Thank you for this thorough reflection of the Knecht and Balaur Kriegsmesser. I would like to use this opportunity to say that I am impressed by the integrity and honesty of David Weiss of Cult of Athena in the way he acts in this individual case and how he engages with the sword community, makers and customers all. We would have a very different market for swords if more actors were of his caliber.
I'm absolutely stunned and happy to see the response too, that statement shows the integrity of the man there in ways I really didnt expect. So much so, that, if they intend to produce a new model for 2024, I am very much inclined to help out with that in providing source material so they can design something that is both unique, and doesn't impinge on your design work.
I'm curious what exactly is it that crosses the line? They are obviously very very similar. And the knecht is an original design based on historical examples. So you have a point, its pretty suspect to make something almost identical. However There are really only so many ways to design an effective sword that "looks like a knecht" meaning the same type, I guess.(I'm not familiar with messer typology) The knecht is legendary for a reason, it looks really damn cool, and cuts extremely well. My point is if the designers of the swords that inspired the knecht could see it maybe they would take issue with some similarities? With all due respect of course, I'm just curious. Is the sword just to similar in to many different aspects? P.s Huge fan of your work! Swords probably wouldn't be what they are today without you. Your work with Albion basically set a new standard for swords, I really can't thank you enough. Also I hope you're ok with people buying the remaining BA version because I can't afford a knecht 😅
@@sinisterswordsman25 Hope you wont mind me chipping in with my point of view, as someone who's studied messers extensively, and also makes stuff, so I can look at it from detail and manufacture sides. I can also give a point of view without any bias, as I don't have any connection to Albion. I also apologise for the LONG reply... you're absolutely right that there are only so many ways - single-edged blade, cross with a nagel, wood grips with pins and small pommel cap is pretty much the archetype of the messer, and that cant easily be changed. But the problem is the details - First, overall form - the same blade profile simplified, (it misses the little "step" on the spine that makes the Knecht's blade a Type 4b, going by the typology work.) but also its done on thinner stock (a thinner blade = cheaper raw material cost - only a few dollars/pounds/yuan, but when you're making a thousand, it all adds up!) There's physical dimensions which are uncomfortably close. For example, the fuller length being 59.7 and 59.7cm, matching identically, the blade thickness at the cross being 4.34 vs 4.30mm - the width of the cross being 25.1cm vs 25.7 cm, the hilt length of 22.7 cs 23.0cm. Each of these are just too similar for it to be a coincidence. to give you an example, I have another (original) kriegsmesser here in front of me as I type. I cant tell you the exact blade length because the tip is broken off. but, the fuller length is at least 77cm - the length the blade is broken at - I estimate the blade would've been about 85-90cm long originally, so a tiny bit longer than the Albion or Balaur designs. Yet the cross is 14cm wide, the hilt 16cm long. So dimensions which are dramatically different. I'd expect other messers to have similar gross variations in size - a much longer or smaller hilt, etc. So the fact is that in profile, if you were to do silhouette drawings, they are so similar becomes the big issue there. They did the right thing in creating a differently decorated cross, with the twisted spiral shapes, and the bulbous "button" tips. The problem in my eye is that they did so, copying the Knecht's overall proportions much too closely, and they didn't take the effort to continue those differences in the other principal areas of the design. There are so many details they could've done to make something different. the obvious example would be the blade. the point of balance is a little bit close to the cross, giving it less "authority" in the cut right now. They could've flared the blade out about 25cm from the tip, making that a false edge, giving it a broader, wider section (called a yelman), turning the blade into a Type 4c. that would've dramatically changed the profile for just a little bit of work. They could've gone for a Type 3d blade with a clip-point scalloped out at the tip. That would've again made a dramatic change to the overall style. Because the balance point is much closer to the cross, they could've gone for a completely different style of pommel. instead of the really quite rough impression of a form CC1 pommel, they could've easily gone for a flattened "dish" shape plate (Form DD) which would've had less mass, moving the balance point a little forward. that would've made a huge difference to the overall look and similarity there, even if the grip was fundamentally the same length as the Albion. Given the cross shape, they have made some effort to make a different nagel style, with the fluted surface. (To be honest, I actually like the Balaur arms style one more than the Albion there. that style always looks great) but they could've easily gone in very different directions - a "thorn" style nagel, which is narrower, would give a very different appearance, and given the "button" ends on the cross, an integral side-ring instead of a nagel is a fashion which is found on extant examples of crosses with those button finials. That could have been used to create a 100% historically accurate representation which is dramatically different to the Albion. Alternatively, if they wanted to go into the 15th century, they could've gone for a totally different style of cross altogether, and made one that was asymmetric, with a knuckle-bow. Just that sort of change would've completely changed the overall "feel" of the weapon again. Each of those steps, of detail and design could've created something which had similar dimensions, but dramatically different appearance, which wasn't copying off the Albion. And there's dozens of other different steps they could've taken - the amount of curvature of the blade - could've been more exaggerated if this was forged, could've been done much straighter if if was stock removal. For a straighter blade, you could've gone from a type 5a profile, where the blade sweeps upward to the point, to a type 5b, where the false edge droops down, making a more conventional sword-like profile. You could go for the asymmetric cross with a knuckle-bow, you could've gone for a twisted pattern as they did, but with a side ring instead of nagel. or a very narrow nagel. They could've had a smaller flatter pommel cap, or they could've gone really wild, and gone for a rounder "flaring" grip and had it bound in leather - not many people are doing leather covered messers, but we know plenty weren't bare wood. All of those options would've created a kriegsmesser that was 100% within the realms of historical examples, but wasn't cribbed from Peter's design. I hope that gives you an idea of how you could design a new model which was completely different in every detail way (in multiple different ways!) while still being one of the same "group" or "family" of arms.
@@sinisterswordsman25 The design of the blade of the Knecht is based on several different original messers that I have studied in person. The design borrows elements from a number of specific originals. There is however not a single original messer that looks just like it. It is a distillate of my studies. Hence the design is my own and Albion Swords has the exclusive right to manufacture and sell this design. It is therefore remarkable that several other messers on the market are now direct copies of my design or very close versions - so close that their design could not be explained in any way other than that they are based on my work or simply copying it. -Those are all cases of plagiarism. If these makers would do their own research or base their designs on their own understanding of the messer, you would se a greater variation in designs on the market. Original messers come in a fantastic variation of form, size and dimensions: more or less curve, different proportions between blade and hilt length, with short or wide guards, without any fullers or many parallel grooves, with simple hilt components or very luxurious. If other makers wish to make a Kriegs messer there is no shortage of original material to be inspired by. As it is now there must be a half dozen more or less plagiarised versions of the Knecht being marketed. That is a sad situation that only speak of laziness, lack of imagination and total disregard for the value of original research and design.
Jon from Unsheathed here: This was an excellent review gentlemen! The journalistic aspect was particularly well done. You tackled what is a serious and somewhat emotionally laden topic with a balanced and respectful review of the facts. Well done! The variability of the sharpening is unfortunate. We did not have nearly the issue that you did with the consistency of the edge, so it seems there is some work to be done in QC. Even at this price point I don't think an evenly sharpened edge is too much to ask for. Excellent review!
@@alientude I think you did it perfectly. Also. I appreciate the fact that you stated your own opinion on the matter while still respecting those of others, particularly Mr. Johnson - who clearly has the biggest dog in the fight. Again, really well done.
Spectacular review Kyle and Kane! This was a very complicated sword to properly describe but I feel that you have done the subject justice and allowed everyone the chance to weigh in and share their side of the story. Excellent comparison and overview as always. Love to see how far your videos have come.
Great review, Kyle and Kane. You handled a nuanced situation quite well. Between this review, Unsheathed, and Matt Jensen, I feel almost spoiled by the amount of info and feedback we have for this model. I'm also excited to see what BA comes up with for the replacement design.
Plagarism is bad, mkay. I get it. But this isn't taking money from Albion. Its not like im taking my money that I would spend on Albion and am getting this instead. Albion wont make me a Knecht, so if I want one my only options are a highly marked up and rare secondary market, or a Coldsteel. Ill be making a preorder for the next run of these for sure, and wont feel guilty about it. Honestly there's no reason Albion should be limiting their production runs so much, id much rather have a Knecht
Almost nobody can get a knecht or could afford one even when they were available. I've wanted one ever since I first saw one years ago but couldn't get one & I didn't like any of the grosse messer blade Profiles so having a couple companies make kriegsmessers with exceedingly similar blade profiles to the knecht that are far more affordable & available but still decent make for a very happy Barron. I have one of the Cold Steel kriegsmessers & aesthetically I like the squared off quillons better than the rounded ones of the knecht & the balaur ones are a bit more ornate than I like, but that's just looks, I haven't got to try the others so for feel I have no idea.
I'd still love to see the pommel and Nagel secured a bit better on this model, maybe the fit of the crossfuard tightened up a bit too. I'd honestly take improvements like those over a Scabbard any day.
While I agree they look similar I do have to think about how similar historical Messer's could look to one another. The BA does differentiate itself from the Albion in the quillions. Also the CS version & the Landsknecht Emporium ROTMILAN TYPE M3D+ look a lot like like the Albion; although each has subtle differences. So I understand the designers feeling their design was copied. But I also have to say that I feel unless the Albion design is significantly different from historical designs to be considered unique then it should bee seen as a copy of a template which, unfortunately, anyone can copy.
The Next Generation line that I have designed for Albion are all examples of swords that are created with elements from several different originals. Each model is faithful to typical features you see in originals of that type but there is not a single original sword that looks exactly like any of the Next generation swords. If I have in any way managed to capture the essence of the originals I base my work on, that is I think a quality feature that is unique and important for the swords that Albion manufacture. If designer manages to design something that looks like a classic representative of a type, it does not mean that the design is generic, featureless or lacking in originality but quite the opposite. It is the result of dedicated work, original research and dedicated design efforts. If you see other makers offer a sword that is very similar to one of the Albion swords I have designed, it is a case of plagiarism. That it is very common does not make it right. There are hundreds, even thousands of original historical swords that can be studied and be the basis for new products. When makers express their own aesthetic ideals and create products that are the result of their own insights you will not see cookie cutter versions of Albion swords (or any other original creators work) sold at a lower price. You will see a market that is rich with different options at different price points. That is a healthy market.
@@peterjohnsson557 well thank you VERY much for responding. As I am no expert in historical messers I hope my statement was clear that I just didn't know enough to form a solid opinion. But as I do trust your experience in the subject then I can agree that you did & do have a right to ask that the design be halted. I doubt I'll ever have the $ to afford more than 1 Albion & it likely won't be a messer. Not knowing the BA & CS were copies of your design not of a known historical example I had considered getting the BA if I could save the money. But now I will not do so unless a redesign is made available out of respect for you & the fact you took time to reply to me; especially since I am a very small player in sword UA-cam. Thank you for your time & reply I wish you the best in your future endeavors.
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 Thank you for understanding. I would just like to make one thing very clear: I have not asked to have the sale of the Balaur arms Kriegs messer to be halted. I have merely pointed out that it is a case of plagiarism. David Weiss of Cult of Athena showed great moral integrity in deciding on his own accord that it did not go along with his vision of what his company was all about. I am impressed by his decision and acting in all of this. The reason I make my voice heard is that I hope to spread awareness among sword enthusiasts that plagiarism coms at a cost that is payed by those that do original research and design. If you care about a lively and healthy sword market, as a customer it would be smart to not applaud knock offs too readily. They are cheap because someone else have done the hard work. Buying the cheap knock offs means that you make it less possible for dedicated creators to develop original work.
@@peterjohnsson557I will admit, one gripe I have personally with Albion that is in no way discrediting to your work is how they limit some of their swords to only a certain length of time to be bought, which means some people who wish to experience these swords for themselves are locked out of the chance to own one of these entirely. I do believe that it is plagiarism and rather unfortunate, however at the same time I do think since Albion has no intention on bringing back the design so far as we know, the only chance me and some other customers have at getting something similar would be swords such as this one or the Landsknecht Emporium (of which is its own design) I do think that the differences between the Balaur arms version lend itself to a slightly more original design than that of the Cold Steel Version, however that is but my opinion
That is not how IP law works. Copyright does not protect things like this (i.e the practical design of an object) and claiming that it is "theft", which is a completely different crime, is a joke. The fact that this sword also handles very differently and that there is at least 2 other swords that have a similar looking blade makes this a big nothing burger.
i believe the statement from KOA is genuine. while the ideal solution would've been to halt sales, it's not financially feasible for KOA and their choice of actions really is the best it gets. you rarely see a retailer act so honestly and transparently.
@@alientude hi, i am near Solingen, Germany....i am afraid that a Kriegsmesser from Landsknecht Emporium will be at least 1100€ for me...of course there are other swordmakers but i am really interested in the Balaur Arms blades in general. tomorrow going to a big german knife fair in Solingen....Albion will be there...saving up for quite some time for this:) wish me luck! ;)
these swords almost make the perfect sidearm for citizen militias the only design that I don't like personally is the nail on the side it makes the whole thing straightly right handed
How much variation should one expect between swords based on the same historical examples? I'm sure there are variations on the source material that Albion has, and maybe Balor copied some of those variations, but as an unbiased 3rd party, I agree that this seems different enough. Especially in the waisting and weight distribution, and the decorative differences are obvious. I personally prefer the Albion hilt design aesthetic, but I think I resonate with the blade dynamics of the Balor. The Balor twisted cord quillions look really awful to me. I assumed at first glance that this was a fluted square that was twisted, but seeing it closer, I realized they are four individual bars, twisted and welded together, and welded to the guard. That seems like a horrible idea, to me, a novice. And it seems strikingly different from the Albion, as it shares only the loose silhouette, in my view. I could absolutely create that silhouette overlay for you, btw, if you still want it. I just need two photos with any contrasted background like a towel, blanket, your grass turf, etc. I have the beta for Photoshop, and it will actually cut the image out automatically with their new coming update. Very quick and easy.
Restating: I'm a sword novice. I'm also not particularly rigid about adhering to historical sources. I absolutely don't expect anyone to see my opinion as somehow "right" but just my point of view, which may be entirely "wrong."
Honestly I’m shocked by the attitude of Peter Johnsson. Shutting down the production of a sword line inspired by his work? That’s not a defense of the Sword community, that’s a defense of the monopoly of his business on sword design. Naked self centered promotionalism. Loss of respect
It's quite a stretch to say that him complaining about his work being plagiarized is equivalent to him shutting down the production of sword (which he has no power to do)
Peter is absolutely right in his complaining that it is based on the Albion model - there are a whole bunch of kreigsmesser "out there" in museums etc, but critically, none of them look like the Knecht - its combination of nagel group, cross style, pommel form, blade section and profile type were unique to the Albion model - it is an original design he made. The balaur arms model, and the Cold Steel model have both directly riffed off the Knecht as their source, instead of the extant archaeology. Furthermore, saying he's "shut down the production line" is absolute nonsense - not only does he not have such powers, but this was not even the thrust of the discussion about this piece - and the announcement to close production after 2023 was completely unexpected. The model being pulled has been David Weiss / Kult of Athena's choice, and his choice alone, once he learnt that it is a copy. Peter has absolutely no say in that choice, but what David Weiss has done shows his respect of original designers' work, his integrity, his honesty and transparency, and in my opinion, shows him to be a man of the very finest calibre. More importantly still, Albion is not Peter's company - he is simply a consultant designer for them - and Albion's model is no longer in production. He, and Albion are set to lose exactly zero dollars financially from this model's sale. This has absolutely nothing to do with monopolies, and nothing to do with promotion. It is specifically about Peter's right to identify as the designer of a model, and Albion's right as the manufacturer of the model to both object to other companies plagiarising it. David has stated a new model will be made available in 2024. If they want me to, I will be doing my utmost to assist in that process to ensure that a new model is unique in every detail. We'll see if they take up the offer I have made to that effect - I've offered that design consultancy work to David for no personal reward - I've done so to thank him for the integrity he's shown towards Peter's rights. Far from "defense of monopoly", this fuss will mean that as of next year, there should be a new kreigsmesser model of a different style, offering the customers more choice, more variation in the messer market. This is a net gain for all collectors.
@@j.g.elmslie9901 If he didn't object to their production then why complain at all, if he had nothing to lose from it as you claim. If he wanted attribution, then ask for attribution. The net effect is the disruption of the production by the use of his influence, and this one did not have to be stopped for them to produce another. Clearly not a net gain. Instead of being proud of how his work has influenced the sword community and allowing it to be used as a model for mid-level reproduction (one that he could not have legally stopped by the way) and made more accessible to more people, he objected because he wanted the credit. Not impressed.
I understand every one trying to get this sword canceled it's because you already own one please keep your big nose out of it. Some of us don't have one yet.
Thank you for this thorough reflection of the Knecht and Balaur Kriegsmesser.
I would like to use this opportunity to say that I am impressed by the integrity and honesty of David Weiss of Cult of Athena in the way he acts in this individual case and how he engages with the sword community, makers and customers all. We would have a very different market for swords if more actors were of his caliber.
Thank you. I was very impressed with David's response as well.
I'm absolutely stunned and happy to see the response too, that statement shows the integrity of the man there in ways I really didnt expect. So much so, that, if they intend to produce a new model for 2024, I am very much inclined to help out with that in providing source material so they can design something that is both unique, and doesn't impinge on your design work.
I'm curious what exactly is it that crosses the line? They are obviously very very similar. And the knecht is an original design based on historical examples. So you have a point, its pretty suspect to make something almost identical. However There are really only so many ways to design an effective sword that "looks like a knecht" meaning the same type, I guess.(I'm not familiar with messer typology) The knecht is legendary for a reason, it looks really damn cool, and cuts extremely well. My point is if the designers of the swords that inspired the knecht could see it maybe they would take issue with some similarities? With all due respect of course, I'm just curious. Is the sword just to similar in to many different aspects?
P.s
Huge fan of your work! Swords probably wouldn't be what they are today without you. Your work with Albion basically set a new standard for swords, I really can't thank you enough. Also I hope you're ok with people buying the remaining BA version because I can't afford a knecht 😅
@@sinisterswordsman25 Hope you wont mind me chipping in with my point of view, as someone who's studied messers extensively, and also makes stuff, so I can look at it from detail and manufacture sides. I can also give a point of view without any bias, as I don't have any connection to Albion. I also apologise for the LONG reply...
you're absolutely right that there are only so many ways - single-edged blade, cross with a nagel, wood grips with pins and small pommel cap is pretty much the archetype of the messer, and that cant easily be changed. But the problem is the details -
First, overall form - the same blade profile simplified, (it misses the little "step" on the spine that makes the Knecht's blade a Type 4b, going by the typology work.) but also its done on thinner stock (a thinner blade = cheaper raw material cost - only a few dollars/pounds/yuan, but when you're making a thousand, it all adds up!)
There's physical dimensions which are uncomfortably close. For example, the fuller length being 59.7 and 59.7cm, matching identically, the blade thickness at the cross being 4.34 vs 4.30mm - the width of the cross being 25.1cm vs 25.7 cm, the hilt length of 22.7 cs 23.0cm. Each of these are just too similar for it to be a coincidence.
to give you an example, I have another (original) kriegsmesser here in front of me as I type. I cant tell you the exact blade length because the tip is broken off. but, the fuller length is at least 77cm - the length the blade is broken at - I estimate the blade would've been about 85-90cm long originally, so a tiny bit longer than the Albion or Balaur designs. Yet the cross is 14cm wide, the hilt 16cm long. So dimensions which are dramatically different. I'd expect other messers to have similar gross variations in size - a much longer or smaller hilt, etc.
So the fact is that in profile, if you were to do silhouette drawings, they are so similar becomes the big issue there. They did the right thing in creating a differently decorated cross, with the twisted spiral shapes, and the bulbous "button" tips. The problem in my eye is that they did so, copying the Knecht's overall proportions much too closely, and they didn't take the effort to continue those differences in the other principal areas of the design.
There are so many details they could've done to make something different. the obvious example would be the blade. the point of balance is a little bit close to the cross, giving it less "authority" in the cut right now. They could've flared the blade out about 25cm from the tip, making that a false edge, giving it a broader, wider section (called a yelman), turning the blade into a Type 4c. that would've dramatically changed the profile for just a little bit of work. They could've gone for a Type 3d blade with a clip-point scalloped out at the tip. That would've again made a dramatic change to the overall style.
Because the balance point is much closer to the cross, they could've gone for a completely different style of pommel. instead of the really quite rough impression of a form CC1 pommel, they could've easily gone for a flattened "dish" shape plate (Form DD) which would've had less mass, moving the balance point a little forward. that would've made a huge difference to the overall look and similarity there, even if the grip was fundamentally the same length as the Albion.
Given the cross shape, they have made some effort to make a different nagel style, with the fluted surface. (To be honest, I actually like the Balaur arms style one more than the Albion there. that style always looks great) but they could've easily gone in very different directions - a "thorn" style nagel, which is narrower, would give a very different appearance, and given the "button" ends on the cross, an integral side-ring instead of a nagel is a fashion which is found on extant examples of crosses with those button finials. That could have been used to create a 100% historically accurate representation which is dramatically different to the Albion. Alternatively, if they wanted to go into the 15th century, they could've gone for a totally different style of cross altogether, and made one that was asymmetric, with a knuckle-bow. Just that sort of change would've completely changed the overall "feel" of the weapon again.
Each of those steps, of detail and design could've created something which had similar dimensions, but dramatically different appearance, which wasn't copying off the Albion. And there's dozens of other different steps they could've taken - the amount of curvature of the blade - could've been more exaggerated if this was forged, could've been done much straighter if if was stock removal. For a straighter blade, you could've gone from a type 5a profile, where the blade sweeps upward to the point, to a type 5b, where the false edge droops down, making a more conventional sword-like profile. You could go for the asymmetric cross with a knuckle-bow, you could've gone for a twisted pattern as they did, but with a side ring instead of nagel. or a very narrow nagel. They could've had a smaller flatter pommel cap, or they could've gone really wild, and gone for a rounder "flaring" grip and had it bound in leather - not many people are doing leather covered messers, but we know plenty weren't bare wood. All of those options would've created a kriegsmesser that was 100% within the realms of historical examples, but wasn't cribbed from Peter's design.
I hope that gives you an idea of how you could design a new model which was completely different in every detail way (in multiple different ways!) while still being one of the same "group" or "family" of arms.
@@sinisterswordsman25 The design of the blade of the Knecht is based on several different original messers that I have studied in person. The design borrows elements from a number of specific originals. There is however not a single original messer that looks just like it. It is a distillate of my studies. Hence the design is my own and Albion Swords has the exclusive right to manufacture and sell this design.
It is therefore remarkable that several other messers on the market are now direct copies of my design or very close versions - so close that their design could not be explained in any way other than that they are based on my work or simply copying it.
-Those are all cases of plagiarism.
If these makers would do their own research or base their designs on their own understanding of the messer, you would se a greater variation in designs on the market. Original messers come in a fantastic variation of form, size and dimensions: more or less curve, different proportions between blade and hilt length, with short or wide guards, without any fullers or many parallel grooves, with simple hilt components or very luxurious. If other makers wish to make a Kriegs messer there is no shortage of original material to be inspired by.
As it is now there must be a half dozen more or less plagiarised versions of the Knecht being marketed. That is a sad situation that only speak of laziness, lack of imagination and total disregard for the value of original research and design.
Jon from Unsheathed here:
This was an excellent review gentlemen! The journalistic aspect was particularly well done. You tackled what is a serious and somewhat emotionally laden topic with a balanced and respectful review of the facts. Well done!
The variability of the sharpening is unfortunate. We did not have nearly the issue that you did with the consistency of the edge, so it seems there is some work to be done in QC. Even at this price point I don't think an evenly sharpened edge is too much to ask for.
Excellent review!
Thanks! I appreciate the kind words. I absolutely did not want to present only one side or for it to feel like I was piling on Kult of Athena.
@@alientude I think you did it perfectly. Also. I appreciate the fact that you stated your own opinion on the matter while still respecting those of others, particularly Mr. Johnson - who clearly has the biggest dog in the fight.
Again, really well done.
The Albion Knecht isn’t even in production anymore. How can Albion claim this plagiarism harms them when they won’t bother selling their version?
Spectacular review Kyle and Kane! This was a very complicated sword to properly describe but I feel that you have done the subject justice and allowed everyone the chance to weigh in and share their side of the story. Excellent comparison and overview as always. Love to see how far your videos have come.
Thank you! Lot of work went into this one, that's for sure!
Great review, Kyle and Kane. You handled a nuanced situation quite well. Between this review, Unsheathed, and Matt Jensen, I feel almost spoiled by the amount of info and feedback we have for this model.
I'm also excited to see what BA comes up with for the replacement design.
Make sure you check out Kane's channel for even more! He's releasing his review this afternoon, pending UA-cam processing his video.
Plagarism is bad, mkay. I get it. But this isn't taking money from Albion. Its not like im taking my money that I would spend on Albion and am getting this instead. Albion wont make me a Knecht, so if I want one my only options are a highly marked up and rare secondary market, or a Coldsteel.
Ill be making a preorder for the next run of these for sure, and wont feel guilty about it. Honestly there's no reason Albion should be limiting their production runs so much, id much rather have a Knecht
Almost nobody can get a knecht or could afford one even when they were available. I've wanted one ever since I first saw one years ago but couldn't get one & I didn't like any of the grosse messer blade Profiles so having a couple companies make kriegsmessers with exceedingly similar blade profiles to the knecht that are far more affordable & available but still decent make for a very happy Barron.
I have one of the Cold Steel kriegsmessers & aesthetically I like the squared off quillons better than the rounded ones of the knecht & the balaur ones are a bit more ornate than I like, but that's just looks, I haven't got to try the others so for feel I have no idea.
I'd still love to see the pommel and Nagel secured a bit better on this model, maybe the fit of the crossfuard tightened up a bit too. I'd honestly take improvements like those over a Scabbard any day.
Hopefully they'll take Matthew Jensen's feedback about keying the pommel and nagel into account when they design the next one.
does the point alined with the back makes thrusting difficult/ less effective?
While I agree they look similar I do have to think about how similar historical Messer's could look to one another. The BA does differentiate itself from the Albion in the quillions. Also the CS version & the Landsknecht Emporium ROTMILAN TYPE M3D+ look a lot like like the Albion; although each has subtle differences.
So I understand the designers feeling their design was copied. But I also have to say that I feel unless the Albion design is significantly different from historical designs to be considered unique then it should bee seen as a copy of a template which, unfortunately, anyone can copy.
The Next Generation line that I have designed for Albion are all examples of swords that are created with elements from several different originals. Each model is faithful to typical features you see in originals of that type but there is not a single original sword that looks exactly like any of the Next generation swords.
If I have in any way managed to capture the essence of the originals I base my work on, that is I think a quality feature that is unique and important for the swords that Albion manufacture.
If designer manages to design something that looks like a classic representative of a type, it does not mean that the design is generic, featureless or lacking in originality but quite the opposite. It is the result of dedicated work, original research and dedicated design efforts.
If you see other makers offer a sword that is very similar to one of the Albion swords I have designed, it is a case of plagiarism. That it is very common does not make it right.
There are hundreds, even thousands of original historical swords that can be studied and be the basis for new products. When makers express their own aesthetic ideals and create products that are the result of their own insights you will not see cookie cutter versions of Albion swords (or any other original creators work) sold at a lower price.
You will see a market that is rich with different options at different price points. That is a healthy market.
@@peterjohnsson557 well thank you VERY much for responding. As I am no expert in historical messers I hope my statement was clear that I just didn't know enough to form a solid opinion.
But as I do trust your experience in the subject then I can agree that you did & do have a right to ask that the design be halted.
I doubt I'll ever have the $ to afford more than 1 Albion & it likely won't be a messer. Not knowing the BA & CS were copies of your design not of a known historical example I had considered getting the BA if I could save the money.
But now I will not do so unless a redesign is made available out of respect for you & the fact you took time to reply to me; especially since I am a very small player in sword UA-cam.
Thank you for your time & reply I wish you the best in your future endeavors.
@@asa-punkatsouthvinland7145 Thank you for understanding. I would just like to make one thing very clear: I have not asked to have the sale of the Balaur arms Kriegs messer to be halted. I have merely pointed out that it is a case of plagiarism.
David Weiss of Cult of Athena showed great moral integrity in deciding on his own accord that it did not go along with his vision of what his company was all about. I am impressed by his decision and acting in all of this.
The reason I make my voice heard is that I hope to spread awareness among sword enthusiasts that plagiarism coms at a cost that is payed by those that do original research and design.
If you care about a lively and healthy sword market, as a customer it would be smart to not applaud knock offs too readily. They are cheap because someone else have done the hard work. Buying the cheap knock offs means that you make it less possible for dedicated creators to develop original work.
@@peterjohnsson557I will admit, one gripe I have personally with Albion that is in no way discrediting to your work is how they limit some of their swords to only a certain length of time to be bought, which means some people who wish to experience these swords for themselves are locked out of the chance to own one of these entirely.
I do believe that it is plagiarism and rather unfortunate, however at the same time I do think since Albion has no intention on bringing back the design so far as we know, the only chance me and some other customers have at getting something similar would be swords such as this one or the Landsknecht Emporium (of which is its own design)
I do think that the differences between the Balaur arms version lend itself to a slightly more original design than that of the Cold Steel Version, however that is but my opinion
That is not how IP law works. Copyright does not protect things like this (i.e the practical design of an object) and claiming that it is "theft", which is a completely different crime, is a joke. The fact that this sword also handles very differently and that there is at least 2 other swords that have a similar looking blade makes this a big nothing burger.
i believe the statement from KOA is genuine. while the ideal solution would've been to halt sales, it's not financially feasible for KOA and their choice of actions really is the best it gets. you rarely see a retailer act so honestly and transparently.
Agreed!
hi Kyle! i want one of those sooo bad😅 sadly the import taxes and shipping costs will almost double the price...another nice Review!
Import fees and international shipping are such a downer to sword collectors! Are you in Europe? If so, is Landsknecht Emporium more affordable?
@@alientude hi, i am near Solingen, Germany....i am afraid that a Kriegsmesser from Landsknecht Emporium will be at least 1100€ for me...of course there are other swordmakers but i am really interested in the Balaur Arms blades in general. tomorrow going to a big german knife fair in Solingen....Albion will be there...saving up for quite some time for this:) wish me luck! ;)
@@TheCrusader1099 I saw a picture today of the setup Albion has. Lots of great swords! Hope you score something.
@@alientude sooo back from the fair....bought a "gaddhjalt " from Mike! nice guy and an amazing sword! 😯😊
@@TheCrusader1099 That's awesome! Mike is a great guy.
these swords almost make the perfect sidearm for citizen militias the only design that I don't like personally is the nail on the side it makes the whole thing straightly right handed
How much variation should one expect between swords based on the same historical examples?
I'm sure there are variations on the source material that Albion has, and maybe Balor copied some of those variations, but as an unbiased 3rd party, I agree that this seems different enough. Especially in the waisting and weight distribution, and the decorative differences are obvious.
I personally prefer the Albion hilt design aesthetic, but I think I resonate with the blade dynamics of the Balor. The Balor twisted cord quillions look really awful to me. I assumed at first glance that this was a fluted square that was twisted, but seeing it closer, I realized they are four individual bars, twisted and welded together, and welded to the guard. That seems like a horrible idea, to me, a novice. And it seems strikingly different from the Albion, as it shares only the loose silhouette, in my view.
I could absolutely create that silhouette overlay for you, btw, if you still want it. I just need two photos with any contrasted background like a towel, blanket, your grass turf, etc. I have the beta for Photoshop, and it will actually cut the image out automatically with their new coming update. Very quick and easy.
Restating: I'm a sword novice. I'm also not particularly rigid about adhering to historical sources. I absolutely don't expect anyone to see my opinion as somehow "right" but just my point of view, which may be entirely "wrong."
I wonder what's going to happen with the Cold Steel kriegsmesser since that is an even more blatant copy of the knecht.
As much money as Kane spends...could he please spring for a decent mic???
Honestly I’m shocked by the attitude of Peter Johnsson. Shutting down the production of a sword line inspired by his work? That’s not a defense of the Sword community, that’s a defense of the monopoly of his business on sword design. Naked self centered promotionalism. Loss of respect
It's quite a stretch to say that him complaining about his work being plagiarized is equivalent to him shutting down the production of sword (which he has no power to do)
Peter is absolutely right in his complaining that it is based on the Albion model - there are a whole bunch of kreigsmesser "out there" in museums etc, but critically, none of them look like the Knecht - its combination of nagel group, cross style, pommel form, blade section and profile type were unique to the Albion model - it is an original design he made. The balaur arms model, and the Cold Steel model have both directly riffed off the Knecht as their source, instead of the extant archaeology.
Furthermore, saying he's "shut down the production line" is absolute nonsense - not only does he not have such powers, but this was not even the thrust of the discussion about this piece - and the announcement to close production after 2023 was completely unexpected. The model being pulled has been David Weiss / Kult of Athena's choice, and his choice alone, once he learnt that it is a copy. Peter has absolutely no say in that choice, but what David Weiss has done shows his respect of original designers' work, his integrity, his honesty and transparency, and in my opinion, shows him to be a man of the very finest calibre.
More importantly still, Albion is not Peter's company - he is simply a consultant designer for them - and Albion's model is no longer in production. He, and Albion are set to lose exactly zero dollars financially from this model's sale. This has absolutely nothing to do with monopolies, and nothing to do with promotion. It is specifically about Peter's right to identify as the designer of a model, and Albion's right as the manufacturer of the model to both object to other companies plagiarising it.
David has stated a new model will be made available in 2024. If they want me to, I will be doing my utmost to assist in that process to ensure that a new model is unique in every detail. We'll see if they take up the offer I have made to that effect - I've offered that design consultancy work to David for no personal reward - I've done so to thank him for the integrity he's shown towards Peter's rights. Far from "defense of monopoly", this fuss will mean that as of next year, there should be a new kreigsmesser model of a different style, offering the customers more choice, more variation in the messer market. This is a net gain for all collectors.
@@j.g.elmslie9901 If he didn't object to their production then why complain at all, if he had nothing to lose from it as you claim. If he wanted attribution, then ask for attribution. The net effect is the disruption of the production by the use of his influence, and this one did not have to be stopped for them to produce another. Clearly not a net gain. Instead of being proud of how his work has influenced the sword community and allowing it to be used as a model for mid-level reproduction (one that he could not have legally stopped by the way) and made more accessible to more people, he objected because he wanted the credit. Not impressed.
I understand every one trying to get this sword canceled it's because you already own one please keep your big nose out of it. Some of us don't have one yet.
In my opinion it looks and out handles the Albion