I noticed that the car with higher engine torque actually makes less torque to the wheels across similar RPM ranges as the vehicle with less torque and higher horsepower. What this tells me is that the shorter gearing for the 8,000 rpm engine actually more than compensates for its lack of low/mid range torque. I also noticed that the lower hp car greatly falls off in torque later in its operating range, meanwhile the higher horsepower engine stays at its torque peak much longer up until redline. If you took two engines and said you want to make 450 hp at redline with both, and set the redline to 5,000 for one engine and 8,000 for the other, the 8,000 rpm engine would only need to make roughly 295 foot pounds of torque at 8,000 rpm to make it happen. But if you wanted to make that horsepower at 5,000 rpm, you’d need to make roughly 473 foot pounds of torque! Gear reduction and weight also makes a huge factor, and this is typically why trucks make mountains of torque but not a lot of horsepower. They have lower operating RPMs and are designed to make peak torque sooner, which typically means the engine doesn’t breathe very well at higher rpm’s, making less torque and therefore making less horsepower.
Yeah. What you mentioned about the torque curves is always like that. Torquey engines always keep their torque all across their rpm range while high hp usually have torque at mid to high rpm. This is an eternal discussion. But it will always be TORQUE and where at the rpm curve the thing that will win most races and make a car fun to drive. I've ridden my dad's 750 cfmoto, 75hp. Fast? Surely. Scary? Not so. Compared to the honda XR600 everything is slow and boring even if it's faster at the longer run. You will never grow tired of that torque snap/pull you get when stomping on the accelerator of a torque monster. Besides. Hp is just a math result. A stupid number that usually don't tell a thing about a car's behavior.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 Indeed, a lot of people just look at peak HP and don’t care to look at HP across the entire rev range. A nice, flat torque curve will always feel better than a peaky engine that comes alive after 4,000 RPM, provided they have similar peak horsepower. This is why old (stock) VTEC Hondas feel gutless at low rpm’s, they peak at like 140-160 pound feet of torque, but that torque carries into the RPMs of 6500+, so peak horsepower ends up being 170-200. Almost feels like the engine is completely asleep until it reaches its torque band.
@@skrimpdick5583 exactly, and in this the so call power car has a ridiculously flat torque curve, while the torque car has a pretty peaky torque curve, not taking in to account the rpm differences you mentioned in your first comment. v10's are known for more torque than a v8 so imo the more fair comparison would have been to have the v10 be the torque car and the v8 be the power car. A real world example of this is the viper. That v 10 will punch way above it's weight class in drag racing bc of how flat and high it's torque is. it's already 300 torque at 2500 rpm and gets to 400 just after 4000 and stays there basically the rest of the rpm range, only dropping down to 350 after 7500 rpm.
@@Nesten321 Yea it almost feels like they’ve essentially compared a truck motor (early torque, low rpm and hp) to a performance engine (wide torque curve, high peak horsepower).
Power (HP) and torque (ft-lbf) go hand in hand. Torque is a force; power is a measurement of the work that force performs over time, in this context the revolutions of a crankshaft. One standard horsepower is equal to 33,000 pounds of force per minute, so if that massive amount of torque turns the crankshaft just once in 60 seconds, 1 horsepower of work has been performed. Comparison: A large truck engine may produce 800hp at 1,500 RPM. It won't set any records on the quarter mile, but it can easily haul 80,000lb without breaking a sweat. Conversely, an IndyCar motor could produce that same 800hp, but at 15,000 RPM, and has about the same torque as a V6 Camry.
That's true, and remember that, since hp measures work done, you can turn that work into it's most appropriate form for the application, an F1 engine can totally haul tons with the proper gear ratio, but a low power engine, even with tons of torque can't do the same. They don't use small engines on big trucks because of vastly different reasons, like durability and maintenance.
@@jaselvd The whole point of this analogy is ease of effort. You can make my 86 or RX8 tow each other but you have to go out of your way to make sure they do it safely for themselves. Same goes for those Lifted 3500s that don't ever tow anything, it's a bitch to get them in enough shape to pull on the average Z or Skyline but will haul 2 of those trumpets each.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 They're entirely different in behavior because if the rest of the machine. Have an FF and FR with the same power to weight, dimensions, gearing and engine the FR will accelerate faster, reach higher speeds and corner and brake better. There's more than one thing to look at other than just the dynograph. There's under 300whp Rotary Engines being 10 second cars out there after all.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 It still gets jumbled my head. So tell me what I'm getting wrong here: So what determines the force on your back wheel at the end of the day is the torque on that wheel, and thats what you are after... and your high horsepower engines are taking advantage of (I guess their RPM and i wanna say the engine/crankshaft momentum that comes with that?), and then, levying a relatively heavy reliance on the transmission to gear itself for optimum torque on the wheel for a given speed, and in doing all of this can get an equal amount of torque to the back wheel as a heavier, high torque, low rpm engine could. Good for weight, but bad for longevity.
Saying torque vs HP is ridiculous. Two different things, two units of measurement, one depends on the other. One is a force, the other is a measure of the rate work can be done. There's no way to fairly compare the two because there no way TO compare the two. It's like comparing mass vs gravity.
This is problem depending on who is looking at it. You will have mechanics and car guys see it aa two different things while people understanding physics can't dissociate the two because they are in the same equation. None is "superior" to the other, it all depends on which one the engine is built to prioritize and how the transmission will compensate for the other.
@@jcw5288 yup, except it's even sillier in this case. It's like saying Voltage vs wattage. Wattage is the result of voltage * amperage. Voltage on its own won't give you any wattage, amperage won't flow without a voltage differential. Much in the same way torque with no movement is just a force with no power, and you can get anything to spin without a torque being applied. But yes, perfect example!
@@RealLeskot Torque is important for launch and for accelerating out of corners. In the 60's when Carroll Shelby said that, there was a lot of effort put into having the highest power output, but the engines were frequently lacking in torque, so they were slow to get up to speed. Shelby's engine tunes still pushed for horsepower, but didn't neglect torque. We see something similar with rally cars in the 80's and 90's. 80's Group B cars had massive horsepower numbers, but horrible torque bands, while 90's Group A cars had more focus put on having a good torque band for a given power output. Despite having 2/3 the peak power of late Group B cars, Group A cars were faster.
@@brokenursa9986 So basically, torque doesn´t win races, but HP with enough torque. I´m not saying you don´t know your shit, i just hate when people see black and white. F1 cars have less torque then most commuters and they are fast enough. Back in the day of Carrol, even "There is no replacement for displacement" could be argued, as americans couldn´t produce a effective engine, so they resorted to making insane displacement numbers, although anyone arguing with that nowdays is just invalid. It´s the same reason group a is faster then group b. Efficiency. Back in the 80´s they barely knew how to make this powerful cars, most of them were coffins on wheels. Lancia had to twin charge their cars, although nowdays, there is no need for that. If you take a look at what boost they were pushing, you would be able to make much, much better power nowdays with the same boost numbers. Torque isn´t meaningless and it´s directly tied to HP, but there is areason why there aren´t any diesel sports cars and why most track cars go for RPM over torque. (Exceptions to be made here, Americans love their overstroke design, i´m looking at you, Viper.) So, yes. i Agree with you in some points, but i disagree at torque winning races. But hey, as long as you are happy, torque is fun too. :)
@@brokenursa9986 "Torque is important for launch and for accelerating out of corners." is bs. Only power matters. Basically an engine is an energy pump. How much energy per time is converted is power. So first of all: What is torque in an engine? The torque of an engine is just the cross product between the force of the explosion for all cylinders and the leverage of the connection rod on the crank shaft (basically the projection of the distance between crank shaft and connection with the connection rod onto the x-y-Plane). This varies for a cylinder depending on the angle of the crank shaft. So the torque that manufactures show is the average torque of all cylinders for a single revolution of the crank shaft. But the higher the engine revs the more often this torque is applied. Torque is the equivalent of force except for rotation. And rotational velocity (yes, a vector) is the equivalent for velocity for rotation. So torque times the rate (dim=T^-1) the torque is applied is equivalent to the derivative of the path integral for the traveled distance of the connection between the connection rod and crankshaft with respect to time d(∫F ds)/dt. This simplifies for constant F to Fv = M*λ where M is the torque and λ the rate of applied torque (aka RPM but without any unit system like SI). So we get the power of an engine as the product of the average torque per cycle with the cycles per time. Back to the term energy pump: The power can be understood as the rate of change of energy which (with some loss in transmission) directly translates into change of kinetic energy of the car, kinetic energy of the air and heat due to air friction. The acceleration of a car is then only given by the power, mass and coefficient of friction. Of course we have also traction at the wheels which is limited by the tire material and the normal force (and heat, tire wear etc.). The wheels can only sustain a maximum torque. But what is the torque at the wheels? It's given by the torque of the engine multiplied by the gear ration and final drive. Let's assume a curve f(λ). The first engine revs from 0 to R and has a torque curve if 2*T_0*f(λ). The second engine revs from 0 to 2R and has a torque curve T_0*f(λ). At the wheels we multiply the engine torque with the gear ratio (Let's ignore any losses). For the low reving engine we chose a final gear ratio of G and for the high reving engine we change the final gear ratio to G/2. Wheeltorque_low_rev: G*T_0*f(λ) Wheeltorque_high_rev: 2*G/2*T_0*f(λ)=G*T_0*f(λ). The rational speed of the wheel is then given by λ*G for the low reving car and λ*G/2 for the high reving car. But λ can also get twice as high for the high reving car exactly compensating the smaller final gear. Our conclusion is that acceleration is given by the power and mass (and some annoying friction stuff) or the wheel torque. Wheel torque depends on max RPM, torque and final gear ratio canceling for engines that have the same torque characteristic except one engine revs C times as high but has 1/C times less torque when the final gear of the higher reving car is 1/C. Basically the higher torque cancels with the different gear ratio and the higher RPM also cancels with the gear ratio. Both cars will have the same acceleration and topspeed. What changes is the torque. But what's invariant? The power.
Here's what I learned while playing Automation. Torque itself isn't relevant for sporty performance. But where that Torque is on the RPM range surely is. An engine that has peak 400nm of Torque at 2000 rpm will have about 200-300 HP, meanwhile an engine that has the same 400nm peak at 8.000 RPM will have about 600 horsepower. Because horsepower is a measurement of how many times torque was applied over time.
it's always about power, since torque is converted in the gearbox and drivetrain. engine torque itself means nearly nothing. wheeltorque is the number that matters.
@@ntl9974 via gearing, and horsepower is what tells you what product of engine torque and gearing you can make use of. An engine making 300ftlb of torque at 3000rpm is providing the same output force as an engine making 300ftlb at 6000rpm, but you could use gearing thats twice as advantageous at the same wheel speed, which means twice the wheel torque, which means twice the potential acceleration
@@ntl9974 gear ratios. Say 1st gear has a ratio of 5:1, 2nd gear has a ratio of 4:1. You have a 300Nm engine. Gear ratios work as multipliers so if you're in 1st gear: 300Nm from engine on a 5:1 gearing gives you 5x torque on the wheels = 1500Nm on wheels. 2nd gear: 300Nm from engine on a 4:1 multiplier for gearbox = 1200Nm on wheels. That's why you accelerate faster on lower gears
Torque is not important, The only result that matters is power, we can get the same power with more torque or more rpm, The only utility of high rpm is to get light engine (supercar and performance) but there are more wear with high rpm, so we use torque on truck for less wear, a high rpm engine on truck can work same as a torque engine but with fast wear and more hard to use with the clutch 👍🏻👍🏻
I always say this with it comes to this. A Ebike with a top speed of 30mph that you pedal makes as much or more torque than a 600cc sport bike that has a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds and a top speed of 150mph. In other words torque figuers alone tell almost nothing about what performance is like of a vehicle
Having a bike and a diesel, but not a diesel motorcycle…interesting test. Biggest thing is the “area under the curve” of the dyno graph. Plus the V8 sounded awesome. Also engines wear out. More rpms faster wear.
Area under the curve is useful only when you have a transmission with relatively few, widely spaced ratios. An ideal CVT wouldn't care about narrow power bands.
It's straightforward: higher torque wins at the same RPM and final drive. Turns out that "big" engines make torque easier but can't rev as high as "smaller" revvy engines. Torquey V8s can be used in supercars as long as you adjust your gearing to match, just look at the Corvette C8, pretty low redline but the torque and proper gearing makes it a competitive supercar.
That 6.2l OHV V8 in the Stingray makes less than 100hp/L so it's hardly what you would call a good engine, look at the difference between the Stingray and the ZO6, engineering an engine correctly matters, and having a revvy V8 with DOHC will always beat out it's bumbling OHV counterparts.
@@bzilla1090 can you explain throughly why hp/liter matters? Cause as far as I know it’s the most pointless stat ever. Weight per power what matters. And in that regard you cannot beat an “old” ohv design. Just compare an s85 with an ls3. Both were introduced around the same time, the ls has more power, more compact, lighter, cheaper to make, and to mod, and way more durable. Downsides? Well I guess if big revs defines sports cars for you, ls engines are not what you should look after. But other than that it’s perfect.
@@horvathr95 it's not what defines hp/l matters when you are building race cars, high revving engines are staple of motor racing so if you don't understand homologation and rules set in place for certain disciplines then what I have to say is completely lost to you, so I'll dump it down, where I'm from we have touring car races, in the past the engine capacity cap was set at 2.0l naturally aspirated power, in order to make power from an engine you need to increase combustion, which means more air and fuel. Let's use the GM C20XE which for a very long time had the world record for Torque/L, it was used in the Opel Kadett/Vauxhall Astra, for homologation purposes a Cosworth head was added and cam profiles were tweaked, the result, an engine that held the record for the most torque per litre of 114nm for naturally aspirated cars, a record that was only recently broke by the Ferrari 458, higher revs = more power, OHV engines have a heavier valve train, and only 2 valves, which makes it harder to effectively use them in racing conditions when you are always driving at the peak of the vehicles ability, and this is where OHC engines require less maintenance, no valve adjustments for mechanical roller lifters, so when it's endurance racing or proper track racing, an OHV engine just isn't viable. Which is why GM switched from OHV to OHC engines for the Corvette C8R.
Until the revvier car downshifts and suddenly has more torque at the wheels. Theres a reason the z06 uses a smaller, higher revving engine than the stingray. Also more rpm, with todays engines easily capable a breaking traction in lower gears means less shifting, and therefore more time accelerating. Theres a reason motorsport vehicles near universally have high redlines.
Horsepower always wins, it's literally the measurement of amount of work done. You can use gearing to get wheel torque. (Way more important than flywheel torque)
@@rajeshbedi No it doesn't. Study the mathematical formula for how horsepower is calculated. It's literally the rating of how much an engine is able to do something. 1 horsepower and 1,000 ft lbs of torque isn't winning a short race unless it's racing a turtle.
The torque can be seen as a force while power is force multiplied by speed. So if the torque can be maintained at a high level all the way up, that's what you call power.😉
Assuming everything else equal horsepower will always win a race. Torque at high rpm is what allows you to take advantage of gearing and keep torque at the wheel as high as possible. Horsepower IS torque at rpm.
I find torquey engines are easier to catch a slide because it doesn't instantly make the wheels spin up to 150mph. They kind of just rotate at a manageable and correctable speed.
I couldn’t help but notice the “Torque” car was hamstrung by almost exactly 10% in regards to gearing and RPM. At least for what I would consider an apples to apples comparison. I still think the “Hp” car would have edged out, but not so dramatically.
There seem to be more variables at play when it comes to this topic. The simulator uses other specs(variables) to achieve each result. I love you video! Thank you!
Torque is best usually in a lot of scenarios if tuned/built right. However top end and traction(with enough torque for the tire) are it’s only downsides. The V8 was slower 0-60 because you can see the TC kick in, if the car had more traction it would’ve been much closer if not faster. A real life example I tried was racing a naturally aspirated 98 Nissan 300Z with a 5 speed manual against my 98 Nissan Maxima with the 4speed auto. If you don’t know the 2 cars have the exact same engine just tuned different basically, the 300Z made about 15-20 more hp(going off of memory from 10 years ago almost lol) but made like 10 ft lb less torque but my car was also maybe 200lbs lighter, but his manual puts more power to the ground so pretty even race. From a roll(we didn’t do a dig) it was pretty close but I beat him by about a car or 2. Had we been doing top speed run I’m sure he would’ve eventually caught up. This same reason is why 5 speed chargers and challengers are almost as fast in the low end as the 8 speed, same power but longer gears, but the 8 speed is faster at speed. 5 speed has better traction to help and long gears to stay in torque band and 8 speed is a lot easier to spin the tires resulting in more difficult launch but the gearing really helps it keep pulling hard in the top end. Also torque is more fun 😜
i like that you tried to hide the fact that you are a amerifat with your v8 motor by making an example of 2 nissans 🤣 i would have believed you if you didnt start talking about muh charger and muh challenger farther down
@@SlyNine not necessarily it all depends on the drive train losses if you have 2 cars with the exact engine tuned the same the one with a longer drivetrain would lose more power because of the friction losses in said drivetrain for example the old nissan gx coupe and the 1400 sedan had the exact same engine but the gx was a tad shorter wheelbase wise and had about a .5% of the power more than the 1400
Enzo Ferrari once said torque wins the race, horsepower sells the car. Clearly he was an idiot because he ignored Ferruccio Lamborghini’s advice on how to make his clutches better, which prompted Ferruccio to create a car brand so beloved that it’s a household name across the globe.
Yeah, thats it. People don't understand this fucking simple formula, and trying to giving examples like "Oh, my uncle has a diesel, it smokes Ferraris".
u can’t have hp without torque and if u make torque you gonna produce hp. Just like multiplication is the results of multiple additions. This is why everyone needs to study basic math, it’s the basic of logic.
@@fifossucrilhos like torsion bar suspension, just gravity. Time is always a thing. No time, no speed, no work done, no power, yet we can’t even understand time.
@@fifossucrilhos You can't make torque without rotation.... Torque is the analog for twisting force. But good try :D Edit: Shit, I stand corrected, You can make torque without rotation, for example... a blocked electric motor that is powered produces torque, while not moving. :)
@@tomshepard9050 I’m just saying that in a static system where all forces are in equilibrium, you can have torque without rotation. For example if you try to pedal your bicycle while locking the rear wheel with the brake you have torque but zero power. Torque is just a force but in angular terms. Power = Force x Velocity in linear terms and Power = Torque x Revs in angular terms.
Horsepower, weight, and traction tell you what you want to know. The key is the entire power band not just the peak. Torque is irrelevant. More HP more faster, more acceleration, more pulling power. If you think otherwise you don't understand what a gear box does.
Without torque it's useless For example Porsche 992 Turbo has 650 HP and 850 Nm of torque And Porsche GT2RS has 690 HP and 750 Nm of torque So yes on Similar surface with 100% traction The 992 Turbo S is gonna beat GT2RS at 1/4 mile But on top end yeah the top end GT2RS wins But 992 turbo S is heavier than GT2RS that's making the difference If you take Mercedes AMG GTR black Series it has 730 HP and 800 Nm of torque But 992 Turbo S will beat That Mercedes AMG GTR black Series In drag race rolling race turbo S will win I don't know why is that Also Porsche Porsche Taycan Turbo S has Less HP And Torque than Tesla Model S cheetah stance And Taycan is heavier too but Taycan turbo S smokes Tesla Model S cheetah stance Not only torque and Horsepower matters Gearing matters as well Like McLaren 720s beats Ferrari 488 Pista Pista has same HP and it's lighter But 720s beats 488 pista the reason is the gearing In Rolling race McLaren 720s beats Porsche 918 Spyder and a Ferrari LaFerrari 😂 Just imagine LaFerrari makes 963 HP and Weights 1400 KG wet McLaren 720s makes 710 HP and Weights 1450 Kg But still 720s beats LaFerrari in terms of acceleration Dobre cars raced Ferrari LaFerrari and Porsche 918 Spyder 918 Spyder beat LaFerrari in every rolling race And when someone raced Porsche 918 Spyder Vs The McLaren 720s The 720s was pulling away I don't know why But 720s is a fast car Definitely faster than a LaFerrari
@@Smzxe let's say at 100rpm the engine produces 100 lbf-ft and at 200rpm the engine produces 75 lbf-ft. It'll always be better to be at 200rpm, 100 vs 150lbf-ft. Because the gear ratio will double the torque. The gear box is a torque multiplier, and it's torque at the wheels that matter. HP tells you where you're going to get the most torque at the wheels.
@@SlyNine why the 992 turbo S has more torque than HP This is why turbo accelerates so quick Torque will help in acceleration HP maybe on top end I don't knoe
@@Smzxe with respect, it's as if you think there are two different forces acting on the car. There is just one force, that's torque at the wheels. Engine torque won't tell you whats happening at the wheels. Unless you have only one gear. But in any given instance, if you can shift down and get more HP, the car will go faster. It will have more torque at the wheels.
@@SlyNine ehm physics is wrong here Porsche Taycan turbo S has less HP less torque and more weight than Tesla Model S cheetah stance But Taycan turbo S beats Tesla Model S cheetah stance in drag race or rolling race Why is that? 😂
I think the only case where you need a lot of both are specialty cases like firetrucks (high torque to get the thing moving and high power to run the hydraulic boom, water pumps, and the mechanical siren on the front) and farm tractors (high torque to haul trailers and pull equipment, high power to run any PTO-dependant equipment and hydraulics)
Absolutely irrelevant comparison. HP is a function of torque and torque itself only matters what RPM range its operating in. 600 torque at 8k rpm is million times better than 1000 torque at 2000k rpm Also HP and Torque are always related as HP is calculated from torque and RPMs, so the question "what is better?" is absolutely stupid. Most people forget that 600hp is just a peak number at specific rpm. The Imagine a stuck wheel nut, you try to loosen it with a 1 feet bar and step on the end, but it wont budge. Here is an example where we have 200lbft torque and you are going nowhere as there is no RPM.
the torque motor is running at a loss, fighting itself at that speed where power is dropping off. Where as the rev motor can keep up it’s max tq at the limit.
Torque is the only measurable force. Hp is just torque x rpm divided by 5252 Therefore we can call hp the ability to make torque at higher rpm Why is that good you might ask? When you can spin the engine faster and still make torque you can keep turning a lower gear ratio instead of having to shift up and put less torque to the ground.
@@SlyNine also some cars are heavier and make less hp while still being faster than a lighter more powerful car because the heavier makes more torque on average through the rpm range or has gobs of torque off idle and can hold onto it up to 6k rpm. Every hp or tq number you see on a cars stats is only peak. Not average
I think the torque top speed run could've been faster if the gearing was set so that it reaches max torque at top speed. Not sure though and i'd have to try it myself.
Itll put the most force to the wheels at peak horsepower. Horsepower can literally be read as torque the the ground, as the same engine torque but at a higher rpm, and therefore more hp, can use a lower gear ratio at the same speed, the mechanical advantage of which means more applied torque at the whesls.
Jesus does no one understand torque 🤦♂️ Power to the ground is how fast you're gonna go. Simple physics. Torque really affects the horsepower curve. But ultimately it's the horsepower under the curve (rpm range that it's geared for) that wins races. Doesn't matter what it's peak torque is
This is a pretty bad comparison since they have far different rpm ranges. If you really wanted a fair comparison then you could use the files to modify a single engine for both torque and power.
@@patryks6451 Thats not how it works Rpm can only increase if you want to change the engine or something im not a engineer i just know some things about cars also Horse power=top speed Torque=how fast you Accelerate uphill and on flat ground (That's how it works in real life not in games) Nothing about these change Rpm proof is this video ua-cam.com/video/NkIO08dlg_s/v-deo.html
To be a fair comparison you have to compare the same engine witch develop same HP (for example 5.0 liter, v8 or V10) but one might be NA (so you'll need to reach higher rpm) vs the other one with a turbocharger/supercharger. This one will rev lower but will have way more torque.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 A fair comparison in Real life could be: 2004 Golf GTI (2.0l turbo 4cyl 200cv at 5100rpm) vs 2004 Honda Civic Type R (2.0l NA 4cyl 200cv at 7400rpm).
Peak horsepower and torque numbers are meaningless. It's more important on what rpm and for how long the torque is available, until peak horsepower takes effect. An engine that makes peak torque early on will feel nice and powerful, but if peak horsepower comes in too soon and then falls on its face, it will feel quite under powered if revved out. It's like a lot of these eco 4 cyl 2.0 turbo engines that basically every car manufacturer is using. They give you all the power early, but they don't like to be revved out and feel slow if you do rev it out.
Yep. But it's all still about power. But it's the power band that matters. Engine torque numbers are meaningless and peak hp is meaningless. The power curve tells you a lot more. But even that isn't enough.
Not quite... the torque is about how fast the accerleration is done. The hp is the power required to reach any speed. I had a test run with an Audi A5 2.0 tfsi (211hp quattro) and bmw 325i (218 hp): both cars at same speed in 2nd gear about 30 mph then accelerate to 62 mph-> Audi was the first reaching 62mph while the bmw needed longer. I choose torque over hp which made me win.
HP is the product of TQ and RPM. The more TQ you make at a given RPM the more HP you will make. This is why cars with less TQ that rev higher make HP at high RPM as RPM has a multiplier effect on the TQ. The best of both worlds is a high TQ high RPM engine which is complicated because TQ is generally limited to bore/stroke/specific cam profile which all work against building a high RPM engine. The faster the piston speed per crank revolution and the heavier the components in motion the more likely the engines going to fall apart. The bottom line when building an engine is there is more than one way to eat a reese's, what matters most to you?
Torque is only one of the two factors that determine horsepower. If the engine that can produce 600 Ft-Lb of torque turns at exactly 5,252.1131 RPM, it produces exactly 600 HP.. If you look at ANY dyno sheet, you will ALWAYS see the cross-over point at ~5,252 RPM. That's because 33,000 divided by 2X Pi (6.2831853)=5,252.1131. To determine the horsepower of any engine or motor, you must multiply the two factors, torque X RPM, then, divide by the constant 5,252.1131, and that's your horsepower. comparing torque to horsepower is no different than comparing RPM to horsepower. You need BOTH factors, to determine horsepower.
@@ferrumignis You make a very good point. Also, beware, all the numbers I used are based on SAE horsepower, which is ~745.69987 watts of power. Beware of Metric Horsepower, which is ~735.499 watts. A metric horsepower is less than a SAE horsepower. Many foreign cars are rated in metric horsepower, but they are slightly less powerful than cars rated in SAE horsepower, though not by much. (~1.4% difference)
@@SlyNine Not arbitrary. When James Watt defined 1 Horsepower, he assumed that a big farm horse could average 550 foot-pounds of work per second, or, multiply that by 60 to equal 33,000 foot pounds of work per minute. Since an engine or a motor uses a rotary motion, the torque of the engine assumes a 1 foot radius from the center of the crankshaft. That means, a 2 foot in diameter wheel. To get to the constant, you divide the 33,000 foot pounds by 2Pi, to get the constant. Each full rotation of the wheel pulls the rope 6.2831853 feet. you need the same unit of time. Since engine speed is rated in revolutions per minute, I'm using the foot pounds per minute to get to the constant,5252.1131. Whenever you need to use 2Pi in a formula, add 3.1415926(truncated) to 201415927, (rounded up) to equal 2Pi. That allows you to get 9-digit resolution out of your 8-digit calculator.
Everyone always likes [INCORRECTLY] using the example of 180-220hp Hondas for why High HP cars are wimpy down low, when in reality those cars are slow at low revs because they're only making 10-20hp down low, it's not about torque which is a static measurement of simply weight (that ignores a lot of relevant things), if it ment more than that than 10,000 foot pound stream engine tractors would have insane acceleration, but they don't, not even for a second, because they only do like ten revs a minute, meaning that 10,000foot pounds needs to be divided by literally 800 if you geared it like an 8000rpm car (12.5ft-lbs) this mandatory gearing to get the same speed is whole reason why HP numbers mean so much more than torque because focusing on torque will mislead you, whereas HP is tied to RPM so you can look at the HP curve & have a number relative to possible amount of work TLDR; Torque doesn't show that you can have 222ft-lbs and that could be high performance because it revs to 9,200 or that same 222ft-lbs could be low performance because it revs to only 3,800, whereas HP would be proportionally higher with revs even if the torque was exactly the same throughout. Focus on HP per given RPM or the lump location of the power curve (not peak numbers), if it has high HP down low(for that RPM), it'll pull hard down low. If you're making 200hp @ 5000rpms, then at half the RPMs 2500rpms it would be healthy if you made half the power at 100hp, that's how you tell if you have linier acceleration or if it favours top end or bottom end The issue is folks don't understand how to read graphs and focus on one or two separate points, which you shouldn't do with torque because of how little it means without relation to RPM, hence the whole reason we use HP because you overlay HP curves and always know which is faster, you can't with torque because it's much more relative to gearing, whereas 200hp @ 8,000rpm using 5.0 Ratio Final Drive will pull exactly the same as 200hp @ 4,000rpm using a 2.5 Ratio Final Drive if they have the same HP curve overlay, but in this example if you judged them by their torque you'd have tricked yourself into thinking the 4000rpm engine was better because it would have twice the torque, so you see because everything in the end needs to be geared to spin at the same speed HP curve tells you everything regarding performance, whereas torque is essentially reading the displacement of the engine, AKA hardly insightful because if an engine is too big in the wrong ways it can literally be slower in every way even with a higher peak torque number (steam engine is a classic example, because pickup trucks can outperform them)
Most of what you said is good except the car making 200 hp at 8000 rpm with double the gearing will not pull the same as the 200 hp 4000 rpm car. It will be substantially faster.
@@berdmonte5370 the gearing makes the difference, if you gear both engines to be at the same vehicle speed but one engine is at 4000 rpm and the other is at 8000 rpm while both producing the same power than the one at 8000 rpm with be faster because it's has double the multiplication of power going to the wheels.
Horses are a function of twist and the speed of that twist. Torque is how hard you punch, RPM is how fast your fist flies, and HP is how hard you hit the wall.
Hp is how the engine uses torque at rpms. Torque is the force generated by engine combustion. Revvy engines multiply their torque for the number of engine cycles to go fast, resulting in a low power at low rmps and high power at higher rpms. Torquey engine have low rpm redline and use all the power al low rpm and speed. Revvy car results in a faster vehicle and torquey car results in a high traction vehicle .
The torque car has 600 torque at 3000rpm, then drops to 300 by redline. So the car is mostly doing 400-500 torque during the tests, not 600. The HP car's torque stays near 400 the whole time. So this was more of a test of similar torques and higher HP
ok so use peak torque rpm in car with mpre torque and less hp and it be slower and lose with biger diffrences than it lost in this simulation 😎🤭 1000 nm at 100 hp accelerate from 0 to 200 km/h in 1 ton car with cda 0,60 with perfect gearing in 40-50 sec the same car with 100 nm only at crsnk but with 1000 hp also with perfect gearing clock 0-200 km/h in 🌪️5 -6 sec 😂👌🏻☕️ any question ? 😎
Low Torque and Low Horsepower means it takes a while to get to 30 mph. High Torque and Low Horsepower means it takes very little time to get to 30 mph. Low Torque and High Horsepower means it takes a while to get to 150 mph. High Torque and High Horsepower means it takes very little time to get to 150 mph. Torque determines how fast a car accelerates. Horsepower determines the speed it will accelerate to.
low torque low hp yep , high torque and low hp nope , low torque high hp nope ,high torque high hp yep assuming we always deal with perfect gearing and huge traction which alllow vehicle to transfer huge force to the ground 😎👌🏻 now correct subcribes this theme 👉🏻 peak torque at engine crank determines peak acceleration AT SET GEAR in most egzample 👌🏻vs peak hp at engine crank determines peak acceleration AT SET SPEED in this case always cos in torque case come into play diffrent resist at diffrnt measured speed vs for hp resist is always the same cos speed stay the same 😎👌🏻 the same vehicle with less max engine crank torque and more max engine crank hp at perfect gearing always smoked version woth more crank engine max torque and less crank engine max hp also at perfect gearing both on acceleration in drag race take offcorner whatever what and on topspeed attempt 👌🏻 cos of this what im write earlier 😉👌🏻 couple formula subscribe this stuff why this happen 👉🏻 acceleration = force be all resist ,power:speed = force ,torque be leverage= force and power = work :time 😉👌🏻☕️
Hoesepower matters, but the lower rpm you can make the same horsepower the more efficent and the flatter(wider) the powerband is. The v8 only had 410 hp, while the v10 had nearly 600 hp. Unless you had a 600 hp map for the v8, it's not a fair comparision. If it was the same, what you'd see is the huge powerband of the torque that the v8 has, and despite having the same peak output, the v8 would pull ahead immediately and keep it's lead.
Your Viper smashes, because it has more Horsepower. If you have Torque @ any RPM, that means you have more Horsepower at that RPM. You can't see 1.000 ft.lb @ 4.000 RPM but 25 Horsepower, thats stupid and impossible. Your car creates more torque even at lowest RPM, that gives you more Horsepower than your opponent.
your viper be beat almost be each sports car with lesss torq and more power so whats the point 🤷🏻♂️ your viper smashes other vehicle cos have more power not torq 👌🏻hers egzample honda cb 350 rs 30 nm at 3000 rpm 21 hp at 5500 rpm 0-100 km/h 15 sec os 👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/hekURimQl10/v-deo.html vs kawasaki ninja 250 21 nm 8000 rpm 30 hp 11000 rpm 0-100 km/h 8 sec os 👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/Mwqs4rPnmg4/v-deo.html so vehicle with 30% less torque 👉🏻 ninja 250 have better acceleration than vehicle woth 30% less power 👉🏻cb 350 rs and its cos power :velocity = NEWTONS FORCE or thrust 🌪 whatever . + here is your viper 450 hp 650nm 1600 kg against ferrari 620 hp 600 nm 1750 kg dragrace start at 2:23 👌🏻 🤭👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/pbIx1SCA_nI/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdZmVycmFyaSBndGIgZmlvcmFubyBkcmFnIHJhY2U%3D like you see ferrari smoked viper with easy 👍🏻 ferrari is heavier have lesss torque but more power allow it to accelerate faster push driver stronger into seat 😧 thats how work formula watt:m/s = NEWTONS force 👌🏻 more torque mean only you need less revs to achive specifed power level lesss tprque mean you need more revv for achieve the same power levele it dosent matter which way you achive more power this which have more power dosent matter how from what type of engine setup higher or lower rpm higher or lower torque it dosent matter 🤭more power dosent matter how achieve beat this with less power assuming perfect gearing for each simialr weight all outside resist gearbox shifting time + enough grip asf you cant beat physique 😎 100 hp at lower torq beat 50 hp at 10 times biger torq but get smoked be 150 hp freeelllllly at lower ot higher torq dosent matter 🤷🏻♂️ civic type r 200 hp 200 nm beat 206 1,6 hdi 110 hp 260 nm but be smoked be civit type r turbo 320 hp 400 nm not because civic turbo have more torq what is irrelevsnt but because it have more POWER the same civic type r turbonversion 320 hp 400 nm be beat be civic type r n/a version tuning for let say 450 hp 350 nm with perfect gearing setup 🤷🏻♂️period
Both HP and torque are a result of a function of RPM, meaning both are capable of producing the same end result, but through different mechanical forces. You can go 200mph with high torque and low rpm and gearing, but you have to have internals that can withstand the rotating forces without failing, or you can go 200mph with low torque and higher gearing by utilizing higher rpm. Your internals don't have to be stronger per say, but they have to be lighter to resist self destruction at higher rpm. It's a balance game for either, but it's hard to test this in a game where you can't design each engine specifically for the task. Automation would be a much better game to test this. Create a car with two different drivetrain strengths, all other aspects equal, and import it into beamng.
Finally someone in this comment section that understands what this is. Horsepower = [ (Torque * RPM)/ 5252] Both can achieve exactly the same results assuming the transmission can compensate for the force you are not focusing.
@@ntl9974 Not sure if this was a question but if it was, yes. When at 5252 RPM both Torque and HP are equal, before that point torque is higher while past that point the faster rpm coupled with torque will result is greater Horsepower.
Almost but not quite. For a specific car to do a specific speed it will need a specific amount of horsepower. Same with acceleration. To accelerate a car at a specific rate requires a specific amount of power. We can calculate that figure. You can't do the same for torque, because torque alone is fairly meaningless. For it to have any context you have to know at what rpm the torque is achieved, at which point you are essentially talking about power... (Power=torque*rpm) The only reason we compare torque output for cars is because combustion engines tend to operate within a familiar rpm range. So the torque figure becomes shorthand for how much low end *power* an engine makes.
Engine torque only matters for the launch, as soon as the higher horsepower engine is in its power band in first gear it will be faster the rest of the time. Power is what matters not torque because the lack of engine torque is compensated for with gearing. With even a rudimentary idea of what power ‘is’ you would realize that this test is useless.
still. if you aint gonna get a good launch, it wont matter if your car has top end. you need to get out of the hole fast. why else would AWD diesel truck smoke supercars for lunch anyways?
And that still gives you a horse power number as soon as the wheels turn. In any scenario more horse power is better. Because, like you said, the gear box is what creates torque at the wheels. HP tells you what's happening at the wheels.
@@ntl9974 Acceleration*Speed*Mass=Power Torque cannot be used to define anything performance related. Check how the launch is performed. To get the best acceleration of course. ua-cam.com/video/AoDDODh5Ras/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/-RqMbaohYeY/v-deo.html
Torque is like muscle and force. Its the instant kick. HP is like stamina and power. It keeps u moving and with more hp, u go faster and faster until u reach ur top speed
Another iteration of Torque Vs Hp: Torque: The acceleration, what puts you back in the seat HP: Achievable speed (based on the HP) at the end of acceleration
@@berdmonte5370 "is never vs Hp" clearly you can't ready. Torque is not a direct comparison of horsepower. It's a completely different thing. Get a fucking brain
@@berdmonte5370 You don't even know the basics. It's a seriously simple idea of how it works in relation. This isn't a fucking math lesson. Nobody here gives a shit about that. If you think torque ISN'T how effective the power gets put out, then you're a dull cunt and I'm done wasting my time with you
I’ve seen a f350 (440 at crank 1000lb torque) STOMP a stang on nos (450-500 ish hp and tq). I was in the dusky. I imagine it was also more fun than the guy in the stang
Power is pulling power. High tourqe diesel engines make high power at low rpm and are reliable and fuel efficient so thats why they are generally used for heavy transport vehicles.
some engines have both. irl the weight of either drivetrain and gearing would decide the outcome. but in some cases just having high hp wouldn't work without a properly geared gearbox. for example . you would need something like a 60 gear gearbox for a 50 ton truck combination with a 2 liter diesel engine stage 6+ . if changing a gear takes 2s (relax driving) it would take 120s in gearchanges alone to reach 90km/h . a truck has 12 to 16 gears on average . because it has the torque to push through the load at low rpm. making it possible to skip gears . and be much faster with high torque . but you would never be able to start driving uphill . or have to stay in 1st gear . because 1st gear will be 0,x km/h and after 2s for the gearchange you would already be rolling backwards .
Torque is what is what is need to overcome the effort required in order to get something to move, keep moving or accelerate. Think of effort (work) as POWER (KW) and Torque (Leverage) as the Ease with which this power can get something to change it's current state. Basically. If you have lot's of torque but no power to apply to the torque, nothing get's moving! Likewise, If you have lot's of power but no torque (leverage) that this power can push against, nothing will be moving either!!! Power is literally the amount of work that is done in the engine's combustion chambers! That power pushes into the pistons and needs to be transferred through the con-rods, into the crankshaft, through the gears and into the wheels, This is torque! To make more torque in the engine, you can make your con-rod's longer (increase the piston stroke) which will give the engine an easier time to turn the crankshaft (which is useful for being more economical (up to a point)). But increased stroke also means that the crank rotation will tend to lower the RPM potential, which in turn results in decreased "rate of work" (KW) that can be generated in the cylinder. Typically more torque usually equates to less RPM which means a reduced rate of work that can be achieved, which means less KW. Modern engines can reclaim most of the lost work through forced induction, compression ratios, timing changes, injection techniques, etc! But they can do little against the "unwillingness" of longer stroke engines to rev as high as their shorter stroke brethren, without risking some reliability issues! Having said that, increased Torque greatly increases the ease in which the engine can turn the crankshaft!!! Depending on the application and the workload that needs to be lugged around, this will dictate which of these: Power or Torque, is more useful. There is often a fine balance between power and torque that needs to be considered to get the most out of a given situation! General Rule of thumb: the lighter the load that needs to be moved, the less Torque is required to make it move. Which is pretty obvious right? And hence, if less Torque is required, the engine components can be made smaller (shorter strokes), which results in the engine being able to run at higher RPM resulting in more work that the engine can do in the same time = more KW (Power)! Hence why Motorcycles have abysmal Torque figures compared to Cars, yet are extremely fast under acceleration! That's because they are so light: they don't require a lot of Torque (leverage) to get them moving and hence they have extremely short engine strokes which maximizes the rate of work (KW) generated in the engine's combustion chambers and thus can usually achieve much higher RPM (and KW) than car engines of similar displacement! Put that same motor cycle engine in a heavy SUV and the engine would easily stall. If you finally get it moving, it would strain and struggle, as the engine lacks the torque required to lug the mass of the SUV around town with any form of ease!!! Doing so would be extremely hard work for the engine, resulting in an excessively high fuel bill, engine wear and likely a premature engine failure!!! To say that Torque is better than Power is to say that water is more important for us than oxygen!!! Both are vital to get anything moving! The question is: what do you want to move and what are the performance vs economic equations to consider?
A little messy here. Engine is a machine that turns one type of energy into mechanical energy. In classical mechanics energy equals work. Work is force times displacement. And energy is basically what we think about it: fuel and battery charge. So in order to move a heavier object or to move it at a greater distance you simply need more fuel, and nothing more. Amount of work just shows you the amount of fuel needed to perform it. If work of pulling a feather full turn around the earth equals to pulling a house for a couple of blocks then it will require the same amount of fuel. And you don't need any specific engine to do both actions. Even a hamster in its wheel will do that, if you feed him with energy long enough. This is why force, torque and work are not needed from the engine's end. Power is the only characteristic that can describe engine properties. This is why people use engines : to make work FASTER, not just to make a work. To make a work, a simple machine is used. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine For example, using an inclined plane, people have built Giza Pyramids. It took 27 years estimated.
correct me if im wrong but isnt the only reason that torque isn't better in literally every scenario in real life because of the fact that you can only build engines and transmissions to handle so much torque before they break or you just have to build them much bigger and the added weight outweighs the performance gains? in other words, if we lived in a perfect world where rotating components of the engine and transmission were indestructible so you could build them all the same size and weight then wouldn't more torque always be better because you can just gear it differently to make it accelerate faster?
You failed with the basics. It is power that cannot be substituted with gearing, not torque. Torque output (a specific amount of it) of the engine is not required at all, by definition of the engine and why people use it.
Easily explained: Torque is what puts a smile on your face , Horse Power is what keeps it on your face .
This is well said
Nooe
My kind of explanation 😂
Facts
Would you rather have a car that makes more torque then horsepower or more horsepower than torque?
I noticed that the car with higher engine torque actually makes less torque to the wheels across similar RPM ranges as the vehicle with less torque and higher horsepower. What this tells me is that the shorter gearing for the 8,000 rpm engine actually more than compensates for its lack of low/mid range torque. I also noticed that the lower hp car greatly falls off in torque later in its operating range, meanwhile the higher horsepower engine stays at its torque peak much longer up until redline. If you took two engines and said you want to make 450 hp at redline with both, and set the redline to 5,000 for one engine and 8,000 for the other, the 8,000 rpm engine would only need to make roughly 295 foot pounds of torque at 8,000 rpm to make it happen. But if you wanted to make that horsepower at 5,000 rpm, you’d need to make roughly 473 foot pounds of torque! Gear reduction and weight also makes a huge factor, and this is typically why trucks make mountains of torque but not a lot of horsepower. They have lower operating RPMs and are designed to make peak torque sooner, which typically means the engine doesn’t breathe very well at higher rpm’s, making less torque and therefore making less horsepower.
Yeah. What you mentioned about the torque curves is always like that. Torquey engines always keep their torque all across their rpm range while high hp usually have torque at mid to high rpm.
This is an eternal discussion. But it will always be TORQUE and where at the rpm curve the thing that will win most races and make a car fun to drive.
I've ridden my dad's 750 cfmoto, 75hp. Fast? Surely. Scary? Not so. Compared to the honda XR600 everything is slow and boring even if it's faster at the longer run. You will never grow tired of that torque snap/pull you get when stomping on the accelerator of a torque monster.
Besides. Hp is just a math result. A stupid number that usually don't tell a thing about a car's behavior.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 Indeed, a lot of people just look at peak HP and don’t care to look at HP across the entire rev range. A nice, flat torque curve will always feel better than a peaky engine that comes alive after 4,000 RPM, provided they have similar peak horsepower. This is why old (stock) VTEC Hondas feel gutless at low rpm’s, they peak at like 140-160 pound feet of torque, but that torque carries into the RPMs of 6500+, so peak horsepower ends up being 170-200. Almost feels like the engine is completely asleep until it reaches its torque band.
@@skrimpdick5583 exactly, and in this the so call power car has a ridiculously flat torque curve, while the torque car has a pretty peaky torque curve, not taking in to account the rpm differences you mentioned in your first comment. v10's are known for more torque than a v8 so imo the more fair comparison would have been to have the v10 be the torque car and the v8 be the power car. A real world example of this is the viper. That v 10 will punch way above it's weight class in drag racing bc of how flat and high it's torque is. it's already 300 torque at 2500 rpm and gets to 400 just after 4000 and stays there basically the rest of the rpm range, only dropping down to 350 after 7500 rpm.
actually looking back at the power car, that torque curve looks surprisingly close to a viper's v10
@@Nesten321 Yea it almost feels like they’ve essentially compared a truck motor (early torque, low rpm and hp) to a performance engine (wide torque curve, high peak horsepower).
Power (HP) and torque (ft-lbf) go hand in hand. Torque is a force; power is a measurement of the work that force performs over time, in this context the revolutions of a crankshaft. One standard horsepower is equal to 33,000 pounds of force per minute, so if that massive amount of torque turns the crankshaft just once in 60 seconds, 1 horsepower of work has been performed.
Comparison: A large truck engine may produce 800hp at 1,500 RPM. It won't set any records on the quarter mile, but it can easily haul 80,000lb without breaking a sweat. Conversely, an IndyCar motor could produce that same 800hp, but at 15,000 RPM, and has about the same torque as a V6 Camry.
That's true, and remember that, since hp measures work done, you can turn that work into it's most appropriate form for the application, an F1 engine can totally haul tons with the proper gear ratio, but a low power engine, even with tons of torque can't do the same. They don't use small engines on big trucks because of vastly different reasons, like durability and maintenance.
@@jaselvd The whole point of this analogy is ease of effort. You can make my 86 or RX8 tow each other but you have to go out of your way to make sure they do it safely for themselves.
Same goes for those Lifted 3500s that don't ever tow anything, it's a bitch to get them in enough shape to pull on the average Z or Skyline but will haul 2 of those trumpets each.
Ya and nay. Power on a motorcycle engine might be the same than that of a big tractor in paper yet both are entirely different behaving engines
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 They're entirely different in behavior because if the rest of the machine. Have an FF and FR with the same power to weight, dimensions, gearing and engine the FR will accelerate faster, reach higher speeds and corner and brake better.
There's more than one thing to look at other than just the dynograph. There's under 300whp Rotary Engines being 10 second cars out there after all.
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 It still gets jumbled my head. So tell me what I'm getting wrong here: So what determines the force on your back wheel at the end of the day is the torque on that wheel, and thats what you are after... and your high horsepower engines are taking advantage of (I guess their RPM and i wanna say the engine/crankshaft momentum that comes with that?), and then, levying a relatively heavy reliance on the transmission to gear itself for optimum torque on the wheel for a given speed, and in doing all of this can get an equal amount of torque to the back wheel as a heavier, high torque, low rpm engine could. Good for weight, but bad for longevity.
Saying torque vs HP is ridiculous. Two different things, two units of measurement, one depends on the other. One is a force, the other is a measure of the rate work can be done. There's no way to fairly compare the two because there no way TO compare the two. It's like comparing mass vs gravity.
yep. People literally cannot understand the difference and it cringes me out when they compare them all the time
This is problem depending on who is looking at it.
You will have mechanics and car guys see it aa two different things while people understanding physics can't dissociate the two because they are in the same equation.
None is "superior" to the other, it all depends on which one the engine is built to prioritize and how the transmission will compensate for the other.
Yup, just like how people confuse electricity voltage and current. One is the potential, another is the result.
@@jcw5288 yup, except it's even sillier in this case. It's like saying Voltage vs wattage. Wattage is the result of voltage * amperage. Voltage on its own won't give you any wattage, amperage won't flow without a voltage differential. Much in the same way torque with no movement is just a force with no power, and you can get anything to spin without a torque being applied. But yes, perfect example!
@@nvcnc Yeah now try to explain to people how voltage, ampere, watts, hp and torque all fit in an EV car...
"Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races."
- Carroll Shelby
Most race cars are hp oriented. Torque is useless when you are in the top of the RMP range all the time. But on the street, it´s different.
@@RealLeskot Torque is important for launch and for accelerating out of corners. In the 60's when Carroll Shelby said that, there was a lot of effort put into having the highest power output, but the engines were frequently lacking in torque, so they were slow to get up to speed. Shelby's engine tunes still pushed for horsepower, but didn't neglect torque. We see something similar with rally cars in the 80's and 90's. 80's Group B cars had massive horsepower numbers, but horrible torque bands, while 90's Group A cars had more focus put on having a good torque band for a given power output. Despite having 2/3 the peak power of late Group B cars, Group A cars were faster.
@@brokenursa9986 So basically, torque doesn´t win races, but HP with enough torque.
I´m not saying you don´t know your shit, i just hate when people see black and white.
F1 cars have less torque then most commuters and they are fast enough.
Back in the day of Carrol, even "There is no replacement for displacement" could be argued, as americans couldn´t produce a effective engine, so they resorted to making insane displacement numbers, although anyone arguing with that nowdays is just invalid.
It´s the same reason group a is faster then group b. Efficiency. Back in the 80´s they barely knew how to make this powerful cars, most of them were coffins on wheels. Lancia had to twin charge their cars, although nowdays, there is no need for that. If you take a look at what boost they were pushing, you would be able to make much, much better power nowdays with the same boost numbers.
Torque isn´t meaningless and it´s directly tied to HP, but there is areason why there aren´t any diesel sports cars and why most track cars go for RPM over torque. (Exceptions to be made here, Americans love their overstroke design, i´m looking at you, Viper.)
So, yes. i Agree with you in some points, but i disagree at torque winning races.
But hey, as long as you are happy, torque is fun too. :)
@@brokenursa9986 "Torque is important for launch and for accelerating out of corners." is bs. Only power matters. Basically an engine is an energy pump. How much energy per time is converted is power. So first of all: What is torque in an engine? The torque of an engine is just the cross product between the force of the explosion for all cylinders and the leverage of the connection rod on the crank shaft (basically the projection of the distance between crank shaft and connection with the connection rod onto the x-y-Plane). This varies for a cylinder depending on the angle of the crank shaft. So the torque that manufactures show is the average torque of all cylinders for a single revolution of the crank shaft. But the higher the engine revs the more often this torque is applied. Torque is the equivalent of force except for rotation. And rotational velocity (yes, a vector) is the equivalent for velocity for rotation. So torque times the rate (dim=T^-1) the torque is applied is equivalent to the derivative of the path integral for the traveled distance of the connection between the connection rod and crankshaft with respect to time d(∫F ds)/dt. This simplifies for constant F to Fv = M*λ where M is the torque and λ the rate of applied torque (aka RPM but without any unit system like SI). So we get the power of an engine as the product of the average torque per cycle with the cycles per time.
Back to the term energy pump: The power can be understood as the rate of change of energy which (with some loss in transmission) directly translates into change of kinetic energy of the car, kinetic energy of the air and heat due to air friction. The acceleration of a car is then only given by the power, mass and coefficient of friction. Of course we have also traction at the wheels which is limited by the tire material and the normal force (and heat, tire wear etc.). The wheels can only sustain a maximum torque.
But what is the torque at the wheels? It's given by the torque of the engine multiplied by the gear ration and final drive.
Let's assume a curve f(λ). The first engine revs from 0 to R and has a torque curve if 2*T_0*f(λ). The second engine revs from 0 to 2R and has a torque curve T_0*f(λ). At the wheels we multiply the engine torque with the gear ratio (Let's ignore any losses). For the low reving engine we chose a final gear ratio of G and for the high reving engine we change the final gear ratio to G/2. Wheeltorque_low_rev: G*T_0*f(λ) Wheeltorque_high_rev: 2*G/2*T_0*f(λ)=G*T_0*f(λ). The rational speed of the wheel is then given by λ*G for the low reving car and λ*G/2 for the high reving car. But λ can also get twice as high for the high reving car exactly compensating the smaller final gear.
Our conclusion is that acceleration is given by the power and mass (and some annoying friction stuff) or the wheel torque. Wheel torque depends on max RPM, torque and final gear ratio canceling for engines that have the same torque characteristic except one engine revs C times as high but has 1/C times less torque when the final gear of the higher reving car is 1/C. Basically the higher torque cancels with the different gear ratio and the higher RPM also cancels with the gear ratio. Both cars will have the same acceleration and topspeed. What changes is the torque. But what's invariant? The power.
@@RealLeskot In Thailand they make some insane Diesel Drag cars. You should check them out it might amuse you.
Horsepower is the actual amount of work being done, and you need more of it to go faster. Torque is only part of the formula for horsepower
Here's what I learned while playing Automation.
Torque itself isn't relevant for sporty performance. But where that Torque is on the RPM range surely is. An engine that has peak 400nm of Torque at 2000 rpm will have about 200-300 HP, meanwhile an engine that has the same 400nm peak at 8.000 RPM will have about 600 horsepower. Because horsepower is a measurement of how many times torque was applied over time.
Automation guys even have a long video on their chanel explaining the topic
it's always about power, since torque is converted in the gearbox and drivetrain.
engine torque itself means nearly nothing. wheeltorque is the number that matters.
Yall take the time to understand this so i dont have to keep calling people out in the comments of these kinds of vids
How are engine torque and wheel torque related?
@@ntl9974 with the gearbox.
@@ntl9974 via gearing, and horsepower is what tells you what product of engine torque and gearing you can make use of. An engine making 300ftlb of torque at 3000rpm is providing the same output force as an engine making 300ftlb at 6000rpm, but you could use gearing thats twice as advantageous at the same wheel speed, which means twice the wheel torque, which means twice the potential acceleration
@@ntl9974 gear ratios. Say 1st gear has a ratio of 5:1, 2nd gear has a ratio of 4:1. You have a 300Nm engine. Gear ratios work as multipliers so if you're in 1st gear: 300Nm from engine on a 5:1 gearing gives you 5x torque on the wheels = 1500Nm on wheels. 2nd gear: 300Nm from engine on a 4:1 multiplier for gearbox = 1200Nm on wheels. That's why you accelerate faster on lower gears
Torque is not important, The only result that matters is power, we can get the same power with more torque or more rpm, The only utility of high rpm is to get light engine (supercar and performance) but there are more wear with high rpm, so we use torque on truck for less wear, a high rpm engine on truck can work same as a torque engine but with fast wear and more hard to use with the clutch 👍🏻👍🏻
also must included that alot people like more low rev engine thats why prefer higher crank engine torq 👌🏻
I always say this with it comes to this. A Ebike with a top speed of 30mph that you pedal makes as much or more torque than a 600cc sport bike that has a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds and a top speed of 150mph. In other words torque figuers alone tell almost nothing about what performance is like of a vehicle
Having a bike and a diesel, but not a diesel motorcycle…interesting test. Biggest thing is the “area under the curve” of the dyno graph. Plus the V8 sounded awesome. Also engines wear out. More rpms faster wear.
Area under the curve is useful only when you have a transmission with relatively few, widely spaced ratios. An ideal CVT wouldn't care about narrow power bands.
@@ferrumignis same thing with the newer 10 speed automatics.
You will find that cold starts wear an engine out more than rpms...
Rpms don’t wear out engines
@@petermartin9494 this right here. Thats why you want an oil with high zddp and moly.
It's straightforward: higher torque wins at the same RPM and final drive. Turns out that "big" engines make torque easier but can't rev as high as "smaller" revvy engines. Torquey V8s can be used in supercars as long as you adjust your gearing to match, just look at the Corvette C8, pretty low redline but the torque and proper gearing makes it a competitive supercar.
That 6.2l OHV V8 in the Stingray makes less than 100hp/L so it's hardly what you would call a good engine, look at the difference between the Stingray and the ZO6, engineering an engine correctly matters, and having a revvy V8 with DOHC will always beat out it's bumbling OHV counterparts.
@@bzilla1090 can you explain throughly why hp/liter matters? Cause as far as I know it’s the most pointless stat ever. Weight per power what matters. And in that regard you cannot beat an “old” ohv design. Just compare an s85 with an ls3. Both were introduced around the same time, the ls has more power, more compact, lighter, cheaper to make, and to mod, and way more durable. Downsides? Well I guess if big revs defines sports cars for you, ls engines are not what you should look after. But other than that it’s perfect.
@@horvathr95 it's not what defines hp/l matters when you are building race cars, high revving engines are staple of motor racing so if you don't understand homologation and rules set in place for certain disciplines then what I have to say is completely lost to you, so I'll dump it down, where I'm from we have touring car races, in the past the engine capacity cap was set at 2.0l naturally aspirated power, in order to make power from an engine you need to increase combustion, which means more air and fuel. Let's use the GM C20XE which for a very long time had the world record for Torque/L, it was used in the Opel Kadett/Vauxhall Astra, for homologation purposes a Cosworth head was added and cam profiles were tweaked, the result, an engine that held the record for the most torque per litre of 114nm for naturally aspirated cars, a record that was only recently broke by the Ferrari 458, higher revs = more power, OHV engines have a heavier valve train, and only 2 valves, which makes it harder to effectively use them in racing conditions when you are always driving at the peak of the vehicles ability, and this is where OHC engines require less maintenance, no valve adjustments for mechanical roller lifters, so when it's endurance racing or proper track racing, an OHV engine just isn't viable. Which is why GM switched from OHV to OHC engines for the Corvette C8R.
Until the revvier car downshifts and suddenly has more torque at the wheels. Theres a reason the z06 uses a smaller, higher revving engine than the stingray. Also more rpm, with todays engines easily capable a breaking traction in lower gears means less shifting, and therefore more time accelerating. Theres a reason motorsport vehicles near universally have high redlines.
However Torque and RPM gives you the HP. But if the other engine can find a better gear ratio and make more hp. It's HP that matters.
“Torque is instant measurement of force, it has no time component. Power is derived by adding time component to the torque.”
Horsepower always wins, it's literally the measurement of amount of work done. You can use gearing to get wheel torque. (Way more important than flywheel torque)
Yes for long range race but torque always win in short range race as simple as that
@@rajeshbedi No it doesn't. Study the mathematical formula for how horsepower is calculated. It's literally the rating of how much an engine is able to do something. 1 horsepower and 1,000 ft lbs of torque isn't winning a short race unless it's racing a turtle.
@@WyFoster egzacly 😎👊🏻
The torque can be seen as a force while power is force multiplied by speed. So if the torque can be maintained at a high level all the way up, that's what you call power.😉
Assuming everything else equal horsepower will always win a race. Torque at high rpm is what allows you to take advantage of gearing and keep torque at the wheel as high as possible. Horsepower IS torque at rpm.
Very cool comparison! It´s amazing what interesting comparisons Beam makes possible!
In my experience torquey engines are more fun on the street because they’re much more usable and easier to have fun with
I think it depends on the gearing. Small high revving engines can also be fun on the street like miata or any honda
I find torquey engines are easier to catch a slide because it doesn't instantly make the wheels spin up to 150mph. They kind of just rotate at a manageable and correctable speed.
I couldn’t help but notice the “Torque” car was hamstrung by almost exactly 10% in regards to gearing and RPM. At least for what I would consider an apples to apples comparison.
I still think the “Hp” car would have edged out, but not so dramatically.
There seem to be more variables at play when it comes to this topic. The simulator uses other specs(variables) to achieve each result. I love you video! Thank you!
Torque is best usually in a lot of scenarios if tuned/built right. However top end and traction(with enough torque for the tire) are it’s only downsides. The V8 was slower 0-60 because you can see the TC kick in, if the car had more traction it would’ve been much closer if not faster.
A real life example I tried was racing a naturally aspirated 98 Nissan 300Z with a 5 speed manual against my 98 Nissan Maxima with the 4speed auto.
If you don’t know the 2 cars have the exact same engine just tuned different basically, the 300Z made about 15-20 more hp(going off of memory from 10 years ago almost lol) but made like 10 ft lb less torque but my car was also maybe 200lbs lighter, but his manual puts more power to the ground so pretty even race.
From a roll(we didn’t do a dig) it was pretty close but I beat him by about a car or 2. Had we been doing top speed run I’m sure he would’ve eventually caught up.
This same reason is why 5 speed chargers and challengers are almost as fast in the low end as the 8 speed, same power but longer gears, but the 8 speed is faster at speed. 5 speed has better traction to help and long gears to stay in torque band and 8 speed is a lot easier to spin the tires resulting in more difficult launch but the gearing really helps it keep pulling hard in the top end.
Also torque is more fun 😜
Bruh what a perfect comment and examples! Amazing
i like that you tried to hide the fact that you are a amerifat with your v8 motor by making an example of 2 nissans 🤣 i would have believed you if you didnt start talking about muh charger and muh challenger farther down
@@insector2093 😂 it’s ok, I like how you are so insecure about your incompetence in the ability to understand what I was saying.
Long and wrong, whatever speed you're at, more horsepower means more power at the wheels.
@@SlyNine not necessarily it all depends on the drive train losses if you have 2 cars with the exact engine tuned the same the one with a longer drivetrain would lose more power because of the friction losses in said drivetrain for example the old nissan gx coupe and the 1400 sedan had the exact same engine but the gx was a tad shorter wheelbase wise and had about a .5% of the power more than the 1400
Its like, "Scoring goals vs Winning the game, wich is better?" You have to score goals faster than your opponent, thats how you win the game.
Enzo Ferrari once said torque wins the race, horsepower sells the car.
Clearly he was an idiot because he ignored Ferruccio Lamborghini’s advice on how to make his clutches better, which prompted Ferruccio to create a car brand so beloved that it’s a household name across the globe.
I think its supposed to mean torque vs rpm since hp is the result of both multiplied
Yeah, thats it. People don't understand this fucking simple formula, and trying to giving examples like "Oh, my uncle has a diesel, it smokes Ferraris".
u can’t have hp without torque and if u make torque you gonna produce hp. Just like multiplication is the results of multiple additions.
This is why everyone needs to study basic math, it’s the basic of logic.
unless you make torque without rotation, the you can have torque with zero power output
@@fifossucrilhos like torsion bar suspension, just gravity. Time is always a thing. No time, no speed, no work done, no power, yet we can’t even understand time.
@@fifossucrilhos You can't make torque without rotation.... Torque is the analog for twisting force. But good try :D
Edit: Shit, I stand corrected, You can make torque without rotation, for example... a blocked electric motor that is powered produces torque, while not moving. :)
@@tomshepard9050 I’m just saying that in a static system where all forces are in equilibrium, you can have torque without rotation. For example if you try to pedal your bicycle while locking the rear wheel with the brake you have torque but zero power.
Torque is just a force but in angular terms. Power = Force x Velocity in linear terms and Power = Torque x Revs in angular terms.
You can have tons of torque and low rpm or almost no torque and high rpm producing the same power when you go from 0% rpm to 100% rpm.
Horsepower, weight, and traction tell you what you want to know. The key is the entire power band not just the peak. Torque is irrelevant. More HP more faster, more acceleration, more pulling power. If you think otherwise you don't understand what a gear box does.
Without torque it's useless
For example Porsche 992 Turbo has 650 HP and 850 Nm of torque
And Porsche GT2RS has 690 HP and 750 Nm of torque
So yes on Similar surface with 100% traction
The 992 Turbo S is gonna beat GT2RS at 1/4 mile
But on top end yeah the top end GT2RS wins
But 992 turbo S is heavier than GT2RS that's making the difference
If you take Mercedes AMG GTR black Series it has 730 HP and 800 Nm of torque
But 992 Turbo S will beat That Mercedes AMG GTR black Series
In drag race rolling race turbo S will win
I don't know why is that
Also Porsche Porsche Taycan Turbo S has Less HP And Torque than Tesla Model S cheetah stance
And Taycan is heavier too but Taycan turbo S smokes Tesla Model S cheetah stance
Not only torque and Horsepower matters
Gearing matters as well
Like McLaren 720s beats Ferrari 488 Pista
Pista has same HP and it's lighter
But 720s beats 488 pista the reason is the gearing
In Rolling race McLaren 720s beats Porsche 918 Spyder and a Ferrari LaFerrari 😂
Just imagine LaFerrari makes 963 HP and Weights 1400 KG wet
McLaren 720s makes 710 HP and Weights 1450 Kg
But still 720s beats LaFerrari in terms of acceleration
Dobre cars raced Ferrari LaFerrari and Porsche 918 Spyder
918 Spyder beat LaFerrari in every rolling race
And when someone raced Porsche 918 Spyder Vs The McLaren 720s
The 720s was pulling away
I don't know why
But 720s is a fast car
Definitely faster than a LaFerrari
@@Smzxe let's say at 100rpm the engine produces 100 lbf-ft and at 200rpm the engine produces 75 lbf-ft. It'll always be better to be at 200rpm, 100 vs 150lbf-ft. Because the gear ratio will double the torque. The gear box is a torque multiplier, and it's torque at the wheels that matter.
HP tells you where you're going to get the most torque at the wheels.
@@SlyNine why the 992 turbo S has more torque than HP
This is why turbo accelerates so quick
Torque will help in acceleration
HP maybe on top end I don't knoe
@@Smzxe with respect, it's as if you think there are two different forces acting on the car. There is just one force, that's torque at the wheels. Engine torque won't tell you whats happening at the wheels. Unless you have only one gear.
But in any given instance, if you can shift down and get more HP, the car will go faster. It will have more torque at the wheels.
@@SlyNine ehm physics is wrong here
Porsche Taycan turbo S has less HP less torque and more weight than Tesla Model S cheetah stance
But Taycan turbo S beats Tesla Model S cheetah stance in drag race or rolling race
Why is that? 😂
HP is literally just how fast an engine can spin with a certain amount of torque. This comparison is kinda useless.
Horsepower = Torque x Speed.
Hp and Torque are not one or the other, they always work together
or even easier, HP = torque x rpm!
@@wololo10 but how much hp does a siege ram have after its converted to Mongols?
@@SlyNine considering it has double the speed, and the power to overcome air drag raises to the speed cubed, it's 8 times the power.
I think the only case where you need a lot of both are specialty cases like firetrucks (high torque to get the thing moving and high power to run the hydraulic boom, water pumps, and the mechanical siren on the front) and farm tractors (high torque to haul trailers and pull equipment, high power to run any PTO-dependant equipment and hydraulics)
Power is what matters.
Absolutely irrelevant comparison. HP is a function of torque and torque itself only matters what RPM range its operating in. 600 torque at 8k rpm is million times better than 1000 torque at 2000k rpm
Also HP and Torque are always related as HP is calculated from torque and RPMs, so the question "what is better?" is absolutely stupid. Most people forget that 600hp is just a peak number at specific rpm. The Imagine a stuck wheel nut, you try to loosen it with a 1 feet bar and step on the end, but it wont budge. Here is an example where we have 200lbft torque and you are going nowhere as there is no RPM.
the torque motor is running at a loss, fighting itself at that speed where power is dropping off. Where as the rev motor can keep up it’s max tq at the limit.
They should add crossplane engines because a lot of them are flat plane engines. Would nice for more variety in engines
i remember a comment i saw a while ago and this is how they explained it
Torque is what gets you off the line, Horsepower is what keeps you going.
Easiest Explanation: Torque is the twisting force, Horsepower is how fast a machine can do the work.
In gaming terms, Horsepower is like speed and Torque is like Strength. 😌👍
I think it’s horsepower is top speed, torque is acceleration
Torque is the only measurable force.
Hp is just torque x rpm divided by 5252
Therefore we can call hp the ability to make torque at higher rpm
Why is that good you might ask?
When you can spin the engine faster and still make torque you can keep turning a lower gear ratio instead of having to shift up and put less torque to the ground.
HP is both. Engine torque is meaningless by itself.
@@SlyNine not really. Hp is a dependent variable. Hp is wholly dependent on torque and rpm as the equation for hp is torqueXrpm/5252
@@SlyNine also some cars are heavier and make less hp while still being faster than a lighter more powerful car because the heavier makes more torque on average through the rpm range or has gobs of torque off idle and can hold onto it up to 6k rpm. Every hp or tq number you see on a cars stats is only peak. Not average
I think the torque top speed run could've been faster if the gearing was set so that it reaches max torque at top speed.
Not sure though and i'd have to try it myself.
Itll put the most force to the wheels at peak horsepower. Horsepower can literally be read as torque the the ground, as the same engine torque but at a higher rpm, and therefore more hp, can use a lower gear ratio at the same speed, the mechanical advantage of which means more applied torque at the whesls.
The area under the power curve is important.
To see the benefits of torque you should have done 0-60 uphill
wiht some load
Jesus does no one understand torque 🤦♂️ Power to the ground is how fast you're gonna go. Simple physics. Torque really affects the horsepower curve. But ultimately it's the horsepower under the curve (rpm range that it's geared for) that wins races. Doesn't matter what it's peak torque is
Power is what matters
This is a pretty bad comparison since they have far different rpm ranges. If you really wanted a fair comparison then you could use the files to modify a single engine for both torque and power.
More power=more rpm
Gearing was adjusted to get the best from each engine. You can't have the short gearing from the v10 on the low revving v8.
@@patryks6451 no
@@jedsiecz why no?
@@patryks6451 Thats not how it works
Rpm can only increase if you want to change the engine or something im not a engineer i just know some things about cars also
Horse power=top speed
Torque=how fast you Accelerate uphill and on flat ground (That's how it works in real life not in games)
Nothing about these change Rpm
proof is this video ua-cam.com/video/NkIO08dlg_s/v-deo.html
To be a fair comparison you have to compare the same engine witch develop same HP (for example 5.0 liter, v8 or V10) but one might be NA (so you'll need to reach higher rpm) vs the other one with a turbocharger/supercharger. This one will rev lower but will have way more torque.
Still will make a lot more hp though so the test wouldn't be fair
@@santiagogiuntoli6726 A fair comparison in Real life could be:
2004 Golf GTI (2.0l turbo 4cyl 200cv at 5100rpm) vs 2004 Honda Civic Type R (2.0l NA 4cyl 200cv at 7400rpm).
@@dioborghezio or 98 300Z NA vs 98 Maxima lol. Same engine but 300Z has about 20 more hp but 10 less torque roughly. The Maxima is faster
Engine torque doesn't matter but wheel torque and power(-curve) does.
Do a 5 liter 5000 psi engine in the Gavril D Series!
Exactly! Thanks
Peak horsepower and torque numbers are meaningless. It's more important on what rpm and for how long the torque is available, until peak horsepower takes effect. An engine that makes peak torque early on will feel nice and powerful, but if peak horsepower comes in too soon and then falls on its face, it will feel quite under powered if revved out. It's like a lot of these eco 4 cyl 2.0 turbo engines that basically every car manufacturer is using. They give you all the power early, but they don't like to be revved out and feel slow if you do rev it out.
Yep. But it's all still about power. But it's the power band that matters. Engine torque numbers are meaningless and peak hp is meaningless. The power curve tells you a lot more. But even that isn't enough.
@@SlyNine I agree with you on this after 5252rpm its basically pointless (5252 is where the hp and torque are the same)
Power is what matters.
Not quite... the torque is about how fast the accerleration is done. The hp is the power required to reach any speed.
I had a test run with an Audi A5 2.0 tfsi (211hp quattro) and bmw 325i (218 hp): both cars at same speed in 2nd gear about 30 mph then accelerate to 62 mph-> Audi was the first reaching 62mph while the bmw needed longer.
I choose torque over hp which made me win.
@@channasnakehead4051
"hp is the power required..."
Wat?
Speaking about what is required to reach any speed is acceleration.
Welldone
i knew it before but this good for who dont know about.
“how much hp your car have”
“5”
“wtf”
“but it has 5,000 torque”
“OH SH*T”
Lmaoo
That's the equivalent of asking which is faster, a torque wrench or a speed handle
A summary table at the end would have been helpful..
HP is the product of TQ and RPM. The more TQ you make at a given RPM the more HP you will make. This is why cars with less TQ that rev higher make HP at high RPM as RPM has a multiplier effect on the TQ. The best of both worlds is a high TQ high RPM engine which is complicated because TQ is generally limited to bore/stroke/specific cam profile which all work against building a high RPM engine. The faster the piston speed per crank revolution and the heavier the components in motion the more likely the engines going to fall apart. The bottom line when building an engine is there is more than one way to eat a reese's, what matters most to you?
Torque feels fast but horsepower wins races
would variable length intake runners make any difference from long to short lengths
You should do tow of war between those 2 and see witch one drags around the other
Torque Pulls, Horsepower Delivers
simple
HP = Torque * RPM
simple formula and clear if you understand a relationship between both things
Torque is only one of the two factors that determine horsepower. If the engine that can produce 600 Ft-Lb of torque turns at exactly 5,252.1131 RPM, it produces exactly 600 HP.. If you look at ANY dyno sheet, you will ALWAYS see the cross-over point at ~5,252 RPM. That's because 33,000 divided by 2X Pi (6.2831853)=5,252.1131. To determine the horsepower of any engine or motor, you must multiply the two factors, torque X RPM, then, divide by the constant 5,252.1131, and that's your horsepower. comparing torque to horsepower is no different than comparing RPM to horsepower. You need BOTH factors, to determine horsepower.
True, though technically not _any_ dyno sheet, only ones showing power in hp and torque in lbft.
@@ferrumignis You make a very good point. Also, beware, all the numbers I used are based on SAE horsepower, which is ~745.69987 watts of power. Beware of Metric Horsepower, which is ~735.499 watts. A metric horsepower is less than a SAE horsepower. Many foreign cars are rated in metric horsepower, but they are slightly less powerful than cars rated in SAE horsepower, though not by much. (~1.4% difference)
Why 33,000? Just arbitrary?
@@SlyNine Not arbitrary. When James Watt defined 1 Horsepower, he assumed that a big farm horse could average 550 foot-pounds of work per second, or, multiply that by 60 to equal 33,000 foot pounds of work per minute. Since an engine or a motor uses a rotary motion, the torque of the engine assumes a 1 foot radius from the center of the crankshaft. That means, a 2 foot in diameter wheel. To get to the constant, you divide the 33,000 foot pounds by 2Pi, to get the constant. Each full rotation of the wheel pulls the rope 6.2831853 feet. you need the same unit of time. Since engine speed is rated in revolutions per minute, I'm using the foot pounds per minute to get to the constant,5252.1131.
Whenever you need to use 2Pi in a formula, add 3.1415926(truncated) to 201415927, (rounded up) to equal 2Pi. That allows you to get 9-digit resolution out of your 8-digit calculator.
What kind of game are you using to do this please help it looks really intreasting and thanks for the great content
Everyone always likes [INCORRECTLY] using the example of 180-220hp Hondas for why High HP cars are wimpy down low, when in reality those cars are slow at low revs because they're only making 10-20hp down low, it's not about torque which is a static measurement of simply weight (that ignores a lot of relevant things), if it ment more than that than 10,000 foot pound stream engine tractors would have insane acceleration, but they don't, not even for a second, because they only do like ten revs a minute, meaning that 10,000foot pounds needs to be divided by literally 800 if you geared it like an 8000rpm car (12.5ft-lbs) this mandatory gearing to get the same speed is whole reason why HP numbers mean so much more than torque because focusing on torque will mislead you, whereas HP is tied to RPM so you can look at the HP curve & have a number relative to possible amount of work
TLDR; Torque doesn't show that you can have 222ft-lbs and that could be high performance because it revs to 9,200 or that same 222ft-lbs could be low performance because it revs to only 3,800, whereas HP would be proportionally higher with revs even if the torque was exactly the same throughout. Focus on HP per given RPM or the lump location of the power curve (not peak numbers), if it has high HP down low(for that RPM), it'll pull hard down low. If you're making 200hp @ 5000rpms, then at half the RPMs 2500rpms it would be healthy if you made half the power at 100hp, that's how you tell if you have linier acceleration or if it favours top end or bottom end
The issue is folks don't understand how to read graphs and focus on one or two separate points, which you shouldn't do with torque because of how little it means without relation to RPM, hence the whole reason we use HP because you overlay HP curves and always know which is faster, you can't with torque because it's much more relative to gearing, whereas 200hp @ 8,000rpm using 5.0 Ratio Final Drive will pull exactly the same as 200hp @ 4,000rpm using a 2.5 Ratio Final Drive if they have the same HP curve overlay, but in this example if you judged them by their torque you'd have tricked yourself into thinking the 4000rpm engine was better because it would have twice the torque, so you see because everything in the end needs to be geared to spin at the same speed HP curve tells you everything regarding performance, whereas torque is essentially reading the displacement of the engine, AKA hardly insightful because if an engine is too big in the wrong ways it can literally be slower in every way even with a higher peak torque number (steam engine is a classic example, because pickup trucks can outperform them)
Most of what you said is good except the car making 200 hp at 8000 rpm with double the gearing will not pull the same as the 200 hp 4000 rpm car. It will be substantially faster.
@@mikeianno wait, he is right. Same power at the same speed of a car, same performance.
@@berdmonte5370 no he is wrong in that example, if you think otherwise that's fine though.
@@mikeianno not the same power at the same speed of a car, not the same performance? Specify.
@@berdmonte5370 the gearing makes the difference, if you gear both engines to be at the same vehicle speed but one engine is at 4000 rpm and the other is at 8000 rpm while both producing the same power than the one at 8000 rpm with be faster because it's has double the multiplication of power going to the wheels.
The most important test of all that were conducted... was the burnout test. I gathered much data from this.
Horses are a function of twist and the speed of that twist. Torque is how hard you punch, RPM is how fast your fist flies, and HP is how hard you hit the wall.
whats difffrenc beetween hard punch and hard hit wall 🤔🤷🏻♂️
@@mociczyczki Effort versus impact
@@AlastorTheNPDemon 🤔yea from specified point of view we can say that probably 👍🏻
Torque gets you off the line horsepower gets you across the line. The fun is finding the sweet spot in tuning.
No, seriously. Traction and Wheel Force (Horsepower & Gearing) gives the best launch.
It took me an embarrassingly long time to realize these are the same chassis... Damn you, color!
People who still see torque and power as two separate identities...
Hp is how the engine uses torque at rpms.
Torque is the force generated by engine combustion.
Revvy engines multiply their torque for the number of engine cycles to go fast, resulting in a low power at low rmps and high power at higher rpms.
Torquey engine have low rpm redline and use all the power al low rpm and speed.
Revvy car results in a faster vehicle and torquey car results in a high traction vehicle .
Correct Andrea chan. Though torquey cars will typically have less traction not more when trying to put the peddle to the floor. You get a A- 🧐
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall. Torque is how far you take the wall with you.
worst analogy ever
@@motominded5275 e qual é o problema???
Não gosta passa a frente. 😂😂😂
Do a 10000 psi turbo engine for a t series plz
What would you pick.A sbc 327 making 400hp or A 400 sbc making 400hp?
The torque car has 600 torque at 3000rpm, then drops to 300 by redline. So the car is mostly doing 400-500 torque during the tests, not 600. The HP car's torque stays near 400 the whole time. So this was more of a test of similar torques and higher HP
ok so use peak torque rpm in car with mpre torque and less hp and it be slower and lose with biger diffrences than it lost in this simulation 😎🤭 1000 nm at 100 hp accelerate from 0 to 200 km/h in 1 ton car with cda 0,60 with perfect gearing in 40-50 sec the same car with 100 nm only at crsnk but with 1000 hp also with perfect gearing clock 0-200 km/h in 🌪️5 -6 sec 😂👌🏻☕️ any question ? 😎
Low Torque and Low Horsepower means it takes a while to get to 30 mph.
High Torque and Low Horsepower means it takes very little time to get to 30 mph.
Low Torque and High Horsepower means it takes a while to get to 150 mph.
High Torque and High Horsepower means it takes very little time to get to 150 mph.
Torque determines how fast a car accelerates.
Horsepower determines the speed it will accelerate to.
low torque low hp yep , high torque and low hp nope , low torque high hp nope ,high torque high hp yep assuming we always deal with perfect gearing and huge traction which alllow vehicle to transfer huge force to the ground 😎👌🏻 now correct subcribes this theme 👉🏻 peak torque at engine crank determines peak acceleration AT SET GEAR in most egzample 👌🏻vs peak hp at engine crank determines peak acceleration AT SET SPEED in this case always cos in torque case come into play diffrent resist at diffrnt measured speed vs for hp resist is always the same cos speed stay the same 😎👌🏻 the same vehicle with less max engine crank torque and more max engine crank hp at perfect gearing always smoked version woth more crank engine max torque and less crank engine max hp also at perfect gearing both on acceleration in drag race take offcorner whatever what and on topspeed attempt 👌🏻 cos of this what im write earlier 😉👌🏻 couple formula subscribe this stuff why this happen 👉🏻 acceleration = force be all resist ,power:speed = force ,torque be leverage= force and power = work :time 😉👌🏻☕️
How can I get the speed timer for beam at 1:22 what’s it called? Thanks !!
Hoesepower matters, but the lower rpm you can make the same horsepower the more efficent and the flatter(wider) the powerband is. The v8 only had 410 hp, while the v10 had nearly 600 hp. Unless you had a 600 hp map for the v8, it's not a fair comparision. If it was the same, what you'd see is the huge powerband of the torque that the v8 has, and despite having the same peak output, the v8 would pull ahead immediately and keep it's lead.
ua-cam.com/video/eio0wxtuHHs/v-deo.html
Horsepower:how fast you ram into the wall
Torque:how fast you drag the wall with you
You even can't copy-paste that lie correctly
@@berdmonte5370 i didn't copy paste anything dumbass
Tesla Roadster: ok
Hp: how fat yu hit the wall
Torque: how far yu take the wall with yu
My dad always told me “Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, horsepower is how Hard you hit the wall”
That camera man is fast
Next up.. Torque vs rpm.. same amount of hp for both
What's up with the angles of the car and ground during the top speed runs?
how do you get that hp/torque graph?
Reading through these comments is peak entertainment
Where do you download these mods?
Tell that to my high torque viper that smashes almost anything on the road lol.
Your Viper smashes, because it has more Horsepower. If you have Torque @ any RPM, that means you have more Horsepower at that RPM. You can't see 1.000 ft.lb @ 4.000 RPM but 25 Horsepower, thats stupid and impossible. Your car creates more torque even at lowest RPM, that gives you more Horsepower than your opponent.
your viper be beat almost be each sports car with lesss torq and more power so whats the point 🤷🏻♂️ your viper smashes other vehicle cos have more power not torq 👌🏻hers egzample honda cb 350 rs 30 nm at 3000 rpm 21 hp at 5500 rpm 0-100 km/h 15 sec os 👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/hekURimQl10/v-deo.html vs kawasaki ninja 250 21 nm 8000 rpm 30 hp 11000 rpm 0-100 km/h 8 sec os 👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/Mwqs4rPnmg4/v-deo.html so vehicle with 30% less torque 👉🏻 ninja 250 have better acceleration than vehicle woth 30% less power 👉🏻cb 350 rs and its cos power :velocity = NEWTONS FORCE or thrust 🌪 whatever . + here is your viper 450 hp 650nm 1600 kg against ferrari 620 hp 600 nm 1750 kg dragrace start at 2:23 👌🏻 🤭👉🏻 m.ua-cam.com/video/pbIx1SCA_nI/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdZmVycmFyaSBndGIgZmlvcmFubyBkcmFnIHJhY2U%3D like you see ferrari smoked viper with easy 👍🏻 ferrari is heavier have lesss torque but more power allow it to accelerate faster push driver stronger into seat 😧 thats how work formula watt:m/s = NEWTONS force 👌🏻 more torque mean only you need less revs to achive specifed power level lesss tprque mean you need more revv for achieve the same power levele it dosent matter which way you achive more power this which have more power dosent matter how from what type of engine setup higher or lower rpm higher or lower torque it dosent matter 🤭more power dosent matter how achieve beat this with less power assuming perfect gearing for each simialr weight all outside resist gearbox shifting time + enough grip asf you cant beat physique 😎 100 hp at lower torq beat 50 hp at 10 times biger torq but get smoked be 150 hp freeelllllly at lower ot higher torq dosent matter 🤷🏻♂️ civic type r 200 hp 200 nm beat 206 1,6 hdi 110 hp 260 nm but be smoked be civit type r turbo 320 hp 400 nm not because civic turbo have more torq what is irrelevsnt but because it have more POWER the same civic type r turbonversion 320 hp 400 nm be beat be civic type r n/a version tuning for let say 450 hp 350 nm with perfect gearing setup 🤷🏻♂️period
can you do tall gears high torque vs short gears and high hp?
Both HP and torque are a result of a function of RPM, meaning both are capable of producing the same end result, but through different mechanical forces. You can go 200mph with high torque and low rpm and gearing, but you have to have internals that can withstand the rotating forces without failing, or you can go 200mph with low torque and higher gearing by utilizing higher rpm. Your internals don't have to be stronger per say, but they have to be lighter to resist self destruction at higher rpm. It's a balance game for either, but it's hard to test this in a game where you can't design each engine specifically for the task. Automation would be a much better game to test this. Create a car with two different drivetrain strengths, all other aspects equal, and import it into beamng.
Finally someone in this comment section that understands what this is.
Horsepower = [ (Torque * RPM)/ 5252]
Both can achieve exactly the same results assuming the transmission can compensate for the force you are not focusing.
@@michaelgimenez4032 they just vary over the band right
@@ntl9974 Not sure if this was a question but if it was, yes.
When at 5252 RPM both Torque and HP are equal, before that point torque is higher while past that point the faster rpm coupled with torque will result is greater Horsepower.
Almost but not quite. For a specific car to do a specific speed it will need a specific amount of horsepower. Same with acceleration. To accelerate a car at a specific rate requires a specific amount of power. We can calculate that figure. You can't do the same for torque, because torque alone is fairly meaningless. For it to have any context you have to know at what rpm the torque is achieved, at which point you are essentially talking about power... (Power=torque*rpm)
The only reason we compare torque output for cars is because combustion engines tend to operate within a familiar rpm range. So the torque figure becomes shorthand for how much low end *power* an engine makes.
1:38 it looks as if the car is sliding sideways in a very extreme speed. Nice illusion.
Engine torque only matters for the launch, as soon as the higher horsepower engine is in its power band in first gear it will be faster the rest of the time. Power is what matters not torque because the lack of engine torque is compensated for with gearing. With even a rudimentary idea of what power ‘is’ you would realize that this test is useless.
still. if you aint gonna get a good launch, it wont matter if your car has top end. you need to get out of the hole fast. why else would AWD diesel truck smoke supercars for lunch anyways?
And that still gives you a horse power number as soon as the wheels turn. In any scenario more horse power is better. Because, like you said, the gear box is what creates torque at the wheels. HP tells you what's happening at the wheels.
Power is used to move anything. That's not the point.
Torque is a very useful metric and more torque can win a race over just more horsepower
@@ntl9974 no, more engine torque does nothing. The power curve is all that matters.
@@ntl9974
Acceleration*Speed*Mass=Power
Torque cannot be used to define anything performance related.
Check how the launch is performed. To get the best acceleration of course.
ua-cam.com/video/AoDDODh5Ras/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/-RqMbaohYeY/v-deo.html
Torque is like muscle and force. Its the instant kick. HP is like stamina and power. It keeps u moving and with more hp, u go faster and faster until u reach ur top speed
It is not a good test. The trasmission in V10 was in D while the in V8 was in S. There is difference in shifting time.
Another iteration of Torque Vs Hp:
Torque: The acceleration, what puts you back in the seat
HP: Achievable speed (based on the HP) at the end of acceleration
Absolutely wrong.
Power=acceleration*speed*mass
Torque is never vs hp
@@berdmonte5370 lmfao what I said is not wrong at all. Torque is how effective the power is put out. HP is the amount of power.
@@berdmonte5370 "is never vs Hp" clearly you can't ready. Torque is not a direct comparison of horsepower. It's a completely different thing. Get a fucking brain
@@0yCrazyb "torque is how effective the power is put out". What is it? Check the basics.
@@berdmonte5370 You don't even know the basics. It's a seriously simple idea of how it works in relation.
This isn't a fucking math lesson. Nobody here gives a shit about that. If you think torque ISN'T how effective the power gets put out, then you're a dull cunt and I'm done wasting my time with you
Basically in other words
Horse power is how fast you hit an wall and torque is how much you push the wall with you
I will invent a 250+ Mph Diesel supercar that does 0-60 in 2.5 seconds.
I’ve seen a f350 (440 at crank 1000lb torque) STOMP a stang on nos (450-500 ish hp and tq). I was in the dusky. I imagine it was also more fun than the guy in the stang
So basically what your telling us is having a lot of both is better.
According to me torque is the pulling power that's why heavy transport vehicles has high torque and often uses diesel engines
Power is pulling power. High tourqe diesel engines make high power at low rpm and are reliable and fuel efficient so thats why they are generally used for heavy transport vehicles.
If you’re worried about torque, get a Calvo twin turbo viper 😉
some engines have both. irl the weight of either drivetrain and gearing would decide the outcome. but in some cases just having high hp wouldn't work without a properly geared gearbox. for example . you would need something like a 60 gear gearbox for a 50 ton truck combination with a 2 liter diesel engine stage 6+ . if changing a gear takes 2s (relax driving) it would take 120s in gearchanges alone to reach 90km/h . a truck has 12 to 16 gears on average . because it has the torque to push through the load at low rpm. making it possible to skip gears . and be much faster with high torque . but you would never be able to start driving uphill . or have to stay in 1st gear . because 1st gear will be 0,x km/h and after 2s for the gearchange you would already be rolling backwards .
audi car engines (some) have an extremely wide flat high torque powerband. that results in high HP at high rpm.
Torque is what is what is need to overcome the effort required in order to get something to move, keep moving or accelerate.
Think of effort (work) as POWER (KW) and Torque (Leverage) as the Ease with which this power can get something to change it's current state.
Basically. If you have lot's of torque but no power to apply to the torque, nothing get's moving!
Likewise, If you have lot's of power but no torque (leverage) that this power can push against, nothing will be moving either!!!
Power is literally the amount of work that is done in the engine's combustion chambers! That power pushes into the pistons and needs to be transferred through the con-rods, into the crankshaft, through the gears and into the wheels, This is torque! To make more torque in the engine, you can make your con-rod's longer (increase the piston stroke) which will give the engine an easier time to turn the crankshaft (which is useful for being more economical (up to a point)). But increased stroke also means that the crank rotation will tend to lower the RPM potential, which in turn results in decreased "rate of work" (KW) that can be generated in the cylinder. Typically more torque usually equates to less RPM which means a reduced rate of work that can be achieved, which means less KW. Modern engines can reclaim most of the lost work through forced induction, compression ratios, timing changes, injection techniques, etc! But they can do little against the "unwillingness" of longer stroke engines to rev as high as their shorter stroke brethren, without risking some reliability issues!
Having said that, increased Torque greatly increases the ease in which the engine can turn the crankshaft!!! Depending on the application and the workload that needs to be lugged around, this will dictate which of these: Power or Torque, is more useful. There is often a fine balance between power and torque that needs to be considered to get the most out of a given situation!
General Rule of thumb: the lighter the load that needs to be moved, the less Torque is required to make it move. Which is pretty obvious right? And hence, if less Torque is required, the engine components can be made smaller (shorter strokes), which results in the engine being able to run at higher RPM resulting in more work that the engine can do in the same time = more KW (Power)!
Hence why Motorcycles have abysmal Torque figures compared to Cars, yet are extremely fast under acceleration! That's because they are so light: they don't require a lot of Torque (leverage) to get them moving and hence they have extremely short engine strokes which maximizes the rate of work (KW) generated in the engine's combustion chambers and thus can usually achieve much higher RPM (and KW) than car engines of similar displacement!
Put that same motor cycle engine in a heavy SUV and the engine would easily stall. If you finally get it moving, it would strain and struggle, as the engine lacks the torque required to lug the mass of the SUV around town with any form of ease!!! Doing so would be extremely hard work for the engine, resulting in an excessively high fuel bill, engine wear and likely a premature engine failure!!!
To say that Torque is better than Power is to say that water is more important for us than oxygen!!! Both are vital to get anything moving! The question is: what do you want to move and what are the performance vs economic equations to consider?
A little messy here.
Engine is a machine that turns one type of energy into mechanical energy. In classical mechanics energy equals work. Work is force times displacement.
And energy is basically what we think about it: fuel and battery charge.
So in order to move a heavier object or to move it at a greater distance you simply need more fuel, and nothing more. Amount of work just shows you the amount of fuel needed to perform it. If work of pulling a feather full turn around the earth equals to pulling a house for a couple of blocks then it will require the same amount of fuel. And you don't need any specific engine to do both actions. Even a hamster in its wheel will do that, if you feed him with energy long enough. This is why force, torque and work are not needed from the engine's end. Power is the only characteristic that can describe engine properties. This is why people use engines : to make work FASTER, not just to make a work. To make a work, a simple machine is used.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine
For example, using an inclined plane, people have built Giza Pyramids. It took 27 years estimated.
Horsepower is how fast you're going when you hit the wall, torque is how far you push the wall
Speed is how fast
Amount of fuel is how far
Torque wins you the short track, HP wins you the big end.
No, you gave an example of gearing. Horsepower is Acceleration and Top speed at the same time. Torque is just a force to create horsepower.
correct me if im wrong but isnt the only reason that torque isn't better in literally every scenario in real life because of the fact that you can only build engines and transmissions to handle so much torque before they break or you just have to build them much bigger and the added weight outweighs the performance gains? in other words, if we lived in a perfect world where rotating components of the engine and transmission were indestructible so you could build them all the same size and weight then wouldn't more torque always be better because you can just gear it differently to make it accelerate faster?
You failed with the basics. It is power that cannot be substituted with gearing, not torque. Torque output (a specific amount of it) of the engine is not required at all, by definition of the engine and why people use it.