Love most all the rogue changes.....except for Fast hands. The "Use and Object" as a bonus action was easily one of the best features for the Rogue class as a whole, as administering a potion as a bonus action is such a powerful thing that most DMs just homebrew you can by default. Had Fast hands remained as it was, the new Thief's Reflex would have been incredible to get in and really bring someone off the floor in a hurry.
I'm a little (very, actually) sad that Fast Hands lost the Use an Item portion. Thieves are my favorite subclass and being able to drop caltrops or throw an Alchemist's Fire as a bonus action was a huge draw for me.
I'm planning to make a thief soon that will greatly use items such as pocket sand, rope for lassos and whatever more I can think of. Maybe replacing the sand for ground up peppers as I level up. There needs to be some creativity and some rule laying with the DM, but I think it will be fun.
I don't like that they took away the thief's ability to use items with a bonus action, and to operate any magic item regardless of character restrictions. Often when I thought of making a thief, I imagined how I could use caltrops, oil, ball bearings, acid flasks, poison vials and all those interesting items that no one uses because it costs an action to do it, and a thief could use it as a bonus action.
@@aetherslanding9660 Well, there's always the chance they will make a subclass dedicated to that Come to think of it, using all that as a BA is cool, but isn't very "Thief-like" (using magic items isn't either, but dunno)
@@fiorasvante I disagree, dropping caltrops or setting a fire as a distraction while running away from guards feels extremely Thief-like to me. So having an ability that incentivizes you to carry and make use of those items works very well.
@@Hayden-vf1ss I feel like your scenario isn't affected at all. At least if you are including a dash action as part of your running. Now you could even throw your caltrops, move and double dash.
I really like the the subtle strikes mechanic. The importance of landing your one hit as a rogue is really important so advantage is essential every turn. This in turn with the two weapon fighting boost is great for allowing the rogue to keep up with other martials with their much more reliable damage from extra attack.
They *needed* to add these changes, because they removed opportunity and other "off-turn" based sneak attack. I mean it is a good addition IMO to the Rogue in general, sneak attack notwithstanding. I am also delighted that a whip based Rogue is now an option from level 1.
"Mechanic", its just pack tactics, and the actual subtle yet very impactful skill of seeking out and setting up ways the out of your turn sneak attack is gone.
@@carpetdragon6066 Same argument can be made about natural weapons being a 10th-16th level monk feature. Not only does it not work that way, but also doesnt come with -2 str and sunlight sensitivity.
Wasting a feat and still doing less damage overall is a huge nerf to the class. This is a class that should have been buffed..... not stepped on. Rangers are already better than rogues and this UA doubled down on that.
A rogue fights too fair. I would like to see something like a pocket sand, sap, a mechanical way to dispose of a lone guard without arguments with a dm.
Not trying to start an edition war or anything, but I love in PF2E rogues have "Debilitating Attack" which means they can choose to either do their extra damage as normal, or, inflict a handful of conditions determined by their subclass. You may be able to choose to disarm an opponent by stabbing them in the arm, blind an opponent by hurling a handful of sand at them, knock an opponent down by stabbing them in the knee etc. I like the idea that a rogue will never fight fair
i think the epxloit was an oversight, theyve simply waited til now to fix it, its not a big deal to me, although a few good rogue skills appear to come online a little late
@@badmojo0777 it wasn’t an oversight. In the Sage Advice compendium, they address multiple Sneak Attacks and not only confirm it can be done, but give 2 examples of how to get a 2nd (opportunity attacks and Battle Master’s Commander’s Strike). If it was simply an oversight, they would have errata’d Sneak Attack a long time ago like they have so many things to make it clear only one per round, not one per turn
Yea, and unless I missed it after watching this twice, they didn't even discuss it... 🙃 I have a swashbuckler/battlemaster that this will handicap to the point of being *almost* unusable.
@@solarisdevorak since when is Thief healer ever been a problem? It's the only viable way to even use a Healer's kit in the first place and any spellcaster can heal better, and there's only 3 charges on a Healer's kit so you have to keep buying more, the healing doesn't scale, bonus action healing isn't unique to it, you can't cunning action if you try to use it to heal, and you have to waste a feat on making it work. There is literally nothing busted about it at all.
@@solarisdevorak instead of getting rid of exploits they could clarify the rules so that these exploits are just part of the game (none of them where gamebreaking excpetially because any caster can do it better)
They're technically not nerfing it. They ARE clarifying what you can and can't do. Essentially, they're taking what Crawford has said in the past on Twitter, and putting it here.
@@KevinVideo "Use an Object" is no longer a part of the Thief subclass feature "Fast Hands" which was the biggest draw to playing the Thief subclass previously. Outright removing it is not the same as clarifying rules.
One request I would make to help with playtesting would be to make the unearthed arcana stuff for One D&D available on the character builder tool. Hope this will come in as it would really help playtest more.
I wonder if it mechanically impossible because it REPLACES stuff instead of just adding stuff. But I agree, it would be really handy, especially when part of the "selling point" of OneDND was supposed to be live updates for the books.
It would be easy from a player standpoint all you have to do is check playtest material just like the critical role option. From a designer standpoint they are probably shying away from it because of coding some of the new features in the app because they are still fluid and changing and would cost them money to pay a programmer to keep changing these things. So it would be difficult to add it but not impossible. Edit: but with that said I would love that feature
@@broomemike1 I think it’s possible as right now if you hit a single check box when playing beast master ranger it will change the entire subclass you are using
@@broomemike1 it's entirely possible, they dont fully replace classes when they do revamps, they just create a new one and the old one becomes inaccessible. i have an old blood hunter on dnd beyond that still uses the unrevised version of the class
It'd definately be nice to have when things are more set in stone at least. Right now things are understandably really up in the air in terms of having proper final versions to consider expending the money and time to implement it as of now.
I like most of these changes but I dislike the loss of the fast hands "use an object" feature. I felt that it adds a level of depth to combat besides "Hide, Shoot/Stab, Repeat". Using lesser used items like Oil, Alchemist Fire, Acid, etc. is really fun and my players and I both love stuff like that. It never felt like it was out of the way or too much when I DM'd or played so I hope you reconsider.
I played a Thief Rogue and people underestimate fast hands, I was throwing oil and alchemist fire left to right in a single turn. I felt like Batman. On that note, D&D needs better throwable “grenade” like items.
@@RPGLameOnot just throwing stuff, being able to use mundane items such as manacles or a ripe on a flying enemy is fun to play around with. Fast hands basically opens up even more mechanics that a creative player can play around with. Fast hands reminds me a lot of Joseph Joestar in the fight where he put a bunch of grenades on an enemy and just pulls out a tommygun to blast him
Loving this update, great overall, but I agree with what I’m seeing a lot of people say in that it sucks that Use an Object was removed from Fast Hands. I’m also concerned about the later class features’ focus on magic items; that’s really dependent on the generosity of your DM and the setting you’re playing in. Seems like in a lot of campaigns these could be borderline useless, which isn’t fun for anyone. If I’m playing a thief, my priority is pulling off bigger and better capers; would prefer to see higher level features that reflect my heightened abilities to gracefully take more and more difficult things, distract and confound my foes, and get away cleanly. Maybe higher level features could be more along the lines of additional Reactions, being able to actually disappear (go invisible/teleport/etc.), get bonuses to charisma to help Charm people, more tools to fight dirty (ex. spreading out Sneak Attack damage across more than one target), stuff along those lines?
With normalizing subclass advancement, one fun thing that can be done more easily is something I've experimented with at my table: using a subclass with a different base class. Also, I really like the idea that the thief is cheating with their abilities. Good flavor for the mechanics.
I thought the same thing! When they tried prestige subclasses UA back in like 2015 they decided it didn’t work because the subclass levels didn’t line up, so I think they’re taking that into account here.
What was the reasoning for removing Fast Hands' ability to use objects as a bonus action? Arguably that was thieves' biggest draw, and its completely gone now.
Use an object is probably the most vague rule/concept in the original PHB, so it would make sense to chuck it for complexity reasons. No other rule requires so much ad hoc decision making from the dm, and no other rule requires digging into the equipment table and trying to figure out the asinine wording that was clearly made by an intern (have you read oil flasks? Seriously, what were they on?). That being said, it was definitely the big draw for thief. I’m devastated to see it replaced by effectively nothing. Pickpocketing, lockpicking, and searching are actions that virtually never occur in combat, even if you’re going out of your way. Outside of combat, bonus actions aren’t really a concern. As is, fast hands went from a bad feature you could make fun to something absolutely useless.
The changes to the wording of sneak attack make it unable to work on reaction attacks cutting damage potential in half. The changes to the thief subclass makes fast hands WAY worse and less fun. I have no idea why you would want to take away fast hands' interaction with mundane objects. It made a lot of items that normally would never see any use viable and made the fantasy of a quick witted thief with caltrops or ball bearings to help them escape come to life on the battlefield.
I get the rest of your comment, but the sneak attack one never worked that way? It was always once per turn/round. If you trigger Sneak attack on your turn, it didn't refresh until the start of your next turn. At least, that was my conclusion.
@@scottallen4569 the wording of sneak attack in 5e uses "once per turn", not "once on your turn", which means if you could make an attack on another turn (say, via attack of opportunity) you would get sneak attack on that attack as well.
@@jacobobergfell4593 Optimizers never considered rogues to be good damage dealers, but at least they could get that reaction SA. Now a lot of us are disappointed. Personally I'm waiting to see if the other martials' damage is nerfed, which I suspect it will be.
It was also the most exploited and Crawford mentioned on Twitter that this wasn't supposed to be something you were originally allowed to do. The new version clarifies how it was supposed to go. I'm sure the survey will get bombarded though.
@@KevinVideo I agree that it was powerful and let you do crazy stuff. But Thief was never OP, cos GM give out magic items. I just hate that they took THE THING from the class and made it bland as hell... it you take something, give back something as interesting... now this class will not be played... its just so MEH
I'm kinda dislike the part that Rogue no longer applies Sneak Attack to Bladetrips such as Booming Blade as it has always been a cool thing to do in 5E. I actually feel disappointed about the "new" Rogue for basically it has no changes but nerfs while other Experts get a lot of improvements. Especially now Ranger has also got 4 Expertises while dealing tons of damage with Extra Attack and Spellcasting, which makes Rogue's presence somewhat meaningless. This UA made Rangers and Bards could do the same as Rogue could as an Expert, and even better with the help of Spells, while Rogue doesn't have those aspects from other Groups as the previous video said that "Expert Group Classes all have other Groups' features" which feels not very good. Now Ranger can deals tons of damage while Bard can make strong supports. But I don't see Rogue having any features that would help the team or making any powerful effects to the game to distinguish itself from the other two now, like the Ranger and Bard does. I feel like Rogue is somehow becoming a background class for NPCs and the most basic one without actual helpful features to the team.
I'm generally disappointed in Rogue. I felt like Rogue really lacked versatility and utility that it needed in return for it's average damage and lack of bulk. Sure, expertise is nice but it's just nowhere close to like teleportation, or battlefield lockdown or invisibility. For a class about being a master at special techniques and skills, they really lack tricks both in battle and out. Even Thief's one fun thing of using items as a bonus action is dead.
@@NotsoNaisu Yeah, I do feel like these were the main problems most experienced people could have already pointed out before though. What I mostly see is that they just scrubbed a lot of niche abilities and nerfed the power build feats for martials. Those were things people complained about but they were side symptoms of general power and class imbalance.
I feel soulknife and arcane trickster both give a ton of utility and versatility, so seeing what they do with those subclasses in future versions will be interesting.
@@Quetzelkoa Those are definitely among the strongest subclasses, although I do find it irritating that one of them basically is just you become a really limited caster. Not that I hate partial caster classes/subclasses, but it feels like their solution to versatility and power is just to give thing spells. Heck, their new ranger just leans harder into spellcasting and lost a lot of their non spellcasting features. Arcane Trickster and Soulknife being the good ones also leans into the problem that like Fighter has, where one or two subclasses are brilliant and have enough complexity and power to stand with the best (battlemaster, echo knight and rune knight) but the base class doesn't offer much and most subclasses clearly weren't designed to fill the gap.
I feel like you have greatly misinterpreted the feedback on rogue abilities; although the abilities the rogue has are all thematic and fun, they just aren't strong enough when compared to other classes, who have more damage and sometimes spellcasting to boot. Just because we like what the rogue has doesn't mean the rogue is strong and not in need of buffs. My feedback in october will reflect this. Get ready to see a lot of : reliable talent: 1/5 no damage worse than spellcasting.
They should have buffed the thief and rogue rather than nerf it. I love the thematics of the thief and rogue but they didn't do anything to make it good.
Let’s start with second story work. They made two changes here. 1. They changed the wording on “no extra movement” to a climbing speed. In the old PHB these were mechanically equivalent, but the new rules make climbing speeds strictly worse than requiring no extra movement since you can’t mix and match two different speeds as part of the same move on your turn. For example, the new rules forbid you from moving 5 feet over to a gutter and then climbing up the gutter to a rooftop where you can snipe from. You’d have to move the 5 feet on one turn and then start climbing the next turn. It’s impractical. Whereas if we didn’t have the climb speed at all we could do it all in one turn. This makes it so your climb speed is really only useful outside of combat, but outside of combat you don’t really care if a climb costs double movement. 2. They changed the jump bonus from some useless nonsense about your dex modifier to just using dex as the stat for your jumps. On the surface, this is a massive buff. The problem, however, is that jumping as a whole has been nerfed into the ground by the new rules. It now requires your main action instead of your movement. Who’s going to give up their attack in combat just to jump? I can think of a handful of times I’d ever make that trade. Maybe once or twice in a campaign. The result of these changes is that we now have a feature that was marginally useful to one that is essentially useless. I don’t think they thought through the implications of their rules changes to movement speeds and jumping on these features. The second issue is with fast hands. Fast hands has always suffered from the fact that bonus actions typically only matter during combat, and that trap disarming and pickpocketing typically don’t happen during combat. That problem still remains. However, in the old version you could use an object as a bonus action as well. This actually had mild combat utility in that you could set caltrops, throw oil, and flip tables for cover. Not great, but very fun if you build around it (as I have). In the current version, use an object has been taken out and replaced by using the search action as a bonus action. Setting aside how using your eyes to gauge an enemy falls under “fast hands,” this feature suffers from the same problem as bonus action pickpocketing and lockpicking. Player’s don’t usually need to “determine a creature’s state of mind” or “diagnose an ailment” in the middle of combat where bonus action timing matters. Presumably it will come up that you can use a bonus action to spot invisible or hidden enemies, but that’s not something proactive you can really plan around. As it is, I feel this feature really struggles to provide anything relevant at all. Taken together, the thief is really not getting anything at level 3 (although the higher level abilities rock). I find this sad, since these are the abilities thief players will have through their entire career. While the abilities sound cool, there’s just no meat on the bone here.
Let me make sure I understand what you’re saying correctly. Let’s say I see stairs and then 10 feet to the left of those stairs is a ledge I want to perch on to shoot arrows down at enemies. Are you saying I would need 1 turn to move to the stairs, one turn to climb the stairs and one turn to move from the top of the stairs to the ledge? 3 turns to get there instead of 1 is pretty rough.
@@kingmidas430 stairs wouldn't use your climbing speed (they'd likely just be difficult terrain), but if you replace them with a ladder then yes, it would take 3 turns
The climb speed rules explicitly say "your climb speed can also be used in any situation where your speed is usable". So... You can use all 30 ft. of your climb speed to do exactly what you want to do. No problem!
Older thief could literally use a grappling hook with rope as bonus action, move up it with their climb speed, then shoot the target from elevation. Plus you got to use all the adventuring gear. It had a very Batman feel. I like the new edition of use magic items, but not a fan of the removal of older features
Fast hands nerf is devastating for me as a thief rogue main... us thief rogues already have nothing compared to other subclasses, pls dont do this to my baby :(
Big agree. People who like thief like it for bonus action caltrops, bonus action healer’s kits, bonus action alchemist fire, bonus action grease, bonus action poisoner’s kits. Thief rewarded creative players in a way that other classes and subclasses couldn’t. The lateral changes of other features do not make up for what was stolen from the thief.
There are a few subtle nerfs to the rogue (Im talking about just the base class) that ive noticed - Evasion is pushed back (to make room for the subclass coming earlier and i think also to nerf evasion a little bit) - Sneak attack can only be proct with an ally next to the target not an enemy of the target Both of these i could live with and the evasion being forced back is acceptable i think since its quite strong but the sneak attack nerf just feels like the opposite of a quality of life change and I would like to see it back to any enemy of the target. Other than that i think the rogue is very solid
The rule for how often sneak attack can occur also changed. In PHB2014, it was once on a turn. In this UA it is once on each of your turns, which eliminates getting a sneak attack off as a reaction.
@@Crossfella i didnt even notice that thank you. That ones a bit rougher but I can understand it similar to the evasion nerf though again id prefer these to be reverted
"Careful Refinements" Removes S.A. per turn now instead per round Nerfs thief BA item usage and Thief's Reflexes Gives rangers expertise removing value from rogue expertise Removes Steady Aim and pushed evasion further up Fantastic changes.
Now rogue just needs native extra attack. Always felt weird as all hell that literally every other melee class (and even certain spell casters) can get this but rogue can't. Also, I'd suggest an additional high level boost to sneak attack. Rather than once per turn, make it once per target per turn, so long as all targets meet the base requirements.
Rogues work well without an extra attack, their damage bump comes from Sneak Attack which only triggers once per turn (With how it's worded, its once per turn passed and not once per round passed), dual wielder Rogues don't get much of any benefit except for the +1 AC and chance to hit Sneak Attack if you missed once or maybe access to a ranged weapon like a hand crossbow or a pistol if your DM lets you, But Rogues can work completely fine without the second attack, and Sneak Attack applying to once per target per turn? They can attack with sneak attack on other peoples' turns so this change is sort of redundant, They can *technically* benefit from an extra attack but Sneak Attack is their main damage dealer, not really the weapon they use unless you give them a powerful magic weapon and in that case thats not on the Rogue, and with Sneak Attack triggering once per turn there's no point giving them one
@@WizardCraft-ox4pe While I don't disagree that it works as is, it just feels weird for a class that should be pretty nimble to only get a single attack natively when every other melee class gets two...especially when they tend to wield lighter weapons than all those other classes. Plus I think it's a bit problematic that a class that gets double attack+ natively can take a single level dip into rogue and be able to land sneak attack more reliably than a rogue of equal level. If multi-attack is really an issue I'd say give them a double attack similar to bladesinger...they can either take two regular attacks or attack once with sneak attack...or maybe let them swap out one of those attacks for a half dash or half disengage. of some kind. Wouldn't greatly impact their damage but would allow them to not feel as useless when they're in a situation where they can't sneak attack.
@@RoninXDarknight I keep getting my comment deleted because of YT's weird system where Shift + Delete deletes your entire comment, I would've replied earlier but this happened twice so this is attempt 3 For Point 1; Rogues thematically tend to strike in a more precise and accurate manner as opposed to just cutting someone on the arm. They dig a knife into someones chest and start twisting it, as opposed to just slashing and giving them minor cuts, which makes sense to why Sneak Attack triggers once per turn; trading all of the accuracy you have for the first hit and anything that strikes next is afterthought and isn't as accurate Point 2; mechanically speaking, I'd say just give them the ability to dual wield like the 5e Dual Wielding feat (AC bonus included) and trade half of their sneak attack dice on 1 hit to sneak attack a second target if they move no more than half their speed, presumably obtained at like Level 11 or a threshold at a similar level. (Also good luck not getting Sneak Attack as a Swashbuckler because by that point it shouldn't be an issue if its a 1v1 between you and someone else while your party deal with other threats) But this is assuming they need changes, and as of now it doesn't seem like that's gonna happen since Rogue as is seems fine. It can still happen, so don't get me wrong there, but I don't see much of, if any, reason to change Rogue's core fighting mechanic if it functions fine as is.
@@WizardCraft-ox4pe rogues can't sneak attack on other people's turns anymore, because it's ONLY for the attack action now. Also means they can't use blade cantrips like booming blade, and since they aren't warriors they can't take TWF without multiclassing, and they aren't proficient in hand crossbows anymore either. All of these are major nerfs to the Rogue's damage, and seeing as their utility of skill checks and tools can be done pretty handily by the other experts, I don't see how the rogue has any niche they are better at.
@@dumbwaki5877 This is why my table will likely never upgrade to OneD&D; they keep dropping the ball on features added for dumb stuff like this. I don't get why they felt the need to change that stuff. Or give all classes an epic boon when we hit lv. 20 completely disregarding an in universe explanation as to why we get it, despite how good a boon is
Why in the nine hells did you nerf sneak attack so hard? It now no longer works for readied actions or attacks of opportunity, as it ONLY works on the Rogue's own turn. Why? You act like there were only positive changes and buffs, but this one single change makes this version of Rogue worse than the 2014 PHB even with all the extra features and changes that are actually positives.
I worry about the Rogue becoming the victim of power creep in other classes. So, yes, its true that I do like all the features Rogues get, but I would still say that in 5e when compared with other classes...Rogues are kind of mid. I have been a rabid rogue-lover since I really got into the game back in 3.0, so it pains me to say that but Rogues are just Ok. Which makes me a little tiny bit worried when I hear we're effectively not changing the Rogue, but other classes are getting some wild buffs (lookin' at you, Ranger!) I know Rangers probably won't get all that stuff in the published build, but I'm just saying, don't you leave my baby behind just because his features are neat!
Its neat that the thief rogue who has absolutely no inherit magic can manipulate magic items but artificers really should have the ability to not consume charges, no need to take anything from artificer in exchange because they are already half a caster smashed into half a martial to make 70% of a functional combatant
I'm hoping the "cast spells from spell scrolls off your list" is a feature for more than just the Thief. Either as just a base rule or another subclass from another class.
I think these changes are really cool, but like everyone else I agree that Fast Hands should still allow item usage. Part of the appeal of a Rogue is that they cheat and fight dirty, so their ability to attack you and then suddenly throw caltrops on the ground, or a vial of acid in your face always played into that underhanded and unfair fighting style nicely. There's a possibility that you've moved that aspect of Fast Hands onto a different Rogue Subclass instead, but if the Thief is meant to be all about cheating, then I currently feel like that should still be a part of Fast Hands.
Big fan of some classes being able to bend basic rules such as number of bonus actions. Having two fits them really well and it sets them apart as masters of 'quick' actions. I really hope warriors will under similar circumstances get cut loose from the 1 reaction per turn rule, such that things like interposing a shield to defend someone doesn't conflict with their AoO if they are sufficiently specialized.
So you say it's not a new edition but fundamentally changing every rule and all classes. Good thing everything will be backwards compatible if I only rewrite all my monsters, characters and abilities 🙄
So I’m looking forward to testing out the other sets of characters. But I jumped a lvl.8 human rogue thief into our campaign tonight. We didn’t even get into any fights. Just moving the story along and damn was the new rogue fun. Stealthing/unlocking/and …. Borrowing things is an absolute blast.
Apparently my friend isn't part of that 90% satisfaction. Can't use sneak attacks regardless of the rules because "it's staring right at you", unless someone else hits some arbitrary damage number to "get its attention".
Horrible. Your friend is cruel. However, if he insists on this rule because it works for his inmersion, tell him that the rogue is balanced to sneak attack with any advantage, so if he wants to nerf that, he should give you something to balance it. The easy solution is more damage but it would be even cooler if this "harder sneak attack" also caused stunning, disarming, proning, etc
@@androkguz he's thinks it's overpowered because it's "too easy to get sneak attack" and "too much damage'. He also tells me how in Starfinder, operatives (aka rogues) are great because they can have +30 to hit, add an extra 10d8 damage if they hit, and add extra effects to their attacks like lowering armor or disadvantage to the target. In other words, he's a bit of a hypocrite.
@@androkguz course my rogue was only like lvl 2 or 3 during all this. I got to the point where I stopped even using sneak attack because I got tired of hearing him complain.
Lol, I've been playing for years thinking your second attack with the dagger was part of the main attack and still allowed for bonus actions. I guess I can already say that's not going to be an issue for the game balance xD
Whoa, just realized they've completely destroyed Use Magic Device by getting rid of the following text: "By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. *_You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."_* Sure, the new Attunement and Charges features are cool, but the ability to use items not intended for Rogues was the very heart and soul of the Use Magic Device ability.
In listening to one of the other videos they are intentionally doing some separation and that quote is a major aspect of the artificer, which will be in the expert group when it is reintroduced.
This is all well and great, but with the new wording on Sneak Attack rogues can no longer benefit from that while attacking with spells like Booming Blade or as part of their Reaction. Really don't like that change...
Disagree on being well and great. Rogues needed a buff. Even if they kept it around to being the same as it is in 5e, it would have been bad as they would mechanically be far behind other classes regardless especially with the new changes to bards and rangers. Numerically they are far behind as well
So I love Thieves in D&D and whilst Second Story is WAAAAAAAY better now, I gotta say, not a huge fan of losing Fast Hands most iconic feature. However, its capstone is interesting, certainly way weaker in terms of combat, but it FEELS more like a thief. Though I don't know it really needs the prof limit. Possibly a good discussion can be found there! Thanks for these videos though! Looking forward to seeing how playtests and feedback evolve the Thief moving forward!
second story work is weaker There isn't actually a functional difference between a climb speed and climbing costing no extra movement, because, unlike swimming, no rule specifically references if you have a climb speed As for jumping, the change from "double your jump distance" to "using a different ability score" means the distance you jump has gone from 2x from the ability to about 1.2-1.5x (depending on level, proficiency or expertise in acrobatics) AND it doesn't improve the minimum distance you can jump with no check needed, which when clearing a 6 foot gap over a river of lava, is kinda the most important part. "Can i navigate the town by jumping from building to building without touching the ground" has gone from "yes your jump distance is greater than the distance between roofs" to "no you just do slightly better at the check you have to make to do so" Jumping has also, overall been nerfed to require an action instead of just your movement, so bonuses to jumping ability will still hit your action economy if you actually tried to use them in combat, and you can't jump twice in one turn if you want to fight from and navigate rooftops. A bonus to the check just doesn't fulfill the same fantasy as being able to jump 20 feet consistently every time.
Most things sound ok, just that the thief fast hands was practically removed. It used to he able to do a lot more and has been basically changed into a simple cutpurse feature
As they said, many of the rogue features were already pretty good... I am far more interested in the subclasses that very much need overhauls - Assassin being one, ESPECIALLY if they are considering that critical hit rules change that only lets you roll the weapon's damage dice again and not the whole sneak attack.
@@oiman5733 Assassin still needs a rework. Their Assassinate should be a once per initiative roll ability they can just activate to deal extra damage on top of their sneak attack.
IMO the rogue is almost the same, but maybe a bit weaker... I'm hoping they will improve the subclasses to make them better in ways the rogue used to be before, but from what I saw with the thief, I'm not happy. For example, the rogue can't sneak attack with opportunity attacks or with spells like booming blade anymore. Maybe they will give that to a subclass? The rogue lost steady aim (from tasha's), maybe that will come for a subclass or in another book? Thief used to have 2 turns for the first round with sneak attacks available as a capstone, now it's 2 bonus actions and you can only use it for cunning action instead, it's a nerf, fast hands can't use items, another nerf... feels kinda weak as a subclass. I expected more.
looking at the thief it looks like the sub classes actually got weaker. Honestly if you were to tell me about all the changes I would have hoped they made it so you can use sneak attack per any attack in your main action so they actually did something. Their damage, utility, skills are all weaker in comparison to what they were. objectively the weakest class release in the UA. Martials should be buffed not nerfed.
Tell me you didn't listen to the video or read the UA without telling me that you didn't listen to the video or read the UA. Thief's lvl14 allow them to Cunning Action an extra time per turn for a few times per day.
@@ilovethelegend i think they forgot to add the 4th dash. Since a tabaxi thief can now use feline's agility to dash, main action dash, bonus action dash, then second bonus action dash. That gives a tabaxi thief a maximum movement of 150 ft in 1 turn unaided.
@@caosisaac I thought tabaxi doubled there move speed? So would turn a 30 to 60... Then move, dash as action, then dash as second bonus action which would be 180
It's a bad sign when your interview starts with, "Everyone loves the rogue and every single feature they have because we designed it so well." only to look down on the comments as everyone mentions the changes suck and the class has been underpowered and lacking since the birth of 5e. Oopsie.
Spell casting, as a mechanic has been buffed. Spell lists are larger and bards were made to prep casters. Having more spells and the utility to move them around. All the good martial feats were nerfed, and war caster was buffed. Rogues have the lowest damage in the game, they do it in a decently fun way, but they have lower zero resource damage output than other martials, and no resources to upgrade that. Rogues, and all martials, are in desperate need of a buff to their performance, especially in combat. You could throw multi attack on a rogue, as is, at level 5. And they will still not be overpowered in compared to casters
Normalizing sub class levels will also allow for class agnostic subclasses. like a skulker subclass that you can take with ranger OR rogue. My money is that is what they are setting up for.
Use this comment to "like" if you are gonna comment on the survey to give back to the Thief the Use Object as a bonus action. That was actually their main feature class. Its whats make it a thief, an expert on objects, what make it different from other rogues. The other things on the Thief are awesome, but not using objects as bonus action is a big nerf, most people use them for that feature (the objects usually say if they are activated with an action ot a use object action, so no confusion there)
Overall very solid, but two remarks: I don't like uses per day for two reasons. It doesn't make sense for realism. If something is fatiguing, make it cause "fatigue" damage that recovers upon a short or long rest (or cause exhaustion if severe or if you can't handle more fatigue). Uses per day gives a balancing difference for having few encounters daily or going on and on. While it's nice in a "failing forward" sense that you can succeed at a cost, you don't want too many "emergency powers" that should be held in reserve if one is smart or expecting more trouble. It could make some people be sad and feeling useless after wasting them, or be wasteful and convince the party to rest more or skip a day. Or the are smart but too frugal with the ability and rarely get to use them.
I like that other classes are being buffed. But I feel like the rogue needs more to keep up. I don't want the others going down more. I want the rogue to be brought up to the level of other classes.
Not sure these class/subclass changes will be backwards compatible with anything in Xanithar’s or Tasha’s. seems like these books will be obsolete with the release of the One PHB.
Two Weapon Fighting change not allowing non-light main hand at baseline before feats and fighting styles is mildly unfortunate, but in light of everything else? I think it sounds pretty darn juicy overall. I think the real winner here may actually be the Fighter: Eldritch Knight as getting the attacks integrated into the Attack Action will have very nice interplay with Haste and Action Surge. If they want to commit to the bit and invest their feats into bigger badder blades then more power to em. Granted that's from the perspective of the 2014 version of the class. The Warrior Classes UA could change this.
Mechanically, the rogue feels really behind compared to other classes. Although the GWP and SS are now nerfed, I don't think they can really keep up with effectiveness the way Sneak attack scales. 10d6 might sound a lot on paper, but in actual play that's really underwhelming compared to what casters can do.
10d6 is so little damage it is insulting by that level. It is low compared to what other martials can do as well. The argument of a skill monkey class pains me to hear when they are forced to compete with bards and rangers which are nearly as good but with much more utility and damage options. Rogues aren't only bad mechanically but also numerically. Multiattack.... hunter's mark... I honestly don't know what WoTC are thinking. these changes aren't balanced. People love rogue for thematics but Rogues in 5E and in this play test are bad. They have no features to help them close the gap and with this new release it is obvious that closing the gap isn't doing to happen in fact it is going to widen if this keeps up.
Give them spiderclimb and maybe we can talk. The problem continues to be that spellcasters can break the rules from the earliest levels, while martials are scraping for any ability to engage with the environment. Sorry, not encouraged by these changes
I still wish the Rogue got Extra Attack at 5th level. As a non-caster class (subclasses TBD), it seems like a snub to the Rogue. It wouldn't break Sneak Attack because you can only proc that once on your turn anyways. The revised rules for dual-wielding (two attacks for one action if using Light weapons) is nice, but any class can do that now; for instance, a 5th level martial class like Barbarian can make 3 attacks (if using two Light weapons) with just an action.
No more Steady Aim (something like it moved from 2 to 13) and the option of getting a second Sneak Attack in (though with expensive buffing), and the way Hidden (Condition) works hurting them really hard relative to how all DMs I am aware have been dealing with Hide and Sneak Attack so far, and everything is just great in Rogue land? You really believe that? We (players en mase) do believe that? But it is nice that Ranger will be able to do a lot of it now. Jump also hurting -- add compensation for Hidden and Jump to Cunning Action and keep Steady Aim!
Rogue is my favourite too. I like fighter and barb.. but rogue has better mechanics. And .. ranger is the class I wish I liked.. because its flavourful and should be cool
Lets make whips light weapons that rogoues have access to, yes? They are the only class that could have use of them, and they dont get that proficiency
@@KevinVideo Probably closer to a year. If they're going for a July 2024 release they'll need to get the books sent to the printer in April. That means getting a proof printed in March, and layout finished in February. As such, They'll probably be writing the books in November 2023. That means locking in feedback prior. I'm guessing we can expect new class playtest packages in December, February, and April. Then other packages in July and September, and maybe one final one after.
I'm not seeing anybody talk about the huge shadow nerfs that came to the Rogue's Sneak Attack. You can't sneak attack on opportunity attacks or reaction attacks. You can't sneak attack on weapon cantrips like booming blade or green flame blade. Not to mention that they nerfed Thief, one of the worst subclasses in the game, by removing their ability to use mundane items as bonus actions. The fact that they think the rogue is in a good position really informs my fears about the fates of the other martials in this edition. They know nothing about their own game other than popular opinion. They gutted the feats that made weapon users viable, buffed the feats that spellcasters are taking, and now we're going to see an edition where spellcasters are going to dominate the game even further.
Why DID you ever remove the level 6 rogue subclass feature? It was in the NEXT playtest. It's back in this playtest. How did it not make it into the PHB?
I find it disingenuous how Wizards praise the buffs they gave the Rogue, while omitting pretty much all the ways they nerfed them: - the biggest one is that Sneak Attack will work ONLY on your turn and ONLY when you use attack action. Wanted to use Booming Blade and sneak attack? Nope! Wanted to Ready an Action to sneak attack when enemy jumps out of cover? Nope! Wanted to use Commander Strike or opportunity attack to sneak attack? Nope! This makes their damage lesser, and the game itself shallower, as it doesn't allow teamwork or cleverness to be rewarded. - Given how many of Tasha's optional features are included in baseline ranger, we can assume those are going away... AIM ACTION INCLUDED. Bring back the aim action! - Thief got smashed into the ground. First, he looses the ability to use an object as cunning action. Caltrops, Ball Bearings, putting poison on a blade? Nah, too useful! - They loose the ability to use magic items belonging to other classes - Replacing the extra turn 1/combat with extra bonus action would be alright if at-will, but making it LIMITED RESOURCE on a class that is supposed to have always-on abilities? That's a HUGE nerf.
Would a dual wielding rogue with extra attack from multiclassing (say, into fighter) have 4 attacks? If so, what happens after an action surge? 8 attacks in one round? A thief with 5 monk levels could potentially attack 8 times as well. 4x with light weapons and 4 times with flurry of blows using both bonus actions.
The current wording for the Light weapon property restricts the extra attack to once per round, so it only adds one attack per round total to whatever attack routines you're currently doing (Fighter 5/Monk 2 can make 7 attacks with action surge and bonus action unarmed strikes, instead of 6, for example)
Shortsword [Light Weapon]. I have not problems with weapons just being changed to Simple, Martial, and Exotic. Range weapons would be folded into these three categories. Exotic weapons would be firearms.
Now I have a question tools work differently they give you advantage now instead of the normal bonus as in 5e if you put one of your expertise is in like thieves tools does something new happen or are you no longer to put expertise into tools?
They are really going to ignore the fact that sneak attack is now only applicable during your turn? Pack tactics at 13th level softens the blow of what they did to kobold enjoyers.
I'm going to be honest...I feel like they just gut punched rogues and stole their lunch money. Making sneak attack only work on your turn when you attack? So I can't ready an attack to sneak at just the right moment let alone punishing enemies who move. Then taking one of the best things they had, having the most and best expertise options and just giving the same to everyone else and giving them nothing in return? So now I can play a bard and be basically just as good at skills as a rogue but get spells to help solve problems that I can't skill my way out of...why even play a rogue if these changes stay.
I love everything described here about the new rouge. I do still think that rogues need some kind of core mechanic that they can use to support other members of their party though. Rogues are great, but the way they’re designed incentivizes very selfish play, and I would like them to encourage collaborative play a bit more.
@@benry007 I like that idea. Unfortunately, the Mastermind Rogue has that feature already, and it’s bad because rogues already get more out of their bonus actions mathematically than any other class, so using it for the help action is almost always a strategically bad decision. I would modify it further, so that an attack that benefited from a rogue’s help action would also get to deal the rogue’s sneak attack damage. In other words, I think it would be really cool if Rogue’s could share their sneak attack with other characters.
@@safarfsaf but with regards to the spotlight, those are selfish things. They’re moments where the rogue gets to be cool, not where the rogue enables other characters to be cool. I would argue that for a healthy game every single class should have at least one tool to set other players up to have cool moments.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 I think that is too strong. Plus it would make the rogue feel week because your team mate now basically gets your main feature for free. Also I would just scrap or redesign the mastermind.
Visit dndbeyond.link/yt_OneDnD_UAExpertRogues and help shape the future of the next generation of Dungeons & Dragons.
Love most all the rogue changes.....except for Fast hands. The "Use and Object" as a bonus action was easily one of the best features for the Rogue class as a whole, as administering a potion as a bonus action is such a powerful thing that most DMs just homebrew you can by default. Had Fast hands remained as it was, the new Thief's Reflex would have been incredible to get in and really bring someone off the floor in a hurry.
@@demonzero677 what if they are allowing item use as a bonus action for everyone tho
I'm a little (very, actually) sad that Fast Hands lost the Use an Item portion. Thieves are my favorite subclass and being able to drop caltrops or throw an Alchemist's Fire as a bonus action was a huge draw for me.
This is a playtest, so make your feedback known! :)
Please mention that criticism in the survey when it becomes available.
Yes, I definitely will.
Agreed, it was the subclasses most interesting feature
I'm planning to make a thief soon that will greatly use items such as pocket sand, rope for lassos and whatever more I can think of. Maybe replacing the sand for ground up peppers as I level up. There needs to be some creativity and some rule laying with the DM, but I think it will be fun.
I don't like that they took away the thief's ability to use items with a bonus action, and to operate any magic item regardless of character restrictions. Often when I thought of making a thief, I imagined how I could use caltrops, oil, ball bearings, acid flasks, poison vials and all those interesting items that no one uses because it costs an action to do it, and a thief could use it as a bonus action.
Agreed! It was why I WANTED to play a Thief in the first place!
@@aetherslanding9660 Well, there's always the chance they will make a subclass dedicated to that
Come to think of it, using all that as a BA is cool, but isn't very "Thief-like" (using magic items isn't either, but dunno)
@@fiorasvante I disagree, dropping caltrops or setting a fire as a distraction while running away from guards feels extremely Thief-like to me. So having an ability that incentivizes you to carry and make use of those items works very well.
When the survey comes out, make sure to include that feedback. Tactical feel and interaction is important.
@@Hayden-vf1ss I feel like your scenario isn't affected at all. At least if you are including a dash action as part of your running. Now you could even throw your caltrops, move and double dash.
I really like the the subtle strikes mechanic. The importance of landing your one hit as a rogue is really important so advantage is essential every turn. This in turn with the two weapon fighting boost is great for allowing the rogue to keep up with other martials with their much more reliable damage from extra attack.
They *needed* to add these changes, because they removed opportunity and other "off-turn" based sneak attack. I mean it is a good addition IMO to the Rogue in general, sneak attack notwithstanding. I am also delighted that a whip based Rogue is now an option from level 1.
Never mind that rogues stole that ability from kobolds, it kinda pleases me that racial ability is so strong its a 13lvl class ability
"Mechanic", its just pack tactics, and the actual subtle yet very impactful skill of seeking out and setting up ways the out of your turn sneak attack is gone.
Another bonus is that it would cancel out any disadvantage that the rogue would be suffering from.
@@carpetdragon6066 Same argument can be made about natural weapons being a 10th-16th level monk feature.
Not only does it not work that way, but also doesnt come with -2 str and sunlight sensitivity.
Like The change to light weapons. Dual wielding feeling more naturally integrated into the system is a plus.
Wasting a feat and still doing less damage overall is a huge nerf to the class. This is a class that should have been buffed..... not stepped on. Rangers are already better than rogues and this UA doubled down on that.
A rogue fights too fair. I would like to see something like a pocket sand, sap, a mechanical way to dispose of a lone guard without arguments with a dm.
That could be a subclass where it’s all about fighting dirty
@@user-mu8ok5xf8d Rogue Subclass - "The scumbag "😂
A rogue fights too fair; a girl has no honor.
*It’s a reference, don’t hyperfixate :P*
Not trying to start an edition war or anything, but I love in PF2E rogues have "Debilitating Attack" which means they can choose to either do their extra damage as normal, or, inflict a handful of conditions determined by their subclass.
You may be able to choose to disarm an opponent by stabbing them in the arm, blind an opponent by hurling a handful of sand at them, knock an opponent down by stabbing them in the knee etc.
I like the idea that a rogue will never fight fair
@@NaskaRudd ooh, stab to the knee make a save or be knocked prone. or reduce speed to half
Making it so Sneak Attack now can only happen during your turn and only through the Attack action is a really harsh, unnecessary nerf.
i think the epxloit was an oversight, theyve simply waited til now to fix it, its not a big deal to me, although a few good rogue skills appear to come online a little late
@@badmojo0777 it wasn’t an oversight. In the Sage Advice compendium, they address multiple Sneak Attacks and not only confirm it can be done, but give 2 examples of how to get a 2nd (opportunity attacks and Battle Master’s Commander’s Strike). If it was simply an oversight, they would have errata’d Sneak Attack a long time ago like they have so many things to make it clear only one per round, not one per turn
Yea, and unless I missed it after watching this twice, they didn't even discuss it... 🙃 I have a swashbuckler/battlemaster that this will handicap to the point of being *almost* unusable.
Please don't nerf the only cool feature of "Fast Hands". If it's too complicated, clarify the rules better, but don't just get rid of it.
Complicated? they're getting rid of it to get rid of exploits. ie thief healer
@@solarisdevorak since when is Thief healer ever been a problem? It's the only viable way to even use a Healer's kit in the first place and any spellcaster can heal better, and there's only 3 charges on a Healer's kit so you have to keep buying more, the healing doesn't scale, bonus action healing isn't unique to it, you can't cunning action if you try to use it to heal, and you have to waste a feat on making it work. There is literally nothing busted about it at all.
@@solarisdevorak instead of getting rid of exploits they could clarify the rules so that these exploits are just part of the game (none of them where gamebreaking excpetially because any caster can do it better)
They're technically not nerfing it. They ARE clarifying what you can and can't do. Essentially, they're taking what Crawford has said in the past on Twitter, and putting it here.
@@KevinVideo "Use an Object" is no longer a part of the Thief subclass feature "Fast Hands" which was the biggest draw to playing the Thief subclass previously. Outright removing it is not the same as clarifying rules.
One request I would make to help with playtesting would be to make the unearthed arcana stuff for One D&D available on the character builder tool. Hope this will come in as it would really help playtest more.
I wonder if it mechanically impossible because it REPLACES stuff instead of just adding stuff.
But I agree, it would be really handy, especially when part of the "selling point" of OneDND was supposed to be live updates for the books.
It would be easy from a player standpoint all you have to do is check playtest material just like the critical role option.
From a designer standpoint they are probably shying away from it because of coding some of the new features in the app because they are still fluid and changing and would cost them money to pay a programmer to keep changing these things. So it would be difficult to add it but not impossible.
Edit: but with that said I would love that feature
@@broomemike1 I think it’s possible as right now if you hit a single check box when playing beast master ranger it will change the entire subclass you are using
@@broomemike1 it's entirely possible, they dont fully replace classes when they do revamps, they just create a new one and the old one becomes inaccessible. i have an old blood hunter on dnd beyond that still uses the unrevised version of the class
It'd definately be nice to have when things are more set in stone at least. Right now things are understandably really up in the air in terms of having proper final versions to consider expending the money and time to implement it as of now.
Everyone else: "You're not allowed to do that!"
Thief: "Your rules are not my rules."
screw the rules, i have (your) money!
They're more like guidelines.
Except thief literally lost that in exchange for being a gold cost version of Arcane trickster.
I like most of these changes but I dislike the loss of the fast hands "use an object" feature. I felt that it adds a level of depth to combat besides "Hide, Shoot/Stab, Repeat". Using lesser used items like Oil, Alchemist Fire, Acid, etc. is really fun and my players and I both love stuff like that. It never felt like it was out of the way or too much when I DM'd or played so I hope you reconsider.
I played a Thief Rogue and people underestimate fast hands, I was throwing oil and alchemist fire left to right in a single turn. I felt like Batman. On that note, D&D needs better throwable “grenade” like items.
@@RPGLameOnot just throwing stuff, being able to use mundane items such as manacles or a ripe on a flying enemy is fun to play around with. Fast hands basically opens up even more mechanics that a creative player can play around with. Fast hands reminds me a lot of Joseph Joestar in the fight where he put a bunch of grenades on an enemy and just pulls out a tommygun to blast him
@@AngelCanseco1 oh my god I need to play Joseph Joestar in a one shot now
The light weapon change is interesting. I like that. This part of the UA sounds fun.
Loving this update, great overall, but I agree with what I’m seeing a lot of people say in that it sucks that Use an Object was removed from Fast Hands. I’m also concerned about the later class features’ focus on magic items; that’s really dependent on the generosity of your DM and the setting you’re playing in. Seems like in a lot of campaigns these could be borderline useless, which isn’t fun for anyone. If I’m playing a thief, my priority is pulling off bigger and better capers; would prefer to see higher level features that reflect my heightened abilities to gracefully take more and more difficult things, distract and confound my foes, and get away cleanly. Maybe higher level features could be more along the lines of additional Reactions, being able to actually disappear (go invisible/teleport/etc.), get bonuses to charisma to help Charm people, more tools to fight dirty (ex. spreading out Sneak Attack damage across more than one target), stuff along those lines?
With normalizing subclass advancement, one fun thing that can be done more easily is something I've experimented with at my table: using a subclass with a different base class.
Also, I really like the idea that the thief is cheating with their abilities. Good flavor for the mechanics.
I thought the same thing! When they tried prestige subclasses UA back in like 2015 they decided it didn’t work because the subclass levels didn’t line up, so I think they’re taking that into account here.
It would be really cool if thieves could Copy Scrolls, and/or, use Spells that are in Spell Books as if they were scrolls.
What was the reasoning for removing Fast Hands' ability to use objects as a bonus action? Arguably that was thieves' biggest draw, and its completely gone now.
Use an object is probably the most vague rule/concept in the original PHB, so it would make sense to chuck it for complexity reasons. No other rule requires so much ad hoc decision making from the dm, and no other rule requires digging into the equipment table and trying to figure out the asinine wording that was clearly made by an intern (have you read oil flasks? Seriously, what were they on?).
That being said, it was definitely the big draw for thief. I’m devastated to see it replaced by effectively nothing. Pickpocketing, lockpicking, and searching are actions that virtually never occur in combat, even if you’re going out of your way. Outside of combat, bonus actions aren’t really a concern. As is, fast hands went from a bad feature you could make fun to something absolutely useless.
In what universe did you have to use slight of hand checks with your bonus action? lol
@@safarfsaf sleight of hand yeah not very common.
but the fact you can do some very funny things with using a magic item twice made it fun.
@@OmegaTrooper1 using a magic item does not work with fast hands...
It's to nerf healer's kit spam with fast hands.
The changes to the wording of sneak attack make it unable to work on reaction attacks cutting damage potential in half. The changes to the thief subclass makes fast hands WAY worse and less fun. I have no idea why you would want to take away fast hands' interaction with mundane objects. It made a lot of items that normally would never see any use viable and made the fantasy of a quick witted thief with caltrops or ball bearings to help them escape come to life on the battlefield.
I get the rest of your comment, but the sneak attack one never worked that way? It was always once per turn/round. If you trigger Sneak attack on your turn, it didn't refresh until the start of your next turn. At least, that was my conclusion.
@@scottallen4569 the wording of sneak attack in 5e uses "once per turn", not "once on your turn", which means if you could make an attack on another turn (say, via attack of opportunity) you would get sneak attack on that attack as well.
@@scottallen4569 sneak attack worked once per anyone's turn not one per round
Yeah, this is my reaction to it too. Rogue was supposed to be the class that deals mad damage, but now they are nerfing damage potential.
@@jacobobergfell4593 Optimizers never considered rogues to be good damage dealers, but at least they could get that reaction SA. Now a lot of us are disappointed. Personally I'm waiting to see if the other martials' damage is nerfed, which I suspect it will be.
The rogue lost their ability to use Sneak Attack on their reaction/bonus action. I found it fun to sneak twice per round
For me, that was probably the least surprising change. That was one of those things, like one-handed quarterstaffs, that always felt like a loophole.
i bet you did
Thief is one of my favorite subclasses I haven’t had a chance to play yet. Hats off to the Gray Mouser.
Gonna try my first time playing DnD as an Inquisitive Rogue this weekend. Hopefully it goes well!
Why they removed "Use an Object action" From Fast Hands?? This was BEST feature of thief subclass!
It was also the most exploited and Crawford mentioned on Twitter that this wasn't supposed to be something you were originally allowed to do. The new version clarifies how it was supposed to go. I'm sure the survey will get bombarded though.
@@KevinVideo I agree that it was powerful and let you do crazy stuff. But Thief was never OP, cos GM give out magic items. I just hate that they took THE THING from the class and made it bland as hell... it you take something, give back something as interesting... now this class will not be played... its just so MEH
I'm kinda dislike the part that Rogue no longer applies Sneak Attack to Bladetrips such as Booming Blade as it has always been a cool thing to do in 5E.
I actually feel disappointed about the "new" Rogue for basically it has no changes but nerfs while other Experts get a lot of improvements.
Especially now Ranger has also got 4 Expertises while dealing tons of damage with Extra Attack and Spellcasting, which makes Rogue's presence somewhat meaningless.
This UA made Rangers and Bards could do the same as Rogue could as an Expert, and even better with the help of Spells, while Rogue doesn't have those aspects from other Groups as the previous video said that "Expert Group Classes all have other Groups' features" which feels not very good.
Now Ranger can deals tons of damage while Bard can make strong supports. But I don't see Rogue having any features that would help the team or making any powerful effects to the game to distinguish itself from the other two now, like the Ranger and Bard does.
I feel like Rogue is somehow becoming a background class for NPCs and the most basic one without actual helpful features to the team.
After a quick read, I'm disliking the change made to multiple sneak attacks per round.
I'm generally disappointed in Rogue. I felt like Rogue really lacked versatility and utility that it needed in return for it's average damage and lack of bulk. Sure, expertise is nice but it's just nowhere close to like teleportation, or battlefield lockdown or invisibility. For a class about being a master at special techniques and skills, they really lack tricks both in battle and out. Even Thief's one fun thing of using items as a bonus action is dead.
It’s a good thing this isn’t a final draft and we can point these things out 😊😊😊
@@NotsoNaisu Yeah, I do feel like these were the main problems most experienced people could have already pointed out before though. What I mostly see is that they just scrubbed a lot of niche abilities and nerfed the power build feats for martials. Those were things people complained about but they were side symptoms of general power and class imbalance.
I feel soulknife and arcane trickster both give a ton of utility and versatility, so seeing what they do with those subclasses in future versions will be interesting.
@@Quetzelkoa Those are definitely among the strongest subclasses, although I do find it irritating that one of them basically is just you become a really limited caster. Not that I hate partial caster classes/subclasses, but it feels like their solution to versatility and power is just to give thing spells. Heck, their new ranger just leans harder into spellcasting and lost a lot of their non spellcasting features. Arcane Trickster and Soulknife being the good ones also leans into the problem that like Fighter has, where one or two subclasses are brilliant and have enough complexity and power to stand with the best (battlemaster, echo knight and rune knight) but the base class doesn't offer much and most subclasses clearly weren't designed to fill the gap.
"Let the rogues rogue"
...you took away their ability to Sneak Attack except when on their turn and using the attack action.
I feel like you have greatly misinterpreted the feedback on rogue abilities; although the abilities the rogue has are all thematic and fun, they just aren't strong enough when compared to other classes, who have more damage and sometimes spellcasting to boot. Just because we like what the rogue has doesn't mean the rogue is strong and not in need of buffs.
My feedback in october will reflect this. Get ready to see a lot of : reliable talent: 1/5 no damage worse than spellcasting.
The first thing to say about the rogue is people Love it. we wanted to change that
Rogue: Thief has been my favorite sub-class in 5e. Yes I know it’s simple but it’s great!
They should have buffed the thief and rogue rather than nerf it. I love the thematics of the thief and rogue but they didn't do anything to make it good.
Let’s start with second story work. They made two changes here.
1. They changed the wording on “no extra movement” to a climbing speed. In the old PHB these were mechanically equivalent, but the new rules make climbing speeds strictly worse than requiring no extra movement since you can’t mix and match two different speeds as part of the same move on your turn. For example, the new rules forbid you from moving 5 feet over to a gutter and then climbing up the gutter to a rooftop where you can snipe from. You’d have to move the 5 feet on one turn and then start climbing the next turn. It’s impractical. Whereas if we didn’t have the climb speed at all we could do it all in one turn. This makes it so your climb speed is really only useful outside of combat, but outside of combat you don’t really care if a climb costs double movement.
2. They changed the jump bonus from some useless nonsense about your dex modifier to just using dex as the stat for your jumps. On the surface, this is a massive buff. The problem, however, is that jumping as a whole has been nerfed into the ground by the new rules. It now requires your main action instead of your movement. Who’s going to give up their attack in combat just to jump? I can think of a handful of times I’d ever make that trade. Maybe once or twice in a campaign.
The result of these changes is that we now have a feature that was marginally useful to one that is essentially useless. I don’t think they thought through the implications of their rules changes to movement speeds and jumping on these features.
The second issue is with fast hands.
Fast hands has always suffered from the fact that bonus actions typically only matter during combat, and that trap disarming and pickpocketing typically don’t happen during combat. That problem still remains.
However, in the old version you could use an object as a bonus action as well. This actually had mild combat utility in that you could set caltrops, throw oil, and flip tables for cover. Not great, but very fun if you build around it (as I have).
In the current version, use an object has been taken out and replaced by using the search action as a bonus action. Setting aside how using your eyes to gauge an enemy falls under “fast hands,” this feature suffers from the same problem as bonus action pickpocketing and lockpicking. Player’s don’t usually need to “determine a creature’s state of mind” or “diagnose an ailment” in the middle of combat where bonus action timing matters. Presumably it will come up that you can use a bonus action to spot invisible or hidden enemies, but that’s not something proactive you can really plan around. As it is, I feel this feature really struggles to provide anything relevant at all.
Taken together, the thief is really not getting anything at level 3 (although the higher level abilities rock). I find this sad, since these are the abilities thief players will have through their entire career. While the abilities sound cool, there’s just no meat on the bone here.
Let me make sure I understand what you’re saying correctly. Let’s say I see stairs and then 10 feet to the left of those stairs is a ledge I want to perch on to shoot arrows down at enemies. Are you saying I would need 1 turn to move to the stairs, one turn to climb the stairs and one turn to move from the top of the stairs to the ledge? 3 turns to get there instead of 1 is pretty rough.
@@kingmidas430 stairs wouldn't use your climbing speed (they'd likely just be difficult terrain), but if you replace them with a ladder then yes, it would take 3 turns
Hell, brother, preach it to the reviewws/forums they host for feedback, this needs to be heard
The climb speed rules explicitly say "your climb speed can also be used in any situation where your speed is usable". So... You can use all 30 ft. of your climb speed to do exactly what you want to do. No problem!
Older thief could literally use a grappling hook with rope as bonus action, move up it with their climb speed, then shoot the target from elevation. Plus you got to use all the adventuring gear. It had a very Batman feel.
I like the new edition of use magic items, but not a fan of the removal of older features
Fast hands nerf is devastating for me as a thief rogue main... us thief rogues already have nothing compared to other subclasses, pls dont do this to my baby :(
To be fair you did get a lot more in exchange (a 4th level atunment and more bonus actions is pretty wild).
@@theepicduck6922 Thats base rogue. Compared to what other subclasses get, Thief rogue is even further down the in its lack-of-actual-skills rut.
Big agree. People who like thief like it for bonus action caltrops, bonus action healer’s kits, bonus action alchemist fire, bonus action grease, bonus action poisoner’s kits. Thief rewarded creative players in a way that other classes and subclasses couldn’t.
The lateral changes of other features do not make up for what was stolen from the thief.
There are a few subtle nerfs to the rogue (Im talking about just the base class) that ive noticed
- Evasion is pushed back (to make room for the subclass coming earlier and i think also to nerf evasion a little bit)
- Sneak attack can only be proct with an ally next to the target not an enemy of the target
Both of these i could live with and the evasion being forced back is acceptable i think since its quite strong but the sneak attack nerf just feels like the opposite of a quality of life change and I would like to see it back to any enemy of the target.
Other than that i think the rogue is very solid
The rule for how often sneak attack can occur also changed. In PHB2014, it was once on a turn. In this UA it is once on each of your turns, which eliminates getting a sneak attack off as a reaction.
@@Crossfella i didnt even notice that thank you. That ones a bit rougher but I can understand it similar to the evasion nerf though again id prefer these to be reverted
"Careful Refinements"
Removes S.A. per turn now instead per round
Nerfs thief BA item usage and Thief's Reflexes
Gives rangers expertise removing value from rogue expertise
Removes Steady Aim and pushed evasion further up
Fantastic changes.
Lets also take away H. Crossbow proficiency cause y not?
Pretty sure Steady Aim is not mentioned since it was introduced in Tashas and this is mainly for the PHB. So Tashas Stead Aim will still be a thing
That extra bonus action for Thiefs is also from BG3. Are we going to see more things implemented in BG3 going to be in the next iteration of DnD?
Well I asked my friends about this everyone thought it was to good and they would not allow it. Now it’s like this. Interesting
Now rogue just needs native extra attack. Always felt weird as all hell that literally every other melee class (and even certain spell casters) can get this but rogue can't.
Also, I'd suggest an additional high level boost to sneak attack. Rather than once per turn, make it once per target per turn, so long as all targets meet the base requirements.
Rogues work well without an extra attack, their damage bump comes from Sneak Attack which only triggers once per turn (With how it's worded, its once per turn passed and not once per round passed), dual wielder Rogues don't get much of any benefit except for the +1 AC and chance to hit Sneak Attack if you missed once or maybe access to a ranged weapon like a hand crossbow or a pistol if your DM lets you,
But Rogues can work completely fine without the second attack, and Sneak Attack applying to once per target per turn? They can attack with sneak attack on other peoples' turns so this change is sort of redundant,
They can *technically* benefit from an extra attack but Sneak Attack is their main damage dealer, not really the weapon they use unless you give them a powerful magic weapon and in that case thats not on the Rogue, and with Sneak Attack triggering once per turn there's no point giving them one
@@WizardCraft-ox4pe While I don't disagree that it works as is, it just feels weird for a class that should be pretty nimble to only get a single attack natively when every other melee class gets two...especially when they tend to wield lighter weapons than all those other classes. Plus I think it's a bit problematic that a class that gets double attack+ natively can take a single level dip into rogue and be able to land sneak attack more reliably than a rogue of equal level.
If multi-attack is really an issue I'd say give them a double attack similar to bladesinger...they can either take two regular attacks or attack once with sneak attack...or maybe let them swap out one of those attacks for a half dash or half disengage. of some kind. Wouldn't greatly impact their damage but would allow them to not feel as useless when they're in a situation where they can't sneak attack.
@@RoninXDarknight I keep getting my comment deleted because of YT's weird system where Shift + Delete deletes your entire comment, I would've replied earlier but this happened twice so this is attempt 3
For Point 1; Rogues thematically tend to strike in a more precise and accurate manner as opposed to just cutting someone on the arm. They dig a knife into someones chest and start twisting it, as opposed to just slashing and giving them minor cuts, which makes sense to why Sneak Attack triggers once per turn; trading all of the accuracy you have for the first hit and anything that strikes next is afterthought and isn't as accurate
Point 2; mechanically speaking, I'd say just give them the ability to dual wield like the 5e Dual Wielding feat (AC bonus included) and trade half of their sneak attack dice on 1 hit to sneak attack a second target if they move no more than half their speed, presumably obtained at like Level 11 or a threshold at a similar level. (Also good luck not getting Sneak Attack as a Swashbuckler because by that point it shouldn't be an issue if its a 1v1 between you and someone else while your party deal with other threats)
But this is assuming they need changes, and as of now it doesn't seem like that's gonna happen since Rogue as is seems fine. It can still happen, so don't get me wrong there, but I don't see much of, if any, reason to change Rogue's core fighting mechanic if it functions fine as is.
@@WizardCraft-ox4pe rogues can't sneak attack on other people's turns anymore, because it's ONLY for the attack action now. Also means they can't use blade cantrips like booming blade, and since they aren't warriors they can't take TWF without multiclassing, and they aren't proficient in hand crossbows anymore either. All of these are major nerfs to the Rogue's damage, and seeing as their utility of skill checks and tools can be done pretty handily by the other experts, I don't see how the rogue has any niche they are better at.
@@dumbwaki5877 This is why my table will likely never upgrade to OneD&D; they keep dropping the ball on features added for dumb stuff like this. I don't get why they felt the need to change that stuff. Or give all classes an epic boon when we hit lv. 20 completely disregarding an in universe explanation as to why we get it, despite how good a boon is
Why in the nine hells did you nerf sneak attack so hard? It now no longer works for readied actions or attacks of opportunity, as it ONLY works on the Rogue's own turn. Why? You act like there were only positive changes and buffs, but this one single change makes this version of Rogue worse than the 2014 PHB even with all the extra features and changes that are actually positives.
I worry about the Rogue becoming the victim of power creep in other classes. So, yes, its true that I do like all the features Rogues get, but I would still say that in 5e when compared with other classes...Rogues are kind of mid. I have been a rabid rogue-lover since I really got into the game back in 3.0, so it pains me to say that but Rogues are just Ok.
Which makes me a little tiny bit worried when I hear we're effectively not changing the Rogue, but other classes are getting some wild buffs (lookin' at you, Ranger!) I know Rangers probably won't get all that stuff in the published build, but I'm just saying, don't you leave my baby behind just because his features are neat!
Rogues aren't mid though. They have been bad in 5e since launch this UA just doubles down on that. They aren't OK.... they are bad.
2:35 LOOKS LIKE PRESTIGE CLASSES ARE BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS
I hope so or bring in something beyond lvl 20 so characters don’t get moth balled.
Its neat that the thief rogue who has absolutely no inherit magic can manipulate magic items but artificers really should have the ability to not consume charges, no need to take anything from artificer in exchange because they are already half a caster smashed into half a martial to make 70% of a functional combatant
"High lvl rogues shouldn't have to worry about setting up their sneak attack." Yeah, well Subtle strike doesn't do that. You already got it.
I'm hoping the "cast spells from spell scrolls off your list" is a feature for more than just the Thief. Either as just a base rule or another subclass from another class.
I think these changes are really cool, but like everyone else I agree that Fast Hands should still allow item usage. Part of the appeal of a Rogue is that they cheat and fight dirty, so their ability to attack you and then suddenly throw caltrops on the ground, or a vial of acid in your face always played into that underhanded and unfair fighting style nicely. There's a possibility that you've moved that aspect of Fast Hands onto a different Rogue Subclass instead, but if the Thief is meant to be all about cheating, then I currently feel like that should still be a part of Fast Hands.
Swashbucklers looking good with sneak attacks 90% of the time
"Everyone loved it! So we made it weaker!"...?
Steady Aim?
Sneak Attack Reactions??
They really should've given their reason for why they nerfed sneak attack. I can't figure it out for the life of me
These small changes are pretty excellent. Thief getting to use Dex instead of Str is HUGE.
Big fan of some classes being able to bend basic rules such as number of bonus actions. Having two fits them really well and it sets them apart as masters of 'quick' actions.
I really hope warriors will under similar circumstances get cut loose from the 1 reaction per turn rule, such that things like interposing a shield to defend someone doesn't conflict with their AoO if they are sufficiently specialized.
I used the house rule for light weapons a while ago and am fully behind it
I'm really surprised you don't talk about the changes to Hide and Hidden here. Big changes for rogues.
So you say it's not a new edition but fundamentally changing every rule and all classes. Good thing everything will be backwards compatible if I only rewrite all my monsters, characters and abilities 🙄
So I’m looking forward to testing out the other sets of characters. But I jumped a lvl.8 human rogue thief into our campaign tonight. We didn’t even get into any fights. Just moving the story along and damn was the new rogue fun. Stealthing/unlocking/and …. Borrowing things is an absolute blast.
Removing sneak attack for attacks made outside of your turn (ie attacks of opportunity) is awful.
Apparently my friend isn't part of that 90% satisfaction. Can't use sneak attacks regardless of the rules because "it's staring right at you", unless someone else hits some arbitrary damage number to "get its attention".
Horrible. Your friend is cruel.
However, if he insists on this rule because it works for his inmersion, tell him that the rogue is balanced to sneak attack with any advantage, so if he wants to nerf that, he should give you something to balance it.
The easy solution is more damage but it would be even cooler if this "harder sneak attack" also caused stunning, disarming, proning, etc
@@androkguz he's thinks it's overpowered because it's "too easy to get sneak attack" and "too much damage'. He also tells me how in Starfinder, operatives (aka rogues) are great because they can have +30 to hit, add an extra 10d8 damage if they hit, and add extra effects to their attacks like lowering armor or disadvantage to the target. In other words, he's a bit of a hypocrite.
@@Rik3n that's rough buddy
@@androkguz course my rogue was only like lvl 2 or 3 during all this. I got to the point where I stopped even using sneak attack because I got tired of hearing him complain.
Lol, I've been playing for years thinking your second attack with the dagger was part of the main attack and still allowed for bonus actions. I guess I can already say that's not going to be an issue for the game balance xD
Whoa, just realized they've completely destroyed Use Magic Device by getting rid of the following text: "By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. *_You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."_*
Sure, the new Attunement and Charges features are cool, but the ability to use items not intended for Rogues was the very heart and soul of the Use Magic Device ability.
In listening to one of the other videos they are intentionally doing some separation and that quote is a major aspect of the artificer, which will be in the expert group when it is reintroduced.
This is all well and great, but with the new wording on Sneak Attack rogues can no longer benefit from that while attacking with spells like Booming Blade or as part of their Reaction. Really don't like that change...
Disagree on being well and great. Rogues needed a buff. Even if they kept it around to being the same as it is in 5e, it would have been bad as they would mechanically be far behind other classes regardless especially with the new changes to bards and rangers. Numerically they are far behind as well
So I love Thieves in D&D and whilst Second Story is WAAAAAAAY better now, I gotta say, not a huge fan of losing Fast Hands most iconic feature.
However, its capstone is interesting, certainly way weaker in terms of combat, but it FEELS more like a thief. Though I don't know it really needs the prof limit. Possibly a good discussion can be found there!
Thanks for these videos though! Looking forward to seeing how playtests and feedback evolve the Thief moving forward!
second story work is weaker
There isn't actually a functional difference between a climb speed and climbing costing no extra movement, because, unlike swimming, no rule specifically references if you have a climb speed
As for jumping, the change from "double your jump distance" to "using a different ability score" means the distance you jump has gone from 2x from the ability to about 1.2-1.5x (depending on level, proficiency or expertise in acrobatics) AND it doesn't improve the minimum distance you can jump with no check needed, which when clearing a 6 foot gap over a river of lava, is kinda the most important part.
"Can i navigate the town by jumping from building to building without touching the ground" has gone from "yes your jump distance is greater than the distance between roofs" to "no you just do slightly better at the check you have to make to do so"
Jumping has also, overall been nerfed to require an action instead of just your movement, so bonuses to jumping ability will still hit your action economy if you actually tried to use them in combat, and you can't jump twice in one turn if you want to fight from and navigate rooftops. A bonus to the check just doesn't fulfill the same fantasy as being able to jump 20 feet consistently every time.
Most things sound ok, just that the thief fast hands was practically removed. It used to he able to do a lot more and has been basically changed into a simple cutpurse feature
Listening to this after reading the nerfs to Sneak Attack is somewhat ironic.
As they said, many of the rogue features were already pretty good... I am far more interested in the subclasses that very much need overhauls - Assassin being one, ESPECIALLY if they are considering that critical hit rules change that only lets you roll the weapon's damage dice again and not the whole sneak attack.
They reversed their crit rules to being like before the first UA.
@@oiman5733 Assassin still needs a rework. Their Assassinate should be a once per initiative roll ability they can just activate to deal extra damage on top of their sneak attack.
they said in the first interview that the new rules glossary supersedes the old one so currently they have thrown out the first UAs crit rules
Please, fix Phantom... Move trinkets to 3rd so it is actually useful for most players (which means campaigns that do not go past 10).
IMO the rogue is almost the same, but maybe a bit weaker... I'm hoping they will improve the subclasses to make them better in ways the rogue used to be before, but from what I saw with the thief, I'm not happy.
For example, the rogue can't sneak attack with opportunity attacks or with spells like booming blade anymore. Maybe they will give that to a subclass? The rogue lost steady aim (from tasha's), maybe that will come for a subclass or in another book? Thief used to have 2 turns for the first round with sneak attacks available as a capstone, now it's 2 bonus actions and you can only use it for cunning action instead, it's a nerf, fast hands can't use items, another nerf... feels kinda weak as a subclass.
I expected more.
looking at the thief it looks like the sub classes actually got weaker. Honestly if you were to tell me about all the changes I would have hoped they made it so you can use sneak attack per any attack in your main action so they actually did something. Their damage, utility, skills are all weaker in comparison to what they were. objectively the weakest class release in the UA. Martials should be buffed not nerfed.
Can't wait to be able to Dash, Dash, then Dash once more as a Tabaxi Thief
throw haste on there and you should be at around 360ft speed
You... can do that anyway? Cunning action is unchanged from 2014 PHB.
Tell me you didn't listen to the video or read the UA without telling me that you didn't listen to the video or read the UA.
Thief's lvl14 allow them to Cunning Action an extra time per turn for a few times per day.
@@ilovethelegend i think they forgot to add the 4th dash. Since a tabaxi thief can now use feline's agility to dash, main action dash, bonus action dash, then second bonus action dash. That gives a tabaxi thief a maximum movement of 150 ft in 1 turn unaided.
@@caosisaac I thought tabaxi doubled there move speed? So would turn a 30 to 60... Then move, dash as action, then dash as second bonus action which would be 180
Me: "Are rogues finally getting extra attack?"
Jeremy: "Technically no, but yes."
It's a bad sign when your interview starts with, "Everyone loves the rogue and every single feature they have because we designed it so well." only to look down on the comments as everyone mentions the changes suck and the class has been underpowered and lacking since the birth of 5e. Oopsie.
2:40 "We are normalizing sub-class progression."
Any bets that Warlocks will get all their juicy features pushed back to level 3 and up?
Same for cleric and sorcerer
Spell casting, as a mechanic has been buffed. Spell lists are larger and bards were made to prep casters. Having more spells and the utility to move them around. All the good martial feats were nerfed, and war caster was buffed.
Rogues have the lowest damage in the game, they do it in a decently fun way, but they have lower zero resource damage output than other martials, and no resources to upgrade that.
Rogues, and all martials, are in desperate need of a buff to their performance, especially in combat.
You could throw multi attack on a rogue, as is, at level 5. And they will still not be overpowered in compared to casters
Normalizing sub class levels will also allow for class agnostic subclasses. like a skulker subclass that you can take with ranger OR rogue. My money is that is what they are setting up for.
Use this comment to "like" if you are gonna comment on the survey to give back to the Thief the Use Object as a bonus action. That was actually their main feature class. Its whats make it a thief, an expert on objects, what make it different from other rogues. The other things on the Thief are awesome, but not using objects as bonus action is a big nerf, most people use them for that feature
(the objects usually say if they are activated with an action ot a use object action, so no confusion there)
really hoping they add the dexterity jumps to monks as well
Use the new rules to make a Monk/Rogue multiclass. Choose the Thief subtype for Rogue.
Name him after Eddie Guerrero.
Lie. Cheat. Steal.
:D
Overall very solid, but two remarks:
I don't like uses per day for two reasons.
It doesn't make sense for realism. If something is fatiguing, make it cause "fatigue" damage that recovers upon a short or long rest (or cause exhaustion if severe or if you can't handle more fatigue).
Uses per day gives a balancing difference for having few encounters daily or going on and on. While it's nice in a "failing forward" sense that you can succeed at a cost, you don't want too many "emergency powers" that should be held in reserve if one is smart or expecting more trouble. It could make some people be sad and feeling useless after wasting them, or be wasteful and convince the party to rest more or skip a day. Or the are smart but too frugal with the ability and rarely get to use them.
I like that other classes are being buffed. But I feel like the rogue needs more to keep up. I don't want the others going down more. I want the rogue to be brought up to the level of other classes.
Not sure these class/subclass changes will be backwards compatible with anything in Xanithar’s or Tasha’s. seems like these books will be obsolete with the release of the One PHB.
The Rogue worked because pretty much every level gave you something and every few levels it was a great feature.
No it didn't and no they didn't. Levels 4-10 are pretty disappointing.
Heavy weapon property improvement: add +1d6 to the damage if you are wielding it two-handed. Please. Thank you.
The thumbnail has a typo
Two Weapon Fighting change not allowing non-light main hand at baseline before feats and fighting styles is mildly unfortunate, but in light of everything else? I think it sounds pretty darn juicy overall. I think the real winner here may actually be the Fighter: Eldritch Knight as getting the attacks integrated into the Attack Action will have very nice interplay with Haste and Action Surge. If they want to commit to the bit and invest their feats into bigger badder blades then more power to em.
Granted that's from the perspective of the 2014 version of the class. The Warrior Classes UA could change this.
Mechanically, the rogue feels really behind compared to other classes. Although the GWP and SS are now nerfed, I don't think they can really keep up with effectiveness the way Sneak attack scales. 10d6 might sound a lot on paper, but in actual play that's really underwhelming compared to what casters can do.
10d6 is so little damage it is insulting by that level. It is low compared to what other martials can do as well. The argument of a skill monkey class pains me to hear when they are forced to compete with bards and rangers which are nearly as good but with much more utility and damage options. Rogues aren't only bad mechanically but also numerically. Multiattack.... hunter's mark... I honestly don't know what WoTC are thinking. these changes aren't balanced. People love rogue for thematics but Rogues in 5E and in this play test are bad. They have no features to help them close the gap and with this new release it is obvious that closing the gap isn't doing to happen in fact it is going to widen if this keeps up.
Give them spiderclimb and maybe we can talk. The problem continues to be that spellcasters can break the rules from the earliest levels, while martials are scraping for any ability to engage with the environment. Sorry, not encouraged by these changes
I still wish the Rogue got Extra Attack at 5th level. As a non-caster class (subclasses TBD), it seems like a snub to the Rogue. It wouldn't break Sneak Attack because you can only proc that once on your turn anyways. The revised rules for dual-wielding (two attacks for one action if using Light weapons) is nice, but any class can do that now; for instance, a 5th level martial class like Barbarian can make 3 attacks (if using two Light weapons) with just an action.
No more Steady Aim (something like it moved from 2 to 13) and the option of getting a second Sneak Attack in (though with expensive buffing), and the way Hidden (Condition) works hurting them really hard relative to how all DMs I am aware have been dealing with Hide and Sneak Attack so far, and everything is just great in Rogue land? You really believe that? We (players en mase) do believe that? But it is nice that Ranger will be able to do a lot of it now. Jump also hurting -- add compensation for Hidden and Jump to Cunning Action and keep Steady Aim!
So far I'm loving the sound of all these changes so far!
Can't ignore fact they nerfed the class by taking ability to sneak attack on a reaction away. You can only sneak attack on your turn.
The changes are actually awful as it takes a class that was already bad and makes it worse.
Rogue is my favourite too. I like fighter and barb.. but rogue has better mechanics. And .. ranger is the class I wish I liked.. because its flavourful and should be cool
Lets make whips light weapons that rogoues have access to, yes? They are the only class that could have use of them, and they dont get that proficiency
I hope the light weapons stuff stays in
I wish they'd have included all the subclasses. Especially the assassin, as that's the one that didn't work in the PHB.
I'm sure we'll see that in a later UA. Got a almost two years so it'll likely pop up.
@@KevinVideo Probably closer to a year.
If they're going for a July 2024 release they'll need to get the books sent to the printer in April. That means getting a proof printed in March, and layout finished in February.
As such, They'll probably be writing the books in November 2023. That means locking in feedback prior.
I'm guessing we can expect new class playtest packages in December, February, and April. Then other packages in July and September, and maybe one final one after.
I'm not seeing anybody talk about the huge shadow nerfs that came to the Rogue's Sneak Attack. You can't sneak attack on opportunity attacks or reaction attacks. You can't sneak attack on weapon cantrips like booming blade or green flame blade. Not to mention that they nerfed Thief, one of the worst subclasses in the game, by removing their ability to use mundane items as bonus actions.
The fact that they think the rogue is in a good position really informs my fears about the fates of the other martials in this edition. They know nothing about their own game other than popular opinion. They gutted the feats that made weapon users viable, buffed the feats that spellcasters are taking, and now we're going to see an edition where spellcasters are going to dominate the game even further.
Why DID you ever remove the level 6 rogue subclass feature? It was in the NEXT playtest. It's back in this playtest. How did it not make it into the PHB?
So if I’m a lvl 5 Ranger with 2x Shortswords/Daggers I can attack with both twice, basically getting 4 attacks that turn?
I find it disingenuous how Wizards praise the buffs they gave the Rogue, while omitting pretty much all the ways they nerfed them:
- the biggest one is that Sneak Attack will work ONLY on your turn and ONLY when you use attack action. Wanted to use Booming Blade and sneak attack? Nope! Wanted to Ready an Action to sneak attack when enemy jumps out of cover? Nope! Wanted to use Commander Strike or opportunity attack to sneak attack? Nope! This makes their damage lesser, and the game itself shallower, as it doesn't allow teamwork or cleverness to be rewarded.
- Given how many of Tasha's optional features are included in baseline ranger, we can assume those are going away... AIM ACTION INCLUDED. Bring back the aim action!
- Thief got smashed into the ground. First, he looses the ability to use an object as cunning action. Caltrops, Ball Bearings, putting poison on a blade? Nah, too useful!
- They loose the ability to use magic items belonging to other classes
- Replacing the extra turn 1/combat with extra bonus action would be alright if at-will, but making it LIMITED RESOURCE on a class that is supposed to have always-on abilities? That's a HUGE nerf.
Would a dual wielding rogue with extra attack from multiclassing (say, into fighter) have 4 attacks? If so, what happens after an action surge? 8 attacks in one round? A thief with 5 monk levels could potentially attack 8 times as well. 4x with light weapons and 4 times with flurry of blows using both bonus actions.
The current wording for the Light weapon property restricts the extra attack to once per round, so it only adds one attack per round total to whatever attack routines you're currently doing (Fighter 5/Monk 2 can make 7 attacks with action surge and bonus action unarmed strikes, instead of 6, for example)
@@Silvercrys3467 thank you! Still very cool.
Shortsword [Light Weapon]. I have not problems with weapons just being changed to Simple, Martial, and Exotic. Range weapons would be folded into these three categories. Exotic weapons would be firearms.
Rogue: "You don't see me, now you do, but only 'cause I want you to."
Now I have a question tools work differently they give you advantage now instead of the normal bonus as in 5e if you put one of your expertise is in like thieves tools does something new happen or are you no longer to put expertise into tools?
The expertise feature no longer says you can apply it to tool proficiency.
But you can use a skill roll and say you have tool proficiency to get advantage. Expertise+advantage y using 2 proficiencies
Really digging the thief vibe. Sounds really cool.
They are really going to ignore the fact that sneak attack is now only applicable during your turn?
Pack tactics at 13th level softens the blow of what they did to kobold enjoyers.
I feel like dexjumping should be an all rogues thing
honestly I hope they take a look at assassin, lvl 3 I think is fine, but some other of the skills kind of feels bad.
I'm going to be honest...I feel like they just gut punched rogues and stole their lunch money. Making sneak attack only work on your turn when you attack? So I can't ready an attack to sneak at just the right moment let alone punishing enemies who move. Then taking one of the best things they had, having the most and best expertise options and just giving the same to everyone else and giving them nothing in return? So now I can play a bard and be basically just as good at skills as a rogue but get spells to help solve problems that I can't skill my way out of...why even play a rogue if these changes stay.
can even get a discount sneak attack if you play college of whispers
I love everything described here about the new rouge.
I do still think that rogues need some kind of core mechanic that they can use to support other members of their party though.
Rogues are great, but the way they’re designed incentivizes very selfish play, and I would like them to encourage collaborative play a bit more.
Perhaps using cunning action to take the help action? Fits in with distracting an enemy.
Rogue's utility to the party is their skill usage and reliable damage.
@@benry007 I like that idea.
Unfortunately, the Mastermind Rogue has that feature already, and it’s bad because rogues already get more out of their bonus actions mathematically than any other class, so using it for the help action is almost always a strategically bad decision.
I would modify it further, so that an attack that benefited from a rogue’s help action would also get to deal the rogue’s sneak attack damage.
In other words, I think it would be really cool if Rogue’s could share their sneak attack with other characters.
@@safarfsaf but with regards to the spotlight, those are selfish things. They’re moments where the rogue gets to be cool, not where the rogue enables other characters to be cool.
I would argue that for a healthy game every single class should have at least one tool to set other players up to have cool moments.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 I think that is too strong. Plus it would make the rogue feel week because your team mate now basically gets your main feature for free. Also I would just scrap or redesign the mastermind.