Do BBE Sonic Maximizers Deserve the Hate? - Down the Rabbit Hole
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- Today in Plague Scythe Studios, I search for the truth behind everyone's favorite 1U punching bag. the BBE Sonic Maximizer!
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Listen to Siderum: siderum.bandcamp.com/releases
Reaper Forum Sonic Maximizer Discussion: forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...
00:00 - Introduction
02:15 - The BBE Process: "What It Is"
06:32 - Replicating the Sonic Maximizer Effect
08:47 - Plugin Audio Demo
09:32 - The Sonic Maximizer "Trick"
11:56 - Phase & Frequency Response are Close Bedfellows
15:50 - The Net Result: Less than Brilliant
17:13 - The Insensetive Nature of Phase Shift
20:20 - Phase Shift Audio Demo
21:23 - Marketing: The Sonic Maximizer's Real Failure
24:00 - The Sonic Maximizer's Flawed Premise
27:17 - Conclusion
I have used various models of BBE Sonic Maximizers and Aphex Aureal Exciters for decades. I have been doing front of house sound since 1981. These types of tools get bad reputations from people who don't know how to use them properly. I don't detest Autotune, Melodyne and other pitch correction software and will use them in my home studio. I do however detest the overuse of these products to "fix" bad performances. As you stated the BBE is a tool. If someone doesn't know how to use it or someone overuses it, it's not the fault of the tool, it's the fault of the "tool" using it improperly. Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
Well put! (and funny)
I use one in front of house. But not past half way on either knob. If you hear it working, it's probably not working,, if that makes sense.
The beauty of this tool is it is super simple to get quick highs or lows . Ya some sound people still use their ears ... imagine that . No screens , no graphs , just flashing lights and your ears .
@@johnwalton7428 If you can notice the effect of the BBE then it's being over used. Like in all things, it's best used judiciously and in moderation. A little less is much better than a little more.
You are correct! These BBE's are INCREDIBLE!!! I use them on everything! see my fourthlayer post
I use BBE in my studio and it is amazing. everybody is blown away how it works. Secret is to use id delicately. I never go over 50% ever. 20-30% is my usual.
may i ask how you use yours
I got an old rough looking 822A, and that paired with a set of cheap speakers, actually does a pretty good job. I could almost get the same result with an equalizer, but still not get the same kick out of the cheap speakers. For some reason UA-cam has suddenly started recommending videos for this, and people telling how bad it is and why to not use it, and I am not sure why it should be avoided, when it is getting the job done.
Only for sure things in life:
Death
Taxes
EQ
EQ comes before the other two ..... i've been trying to EQ my way out of taxes for 40 years ...... must be another Sonic Maximizer anomaly, 'cuz IT DON'T WORK :-)
It a solid state passive EQ which uses passive reduction to achieve frequency boosts, which in turn is more linear than an active eq which uses phase delay to achieve tone shaping. It's a lot of marketing speak just to say, it's a solid state, smiley curve, two band, passive eq. Guitarists will be in 2 camps some will push the mids up to achieve a more natural sound and those who cut the mids for a scooped sound. Scoop'ers will probably like the BBE. I find it is useful in one scenario. When a floor tom is tuned so loose that a microphone can't reproduce the sound you hear in the room a BBE Sonic Maximizer or an Aphex aural exciter & big bottom can help during tracking to capture the floor tom the way it sounds in the room. Also in the live world darker dynamic mics are used far more often than condenser mics so having a passive EQ on the master bus might help to clear up the entire PA in some circumstances. I do think there are better options out there but like any tool if it works it works and like all tools hammers are useless when you need to retract a screw. But I think the BBE gained popularity during the 1980s when PA systems for regular local bands was terrible compared to today, and demo recordings meant a cassette multitrack or a 1/4 reel to reel like an Otari or Tascam couple those with noise reduction system which were garbage on lower end reel to reels and the BBE might have helped to push back up the highs and lows compared to a static active EQ. But ANY Passive EQ would have given you the same result this is why the Pultec and it's clones were so popular in the 1970 to the 1980s. If you look at the history of Exciters you will see there was audio VOODOO in the marketing that is why Aphex was able to charge artists by the MINUTE to use the original Aphex unit and force artists to print mastered with APHEX on the record and BBE found a cheap and easy way to get their slice of the exciter market craze of that era.
Great video, insightful analysis. However, I have to respectfully disagree with your ultimate conclusions regarding the Sonic Maximizer’s utility for specific instruments, for example, a bass guitar. I’ve played bass for classic rock type concert bands for decades, i.e., very loud bands. NOTHING has helped me cut through the mix, and distinguish my bass guitar from the rest of the band, as well as the Sonic Maximizer. I’ve tried every type EQ, and a zillion types of stomp boxes. None compare in achieving this specific task.
I've been using a mono older model sonic maximizer in the effects loop of my live rack for over 20 years. I run through the effects loop of my Marshall jcm 2000 along with a noise suppressor. Let me tell you, I know these units catch alot of flack, but people always tell me.. Ohh my God.. Your guitar sounds amazing live. I swear by these. I don't car what anyone says. However, I do not use it in thr studio. The effect is has live is it give the guitar a tighter perceived sound.
Yeah live these rip heads clean off. Studio is a NO. Live is a wow.
Exactly you got it men that's what it's made for.
It's a no nonsense plug it and bang piece of gear ment for live or rehersall when you only need to sound ok and don't have time to waist tweeking 100 knobs (we's got pedals for that). All it is is a preset bus compressor. In studio use a real bus compressor and real eq unit and spend the time it takes to tweak a perfect tailored setting for each song. But on stage, just plug one of those and it's just good enough for rock n roll.
@@MichaelBruceTaos For direct recording, I totally agree. But for miking up an amp for tracking, a BBE can be absolutely fantastic. That's how many legendary guitar tones were recorded! And there are other great studio uses too. A BBE can greatly enhance drums, particularly the kick and snare drums. But like most FX use in the studio, you'd only want to apply it to the mix, not when tracking.
@@bassman5123 Gotcha! Excellent infos. I stand corrected. These are awesome all the time :D
I had a cool DI box with the Maximizer built in that was great for acoustic. The added low end clarity and top end presence worked well. The guitar pedal and rack version weren’t ideal in a guitar rig, but in a bass amp or PA setup I felt like it enhanced the tone. One of my friends used the newer rack version for his subs in a live setting and I felt like it did fix some phase issues
Very good and informative video. You made some very valid points.
In order to fully understand the BBE process you must listen on speakers and not headphones. The phase delay is caused by the different drivers and crossovers in the loudspeakers and this is what is being corrected for.
If you listen on single driver devices like headphones or one-way loudspeakers you will not detect the process correctly.
I love this video so much. So many engineers go CRAZY over tiny little phase issues when it really doesn't matter as much as the numbers make it seem.
I love my Sonic Stomp. I think part of the problem with the hate is how people use it. It's really a less is more pedal in my opinion. I set mine so all that it does is sort of fills in the distortion tones... When I'm playing through it clean, it's hard to tell that it's even on compared to bypass, but it just adds so much more clarity to my tone that I can't get by way of more gain or eq tweaks. Because my settings are so subtle, I don't lose any mids, and it pretty much stays on all the time. In fact, the only time I really have it off is when I am tracking guitars. It doesn't lend itself well to that task for some reason. Just wanted to add my two cents. Appreciate the video, keep it up man!
You just spoted what the beast really is : a compressor !!!
If you play below the threshold nothing happens. Get louder thru it and it compress.
@@lolaa2200not exactly. Its like a multiband compressor. Its doing different things to lows mids and highs
Thanks for the in depth explanation, especially the response frequency graphic. I am always curious to see the respond frequency if we run pink noise trough BBE and capture it with some measurement app such as Smaart Live.
I run one of the old rack units in my effects loop alongside a graphic eq, compressor, and a noise gate. I couldn't tell you what it's actually doing, but I know it makes it easier to dial in how i want my tone to sound. Different strokes.
Can we all just take a moment to appreciate your wealth of knowledge and how well you speak and present. Thanks 😊
I also heard they were doveloped for correcting the heavily compressed radio signals.
I used to have a stomp box version for my acoustic shows, placed after my main mix to the speaker (point source box) and made everything so high fedelity and clear. After i bought my EV Evolve 50 (column speaker) it didnt enhance the sound for some reason so sold it. Just bought another to try again. But i intend to use it on my direct electric guitar pedalboard using a Vox Mystic Edge as a pedal platform. The EQ it imparts seem the same as the ones id correct the internal cabsim on those pedals so see how it goes.
If you still have the Cutting Edge pedal Ryan, might be worth a look :)
Great video man as always!!
I’ve used a sonic stomp in my fx loop for years to sweeten up the sound of a cheaper amp, and I consider it indispensable, but I can absolutely see why some wouldn’t like the effect or see it as unnecessary.
Keep up the great work!!
This is a beautiful, well-thought-out video. Got yourself a subscriber by being explanatory, analytical and exploratory.
Thanks a lot Ryan, that was cool. I need to dig out my old unit from way back in the late 90's and try it out again. I only used it for guitar and I recall it as really opening the sound when used modestly. I'd say similar to finding the right IR in today's world so maybe I could have achieved the same effect by getting better cabinets but hey, if it could make poor cabs sound better then maybe it wasn't so bad after all.
Perhaps reviewing a piece of gear's claims might require...actually having the hardware in hand.
I've used a variety of BBE gear for decades, from cleaning up old cassettes when digitizing, to making home karaoke sound more "pro", to making my band's sound deeper lows and brighter highs...you can get close to this effect with a good 31 band stereo EQ, but you'd have to constantly adjust it. This thing is like a smart EQ.
Other artists/bands that have played thru my setup always say "wow, your system sounds incredible"...knowing how to use it helps. ;)
What's a good tip for using it? I've been wanting one but I am not sure about settings
@@LiamDarden 1/ don't over drive it. Don't push the levels too hot because it needs headroom and if you push too hot a signal in you rob it of necessary headroom.
2/ Don't use it as EQ because it is not EQ. Figure out the one setting that makes your listening/PA gear sound best across a range of of different recordings and music genres - classical, jazz, pop, grunge, a broad range - and then either run it with process in or process out. You'll quick enough identify those recordings that have already had the BBE process applied in the mastering - and sometimes the mastering engineer totally butchers it. Unfortunately it's difficult to fix it after it's been butchered by over cranking the BBE. Perhaps they're trying to hide something that is wrong in the recording.
3/ Don't use it as a component in an FX chain. It is best used between the console and the power amp.
That's how I see it. That's how I've been using it.
13:30 A yes, the Fourier transform, my old friend. I actually learned how to do that by hand at University and since that day, I am grateful for spectrum analyzers and how easy they make things.
Great analysis and assessment. I can see it used in mastering if you were layering the track in an effect rack and using to affect a certain frequency range.
Appropriate shirt! That thing was a staple in Friedman/Mustaines rig back in the early 90's. Crispy tones lol. The BBE process was also included on some car stereos back in the mid-late 90's.
This needs to be pinned! Lol
I have two of the pedal versions. Now I wouldn't be without one on my board. It's like a presence control for my entire signal.
I use an old 462 between my POD XT Live and power amp (just upgraded to a Marshall 9000 series from a Valvestate 8004 power amp), and I freaking love it! I boost the mids, but it tightens up my lower frequencies and really brings a presence and clarity to my tone that actually has me hearing myself better...
As a tool for a specific purpose these may be useful. I am trying to prevent comb filtering in my line array, so I treat each channel to prevent tone matching.
I can't say if it works, but if you asked down the highway the first thing that would be mentioned is that I should learn another riff.
I’ve got one in my 21space rackmount and I’m planning to get another so I don’t have to keep unplugging it.
Huh interesting, during the Sonarworks back to back comparison I could only notice the bass frequencies getting less "boomy" when it was turned on, other than that I could barely notice any difference and I'm listening on studio monitors.
Oh, I also dug out the box and manual, and they actually suggest using it at the end of your signal chain, or in the app's effects loop. Found that interesting, I never placed mine in the loop. Might have to see what difference that makes!
I have uses it at the end of the chain, both live and studio. The difference to me was the "timing" and increase of range on the final track. I hope you try it and let the audience judge. Enjoy!
I still use a bbe 362sw .It delays lows 2.5 ms mids .5ms and the highs is used as a point of reference to make dynamic amplitude corrections. The sub woofer filter is a bonus.
Great content here. I agree that there is no "Band Aid" fix for all audio systems. With regard to home audio, my friends used to argue (back in the day) about how to set their graphic eq as if there was some magic setting that would work for every system and my argument was: if there was such a magic setting, why wouldn't someone manufacture a processor that was pre-set to these specs? That is what BBE seems to be saying they have done here and I disagree with them. I do however use one at home in my rec-room when I listen to classical music. I could probably do as well with a good eq.
Great work, very objective viewpoint, keep it up.
I wonder if you might have a different opinion about the sonic maximizer if your room had some treatment? Ryan, you’re a smart dude, treat your room!
So I downloaded the Reaper JS for this thing and am tinkering with it, my first impression is that you really need to mix into it (as made evident by the video here) because of the dirty big mid scoop and the high end "boost" that happens when you throw it on, it can really make your cymbals sound like white noise and glass shattering.
Once I got past that "qwerk" however it ended up sounding pretty cool with the track I was mixing (it's a mix of Funk and Soundgarden esque Rock with big, roomy drums and a phat bass line), really made the drums and bass gel together and kick hard. This is a great tool if you're mixing more vibey, groove oriented music IMO, however I can really see how this thing can get you into trouble, especially with the high end and getting things to translate to smaller listening devices because of how hyped the high end gets. The extra low end can also really mess with more technical parts as you can imagine so again this might not be the best thing in the world for anyone mixing Tech Death or anything where you want to hear every last detail, but who knows, this might be exactly what you're looking for.
I totally agree ! Sounds like you exactly used it. However, I like the Mids it produces. Gives them presence without harshness or changing the definition of the sound when used properly. I all referring to the mix, not the instrument usage.
Yes... there are many ways today to do what the BBE do (multiband compression, parametric eqing, enhancer, exciters, etc.) and yes - at the end - it does something like a "smile-eq".
BUT it do those things in a "dirty and fast and brutal" way just like pushing the loudness button on an old hi-fi. And just turning a pair of knobs... and who play a guitar likes knobs.
The BBE SM was the spice of the Nuno's Pornograffiti tone (starting from the ADA MP-1) to get that "clear tumping" percussive sound in those hammer-on/pull-off palm-muted licks... (but yeah... not the only strange thing in his rig: the power amp was an "old" hi-fi McIntosh 2100 amp).
But yes... nowdays, sitting in front a pc monitor with tons of plugins running in a daw, or in front a software editor of an amp modeler... one can do the same things the BBE do turning just two knobs.
I picked up a sonic maximizer pedal awhile back. I liked what it did for the sound having it in my signal chain. I asked a prominent youtube home recording/digital studio person what they thought of the bbe sm. He said he had absolutely no use for it because it caused all kinds of issues with phasing and such. Rendering it not worth the hassle. Do you thi k the frequency delay that it employees it what he meant my it causing phase issue ?
The audible result that the Sonic Maximizer produces can be replicated via EQ matching, and the resulting curve can easily be reproduced using a parametric EQ. Anyone can easily validate that claim for themselves.
Thank You! So I just need a parametric EQ and not both?
@@adamstein9333 Yes, although you have to take differences in Q ratios (as they can differ significantly between parametric EQ's) into account.
BBE maximizes is one of the the best processors out there , quick eq cut Bass or high vs. Ever sound system should have 1 .
MY BODY IS READY
Great post. One of the most intelligent, articulate presenters on UA-cam.
(and, yes, i use the Sonic Maximizer .... two in fact, the sonic stomp variant.)
Please keep the videos coming dude, I have gained so much overall guitar knowledge at this channel. Though It might bite me in the ass I am going to say it anyway
I have one in my bassrig (send/return after the FX's) and it works great. As any FX, it take time to adjust it correctly.
I've always looked at the BBE units as a sort of 'loud button' like you might see on a hi-fi.
Maybe a bit of snake oil...maybe not.
But if you're seriously looking at one of these units, might I suggest the DBX Drive Rack a possible alternative. It does some neat tricks with phase, delay, and EQ to tune your PA to the room and even uses a mic and RTA to create a custom algorithm in a snap. It has a database full of gear onboard to get started and make the most out of your killer PA system, and it absolutely works great. IMAX uses similar gear to dial in their incredible sound systems to match the venue.
No hocus pocus, just solid science and good DSP.
So glad someone finally tackled this piece of gear. I always say the BBE is like a right of passage for guitarists. I bought into it once and it wasn't until I turned it off that I realized I was better without.
I question the need of this for guitarists mainly because speaker and cabinet engineers design their products knowing that there is some information lost in the conversion from electrical to mechanical. They design their products to counter this already.
haaa marketing ... they make the lie so great even people who bitch the product reuse the lie. It's almost funny
OMG Dude! You're like the Cody's Lab of guitars... you could be brothers from another mother. Thanks for the info. I'm looking for a 2-way stereo crossover, and saw the discontinued BBE Max models. I was intrigued because they have the maximizer effect onboard, so just doing some research to see if it's worth trying to find one, or just get a Behringer or some other active crossover.
Thank you for such an intelligent comprehensive look at the BBE. And I agree that the market info p.r. Component is about the worst of it. And furthermore, you know the deal. When some people spend a goodly sum of cash on a product, they will often trick themselves into hearing what the literature told them they should hear, just to avoid thinking they wasted a few hundred bucks. Looking forward to your future analyses of other products, esp. the ones that promise to “save the world” and solve some problems that are so inclusive, they shouldn’t even be called problems. Thanks.
I was at Blackbird recording studio A room with a Neve console, EMI equipment, Telefunken, Fairchild, AMS, etc, low and behold a BBE 882i one had kick on it and the other one snare. And one with bass on it.
I'm a little late on this one but thanks - after listening to your description I think I will experiment some with my FRFR cab. Who knows what I might find?
I used a sonic stomp in the effects loop of my valve king100 head and honestly it brought a whole new life of heaviness that otherwise that amp didn't really have. I'll always have a soft spot for bbe
I did the same thing and it was awesome! When I sold the app I included the Sonic stomp and that guy is still using it. It made a huge difference!
I actually heard of this because Chuck Schuldiner had it always on
You can google for the schematic. And it shows a fancy Multiband-EQ-Design. So, the "delay times" given by BBE reflect only the obligatory phase shift at those EQ-Bands. Nice marketing trick. :-)
But, if you look at the price and the time it was introduced, I think it was developed for producers who owned just a standard mixing desk without parametrical EQs. And they were glad that they had two exra Bands of Bass and Treble EQ!
Phase shifted sounded thinner in low end and sounds bit brighter, its kind a quite noticeable here in treated room via Adam A7X speakers. But its not deal breaker, its just different.
my old bbe 362 is used for vocals through my mixing board it cleans up the highs just enough to be noticeable it is in operation each day for me it is not meant to be cranked up to max.. I always get compliments on my audio for my ham radios and cb radios using this device ..
the phase thing is useful in mixing for getting fast attack compressors to react more aggressively on the sharp transients of synthesized drums. other than that, it's just a decent sounding high shelf plus low shelf EQ with fixed frequencies, nothin' wrong with that. good to have different flavours of EQ available.
also, live sound guys, from what i understand, already have much more complicated tools that use an impulse and a set of expensive reference mics to fix the phase and frequency response of the systems automatically, using a LOT more than just three bands.
I actually quite like it on kick drums and bass, although more rarely, since it basically does a massive mid cut I'd do anyway. I agree that the way it's advertised is flawed though. I basically treat it as a thing that doesn't work 99% of the time, but when it does, it's really useful.
I always liked the low conture to help shape my guitar sound thru the effects loop,worked great.i did use the older 482 model but it cleaned it up a little via the process,but I used very little of it,now the low conture made the low end tight and big at the same time,so I did like that feature.
This is a very interesting video. There is some good information in it. One suggestion that I would have is to turn off the distortion on the guitar. Heavy distortion just adds, basically, noise, to something and obscures audio charateristics. Using a clean Fender sound, would be much better for hearing the examples, for the concepts that you're presenting. About the BBE, the end result of using one, basically, so mirrors an EQ, that it appears to be kind of redundant.
This is great unit when used after all the effects before the sound hits the power amp.
Used one on a PA System for years, they are amazing and subtle
I'm all about those 2nd order harmonics, with a little 3rd order to add grit and crunch to the distortion.
Of course, I manipulate the frequencies that bring out those harmonics with a graphic or parametric eq.
I can cop a tone ranging from Accept to Stryper to modern progressive or power metal.
Regards 🎸
Place it before or after delay/reverb? I get it that it goes after drive pedals .... a little curious if it ought to affect reverb/delay too.
End of the signal chain in the loop.
I use the BBE plugins and they are very useful; you just have to compensate for the volume boost as you turn up the processing.
I really enjoy the pedal for playing on a Low watt amp at bedroom volumes. Once the tubes are being pushed I am not a fan of it. It does have a place in my heart for that quiet playing.
You have a good channel dude always learn something cheers,,,,,,,
Yeah he does...he is a gear monster and is very well spoken. Thats a win. 😎
Have you thought about taking a stab at understanding why in 2019 a chorus would ever be over 100 bucks? I rarely see any of them sounding any different than any other option.
WOW. I so much agree with you. Most chorus sounds the same. I got a Indyguitarist modded CH-1 yrs ago used for $80. Indyguitarist is B Wampler before his own brand. That's all the chorus I'll ever need plus it's like homage to 1 of the better builders of pedals IMHO. And it's a Boss pedal, 1 of 2 that stayed on my board from the original build of 8 Boss pedals and 5 other brands. Many changes but I'm happy enough with this 1 chorus that don't even look at others. The other Boss is a Alchemy modded BD-2 that I got used for $80. A Keeley Waza crap or stock BD-2 couldn't replace this 1 either. Just a good sound, plays with other pedals good and of course Boss looks good. Interesting enough the Keeley only costs me $124, the Waza $93 and the stock $49. My plan is if I ever get a good enough camera to make a comparison video.
I have it on my pedalboard....as an EQ to boost highs, not to correct the audio. I never ever use it to mix/master. I like it, and I yet think it’s just a fancy EQ. 😆
I bought a sonic maximizer for very cheap many years ago for my guitar rig 5150/Laney 4x12. Useless for this application cutting out all the vital midrange via front or FX return.
After that I only use it for listening to vinyls and cassette with studio monitor. It draws a big smiley face in the signal, highs and lows sound louder. Set it lower if you need more mids. I don't mind listening to a coloured sound from these formats from a final produced album/ep.
I have used it after a triggered kick after the drum module and into Di box to PA. It's good for that too. Never I would record a signal thru the sonic maximizer.
I read about how Michael Wegner used BBE on the classic hair Guitar tracks, I have an ADA, I run it in the loop of a Boss LS-2 I run it wet dry. I can keep the original signal and put just a bit of the BBE in so I still have mids.
Ryan...if I understood what you were saying about how a graphic Eq works, the signal enters the circuit and the circuit creates a copy of a frequency specific portion of the signal for each of the frequencies that the Eq device is engineered to treat. The respective copies are then introduced back into the original signal, but with a specific amount of phase separation that’s dependent on the amount of boost or cut that is selected. If cut, the phase alignment tends to cause frequency cancellation and a for a boost, it tends to create frequency reinforcement. Is that more or less a high level summary of what you expressed?
He said something like that, but I don't think he meant to. Because it doesn't really work that way at all. He was trying to describe complex phenomena. Graphic eq is just a series of filters, filters introduce phase shift, more or less, depending on the the design and order of the filter, but that is not their function, it's a side effect. When combining complex signals, phase cancelation can create some peaks and valleys in frequency response, which may or may not be of concern depending on the situation, so there's a relationship there, but that's not done intentionally, especially in a GE7. Everything else he said in the rest of the video seems to make pretty good sense to the best of my knowledge.
I never thought of using this in the effects loop. I've always encountered these things in the main mix bus of systems. This seems like one more thing that would have to get adjusted or could get bump;and nobody would realize it. And all those systems that I've used with them the newer ones the red ones it always seemed like I was fighting the entire system to get it to sound good well also not feeling like I dare touch the knobs on it.
I like what mine does for my pa, and used it cost less than the boss eq on my board. I like tickling a 32 band? Eq with just 2 knobs
For live electronic it really reinforces the bottom end and crisps up the highs, and in a guitar rig as a resonance/presence master.
I found the Two Notes thing in the shootout sounded okay compared to the raw track. The BBE stuff sounded kinda wrong, like too aggressively EQ'd or something. Two Notes sounded more reasonable
I beg to differ. Human ears are VERY sensitive to difference in phase. The difference in phase between the arrival of a sound at left and right hears is how we can detect the direction of a sound. This is also the reason why as the frequency falls our ability to determine the direction of the sound also diminishes. Phase differences are more obvious at higher frequencies because the differences are a greater percentage of the wavelength.
That's really time of arrival at ears not phase. They're related but not really identical. Human ears don't really detect phase at all, they detect it's artifacts.
@@xenod1066 Yes we detect difference in arrival time if the source is a single point. The complex wave form may have been reflected, and is interpreted by the brain. Difference in perceived arrival time is difference in phase.
@@socialite1283 Phase and time are related, and seem to be almost the same thing, but aren't really exactly. I mean we're kind of splitting hairs maybe, and it has to do with language, but I'd still say that, technically, we hear artifacts of phase, not phase itself.
If we reverse the polarity of a single source, and thus the phase, absent extraneous factors, we can't detect the difference.
Adding complexity doesn't really change that.
We detect cancelation at various frequencies, and that's an artifact of out of phase signals, but it's actually amplitude at those frequencies that we're detecting. Likewise with arrival time. It's the difference in time that we detect. All kinds of convoluted things may have happened to the signal or sound to cause those changes in arrival times, but it's not just perceived, different parts of the the signal actually arrive at different times.
There's no phase detector in the brain. We notice differences, but it's second hand, via the artifacts.
We detect phase by it's footprint.
See what I mean?
Um... I have a BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer. I've had it since the '90s. Those plugins don't seem to be doing what my 362 does. It's not an EQ and it is not a compressor. It deals with phase issues, and it deals with the change in the response curve as the low frequencies below the resonant point of the woofer loudspeaker. It's not a digital problem, and it's not an EQ problem.
The 362 deals with an inherently analog problem to do with the mass of the loudspeaker cone.
I have a rack mount and a stompbox Sonic Maximizer. It's the only pedal I run through my Boogie MK IIB effects loop. It's set at 10 and 2. It just bring out the flavor.
I patch it into various points of the efx chain just to see how it changes the signal downstream.
It does something, especially with lots of reverb and noise going through it. Then off it goes, into more stuff.
I never considered it this final step for perfect sound. Just another gadget to color noise.
I actually saw one at the pawn shop yesterday. I was wondering if it was worth buying or not. I’m a mixer, but I literally have no outboard gear. So even if it were worth it, I wouldn’t know how to hook it up. Lol
I would use this in studio situations even to emphasise or bring out a certain vibe in a mix down...Bear in mind that everyone has differences in sound perception anyway - but we're talking about a machine that isn't trying to 'solve a problem' but to some peoples taste, enhances the perfection of sound in the way reverb is a matter of taste Also, u need to account for sound reflection on surfaces in your studio.
as a guitarist and a DJ, I never even knew people were using the BBE in their rig. It literally never crossed my mind. However, I really enjoy using it as a PA tool.
I had one of these in my fx loop for awhile, and thought it sounded great. Then one day I turned it off, and I was amazed at how much better it sounded. I took it out and never looked back.
One day you will try it again and think it sounds great LOL..
@@realtruenorth you never know. Sometimes we mistake change for improvement. Our tastes also change over time, so it's hard to say exactly what happened
2 notes with your fave settings was my fave.
I was going to try the stomp box ! but a 10 band Eq pedal and distortion don't need too .
BBE made some great pedals outside of the Sonic Stomp, it's a real shame they aren't more popular.
No it doesn’t deserve hate. If you can get it to work for you then who cares. I think it gets hate because there was a time when almost every single metalcore, hardcore, and post hardcore guitarists were using them. But they sounded cool. This video actually kind of made me want to get one again. Lol. I had a ton of fun playing with one.
I thought the sonic max was designed to be placed between an amp and speaker? According to what you read about delay and phase issues with a speaker....wouldn't that be more likely? To test this you would then have to set it up that way, and actually have the rack unit not a plug-in that isn't actually a sonic max, then place a mic a good distance away from the speaker...then you will be able to measure the frequency differences?
I personally have to disagree and do prefer it for instrument amplification. I've been using one for years and it's honestly been the only constant in my many rack configurations.
I use it on my guitar rig and I only use the 462 stereo model, the one with the white borders around the contour knobs. I swear that's the best model to use. Using this unit on my rig allows me to hear everything I play live including the raking of the strings clearly. Something I cant get without it. I can't speak for EQ's because I never used one.
Do you use high gain when using it? If so did it help to clean up a muddy/ flubby ness....?
@@kingpants8764 Oh yeah, but what are you planning in running it with?
@@souleternal7
I'll be running A Mesa boogie v-twin preamp (pedal version) into a mesa boogie power amp. Or the v-twin (used as just a pedal not as the pre) into a mooer mini preamp (on a clean setting) then into the mesa power amp.
There is soo much stuff on the market these days. A lot of stuff does sound good. I mean shit, if you wanted to, you could literally play at an arena with jamup pro out of an iPad. Soo many VST related software out there. For me I like the mercuriall, stl tonality, neural dsp, and ignite stuff.
Hi there, I’m a bassist, I’ve been playing for a while now ( 38 years ).
I use a BBE 882 and have used the previous versions of the S Max, in line with a dbx Comp and use a class D amp ( 800 w ) .
I understand what you’re saying about people not understanding the the principle of the device, it’s not an EQ by any measure, I use an EQ for that .. trying to play an example over you tube is not really going to cut the mustard unless the speakers the audience are listening though are Maximised .
When tuned to my Cabs, and tweaked for the stage I’m performing on , the clarity and balance of MY sound from my cabs is like lifting a bed quilt off the cab as far as my sound is concerned.
In my opinion it must be tuned to the speaker and the location.
Something else to consider at a musician use , is the size of the band... ( bass gets smeared out unless the sound is transparent and focused ).
A big band like soul or jazz with its balanced frequency range will benefit with the bass being tight and focused.
A punk or thrash band will struggle with a focused sound as generally the type of music is not supposed to be tight in frequency.
As an instrument sound enhancement I think it works great, but for a band ( multiple instruments going through at the same setting ) the sound as a whole becomes over processed and saturated because the S Max is covering too much bandwidth.
Just my opinion,
Thanks for the great tube.
Just this week I replied to a comment on another video about the great bass tone of a cover band on UA-cam (check out Foxes and Fossils) and wondered what, if any, effects he used. Scott King, the bassist, responded and said that he only used a Sonic Stomp, always on.
The real problem is how it eats the midrange. If they could fix the phase relationship without sucking the mids out, or indeed without altering the perceived frequency relationship, that would probably be ideal.
Funny enough the Two Notes version seems to do exactly that
Just eq the mids back in
It's not being used properly.
Short delays and phase differences do actually EQ your signal. That's just the way it is.
@@johanneschristopherstahle3395 well, not necessarily. You can apply an allpass filter that changes phase drastically, and no frequency shift occurs. So phase can change without also changing EQ. But it's only really possible in the digital realm.
I get why people like it, I used to set my eq to boost lows and highs in my stereo system
I've heard they can make Solid State amplifiers sound glorious.
I fell into the trap years ago. The main thing I realized is that gear like this won’t make you write better songs or have a more engaging stage presence. If you write good songs and are an engaging personality on stage, people will come and enjoy the show. They won’t even notice subtle sound changes like this
I mean, doesn't that apply to any gear you buy? By that logic, everyone should be using beginner guitars and plugging direct in to the PA because the audience won't care.
I have used sonic maximizers in my guitar amps effects loop for years as a glorified EQ. It works for me.
People won't but the guy in the studio will.
People have no idea how great record is done, which equipment is used and, frankly, they don't care. They care about liking or disliking the song.
The better the song is produced, the better chance it has to succeed with it's listener.
Otherwise, we wouldn't have companies making expensive, proven products that can create magic in the studio with the simplest musical ideas.
It's all about the sound, and if you can use the tools you have to improve it, I don't know anyone who wouldn't.
I do have this product, I use it, and I know it does work the way it was meant to work.
You're just making an argument for the sake of one.
I use this in my cover band. People come enjoy the show and I’m not writing a single song
After hearing that now I know why I sold unit. It makes the recording sound over processed.
i used it in my guitar rig and i loved it. it took all the muddyness away from my sound. the difference was like night and day but it was a crate gfx 120 crappy amp. the sonic maximizer made it sound badass. i would use it all over again. good amps dont need a sonic maimizer.
Yes they do.
It makes every amp sound better.
I've got an MS-92 Sonic Stomp, which is the pedal version and it sounds great and everyone who hears it completely agrees that it makes the guitar sound great.
What? You: "I can say definitively is, if you're a guitar player don't even bother." Well, BS, Zakk used an Aphex on the Ozzy albums he was involved and live shows... it was a part of his Lee Jackson rack. He is far from the only one who used one religiously back in the day.
BBE either has it wrong or is misleading competitors but it takes longer for a speaker to produce bass, and slightly longer to produce midrange than treble. There are speaker cables that try to correct time alignment and some floor speakers have the woofer and midrange moved forward, closer to the listener.
Basically it is a 3-band multiband device with very discrete settings of phase shift as I understand. A notch filter on drums, cutting the mids could leave headspace for mid heavy lead sounds for a mixing setup. It looks like spl mk2 sonic vitalizer has a very similar approach of balancing the frequency bands but I just guessing here didn't get over the mathematical formula or DSP back engineering. Only because it could be physically correct aligning low content delayed on speakers using that kind of separation technique it does not mean giving a better sound every time so getting better at mixing by knowing what mistakes could be made.
In mastering , if you have a mono recording, put bbe in one of the two channels and you will have an illusion of stereo.
this guy looks like jesus wow
I play a 7 string *guitar* through an Ampeg head, 4x10 cab and a 1x15 cab. The difference in the sound quality is incredible. I have had this for about 18 years.
I think with your application it does more work to improve the sound because of the extended range and multi cabs/amps.
I totally agree. It's truly a bad idea to scoop the mids of your guitar sound. If you do so, you'll never cut through the mix and you'll end up with a big mush. It can get even worse if your guitar is tuned rather low or if you play on seven strings.
@KC your answer is what's bullshit actually =)
personally i think if you have to work with bassists that never change their strings, either make him change them and if he do not want to use the bbe ... i saved some recordings for dull basses in my case ... i don't like it on guitar though ... for dull basses it is okay
22:23 there it is! It's not "a sonic swiss army knife"