Valid and very important point, alas poorly demonstrated. By the way una corda stands for "one string" in Italian indicating that only one string is struck, which was the case on the pianoforte. In the modern piano this is no longer the case because compared to the pianoforte the modern piano in most cases has 3 vs 2 strings per note. The name stuck though. And considering the tonal change function is still essentially the same (well done for pointing that out in the video, most people only mention the sound becoming "quieter" with the uc pedal!) it's not exactly a far fetched adoption. The real key difference between the upright and grand is the action and the frame design. In other words, it's only the key components that make up the essence of the instrument:) Firstly: the uprights (no matter how well made) always have an element of sounding boxy because....you guessed it, they're essentially a box! The frame of a grand piano is a much more cohesive unit, the bent single piece rim (possibly 2 piece in some older designs) makes it much easier to build a far more solid structure that won't distort and rattle at high volumes and will project properly. Secondly: the action is SO different as to how it actually functions that based on this fact alone I am always entirely perplexed as to how the upright is considered the same instrument as a grand. The grand action is gravity driven and upright action is gravity + string driven. Yes there's a spring inside a grand action performing some functions to help repetition, but fundamentally it's a gravity driven mechanism. The ultimate result of a fully gravity driven action is that the contact with the hammer is not lost half way through the blow (as in an upright), but only at the very last moment before the hammer strikes the string (let off). In other words with the upright piano action the hammer essentially runs away from you under inertia almost as soon as you start depressing the key making any kind of delicate control basically impossible. That's why one of the first things people notice on an upright action when comparing to a grand is how difficult it is to play softly. Thirdly: the upright action does not have double escapement. Proper repetition is physically not possible on an upright meaning even further loss of control during a key element of piano playing aka replaying the same note reasonably quickly. On an upright you physically can't replay a note inside the key's travel, which is a technique that provides for true control (and really is the way vast quantities of music are actually meant to be played, especially the romantic repertoire and beyond). When you sum it all up these are not two types of the same instrument, they are vastly different instruments - one of them (in my humble opinion) being pretty much unfit for purpose, especially if your purpose is playing what is referred to as classical music...which is also an inexplicable ubiquitous misnomer that simply won't go away, but I digress... The best you could ever say for the upright is that it kind of sounds alike a piano and it can be used for popular music or jazz, or any piano music that doesn't require a significant degree of finesse or sophistication for delivery.
On my grand piano and any other grand I've played, the una corda pedal allows the hammers to strike two of the three strings, not one. The main reason I prefer to play a grand piano is the feel of the action, which is completely different from that of an upright.
@@alanclarkeau It's a matter of regulation. They can be set up all ways. If it moves the strings to a different part of the hammer then the una corda can be voiced separately.
Very clear, and well presented! You could also mention that the grand piano action is a bit more sensitive/responsive, because it require less "linkage" between the key and the hammer, since the action doesn't have to change the direction of force (key goes up & down, so does the hammer) - in an upright, of course, the key goes up & down, but that motion must be first changed to fore & aft for the hammers to strike strings lying on a *vertical* plane. And it requires a backcheck, bridle and bridle tape that the grand piano doesn't need (which allows the grand to be just a tad more responsive).
I wish i Had the old upright piano I grew up with and learned to play on. My parents were moving and had to sale it because of down sizing. I had no place to put a piano at the time. I loved that old piano . It was a Voce and sons its sounded so good. I just hate seeing people letting them old uprights go to the ruins. I would love to have a grand piano but dont have the space for one. I only have an upright one now.
@johnbusy86 Absolutely. On a horizontally strung piano you can repeat a single note more times per second than you can on a piano-forte that is vertically strung. .
I actually prefer the left pedal on an upright because it just changes the incline but still hits all the snares per note, so there's no change in the 'width' of the sound stemming from minute differences in overtones between the strings. On the other hand, I rarely use the una corda pedal at all, my first piano teacher strongly discouraged his students to, unless the score explicitly calls for it.
You forgot that the hammers on a grand get pushed upward instead of horizonal on an upright so the control is better. Also longer string length decreases inharmonicity. I like my spinet tho with hella inharmonicity. I think it sounds very complex and tone rich. I think the una corda on a grand sounds beautiful. It changes the balance with the bass louder and the mid and treble softer, also with a purer sound.
Una corda allows only one string BUT the other strings of the struck string resonates. That is why there is a difference in sound between the grand and the upright.
A good upright is always better than a BAD grand but generally a good grand will outperform an upright UNLESS the grand is shorter than the upright in which case the grand will have worse bass tone which means, screw the grand, upright is going to sound better and therefore will be nicer to play.
I agree. There truly are some arguments for an upright. It depends on quality, as you mention. I personally am very happy with my Yamaha YUS 5 upright. The bass is not that clear as it were in a concert grand, of course, but my upright outplays so many "baby grands" as I have much longer strings. And: For the performer it may sound even louder than a grand piano, for it has some hidden sound holes right in front of one's face. The dynamic range is outstanding.
@@oneirdaathnaram1376 Yeah, Yamaha uprights in general are very nice. I actually like the Yamaha P22 surprisingly enough, I played one with exceptional voicing and good bass tone from Piedmont Piano Company. Even a short upright can outperform a grand in some circumstances.
There was one aspect you missed, on the grand gravity makes the hammer drop quicker, this means the speed of repetition on a note is far enhanced on a grand, this create also a far smoother, quicker and effortless tremolo
Didn't explain there is such a thing as upright grands, which are essentially uprights with a sostenuto pedal like the Kawai K80 Upright Grand my wife has owned for years.
I enjoyed your video. You have probably upset a few people who own an upright, even if what you have said is true. To my ears an upright piano and a grand piano have quite a different sound and when playing each one they feel different. The design of an upright prevents it from being a grand. Space was the main factor in its design. A high quality upright piano will sound close to a grand and that is all you can hope for.
My upright concert grand could put a lot of baby grands to shame. Mine did sound like a concert grand. I had a tall upright. It weighed 900 lbs when it was moved years ago. I would not buy any upright if the action doesn't have stickers in the action. They eliminated them to make studio uprights as know as practice pianos which are shorter uprights. I sure miss my old HP Nelson upright concert grand piano. But the Florida humidity did it in when we moved to Florida. As for the action it was not too heavy or too light it was like most grand actions when playing. I know the difference in design. 73
Absolutely no. Nothing wrong with a good upright, but there is no comparison to a grand piano. Over the years they have almost become different instruments to me. And 5'10 or larger for grands.
So-called "grand" pianos have better "repetition" than an upright. I would consider that to be the main advantage. On a "grand" piano you can repeat a single note more times per second than on an upright.. Retail piano merchants, by mislabeling them, are responsible for most of the confusion that people have between grands and uprights. Grand is the word in French for the English word large. The phase "baby grand" is therefore not only a misnomer, but is a ridiculous contradiction of terms. The 2 basic kinds of pianos we have are more properly called horizontal pianos and vertical pianos, according the way their strings, their cast iron plate if they have one, their pinblock, and their soundboard are arranged - either horizontally or vertically. Also, the word "piano" is itself a misnomer. These marvellous struck-string instruments play both piano _and_ forte. They are so much more capable than the word _piano_ makes them out to be.
FYI, in French a grand piano is "un piano à queue" - a piano with a tail - and an upright is "un piano droit" - a straight piano. A baby grand is called "un crapaud" - a toad piano. German is more poetic: the grand piano is "einer Flügel" - a wing, while an upright is "eines Klavier" - a keyboard. Edit: I forgot: "un grand piano" can be said in French. But a French person will understand you are talking about a LARGE piano, which could be either an upright or a grand - both come in smaller or larger sizes.
You are saying that the upright might be bigger than a baby grand, but it sounds worse. I agree, but you are not explaining why, so your clip is quite useless.
It is a fact that a lot of grands have more pedals compared to other pianos, but it is also true that they do not constitute the majority. It is a design tradition among big-name manufacturers to include three pedals, but the truth is that the third one is unnecessary as its properties can be readily replicated by the other two.
my mason and risch console has the middle pedal that dampers the low end of the keyboard only. do many verticals have this. it also has ivory keys, it was a piano built in toronto in 1954
Most older uprights have bass sustain as its middle pedal. At least, it makes the pedal do something. The mute middle pedal like the one in the video came much later around the 2000s.
Valid and very important point, alas poorly demonstrated.
By the way una corda stands for "one string" in Italian indicating that only one string is struck, which was the case on the pianoforte. In the modern piano this is no longer the case because compared to the pianoforte the modern piano in most cases has 3 vs 2 strings per note. The name stuck though. And considering the tonal change function is still essentially the same (well done for pointing that out in the video, most people only mention the sound becoming "quieter" with the uc pedal!) it's not exactly a far fetched adoption.
The real key difference between the upright and grand is the action and the frame design. In other words, it's only the key components that make up the essence of the instrument:)
Firstly: the uprights (no matter how well made) always have an element of sounding boxy because....you guessed it, they're essentially a box! The frame of a grand piano is a much more cohesive unit, the bent single piece rim (possibly 2 piece in some older designs) makes it much easier to build a far more solid structure that won't distort and rattle at high volumes and will project properly.
Secondly: the action is SO different as to how it actually functions that based on this fact alone I am always entirely perplexed as to how the upright is considered the same instrument as a grand. The grand action is gravity driven and upright action is gravity + string driven. Yes there's a spring inside a grand action performing some functions to help repetition, but fundamentally it's a gravity driven mechanism. The ultimate result of a fully gravity driven action is that the contact with the hammer is not lost half way through the blow (as in an upright), but only at the very last moment before the hammer strikes the string (let off). In other words with the upright piano action the hammer essentially runs away from you under inertia almost as soon as you start depressing the key making any kind of delicate control basically impossible. That's why one of the first things people notice on an upright action when comparing to a grand is how difficult it is to play softly.
Thirdly: the upright action does not have double escapement. Proper repetition is physically not possible on an upright meaning even further loss of control during a key element of piano playing aka replaying the same note reasonably quickly. On an upright you physically can't replay a note inside the key's travel, which is a technique that provides for true control (and really is the way vast quantities of music are actually meant to be played, especially the romantic repertoire and beyond).
When you sum it all up these are not two types of the same instrument, they are vastly different instruments - one of them (in my humble opinion) being pretty much unfit for purpose, especially if your purpose is playing what is referred to as classical music...which is also an inexplicable ubiquitous misnomer that simply won't go away, but I digress...
The best you could ever say for the upright is that it kind of sounds alike a piano and it can be used for popular music or jazz, or any piano music that doesn't require a significant degree of finesse or sophistication for delivery.
On my grand piano and any other grand I've played, the una corda pedal allows the hammers to strike two of the three strings, not one. The main reason I prefer to play a grand piano is the feel of the action, which is completely different from that of an upright.
My Grotrian doesn't - but moves them to a softer part of the hammers.
@@alanclarkeau It's a matter of regulation. They can be set up all ways. If it moves the strings to a different part of the hammer then the una corda can be voiced separately.
I didn't know that about the Unicorda pedal, that's awesome.
Very clear, and well presented! You could also mention that the grand piano action is a bit more sensitive/responsive, because it require less "linkage" between the key and the hammer, since the action doesn't have to change the direction of force (key goes up & down, so does the hammer) - in an upright, of course, the key goes up & down, but that motion must be first changed to fore & aft for the hammers to strike strings lying on a *vertical* plane. And it requires a backcheck, bridle and bridle tape that the grand piano doesn't need (which allows the grand to be just a tad more responsive).
I wish i Had the old upright piano I grew up with and learned to play on. My parents were moving and had to sale it because of down sizing. I had no place to put a piano at the time. I loved that old piano . It was a Voce and sons its sounded so good. I just hate seeing people letting them old uprights go to the ruins. I would love to have a grand piano but dont have the space for one. I only have an upright one now.
You didn't mention the double escapement action that is only on grands. That, to me, is the main difference between a grand and an upright.
@johnbusy86 Absolutely. On a horizontally strung piano you can repeat a single note more times per second than you can on a piano-forte that is vertically strung. .
Way to go Den!!!
An interesting topic. Thanks for spurring the discussion.
I actually prefer the left pedal on an upright because it just changes the incline but still hits all the snares per note, so there's no change in the 'width' of the sound stemming from minute differences in overtones between the strings.
On the other hand, I rarely use the una corda pedal at all, my first piano teacher strongly discouraged his students to, unless the score explicitly calls for it.
You forgot that the hammers on a grand get pushed upward instead of horizonal on an upright so the control is better. Also longer string length decreases inharmonicity. I like my spinet tho with hella inharmonicity. I think it sounds very complex and tone rich. I think the una corda on a grand sounds beautiful. It changes the balance with the bass louder and the mid and treble softer, also with a purer sound.
Una corda allows only one string BUT the other strings of the struck string resonates. That is why there is a difference in sound between the grand and the upright.
A good upright is always better than a BAD grand but generally a good grand will outperform an upright UNLESS the grand is shorter than the upright in which case the grand will have worse bass tone which means, screw the grand, upright is going to sound better and therefore will be nicer to play.
I agree. There truly are some arguments for an upright. It depends on quality, as you mention.
I personally am very happy with my Yamaha YUS 5 upright. The bass is not that clear as it were in a concert grand, of course, but my upright outplays so many "baby grands" as I have much longer strings. And: For the performer it may sound even louder than a grand piano, for it has some hidden sound holes right in front of one's face. The dynamic range is outstanding.
@@oneirdaathnaram1376 Yeah, Yamaha uprights in general are very nice. I actually like the Yamaha P22 surprisingly enough, I played one with exceptional voicing and good bass tone from Piedmont Piano Company. Even a short upright can outperform a grand in some circumstances.
There was one aspect you missed, on the grand gravity makes the hammer drop quicker, this means the speed of repetition on a note is far enhanced on a grand, this create also a far smoother, quicker and effortless tremolo
Didn't explain there is such a thing as upright grands, which are essentially uprights with a sostenuto pedal like the Kawai K80 Upright Grand my wife has owned for years.
I enjoyed your video. You have probably upset a few people who own an upright, even if what you have said is true. To my ears an upright piano and a grand piano have quite a different sound and when playing each one they feel different. The design of an upright prevents it from being a grand. Space was the main factor in its design. A high quality upright piano will sound close to a grand and that is all you can hope for.
My upright concert grand could put a lot of baby grands to shame. Mine did sound like a concert grand. I had a tall upright. It weighed 900 lbs when it was moved years ago. I would not buy any upright if the action doesn't have stickers in the action. They eliminated them to make studio uprights as know as practice pianos which are shorter uprights. I sure miss my old HP Nelson upright concert grand piano. But the Florida humidity did it in when we moved to Florida. As for the action it was not too heavy or too light it was like most grand actions when playing. I know the difference in design. 73
Interestingly, 4-pedal Fazioli grands can do like the upright piano when its leftmost pedal is depressed.
Absolutely no. Nothing wrong with a good upright, but there is no comparison to a grand piano. Over the years they have almost become different instruments to me. And 5'10 or larger for grands.
Play a Schimmel. Upright unlimited.
The biggest difference for me is the action, grand pianos offer so much better control over the hammer
So-called "grand" pianos have better "repetition" than an upright. I would consider that to be the main advantage. On a "grand" piano you can repeat a single note more times per second than on an upright.. Retail piano merchants, by mislabeling them, are responsible for most of the confusion that people have between grands and uprights. Grand is the word in French for the English word large. The phase "baby grand" is therefore not only a misnomer, but is a ridiculous contradiction of terms. The 2 basic kinds of pianos we have are more properly called horizontal pianos and vertical pianos, according the way their strings, their cast iron plate if they have one, their pinblock, and their soundboard are arranged - either horizontally or vertically. Also, the word "piano" is itself a misnomer. These marvellous struck-string instruments play both piano _and_ forte. They are so much more capable than the word _piano_ makes them out to be.
FYI, in French a grand piano is "un piano à queue" - a piano with a tail - and an upright is "un piano droit" - a straight piano.
A baby grand is called "un crapaud" - a toad piano.
German is more poetic: the grand piano is "einer Flügel" - a wing, while an upright is "eines Klavier" - a keyboard.
Edit: I forgot: "un grand piano" can be said in French. But a French person will understand you are talking about a LARGE piano, which could be either an upright or a grand - both come in smaller or larger sizes.
@@gerardvila4685
Cool!
I spoke with a gentleman in Nashville Tennessee about 3 years ago. Does anyone have his name or number. He sold around the Nashville area.
there is no comparison, maybe between a very good upright and a very bad grand but that is about it.😀
Ooop
0:31 😊
a person can tell a good piano from a so'so piano right off from the tone quality . touch is a personal preferance.
You are saying that the upright might be bigger than a baby grand, but it sounds worse. I agree, but you are not explaining why, so your clip is quite useless.
Every piano action is radically different. Practi c e hanon and philipe and scales then anything is easy. I have nothing to sell you.
My Yamaha YUS 5 is an upright with sostenuto pedal.
The vast majority of uprights don't have it, though.
@@theadventureinsider True 😅
@@theadventureinsiderSame with grands, the majority have just 2.
@@minder01 That's not true, most grands have 3 pedals and have sostenuto pedals, I've only encountered a couple grands with two.
It is a fact that a lot of grands have more pedals compared to other pianos, but it is also true that they do not constitute the majority. It is a design tradition among big-name manufacturers to include three pedals, but the truth is that the third one is unnecessary as its properties can be readily replicated by the other two.
my mason and risch console has the middle pedal that dampers the low end of the keyboard only. do many verticals have this. it also has ivory keys, it was a piano built in toronto in 1954
Most older uprights have bass sustain as its middle pedal. At least, it makes the pedal do something. The mute middle pedal like the one in the video came much later around the 2000s.
@@worldlinerai The practice pedal was around in the 1970 already!
@@PiotrBarczhi there. Great to see you here🎹🎶