If you own an Intel CPU, fill in our survey here (especially if it is unstable): geni.us/INTELFAIL Watch our previous video with Wendell of Level1 Techs: ua-cam.com/video/oAE4NWoyMZk/v-deo.html And watch Wendell's video here: ua-cam.com/video/QzHcrbT5D_Y/v-deo.html You can support our work directly here: store.gamersnexus.net/ or on Patreon: www.patreon.com/gamersnexus
Still think this an over-inflated issue where frequency is still a factor based on older developed (even though new) software parameters causing many of these crashes as the software can't cope with plus 6ghz CPU's just yet effectively (seems like this point is being munted everywhere). We should be sticking it too NVIDIA cont. over fudging this generation of Intel I reckon. Peace! ✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼
I can't disassemble my PC to give these specific CPU markings. Shame there's no where in the software that provides them. But thanks for covering this.
Not knowing whether you're going to have a working CPU in the future and not knowing how the company that sold it to you will be handling the issue is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
This is one of the most insane fk ups on tech ever, and it has been going on since last year with Intel totally quiet in their castle, it is total insanity.
@@radugrigoras Bruh. This shit is literally happening to server farms using *very* conservative settings, with boards that don't even support overclocking. You clearly didn't even watch the video, or apparently *any* videos about the issue.
This is happening to processors running OOTB settings. Stop blaming the end user for the fuck up of a multibillion dollar conglomerate. Feel free to delete your comment.@@radugrigoras
You do know. If it's not working now it won't work in the future. Intel won't fix anything I am 99% sure they wont even say anything. 15th gen is too close all they need to do is play the delay game and then everyone will only be talking about 15th gen. Apple tactics tried and tested. Ignore the plebs who try to speak up and throw shiny new toy at them to distract them. Welcome to the world of tech where no company ever cares about you lol
Yeah, this is good for AMD of course but not really good for consumers. AMD is still a company after all and you best believe that they see this weakness in Intel as an opportunity to raise prices and gobble up more market share. We need both of them competing and Intel is just failing right now.
I can't imagine that someone who set out to start a UA-cam channel for gamer enthusiasts thought that there would be this much investigative journalism involved.
Well, Steves most early content was based around investigative journalism already. He never changed, he just sets the goalpost further and further with every year.
Intel Inside and the "made for" Nvidia thing were still around up to roughly 2010. Games used to show those before you reached the main menu. Don't have to be that old.
One of my more technical inclined friends almost went nuts trying to pin down the issue with his 13900k. The crashes he was experiencing were so sporatic. Turns out one of his cores had died and once he disabled it, the crashes stopped.
Here the same ...always watchdog timeout bsod ...generic error i have replaced all the other pieces ...but didn't work anything ...the only solution was to diasable turbo boost 3 so having the i9 13900k at basic clock without the boost to 5ghz...blocked at 3ghz...i had to buy another one cause at the time there was non of this news as today
@@user-lp4uc6xm6d Hm, I can't say for certain, but I wonder if what you're running into is a newer feature Windows called Core Isolation. If you're experiencing that message again and again, hit Start and search for "Core Isolation" no quotes. You can try disabling memory protection, just be aware that you're technically making the machine less secure than it would be with core isolation.
Yes, the 9800x3d does outperform the 14900k significantly but you should still buy intel because the amd shills and youtube army are secretly sabotaging intel! We will bring this to light shortly! Signed - CPU Master
“AMD Neanderthals™️ have clearly working behind the scenes to infiltrate Intel’s manufacturing facilities and sabotage production when they saw no other way to best Intel. Despite these very isolated and unconfirmed cases Intel still has the best performing CPU’s on the market for both gaming and production no matter what the AMD paid media tells you”
@@GamersNexus I got intel to do a RMA/rebuy request 7 months ago. I experienced some of the weirdest behavior ever in a PC. I could not install Nvidia drivers. I would get a 7zip error. Trying to clean install windows would result in a BSOD 9 out of 10 times. When Windows was installed, there were missing Windows components and device manager would not open. UE5 games would give the out of vram error and crash. Programs like firefox would just randomly crash/close with no error message or anything. If you are looking for a way to detect this, the intel diagnostic tool will report math fail. That is what helped me narrow down that it was the CPU that was the problem.
@@GamersNexus Not OP, but as another 13700K owner (on ASUS Z690-P, 64GB of Corsair Vengeance 5200MHz C40 RAM, 2 Crucial P3 1To, ASUS TUF 3080Ti OC Edition & RM850x for PSU). My use cases were mostly playing retro to modern games, drawing and animating on Clip Studio Paint Ex and streaming through OBS alongside a 3D virtual puppeteering app (Warudo) + Emulation and recording at the same time, which can be very CPU (& GPU) intensive tasks. Would fill the survey, but I unfortunately can't check the few numbers to identify the CPU as this would require me to open up the computer and I need it ready for any work. I've had multiple issues and BSODs that happened roughly a year and a half after I had bought my system, around May 2024 (bought the system in December 2022, system was in actual use since January 2023). Black square artifacting on sites like UA-cam (especially with Cinema mode on), out of memory errors, BSOD and crashes during high CPU usage like streaming or games. There was also nvlddmkm errors which were making me think it was more of an NVidia error during that time, but was NOT the GPU as it worked fine on another machine AND those still happened with a 1080Ti instead. This is just a suspicion, but I think one of my RAM modules also is now malfunctioning because of those errors (and forced me to format my boot drive completely as it BSOD'd during the Windows reinstall process), and I'm in the process of RMAing it for a new pair. The module was thoroughly tested through MemTest86 and shows that it is indeed malfunctioning, but worked completely fine before those crashes started happening. This is only speculation from my own side however, so take that with a rock of salt. The reason why I'm thinking this might be linked though, is while the errors have been less frequent after removing the faulty module, the errors never stopped, and only became less frequent AFTER setting the "Pls respect my power limits" setting in the BIOS... And even then there are still Out of memory/nvlddmkm crashes/BSOD happening once every month or two. It's much more rare, but still happening from time to time. Hopefully this can help in finding out the problems Intel has. Will answer more questions if needed!
@@GamersNexus If it helps, my 13700KF could be made to crash with ASUS's default "AI OC" settings 100% of the time by just trying to run a full Cinebench loop. I am pretty sure this was not happening out of the box and started happening maybe a year in. I got it to stability by lowering the clocks and power limits. When the patches came out it was able to stay stable with a 53x mutiplier, but the thermals were surprisingly bad. As in, suddenly seeming like I may have messed up setting up my AIO for some reason (and yes, I peeled the sticker, I checked). I manually lowered my clocks and power limits again as a result, to maybe a 10% performance cost, but I'm back to being stable AND reasonable temperatures, for now. This thing was purchased in November 2022. Given my thermal issues and the fact that I do need this dumb thing for work I'd rather not mess with it to check the number on the lid, though. This is such a bummer, because now I not only have to worry about whether Intel will do anything about this and whether my CPU will continue to degrade over time, but also have to make a decision between rolling the dice and reward them for their mess up by getting a drop-in replacement or having to pay extra for their failure by also spending several hundred dollars more to move to an AMD platform. In the 2000s I wouldn't have cared much because 60 bucks would get you a decent motherboard, but these things are so expensive now.
My main thought here is how Intel is even going to resolve this. No matter WHAT the culprit/root cause is, there is no easy or especially cheap way Intel can remediate this. If they push "fixes" that lower frequency, memory support, or essentially anything that changes the advertised design specs, it's an extreme case of false advertising for any customer who purchased the chips prior to the change (not to mention it further lengthens the gap of AMD's leads). You can't buy a V8 car with 500hp, that has global issues with misfiring suddenly, and the "fix" is to deactivate two cylinders. Thus making it functionally a v6 with significantly less power. It doesn't work that way. People paid for a product as advertised, and may have made a different choice if the product had these different specifications. This is not a viable solution, and would not only tarnish their reputation further, but would be a massive legal issue. The only ACTUAL option they have (again no matter what the culprit actually is), assuming they can't push a "fix" that does not alter advertised specs, is a recall. This would be extremely costly as this issue seems to have permeated all matkets across many product lines, over a lengthy but unknown amount of time. Recalling all these CPUs would cost them an insane amount of money, and would also still tarnish their reputation significantly even if done as efficiently as possible. This assumes that the culprit is something that _can_ be resolved (aka manufacturing issue, rather than inherent design flaw). Their only true hope here to resolving this issue is that they can release a "fix" via microcode update or otherwise to customers that in no way alters the advertised design specifications/performance of their processors. Their reputation will still take a hit, but it will be the only viable "cheap" way they can pull themselves out of this situation. I suspect their silence is because they are running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to find a way to do just that to avoid the significantly more costly outcomes. While I have personally found Intel to be a completely illogical choice compared to AMD since at least AM5 release, and find no redeeming qualities of current Intel CPUs; as a consumer, I sincerely hope they get their act together and can resolve this properly and compete properly again. Otherwise if AMD continues its dominance, we will eventually see a reverse of the prior times in history where Intel was in such a position with minimal competiton. This was a time when the CPU market/prices prices were like the current GPU market/prices and the top Intel CPUs were like £1k.
The most incomprehensible thing to me is that throughout the roughly six months that this has been a known issue, Intel has kept selling these CPUs, thereby worsening the problem by increasing the number of people affected. Regarding AMD's continued dominance, Microsoft is trying to decrease that by making an operating system so horrible that people are being driven toward Apple.
@@gradystephenson3346 "apple isn't great either no ppl are going to useing Linux" - I agree that Apple isn't great, but they have tricked the general public into believing that they are and that their products are easy to use. As for people switching to Linux, I agree that power users will likely switch to Linux, but I don't foresee the general public switching to Linux. Linux has too little support and too little uniformity. People want a product they can bring to a repair shop if something goes wrong. That isn't Linux, unfortunately.
So I'm not in the industry but did years of grad school work with atomic layer deposition (ALD.) I've not personally worked on plasma-enhanced ALD (PEALD) but you really shouldn't have any oxygen anywhere between the metal-organic or metal-halide tantalum precursor and whatever they use for the nitrogen, which I'd be surprised if it's anything other than ammonia or an N2 plasma. The whole damascene process used for copper interconnects is very old and well studied so they'd have to really screw up their process flow, although ALD hasn't always been used but it's just great because of being able to cover high aspect ratio structures. It's important to realize too that copper can't touch the silicon directly or it will diffuse into it and form deep-level traps that will absolutely ruin your performance. You instead rely on some other thin metallization steps and form silicides with those metals to tune your metal-semiconductor junction and the Schottky barrier height. You can look up the Schottky-Mott rule for more on that. In short though any of that stuff would have been caught well before production, so I doubt ALD and the various process steps for those interconnects are to blame. It would be interesting to see if there are different results from these CPUs depending on if they were manufactured in Hillsboro, OR or Chandler, AZ however. If oxidation is a problem it's definitely a very embarrassing issue considering how hard that would be to have happen. My worry would be it's a defect on one or more lithography masks if that's the case but for it to show up so slowly is just odd considering how hard of a diffusion path it would have. In any case I'm a couple decades removed from the field but if I can help as a sanity check or someone to confirm somewhat basic technical details feel free to hit me up. Also I really don't envy the FA guys you hired because it will be a literal needle in a billion haystacks if it's not one of the giant interconnects. People seem to think it might be related to the ring interconnect as that was a major change from 12th to 13th gen so they may be able to find something without sinking way too much time into it.
As a random guy with zero industry experience, I do want to bring your attention to FogBank. Which is a required material for nuclear weapons. From what I understand, it took an entire research project to figure out why new stuff wasn't working. It turned out the original formula only worked because some impurities, and the newer process used higher purity materials. Which goes to show that even nuclear weapons can be affected by impurities of feedstock.
So its interesting you say that. I work for a large government organization. I am always skeptical of BSODs in enterprise environments as they install all sorts of heavy SEIM and productivity suites on their machines. Midway through last year, our government program saw an elevated rate of GFE (laptop) BSODs that has plagued new team members regularly. Often, GFE reimages do not resolve the issue. Again, the I'd say about 20% of new team member's GFEs are affected. Virtually all the GFE's are $7000+ Dell enterprise Intel laptops. I'll try to find what processors they are using. I know this is only focusing on desktop processors, but I'm starting to wonder if this affects mobile cpu skus as well.
I have a 10900K and nearly upgraded it, my housemate has a 13700K and it's his second. The first one became temperamental and there were lots of unexplained system crashes while gaming. He like anyone else did not suspect the CPU and we benched swaps of all other likely components to cause the issue and it was not resolved. He RMA'd his 13700K and Intel reported that it was faulty and sent him a new one, the new CPU ran fine for a few weeks but the crashing has begun to return. This new information has been a real eye opener!
Same here i have a i7 12700K and almost upgraded it to the 14th gen, thank god i didn’t. when i build my new rig ill use a amd cpu. But honestly intel hasn’t been bad at all tbh
Yeah because it's never the CPU! That's the most reliable part of the system... or so I thought. There have been CPU recalls in the past, but it's been a long time. Most CPUs over the years have been extremely reliable even if you did overclock them a lot.
Wow - Steve coughing up close to 5 figures for FA analysis for a couple of failed chips is a big investment for your channel. It speaks to your dedication to providing the best and most accurate information you can *afford* to obtain to help inform your audience. Kudos to you for being willing to spend some money to get real independent data to inform your audience.
GN takes journalism very seriously. This ain't LTT where they throw thousands of dollars at watercooling toilet seats for likes and subs. GN spends their money on investigative reporting to force the industry to do better and be better.
i love how alot of other hw news outlets just said "100% failure rate on all intel cpus" instead of the correct version "100% of failures at some server providers are intel cpus"
Exactly that kind of lying, misleading titles, is one of the reasons, the current culture world is going down the drain politically. Everything is black and white now, everything is ultra exaggerated and blown out of proportions. I also blame youtube and its algorithm, for teaching millions of people that exaggerated or misleading titles, "are good" and worse, making them necessary.
Still, having a CPU failure in a server environment is a verr very rare thing...if you have some servers and all intel ones do fail that's basically the last time you bought intel CPUs.
It's because Alderon Games (maker of Path of Titans) said: "Over the last 3-4 months, we have observed that CPUs initially working well deteriorate over time, eventually failing. The failure rate we have observed from our own testing is nearly 100%, indicating it's only a matter of time before affected CPUs fail." This seems like a direct accusation of 100% failure rate on all 13th and 14th gen intel cpus to me, and what the media would report on.
@@KingOfBritains to be fair. They do have observed a 100% failure rate in a server environment (no oc, conservative voltages and memory speeds, excessive cooling, everything build according to HCL ) even a failure rate of 5% would be unheard of.
Man I'd really hope this does not tank Intel foundries too much. We're in need of an alternative to those aliens at TSMC, not because I don't like them but because that particular corner of the world has the heat cranked up and I don't really know how long it will be until it starts boiling
A fabrication issue with the chips is basically a worst case scenario for Intel. It means there are no actual fixes for the chips currently in circulation and even things like lower power limits and clocks will just be temporary solutions.
@@CNTRI715it being a fabrication issue only means there is no fix. But doesn't necessarily mean limiting the CPU's is a temporary solution. They might be just fine or have not nearly as bad of an issue as what you mentioned. Again, ofc It could be what you said, but not necessarily.
@@camplethargic8 I wasn't meaning to 'shout', maybe I should use underscoring. :) That said, this shouldn't happen to the customers, who inherently trust the judgment of the CPU engineers' - that the top CPU they're (customers) buying is going to be stable with sufficient cooling solution for years to come.
@@camplethargic8 Which is a good thing - any solution at this point which helps to remediate that, is welcome! I'm using (a bit outdated at this point) X299 platform, but it's rock stable since late 2018 (when I bought it), so I believe Intel can find a solution to fix it. :)
Can we all agree on how lucky we are that there are small organizations out there like GN that are still consumer focused? And that they can survive on the smallest of support like simply buying a nice T-shirt or a kick-ass work mat... I will be putting in a order shortly boys, and I can honestly say it doesn't feel like enough in exchange of all the great info you have brought to light these many months...Keep up the great work and we'll keep watching.
@@ze-ph9774 for context AU - "Australia" would likely impose a fine 7 figures and up and require Intel / OEM's to honor out of date warranty's at the cost to the buisness not the customer to return or refund said items . the cost of the later part of this statement FAR out weighs the fine in Logisitics costs alone . The general concensus being STAY TF OUT of AU / EU commerce courts as it gets WILDY expensive and very damamging to public appeal / stock price ...
The potential impact on the tech industry and Intel's reputation could be significant. Maintaining transparency and speedily addressing these issues should be Intel's top priority.
@@PineyJustice The concerning part about that is that Intel seems to be unable to detect the issue beforehand and has not yet fixed it for newer units, leading to replacements with the same problems.
To even consider investing 5 figure per CPU amount, to confirm something that should be Intel's resposibility to confirm, just tells you how much integrity GN staff has.
Oh it definitely is Intel's responsibility to confirm. But the big difference is that GN will go public with their findings, while Intel will sweep it under the rug.
I don't think it's about integrity. It's interesting to a lot of people so GN wants to be able to break the results, which Intel most certainly won't publish in full, if at all. Despite the looks, Steve is not Tech Jesus. It is, however, excellent that he's built a channel that can afford to do this and is willing to invest the money to get it done. It's a long play - the video with the results will likely not recoup the cost of doing it, especially when there's a chance the results won't be conclusive. It *is* notable that much larger YT media like LTT aren't doing it, while GN is, and despite my distaste for Steve's navel-gazing and self-on-back-patting, we're all better off because GN exists.
@@jeffb.6642 Lawyers will find it during discovery, if such internal evidence exists. And this type of failure screems for a class action lawsuit if Intel won't compensate affected users and OEMs adequatly.
I'm sorry man, I hope intel looks after you. I've definitely been a supporter of AMD recently because I think they've made better products but I'm extremely disappointed in how intel is treating their customers. I hope the baseline profile keeps you from having issues man :(
"We cannot comfortably reccomend intel CPUs at this point" Steve @GN delivering one of the most devastating blows to one of the biggest players in the industry I have ever seen.
@@raskalthefirst There is (was) a good reason for that: Intel was leagues ahead in terms of integration testing and stability (AMD has always had weird sh-t happen, especially at chipset level - the last time they were rock solid was with the God-tier Opterons). Also, Intel have always had much better IPC and latency for uarch-targeted workloads (ie when you use builds tuned for a uarch). Steve and his denunciation doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since enterprise is the market Intel cares about. What matters is that massive players are seeing failures. And they're not fail-closed failures where the box dies - that could still be somewhat tenable - it's a failure mode where the CPU continues to appear to work and garbles data. There is currently *no* protection in DBMSes against this - it is assumed that CPUs will not garble data and ECC protects it in RAM - whatever checksum/other consistency methods are employed, they're for secondary storage. Having a large number of CPUs fail like this with no way to detect what they've garbled and for how long before anyone noticed is beyond catastrophic. And for the first time in two decades, CIOs who kept mainframes or Nonstops get to justifiably larf at people with COTS boxen ;)
My 14900KS has given me ZERO issues. It's a CPU meant for hardcore enthusiasts who know how to navigate the BIOS without the need for a mouse. We don't leave our silicon at the mercy of some random "AI Overclocking tool"
Its funny considering Intel has done the "glued together" method many times - Q6600, Pentium D, early i series processors (Socket 1156) had a separate north bridge on the chip etc.
The i5 K CPUs seem to be doing fine, it's just the i7 and i9 K CPUs shitting their pants right now (although that could change with more time and investigation).
Think you're safe, i7s and i9s k-ks are at risk. I dodged the bullet with 12700KF & 12900KF. Believe I'm gaming more stably with the e cores off, less crashing. The P cores are really good, not that I can compare it to Ryzen this gen, just other Intels.
Lowering performance to avoid the issue is unacceptable. All that means is that they've discovered that they can push broken CPUs past the warranty period.
Just imagine to fork out lots of money for a high end CPU, only to be forced to downgrade that CPU to the performance of a much cheaper CPU. I would not feel happy about that. On top of that, there is always a possibility that those measures will only delay the failures and the downgraded CPU will fail at a later point anyway. I guess that would make you not feel comfortable...
@@nichfra Honestly, in EU (or at least Poland) I've experienced far less obvious cases of manufacturer's fault and still have been refunded. You just need to know your rights. We have a public consumer's protection office and you can call them for advice on what to do. I have one story where our garage door failed to open and the company that did the job, not only had to fix the door, but paid for, and installed a new window, because we had to break one to get in. If we didn't call the office we wouldn't even know we could do that.
I actually work in IT for a relatively large German investment company and you can't imagine how relieved I am that we managed to get around all the recent issues of the last two weeks... Crowdstrike was offered to us on the phone just a few weeks ago and we didn't order the new Intel stuff because it was too costly and not really necessary. Our... buisness ventures include mostly supermarkets and Kindergardens, we specialize in "critical infrastructure", so that would have been BAD.
I have one of these processors in the list on a just over 1 year build. It has been randomly freezing up on boot sometimes but recovers after a minute or two. I have tried testing ram, SSD and power supply but the issue continues. It makes me think it might be the processor now that is the issue. Thanks for you guys work trying to hold these large companies accountable!
I just built a new rig three weeks ago, and I was going back and forth between a 7800X3D and a 14th gen i7. Ended up going with the 7800X3D due to the good reviews. If I had went with the i7 Id be absolutely furious. I wouldn't even be able to enjoy my PC, even if it was working, cause I'd always be scared it'll die at any minute. Shame on Intel for their silence. I know they have to protect themselves but man... you gotta say something. Anything.
13700k owner here. Thank you for looking into this, I've had some super weird crashes along with devices randomly connecting and disconnecting. Driving me crazy.
Same here... Been stable up until 2 months ago and all of a sudden my microphone randomly dissapearing from connected devices even though it worked fine before and is less then 6month old. Getting BSOD after windows 11 updates, random VRAM issues... Money down the drain
@@isellfreemoney9899Hitachi, and ironically Hitachi fixed the problems and eventually had an extremely good line of drives out of the deal. To this day, I still run Hitachi drives descended from Deskstar. Western Digital now owns that line of drives and they are excellent. My home NAS is 30TB of those drives. IBM giving up and selling to someone who could fix it was a great move in the end.
Since it took this long to even spot and being able to talk about the issue, I don't think intel is going anywhere. It seems alot of people and companies will keep buying their CPUs, regardless of model and accompanied issues, severity be damned.
lol oh shit! omg, talk about problem from the past, and not only did it almost tank IBM, and effectively perminatly screw up how people thought about the company, but they've been basically just back end since
Whatever the issue is, it's NOT simply a power issue. I "fixed" my PC several times by adjusting power settings and EVERY TIME it became unstable again after a month or so. There is clearly a physical issue causing degrading stability.
Same here. 13700K replaced by Intel a few weeks ago. October 2023 purchase. Stock clocks and power settings. Months stable and then...multiple tweaks over months, each instability came more frequent in time the the prev tweak. Whatever went bad was getting worse. Lowering clocks and adding a little volts were typical tweaks.
It is a power issue, specifically a voltage issue. But you don't reverse degradation, it only ever gets worse with time. It will cause the chip to require more and more voltage which then causes the degradation to accelerate even faster. If you want to stop it you need to cap your clocks and keep the chip very cool with the lowest voltage it can possibly run, even then if its badly enough degraded it may be too late. Reducing ring speed will help as well.
@@JathraDH Okay so ~1.3v is/was too much and degraded my CPU. Got it. At install I was undervolted 0.05 and was under 1.3 at load (e.g. x264). Anyway as I lowered clocks the voltage of course is lowered (dynamic VID), and my net voltage was getting lower than initial at full/stock 5.3 clock. The V/F curve is pretty steep at the high end. What were my tweaks doing. Capping clocks and running the lowest voltage the CPU could possibly run on. Your words. My voltage increases were like 0.01, 0.02 steps. Clocks were 200Mhz changes.
@@normanblack4005 Yea the issue is 1.3v is fine but the 1.5v it shoves through the vcore and ring when its 2 special cores are boosting to 5.8+ and the chip is seeing a temp heat spike on those cores is not fine. Lowering power caps doesn't fix this because when only those 1-2 cores are boosting the chip is drawing well under its power limit. If you shut down the super turbo boost all together then I have no idea, perhaps everything I have been hearing is wrong. My 13900K is still running 100% fine after 1.5 years but its been on a very overbuilt custom loop.
To be honest I wont be even considering Intel 13th, 14th and 15th generation - at this point it doesn't even matter what's the real issue, their lack of communication made me lose all trust I had in them, why would I expect that 15th gen wouldn't start dying year after release? And for people that had issues with stability: Check your local consumer protection laws, you may be able to return these faulty CPUs for full price. For example I managed to return friends CPU on basis that Intel tried fix this issue once (BIOS update) and the issue still persist.
I'm feeling so smug about my build from 6 months ago, I swerved Intel for the first time in my computer life because they're on the Izraeli boycott list
How is that? If they don't have a single root cause or solution yet, what more can they say beyond RMA problem CPUs? 15th Gen is run on a different process and TSMC. Totally unrelated.
Yep! Although, I think he'd probably do it when everything is clear. He's not one to kind of speculate on these things, I think. Upcoming techniques for sure, but not really for current problems right?
As someone who is 100% affected by this it is becoming incredibly frustrating knowing that they know there’s an issue with no response. Currently have a ticket open with intel as the retailers basically refused to help. I wish it was just instability but it appears to be straight up dead
Damn, i seriously hadnt thought about anything related to intel with the ryzen launch... this is really bad for them if they dont say a word because odds are you wont be the only one saying intel cannot be recommended. Thanks for all you do with your thorough investigation and research cause thats one of the things i love about this channel besides the benchmarks you do!
@@theshadowoftruth7561dont think so, heck we even have gaming studios that openly said, they will switch to amd cpu's for their servers. This is THE chance for amd to claim a huge part of market share
@@theshadowoftruth7561That would be one approach… but a better one might actually be a slight decrease in price! It wouldn’t pay off straight away, of course, but if it turns them into longer term AMD customers, it would be worth it
Not really of you think about it logically. They have 2 entire gens that are absolute failures and have some very deep problems probably related to something that happens in the fabs. This is a collosal f-up and their PR people are pissing blood right now trying to figure out how to spin this
Wendell was pretty clear on the fact that the mobile processors based on desktop parts (renamed/lower TDP) were likely affected at a lower rate. He also insinuated that some of the data supported potential 12th gen issues.
Don't have any info on if it 100% does affect mobile CPU's BUT from personal experience I have been encountering similar random BSOD's (no not crowdstrike) on my personal laptop with a 13700H. I have also seen an article which did mention that there is a possibility that mobile CPU's are having elevated levels of failures than normal for 13/14th gen Intel chips.
@@NadeemAhmed-nv2bri9-13900HX has the same die as the desktop version, same specs. I guess the failure rate is so low because it's voltage optimized for laptop use. Many of those i9s don't have an IHS and have liquid metal.
Incredibly concerning that Intel hasn't dealt with this yet. They've shipped and sold tens of millions of defective products to both consumers and business partners.
My friend helped me build a PC last year, truth be told we were the blind leading the blind neither of us knew a thing and I'm barely learning still. I was tempted to get a new Intel chip but my buddy's experience was with AMD so I decided to start there. I think I owe him a beer, now.
lets be real 99 times out of 100 AMD has 10x more problems than intel. This is just extremely unlucky for intel, I still would not touch anything AMD on those odds.
@@Paul11 It's not unlucky, nothing to do with luck, everything to do with company culture for Intel. Gonna need some serious source on that 99 out of a 100 nonsense if you choose to write that on this channel particularly.
I don't think its OEMs experiencing the problems sooner. Its that the problem's symptoms are so common that people apply it to other things. Current gaming industry makes half baked, half stable games that keep crashing on daily basis. By adding another crashing cause you wont see the difference until you look at statistics. So a good example is a youtuber named Splitsie. He had games crashing constantly during his streams, and he blamed the games. But after Wnedel's video, I asked him, does he have an intel 13 or 14 gen cpu, and he said "oh yeah, I do, I read the articles but never connected the dots". So the problem is affecting more people, they just don't think its a CPU problem, but distribute blame between the games they play.
It manifested on me in the form of access violations getting caught by my debugger when working on a professional UE5 game. For a day or two I actually thought I had introduced some weird bug into the code until I realized it was sporadic and unrelated to any changes I made. It can be devious to track down.
So if I understand this correctly corporate customers get affected chips replaced free of charge, retail customers get to pay full price and have their systems crippled to "SOLVE" the problem. Sounds distressingly familiar.
yeah that's part of their enterprise support agreement lol. intel's liable for their hardware not working. that's why intel charges them tens of thousands of dollars and you get charged a few hundred.
There's no such thing as "affected chip". Every CPU intel ships out is in perfect working order. The problem is in the way the motherboard handles the cpu, what frequency/ temperature/ voltage they target. The "issue" seems to be worsened significantly by some "ai overclocking" setting available on certain motherboards. Essentially they shove a huge load of voltage to the cpus to maintain stability at really high clocks. Now servers on the other hand, they have it really bad. Companies run houndreds of these systems side by side on a cramped space at unbearable temperatures, just remember how much power a single of this puppies uses under full load. That and the fact that those major companies are running those cpus with the bare basics cpu coolers, they are all about profits, can't afford no direct die custom loop system for every rig....
The issue is real, everyone knows its real, even Intel knows it but they dont want to talk about it. What i think it should be right to do until they face and fix the issue publicly 1. Dont promote any Intel product 2. Dont show any Intel product brand in any video 3. Dont do benchmarks or reviews or use any Intel product 4. State in every video that any Intel CPU is not recommended (until this is fixed) 5. Dont promote anything about upcoming Intel cpus. Hitting where it hurts...their wallet/earnings.
Imagine buying a Maserati and the manufacturer issues recall, you go to the dealer and they tell you "we gotta patch your car so instead of doing 0-60 in 4 seconds it will need 8 seconds now" then send you on your way. lol
So glad this is coming up. I have a 14900k and crashes CONSTANTLY on Maya and after effect with a 360mm AIO with intel base power profile. Driving me literally insane
As a 13900ks owner, I had no issue until I played robocop rogue city. I got 3 random crashes over 6 hours of gaming. not the ue5 out of vram, but dx3d device hung. The only instability I have had that was "consistent." The end result was due to all these warnings of degradation, i installed the newest bios and lost 7% benchmark performance. Seeing as i paid like an extra 180 for a KS chip..... I want some sort of compensation, even if my chip does not die. I am using a z790 Pro Art from asus with 7200 ram. To be clear, my cinebench score was about 4.5 percent lower than the average K score, effectively nulifying the money i spent on a ks. Intel lost me a as a customer.
While true, it's basically the same as why you don't tell the police what you're guilty of when they pull you over. You have the 5th amendment right to not self-incriminate.
If it shows on the bottom line the banks will be mad and ask tough questions on their next earnings call. I'd expect we might get more info on this then
They pretty much have to do that. Companies have a duty first to protect shareholder value, and part of that includes saying as little as possible that could undermine that value. Everything else, including owing truth to customers and employees, comes after that.
I can't imagine any enterprise impacted by this sticking with Intel exclusively after this. It's hard enough to imagine them using Intel at all. It would still have been bad, if Intel had come forward, but their silence is damning.
@@Razzbow There is still a LONG way to go to just AMD be on par in volume to Intel. And it would be good if AMD would get a leg up to at least get closer to 50% market share as they deserve it.
AMD really is that bad, that virtually no one is going to do it. nevermind consistent bugs in their firmware, ryzen processors create the worst numa nightmares possible which is probably the most costly 4 letter word in systems administration
I feel that the most dangerous thing for Intel is not even a recall or some kind of reimbursement but the loss of trust from the point of view of the consumer… honestly it’s been bad enough for those affected, especially large data center customers, currently that it’s hard to imagine them recovering from this fully in the near future
@@darschpugs4690 They could give the options they are thinking of, i.e. if its hardware issue they will replace with the newer cpus, if its microcode they will release as soon as they can be sure it will fix, etc...
Silence? They already gave their answer a month ago. None of the mobo manufacturers were following their guidance. Go cry to ASUS, MSI or whatever. Learn how to OC yourself instead of AI overclocker. Be a man
All of the affected CPUs will ultimately have to be replaced. Running them slower just delays the ultimate failure due to oxidation. So, any units after 12th gen simply can't be trusted.
Ironically, my I9-13900k Chrome window crashed 4 times while watching this. The processor and build was bulletproof then just like a switch was flipped, it all went to hell. Let me know where to sign up for the class action lawsuit.
Even though this doesn't and probably won't ever affect me or my 12100f, Intel's response to this may very well be the driving force that pushes me and many others away who previously stood by Intel and their products. Who would want to invest in a product with such excessive faults and next to no agency from the manufacturer for a solution or reimbursement? I'm just glad I didn't go too deep down the Intel hole...
At first it was only xx900 CPUs. Then xx700 started popping up, but in much less frequent numbers. Now reddit sees more xx700 CPUs daily, and the first xx600 CPUs have just been reported by Steve's source. So, yup... you should be glad it's a 12100f and not a 13100f you have, because if this shit keeps going, then even xx100 CPUs might end up failing.
The good news is that there are currently very competitive products that don't require any compromises. The bad news is that this hasn't always been the case and may someday be inadequate again. The market benefits from both companies innovating and having success. We don't win if one of them stumbles.
@@andersjjensen Nah, he'll be fine. The 13100 is just a rebranded 12100, anyway. From all the various reports of affected CPUs you can at least draw the conclusion that Alder Lake (12th gen) is fine. It's just Raptor Lake (and of course RL-refresh, since it's basically the same thing).
Just in case, check your CPU voltages on HWInfo64 and in your BIOS. Hopefully, Intel did not overvolt some of their lower end CPUs. We can't trust Intel or AMD on this. I still remember AMD's 1.5v idle on my 3700X, and some people claimed it was okay. I updated BIOS and undervolted that insane voltage. AMD/Intel juice up (more voltage) their some weaker parts to meet marketing specs.
Would be interesting to bench Intel CPU's at that 53x multiplier with DDR5-4800 and contrast that with "default" "out-of-the-box" specs so people can get an idea of how much they stand to lose.
Wow, having to fully swear off an entire brand because their problems are so bad and their response is worse...wild. Thanks GN! I appreciate what you do and the information you share with us consumers!
Different cpu in socket solves the problem. I haven't had much time to play games, at most 50 hours on this cpu, and now that I think about it, Sons of the forest kept crashing. I mainly used the pc for web programming with notepad++, so the heaviest loads always have been chrome or discord. Contact frame did not help, cpu pretty much never above 55C with custom loop. Rma with Intel approved.
Mine had chrome crashing too.. coupled with crashing the network drivers. funny to notice that first the video /browser crashes and then i cant get back to youtube.. had to restart the whole system several times per day. the system in question been in the shop for last 4 weeks (was a 1 week estimate) waiting for parts for warranty.. i guess they cant find a working i9 safe to assume that this will be the last intel cpu ill buy cause at this stage they mightaswell just set ablaze to their factories and f off from the biz.
But have you had any problems? I have a 13900K myself. I've had the TDP limited since the beginning, because it actually performs better when it never draws enough power to get hot enough to throttle. Other than that though, no unusual crashes or any other problems related to it.
@@Sotanaht01no issues yet*. Everything is pointing to the more you use it the quicker it starts to mess up. Or you just have a good one that has no issues.
I'm using a 12600K and although it's probably not affected by these issues the way Intel is handling all of this is definitely convincing me to go AMD in the future. Might actually sell my CPU and board soon and go for a Zen 5 CPU this fall.
It seems that Intel has manufactured 13th & 14th Gen chips at 2 locations Kiryat Gat, Israel, and Chandler, Arizona. Not sure of the % manufautred at either location but if oxidation is an issue and Wendell's rough calculation that 50% of chips might need to be replaced that sure makes it seem like one of those two locations is the issue. A fab level manufacturing defect like that could also completely explain why Intel has been so tight lipped about this. It could jeopardize the growth of intel foundry services which is vital to Intel's continued viability as a manufacturer and not just a chip designer.
Since a month ago there have been reports that Intel won't be continuing with the construction of the new $25 billion fab in Kiryat Gat. Might be related, might be due to the Gaza crisis, might be both.
It's really too bad, this whole situation. They've pushed the monolithic high frequency envelope too far to the point where the manufacturing process fails to be robust enough to handle it. AMD runs hot, but at less power, and they aren't having this mode of failure. Great reporting as always. You present facts and any conjecture is specifically called as such. Keep on doing the good work, my friends.
I’ve had the 14900K since September 2023 - day one, delidded. Undervolted and set limitations on the power delivery. Additionally, I limited the two P-Cores from boosting to 6GHz. And despite all of that, I started experiencing system instability in June 2024. WHEA errors and system freezes, leaving my PC completely unresponsive. This has occurred roughly 6-8 times since June. I think it’s only a matter of time for most chips, especially if mine with compensation like delidding and power limits being in-place from the point of installation, started experiencing these symptoms. As someone who has reliably built with Intel parts for two decades, this generation will be the tipping point for me.
I7-13700K here, I have gone through 2 CPUS actually, seme BS as you WHEA and full system freezes specifically in a few scenarios, playing star citizen and streaming using OBS so high system usage, and weirdly, running bluestacks, the first CPU ate itself and stopped booting, the second one just does the system freezes, I have had 30+ freezes every single time a patch for obs or the games I play comes out until I configure the latest settings to not overtax the machine. I am beyond Tilted at this point.
Well it is plausible as you are going outside of the expected use case you caused your troubles and it has nothing to do with whatever this larger problem is. Not saying I think that is the case. Simply that just one data point isn't very conclusive, and delidding isn't a zero risk operation. Still undervolted, power limited and presumably with a chip temperature that is both more even across the chip and lower than normal really does sound bad for Intel - if it was just a case of they over rated their products by a tiny margin more than than the weakest ones off the production line can actually handle that wouldn't be good, but also not too terrible, tuning down a monster CPU a tiny bit so it won't blow up isn't going to really upset too many folks enough to hurt Intel much. But when it sounds like you haven't let the chip get even near its rated performance limits....
As a Service Technician here in Australia I've seen a large volume of intel CPU's coming in and testing as faulty, it's frustrating for us because we now have such a large volume of systems taking up space waiting for replacement CPU's form intel that can sometimes take up too 3 weeks.
@@TryHardNewsletter Those 13th and 14th gen laptop cpu are largely for gaming laptops and just as old as the desktop ones, if they were failing we'd see them on those game error reports like the warframe one I believe it was. They never marked like 5 that were under 1% but I assume none of those were intel cpus so wouldn't be the laptop ones since they skipped labeling one that was higher up in the pie chart because it wasn't intel I assume. So that means the laptop ones at least aren't showing up in anything notable enough to even report... so even if they do have problems maybe it would take so long the laptops would be largely obsolete anyways and on top of it any updates intel gives would even further prolong it's life making a small risk almost insignificant.
I work at a small HPC org, one of our technicians personal rigs were having issues due to their 14900K causing corruption of kernel drivers when doing heavy compiling workloads. They did 2 RMAs before getting a full refund from our provider Also have read many other reports of issues with I/O and NTFS issues on windows. This oxidation theory is seeming scary accurate
I don't see how anyone can justify buying an Intel CPU at this point. As a person who refreshes once every 7 to 10 years, I won't invest in a CPU that has a coin toss chance of being dead in a year. My Skylake 6700K is still operational in 2024 as it should be. Yes, I also have an AM4 system, and yes I am super glad I went the AMD route. Heck, even my AM3 CPU is still alive, and I still use it. This situation is so far from normal for any cpu.
@@orfeous The 13700 is affected by this issue, with expectation that the 14700 will similarly be affected. I hope you end up being one of the lucky ones, but at this time the failure rate 1 year out seems to be somewhere on the order of 1 in 4 ; possibly higher with more time passing if it turns out to be this oxidation issue. With Intel not saying anything about whether they will replace them, I wouldn't have gone with Intel.
Had my i7-13700KF for about 8 months now. It started with small crashes to desktop in the first month - Now i'm having decompression issues that won't let me enter some games and some games just blue screen. Reducing it to 52x ratio is the only thing letting me play games as of right now.
Again, RMA now while you still can, then sell the platform with the RMA'd CPU, if Intel is driving enterprise customers to AMD, they're in deep shit. So better be proactive on the issue because as I feared since the beginning of these symptoms, they're not fixable.
@@benjaminsmekens2344I would very much agree with this! Although it's shitty for whoever you sell it to, it's just about the only chance you get to recoup the cost for your other component. Intel may swap your CPU, but they'll give a wet f*rt on your mainboard. There's decently prices AM5 boards out there now, Zen 5 is right around the corner and if you wait for X3D, that'll wipe the floor anyway with whatever Intel has later this year.
Or just run Intel at baseline power profile with JEDEC memory speed (5600). It almost doesn’t even matter. AMD is going to be curb stomping Intel until Arrow Lake comes out. Adjusting the settings on Intel CPU’s is just changing the amount by which they get beat. Combined with higher power draw and (frequently) higher price, there’s literally no reason to consider Intel for the next few months even if their CPU’s were stable.
@@benjaminlynch9958 Intel degradation story is probably the ring disintegrating from Vcore beeing very high (which is necsessary for 1T - 2T Pcore boost). Placing MEMORY on JEDEC-5600 or XMP-7200 or MANUAL OC-7600 doesnt really matter is instability comes from the ring. Power limiting doesn't really matter as 1 - 2 (probably not even 4) cores loaded can't pull 125W CPU Packdage power.
Finally people will stop saying I have a skill issue with my 13900k. Now I can deflect it towards intel! I have about 8000 hours of time on my cpu, and issues started after about 2000 hours. I got some stability back from locking speeds to 5.5ghz. I got more from updating bios and setting power limits manually. I didn't have a bsod for months but now I occasionally bsod OR power-down. It's definitely degrading. The cpu is delidded and has been running cool at around 35° - 55°c the whole time.
my Intel 14900k started to fail this week = July 10th ,2024, temps / voltages in check. when i upgrade to Ryzen next week il send you the code on it. ty 4 being great and good to the comunity.
I find it concerning that two generations are affected and it took this long to get any traction. 13k has been out for years. Apparently marginal stability was deemed acceptable by OEMs and 'enthusiasts' for this long? Seen so many 13900k owners running around on forums trying to push people towards these chips. Meanwhile, a good number of them were undoubtedly experiencing mysterious stability issues that they conveniently failed to mention. Really an indictment of both the 'enthusiast community' and Intel here I think. It shouldn't take years for obvious problems with a platform to be mentioned. To the few that have been honest about the issues with their systems over the years...Thank you for informing your fellow consumers instead of allowing your ego to motivate obfuscation of the full truth.
I guarantee you many of the issues people have are just assumed to be Windows issues. I always hypothesized many of issues attributed to software are really hardware issues but as they happen infrequently and not in ways that you would attribute to hardware like hard crashes or crashing under load most assume it's just "windows being windows". I've personally never had many issues with any software but I am also weird in that I don't OC even in the slightest, I refuse to even run XMP memory. Also, I do think in general many "enthusiasts" are just willing to accept and not care about instability issues because their PC for lack of a better word is a tinker toy. They aren't truly relying on it to do anything but play games and tinker with it, both are relatively unimportant.
@@zacharytaylor8523 I'm sure you're right, especially since some of the errors (such as 'out of vram') aren't normally associated with CPU instability. I'm very much in the 'stability is essential and the number one priority' camp. It's concerning to see how long an issue like this remained under the radar.
I agree I find it weird how such widespread issues of 10-25% of chips having significant failures while running so roughly 18% of chips at almost the end of the second generation of the affected chips no less is now all of a suddenly noticed... Maybe it isn't actually that bad? Maybe the majority of the roughly 20% affected chips isn't a massive failure but an app crash once every week or so and that's about it? So not good but not the end of the world for most people that use 13th and 14th gen chips and any updates from intel might largely fix even that so this media coverage is making it seem far worse than it might be for the average person?
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep From a certain OEM, the 10-25% are certain chips believed to be affected by accelerated degradation from current RMAs and their production lots. From the RMAs, the OEM figured out which CPUs are likely to fail. Now, it is a waiting game to see how many CPUs will fail by the end of the warranties. Is this line on the graph going to be linear or exponential? We can only wait for data and Intel to make an announcement. The data centers and game company servers start failing the fastest because their CPUs are running 24/7 all-year-round. Allegedly, stock voltages are too high, which cause degradation that accelerates with more uptime. Raptor Lake came out in October 2022, and by the end of 2025, the first batch of these CPUs' warranties expire. The complaints are piling up now because OEMs and DIYers are starting to get hit by persistent instability. Intel's expected lifespan of Raptor Lake might have been off by a year if more Raptor Lake CPUs have hit their limits at stock settings and require undervolt and underclocking to maintain functionality.
@@battmarn Slow in math heavy apps and "power hungry" (95W was considered power hungry back then), but wicket fast at code compile and other logic heavy tasks. There were many many programmers who adored them. However, the performance uplift from the Phenom X6 1100T I had at the time was not enough to entice me. But yes, they run to this day. My friend has one that has been competitively overclocked for prolonged periods that sits in his NAS and chugs along just fine.
@@andersjjensenthey had cache issues, as instead of 8 core processors they were 2 4 core processors glued together, not like ryzen though. Was good for high speed traders though.
I remember shitting on Intel for their complacency back in the forever 14nm days, all the while facepalming at the colossal disappointment that was AMD's Bulldozer and Piledriver architectures. Now I'm praying Intel will rescue themselves from this extremely worrying position. If you don't have performance, efficiency or even the Intel mainstay, stability, no one even remotely informed will buy your products. For the health of the hardware market, I hope they recover from this soon and make things right for their customers.
Actually Bulldozer is great. I am typing this message on a machine with a FX 8320-E. Bought a i7 4090K around the period i bought this. Although the i7 was faster at compiling C++ code, the FX was not far behind. This AMD system is still super stable never had a blue screen or freeze where the i7 had a few(same mb brand, same ram same Sata SSD!). FX was only inferior if you play games which i don't. But in normal staff like web browsing, Microsoft APPs, developing, it is FAST!!!! even now after so many years.
@@dfloper For the right price, it was a viable budget CPU, and like yours, mine was also quite stable. However, it is underwhelming compared to the zen CPUs we now enjoy.
@@dfloper I was going to say, Bulldozer had its issues, but as multi-threading, OS scheduling, and compilers improved the processors was able to run better than on launch. Intel on the other hand the past decade has had huge performance hits after launch for the spectre/meltdown malware mitigations and now this if they have to throttle the CPUs down to keep them stable.
Yeah, if Intel implodes over this who the hell is going to be able to compete with AMD? It's going to be an absolute nightmare for consumers. They better find a way to right this ship and sort out their QC issues. I'm betting the introductory MSRP of Zen 5 is going up by ten dollars for every day that this Intel scandal continues.
I think we need proof of life before we make the claim they are still alive while being buried this hard with no public statements trying to damage control...
me and my old man have a pair of 4790k's that are 10 years old and still in use. meanwhile their current products dont even last 1 year... i **want** to buy intel but goddamn im not touching that mess.
Calling it now. $1-2 billion loss for Intel, including fines if the European Commission doesn't slam the hammer. If they do similarly to VW's Dieselgate, Intel might be facing bankruptcy.
@quantum5661 I have done multiple 7800x3d builds. They are so efficient. My office is noticeably cooler. Look for a microcenter and pickup their bundle. I still have a 3770k I bust out for something now and then. Going to am5 will feel amazing.
Great content! Appreciate the technical dive-in-where I don’t understand all of it, it lends credibility to the need for independent reviews of hardware.
A deposition issue would indicate a failure at one of Intel's fabs not just with one of their pieces of equipment but with the calibration, QA and maintenance processes there so severe it would call for the removal of the entire executive team at that facility. Intel would be looking at a product liability lawsuit that could actually break the company.
@@exponentmantissa5598up to 2 million CPU’s. For ONE customer. Just for 13th gen. Adjust upward for all customers and 14th gen, and 10 million CPU’s is not an unrealistic liability here. This could very easily be $5-8 Billion dollars before all is said and done, and that doesn’t even account for repetitional damage and lost sales because of lost trust.
@@exponentmantissa5598 Intel was already not looking great with AMD slowly taking over all their markets and their GPUs still being a money sink with little returns. If they now have to deal with literally millions of broken chips, that'd be a huge deal.
@@benjaminlynch9958 It could easily be more than 5-8bil if it can be shown that Intel was aware of issues and still sold the CPUs. The damages for most of their customers are way larger than just the cost of the CPU (downtimes, service personnel, etc.).
@@exponentmantissa5598 If they really produced and somehow released 25% of all 13th and 14th gen consumer grade chips with faulty deposition processes that is tens of millions of affected chips. The consumer class action lawsuit in the US will be one of if not the biggest such settlement ever. It will make the tobacco and asbestos settlements look like pocket change. The EU will hit Intel with an equivalent fine. All the commercial buyers will also sue and get settlements that will amount to free CPU's forever. Intel's best hope is that the machine is somehow at fault and they can pass the buck back to the manufacturer.
That oxidation theory is pretty solid. It's definitely something to do with the photolithography / fabrication process. I just didn't know if it was a excessive contamination issue, or the QC team not properly binning chips properly.
Just imagine 9 000 000 CPU RMAs... OMG, used market also f****d up too. You no longer can be sure that cheap or expensive CPU is fine even if it working.
Basically your only options right now are 12th gen, then 13th gen from i3 to i5-13500. Anything higher is a big no no. 14th gen should be banned entirely.
@SunnyWave174 That's fine. When AMD was the inferior option, they still had loyalists. Now that things have flipped, it's only reasonable to expect that there are loyal Intel users that stick by them when they're struggling.
Last Intel CPU for me was i7 9700K (since Core2 E6400 days). I grew tired of having to change the complete system for every CPU upgrade. I’m on AM4 since 2019, very happy didn’t have to change anything except for CPU. And now this….. priceless
@@mimitan where did I say that must be no competition? I’ve always bought what I judged to be a good cost/benefit. It can be any of then, and that’s what happened over the years. I won’t list all CPUs I had in the last 32 years. Just read my comment again and this time pay attention on what my point was.
The worst thing about this whole ordeal is Intel's lack of communication. I figure they'd prioritize their image and prevent a panic with their shareholders. Let this whole thing blow over and then kinda address it with the new generation. Basically the Apple route.
@@jcdentonunatco amd chips use tsmc 5nm who's real transistors are very small compared to intel 10nm. Just check it up on the fabricators website on the architecture and die size.
The more I learn about ho the sausage is actually made, the more impressed I am with what new (midrange) CPUs actually offer for the price. And the more I am impressed about how something like this has not happened before now (or at least I don't recall it happening). One Big Question- Do they not test every CPU to check to see if it's ok before deciding what CPU it will be and then shipping it? Is the pre-sale testing MUCH higher for actual server grade CPUs (Xeons/Epyc)? That would explain part of the much higher retail prices- as server hardware needs to be very reliable. I am a bit dismayed that Intel did not detect this issue much earlier.. and do something about it. Maybe the oxidation issue is not something they can easily test for after fabrication... it may take thousands of hours in use to make itself known. So Intel decided to just "wait and see" which CPUs become too unstable to use. Basically making their customer their Q&A team.
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Thanks, Steve. Back to you, Steve. 😊
This is clearly a 2024 T-Shirt moment...
Still think this an over-inflated issue where frequency is still a factor based on older developed (even though new) software parameters causing many of these crashes as the software can't cope with plus 6ghz CPU's just yet effectively (seems like this point is being munted everywhere). We should be sticking it too NVIDIA cont. over fudging this generation of Intel I reckon. Peace! ✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼
Is this strictly 13th gen+ information you're looking for?
I can't disassemble my PC to give these specific CPU markings. Shame there's no where in the software that provides them. But thanks for covering this.
Not knowing whether you're going to have a working CPU in the future and not knowing how the company that sold it to you will be handling the issue is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
This is one of the most insane fk ups on tech ever, and it has been going on since last year with Intel totally quiet in their castle, it is total insanity.
This is what happens when you don’t know wtf you are doing and turn everything to 11 in the mobo…Life lesson, move on, stop crying
@@radugrigoras Bruh. This shit is literally happening to server farms using *very* conservative settings, with boards that don't even support overclocking. You clearly didn't even watch the video, or apparently *any* videos about the issue.
This is happening to processors running OOTB settings. Stop blaming the end user for the fuck up of a multibillion dollar conglomerate. Feel free to delete your comment.@@radugrigoras
You do know. If it's not working now it won't work in the future. Intel won't fix anything I am 99% sure they wont even say anything. 15th gen is too close all they need to do is play the delay game and then everyone will only be talking about 15th gen. Apple tactics tried and tested. Ignore the plebs who try to speak up and throw shiny new toy at them to distract them.
Welcome to the world of tech where no company ever cares about you lol
Oxidized copper on the inside of the CPU? Well that's one way for Intel to go green.
😂
I see what you did there 😆 (those not getting it.. Google oxidised copper to see its colour)
CuO is brick red. Thin layers may take on any color depending on thickness though, like anodised aluminium.
@@hammerth1421you mean Cu2O?
That's an underrated comment for sure.
$5 says AMD was juuuuust about to release pricing for the 9000-series and then they saw this going down - and went "well, wait just a minute now"
That's sad
Intel did it for many years, I remember paying $600 for a single core.
"Hold up, let them cook."
@@prashantmishra9985It's business
Yeah, this is good for AMD of course but not really good for consumers. AMD is still a company after all and you best believe that they see this weakness in Intel as an opportunity to raise prices and gobble up more market share. We need both of them competing and Intel is just failing right now.
I can't imagine that someone who set out to start a UA-cam channel for gamer enthusiasts thought that there would be this much investigative journalism involved.
Well, Steves most early content was based around investigative journalism already.
He never changed, he just sets the goalpost further and further with every year.
@@Waldherz in tech jesus we trust
@@AxleTrade Amen
To be fair, for most channels there isn't as much investigative work done as here This channel is an exception, not the rule.
"youtuber becomes an investigative journalist against their will" is my favorite genre of youtube video
“Some of the examples of instability include…BSODs…”
Oh, so Crowdstrike compiled today’s update on an Intel CPU. Got it.
oooooooof
LMAO
Ouch!
Hahahahahaha.
😂😂😂
I'm so old, I remember when "Intel Inside" was a fun jingle, not a death threat.
Now I'm worried about the future of cybernetics. Imagin if you had some implant inside you and then news breaks about it having a defect.
Intel Inside and the "made for" Nvidia thing were still around up to roughly 2010. Games used to show those before you reached the main menu. Don't have to be that old.
@@EximiusDux Pointless correction. You just had to sneak that "well actually" in there didn't you?
@@angrysocialjusticewarrior Funny attempt. Praise your nickname and avatar.
@@EximiusDuxI'd say that 14 years is a lot
Thanks Steve
Damn. I should have put one of those in this video. Big mistake.
Missed opportunity.
You can put that in the video, that'll be talking about the actual reason all those CPUs were failing.
@@GamersNexus Back to you Steve!
Thanks Steve
One of my more technical inclined friends almost went nuts trying to pin down the issue with his 13900k. The crashes he was experiencing were so sporatic. Turns out one of his cores had died and once he disabled it, the crashes stopped.
Here the same ...always watchdog timeout bsod ...generic error i have replaced all the other pieces ...but didn't work anything ...the only solution was to diasable turbo boost 3 so having the i9 13900k at basic clock without the boost to 5ghz...blocked at 3ghz...i had to buy another one cause at the time there was non of this news as today
My chip is 13600KF and I frequently meet with Blue Screen issue: "KERNEL_SECURITY_CHECK_FAILURE". Is this problem the reason???
@@user-lp4uc6xm6d Hm, I can't say for certain, but I wonder if what you're running into is a newer feature Windows called Core Isolation. If you're experiencing that message again and again, hit Start and search for "Core Isolation" no quotes. You can try disabling memory protection, just be aware that you're technically making the machine less secure than it would be with core isolation.
@@user-lp4uc6xm6d Bad microcode.
SAMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEE
Can’t wait for the UserBenchmark spin on this.
“Intel cpus are too powerful not even god can contain their strength”
Yes, the 9800x3d does outperform the 14900k significantly but you should still buy intel because the amd shills and youtube army are secretly sabotaging intel! We will bring this to light shortly! Signed - CPU Master
Framechasers blaming users for the oxidation...
Do not repeat forbidden web site name on internet.
“AMD Neanderthals™️ have clearly working behind the scenes to infiltrate Intel’s manufacturing facilities and sabotage production when they saw no other way to best Intel. Despite these very isolated and unconfirmed cases Intel still has the best performing CPU’s on the market for both gaming and production no matter what the AMD paid media tells you”
@@GameBacardiits acceptable to name them in a Diss track
Intel's GPU department feels like a whole different company at this point.
Let's hope so!
Hope so
@@IntelArcTesting heyyyy wait a minute...
We need Intel GPU's to stay alive 😭
Kinda the same thing with AMD 😅
As someone who has a 13700K and is experiencing several crashes per day I thank you for being relentless to get answers for this. You guys are heroes!
What kind of crashes? Any info would help!
@@GamersNexus I got intel to do a RMA/rebuy request 7 months ago. I experienced some of the weirdest behavior ever in a PC. I could not install Nvidia drivers. I would get a 7zip error. Trying to clean install windows would result in a BSOD 9 out of 10 times. When Windows was installed, there were missing Windows components and device manager would not open. UE5 games would give the out of vram error and crash. Programs like firefox would just randomly crash/close with no error message or anything. If you are looking for a way to detect this, the intel diagnostic tool will report math fail. That is what helped me narrow down that it was the CPU that was the problem.
hopefully intel helps you out with a replacement or something that’s ridiculous. what mobo do u run ? have you OCed in the past ?
@@GamersNexus Not OP, but as another 13700K owner (on ASUS Z690-P, 64GB of Corsair Vengeance 5200MHz C40 RAM, 2 Crucial P3 1To, ASUS TUF 3080Ti OC Edition & RM850x for PSU). My use cases were mostly playing retro to modern games, drawing and animating on Clip Studio Paint Ex and streaming through OBS alongside a 3D virtual puppeteering app (Warudo) + Emulation and recording at the same time, which can be very CPU (& GPU) intensive tasks.
Would fill the survey, but I unfortunately can't check the few numbers to identify the CPU as this would require me to open up the computer and I need it ready for any work.
I've had multiple issues and BSODs that happened roughly a year and a half after I had bought my system, around May 2024 (bought the system in December 2022, system was in actual use since January 2023).
Black square artifacting on sites like UA-cam (especially with Cinema mode on), out of memory errors, BSOD and crashes during high CPU usage like streaming or games. There was also nvlddmkm errors which were making me think it was more of an NVidia error during that time, but was NOT the GPU as it worked fine on another machine AND those still happened with a 1080Ti instead.
This is just a suspicion, but I think one of my RAM modules also is now malfunctioning because of those errors (and forced me to format my boot drive completely as it BSOD'd during the Windows reinstall process), and I'm in the process of RMAing it for a new pair. The module was thoroughly tested through MemTest86 and shows that it is indeed malfunctioning, but worked completely fine before those crashes started happening. This is only speculation from my own side however, so take that with a rock of salt.
The reason why I'm thinking this might be linked though, is while the errors have been less frequent after removing the faulty module, the errors never stopped, and only became less frequent AFTER setting the "Pls respect my power limits" setting in the BIOS... And even then there are still Out of memory/nvlddmkm crashes/BSOD happening once every month or two. It's much more rare, but still happening from time to time.
Hopefully this can help in finding out the problems Intel has. Will answer more questions if needed!
@@GamersNexus If it helps, my 13700KF could be made to crash with ASUS's default "AI OC" settings 100% of the time by just trying to run a full Cinebench loop. I am pretty sure this was not happening out of the box and started happening maybe a year in. I got it to stability by lowering the clocks and power limits. When the patches came out it was able to stay stable with a 53x mutiplier, but the thermals were surprisingly bad. As in, suddenly seeming like I may have messed up setting up my AIO for some reason (and yes, I peeled the sticker, I checked). I manually lowered my clocks and power limits again as a result, to maybe a 10% performance cost, but I'm back to being stable AND reasonable temperatures, for now.
This thing was purchased in November 2022. Given my thermal issues and the fact that I do need this dumb thing for work I'd rather not mess with it to check the number on the lid, though.
This is such a bummer, because now I not only have to worry about whether Intel will do anything about this and whether my CPU will continue to degrade over time, but also have to make a decision between rolling the dice and reward them for their mess up by getting a drop-in replacement or having to pay extra for their failure by also spending several hundred dollars more to move to an AMD platform. In the 2000s I wouldn't have cared much because 60 bucks would get you a decent motherboard, but these things are so expensive now.
My main thought here is how Intel is even going to resolve this. No matter WHAT the culprit/root cause is, there is no easy or especially cheap way Intel can remediate this.
If they push "fixes" that lower frequency, memory support, or essentially anything that changes the advertised design specs, it's an extreme case of false advertising for any customer who purchased the chips prior to the change (not to mention it further lengthens the gap of AMD's leads).
You can't buy a V8 car with 500hp, that has global issues with misfiring suddenly, and the "fix" is to deactivate two cylinders. Thus making it functionally a v6 with significantly less power. It doesn't work that way. People paid for a product as advertised, and may have made a different choice if the product had these different specifications. This is not a viable solution, and would not only tarnish their reputation further, but would be a massive legal issue.
The only ACTUAL option they have (again no matter what the culprit actually is), assuming they can't push a "fix" that does not alter advertised specs, is a recall.
This would be extremely costly as this issue seems to have permeated all matkets across many product lines, over a lengthy but unknown amount of time. Recalling all these CPUs would cost them an insane amount of money, and would also still tarnish their reputation significantly even if done as efficiently as possible. This assumes that the culprit is something that _can_ be resolved (aka manufacturing issue, rather than inherent design flaw).
Their only true hope here to resolving this issue is that they can release a "fix" via microcode update or otherwise to customers that in no way alters the advertised design specifications/performance of their processors. Their reputation will still take a hit, but it will be the only viable "cheap" way they can pull themselves out of this situation. I suspect their silence is because they are running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to find a way to do just that to avoid the significantly more costly outcomes.
While I have personally found Intel to be a completely illogical choice compared to AMD since at least AM5 release, and find no redeeming qualities of current Intel CPUs; as a consumer, I sincerely hope they get their act together and can resolve this properly and compete properly again. Otherwise if AMD continues its dominance, we will eventually see a reverse of the prior times in history where Intel was in such a position with minimal competiton. This was a time when the CPU market/prices prices were like the current GPU market/prices and the top Intel CPUs were like £1k.
very true. i hope it doesnt come to that. the cpu market has been in a very good (consumer friendly) state for the last 5 years
The most incomprehensible thing to me is that throughout the roughly six months that this has been a known issue, Intel has kept selling these CPUs, thereby worsening the problem by increasing the number of people affected. Regarding AMD's continued dominance, Microsoft is trying to decrease that by making an operating system so horrible that people are being driven toward Apple.
@@nomore6167apple isn't great either no ppl are going to useing Linux
I smell a class action suit in the making.
@@gradystephenson3346 "apple isn't great either no ppl are going to useing Linux" - I agree that Apple isn't great, but they have tricked the general public into believing that they are and that their products are easy to use. As for people switching to Linux, I agree that power users will likely switch to Linux, but I don't foresee the general public switching to Linux. Linux has too little support and too little uniformity. People want a product they can bring to a repair shop if something goes wrong. That isn't Linux, unfortunately.
So I'm not in the industry but did years of grad school work with atomic layer deposition (ALD.) I've not personally worked on plasma-enhanced ALD (PEALD) but you really shouldn't have any oxygen anywhere between the metal-organic or metal-halide tantalum precursor and whatever they use for the nitrogen, which I'd be surprised if it's anything other than ammonia or an N2 plasma. The whole damascene process used for copper interconnects is very old and well studied so they'd have to really screw up their process flow, although ALD hasn't always been used but it's just great because of being able to cover high aspect ratio structures.
It's important to realize too that copper can't touch the silicon directly or it will diffuse into it and form deep-level traps that will absolutely ruin your performance. You instead rely on some other thin metallization steps and form silicides with those metals to tune your metal-semiconductor junction and the Schottky barrier height. You can look up the Schottky-Mott rule for more on that. In short though any of that stuff would have been caught well before production, so I doubt ALD and the various process steps for those interconnects are to blame. It would be interesting to see if there are different results from these CPUs depending on if they were manufactured in Hillsboro, OR or Chandler, AZ however.
If oxidation is a problem it's definitely a very embarrassing issue considering how hard that would be to have happen. My worry would be it's a defect on one or more lithography masks if that's the case but for it to show up so slowly is just odd considering how hard of a diffusion path it would have. In any case I'm a couple decades removed from the field but if I can help as a sanity check or someone to confirm somewhat basic technical details feel free to hit me up.
Also I really don't envy the FA guys you hired because it will be a literal needle in a billion haystacks if it's not one of the giant interconnects. People seem to think it might be related to the ring interconnect as that was a major change from 12th to 13th gen so they may be able to find something without sinking way too much time into it.
As a random guy with zero industry experience, I do want to bring your attention to FogBank. Which is a required material for nuclear weapons. From what I understand, it took an entire research project to figure out why new stuff wasn't working. It turned out the original formula only worked because some impurities, and the newer process used higher purity materials. Which goes to show that even nuclear weapons can be affected by impurities of feedstock.
Yes...uhumm...indeed
I understand some of these words 🤔
Hugely appreciate you taking the time for a technical analysis with some depth to it. Thanks for chiming in!
dope ass response, hope steve sees this
*ouch*
and i understood most of what you said, as a long time software dev a couple years out of the industry.
Intel: We have no Intel
The virgin exploding amd vs the chud corroding intel
bravo six going dark
Mission failed, we'll get 'em next time...
What Intel? It's not even inside!
Also Intel: We are still learning how to make CPUs.
1st week: somebody sneezed in the CPU factory
this week: are they partying in the CPU factory?
Just saying... Linus was in the factory that manufacture those CPUs.
coincidence?
@@1Lunex1 trust me bro
@@redheads604 WDYM by 'trust me bro' he uploaded couple of videos from that tour in Israel.
@@1Lunex1 Damn it Linus! What did you mess up during your factory tour?
@@cemsengul16 He must've dropped something
So its interesting you say that. I work for a large government organization. I am always skeptical of BSODs in enterprise environments as they install all sorts of heavy SEIM and productivity suites on their machines. Midway through last year, our government program saw an elevated rate of GFE (laptop) BSODs that has plagued new team members regularly. Often, GFE reimages do not resolve the issue. Again, the I'd say about 20% of new team member's GFEs are affected. Virtually all the GFE's are $7000+ Dell enterprise Intel laptops. I'll try to find what processors they are using. I know this is only focusing on desktop processors, but I'm starting to wonder if this affects mobile cpu skus as well.
wow this is a whole new level! make sure to keep everyone updated if you can!
Dell and Intel, a match made in hell. Toss McAfee into the partnership and you'll have the triumvirate of the apocalypse
Damn
This comment needs to be way higher.
If it's a Precision series laptop those are gonna be 13th gen H series which would be affected. Most of the 7xxx uses H series I believe...
I have a 10900K and nearly upgraded it, my housemate has a 13700K and it's his second. The first one became temperamental and there were lots of unexplained system crashes while gaming. He like anyone else did not suspect the CPU and we benched swaps of all other likely components to cause the issue and it was not resolved. He RMA'd his 13700K and Intel reported that it was faulty and sent him a new one, the new CPU ran fine for a few weeks but the crashing has begun to return.
This new information has been a real eye opener!
Same here i have a i7 12700K and almost upgraded it to the 14th gen, thank god i didn’t. when i build my new rig ill use a amd cpu. But honestly intel hasn’t been bad at all tbh
Yeah because it's never the CPU! That's the most reliable part of the system... or so I thought. There have been CPU recalls in the past, but it's been a long time. Most CPUs over the years have been extremely reliable even if you did overclock them a lot.
Make him disable e-cores. Easy fix.
@@Underground.Rabbit So you didn't watch the video
@@Underground.RabbitWhy make comments on a video you haven't watched?
Wow - Steve coughing up close to 5 figures for FA analysis for a couple of failed chips is a big investment for your channel. It speaks to your dedication to providing the best and most accurate information you can *afford* to obtain to help inform your audience. Kudos to you for being willing to spend some money to get real independent data to inform your audience.
This would probably be the third time I could think of them going to failure analysis labs
GN takes journalism very seriously. This ain't LTT where they throw thousands of dollars at watercooling toilet seats for likes and subs. GN spends their money on investigative reporting to force the industry to do better and be better.
Just a non zero shameless plug to buy something in the store to support GN, disappointment T-shirt maybe?
failure analysis analysis?
Merch is profit. LTT made $16mill cdn gross just from screwdrivers so far.
i love how alot of other hw news outlets just said "100% failure rate on all intel cpus" instead of the correct version "100% of failures at some server providers are intel cpus"
Exactly that kind of lying, misleading titles, is one of the reasons, the current culture world is going down the drain politically. Everything is black and white now, everything is ultra exaggerated and blown out of proportions.
I also blame youtube and its algorithm, for teaching millions of people that exaggerated or misleading titles, "are good" and worse, making them necessary.
Still, having a CPU failure in a server environment is a verr very rare thing...if you have some servers and all intel ones do fail that's basically the last time you bought intel CPUs.
It's because Alderon Games (maker of Path of Titans) said: "Over the last 3-4 months, we have observed that CPUs initially working well deteriorate over time, eventually failing. The failure rate we have observed from our own testing is nearly 100%, indicating it's only a matter of time before affected CPUs fail."
This seems like a direct accusation of 100% failure rate on all 13th and 14th gen intel cpus to me, and what the media would report on.
@@KingOfBritains to be fair. They do have observed a 100% failure rate in a server environment (no oc, conservative voltages and memory speeds, excessive cooling, everything build according to HCL ) even a failure rate of 5% would be unheard of.
@@Argoon1981 Are you under impression that people didn't write misleading headlines or think in a black and white way in the past?
if this is a manufacturing defect, this is extremely concerning for the reputation of Intel foundries
Man I'd really hope this does not tank Intel foundries too much. We're in need of an alternative to those aliens at TSMC, not because I don't like them but because that particular corner of the world has the heat cranked up and I don't really know how long it will be until it starts boiling
Thank you for being one of the few companies left who actually care about the consumer. Keep up the pressure
"I'm sorry guys I don't know if I can spend another 100, 200, 300, 500 dollars of various people's times to do my job properly"
-Linus
@@Blade_of_Tomoe 😆😂🤣
@@Blade_of_TomoeI remember this and thus am not subscribed to LTT anymore.
@@Blade_of_Tomoe Linus Tech Shills
Thank you for the donation and support!
Intel, REALLY does not want this to be a fabrication issue. That opens up a ton of bad optics issues for them.
A fabrication issue with the chips is basically a worst case scenario for Intel. It means there are no actual fixes for the chips currently in circulation and even things like lower power limits and clocks will just be temporary solutions.
@CNTRI715 yeah I could not think of anything much worse.
Maybe the engineer shitted the bed with the 13th-14th series to match AMD’s release date
@@CNTRI715 It would sound almost like a strategically-placed fabricated rumor right before the Zen 5 launch
@@CNTRI715it being a fabrication issue only means there is no fix. But doesn't necessarily mean limiting the CPU's is a temporary solution. They might be just fine or have not nearly as bad of an issue as what you mentioned.
Again, ofc It could be what you said, but not necessarily.
Ekwb is so happy asus and intel messed up so bad that people forgot about them.
What did assus do again
Obligatory Pepperidge Farms quote.
@@pj2jGz354XTReAB Shady RMA business. Mostly affects Asus RMA "Partners" in USA it seems.
Funny you mention EKWB. I was repasting my shit just last night and wondered "hey, wtf happened to that drama". I still don't know.
@@mattmanyam Obligatory response to Pepperidge Farms quote.
PC users are at the moment, where they can't be sure their (usually expensive) Intel CPUs are stable at _default_ settings... it's insane.
The DEFAULT (not sure why we're shouting) settings are the issue. How to fix? Frame Chasers 7/14/24 - problem solved (it's the two boost cores)
@@camplethargic8 I wasn't meaning to 'shout', maybe I should use underscoring. :)
That said, this shouldn't happen to the customers, who inherently trust the judgment of the CPU engineers' - that the top CPU they're (customers) buying is going to be stable with sufficient cooling solution for years to come.
@@mikoldeon I agree. That said, if you bought an i9 and it isn't yet deteriorated, Frame Chasers July 14 offers a fix.
@@camplethargic8 Which is a good thing - any solution at this point which helps to remediate that, is welcome!
I'm using (a bit outdated at this point) X299 platform, but it's rock stable since late 2018 (when I bought it), so I believe Intel can find a solution to fix it. :)
Not true. My AMD CPU is a generation old and has never had any warnings or errors
Can we all agree on how lucky we are that there are small organizations out there like GN that are still consumer focused? And that they can survive on the smallest of support like simply buying a nice T-shirt or a kick-ass work mat... I will be putting in a order shortly boys, and I can honestly say it doesn't feel like enough in exchange of all the great info you have brought to light these many months...Keep up the great work and we'll keep watching.
Ahmen
Steve: Intel needs to say something.
Intel: Thanks Steve.
Back to you, Steve.
not hitting advertised speeds reliably .... EU and Australia starting to rub the hands at a EASY W with this one ... they HATE this kind of shiz
I'm curious as to know why that is? Could you explain why EU and AUS does that? Thank you.
@@ze-ph9774 Strong consumer protection laws, if a part, ANY part doesn't perform as advertised, then oh boy...
@@benjaminsmekens2344 ahh gotcha. that makes sense. Thank you.
@@ze-ph9774 for context AU - "Australia" would likely impose a fine 7 figures and up and require Intel / OEM's to honor out of date warranty's at the cost to the buisness not the customer to return or refund said items . the cost of the later part of this statement FAR out weighs the fine in Logisitics costs alone .
The general concensus being STAY TF OUT of AU / EU commerce courts as it gets WILDY expensive and very damamging to public appeal / stock price ...
@@ze-ph9774Cause both the EU and Australia actually have consumer protection laws which are enforced.
The potential impact on the tech industry and Intel's reputation could be significant. Maintaining transparency and speedily addressing these issues should be Intel's top priority.
If you see someone filled out your survey twice, I'm the dumbass who bought a second one.
F
Do they both do BSOD?
Thank you for taking the time to do both! Did you really have two failures?! Crazy luck.
@@GamersNexus Interestingly I see a lot of reports of people who report multiple failures, with the replacement often dying quite quickly.
@@PineyJustice The concerning part about that is that Intel seems to be unable to detect the issue beforehand and has not yet fixed it for newer units, leading to replacements with the same problems.
Intel became the Boeing of CPU's.
blue and white logo that constantly crashes. Makes sense
The Deep Web Telescope people must be biting their nails off now.
Does boeing's space ship have intel inside?
Frame Chasers 7/14/24 - problem solved (it's the two boost cores)
Using 13900K running its stock clocks with 7200mhz Memory, running just fine, so far haven't encountered any kinds of crashes or funny stuff.
To even consider investing 5 figure per CPU amount, to confirm something that should be Intel's resposibility to confirm, just tells you how much integrity GN staff has.
Oh it definitely is Intel's responsibility to confirm. But the big difference is that GN will go public with their findings, while Intel will sweep it under the rug.
Sure is. That's 5 figures per CPU, with a 50% chance of the results being 'inconclusive'.
I don't think it's about integrity. It's interesting to a lot of people so GN wants to be able to break the results, which Intel most certainly won't publish in full, if at all. Despite the looks, Steve is not Tech Jesus. It is, however, excellent that he's built a channel that can afford to do this and is willing to invest the money to get it done. It's a long play - the video with the results will likely not recoup the cost of doing it, especially when there's a chance the results won't be conclusive. It *is* notable that much larger YT media like LTT aren't doing it, while GN is, and despite my distaste for Steve's navel-gazing and self-on-back-patting, we're all better off because GN exists.
@@jeffb.6642 Lawyers will find it during discovery, if such internal evidence exists. And this type of failure screems for a class action lawsuit if Intel won't compensate affected users and OEMs adequatly.
Frame Chasers 7/14/24 - problem solved (it's the two boost cores)
I'm on my second i9-13900K after the first one degraded rapidly. Heading to the survey rn. Thank you so much GN ❤
I totally don’t regret buying a 14900k over a 7800x3D. Nope not at all. Totally not coping right now. I’m VERY happy with my purchase
:(
Gutted for you bro, i built my first pc in January with the 7800x3d and it's been an amazing experience.
I'm sorry man, I hope intel looks after you. I've definitely been a supporter of AMD recently because I think they've made better products but I'm extremely disappointed in how intel is treating their customers. I hope the baseline profile keeps you from having issues man :(
I'm sure someone will take it off your hands for...let's say $3.50?
Honestly feel bad for 13900K and 14900K owners. The amount of bad news lately... hope it doesn't turn into one big pile of e-waste.
Have you had any problems with yours?
"We cannot comfortably reccomend intel CPUs at this point" Steve @GN delivering one of the most devastating blows to one of the biggest players in the industry I have ever seen.
This is so true. Especially in enterprise environments Intel was akin to "no one ever got fired for buying IBM".
So many shops running Intel only...
@@raskalthefirst There is (was) a good reason for that: Intel was leagues ahead in terms of integration testing and stability (AMD has always had weird sh-t happen, especially at chipset level - the last time they were rock solid was with the God-tier Opterons). Also, Intel have always had much better IPC and latency for uarch-targeted workloads (ie when you use builds tuned for a uarch). Steve and his denunciation doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since enterprise is the market Intel cares about. What matters is that massive players are seeing failures. And they're not fail-closed failures where the box dies - that could still be somewhat tenable - it's a failure mode where the CPU continues to appear to work and garbles data. There is currently *no* protection in DBMSes against this - it is assumed that CPUs will not garble data and ECC protects it in RAM - whatever checksum/other consistency methods are employed, they're for secondary storage. Having a large number of CPUs fail like this with no way to detect what they've garbled and for how long before anyone noticed is beyond catastrophic. And for the first time in two decades, CIOs who kept mainframes or Nonstops get to justifiably larf at people with COTS boxen ;)
SELL SELL SELL SELL AAAHHH
My 14900KS has given me ZERO issues. It's a CPU meant for hardcore enthusiasts who know how to navigate the BIOS without the need for a mouse. We don't leave our silicon at the mercy of some random "AI Overclocking tool"
Frame Chasers 7/14/24 - problem solved (it's the two boost cores)
funny how Intel made a jab at amd some time ago that they used a "glued-together" solution. How about now Intel, how's the taste of that oxidation
A glued-together solution that works vs an oxidizing solution that doesn't😂
Its funny considering Intel has done the "glued together" method many times - Q6600, Pentium D, early i series processors (Socket 1156) had a separate north bridge on the chip etc.
They are going backwards, like they think Sandy Bridge and Alder Lake are a mistake.
Companies dont have taste buds lol
@@zemzela directors managing them and employees working for them, do
I remember my 2500K going strong for years and years even on OC
How the mighty have fallen
my 8086k been on 5.3ghz from launch day. I don't understand how Intel fell this hard...
I have a pair of E5-2470 v2's in a server that has been running 24/7 for years with 100% uptime.
mine 4790k was running 4,8ghz daily, never had a single problem with it. good ol' days
_Glances over at PC with a 13600KF_
_Staring intensifies_
Did you face any issues?
Are there any reported issues with the 13600KF? My local store has a really good deal on them, and I'm not sure if I should pick one up or not.
The i5 K CPUs seem to be doing fine, it's just the i7 and i9 K CPUs shitting their pants right now (although that could change with more time and investigation).
Think you're safe, i7s and i9s k-ks are at risk. I dodged the bullet with 12700KF & 12900KF. Believe I'm gaming more stably with the e cores off, less crashing. The P cores are really good, not that I can compare it to Ryzen this gen, just other Intels.
i have a 13700K with ram at 6400 and it runs totally fine. maybe it's a lucky chip. it is undervolted by 0.1v though.
Lowering performance to avoid the issue is unacceptable. All that means is that they've discovered that they can push broken CPUs past the warranty period.
Just imagine to fork out lots of money for a high end CPU, only to be forced to downgrade that CPU to the performance of a much cheaper CPU. I would not feel happy about that. On top of that, there is always a possibility that those measures will only delay the failures and the downgraded CPU will fail at a later point anyway. I guess that would make you not feel comfortable...
@@jclosed2516 this feels like telling someone with a cracked engine block to just drive a bit slower and everything will be fine
I wonder about the legality of something like this. Less so in the US but especially in the EU.
@@nichfra Honestly, in EU (or at least Poland) I've experienced far less obvious cases of manufacturer's fault and still have been refunded. You just need to know your rights. We have a public consumer's protection office and you can call them for advice on what to do. I have one story where our garage door failed to open and the company that did the job, not only had to fix the door, but paid for, and installed a new window, because we had to break one to get in. If we didn't call the office we wouldn't even know we could do that.
@@Dommifax Car guy metaphor, can relate
I actually work in IT for a relatively large German investment company and you can't imagine how relieved I am that we managed to get around all the recent issues of the last two weeks... Crowdstrike was offered to us on the phone just a few weeks ago and we didn't order the new Intel stuff because it was too costly and not really necessary.
Our... buisness ventures include mostly supermarkets and Kindergardens, we specialize in "critical infrastructure", so that would have been BAD.
But you use server CPUs in critical infrastructure, right? Right? :)
Liar.
@@Nekudza LOL.
But you do run windows I'm sure...
@@Nekudza nah, 7800X3D all the way
I have one of these processors in the list on a just over 1 year build. It has been randomly freezing up on boot sometimes but recovers after a minute or two. I have tried testing ram, SSD and power supply but the issue continues. It makes me think it might be the processor now that is the issue. Thanks for you guys work trying to hold these large companies accountable!
I just built a new rig three weeks ago, and I was going back and forth between a 7800X3D and a 14th gen i7. Ended up going with the 7800X3D due to the good reviews. If I had went with the i7 Id be absolutely furious. I wouldn't even be able to enjoy my PC, even if it was working, cause I'd always be scared it'll die at any minute.
Shame on Intel for their silence. I know they have to protect themselves but man... you gotta say something. Anything.
You narrowly avoided a disaster there.
@@CyrusChennaultintel sadly has overwhelming market share
Probably less about hiding it and not wanting to make a wrong claim about their own issue.
@@CyrusChennaultBro what? AMD has a larger market cap than Intel btw, so not sure about monopoly lol.
@@DreadyBearBoi Yea, Im sure its all liability/legal related. But still... you cant be totally silent.
13700k owner here. Thank you for looking into this, I've had some super weird crashes along with devices randomly connecting and disconnecting. Driving me crazy.
So sorry to hear.. I was thinking of upgrading from my 12600kf to a 14700k... Now.. hell no and Ill go AMD 100%
Although I think I may have dodged a bullet with the 12600kf
Same here... Been stable up until 2 months ago and all of a sudden my microphone randomly dissapearing from connected devices even though it worked fine before and is less then 6month old. Getting BSOD after windows 11 updates, random VRAM issues... Money down the drain
i would lock pl1 to 125 and pl2 to 253, if this doesnt solve it, rma it
Insane how bad this is
Remember when IBM had a 20% failure rate on HDDs (DeskStar), they had to sell that part of the company off and leave the market.
the deathstars were somethin else, completely destroyed IBMs storage department. i think they sold to toshiba? i cant remember well
@@isellfreemoney9899Hitachi, and ironically Hitachi fixed the problems and eventually had an extremely good line of drives out of the deal. To this day, I still run Hitachi drives descended from Deskstar. Western Digital now owns that line of drives and they are excellent. My home NAS is 30TB of those drives. IBM giving up and selling to someone who could fix it was a great move in the end.
Since it took this long to even spot and being able to talk about the issue, I don't think intel is going anywhere. It seems alot of people and companies will keep buying their CPUs, regardless of model and accompanied issues, severity be damned.
@@isellfreemoney9899pretty sure it was Hitachi.
lol oh shit! omg, talk about problem from the past, and not only did it almost tank IBM, and effectively perminatly screw up how people thought about the company, but they've been basically just back end since
i'm so glad I had instability with both the 13900k and 14900k i bought right out of the box, sent them back and got a 7950X3d. Couldn't be happier.
Whatever the issue is, it's NOT simply a power issue. I "fixed" my PC several times by adjusting power settings and EVERY TIME it became unstable again after a month or so. There is clearly a physical issue causing degrading stability.
Same here. 13700K replaced by Intel a few weeks ago. October 2023 purchase. Stock clocks and power settings. Months stable and then...multiple tweaks over months, each instability came more frequent in time the the prev tweak. Whatever went bad was getting worse. Lowering clocks and adding a little volts were typical tweaks.
It is a power issue, specifically a voltage issue. But you don't reverse degradation, it only ever gets worse with time. It will cause the chip to require more and more voltage which then causes the degradation to accelerate even faster.
If you want to stop it you need to cap your clocks and keep the chip very cool with the lowest voltage it can possibly run, even then if its badly enough degraded it may be too late. Reducing ring speed will help as well.
@@normanblack4005 That is exactly what caused it to get worse. You need to drop the voltage not raise it.
@@JathraDH Okay so ~1.3v is/was too much and degraded my CPU. Got it.
At install I was undervolted 0.05 and was under 1.3 at load (e.g. x264). Anyway as I lowered clocks the voltage of course is lowered (dynamic VID), and my net voltage was getting lower than initial at full/stock 5.3 clock. The V/F curve is pretty steep at the high end.
What were my tweaks doing. Capping clocks and running the lowest voltage the CPU could possibly run on. Your words.
My voltage increases were like 0.01, 0.02 steps. Clocks were 200Mhz changes.
@@normanblack4005 Yea the issue is 1.3v is fine but the 1.5v it shoves through the vcore and ring when its 2 special cores are boosting to 5.8+ and the chip is seeing a temp heat spike on those cores is not fine.
Lowering power caps doesn't fix this because when only those 1-2 cores are boosting the chip is drawing well under its power limit.
If you shut down the super turbo boost all together then I have no idea, perhaps everything I have been hearing is wrong. My 13900K is still running 100% fine after 1.5 years but its been on a very overbuilt custom loop.
To be honest I wont be even considering Intel 13th, 14th and 15th generation - at this point it doesn't even matter what's the real issue, their lack of communication made me lose all trust I had in them, why would I expect that 15th gen wouldn't start dying year after release?
And for people that had issues with stability: Check your local consumer protection laws, you may be able to return these faulty CPUs for full price. For example I managed to return friends CPU on basis that Intel tried fix this issue once (BIOS update) and the issue still persist.
Ya... Like literally how could someone trust intel for stability anymore?
Just refund asus motherboard which is cooking cpu without any power limit
I'm feeling so smug about my build from 6 months ago, I swerved Intel for the first time in my computer life because they're on the Izraeli boycott list
How is that?
If they don't have a single root cause or solution yet, what more can they say beyond RMA problem CPUs?
15th Gen is run on a different process and TSMC. Totally unrelated.
Asianometry should do an episode on this kind of CPU manufacturing issue, it’s right up their alley.
Yep! Although, I think he'd probably do it when everything is clear. He's not one to kind of speculate on these things, I think. Upcoming techniques for sure, but not really for current problems right?
@@ToTheGAMESExactly! 💯
@asianometry Yeah definitely right up their alley, especially with analyzing the effect of corrosion on the cpu due.
As someone who is 100% affected by this it is becoming incredibly frustrating knowing that they know there’s an issue with no response. Currently have a ticket open with intel as the retailers basically refused to help. I wish it was just instability but it appears to be straight up dead
Same for me, especially as the warranty window keeps creeping closer and closer....
@@wyredcan you use warranty and contact Intel to replace it with a new 14900k or refund?
Damn, i seriously hadnt thought about anything related to intel with the ryzen launch... this is really bad for them if they dont say a word because odds are you wont be the only one saying intel cannot be recommended. Thanks for all you do with your thorough investigation and research cause thats one of the things i love about this channel besides the benchmarks you do!
The question I have is AMD going to raise the price of its new CPUs because Intel fumbled the ball?
@@theshadowoftruth7561dont think so, heck we even have gaming studios that openly said, they will switch to amd cpu's for their servers. This is THE chance for amd to claim a huge part of market share
I seriously doubt it because that would be REALLY bad PR taking advantage of the customer when your rival fumbles
@@theshadowoftruth7561That would be one approach… but a better one might actually be a slight decrease in price! It wouldn’t pay off straight away, of course, but if it turns them into longer term AMD customers, it would be worth it
Yeah if amd is smart they'll take the hit of a lower launch price to bring more people into the ecosystem with all the negative intel news.
Absolutely nuts that Intel hasn't said anything.
They are preparing the "how to shift the blame" for this one like usual.
Not really of you think about it logically. They have 2 entire gens that are absolute failures and have some very deep problems probably related to something that happens in the fabs. This is a collosal f-up and their PR people are pissing blood right now trying to figure out how to spin this
I want a classic UA-cam apology from Gelsinger in a lonely room and reddish eyes from crying.
Not really, anything they say can be brought to court later on.
Have you guys heard anything about how this may affect mobile processors?
Idk but I know someone whose 13900hx is failing in a similar fashion right now
Wendell was pretty clear on the fact that the mobile processors based on desktop parts (renamed/lower TDP) were likely affected at a lower rate. He also insinuated that some of the data supported potential 12th gen issues.
If this spreads to laptops Intel is utterly HUMPED...
Don't have any info on if it 100% does affect mobile CPU's BUT from personal experience I have been encountering similar random BSOD's (no not crowdstrike) on my personal laptop with a 13700H. I have also seen an article which did mention that there is a possibility that mobile CPU's are having elevated levels of failures than normal for 13/14th gen Intel chips.
@@NadeemAhmed-nv2bri9-13900HX has the same die as the desktop version, same specs. I guess the failure rate is so low because it's voltage optimized for laptop use.
Many of those i9s don't have an IHS and have liquid metal.
Incredibly concerning that Intel hasn't dealt with this yet. They've shipped and sold tens of millions of defective products to both consumers and business partners.
My friend helped me build a PC last year, truth be told we were the blind leading the blind neither of us knew a thing and I'm barely learning still. I was tempted to get a new Intel chip but my buddy's experience was with AMD so I decided to start there. I think I owe him a beer, now.
lets be real 99 times out of 100 AMD has 10x more problems than intel. This is just extremely unlucky for intel, I still would not touch anything AMD on those odds.
@@Paul11 It's not unlucky, nothing to do with luck, everything to do with company culture for Intel. Gonna need some serious source on that 99 out of a 100 nonsense if you choose to write that on this channel particularly.
@@Paul11 9999/10000 Intel has SEVEN QUADRILLION more problems than AMD.
See, I can also just make stuff up
@@BurningBroadcasthe’s either just coping with his intel CPU purchase or hasn’t looked at amd’s cpus in over a decade.
@@Paul11 Intel shill spotted
I don't think its OEMs experiencing the problems sooner.
Its that the problem's symptoms are so common that people apply it to other things.
Current gaming industry makes half baked, half stable games that keep crashing on daily basis.
By adding another crashing cause you wont see the difference until you look at statistics.
So a good example is a youtuber named Splitsie. He had games crashing constantly during his streams, and he blamed the games.
But after Wnedel's video, I asked him, does he have an intel 13 or 14 gen cpu, and he said "oh yeah, I do, I read the articles but never connected the dots".
So the problem is affecting more people, they just don't think its a CPU problem, but distribute blame between the games they play.
It manifested on me in the form of access violations getting caught by my debugger when working on a professional UE5 game. For a day or two I actually thought I had introduced some weird bug into the code until I realized it was sporadic and unrelated to any changes I made.
It can be devious to track down.
I thought it was a GPU problem, then a PSU problem, then a RAM problem until I saw Wendel's video.
So if I understand this correctly corporate customers get affected chips replaced free of charge, retail customers get to pay full price and have their systems crippled to "SOLVE" the problem.
Sounds distressingly familiar.
oh the way steve's talking, they're trying to squirm their way around working with corporate customers as well.
@@dead-claudia Not honoring support agreements... you *may* get it past legal, you will *not* get it past procurement when it comes to the next order.
yeah that's part of their enterprise support agreement lol. intel's liable for their hardware not working. that's why intel charges them tens of thousands of dollars and you get charged a few hundred.
There's no such thing as "affected chip". Every CPU intel ships out is in perfect working order. The problem is in the way the motherboard handles the cpu, what frequency/ temperature/ voltage they target. The "issue" seems to be worsened significantly by some "ai overclocking" setting available on certain motherboards. Essentially they shove a huge load of voltage to the cpus to maintain stability at really high clocks.
Now servers on the other hand, they have it really bad. Companies run houndreds of these systems side by side on a cramped space at unbearable temperatures, just remember how much power a single of this puppies uses under full load. That and the fact that those major companies are running those cpus with the bare basics cpu coolers, they are all about profits, can't afford no direct die custom loop system for every rig....
@@user-wm3fc1sk1p cool story bro, lmao
The issue is real, everyone knows its real, even Intel knows it but they dont want to talk about it. What i think it should be right to do until they face and fix the issue publicly
1. Dont promote any Intel product
2. Dont show any Intel product brand in any video
3. Dont do benchmarks or reviews or use any Intel product
4. State in every video that any Intel CPU is not recommended (until this is fixed)
5. Dont promote anything about upcoming Intel cpus.
Hitting where it hurts...their wallet/earnings.
Agreed! Chinese consumers request official compensation from intel!!!
We found the AMD fanboy.
Imagine buying a Maserati and the manufacturer issues recall, you go to the dealer and they tell you "we gotta patch your car so instead of doing 0-60 in 4 seconds it will need 8 seconds now" then send you on your way. lol
What's the problem ?
8s is still pretty good.
@@WTFWHATaraYou get said Maserati because it does 0-60 in 4 seconds. While you don’t really mind a RAV4’s 0-60 getting nerfed.
@@gqh007 But at least the car is running fine now.
@@WTFWHATarabut you payed for one thing and got another
@@russotusso1695 this is a risk when you buy high end cpu.
Intel i9 keyrings coming soon on Amazon
a waste of sand
@@docwhogrThe last several Intel gens: "First time?"
@@docwhogrNo………a waste of good sand 😊
What’s a keyring? First time hearing this term.
@@ProtossOP
A ring to hold keys together.
So glad this is coming up. I have a 14900k and crashes CONSTANTLY on Maya and after effect with a 360mm AIO with intel base power profile. Driving me literally insane
As a 13900ks owner, I had no issue until I played robocop rogue city. I got 3 random crashes over 6 hours of gaming. not the ue5 out of vram, but dx3d device hung. The only instability I have had that was "consistent." The end result was due to all these warnings of degradation, i installed the newest bios and lost 7% benchmark performance. Seeing as i paid like an extra 180 for a KS chip..... I want some sort of compensation, even if my chip does not die. I am using a z790 Pro Art from asus with 7200 ram. To be clear, my cinebench score was about 4.5 percent lower than the average K score, effectively nulifying the money i spent on a ks. Intel lost me a as a customer.
That forced downclocking is probably only delaying the complete failure too.
had this on 13600K dx12 issue something like that
i like how giant companies act like assholes and not speak about their fuckups until is too late
While true, it's basically the same as why you don't tell the police what you're guilty of when they pull you over. You have the 5th amendment right to not self-incriminate.
If it shows on the bottom line the banks will be mad and ask tough questions on their next earnings call. I'd expect we might get more info on this then
They pretty much have to do that. Companies have a duty first to protect shareholder value, and part of that includes saying as little as possible that could undermine that value. Everything else, including owing truth to customers and employees, comes after that.
They may also simply not know WTF is going on. Of course, if that's true, Intel could at least admit it.
@@LatitudeSky yep. they solely exist to make money, everything is just a byproduct of that
I can't imagine any enterprise impacted by this sticking with Intel exclusively after this. It's hard enough to imagine them using Intel at all.
It would still have been bad, if Intel had come forward, but their silence is damning.
Which is bad. The industry does not need a monopoly. AMD is doing good work but unless Via shows up we could be screwed.
Sadly there are so few choices of vendors an enterprise may not have the option but still use them. . .
@@Razzbow There is still a LONG way to go to just AMD be on par in volume to Intel. And it would be good if AMD would get a leg up to at least get closer to 50% market share as they deserve it.
AMD really is that bad, that virtually no one is going to do it. nevermind consistent bugs in their firmware, ryzen processors create the worst numa nightmares possible which is probably the most costly 4 letter word in systems administration
@@malcomreynolds4103well AMD CPUs don't randomly die. So there's that.
I feel that the most dangerous thing for Intel is not even a recall or some kind of reimbursement but the loss of trust from the point of view of the consumer… honestly it’s been bad enough for those affected, especially large data center customers, currently that it’s hard to imagine them recovering from this fully in the near future
Thank you steve. Their silence on this issue is disgusting.
not much they can say until they themselves know what is going on, how to fix it, and which action is less of a fiscal risk for them.
Thanks, Steve!
@@darschpugs4690 They could give the options they are thinking of, i.e. if its hardware issue they will replace with the newer cpus, if its microcode they will release as soon as they can be sure it will fix, etc...
@@MadeByStu What if the microcode downgrades our performance to i5/i7 levels? Is this not a bait and switch?
Silence? They already gave their answer a month ago. None of the mobo manufacturers were following their guidance. Go cry to ASUS, MSI or whatever. Learn how to OC yourself instead of AI overclocker. Be a man
Somebody at Unreal Engine development said "Let it cook", Intel saw it and took that literally.
Thanks for all the work you put into consumer advocacy and investigative journalism. Truly rare to see in this day and age.
All of the affected CPUs will ultimately have to be replaced. Running them slower just delays the ultimate failure due to oxidation. So, any units after 12th gen simply can't be trusted.
Ironically, my I9-13900k Chrome window crashed 4 times while watching this. The processor and build was bulletproof then just like a switch was flipped, it all went to hell. Let me know where to sign up for the class action lawsuit.
Confirmed this video is cursed if you watched it using intel cpu
maybe a 4 core would work watching youtube if not theres always Celeron
@@gunturbayu6779 I gained 50% perfs on AMD while watching.
Video nerfs Intel CPUS but buffs AMD's.
@@kouskousjuda1311 Can confirm, my 7800x3d started boosting to 8GHz
James, have you been experimenting in BIOS? Disabling boost features etc? Has that improved your system stability at all?
Even though this doesn't and probably won't ever affect me or my 12100f, Intel's response to this may very well be the driving force that pushes me and many others away who previously stood by Intel and their products. Who would want to invest in a product with such excessive faults and next to no agency from the manufacturer for a solution or reimbursement?
I'm just glad I didn't go too deep down the Intel hole...
At first it was only xx900 CPUs. Then xx700 started popping up, but in much less frequent numbers. Now reddit sees more xx700 CPUs daily, and the first xx600 CPUs have just been reported by Steve's source.
So, yup... you should be glad it's a 12100f and not a 13100f you have, because if this shit keeps going, then even xx100 CPUs might end up failing.
The good news is that there are currently very competitive products that don't require any compromises. The bad news is that this hasn't always been the case and may someday be inadequate again. The market benefits from both companies innovating and having success. We don't win if one of them stumbles.
@@andersjjensen Nah, he'll be fine. The 13100 is just a rebranded 12100, anyway.
From all the various reports of affected CPUs you can at least draw the conclusion that Alder Lake (12th gen) is fine. It's just Raptor Lake (and of course RL-refresh, since it's basically the same thing).
@@LatitudeSky And it's even worse if they stumble over a guard rail while trying to cross a bridge O_O
Just in case, check your CPU voltages on HWInfo64 and in your BIOS. Hopefully, Intel did not overvolt some of their lower end CPUs. We can't trust Intel or AMD on this. I still remember AMD's 1.5v idle on my 3700X, and some people claimed it was okay. I updated BIOS and undervolted that insane voltage. AMD/Intel juice up (more voltage) their some weaker parts to meet marketing specs.
Would be interesting to bench Intel CPU's at that 53x multiplier with DDR5-4800 and contrast that with "default" "out-of-the-box" specs so people can get an idea of how much they stand to lose.
Wow, having to fully swear off an entire brand because their problems are so bad and their response is worse...wild. Thanks GN! I appreciate what you do and the information you share with us consumers!
**chrome crashing continuously while watching this video with my never overclocked 13900kf**
Could be anything tbh, iirc there are some specific tests you can run, but I'm woefully uninformed what those are exactly.
While it's very possible you got a bad chip, also check your RAM.
Different cpu in socket solves the problem. I haven't had much time to play games, at most 50 hours on this cpu, and now that I think about it, Sons of the forest kept crashing. I mainly used the pc for web programming with notepad++, so the heaviest loads always have been chrome or discord. Contact frame did not help, cpu pretty much never above 55C with custom loop. Rma with Intel approved.
Mine had chrome crashing too.. coupled with crashing the network drivers. funny to notice that first the video /browser crashes and then i cant get back to youtube.. had to restart the whole system several times per day.
the system in question been in the shop for last 4 weeks (was a 1 week estimate) waiting for parts for warranty.. i guess they cant find a working i9
safe to assume that this will be the last intel cpu ill buy cause at this stage they mightaswell just set ablaze to their factories and f off from the biz.
There's something dribbling on your chin there..
As an i9 13900kf owner I really want a positive bit of communication from intel. It’s got me really feeling like my next chipset choice will be AMD
But have you had any problems? I have a 13900K myself. I've had the TDP limited since the beginning, because it actually performs better when it never draws enough power to get hot enough to throttle. Other than that though, no unusual crashes or any other problems related to it.
@@Sotanaht01no issues yet*. Everything is pointing to the more you use it the quicker it starts to mess up. Or you just have a good one that has no issues.
sell it while noobs don't know about this issue and get Zen 4
I'm using a 12600K and although it's probably not affected by these issues the way Intel is handling all of this is definitely convincing me to go AMD in the future. Might actually sell my CPU and board soon and go for a Zen 5 CPU this fall.
mine will be amd aswell
It seems that Intel has manufactured 13th & 14th Gen chips at 2 locations Kiryat Gat, Israel, and Chandler, Arizona. Not sure of the % manufautred at either location but if oxidation is an issue and Wendell's rough calculation that 50% of chips might need to be replaced that sure makes it seem like one of those two locations is the issue.
A fab level manufacturing defect like that could also completely explain why Intel has been so tight lipped about this. It could jeopardize the growth of intel foundry services which is vital to Intel's continued viability as a manufacturer and not just a chip designer.
I would blame Kryat Gat
Since a month ago there have been reports that Intel won't be continuing with the construction of the new $25 billion fab in Kiryat Gat. Might be related, might be due to the Gaza crisis, might be both.
@@jplayer073call it what it is, a genocide
Gaza crisis. Lolz @@jplayer073
It's really too bad, this whole situation. They've pushed the monolithic high frequency envelope too far to the point where the manufacturing process fails to be robust enough to handle it. AMD runs hot, but at less power, and they aren't having this mode of failure.
Great reporting as always. You present facts and any conjecture is specifically called as such. Keep on doing the good work, my friends.
I’ve had the 14900K since September 2023 - day one, delidded. Undervolted and set limitations on the power delivery. Additionally, I limited the two P-Cores from boosting to 6GHz.
And despite all of that, I started experiencing system instability in June 2024. WHEA errors and system freezes, leaving my PC completely unresponsive. This has occurred roughly 6-8 times since June.
I think it’s only a matter of time for most chips, especially if mine with compensation like delidding and power limits being in-place from the point of installation, started experiencing these symptoms. As someone who has reliably built with Intel parts for two decades, this generation will be the tipping point for me.
Same my day 1 14900K ways having issues
Are your wheas error 17 related to pci lanes?
Buying room heaters for Multithreaded compute workloads and disabling the e-cores when x3D chips exist never ceases to amaze me.
I7-13700K here, I have gone through 2 CPUS actually, seme BS as you WHEA and full system freezes specifically in a few scenarios, playing star citizen and streaming using OBS so high system usage, and weirdly, running bluestacks, the first CPU ate itself and stopped booting, the second one just does the system freezes, I have had 30+ freezes every single time a patch for obs or the games I play comes out until I configure the latest settings to not overtax the machine. I am beyond Tilted at this point.
Well it is plausible as you are going outside of the expected use case you caused your troubles and it has nothing to do with whatever this larger problem is. Not saying I think that is the case. Simply that just one data point isn't very conclusive, and delidding isn't a zero risk operation. Still undervolted, power limited and presumably with a chip temperature that is both more even across the chip and lower than normal really does sound bad for Intel - if it was just a case of they over rated their products by a tiny margin more than than the weakest ones off the production line can actually handle that wouldn't be good, but also not too terrible, tuning down a monster CPU a tiny bit so it won't blow up isn't going to really upset too many folks enough to hurt Intel much. But when it sounds like you haven't let the chip get even near its rated performance limits....
As a Service Technician here in Australia I've seen a large volume of intel CPU's coming in and testing as faulty, it's frustrating for us because we now have such a large volume of systems taking up space waiting for replacement CPU's form intel that can sometimes take up too 3 weeks.
At least intel can replace those. What happens when the first wave of 13th gen laptop CPUs starts to fail?
@@TryHardNewsletter Those 13th and 14th gen laptop cpu are largely for gaming laptops and just as old as the desktop ones, if they were failing we'd see them on those game error reports like the warframe one I believe it was. They never marked like 5 that were under 1% but I assume none of those were intel cpus so wouldn't be the laptop ones since they skipped labeling one that was higher up in the pie chart because it wasn't intel I assume. So that means the laptop ones at least aren't showing up in anything notable enough to even report... so even if they do have problems maybe it would take so long the laptops would be largely obsolete anyways and on top of it any updates intel gives would even further prolong it's life making a small risk almost insignificant.
What's going to happen when those replacements fail as well? If it's degradation you'll keep seeing them until Intel fixes the issue.
I work at a small HPC org, one of our technicians personal rigs were having issues due to their 14900K causing corruption of kernel drivers when doing heavy compiling workloads. They did 2 RMAs before getting a full refund from our provider
Also have read many other reports of issues with I/O and NTFS issues on windows.
This oxidation theory is seeming scary accurate
Did they switch to AMD?
@@ploed Sadly, no, most of our projects heavily depend on compatibility with Intel, specially SYCL and icpc compiler
I don't see how anyone can justify buying an Intel CPU at this point. As a person who refreshes once every 7 to 10 years, I won't invest in a CPU that has a coin toss chance of being dead in a year. My Skylake 6700K is still operational in 2024 as it should be. Yes, I also have an AM4 system, and yes I am super glad I went the AMD route. Heck, even my AM3 CPU is still alive, and I still use it. This situation is so far from normal for any cpu.
I just did the swap from 4670K to 14700K I'm really happy. Upgrading like every 10 years
@@orfeous The 13700 is affected by this issue, with expectation that the 14700 will similarly be affected. I hope you end up being one of the lucky ones, but at this time the failure rate 1 year out seems to be somewhere on the order of 1 in 4 ; possibly higher with more time passing if it turns out to be this oxidation issue. With Intel not saying anything about whether they will replace them, I wouldn't have gone with Intel.
Had my i7-13700KF for about 8 months now. It started with small crashes to desktop in the first month - Now i'm having decompression issues that won't let me enter some games and some games just blue screen. Reducing it to 52x ratio is the only thing letting me play games as of right now.
sad to hear it , did you do anything about temp and tweaking bios or you just used it as it is ?
@@nemesis762its not a temp issue, its an actual cpu issue.
Again, RMA now while you still can, then sell the platform with the RMA'd CPU, if Intel is driving enterprise customers to AMD, they're in deep shit. So better be proactive on the issue because as I feared since the beginning of these symptoms, they're not fixable.
@@benjaminsmekens2344I would very much agree with this!
Although it's shitty for whoever you sell it to, it's just about the only chance you get to recoup the cost for your other component. Intel may swap your CPU, but they'll give a wet f*rt on your mainboard.
There's decently prices AM5 boards out there now, Zen 5 is right around the corner and if you wait for X3D, that'll wipe the floor anyway with whatever Intel has later this year.
honestly i think its fair to compare zen 5 to intels 12th gen lineup, since thats the most recent STABLE line of cpus
Or just run Intel at baseline power profile with JEDEC memory speed (5600).
It almost doesn’t even matter. AMD is going to be curb stomping Intel until Arrow Lake comes out. Adjusting the settings on Intel CPU’s is just changing the amount by which they get beat. Combined with higher power draw and (frequently) higher price, there’s literally no reason to consider Intel for the next few months even if their CPU’s were stable.
@@benjaminlynch9958 Eh, even Intel baseline power doesn't solve the problem.
Zen 5 beats Alder Lake on IPC, Zen 4 doesn't
Came here to comment this, you beat me to it. If 13th and 14th are not viable CPUs, then why compare them at all?
@@benjaminlynch9958 Intel degradation story is probably the ring disintegrating from Vcore beeing very high (which is necsessary for 1T - 2T Pcore boost).
Placing MEMORY on JEDEC-5600 or XMP-7200 or MANUAL OC-7600 doesnt really matter is instability comes from the ring.
Power limiting doesn't really matter as 1 - 2 (probably not even 4) cores loaded can't pull 125W CPU Packdage power.
Finally people will stop saying I have a skill issue with my 13900k. Now I can deflect it towards intel!
I have about 8000 hours of time on my cpu, and issues started after about 2000 hours. I got some stability back from locking speeds to 5.5ghz. I got more from updating bios and setting power limits manually. I didn't have a bsod for months but now I occasionally bsod OR power-down. It's definitely degrading. The cpu is delidded and has been running cool at around 35° - 55°c the whole time.
Are you using liquid metal?
How is you CORE VID?
Clearly a skill issue. The 13900K needs to be overclocked to 6.9ghz at 4.20V to be stable. Shame on Steve for not figuring this out 😤
Dude I had just bought a i7 14700k. Running back to best buy and exchanging it for a 7800x3d
my Intel 14900k started to fail this week = July 10th ,2024, temps / voltages in check. when i upgrade to Ryzen next week il send you the code on it. ty 4 being great and good to the comunity.
I find it concerning that two generations are affected and it took this long to get any traction. 13k has been out for years. Apparently marginal stability was deemed acceptable by OEMs and 'enthusiasts' for this long? Seen so many 13900k owners running around on forums trying to push people towards these chips. Meanwhile, a good number of them were undoubtedly experiencing mysterious stability issues that they conveniently failed to mention.
Really an indictment of both the 'enthusiast community' and Intel here I think. It shouldn't take years for obvious problems with a platform to be mentioned. To the few that have been honest about the issues with their systems over the years...Thank you for informing your fellow consumers instead of allowing your ego to motivate obfuscation of the full truth.
I guarantee you many of the issues people have are just assumed to be Windows issues. I always hypothesized many of issues attributed to software are really hardware issues but as they happen infrequently and not in ways that you would attribute to hardware like hard crashes or crashing under load most assume it's just "windows being windows".
I've personally never had many issues with any software but I am also weird in that I don't OC even in the slightest, I refuse to even run XMP memory.
Also, I do think in general many "enthusiasts" are just willing to accept and not care about instability issues because their PC for lack of a better word is a tinker toy. They aren't truly relying on it to do anything but play games and tinker with it, both are relatively unimportant.
@@zacharytaylor8523 I'm sure you're right, especially since some of the errors (such as 'out of vram') aren't normally associated with CPU instability.
I'm very much in the 'stability is essential and the number one priority' camp. It's concerning to see how long an issue like this remained under the radar.
The problem here is that the degradation happens over time. Initially the CPUs might have been fine.
I agree I find it weird how such widespread issues of 10-25% of chips having significant failures while running so roughly 18% of chips at almost the end of the second generation of the affected chips no less is now all of a suddenly noticed... Maybe it isn't actually that bad? Maybe the majority of the roughly 20% affected chips isn't a massive failure but an app crash once every week or so and that's about it? So not good but not the end of the world for most people that use 13th and 14th gen chips and any updates from intel might largely fix even that so this media coverage is making it seem far worse than it might be for the average person?
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep From a certain OEM, the 10-25% are certain chips believed to be affected by accelerated degradation from current RMAs and their production lots. From the RMAs, the OEM figured out which CPUs are likely to fail. Now, it is a waiting game to see how many CPUs will fail by the end of the warranties. Is this line on the graph going to be linear or exponential? We can only wait for data and Intel to make an announcement.
The data centers and game company servers start failing the fastest because their CPUs are running 24/7 all-year-round. Allegedly, stock voltages are too high, which cause degradation that accelerates with more uptime. Raptor Lake came out in October 2022, and by the end of 2025, the first batch of these CPUs' warranties expire. The complaints are piling up now because OEMs and DIYers are starting to get hit by persistent instability. Intel's expected lifespan of Raptor Lake might have been off by a year if more Raptor Lake CPUs have hit their limits at stock settings and require undervolt and underclocking to maintain functionality.
Fascinating era to be in, to see Intel having their own version of FX processors, but worse than the FX were. The Boening of digital industry.
FX was slow but not broken or error prone
@@battmarnan important distinction indeed
@@battmarn Slow in math heavy apps and "power hungry" (95W was considered power hungry back then), but wicket fast at code compile and other logic heavy tasks. There were many many programmers who adored them. However, the performance uplift from the Phenom X6 1100T I had at the time was not enough to entice me.
But yes, they run to this day. My friend has one that has been competitively overclocked for prolonged periods that sits in his NAS and chugs along just fine.
@@andersjjensenthey had cache issues, as instead of 8 core processors they were 2 4 core processors glued together, not like ryzen though. Was good for high speed traders though.
Intel doesn't have assassins on its payroll quite yet
Been rocking a 13700K since January 6th 2023, no crash, no issue ftm. Rock solid for working, vms and gaming.
Same hoping the tip/claim that the earliest the issue goes back to is March 2023 is true. Meaning my 13700k from January 2023 should be in the clear 🤞
I remember shitting on Intel for their complacency back in the forever 14nm days, all the while facepalming at the colossal disappointment that was AMD's Bulldozer and Piledriver architectures. Now I'm praying Intel will rescue themselves from this extremely worrying position.
If you don't have performance, efficiency or even the Intel mainstay, stability, no one even remotely informed will buy your products. For the health of the hardware market, I hope they recover from this soon and make things right for their customers.
Actually Bulldozer is great. I am typing this message on a machine with a FX 8320-E. Bought a i7 4090K around the period i bought this. Although the i7 was faster at compiling C++ code, the FX was not far behind. This AMD system is still super stable never had a blue screen or freeze where the i7 had a few(same mb brand, same ram same Sata SSD!). FX was only inferior if you play games which i don't. But in normal staff like web browsing, Microsoft APPs, developing, it is FAST!!!! even now after so many years.
@@dfloper For the right price, it was a viable budget CPU, and like yours, mine was also quite stable. However, it is underwhelming compared to the zen CPUs we now enjoy.
@@dfloper I was going to say, Bulldozer had its issues, but as multi-threading, OS scheduling, and compilers improved the processors was able to run better than on launch. Intel on the other hand the past decade has had huge performance hits after launch for the spectre/meltdown malware mitigations and now this if they have to throttle the CPUs down to keep them stable.
Don't forget security. Intel got hit the hardest with meltdown and spectre.
Yeah, if Intel implodes over this who the hell is going to be able to compete with AMD? It's going to be an absolute nightmare for consumers. They better find a way to right this ship and sort out their QC issues. I'm betting the introductory MSRP of Zen 5 is going up by ten dollars for every day that this Intel scandal continues.
It just came out recently that it is effecting laptop variants too.
any source?
Intel is going to bury themselves alive with this fiasco.
I think we need proof of life before we make the claim they are still alive while being buried this hard with no public statements trying to damage control...
me and my old man have a pair of 4790k's that are 10 years old and still in use. meanwhile their current products dont even last 1 year... i **want** to buy intel but goddamn im not touching that mess.
Calling it now. $1-2 billion loss for Intel, including fines if the European Commission doesn't slam the hammer. If they do similarly to VW's Dieselgate, Intel might be facing bankruptcy.
@@quantum5661 my friends lasted 17h according to microcenter. I sent this video to him. This situation is completely unacceptable.
@quantum5661 I have done multiple 7800x3d builds. They are so efficient. My office is noticeably cooler. Look for a microcenter and pickup their bundle. I still have a 3770k I bust out for something now and then. Going to am5 will feel amazing.
Great content! Appreciate the technical dive-in-where I don’t understand all of it, it lends credibility to the need for independent reviews of hardware.
A deposition issue would indicate a failure at one of Intel's fabs not just with one of their pieces of equipment but with the calibration, QA and maintenance processes there so severe it would call for the removal of the entire executive team at that facility. Intel would be looking at a product liability lawsuit that could actually break the company.
I doubt that would break Intel, that is simply sky is falling talk.
@@exponentmantissa5598up to 2 million CPU’s. For ONE customer. Just for 13th gen. Adjust upward for all customers and 14th gen, and 10 million CPU’s is not an unrealistic liability here. This could very easily be $5-8 Billion dollars before all is said and done, and that doesn’t even account for repetitional damage and lost sales because of lost trust.
@@exponentmantissa5598 Intel was already not looking great with AMD slowly taking over all their markets and their GPUs still being a money sink with little returns. If they now have to deal with literally millions of broken chips, that'd be a huge deal.
@@benjaminlynch9958 It could easily be more than 5-8bil if it can be shown that Intel was aware of issues and still sold the CPUs. The damages for most of their customers are way larger than just the cost of the CPU (downtimes, service personnel, etc.).
@@exponentmantissa5598 If they really produced and somehow released 25% of all 13th and 14th gen consumer grade chips with faulty deposition processes that is tens of millions of affected chips. The consumer class action lawsuit in the US will be one of if not the biggest such settlement ever. It will make the tobacco and asbestos settlements look like pocket change. The EU will hit Intel with an equivalent fine. All the commercial buyers will also sue and get settlements that will amount to free CPU's forever.
Intel's best hope is that the machine is somehow at fault and they can pass the buck back to the manufacturer.
That oxidation theory is pretty solid. It's definitely something to do with the photolithography / fabrication process. I just didn't know if it was a excessive contamination issue, or the QC team not properly binning chips properly.
Department of Redundancy Dept.
Just imagine 9 000 000 CPU RMAs...
OMG, used market also f****d up too. You no longer can be sure that cheap or expensive CPU is fine even if it working.
Basically your only options right now are 12th gen, then 13th gen from i3 to i5-13500. Anything higher is a big no no. 14th gen should be banned entirely.
@@SunnyWave174 just buy AMD
@@JavadZahiri Nah, I still prefer Intel
@@SunnyWave174 why?
@SunnyWave174 That's fine. When AMD was the inferior option, they still had loyalists. Now that things have flipped, it's only reasonable to expect that there are loyal Intel users that stick by them when they're struggling.
Last Intel CPU for me was i7 9700K (since Core2 E6400 days). I grew tired of having to change the complete system for every CPU upgrade. I’m on AM4 since 2019, very happy didn’t have to change anything except for CPU. And now this….. priceless
@@mimitan where did I say that must be no competition? I’ve always bought what I judged to be a good cost/benefit. It can be any of then, and that’s what happened over the years. I won’t list all CPUs I had in the last 32 years. Just read my comment again and this time pay attention on what my point was.
@@mimitan true colors revealed. Abort, Ignore, Retry?
It's very concerning that even the low-TDP "T" SKUs are affected by this.
Need to learn about how all this works so you can deal with it easier lower numbers and check stability
Nothing we can do about oxidation tho
The worst thing about this whole ordeal is Intel's lack of communication. I figure they'd prioritize their image and prevent a panic with their shareholders. Let this whole thing blow over and then kinda address it with the new generation. Basically the Apple route.
I think they simply have nothing to share because they haven’t figured out the shit themselves 😂
They care more about OEMs. They're trying to get them sorted first before giving a shxt about DIY.
Speaking of Apple and OEMs, I think Apple might have just dodged a bu-- 😬
If we got 14nm++++++++++++++++++ this would not have happened
Lmao, the i9-11900K was going to suicide itself.
12th gen with 10nm working fine
@@prashantmishra9985 13th gen and 14th gen is still Intel 10nm, they basically did nothing, only pushed the sillicon harder to it's limits.
@@saricubra2867AMDs chips are also mostly 10nm currently. nm is a marketing term, it doesn’t really represent the true size of transistors any more.
@@jcdentonunatco amd chips use tsmc 5nm who's real transistors are very small compared to intel 10nm. Just check it up on the fabricators website on the architecture and die size.
The more I learn about ho the sausage is actually made, the more impressed I am with what new (midrange) CPUs actually offer for the price. And the more I am impressed about how something like this has not happened before now (or at least I don't recall it happening). One Big Question- Do they not test every CPU to check to see if it's ok before deciding what CPU it will be and then shipping it? Is the pre-sale testing MUCH higher for actual server grade CPUs (Xeons/Epyc)? That would explain part of the much higher retail prices- as server hardware needs to be very reliable. I am a bit dismayed that Intel did not detect this issue much earlier.. and do something about it. Maybe the oxidation issue is not something they can easily test for after fabrication... it may take thousands of hours in use to make itself known. So Intel decided to just "wait and see" which CPUs become too unstable to use. Basically making their customer their Q&A team.