Italian Communists, The French in Indochina, and the fate of Italy’s army - WW2 - OOTF 34
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 кві 2024
- What happened to Italian Soldiers overseas after the fall of Mussolini? What about the French soldiers left over in Indochina after the Japanese “occupation by invitation”? And, what did the Allies think of the Italian Communist movement and its partisan forces?
Join us on Patreon: / timeghosthistory
Or join the TimeGhost Army directly at: timeghost.tv/signup/
Check out our TimeGhost History UA-cam channel: / timeghost
Between 2 Wars: • Between 2 Wars
Follow WW2 Day by Day on Instagram: @ww2_day_by_day
Follow TimeGhost History on Instagram: @timeghosthistory
Like us on Facebook: / timeghosthistory
Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
Creative Producer: Marek Kamiński
Community Management: Ian Sowden
Written by: Tom Aldis
Research by: Tom Aldis
Editing and color grading by: Simon J. James
Artwork by: Mikołaj Uchman
Sound design by: Simon J. James & Marek Kamiński
Colorizations by: Mikołaj Uchman
Source literature list: bit.ly/SourcesWW2
Archive footage: Screenocean/Reuters - www.screenocean.com
Soundtracks from Epidemic Sound:
Dark Seas - Michael Rothery
A TimeGhost chronological documentary produced by OnLion Entertainment GmbH.
Here’s the story of how Tom came to write for us, as told by Indy.
“I randomly meet a guy at an airport pub and we become pals; his son happens to be an historian; I talk to son and he seems to be on the ball; son gets some history writing thrown his way. A story that's been told a thousand times over the years... wait. Okay there's a first time for everything then.”
If you ever have the chance to visit restaurants in Mödlareuth, that's where you get the closest to a communist spaghetti. I could make jokes (and we did) that the recipe begins with 3 spoons of oil and I'm telling you okay we go on Wednesday because they have oil again, instead I want to talk about how it was actually like before the shortages.
Because it's Italian, their products were a rarity, but for the sake of argument let's say it's being made.Now it has to be factored in that the climate at the time was different from what it is now, so even though I'm Gen X I still got raised on considerable portions. State run restaurants were no exception. In fact, because block house apartments were intentionally built with kitchenettes because the ideal was that women work so cooking is for the weekends, during the week it's rstaurants. Ngl they were good. Living in the happiest barrack I got to listen to a sketch about a man forcing another to eat everything they ordered, simply because if he doesn't, the ever watchful central planning reduces portions, and the guy knew it was heavily subsidized.
As such a communist spaghetti would have, until aforementioned shortages, meatballs made with fatty meat and lard, high carb noodles and a very generous tomato sauce, so basically a Southern Italian version..
@@akosbarati2239 Were the workers' restaurants/cafeterias better than the ones for professional people? That's how it was in the USSR according to one of my old Russian teachers who was born and raised in Moscow. She was a medical doctor and it was hard for people like her to make a living because the miners and industrial workers got better pay and access to better stores to shop in. All those people standing in kilometer-long lines? They were what we'd consider upper-middle or professional class people here in the US. They had cafeteria-style dining for most of their workers too and the workers got more and better food than people who did manual labor.
@@Raskolnikov70 I'm no authority on Communist Russia but you seem to make a clear line between Workers and those who do manual labour.
Are you sure you don't mean Communist Party Members?
Party members got the good stuff Everyone else professionals, office clerks, people actually mined and actually workerd in factories Everyone else queued, made do
Party workers sat on their asses, made stupid speeches, voted the way they were told when they were told in committees
The Committees "ran" everything. And unless you gave the right bribe to the right committtee chairman nothting happpened. BUt if yiu podthe rihght bribes tio terigght peoplethae sky eas he lomit, sequestration of property, false imprisonment for anyone that got in your way, police "looked the other way" while your gang beat up someone who didn't pay protection. Anything youn wanted.
Everyone informing on everyone else you never knew if you were talking to regular guy or a KGB man.
Anyone shouting out the truth on the streets - disappeared.
Everyonne hated it
at least that's what i got from listening to UK BBC radio 4 for the lasst 2 decade of the cold war 1979 89
Does anyone have any idea which episode had the fake Pizza Hut advertisement?
@@brucebartup6161 No, the Party members were in a class all their own and didn't have to associate with the little people. Ironic, that. The difference came because the state set all the wages and prices and decided that manual laborers deserved more than people who sat in offices. And because they're communists and don't understand how the real world works, didn't understand that this would sap the motivation and willingness out of people who are needed to run the economy.
So you had factory workers and coal miners who were making quadruple the wages of doctors and lawyers and were at least somewhat productive, while the office workers slacked off or left work early (or sick - more about that in a sec) in order to stand in lines for bread and shoes. It was like a sea anchor on their entire society and culture, it's the reason nothing worked and production quotas could never be fulfilled, because people had no motivation to work any harder than they had to to avoid getting gulaged.
Like I said above, this instructor (she was one of many) was a medical doctor in the USSR and talked about their health system a lot as well. It's one of the things that gets lauded about these economic systems because they put so much money into them, which is great but causes knockoff problems. They get unlimited doctor visits and sick leave, so what do you think happens when unmotivated workers are given an out? Flu season made every office like a ghost town, because as soon as anyone got a sniffle they'd head to the doctor's office and get a bed rest chit. And then go stand in line for bread and shoes.
It wasn't military weakness or political corruption that made the Soviet Union collapse, it was their ideology that made the average person not care that ruined them. Why work to build something that's not benefitting you?
It's not "Communist spaghetti", it's "Leninguini".
Always served with red sauce
You can have Communism, or you can have food. You can't have both at the same time.
@@Raskolnikov70 Depends if that form of Communism is Collective Farming over Individual Farmers.
@@samsmith2635 I bet you're fun at parties.
@@razorbird789
No other parties allowed
Fun fact: after the war, the Italian Communist Party started holding what are basically yearly town fairs, all over the country. They set up restaurants, raffles, shows, concerts, everything, and of course speeches, rallies and political debates with party leaders. All manned by volunteers (party members and sympathisers), with the proceeds going to the party's newspaper and the party itself (in fact, they were the party's largest source of income). So yes, there are communist spaghetti (and any other Italian dish you could think of), and they're very tasty.
If they had more carnivals and fewer famines and prison camps, their ideology might have really taken off.
That is so Itaian!
I have great memories of the Festa dell'Unità, although I was born after it was no longer communist but centre-left.
@@Raskolnikov70 Italian communists had famines and camps?
@@jecko980 No, thankfully they were defeated so they didn't get that far. Unlike every other "successful" communist takeover in recorded history.
4:00 "Gentlemen! You can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
My old business acquaintance, Vito Cellini, wrote a book about his experiences serving in the Italian Army in Yugoslavia in WWII, stealing a motorcycle and joining the Partisans when Italian resistance collapsed, returning to Bari, Italy the day after the disastrous German air raid, and working as an operative for both SOE and OSS. But the damnedest part of the story is Vito was an American citizen by birth and had a hell of a time convincing anyone of this fact. By the way, when I spoke with him last year, he had just turned 100.
War is weird. When I was in Iraq in 1991 we had a guy from Chicago come through our field hospital as a POW. He was Iraqi by birth but raised in America, was visiting family when the war started the year prior and got drafted. It was hilarious seeing doctors and nurses walk up to him assuming he didn't speak much English only for him to bust out talking in the most Chicago accent you've ever heard.
@@Raskolnikov70 That's too funny. Unfortunately, Vito didn't have that luxury. His family returned to Italy when he was about five and he'd forgotten most of his English by the time the Allies reached Italy. His father was living in the German occupied north and had his birth certificate, so all Vito could do was plead in a very heavy Italian accent, "Imma American; Imma froma New York City." Even now, after 80 years, he still sounds like an immigrant straight off the boat from Naples.
@@Raskolnikov70 What exactly does a Chicago accent sound like? I'm from that area (born and raised) and have been told by others who have never lived or been in this area that I do not have an accent and that there really isn't one.
HOWEVER, I have heard of a "midwest accent" which is characterized by a deeper voice (which I do have) and our figures of speech/choice of words. (Examples: calling "soda" pop, and saying how many minutes it takes to get somewhere instead of saying miles/distance, both of which I/we do say here).
@@MechWomanWarrior15 People never think they're the ones with the accent. I'm originally from NYC but living in Minnesota for the past few decades now, talk about a clash of cultures. But trying to tell Minnesotans they have an accent will get you an earful - in a very thick dontchaknow voice. And then they tell ME that I'm the one with the accent......
I would describe it as what you said, that sort of upper-midwestern twang combined with more urban-sounding accents from Philly or thereabouts. You don't really hear it until you've been away from a place for a while and then come back.
@@MechWomanWarrior15I assume it sounds like Ferris Bueller!
We recently found my Italian grandfathers papers from the war. After flying back to Italy from Greece he snuck his way home and started his lifelong career as a machinist/model maker. When he was redrafted by the Italian Social Republic, he got papers exempting him from the new draft because he was employed in a war industry. Funnily enough the exemption is printed in German, with smaller subscript in Italian.
Mangia, mangia, mangia!!!!
@@andershansson2245 There were jokes that after the Gran Sasso rescue, Mussolini was basically the Gauleiter of Lombardy.
June 1943 saw Italy refitting some of its submarines to transport mercury and other materials from Japan's Southeast Asian colonies. The submarines were stripped of their offensive weapons to make room for cargo. Submariners were not happy.
I know the German and Japanese navies had submarines doing similar transport jobs going to and from Europe and Asia. Come around South Africa. It was a very dangerous voyage. You can find an example of one of these voyages gone bad where Japanese submarine I-52 was attacked and sunk by aircraft launched from USS Bogue. It happened in the Bay of Biscay off the coasts of France and Spain, 1944.
@@Warmaker01 off the coast of Norway, German WWII sunken submarine U-864 contains 67 tonnes of pure metallic mercury. The load of mercury already has leaked 150-300 kg of mercury into the marine environment, and the pollution goes on.
@@Warmaker01 To prevent the mercury from leaking further, the Norwegian government is sealing off 11 acres of the seabed with up to 40 feet of rubble. Dutch contractors built a rig to dig around the boat without damaging the hull or contaminating the sediment.
In 1945, the 5th REI of the Foreign Legion held the garrisons of Viét Tri, Tong, Tien Kien, Lang Son and Hanoi, with elements distributed in the surrounding garrisons. The Japanese, during the coup took control of all the garrisons using various methods in 24 hours. At Ha Giang, at Yen Bay, at Cao Bang, the French forces were annihilated. Some elements managed to join the bulk of the forces marching towards the Chinese border. The 9th company designated to guard the CP managed to exfiltrate. It joined its battalion and reaches China. The 3 battalions regrouped at Hung Hoa and headed towards the Chinese border, through the jungle and limestone. The last elements of the 5th REI crossed the border into China. They reached Tsao Pa on May 2 after having covered more than 1,500 km in 93 days. There, they benefited from the goodwill of General Pechkoff, a former Legion officer, representing France at Chungking.
Thank you for letting us know! Now that I look, I see the 5th REI (or the Régiment du Tonkin) did indeed serve alongside French regular units in Indochina. Although few in number, they were indeed at the forefront of the events described in the video. Thank you for this information, and for reminding us what makes the TimeGhost community so special. - Tom
Why didn't Indy talk about the 5000 or so French officers who fled to China in February March?
I love the banter you all have with each other.
I ♡ the mini Sparty appearing
@@ericcarlson3746 very Python-esc
We all know what we want after the WWII series come to end:The 100 years war - week by week!
In Britain we are told it was actually the 116 years war.(1347-1453).But THAT would be awesome....
😀😄😆👏👏👏
@@j.4332 Are you at least told Britain actually lost it ? 😛 Seems to get lost amongst the chatter about Agincourt and Crécy
TBF cold war coverage is extremely needed. It explains everything going on right now + there's no unbiased thorough doc's about it
@@IlyaIzr cold war is too vague, but Korean war as they have planned sound good in my books ! (i hope they'll cover the other conflicts hapening simultaneously as well)
One of the absolute, if not thee best, history channels anywhere. Period. I've studied history my whole life, (I'm 61), particularly WW2 and this channel has always surprised me with information about the war. I mean every...single...time. The research is simply remarkable. My hats off to Indy, Spartacus, and the entire team. Thank you for all you do.
(Btw, that little back and forth between Indy and Spartacus was hilarious).
Thank you for the lovely comment!
Sparty's series is outstanding. It's a must-see for anyone interested in WW2 history. It leaves no one guilt-free?
Yep, he gets props for covering every aspect of it. Most of the time when that kind of subject matter is addressed it's from one political perspective or another. Someone who just focuses on the facts is appreciated.
Regarding Indochina, there was also a famine mainly due to the Japanese seizing almost all of the rice harvests in the last year of the war, some one to two million people died of starvation.
Communist spaghetti! Brilliant!
I was traveling in Yugoslavia in the early 1970s with a German girl I met on an island in Greece. It was a crazy time. We went into a store to buy some food in Ljubljana, and I picked up a box of cookies. I started chucking and said to her, look, "communist cookies". She was not amused.
Who can forget the spectacle that was Senator McCarthy grilling Chef Boyardee over his so called Pasta Manifesto
My grandmother actually joined with the Vietnamese partisans and resisted the Japanese occupation when Vietnam rebelled against Japan. She was only eight years old and three feet tall
Wasn't until recently that I had learned of Italians serving in Asia facing same ultimatum from Japan.
Most of them were interned as enemy combatants. The Shanghai camps offered the interesting look of Jewish refugees hobbling in squalor whom the Japanese refused to hand over to the Nazis, members of international settlement, and the Italians as pows.
Where were Italians serving in Asia (other than embassies)?
Theres a Mark Felton episode on this, not surprisingly
@@davidw.2791 well Haven would be a stretch considering the squalor they lived in
There is a 1960 Italian film about this: Everybody Go Home (Tutti a casa) directed by Luigi Comencini. It features an international cast including Alberto Sordi, Martin Balsam, Alex Nicol and Serge Reggiani.
Tell Spartacus his war against humanity series is vital for reminding us the true human cost and horror of war. So far away in time and location its easy to romanticize battle, but forget the true cost.
Thank you Spartacus.
I was somehow sure that Spartacus reminded that in WAH he covered extensively the Nicolas Cage performance. That was at least the timing (3:35). Thanks Indy for clarification ;)
Do you remember which episode was that?
04:01 Sparty interrupting is funny. It reminds me of Terry Gillum's work from Monty Python.
Quite a few Monty Python fans on the team!
- Jake
@@WorldWarTwo I told you once... 😜
The 5th Foreign Infantry Regiment was present in Indochina, it was involved in a border incident at Lang Son in 1940
OOTF is such great supplemental content, really brings everything together.👏🏼
I miss the days when they'd do one of these every couple of weeks or so. They're understandably busy with the main episodes right now, but they're definitely a nice touch and it lets their humor and banter come through.
Thanks for watching!
5:43 : there is a short from Mark Felton relating how a FFL unit including Germans (!) was stationed at Lang Son and had to confront the Japanese in 1940 when they invaded after breaking the agreement.
Also, there's a movie that came out last February about a French Foreign Legion column in Indochina : "Les derniers hommes". I wonder if Steve Hansen is aware of this one.
There was small Italian torpedo boat garrison in Finnish Karelia, Lake Ladoga.
Bring back the Chair of Infinite Wisdom!!!!!!!!!!
My grandfather's brother joined the Italian army when he was 17, and was stationed in Montenegro when the armistice was declared. German troops detained and disarmed his entire unit, and they were split up and scattered to different work camps across northern Germany. He luckily survived the war and spent its remainder in a work camp near Oberntudorf. My grandfather retold stories of his brother surviving off potatoes stolen from the nearby fields. He finally returned home sometime in 1946 walking the distance to Statte in Puglia. His other brother was somewhat luckier; the oldest of the three brothers was a clerical typist in his division's headquarters, and forged leave papers to avoid being sent with the division to Russia in 1942. When he was eventually found out he was imprisoned as a deserter and got out sometime soon after the armistice.
Man this is the best channel on UA-cam 🙌🙌🙌
Thank you, appreciate your comment!
-Timeghost Ambassador
I very much enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Thank you for leaving in the side conversation with Sparty
You've just put my favorite actor into my favorite youtube series! W O W!!!
FINALLY caught up! Started watching The Great War like 2-3 years ago, watched all of it, then B2W and now I've run through this channel too, just in time for the sprint to the finish line of the European Theater. Let's goooo🔥❤
Hopefully you can be there day one when Indy covers the Korean War!
www.youtube.com/@KoreanWarbyIndyNeidell
Same here except I started last May and am up to here today. 06-05-24
Thank you.
Thanks!
Thank you very much!
YES THEY MENTIONED Captain Corelli's Mandolin!
A Timeghost restaurant! That's excellennnnnnt!!!
Nicely done video
Thank you for watching!
@@WorldWarTwo---Your welcome. I really enjoy your video's. I'm surprised Nutella wasn't mentioned in this video. I heard it was invented in Fascist Italy during WWII. Is that true?
Im more than a year late on the series but im a fan of your work and will watch and like many videos to come.
Thanks.
Thank you, every like or comment helps us with the algorithm.
-TimeGhost Ambassador
@@WorldWarTwo no jokes in algorithm
Seizing the means of production makes me sweaty. Oops, I dropped my communist spaghetti.
Re: French Foreign Legion there was one (3 Bn) Regt located in Northern Indochina, the 5e REI throughout the war. Suffered very badly after Japanese attack in Mar 45
I'm here primarily for the history, but the moments of levity are also appreciated. BTW, there's a recipe for "Communist Spaghetti" right here in Mao's "Little Red Cookbook".....just so everyone knows. Thanks very much!
About the French legion Indochina. You should see Dr.feltons video about the only French foriegn legion in Indochina being primarily Austrian. They were demobilized by the Japanese and most repatriated to nazi europe. A few were convinced to join the Japanese and continue the fight for the axis.
Where is the chair of infinite knowledge
Is it safe
Is it alright
Yes, I made it & thanks it was a good mix.
Thanks for joining the premiere!
Long time ago, before Soviet Union had fallen, I was on field trip with my primary school class in Leningrad (as St Petersburg was once known). There we had some communist spaghettis, and while the time has erased some memories, it has not erased the fact that it was terrible.
By the way, I don’t recall any reference on the Italy partisans’ republics between summer and November 1944.
Maybe you should make a small special about them.
Wooo I love this dude
I just found out I got accepted into the Toronto Metropolitan University to study history, Indy is the best history teacher out there, helped me turn a passing interest into a lifelong passion
You can bet that Communist Spaghetti would have plenty of RED sauce.
For those who don't know: THERE IS a "communist spaghetti" in Germany to this day. Östspaghetti. A traditional DDR (GDR) dish, with spiral noodles (no, fusili is something else despite the Barilla box), Ketchup and Wiener/Frankfurter style, cut into pieces. It is as horrible as it sounds, but I respect it. My ex East German wife loves it. (so... I better respect it). A great UA-camr once said: "history does no happen in a vacuum" 🙂
We have a similar dish here in the U.S. known as "depression stew" or "hobo stew", made with macaroni, hot dogs, tomatoes, beans, pretty much a bunch of inexpensive staple foods mixed together. It's not a bad combo if you make it with better quality ingredients, but people back then weren't eating it for quality, just to survive.
As someone grwoing up in East Germany, it neither sounds nor tastes horrible. You should listen to your wife. :P
OOTFH let’s goooooo!
Indy Snidell
God dang it! You guys are so cool ❤
Much appreciated!
Will the channel be doing anything about the Nuremberg Trials?
Maybe they'll do an episode or 2
ok what's the deal with not sitting in the COIK since forever?
Not sure if has been covered but I would love to hear more about Operation Goldflake.
Indy, how many 'Prisoners' fought in the Battle of Bulge like the 'Prisoners' fought for the Germans on D-Day?
I couldn't believe when you yall answer my question on the second out of the foxhole over 4 years again now. Keep going at it
Fun fact: Palmiro Togliatti was acknowledged in Russia to the extent that they named a city after him, "Togliattigrad".
No, just Tolyati (Тольяти)
@@antasosam8486 thanks for the heads up, as an Italian I've always known it at Togliattigrad.
Is that as in Lada Togliatti/Tolyati, who were one of Russia's leading hockey clubs until they got relegated from the KHL a few years ago?
@@edwardburek1717 Yes, the Lada automobiles (originally a licensed copy of a Fiat model) are produced in the city of Tolyati.
what were the italian smoke untis?
Best, most detailed series EVER! can’t wait for the Korean war series!!!!
Thank you, really appreciate the support.
-TimeGhost Ambassador
I'm sorry to say that telling that "french officiers" were interned is a understantement. Some officer and administrators was killed after being taken prisonner. And about 2 000 military Frenchmen and 2 000 indochinese were killed while being PoW. And another 1 000 civilian Frenchmen are killed in the 48h. In the next six month, another 1 500 died.
Thanks for the gratuitous Nicholas Cage cameo.
One of my grandfathers was a newly recruited soldier during the 8th of September debacle. He was a coastal guard artillerist. The captain of company decided to disband the company and dissembled the artillery pieces first snd threw the various pieces in the sea. They were caught by the Germans and made to dive back in the sea, collect the pieces and reassemble the artillery. Many troops (including his company) vaporized in thin air and each soldier made his way back home in whatever way they could. He managed to get back home hungry, sick of malaria and overall exhausted.
The Communist Spaghetti art joins the Soviet Shark Army art as the only AI art I am happy the channel is using.
17:05 No, you probably have to share it with everyone at the restaurant.
As one of Tom's handsomest friends, I am extremely proud of him and excited to see more of his contributions!
Also, he told me to say "and I can't wait to pay for his drinks the next time we hang out."
Don Camillo versus Pepone 🙂
Regarding Italy and power struggle with the Communists, am event worth of mention is the massacre of "Malga Porzus". (malga is a hut of sheperds)
Also, if you understand Italian, for post-war communist history I suggest the podcast "l'ombelico di un mondo" on the "il post" news site.
Indy you the crew rock!
Nice humor!
Glad you enjoyed!
I personally enjoy Italian meatballs more than Swedish meatballs. But both are really really good. 😊
Interesting
Thanks for watching!
You guys are having way too much fun!
I'm making pasta right now (a shrimp putanesca becuase I forgot to take out a package of froze venison for venison spaghetti and meatballs) so Indy's communist spaghetti really cracked me up. I'd ask my daughter to make communist spaghetti sometime, but knowing her it'd end up being anarchist pasta e fagioli.
Thanks for another awesome episode.
I thought Sparticus meant that he was referring to a Nicholas Cage movie as part of the war against humanity
A note about Italian soldiers who surrendered to the US: a great uncle fought for the Italians, surrendered to the US, and eventually was resettled in Ohio. I don’t know how frequently this resettlement occurred, but it shows that the US did not feel that former Italian soldiers would be a problem settled in the US.
It was partially because of the influence of huge Mafia families in the U.S who "support" a certain amount of commanders and politicians at the time.
In order for these family to collaborate with the American in the invasion of their country. A certain deals were made to guarantee that the Italian POW would be welcome and well treated in the U.S. Prison Camp.
Many Axis POWs (German & Italian) had relatively easy times in the American camps. They had day passes outside the wire, did farm work, etc. Many chose to stay in the US after WW2 or were repatriated but came back to America. There is another comment about Italians in Ohio further down.
@@MM22966 Thanks for the note. It's ironic that actual soldiers who fought the US were treated better than Japanese American citizens during the war.
@@paulpoenicke5642 Well, it wasn't great (for the Nisei, the Japanese-Americans), but they did recruit troops from them and sent them to fight in Europe (442nd Regimental Combat Team), so they didn't COMPLETELY distrust them.
@@paulpoenicke5642 Np!
Almost out of time for these out of the foxhole. foxholes. The end is near. Great stuff Indy!
The history of the so called "IMI" (Internati Militari Italiani) is still very much incomplete and not well known even in Italy.
They are by now recognized as part as the wider resistance to Germany and the Salo regime by historiography, since most of them refused better living conditions in exchange for work in german war industry or repatriation in exchange for joining the Italian Republican Army, the success of which could have given Mussolini's regime some degree of legitimacy; and their living conditions were indeed pretty bad, since Hitler refused them the status of PoWs.
However, in the Cold War years the Resistance discourse became even more politicized, and former internees were excluded from public recognition. The shame of being part of a Nazi-aligned fighting force first, and then being disarmed and imprisoned by the former ally in terrible conditions also contributed to this silencing, which was often self-imposed.
So most of them never talked about the experience, and never left a testimony of what happened while the events were still relatively recent and fresh.
But institutions also didn't care. The Partisans Association didn't want them. The new Army did the bare minimum and wanted to sweep the past under the rug.
By the time historians started paying attention, a lot of the internees had either passed away, developed memory or other health issues, or were just too resentful and isolated to open up to them, and even when they did, it wasn't an easy process. The single events weren't as fresh now, but the overall experience was remembered as terrible.
Sadly, the history of the IMI is probably destined to remain painfully incomplete, and the public recognition isn't going well either.
Old and busted: tangled spaghetti. New and hot: deep kimchi.
As for the CSIR (Corpo Spedizione Italia Rossia) the Italian 8th Army,i think it was virtually wiped out during Operation Uranus when Stalingrad was surrounded.
Nope. Beside semantics (by the time of Stalingrad it was ARMIR and not CSIR, but as you said it, it was an Army-level unit, and not just a Corps anymore), the unit took heavy losses, but the sacrifice of the Alpinis, and more specifically the Tridentina division, allowed the rest of the italian soldiers, as well as germans and hungarians, to avoid encirclement and total annihilation. The italian surviving soldiers were repatriated to Italy.
Seeing as you're going to head right into the Koren Police action after WW2, I wonder if you're going to do a new between two wars for the rest of the 40's. Lots will be happening I know.
We will be covering some elements of the post-war period, like the Nuremberg trials. However, we are unlikely to do a long running series on anything after 1945. We still plan to do many specials and new episodes on other topics right here on this channel though!
Communist spaghetti, too funny. Does that only come with a red sauce?? I'm not an expert on Italian politics, but my grandfather used to say the hammer and sickle was mostly hammer and not so much sickle. He may not have been fully educated, but he had it figured out. Also, if you were an Italian with American relatives, you didn't want to rock the boat too much. Especially if your relatives were sending you money. Great video, chat with you more soon. Thanks for all you do.
Good questions, good presenters and good humour. What more can we ask for😂😂😂😂
Thank you for the lovely comment and thanks for watching!
@@WorldWarTwo you're welcome 😁👍
...but what is a Smoke Unit? Never heard of them before.
I didn't catch when they mentioned it, but a smoke unit is just that, a unit that operates generators or devices to create smokescreens. It might be for concealing an important attack (such as an amphibious landing or a river crossing) or (much used by the Germans) setting smokescreens around vital sites so they cannot bee seen and bombed by aircraft. The units may be on planes, ground, or ships. Sometimes they are assigned to Chemical Corps (such as in the US Army)
Great stuff. By the way, how about a video dedicated to Gibraltar during WW2? I've seen all your videos and don't recall it even mentioned.
I'll try a Commie Calzone instead of the sgetty.
what's a "smoke unit"?
I didn't catch when they mentioned it, but a smoke unit is just that, a unit that operates generators or devices to create smokescreens. It might be for concealing an important attack (such as an amphibious landing or a river crossing) or (much used by the Germans) setting smokescreens around vital sites so they cannot bee seen and bombed by aircraft. The units may be on planes, ground, or ships. Sometimes they are assigned to Chemical Corps (such as in the US Army).
I still want Belgian Waffles with Ca-Rommel sauce.
I love the attention the other major powers of the war receive here, like Italy and France.
This answered some questions about the Japanese army and the French in Indochina? And the partisans in Italy?
Where is Justinian's Desk you used during Out of the Trenches? Did the Allied bombing campaign destroy it? The world needs to know of what sort of bizarre Roman antics Justinian and Theodora got up to on that thing!
I’m all in for a chat about post war Italian politics 🥰😅💪
The battle of the reichstag is but a few weeks away... how things changed over hundreds of episodes!
We had a family friend that was in the Italian army and was captured in WW2. Like so many German and Italian POW's he was shipped to the US and was interned close to where we lived in Ohio. My mom said that the public could visit the camps on the weekend to meet these POW's in case one of them was a relative I guess. He met a girl visiting the camp with her family and they eventually got married. I'm not entirely sure if he was repatriated, but they lived in Ohio most of their lives. I always thought that was amazing that you could drop in on a POW camp in Ohio and see if there was anybody that you knew there in the middle of WW2. Was this relevant to anything in this video?? Not really, but I had to share. Thank you.
Same thing happened with my great-uncle. He ended up marrying a US woman and settling down in northwest Ohio.
Just want to second the notion that the Spies and Ties series by Astrid is great. Don't be so snide, Indy! 😂😂😂
From the armchair quarterback pov the Italian gov should have made more effort to position their forces as best as possible to be ready for the surrender so they could more easily get away or defend from Germans.
Exactly. After the fall of Mussolini in July 1943 Badoglio and the King wanted to end the war asap, but thought that they needed time in order to prevent a german takeover. In theory, while they tried to get favorable terms from the allies, they would quietly move troops in a position where they could stop a german invasion (at least until the arrival of allied troops): northern Italy was considered a lost cause, but it was definitely possible to protect Rome, perhaps even Florence. In practice, they didn't move any units, and didn't even try to prepare blowing up bridges/roads in the northern mountain. What they actually achieved was time for the germans to move reinforcements in.. IIRC, in July Germany had only a few (5?) divisions in Italy, in September there were some 20 german divisions. Furthermore, italian units were often left without any instruction and several commanders learned of the surrender.. from Radio London, or (worse) from the germans.
Indochina, the Japanese hardly known for their subtleties had dinner parties for all the French officers and after Saka and dinner proceddedvto arrest and inprison them all effectively neutralizing the French army. Interestingly the French army without officers was completely deknackered.
👍👍👍
✌✌✌
As bad as Cage’s Italian accent was, it still doesn’t warrant a mention in the War Against Humanity…