Susan. And like you could still have had the whole previous regenerations thing like maybe the doctor really ran away to save susan from the experiments, but was killed on their last regen in the process and Susan transfering new set of regenerations from her unlimited knocked out the doctor's memory of past regenerations and they remembered it all happening as the Hartnel doc
In an interview with DWM (Doctor Who Magazine) interview, Chibnall stated that the Timeless Child was meant to render the Doctor origin-less and increase the potential of storytelling for the writers. In addition, he doesn't mind if future writers ditch the retcon, so feel free to ignore it to your heart's content.
Nice idea, certainly the best rewrite I’ve seen so far.
This is *so* much better than what we were given on screen! It lets us keep the best bits (e.g. Jo Martin's excellent fugitive Doctor) while ditching the "Doctor = god" nonsense. It would also give Susan the proper respect she deserves as well as lending a nice origin story for her that makes sense of the Doctor/Susan relationship and his protectiveness towards her.
OMG thats a great idea.
@@horrorstew3577 rtd? you mean chibnall since he introduced that timeless child sh!t.
Where the companion farewell of the Tennent doctor is concerned. I think it makes sense character wise, since this doctor had the most companions at least in new who, but also was the most emotionally connected to the companions too. So seeing him go back to each of his companions to say farewell fits his character, while also seeing how some of those companions end up even one off ones feels consistent an nice.
The problem with the Daleks is, they haven't been used _properly._ They're the greatest enemy so the story has to be big, like this time could be the end of The Doctor.
You shouldn't be able to see it coming and you can't find out its them immediately. There has to be a big reveal like in Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways or Army of Ghosts.
The Stolen Earth worked despite giving the game away in the beginning because it was such a diabolical scheme, Davros made it worse by making The Doctor see that he's not really the good guy and then you had an already insane Dalek go insane.
Both Boom Town for Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways or Army of Ghosts spoiled the Daleks in the Next Time Trailer.
I also want to see them be the cause of a regeneration for real. Like in stolen earth but a proper regen. Idk if that happened in classic who but we are yet to see it for real in new who and we are supposed to believe they are the most formidable opponent. There has to be a consequence or we stop believing. Same idea with the cybermen. Like I don’t want to see a companion die but we may need to see a conversion to believe in their strngth in the near future. Or someone close like when other universe Jackie was converted. That was a good way to show no one was exempt
@@marionbaggins I always skipped the "next time" to avoid this and was so happy when "The Stolen Earth" didn't include one
@@WarLordArtos Good thing you did, because most people don't!!! I forgot Stolen Earth didn't have one...
Yeah if I’m binge watching I will skip next times too
The other difference between Adric and later cases was that the freighter was “skipping time warps”, making it impossible to land on because “there’s nothing to lock onto”. So even before the Tardis console was damaged, he couldn’t go back for Adric.
This! Thank you, it’s literally explained in the story!
Adric a young gay actor given the chance of a lifetime. Love you Mathew.
I am not familiar with the classic who to know that but it makes sense. I have said that maybe it was a learning experience for the doctor. Like he could have been thinking all these years of how he could have saved him so when the situation came up again he had a plan. Everyone learns thru experience, even the doctor. And we have learned Chibnal isn’t a good show runner for the doctor so we went back to RTD. See we all learn😊
What was the point of Eleven's new regeneration cycle if the Doctor really had infinite regenerations? If the information about the Timeless Child had been buried so deeply within the Matrix as the Master had suggested, then they almost certainly didn't know the Doctor was the Timeless Child and believed, as he himself did, that he had come to the end of his final incarnation.
U can just easily say after division they found a way to put a limit on his/her regenerations when they wanted to hide there tracks
The Timeless child was so convoluted that I just gave up on it.
I really liked how she puts her own opinion across. Seems genuine and is explained well
The Dinosaur ending "meteor strike" was a fixed moment in time. It could not be changed without massive paradox.
IN THE FOREST OF THE NIGHT, SEEMS TO BE TOLD FROM THE CHILDREN'S VIEW
THE DOCTOR IS A BACK GROUND CHARACTER
This is something I'd put in the Timeless Child thing. First, time lords, when given the power to regenerate, had a soft limit of 12 regenerations imposed on them. They could petition for more, or even after death,t hey could be resurrected, with a new set. Early on, the Doctor showed a propensity to not work well with other time lords and would run off on their own. So, when the Doctor was recaptured, the doctor had this limit imposed on them (after a mind wipe), to force the Doctor to return to Gallifrey for a reset (and obligatory mind wipe). So the cycle began. 13 lives, either returns to Gallifrey or turns to moosh (Like the Master in The Deadly Assassin, and in the TV movie), and gets retrieved, gets a new set or regenerations, and gets a mind wipe, then goes on their way. That could mean the Doctor might have had a different name during parts of their lives, which could mean some of the Doctor's friends, even their own parents, could be the Doctor. Even a future villain could be the Doctor in a previous life set.
I love Clara Oswald, but I wanted to have Victorian Clara as his companion. That said, Clara's hoop dress would've been a problem for Clara being able to move freely in her adventures in the TARDIS. The Timeless Child was the main reason the Doctor Who show only managed 2 million viewers worldwide, by Chibnall's Sea Devils special.
Not having Victorian Clara was quite a late change too, according to Neil Gaiman
The second Doctor had a Victorian companion, Victoria Waterman, whose scientist father was killed after being used by the Daleks. She soon stopped wearing her era's clothes, and ended up living in the twentieth century.
@@julianaylor4351 Do you know whether that Troughton episode is available to watch? Most of Patrick's episodes were wiped by the BBC.
@@patrickmusson4571 Some of the wiped Troughton episodes have been reconstructed as cartoons, using the original dialogue recordings, and are available to watch, on DVD, Blu-ray or in some cases they may be being streamed by someone. The same goes for some of the Hartnell episodes, where the dialogue recordings still exist.
@@julianaylor4351 I guess it shows how relatively inexpensive it is to retain audio recording than bulky video tapes or film stock. What a shame that such an eclectic performance such as Troughton's fell victim to the BBC's penny-pinching. They didn't realize what a goldmine those early episodes would be in the future. I just hope I can find out WHO is streaming those animated episodes and which entity is selling the DVD/BluRays.
The Daleks haven’t been over used for me they’ve just been underused by Moffat and Chibnall. Daleks were back every single series with RTD and yet they shocked us each time, we felt scared each time. Even to this day you can still pick up on the sheer terror of the Daleks slowly and unstoppably advancing through satellite 5. Being an actual threat and killing people we liked.
Then the reveal of the daleks in army of ghosts STILL holds up. Series 4 finale was high stakes, the entire world at threat, everyone we love comes back and we get consequences, a companion is going to die, we’ve got to say goodbye to Donna, we have Davros, all these companions etc. it’s brilliant.
What started to be a problem was Moffats use of the Daleks. He really watered them down, made them into villains who stand around in the background and don’t do anything, Moffat thought having daleks just…there is enough to be a threat. They’re not, just like RTD you actually have to have them do something. Not just shove hundreds of cgi daleks onto the screen and think ‘job done, that’ll scare everyone’.
Just think about it, in every Dalek story Moffat has written can anybody tell me something that the daleks ACTUALLY do? (Into the Dalek is the only episode in moffats entire era where the daleks are a threat and it’s not written by Moffat). Moffat just made exterminations pointless, easily escapable by teleport and sonic screwdriver, and had a whole episode about the time war where the daleks exterminate absolutely nobody.
The only people Moffat exterminates on screen in his entire era are two background Movellans in series 10, the Dalek then goes on to practice his storm trooper aim on nardole.
Chibnall on the other hand brought back the death, he brought back the threat of the daleks, but his scattering of awful dialogue, out of place jokes and poor delivery of script just delegitimize all the right stuff he’s doing in having the daleks actually kill people. But then again he fails on being able to give any of his characters characterization so even though he’s killing people, we don’t CARE that he’s killing people.
So RTD era: very good at writing Daleks
Moffat: waters down daleks into a non threat
Chibnall: makes daleks threatening but no characterization or people we care about on screen cancels any of this out
That's a very interesting point. But we haven't seen the Daleks in the actual series for 7 years.
@@benmiller3252 what do you mean?
@@obiwankenobi687 it's complicated to explain. They have only appeared in the New year's Day Specials. As for the actual show they haven't been in it for 7 years
@@benmiller3252 you mean they haven’t had a proper episode dedicated to them for 7 years outside of the New Years specials? Just showing up as cameos you mean
@@obiwankenobi687 you could say that
In Earthshock's case, part of the reason the Doctor's couldn't get on the freighter was that due to the freighter travelling back through time, its coordinates kept changing and the Cyberman damaging the console was another reason on top of that why he couldn't save Adric
@@horrorstew3577 The freighter crashing into the Earth is the fixed point but is Adric being on the freighter part of that fixed point? If necessary swap Adric with an equivalent mass so the same amount of mass hits the Earth.
@@Tim.Stotelmeyer Yes, it is a fixed point for Adric as well. It changes the parallel universe Gallifrey that we first saw him on, and is the Gallifrey Romana goes to, since Adric is a family member of one of the alternate founders of Time Lord society in that parallel universe.
It could also affect the entire premise of the Time War, since the Daleks may get their hands on different Time Lord tech that is only unique to that dimension. That would have meant the Time War is mutli dimensional in addition to temporal in nature.
To me when the show says the Doctor has unlimited regenerations, then the doctor has unlimited regenerations all we know is the timeless child had the ability to regenerate, we don’t know how many times. The timeless child was then chameleon arched and that essence was put in the fobwatch. Then the body was given 12 regenerations.
Fully agree on the Daleks...I liked the WWII versions for a more original re-introduction of them
Again Big Finish did a whole series on what may have happened if the Doctor had touched those wires... It is a good listen....
Rest in peace wilfred, would've loved to see you in the 60th
But we don’t know where missy is in the master regeneration Sasha could be before her or later in the regeneration cycle
As much as I like Sacha Dhawans master, it feels like a slap in the face to have the master come back as a psychotic villain again after such a fantastic performance from Michelle Gomez and having missy become a companion to the doctor.
I’m all for the master coming back and them not explaining how because it adds to the mystery, but when you’re going to have a huge character shift like that, I feel like it needs to be addressed in the show, especially when Sachas master was so much more bent on killing the doctor then any other nu who incarnation
The Jo Martin Doctor makes sense if she fits in between the Patrick Troughton Doctor and the Jon Pertwee Doctor. At the end of "The War Games" the Time Lords forced the second doctor to start to regenerate but we the viewer do not get to see regeneration finish with the actor swap. Perfect place to slip in the Jo Martin Doctor.
The Doctor having unlimited number of regenerations could be known to just Tecteun. The rest of the Time Lords including the Doctor would think he was a normal Time Lord with 12 regenerations. That keeps the Time Lords giving the Doctor another set of regenerations in "The Time of the Doctor" intact because they thought he had only 12 regenerations.
It's heavilly implied, that they also altered the Doctor's physiology, most likely through the chameleon arch thing like 10th did in Human nature, according to the glitches in the Matrix, referred to as the "island images" (the ones about that police guy, who fell down the cliff, but didn't die, the cover story for what happened to the Timeless Child), the memory wipe at the end is done with a pain inducing device, just like in 10th Doctor's case. It links perfectly. Perhaps memory wipe wasn't the only thing they did to the TC/Doctor.
I think one of the things that alot of us missed the first time was that just like Timelords altered their DNA to be able to regenerate, they might have altered the Doctor's DNA to memory wipe after 12 regenerations. Thus, the added regenerations given were so he would go on without losing who he was and starting all over again. Just a thought -
13 even says ‘did they reset me back to a child?’ The answer is of course “yes”. Which they clearly did. When they’re finished with the timeless child, it’s reset back to a baby and grows up to be William Hartnell, he enters the timelord academy and gets the same regeneration limit as everyone else. The show then runs completely as normal with no interruptions or retcons or continuity issues from then on
@@obiwankenobi687 That was more or less my take as well. The 12th Doctor was originally supposed to die on Trenzalor and we saw in Turn Left that the Doctor could die so whatever the Timelords did when they "reset" them into Hartnell's Doctor obviously added a limiter to their regeneration ability. The only point about I'm not sure where I stand about 12th's death is whether the Timelords gave The Doctor an other set of 12 regeneration or just removed that limiter.
@@obiwankenobi687 thank you, YES! This, so very MUCH this! I've been saying this since the beginning!
@@MastarNinja 11th. Matt Smith's Doctor is 11th. 12th is Capaldi. Tennant's first regeneration (Meta-crisis event) doesn't count as a new Doctor, he just healed himself and the rest of the energy, while still spent, was sent to the nearest recepient, which was his hand, so he didn't have to change his body and face. That means he's just repaired 10th Doctor from that point on, not a whole new 11th, still the same old guy. Same face, same personality quirks, same incarnation, basically the same 10th Doctor.
@@Croftice1 matt smith is 12th. you forgot the war doctor
The Daleks being reduced to 1 episode every year but making them deadly and continuing that first narrative was the best thing for them, the 10th Doctor's era made them feel overused but still overpowered and ruthless and Moffat's tenure made them background villains that were about outsmarting The Doctor which never used to be the case. Someone else said about Chibnall making them threatening but again killed no main characters or their relatives; like the Scout Dalek having the perfect moment to kill Ryan's dad which would've brought more character dev to him and *Eve of the Daleks* having secondary characters to kill over and over again with no real consequences really brought down the immersion factor for them .
It should be a rule that the Daleks have to kill a main character, that’s a good point
@@danthemeegs8751 YES!
Honestly the 12th doctor probably had the idea because of the fifth doctor it was one of those hindsight moments
even if the daleks are overused, CHARACTER OPTIONS ISNT MAKING ENOUGH BRONZE DALEK FIGURES
AGREED
Changing Doctor Who from male to female was the biggest controversy I can remember except possibly the Timeless Child.
Just a thought, suspend your disbelief kinda has a message worth listening to.
Six has always been my favourite
I'm totally a fan of the Sixth - was from when it first aired, and will always be. 🙂
I love Clara,bc she was so cute and smart and her story had so much content and twist and she was really something else ^^
WhoCulture needs an expert in the classic Doctor Who run because every time the talk about it, they all admit they do not know much about it if anything at all.
I'll volunteer.
I think sacha dewan master origin will be explore in whittaker final episode later this year being centenary special. It makes sense hence why he involved in that story
I cried SO hard when Adria died! It never had occurred to me that a companion could die. Got a few tears started just being reminded.
I don’t think Timeless Child is controversial at all- I feel like everyone agrees on disliking it
Yep it’s awful and needs retconning
no, i don't
Well I don't.
So far there has been absolutely nothing in the storyline that is contradictory with what we've been told about the Doctor before. The Doctor believed up to that point that they'd used so many regenerations, but that doesn't make it a fact, and it's quite clear that the Time Lords have the science to wipe people's memories (such as Jamie and Zoe). As such there's no reason why the Doctor hadn't lived previous lives before having their memory wiped and forcefully regenerated.
Likewise, there's no indication so far that the Doctor isn't a Time Lord, even if they're from a different universe even if they have infinite regenerations (Rassilon was possibly working on perpetual regeneration as a form of immortality (The Five Doctors)).
With all of this in mind there's absolutely no reason why The Timeless Child can't quite happily fit into the previous continuity.
After the Timeless Child Controversies one could follow with a Ouroboros storyline as in have the Doctor/the Time Lords create themselves. One could have the Time Lords from one universe send a child (The Doctor) to another universe to start the Time Lords again in that second universe. To make it more fun what if The Doctor's original universe is the one Rose Tyler is currently stuck in (Pete's World)?
(Sorry if some things below happen to be badly phrased. I'm not a native speaker of English, and I've had some doubts on the wording.)
Wasn't Pete's World rather another dimension of the universe we know than another universe entirely, though? The concepts might be pretty similar, but I don't think the last part of your comment would work in the series.
The "Ouroboros storyline" is a cool idea, though.
I've had a somewhat different idea while thinking about the whole of Classic and New Who (+ the expanded universe).
I won't share all the details but I started wondering whether or not the ability to regenerate could be the result of multiversal travel rather than something inherent to the Doctor's species regardless of what it truly is. In this scenario, the Doctor's species might not be Time Lords trying to start again in another universe. It could just as well be any humanoid species with no real knowledge in either other universes or even advanced temporal concepts.
What if regeneration was an ability you could obtain only through travelling from one universe to another, as a result of some unspecified, never-witnessed, not-necessarily-rational phenomena? I think I'd like that idea because I feel that it would restore part of the "magic" surrounding regenerations and Time Lords.
I've got a friend who has only watched New Who, and one day he said to me that before "The Timeless Children", he'd considered that the Time Lords had an almost magical relationship to time. I'd say their biology is too different from our own for us to even begin to imagine how it feels to FEEL time the way they do.
It's true that they can see possible futures and shape reality on a much larger scale than human could even imagine. Knowing that, I think I share my friend's view that there was initially something "exceptional" about the Time Lords being able to perceive Time in such formidable ways from birth, and them having regenerations keeping them from dying, making them prime observers of basically everything Life has to offer.
Having watched Classic Who, and in particular the Fifth Doctor's serial "Mawdryn Undead", I must say I'm a bit gutted that the Timeless Children has apparently approved the genetic nature of regeneration. It throws technical explanations in the plot whereas "Mawdryn Undead" was basically the story of non-Time Lords scientists trying to "crack the code" of regeneration for themselves, who were "doomed" for trying to replicate an ability that's also kind of burden. This story was meaningful, I think. Regeneration wasn't a burden to be shared with other species. Even Minyans (from the Fourth Doctor's serial Underworld) only got access to a technological, less perfect, and most importantly not innate form of regeneration from their early encounters with members of the early Time Lord society.
We've seen a lot of the "burden" element in New Who, every time the Doctor insists that they have lost many loved ones and have to keep leaving companions behind who should pursue lives of their own rather than stay by their side forever.
Having said that, I think it's kind of dumb to have made regeneration a genetic thing recently, because it just makes Tecteun more successful at cracking the "regeneration code" than the scientists from Mawdryn Undead were.
Things become even worse if you consider that we're told that she had a test subject with a conveniently infinite number of regenerations to experiment upon.
The scientists from Mawdryn Undead were on their own, with only stolen Time Lord technology at hand to try and develop regeneration for themselves. It's a bit of a shame to explore the genetic route again now with Tecteun, since her only merit is probably to have conducted experiments on a test subject that couldn't even die from her making mistakes on the way to success. It makes things appear like the only way for Tecteun to get it wrong would have been to fail the "regeneration transfer" within her own initial limited lifespan, and really, it annoys me greatly.
I mean, okay, maybe Tecteun was intelligent enough, and determined enough, to pull the "inter-species regeneration transfer" off. It doesn't change that it's a bad story, if one cares about what's been done in the past of the show. I could say "Tecteun was sort of a mother to the Doctor, and the two of them remained together, so... she used that to her own advantage. Fair enough." but really, that makes little sense to me.
Chibnall just did a "Mawdryn Undead" type of experiment, with none of the risks, and because there was no risk, it all went weirdly fine. Sure, people have said that Tecteun kind of tortured the Doctor and acted horrible with them both prior and after the regeneration experiments - the Division was created (much?) later - but, reading opinions online, I feel like no one else really realises how wrong it is. And I think it's sad, because one could legitimately complain about Chibnall's new take on Gallifrey's past.
I don't even mind the emphasis on gender change during the "Experiments sequence" - I confess I've had some issues with some of the social/political comments of this era, but Jodie as the Doctor was never the problem and I've come to like the era in spite of its huge flaws. It's just the fact that Tecteun succeeded in replicating regeneration through science that bothers me.
It's been made plausible, but it's still terrible.
If the original regeneration ability were a consequence of multiversal travel, I wouldn't mind the genetic transfer to the Gallifreyan population that much. I'd probably like the idea of a "traveller's DNA" being passed downed through generations of explorers and travel enthusiasts.
By the show's new standards, I'm not sure where all of this is going... but I'll stop writing for now.
I just wanted to share my idea, with some context and I had to share my opinion on a few things.
I hope you'll have found my post interesting.
The Timeless Child is not, in any way, disrespectful or a canon-breaker! And who says the Timelords that existed later even had a clue about this past? And at that point, they had tied the regeneration energy to the Heart of the TARDISes, so it's perfectly natural for River to have become the River we know and love.
On top of that, if the Martin Doctor was well before the Hartnell Doctor, as she calls their TARDIS a ship just like Hartnell does, and they did, as Whittaker's Doctor said, reset them back to a child, it makes perfect sense! They are reset back to an infant, they grow into that child that Clara visits and tells that fear is a superpower, and then grows up into the Doctor that begins with Hartnell.
I have had zero problem with that storyline at all. It fits, and fits well, and it doesn't break any canon at all. And it's fascinating, too! It doesn't make the Doctor a "chosen one," it just makes them an orphan. That isn't a problem. At all.
As for the rest, I didn't have a problem with any of what was supposed to be divisive on this list. Even the Adric part! The Doctor hadn't learned how to negotiate with the TARDIS enough at the time (remember, you don't fly her, you negotiate with her) for them to manage to lock on to a ship that was drifting all over the timeline as it hurtled towards Earth. That is, if it were ever possible, even for a full crew and a TARDIS that isn't 'knackered.'
I s'pose this is a good collection, but I just don't find any of it negative or divisive, IMO. _~shrug~_
I agree about your thoughts on the Timeless Child. I personally liked it as it was revealed, because it opened so many doors and so many possibilities for the show to explore. It can give us cool storylines about Gallifrey's past or the Doctor's home universe. Yet it was not really explored at all in season 13 I feel like its potential was wasted. I don't dislike the Timeless Child, but I want it to get more concrete in next seasons.
Gallifrey and the Timelords should be left mysterious. Explaining them diminishes them. In general people's imaginations can create something more interesting than can be told or shown.
I didn't like it when Dalek's were able to levitate to bypass the stair issue
I feel like Daleks and Cybermen are often misused, just to put something evil, but aren't that interesting. But I also really love it when it gets to some more imaginative plots around them. When we think about how many times they have appeared in the show since the beginning, it's incredible to see new ideas emerge !
I liked that Adric died. It was a reminder that travelling with the Doctor isn't safe and always fun. And his last line is heartbreaking.
@@horrorstew3577 🤣🤣🤣
If they do explore the timeless child further the one thing they must never do is reveal the doctors name. I feel that will be the shark jump moment that will finally kill the show.
The thing that everyone forgets about Hell Bent is that Clara DIDN'T escape her death. She will inevitably have to return to that one point and face the raven. She was pulled out of her timeline and was temporarily frozen. She's not immortal and she knows that. Was it necessary to give her her own tardis? That's debatable. But the point is, what we see in Face The Raven will happen the same - Everything Clara does in Hell Bent is in that split second before she dies.
So in my opinion, Hell Bent doesn't retcon or ruin Face The Raven.
Also I'm not trying to make anyone like Clara or Hell Bent, if you don't like them that's fine. I just wanted to make the point about Clara not escaping her death.
It does still happen but it can happen at any moment she wants. She will only die because eventually…people die. She can have a happily perfect life for however many years she chooses. She could literally turn up at any point and travel with any future Doctor for as long as she wants. She may as well be Martha, she could come back and travel again whenever. Just as as long as at some point in the next billion years she goes back and ‘dies’.
He did the same with Bill, Amy and Rory and riversong. None of his companions get a tragic ending and none of them really die
this is almost the same as the steve rogers living a full life in the past with peggy carter as he will eventually turn up in the present to hand the shield to sam!
It's a way to have your cake and eat it too. She is effectively immortal. She can exist across all of time and space, and only once she has filled all of eternity with Clara, must she die. It's part of the lack of any stakes in the later series.
@@EAKugler she could literally have kept travelling with the doctor. He doesn’t need to go too far anymore to save her as she no longer needs to be saved. She’s practically immortal. There’s no reason 12 and Clara couldn’t just travel together forever on tv or why Clara can’t return to the show
She could literally come back and do a complete additional series like any regular companion and the way Moffat writes her exit would still make this make sense.
This is what happens when you’re so afraid of death and giving anyone a tragic ending, the consequences of your stories start to make less sense
Is imposible to overuse Daleks. They can make a movie only around Daleks.
Russel T Davies says hello...
The Daleks are the only reason I watched Dr. Who and I grew up watching Tom Baker, so he is the Doctor I know. So I love him.
I thought the Sasha Master was before Missy because all of the stuff that the Sasha Master refers to is old who. There isn't anything from new who
When I saw the title of this video I just knew Clara was going to be on this list, and fairly high too! 😆 Now, being a fan of Clara I don't agree with all the hate she seems to receive by some fans, I can understand how some may not like her, or think of her as their favorite companion, but I think she gets too much of the blame for some of the things assocaiated with her. The flaw in the Impossible Girl story arc shouldn't be focused so much on Clara but the Doctor himself. It's he who can't accept that she's just an ordinary woman and not some special puzzle that needs to be understood and found out what meaning she has for seemingly reoccuring over and over at various points in time. Fans want to unfairly point the finger at Clara and give her the blame but it's the Doctor who they should be focusing on. I think most don't like the arc because they think it gives to much importance to Clara at the end and how she has to go back through his timestream to save his past selves, if it were any other companion in her place, Rose, Donna or Amy say, would they still be so upset by it? Probably not. I can see though why people don't like her coming back in Hell Bent since it seems to not only cheat her death, but also seems to have her not face the consequences of her actions which lead to her death since she gets to continue traveling around the Universe in her own Tardis. I'm not a hater of Hell Bent, in fact, in the scene when the Doctor says he would remember Clara instanly if he saw her again, and her turning away holding back tears realizing that he really does not remember her anymore, is heartbreaking to me. Hopefully, in years to come, she will be looked back upon more fondly by some of the fandom.
As for if the Doctor should ever have romantic relationships with his/their companions, I am kind of against that notion for a practical, and logical reason. The Doctor is basically immortal, even more so now if the Timeless Child story arc continues to be true. Their tragedy is their outliving everyone. That's why I never thought it right that the Doctor could ever have a romantic relationship with a companion, they couldn't stand seeing them grow old and die before their eyes... again, and again, and again. It's not something they could ever do. I know the show has often highlighted the flirtations between the Doctor and some of the companions, and it's understandable from their point of view (they see him/her as being young when in fact he's/she's not, being thousands of years old), but for the Doctor, that can never be. Whether they are asexual, or not, has no bearing to it I think. They did have a family in the past on Gallifrey, they obviously had a spouse, had at least one child and then their granddaughter Susan,. So why should they be asexual now all of a sudden? It makes sense that they don't have relationships with humans, or an any other mortal species, simply because they would always outlive them. If it was with another Timelord instead, like River was in part, then that's different, but I don't think the show would ever allow the Doctor to have a permanent relationship, that would take away from what makes the Doctor unique, as well as upseting the rapport that they would have with their companions which is natrual, and intregal to the core of the show.
The Timeless Child... like Elly, I'll have to wait and see how that plays out before I pass final judgement on that one. Good list! 👍
My problem with Clara is that the show became "The Adventures of Clara Oswald", and the Doctor was reduced to being her sidekick, which did a great disservice to Peter Capaldi, who was one of, if not the best, Doctor of all. At least he was given Heaven Sent, in which he gave one of the most amazing one-man performances of all time.
As far as romantic entanglements with his companions, after giving it some thought, I realized (to my own surprise, I must admit) that my favorite relationships were Donna and Ten, and Bill and Twelve. There was no romance involved in either one, just true friendship, which is still a form of love anyway.
Everyone seems to forget Susan Foreman is the doctor’s biological grand daughter, the doctor had to have met someone to have Susan’s mother/father(we don’t know which one is related to the doctor)
I think the Doctor made a very Galifreyan decision regarding genociding the Daleks. When in doubt, observe. Temporize, even.
Well, given what happened to Adric, don't you think that would have been a really good reason to develop that technique? The Doctor didn't do it because he hadn't invented and practiced it yet. Also, if the Doctor had, the actor still would have wanted another job.
I'm right there with you Ellie. I will also always defend River Song as a love interest. One of the reasons I think it worked was because the Doctor saw her first at the end of her life and at the end of their relationship. She was proof that it was possible for Ten, who is still getting over Rose, to have an actual, fully realized relationship. Since he got that assurance first, he was able to let his guard down over the next couple centuries, let her in, and let himself fall. I love her Big Finish stories too, where it's very evident just how unconditionally she loves this person she married when she was relatively young in her timeline. No matter which Doctor she encounters, they're still her spouse and she loves every version she meets. She's one of the only people who really understand the concept of "They're all the same person." With the other companions, it seemed like they were more romantically inclined toward a specific body of the Doctor's. Even with Rose, I felt like she didn't fully see him as a romantic interest until Ten came along. That's when she fully dropped Mickey. River also didn't have the kind of breakdowns Rose and Clara had when the Doctor regenerated. Once she realized who Twelve was, it was flirty business as usual and a question about how he managed to get more faces outside the standard regeneration cycle. Like you said, her purpose was partially to be a love interest instead of being a companion who happened to fall in love with the Doctor, so it worked more smoothly. And with her being older (both with the actress being Alex Kingston and the story giving her an augmented life span), it felt more right for the 900-2000 year old Doctor instead of having his much younger companions falling in love with him.
I remember when the controversy around series 12 cropped up, and people began comparing it to when Adrick died in earth shock. I always thought of it, as being like when Spider-Man saves, Mary Jane Watson, following the death of Gwen Stacy. Spider-Man tried to save Gwen, and but failed. And so Peter Parker spent years reliving that situation and trying to figure out what he could’ve done differently or what he could’ve done better in order to save her. And then, when a similar situation cropped up with Mary Jane Watson, he had the opportunity to do things correctly the second time. it’s the same thing with the Doctor here. After Adrick died, he would’ve spent centuries trying to figure out what he could’ve done differently and how he could’ve saved his friend. So by the time, the 13th Doctor rolled around, she was ready. She knew what to do because she had done it incorrectly once before.
I, personally, have always seen the doctor as ace, or at least on the ace spectrum. However, that doesn't mean they're aromantic as well. They have had many well-built romantic relationships, like Rouge and 15, and Rose and 9/10, but anything other than romantic feels off.
I would really LOVE a spin-off of The RiverSong Adventures ❤
In regards to Adrics fate, there is an argument to be made that the reason the Doctor is able to save characters from certain death now and not back then was because the doctor learnt from that failure going forward. They could save Adric back then and has since vowed never to let that kind of fate occur again. The doctor learns from their mistakes too after all and figuring out how to save everyone is something they’d dedicate themselves to following such a loss.
You got some info on The Timeless Child wrong: The Doctor is still a Time Lord, always has been - was made one when used as a agent for Division and then attended the Academy again in their current “The Doctor” life. The Doctor isn’t native to Gallifrey but IS a Time Lord - as that’s a title/role and not a species. “What was the point of 11’s new regeneration cycle in The Time of The Doctor”, well that’s because Tecteun limited their regenerations to 13 per cycle just like any other Time Lord - the Doctor used to have unlimited regens but when Tecteun, Omega and Rassilon were founding the Time Lords using The Timeless Child’s DNA they created the 13 lives rule. Most likely away to keep all other Time Lords from outliving them. all of this is explained in s12.10 and it’s not that hard to understand.
Nowhere in The Timeless Children is it stated that the Doctor/The Timeless Child has a regeneration limit (the Master says that "future generations" of Citadel dwellers were given a limit, but doesn't mention the Child).
In fact, considering that we see the Child regenerate over and over again while strapped to that chair, it seems like they could keep going as long as they like. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it can be interpreted either way.
It became species/race in the Timeless Children episode. The Shobogans (native Gallifreyans) altered their DNA from the child, making themselves effectively into another race, a race they decided to call Timelords. They basically altered their own DNA to match that of the child, so the title of that episode being in plural refers to them, they made themselves into "Timeless Children", which essentially is, what they call the child, because they have no idea what race it belongs to. The Timelords = Timeless Children.
Anyway I agree with the rest, they limited the Doctor as well and thus 11th's regeneration had to be resupplied with another cycle in Time of the Doctor.
@@danthemeegs8751 Sure it doesn't mention, but there's lots of stuff, that wasn't mentioned, we can't depend on everything being mentioned or shown directly.
They also used the Chameleon Arch on the Doctor to not only erase memories, but also to limit regenerations, altering the Doctor's/Timeless Child's physiology to the standard of the Timelord physiology with the limit in place. It makes perfect sense, since the Doctor was a usefull asset to the Division, but any difference standing out would rise unwanted questions, making the Doctor a completely ordinary Timelord would be the most logical move.
I actually appreciated The Timeless Child as being the very best of the 13th's stories. Going back to Classic Who, there were already some internal inconsistencies that could only be resolved if The Doctor had, at a minimum, at least one pre-Hartnell set regenerations.
We know, again from Classic Who, that before he started calling himself The Doctor, he was known as Theta Sigma. We even get a Theta Sigma Easter egg in the penultimate episode of Matt Smith's first season (on the cliff face - the first line was "hello sweetie" with the 2nd line being temporal coordinates that started with the Greek letters Theta Sigma.) So my head Canon called this extra set of regenerations that had to exist to make the stories work the Theta Sigma era.
While I wasn't thrilled with pretty much anything about the 13th's run - not Jodie's fault. She did an amazing job with the steaming piles of crap that they called stories. I was very glad to see a show runner take the time to resolve all these dangling plot threads - some of which were introduced in the 80s.
With the masters timeliness never quite being fully revealed there is a theory that the sacha master incarnation is before missy and even before simm so the fact that he is villainous again would make sense
Nice analysis and comments, lot's to chew over.
The Dalek are massively overused there was a time when a Dalek story was something to look forward to, now they have become a crutch for the writers when they have run out of creative juice.
you can almost see a group of desperate worn out looking people sitting around a table. "Ok guy someone has to have an Idea for the next episode?" they look at each other study the papers in front of them "Sorry." throwing their hands up in the air the show runner in exasperation say "Fine give them a Dalek episode that'll keep them happy"
This has lead the Daleks and to a lesser extent the Cybermen suffering some of the worst written stories and yes I am looking at you famous writer who thought making the Cybermen into the Borg made them scarier. Now the minute the Daleks show up you take your head in your hands in the knowledge that this is going to be shite lets hope it will at least be entreating.
As far as the Master in the current Doctor Who while Missy can hold her head up high, the other two make Dick Dastardly look like professor Moriaty. They chew the scenery like Jeremy Irons in the Dungeons and Dragons movie their plans were for the most part were both petty and stupid.
So the fact that the progenitor of the Timelords murdered dozens of children just to gain a longer life is fine?
The easiest way to save Adric would be to repair the console and, sometime in the future, think, "adric!" Then go back in time, rescue Adric and return him to his home with no one the wiser.
6th Doctor and Evelyn are probably my favourite Tardis duo. Maybe tied with 7th and Ace. But he's definitely much better or at least we see much more of his personality in the audio stories. Jubilee is a must-listen to anyone who enjoyed 2005s "Dalek". Can't really go wrong with any Evelyn episode, I don't remember disliking any of her episodes, she's so great at calling out the Doctor's grumpier inclinations and it's clear how much the Doctor likes her.
I have so much respect for Colin Baker. I'm saddened that things didn't work out with him as The Doctor sense it was a roll he was very much interested in.
My thoughts on the master go along the lines that John Sim didn't regenerate into Michelle Gomez, but into Sacha Dhawan. Since Missy had know idea how she regenerated, it allows for the typical madness to run out in this series but still allows the redemtion arc.
As for the Timeless children, my feeling on regeneration is that it requires the timelord in question to be have been in close proximaty to the time vortex recently, like the untempered schisim on Galifrey or in a Tardis radiating artron energy. I mean how often have we seen the doctor regenerate outside of the Tardis? Capalldi left the tardis mid-regeneration to try and stop it, heavily implying my theory is correct. Yes River regenerated without a Tardis nearby, but to be fair nothing about river makes sense at that point.
Honestly the Timeless Child thing felt like a slap in the face to anyone who is familiar with Doctor Who lore. Also how The Master wiped out the Time Lords with seemingly minimal effort making them seem kinda pathetic. During 13's run I really couldn't get that invested in what was going on.
"I don't want to go" line from David was a realization for me especially after seeing the coming doctors, although it's the same soul the personalities are different which means technically he died, he didn't want his individual personality to die and be replaced by a new personality /individual
The "no hanky-panky aboard the TARDIS" rule emerged during Jon Pertwee's era. However, it was generally joked that the 3rd Doctor and Liz Shaw's relationship was all professional, while most likely the more open (probable party girl) Jo Grant and the Doctor probably were going at it like bunnies between adventures... 😉
now I can't get that picture out of my head, thanks D;
Hold on. Why this and still no Bernard Cribbins tribute?
We won't be doing a standalone video for Bernard, but we do have a tribute in article form titled "Doctor Who: 7 Most Memorable Moments Of Wilfred Mott". Sean and Ellie also shared their thoughts on Twitter.
The problem with a standalone video would be that we would set a precedent - as in, people would start asking where the video is every time an actor dies, and that's not something we want to start doing.
@@danthemeegs8751 Why do you see a problem with doing occasional tributes to cherished actors who gave us so much over the decades (Cribbins started with DW in 1965.) You did a beautiful tribute one week ago for Star Trek's Nichelle Nichols. You have a great channel and I don't presume to instruct. It's just disappointing.
“It explores the chances of opening up the Doctor’s past”
But that’s the point, it shouldn’t of been a gateway for answers.
It’s the Doctor
Plus it more interesting that the doctor makes him/herself upwards by doing right instead of chosen to do so
Tbf The Doctor IS a Time Lord. That's never been in question - She just may not be a native Gallifrayan. I like The Timeless Child arch - I think it adds more than it takes away.
I think the thing about the doctor having relations with his companions is the power dynamic will never be even. The way the companions look up to him as an authority and idolize him like a god.
Colin Baker was my favourite Doctor as a kid and to this day, along with the enhancement of his Big Finish presence, he remains my favourite Classic Doctor.
I personally think his run was one of the strongest and he doesn’t have a single story that I’ll skip past. Big Finish just made him even more complex and loveable than he already was.
I know the reasons for peoples animosity but I just don’t get it. As Ellie says regarding the timeless child: so what?
The Doctor can often be erratic after a regeneration so crazy mad stuff can happen. He’s haughty and arrogant: they all were to a degree, especially the first.
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion but I just don’t think it warrants such an aggressive condemnation based on his TV run. I loved it and still do; and his outfit is AWESOME! All that colour! AMAZING!
🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🤩🥰🤯🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈
Before I watch this, looking at the thumb nail, I get it. My wife is a Whovian, and I'm at the moment, limited to Eccelston onwards - and I swear I can foresee, "oh here comes the cyberman" and, "I wonder what's in there? A dalek? Oh, there they are again." 😂
I agree the timeless child has the potential to be a good thing. As stated the loose ends need to be tied and things need to be explained a bit more. I like that it gives the ability to expand the core story further however. The fact the the doctor is different than the time lords, the fact he stole a tardis and ran away, the fact the time lord hierarchy always treated the doctor like a tool but were fearful of the doctor. These plots are able to be answered while opening up and infinite amount of story from pre-first doctor. It also helps explain why the doctor was quiet rude to humans in the first episodes, yet now the doctor only talks about how remarkable humans can be.
Hot take: The reason Clara overshadowed Amy was because Amy was an abhorrent companion. Rory was better, Martha was better, Rose was better (Donna was equally bad).
I'd really like to know why Ellie likes River Song so much though. Nearly every episode with her (save The Library which I like overall, NOT because of RS' death, which was also heart-rending) was such a slog to get through.
(Bonus hot take: She was quite good in The Time Of Angels which was otherwise ruined by "The image of an Angel...")
Did Ellie just call Tennant the best Doctor of all time? She says she doesn't have a lot of knowledge of the classic show. Clearly, if she thinks Tennant is the best Doctor. Oh and the plot of the Timeless Child was nonsense.
The Daleks will never be overused. The Daleks are my favourite Doctor Who monsters, the Cybermen being my second favourite.
All the Timeless Child arc did was canonize the Morbius Doctors and crib from the Cartmel Masterplan. Eh, I can live with it.
They are never gonna tie the timeless child storyline up, my bet is they'll sweep it under the rug. If they do try tie it up I'll be surprised.
If they ever end the show, that's the story line they'll probably use to tie it up with.
On the Adric point. Maybe the Fifth Doctor never thought of that sort of maneuver. It wasn't in the normal Time Lord playbook, and it just didn't come to his mind. But maybe having centuries to think about how he might've been able to save Adric (like how he had all that time to think about saving River Song) he one day thought of this little strategy. Or maybe he thought of it during the Time War, and used it a few times during that. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Looking back on these events you can think of so many different ideas that you wouldn't have thought of then because you didn't have the time or experience.
The Host Is Absolute PRETTY !!!
I always imagined that the master’s newest incarnation was due to… um “timey wimey.” Simm’s version was very set on not turning out like Missy so I presumed when he regenerated his conscious will impacted it so that he became someone else. Of course this would seemingly alter the doctor’s/show’s history but I was like eh “time wimey” it somehow still happened. Not that logical but it’s dr who so I just went with this theory.
I always thought that the newest master was actually in between Simm and Missy. We never actually see Simm regenerate into Missy, or Missy into the current master
wobbly wobbly timey wimey
"It's not a season of Doctor Who without an appearance of the Daleks" is kinda like "it wouldn't have been a season of Star Trek: The Next Generation without an appearance of Q".
Like a clear reason why the doctor might be more then a normal time lord. Who instead of having a limit do not have one
Jo Martin can be a timelord from a different universe. They can run with that if they want, but the Timeless Child storyline doesn't do it for me. Chibnall could've had a good run with Jodie if he didn't want to get all preachy and change the basis of the whole show on a whim. Sure.. introduce multiverses and new worlds to explore, new companions and such... but don't mess with the foundation of the show, destroy over half the universe, and then just move on as if nothing happened. I'd be happy if it all ended up as a fever dream from 12th's regeneration (but then you leave Jodie's Doctor in some sort of "limbo" where she's not counted). Somehow they need to keep Jodie's Doctor as 13 yet do away with all that Timeless Child crap and get back to having fun and exploring the universe (with a little drama thrown in to keep the waterworks flowing every so often). 😁
Remember that at the end of Genesis Of The Daleks, the Daleks were trapped in their bunker, for a long time, instead of rampaging through the universe straight away, so history is changed anyway.
This is a really weird video for me to watch- but will explain.
First, I have watched pretty much every Doctor Who story up to about the middle of Capaldi's time. This includes classic Who.
However, it is very clear that the video would be nothing but spoilers for me. I simply *do not remember* most of the New Who stories, not even the big ones. The classic ones I remember really well, but have retained almost nothing about New Who. I find this really weird, as I thoroughly enjoyed the New Who I watched (much of it surpassing, for me, anything in the Classic Who era), but for some reason I simply haven't remembered it. A few stories do stand out, but most of it has gone.
I must be getting old... but at least it does suggest I'll be able to watch it all again, and experience it for the "first" time. :).. if I ever find the time. What I need is a time machine...
Definitely finish off Capaldi’s era, his finale is one of his best stories!
The End of Time was amazing because I WAS IN IT! Mwahahaha.
I would argue that New-Who (21st Century) and Classic Who (20th Century) are two seperate shows and have independent continuities. New-Who is inspired by Classic Who but events in New Who stories do NOT retcon events in Classic Who.
I like the idea, but new-who uses to many flashbacks/ ‘classic clips’ for that to work
@@qwertyrobbo101 Think about it like the Stargate franchise. There's the original movie from 1994, then they made a series containing 10 seasons and few spinoffs. The series sometimes contradicts the original movie, but there's alternate realities and stuff, that can easily explain, why the actors look different from the movie, why the main bad guy is from a different species (retconned to be the same species, but he still looks different in the movie, so there you go) and other stuff. Basically the events from the movie happened, but people can imagine them being in an alternate reality, so all the events are valid, but with different looking characters of the same names, different looking bad guy species and so on.
Or take Marvel's Cinematic Univrse and Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. series as another example. Every major eveent from the Marvel movies (Avengers and co.) happened in the later series, but non of the events from the series was ever mentioned in any major Marvel movie. In conclusion the AoS series takes place in an alternate reality, which is almost identical with the main MCU movies, but Coulson was resurrected and works as the head of a team of special operation agents for SHIELD. To put it in another perspective AoS isn't canon to MCU, while MCU is canon to AoS.
So you could pretend, that ClassicWho is canon to NuWho, but NuWho not being canon to ClassicWho. Events from Classic are reflected in NuWho, but it doesn't work the other way 'round, like Timeless Children still doesn't change the 50 years old history.
I know this is a year old but, can WhoCulture go back to this video format more often? It’s great when we can see who is talking and them being more than a disembodied voice. Love WhoCulture!
I watched The End of Time in April and have already forgotten it
Come on Ross, you don't remember that amazing villain Joshua Naismith?
9:32 I feel like The Daleks need there own spin-off & have them focus on there war campaign against all life forms. They’ve tried this before Terry nation the creator of the Daleks wrote a pilot that was going to be sold to US TV but it never fell through it was released has a big finish audio drama but that’s it. Imagine a Dalek series but without the doctor to save the day
maybe the reason the doctor was able to save jake was because after adric he had dedicated some time to have a plan to save the person if a similar situation happened.
Didn't hate the Timeless Child reveal, but I felt revealing it was the Doctor was a bit lazy. In my opinion, it should have been their granddaughter, Susan. That would have been a perfect explanation on why they left Gallifrey. To protect Susan. Also, I didn't much like the Cyberlords. Gallifrey's survival was such an important thing, and now it's dead again.