Machining a Next-Gen Spinal Implant: My PhD in 9 minutes
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2023
- In this video, I show the machining of a prototype artificial disc replacement. This formed part of my Ph.D. research project.
For more information, please visit the website: mindisc.co.uk/
A special thanks to my Ph.D. supervisors:
Prof. Martin Browne
Dr. Alex Dickinson
Dr. Andy Taylor
#machining
#lathe
#electronmicroscope
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Hi everyone, thanks for watching! There are a few points that are coming up in the comments that I would like to clarify:
1) The spinal cord does not run through the centre of the implant.
2) Although a significant part of the video, the focus of my PhD was not on joining the pins to the endplates. In the final implant, the pins and endplates would most likely be machined from one piece, or the the pins would be diffusion bonded or welded to the endplates. This staking approach enabled low-cost prototyping.
3) There's been a few comments on 3D printing. 3D printed metal structures lack the flexibility for the device to operate but as 3D printing progresses, perhaps this will be a viable method in the future.
4) Counterintuitively, most disc replacement surgeries are performed through an incision in the front of a patient’s body. This might seem like an odd direction to approach the spine from, but it makes it easier to avoid the spinal cord. I didn't talk about this in the video but my implant is designed to be able to compress, and then expand into the disc space, allowing insertion through a much smaller lateral incision.
Thanks again for the interest!
good point about 3D printing. It has its benefits, but defintalely has its limitations as pointed out in this case.
Cut from the front, woah i didn't see that coming & i don't even want to picture it o.o
How Does a Person Apply for the Testing Phaze of this implant please..
I have ( DISH ) Diffuse Idiopathic Skeletal Hypertosis..as well as Disc Damage..
Any Treatment that can REDUCE The Pain Without Drugs is A Great Thing..
❤❤❤
Regards Vince.
Disc squeezed through a tube? Amazing! Volunteer right here my man!
Hi, and thanks for a fantastic channel :D
I wonder if EMD could be a possible manufacturing process?
As an 81 year old retired cell biologist, electron microscopist and chronic back-pain sufferer I found this fascinating. I know what field I will go into in my next lifetime. Congratulations on a very exciting and much needed research project. Good luck in further work.
For better or worse, your next lifetime won’t include any need for either research/discovery or application of solutions. The knowledge and interest will continue, but the ailments and mysteries will cease.
Hang in there old-bro. We'll soon be uploading our consciousness to the internet.
@@galewinds7696 well aren’t you just a ray of sunshine
@@galewinds7696 yup. I am. Just to spite you :)
I don't know if I will follow a path into biomedical engineering yet (studying mechanical engineering), but if I do I'll keep you in mind :)
That staking tool is exactly what I am here for: a totally new (to me) tool and technique, and insight about how it’s possible to work at such small scale.
In the gun smithing community, we would refer to the two stakes (punches) used in this video as a roll pin starter punch, or just a starter punch, and a roll pin punch, used for finishing the installation of a roll pin punch, but you could get away with just using a standard pin punch. The roll pin punch just makes it so that your punch is less likely to be knocked out of place and potentially scratch or damage something after being struck with a hammer, but I've heard that roll pin punches can result in roll pins mushrooming out after being struck.
@@maximilian200057 I think these are two different processes, specifically because staking forms the metal for a permanent attachment, whereas roll pinning doesn’t form the metal part, it just pushes it into place pending later disassembly.
To put it another way, the staking uses the divot in the pin and the hammered spike to make it so the part has permanently deformed into the hole. In contrast, a roll pin stays in place due to slight springiness that isn’t a permanent deformation of the part.
The effect is that repeatedly removing a staked pin will rapidly grind away both the stake and the hole it’s in. In contrast, a roll pin is designed for repeated disassembly with only trivial damage to the parts.
But as I said above, I’m learning about these tools so I’m open to hearing how I might be wrong.
@@twestgard2 The first instrument used, the thing a gunsmith would call a roll pin starter punch, was clearly not an instrument used to stake anything, rather to help install certain parts that act like pins, like you can see in the video. If such unusual parts exists in certain firearms, then gunsmiths would use a small roll pin starter punch to install them. The second part was an instrument used for stating, but gunsmiths often get clever with their instrument usage and could potentially use a roll pin punch for the purpose of staking something.
Correct me if I'm wrong but seems like rivets still can be quite useful, although a very different kind of them
That type of work has been used since the bronze age.
Check out the fascinating and ingenious methods they used to make jewelry back then.
Nothing new under the Sun.
As a sufferer from spinal injury (and also an engineer) this was a great video! I totally understand the purpose of your implant and how it could help me so I hope you're successful so that future patients can get the help they need and avoid suffering like I do 24/7... I'm sure there are plenty of us who would volunteer for medical tries. I would!
I am also like u had aback injury when I was 26 and have suffered ever since I have had two operations first one they removed two discs in my lower back and put inserts in and second operation a few years later they put rods and pins in two try and help things I am now 40 and have had to unfortunately give up working and now I can hardly move I do not wish this sort of back pain on my worst enemy i just wish there’s something more the nhs could do but there’s nothing else that they can do for me I hope for your sake you are not as bad as me mate
@@joestiff3689 Sorry to hear that Joe...
I was 36 when I took my tumble down the stairs and I'm about to hit 50 next year, mostly been bedridden more or less the last 10 years in order to avoid the worst pain... Sadly this has it's own drawbacks but it was the only solution I saw back then whilst trying to raise two boys on my own at the same time.
I was about to get the "final chance" surgery on my lower back this spring when they told me "You're fat! Loose some (a lot) weight before talking to us again..." Well, surprise I've put on weight when I struggle to walk between the bedroom and the kitchen, whereas I was really fit when I had my accident - and now, at almost 50, they demand that I drop 10 kilos more than I weighed at my last surgery just because I went over some magic limit?
I understand that it's hard for the surgeons when us bigger fellows (I'm 188 cm) land on your tables, but I'm not fat because I'm lazy - it's because most of my lower spine is shot... But I've just lost 14 kilos since February so I'm going to have the last laugh eventually! ;)
Good luck and I hope you'll find some sort of solution eventually!!!
I've been in pain for 32 years and worse since I feel over on the ice in December 2017, after 2 MRI's and a spect scan I was offered surgery to fuse vertebrae together but everyone apart from the surgeon recommended I don't have it. So now it's a case of living with the pain but at least I'm mobile. It's sad to hear of people in worse shape than me and I really hope something comes out to help with the crappy vertebrae issues we have. I wish everyone with a bad back the best and hope for the future!
@@danriches7328 tbh I regret my surgeries. I've had to do 4 so far due to failed fusions. The 3rd surgery actually had 3 levels of fusions collapse on itself. The initial symptom was loss of function of my right arm but no pain, after the surgeries it was pain.
@@JensAndree Not to be rude, but the last thing you need with a spine injury is to be carrying extra weight around. Some people mistakenly think that they are overweight because they can't be active anymore, but it's really just that they are eating too many calories compared with their reduced daily energy usage.
I'm disabled and thin, simply because I don't eat much.
As someone who live through torturous hell for 8 yrs with DDD from an MVA, I can't thank you enough for applying your knowledge and skill in this field. Ultimately stem cells were the only thing that worked for me but the involuntary suicidal thoughts are too much for people to live with, with no end in sight. Hang in there folks. Looking forward to seeing more work in this regard!
Sorry to hear that but I’m glad you found a solution. I will do what I can to see this work through for future people in your position. Cheers!
is there any feasibility to using stem cells to somehow grow replacement parts, that could be then put in place as new, correctly functioning part of the spine?
@@xisotopex currently no, but it should be possible
@@user-li8up7nt2o Why not put a belt around the disc wrapped to your mechanism (How a jail) to prevent the disc displacemrnt.
Can you link me to your stem cell solution? I have the same problem. I've already had 1 disc replaced and 2 more are failing. :(
As a sufferer of chronic back pain and a person with several plates down my spine, thank you. Your skills are amazing
It is so wild as a layman to both medicine and machining, coming across stuff like this on yt. Just incredible the precision and care that’s going on, to say nothing of the potential benefits of this work
Seeing people here on UA-cam making these incredible medical devices like this is so cool.
I am glad that you're studying this. I have 2 total disc replacement devices in my cervical spine: C5-C6 & C6-C7. An area of contention in the total disc replacement arena is whether or not the disc needs to be a compliant or elastomeric mechanism. I have 2 Zimmer Biomet "Mobi-C" devices in my neck and they are NON-compliant, but highly mobile, constrained devices. I have been happy with their performance, but much of the research in this field needs to be done as to improve the technique and preparation of the bone structure for accepting a diac replacement device. All spines are minutely different and have unique characteristics, so a "one size fits all" device is not acceptable for every patient. Good luck with your research, would love to see more about this.
medical implants are amazing inventions. I have an artificial knee for many years now, it really has improved the quality of my life. But there have been complications with designs, so props to the professionals that are dedicated to innovations of implants.
Bore us?! Please share the results. This is fascinating and beautiful work.
As a Watchmaker, I really like to see tools from us, being used in such medical techniques!! Big thumbs up from me! 👍
I am both a hobby/model engineer and somebody who knows first hand about degenerative disk problems. Your work is truly fascinating, I look forward to seeing more. What I enjoy is the blending of very traditional craft engineering with the very sophisticated test equipment.
As a former watchmaker with 10 years experience I was never any good at lathe work I am happily jealous of your abilities. This video, you can machine, and, you're brilliant?! Too much! I wish you all the best
How the fuck is a watchmaker not good with a lathe? That's pathetic
Really compelling interdisciplinarity. Thanks for making your research accessible.
Just a suggestion, instead of peening over your pins or machining them from a single piece of material, you might want to consider shrink fitting them into the frame. If you are unaware of the process, you make the hole smaller than the diameter of the pin at room temperature. Then you submerge the pins in liquid nitrogen and then when they shrink due to the cold, you press them into the holes. When they warm up, they expand and the fit is exceptionally tight and takes fewer steps to get a good result compared to peening.
I am a design engineer with 40+ years who has designed everything from medical devices to video game hardware.
I am also a long time sufferer of lower back pain due to a very bad car accident many years ago. So I applaud anyone who has a novel approach on helping those like me who suffer daily with this problem.
Good morning to you all. (First I have to ask you all to have mercy on me for my poor English I am an old guy who had not the opportunity to learn your language very well.) When my recovery of my second hernia operation took place I made a very nasty fall on the curve of a sidewalk. I will spare you the details but the price I had to pay for that was heavy and that my total lumbale spinal cord from L1 to L5 including the sacrum where tightened with screws, bolts and pins! (My back was already a mess) From the moment they were installed I could walk again, don’t ask me how coz it came with excruciating pain. The consequences can be guessed: Oxycodon 20 mg 3 times a day, 70+15 band aids Fentanyl (extended release) every 3 days. Please, don’t think that I’m a complaining person but after seeing this video it made me very glad for the generations that follow me because I’m to old for these kinda operations.
There’s still one question that remains, it seems to me that when your bending over or, in my place make a nasty fall, will this proteus stay in place? I mean, you are using pins instead of screws? Or will the surrounding muscles be strong enough to keep your new proteus in place?
Whatever the answer might be I’d like to thank you for sharing this beautiful video with me and thank you that you’re thinking straight fore-wards and helping other ppl that suffering with their back. ❤❤❤😊👍👍
Absolutely incredible! As a mechanical engineer in training what to do my PhD on is always in the back of my mind. I would love to know which field you are in if you don't mind but would like to thank you for this incredible insight into your work. It is truly inspiring and exciting to learn about what it takes to develop something so revolutionary and the incredible precision required.
My specific field is Bioengineering Science but with a degree in mech. Thanks for watching!
@@scoobert69 he mentioned watchmaking so likely a watchmaking lathe
Very interesting. I like the use of your watchmaking / machining skills in your PhD pursuit. Good luck with it all.
Fantastic presentation, thank you for sharing.
Great work! I worked with several osseointegration Ti projects with Prof Brånemark and co in the 1980:s. We used the double sided fiber laser CO2 welding method for dental bridges among other things, but it is not as easy as some people may think. There was a lot of talk and different surface projects, but the conclusion was that a somewhat coarse Ti surface always is OK, problem was that Per Ingvar dropped the original Ti patent that Ti osseointegrates, therefore all these different patents on surfaces from Nobel biocare and others. I worked with some of these Swedish companies like Ospol and others in later years.
Absolutely fascinating. Thank you for all you are doing. As someone who suffered a year of agonising pain due to a “slipped disc” I can attest to the need to find a long term remedy. I live in fear of a recurrence of my past trauma. Good luck with your work. 👏👏👍😀
that was one of the the most intresting things i have watched in ages. well done.
Thank you for your work! Spinal injuries and degeneration are debilitating and life changing. Your work will one day be life changing, for the good!
The world is already better with people like you and I.... thanks for sharing your video ... my older brother and I suffer from excruciating pain when nerves get pressed between vertebras ... my brother, a dentist, manages his suffering with professionals and their prescriptions ..... I made a silicone mold for me that I place in between by hard belt for lifting weights and my column lumbar area .... this silicone mold and belt prevents my verterbras to dislocate while using my muscles, and I can even lift 2 - 90 lbs cement bags, of which act I made a video for my brother (who lives in another country) to watch, to induce him into making his own mold, but he believes not his eyes or my video .... I believe that instead of making a disk replacement, an adjustable and removable spacer would secure in place adjacent vertebras for the necessary time, to allow one own body to rebuild the disk, in about 2 years I calculate, the fixation of adjacent vertebras would allow the disk to painlessly regrow itself, thence with proper nutrients, mother cells perhaps, our body rebuilds all necessary.... similar devices are used to extend bones in people that need bone extensions, like in legs when 1 leg is shorter than the other. ... butchering disk is so obsolete, I strongly believe, based on watching so many videos related with the intent of me having surgery, to what my other older brother, a surgeon reinforces saying to me "don't do it"
Mr sir,,may u b blessed continuously..I have had two neck surgeries and I doubt they did anything that matches ur skill.from my world to urs.deep respect and gratitude.thank u
Man this is epic im seeing the solutions to back problems that i might have later in life (21yo) as it runs in the family my grandpa walks at a 45 degree angle all the time being created and as a instrumentmaker in training this makes me smile
was granpappy born on the side of a hill ??
oh no. of course - dutch !! not many hills in holland !! smh
I've suffered from a spinal injury for over 20 years that left my lower 3 discs ruptured and impacting the spinal cord. Even with surgery to remove the part impacting my spinal cord I have lower back pain that results in reduced motion to avoid pain. I have seen other forms of disc replacements, including multiple replacements (on an MMA fighter if all people) that restored normal motion and no pain. The biggest issue is most ground breaking procedures like this take place in other countries such as Europe and not in the USA. The slow acceptance of new procedures by the USA means it will be years before anything is available and even longer if you expect insurance to pay for it. I see video like this and just shake my head as I will never be able to afford it in my lifetime so I must live with the pain.
It is very much appreciated that you took the risk to post something like this on the internet!!
I found this video absolutely fascinating from a variety of perspectives, least of which that I have scoliosis and I may need something like this in the future. Thank you for making content like this online. This sort of video is truly what the internet was made for.
I'm a retired machinist of much larger components than shown in this video. I don't know how this popped into my feed, but I find this subject incredibly fascinating. The world's humanity should feel blessed to have you, Sir.
Great video and close up shots were amazing. Thanks for sharing.
Lovely video! Nicely done and very interesting. Thanks for posting. Looking forward to more such as this one. Thanks again.
Great job on the filming, too! The objects were so well captured that I had to see the rice grain comparison to really appreciate the small scale.
That was incredible, thank you for that video
This is some amazing work, great job!
Fascinating. impressive machining skill and interesting design. Currently struggling with some back pain myself so couldn't help but imagine the implantation process. Best of luck to you!
What a basic level of engineering. I'm glad you were honest as much of the medical industry spends it's time bluffing the world
It's good to know that in future people won't need to suffer through the same pain millions, including myself have had to endure. I hope your work continues to make progress and that it becomes available for use in due course. Thank you.
Very very impressive! Thank you for your contribution!
I always love to see the intersection of different trades, seeing watch making experience be applied to medical prototyping is genius and I can't wait to see your work make it to industry
absolutely inspirational work.
Congratulations on your work. Very noble indeed
Having spent the last 30 years with a crushed T12 vertebra waiting for, as the surgeon put it, the inevitable, It's always nice to see any new techniques. Especially when you consider some of the existing ones sound nightmarish.
This is extremely cool. Congratulations!
Nice work, well done Sir. It must be very rewarding.
fascinating stuff and a very cool idea ,. thanksyou for sharing and best of days getting it working and through to its final usage
I had no idea you did work in the artificial disc replacement field. I just watched and commented on your video of you making the heart of a watch. Anyways, I thought I would share my experience with artificial discs. I had ruptured 2 discs at C5-C6-C7 in my cervical spine. The discs were through the protective sac around the cord, and was actually deflecting the spinal cord as I lay straight in a MRI machine. I did not want a fusion, as I was only 34 years old. I ended up getting 2 Mobi-C artificial discs installed. I loved them, and they worked great for my range of motion. I was very happy with them, however, about 3 years later, 1 of them had the top metal plate detach from the bone, and the serrated teeth carved away the bone significantly. To avoid further complications, we all decided it would be best to remove them both, and fuse them all together. I have a stiffer neck now, but I guess it's not going anywhere. I just wanted to share. Great video. Thanks.
Amazing stuff, and a nice alternate path to becoming a disc jockey ! 🙂
Ingenuity of people just never fails to amaze me. Good luck on your research, and hope it will deliver in the end.
Truly amazing video
Very interesting and professional video. What an amazing idea!
You got steady hands my friend. I have been a machines for decades and what you made is tough. Well done.
Wonderful job and a relief for a injured person a new life indeed Well done Sir from me with a butt full of back injuries as spinal stenoses and much more
This project does not have high enough stakes.
(I'll leave)
Also amazingly nice work. I love seeing people working on small and intricate parts.
kommit
What an interesting combination of two fields I know almost nothing about! Very interesting and well presented.
Important work , thank you
Utterly fascinating. Makes my dodgy back feel better even though this will be a decade or so too late for me. All success to you!
What’s crazy is you just thought of this in your head over time. And just went on to create it by hand and make it real
Inspirational work on the device and on the manual machining at this scale
Absolutely amazing. I have a friend who will be very interested in the results of your development. Spinal injuries are some of the most painful and difficult injuries that a persons can be forced to live with. I wish you the best with this endeavour
Interesting insight. Thanks for making
I’m 26, I have suffered with problems with my discs for around 7 years , I’ve had one surgery with several operations in hopes to give my nerves and spinal cord some room and it has been a few years since then and my latest mri shows that my discs have bulged and herniated again my surgeon wants to do the same surgery again and I don’t want to go through another useless surgery , I hope this technology becomes more widespread
Lovely video, good luck with your future studies.
Also nice to see skills that aren't considered academic used in the academic world to help make everyones life better
I believe you have the right combination of education and skills for a task such as this. Good luck.
Cool solution for back pain, keep us up to date on the progress of your thesis
I look forward to having at least three of those implants in due course. Fascinating stuff!
At some points in the video I looked at the process thinking it was much larger, only for you to step back and show off the actual scale of the parts.
Really some incredible engineering. Never seen this kind of stuff before at such a micro level
Ruptured l1, l2, and l3 over here. Work like this is why I refuse fusion surgery. Keep up the work, gives folks like me hope.
Fascinated by biomedical engineering, such precise workmanship. Something l’ll have to get into in the next lifetime.
Best of luck with your education/thesis and your product.
We have not had much luck in the Canadian heath care system dealing with DDD and nerve pain from spinal chord impingement and treatment with things like disc replacement or stem cell treatment - perhaps the province of the affluent. Know that your research is an important piece to greater good, even if ultimately unsuccessful.
ive got no back pain but i can see its purpose and it seems crafted with the utmost care. youve got my vote. hope you can get it where it matters.
This video had brought my image on term 'surgical grade precision' into a whole new level. I've studied a little bit on some Ti-Nb-Al based alloys, but didn't know how precise those would be processed. Just mind blown.
Photochemical etching might be a good mfg process for producing those end plates, I work with x-ray systems and this process is used to make small/precise features on the tungsten gate mesh. Definitely subscribing to see more of this project.
Such a random video - I loved it. Amazing work and dedication. Hopefully it helps folks out. Have had a few epidurals over the years myself for back pain relief. Nowadays I hang upside down to maintain. 😅
I wish you highest of success
I had an idea similar to this when my L5-SI disc was mostly destroyed during a fall at work, when the Dr. was talking about removing the disc and fusing the bones, I didn't want that type of repair, so i'm living with this condition still. but I have a great idea for it, and it can be done quite easily.
this is really interesting, Good Work!
fascinating work, man! :)
Nice work. I've worked around a lot of Brown & Sharpe scream machines throughout my life.
Lovely video. Using watchmaking techniques in medicine is brilliant!
Thanks for the video, helped a lot!
Very interesting channel, thanks so much for sharing this stuff man. =)
I've been dealing with a back injury for about 5 months now while being unable to work and only able to walk while using heavy medication, and let me tell you, I cannot stress enough how much back injuries suck due to the constant pain. Seeing this made me smile knowing that there are people out there trying to find an answer to chronic back issues. I just hope my condition isn't long term
Simply, brilliant.
This was the most exciting video I have seen in some time
man, that's an very interesting thing to do for our body, like an "upgrade" I could say, but a very necesary one for these days with a lot of home office and so much stress on the spinal cord ... I only could hope that these kind of surgeyies will com true in the near futute and I wish you all, who innovate this, to have good luck and make it possible for the rest of us
As an engineer with a bad back, this is very cool. I hope it will eventually hit the market and help many people.
This is super cool. Appreciate your hard work because I may need to get surgery on my spine due to degenerative disc disease. No fun to have. But was cool to see something I may use in the future be tested and mocked up.
So, now you just need to convince test subjects to allow you to make miniature drill holes on their spine, yank out their damaged cartilage, AND set the replacement you made in place! How’s that going?😂😂😂😂 AWESOME JOB AND GREAT VIDEO! Super interesting approach to the problem with a mix of cutting edge technology and ancient skills in machining! Wow!!! You mention your PhD, you an engineer or a medical doctor? I subscribed to your channel a while back due to the nature of your work, it is amazing!
Have you considered coating your backing plates with a thin film of gold to improve biocompatibility. I know titanium is approved for implantation but idk if you’re pins would be. The gold coating could help make sure there isn’t rejection by the body
My first job after engineering school in the 1980:s was in the Nobel Pharma company with Prof. Brånemark. Gold was frowned upon then compared to titanium with the correct surface coating. I remember that electrochemically as in bio electrodes gold is not so stable, my university did some artificial hands controlled by surface skin electrodes and green spots would eventually develop in the skin... Some gold compounds are rather toxic as as understand it.
I am currently in my first year of the biomedical engineering bachelors. This is so cool to see! and really inspires me
Completely amazing
Amazing !!
Subscribed
as an electronic engineer / hardware designer these machine works and hand crafts are just mesmerizing
Sir your dedication and ingenuity are far more inspirational than some footballer kicking a ball.
Amazing , i would love to read the research and results from your PhD
Very well done indeed.
Do you have any plans to add a surface treatment such as acid etching, media blasting, or other chemical treatment to the portion that inserts into the cortical bone? The geometry of the pins doesn't look like it would hold up over time to much tensile forces especially since they are connected to a semi rigid component that is connected to another compliant component which is subject to not only tensile and compressive forces, but lateral and rotational forces simultaneously during normal function. Adding flutes would allow for ingress of osteoclastic activity and could help stabilize those implants to resist forces other than just compressive.
The disc is always in compression, apart from during large bending deformation. I have a method of resisting tensile forces in this instance. All other forces (bending, torsion and shear) are resisted by the pins. I have considered more interesting pin geometries and coatings on the superior and inferior faces of the implant for osseointegration. The pins are really only designed for primary fixation and, as you see them in the video, in their simplest form. Thanks for your comment!
@@chronovaengineering I love your content so far this included but I believe you are going to have big problems with this design.....at least from what I have seen presented in this video. Good luck.
titanium have an interesting characteristic called osseointegration, where the bone grows on the titanium surface and lock the titanium implants. this characteristic was Discovery by Branemark in Sweden , around 1950 when he was studying micro circulation in rabbits. today with metal 3d prints, these implants can be print in a easy and cheap way in one piece.
@@chronovaengineering Have you considered traction forces as would be induced during chin up exercises (1G) or being suspended in a parachute harness (potentially several Gs on initial open) for example? I'm fascinated and extremely hopeful for better options than exist today!
@@gardnercongdon9104 well I think that if you need one of these you won't be jumping a lot from a chute. I don't think that considering extreme cases is the way to go. As a doctor I prefer a solution that is not perfect but available than a non existent one because of its difficulty. You can choose if you want it or not given it's limitations.
Outstanding.
Fantastic!