Around 5500RPM it shows the 409 hitting 425hp, max rating is what should have been shown. As a Pontiac man I like to give credit where credit is due. The SD421 is the stuff of legend without the need of a Beach boy song.
@@bobg3034 Pontiac all the way baby. I respect the 426 Hemi. A legend. But Pontiac is near & dear to my heart. Thanks to Mickey Thompson, Arnie farmer Beswick Only a few . I've pressing the for 55 years. Never blew a bottom end. Learned very early on stamped rockers go to the scrap can. Stud the bottom end ! Roller cam. Very drivable, enjoyable, and in 1967 firebird the 400 plant with a few other tricks, gets me 425hp @ the crank. A true monster. Especially for the street Goodluck George.
The "muscle car motor" 409 was and is primarily a "truck motor". With a whole laundry list of "challenges" built in as far as "high performance" goes. "Challenges" the pure "high performance" Pontiac 421 passenger car engine does not have. The "flat" cylinder head design with all the combustion chamber in the cylinder, for example. The 348/409 "platform" is also mid-1950s technology. The 396 and 427 "mystery motors" were and are the correct BBC "generation" to be comparing to Pontiac 421s.
The Pontiac pre production Catalina 421SD dynoed 488 hp by GM Engineers , she was seriously underrated 🏁👍 That’s another reason why the Goats with Ram Air IV later in the decade couldn’t touch her. They were all a second to a second and a half slower in the 1/4 mile than the Big Cat
I have a 62 Grand Prix 421 Super Duty complete with dual 4's , 4 speed transmission and 8 lug wheels . And I got absolutely free ! It was in building a buddies dad bought covered in dust and grime. I was told I could have it if I came and removed it. Believe it or not It had sat for over 40 years and after fresh fluids and carb rebuilds it fired right up.
WHAT, no computer, fuel injection, electronic ignition, crankshaft position sensor, variable valve timing, egr, scr, cmos, ttl, lsi, vlsi, and it started after 40 years??? GOTTA LOVE PROGRESS !!!
Most people don't know this motors true power. The 421 SD was a quantum leap. It's peers are few, (426 Hemi, L-88, Boss 429, LS6, 427 R code) it's dual quad intake has never been outdone by the aftermarket. A true legend.
To be honest to the times, Pontiac was many years ahead of those you mentioned. At least 3-5years ahead and winning the HP wars quite outstandingly till late 1964. They were running 11.23,s with the SD 421 Tempest & Lemans back in 1962 & 63 at over 120mph, on those shitty tires back then!! So to be honest Pontiac had no equal until they learned, got bigger(426,429 ect.) and surpassed because of GM,s stupid ban. However Pontiac got even With the GTO. The world’s first Muscle car that started it all, that amung itself is another first. Then Mercedes in 1970 came with AMG. Learned from Pontiac because of the Winning Nascar Cup Challenge 1963 SD Lemans they should not have been allowed to buy, back in 1963. It’s never been seen again, dirty fuckers knew that was a very important and historically significant Pontiac. Because of them, greed and stupidity it’s gone and I’m still beyond pissed about it. They all learned from Pontiac, our countries true underdog brand of real honest badassery! Then in 1973/74 the SD455 came to be thanks to Herb Adams and others. When probably de Snogged it made them all stand up and look again however by then the Hemi had taken hold & Pontiac had no Real racing R&D support like the 426 had in the mid to late 1970,s. Kind of a shame really because if Pontiac were allowed to they could’ve gone far , real far!! Surpassing Mopar is my guess if allowed. The Aftermarket Pontiac blocks are really Awesome and offer quite a lot to us, thankfully. I’m saving for an Aluminum version with a billet US made Crower Crankshaft in around 421 specs
In my 3212Lb 1964 Tempest pictured from my wedding, my .030” over 1969 Pontiac 400 oem 4 bolt main puts down similar numbers to this 421 Butler built except a lil over 500 max Lb Ft of Tq at the flywheel on Dyno. 513 to be exact. It has many tricks up it’s sleeves including it’s 1969 #62 heads reworked by Butler. 😉
@@johntempest267 two years ago I found a real nice original 1962 Catalina for my brother with 59,000 original miles on it, from its original owner. He got it for $15,800 with a lot of extra parts. The car is like new and really is fun to drive and ride in. Gold with tan/gold interior with 8 lugs & it’s original 425A 389 not rebuilt yet. I have a 1964 Lemans with 32,421 original miles on it. It smells like new from the era in the car, we love it. Paid $7k for it in 2014. It’s a California car! I hope your plans work out well. A lil advice, go with a reputable builder and or one you know well. It’s worth it’s weight. Was for me anyway. I’ve had my Tempest since 1995
@@joshbrekke6374 Low mileage 1962 Pontiacs are as common as mint condition Babe Ruth cards! Lol. I just hope to find one with straight panels, floorboards you can't see through, and not missing all it's trim. I've met and befriended several guys who show their cars at local car shows. They seem happy to help with advice and share contacts. I've just got to get my plate cleared so I can focus. Videos like this help keep the dream alive and motivate me. Thanks for sharing about your stable. Hard not to be jealous. Haha
I'm a Ford & Mopar guy, but always thought highly of Pontiac's independent spirit & engineering. It still amazes me that their 1965 Catalina 2+2 recorded the fastest ever 0-60 time of 3.9.....that's engineering excellence...gearing, breathing, tune, everything. And how can you not love that old Houston Oiler Columbia Blue block color?
@@gteefxr3094 Glad you asked , the Pontiac 421 SD dynoed 488 hp by GM Engineers for pre production Catalinas And the mighty L88 427 dynoed between 560 and 570 hp @ 6,400 not the 430 hp @5,200 like GM advertised.
Man I had no idea how badass those Pontiac 421 Super Duty engines were! Pushing 490 horsepower right off the showroom floor in 1963.....that's incredible. That's right about what a bone stock 426 street hemi pushes from the factory at that rpm. 493 is what I saw a street hemi do on a dyno. I'd say it's between the 426 hemi, Ford R-code 427, Pontiac 421, and Chevy L88 427 for the title of King of 60s muscle car engines, even though the L88 only came in the Corvette, which I consider more of a sports car than a muscle car. I know you Chevy guys are gonna want to toss the LS6 in to the mix, but in my opinion, after driving both an L88 Corvette and a 70 LS6 Chevelle, the L88 if put into a 70 Chevelle with the same transmission and rear axle ratio as the LS6 car, the L88 would eat the LS6 for breakfast
I've never driven a 421SD Pontiac or an R-CODE Ford but I did drive a 66 Plymouth hemi Belvedere once, and lemme tell ya, nothing beats the power of the elephant. And I worked at a Chevy dealer right at the height of the muscle car era, so I've driven quite a few 327,350,396,402,409,427, and 454 Chevy muscle cars. Not to mention the 302 powered 67 Z28 I used to have. Favorite car I've ever owned. Great power and handling, which not many muscle cars had. Handling I mean
@@tomschweikert9537 The Buick 455 Stage 1 was a great street engine. But it only had 2 bolt mains and an undersized oiling system. And they were well known for cracking engine blocks under high RPM abuse...typically in the lifter valleys. Like I said...awesome street engine...but not an ideal engine for drag racing
@@jeremythompson9895 Ditto. Nothing compares to the Elephant. Junior Johnson said that he never felt that much power in any engine in his entire life the first time he drove his Hemi powered 64 Dodge
That’s a ringer not a 421 SD off showroom floor. I don’t know of a single round port head from those days. They didn’t offer round port heads till 68(?)
Had a 421 in a Catalina, man did that car run! Wish I still had it as I'll never find an affordable one these days. PONTIAC, gm' s performance division.
So many people don't realize how bad ass the Pontiac 421SD really was because of the ridiculously low 405 hp factory rating. I never realized it myself until I saw this video. Gotta admit I was amazed It made 82 more horsepower than a Chevy 409/409 engine at the same RPM. I once saw a bone stock Chrysler 426 Street Hemi on an engine dyno and it made 493 hp at 6000 RPM. I'd say the 421SD is definitely top 5 all time as far as muscle car engines go. Maybe top 3
Jeremy Thompson , it tops the Hemi because it was kicking ass and taking names since 1961 and the hemi didn’t come till 1964, well after the GM Ban. The Pontiac has 6.625” rods and the hemi has 7”. Pontiac is definitely way more bang for the buck and did it first and best till 1963
We had a guy in HS who drove & thrashed on his dad's 421 Duper Duty. It was a match for the other big boys, but no way in hell did come off as 80 HP beefier than a 409. Our fastest local was David Horn's 63 409, from the factory.
I ran a 428 Pontiac with closed chambered 670 heads and outran a ton of cars that were suppose to make more power. The long stroke Pontiac makes big torque that comes in at very low rpm. I think the average torque over the operating RPM range was the key in moving a heavy street car. I will be the first to admit that a properly built BBC with superior head flow will outrun the Pontiac engine that is basically a passenger car motor. But when you are running motors close to stock in classic Hot Rods Pontiac motors are a great competitor. Now days they are still developing good heads and offering larger stroke cranks where if you have the money you can build a Pontiac motor to make over a 1000 hp. Not bad for a Passenger car engine that was developed in 1954 and started out at 287 cubic inches. That same motor was developed to 455 cubic inches .
The 421 Super Duty's were only available to a few hand picked racers and dealers. A few hundred sold at most in 3 years. By 1962, the dual quad 409 Chevy was for sale to anyone who wanted to buy one.
Not true, The Swiss cheese aluminum front end super duty cars where hand picked for certain racers but anybody with the right money could have had fun with a super duty 389/ 421.
Great stuff. I love math and facts. Also love my drag racing history. Pontiac pretty dominated stock racing '59-61. Mopar came out with 413 Max Wedge in '62 and did well. Pontiac upgraded 389 SD to 421 and did very well again. Chevy came out with 409 and won some races. 1963 Mopar came out with 426 Max Wedge, Ford had 427, Pontiac 421 SD even more powerful and Pontiac dominated again. 1964 GM was out, Mopar MW cars competed with previous years then Mopar came out with 426 Race HEMI later in the year and the rest is history. Mopar dominated factory stock drag racing to the point after '68 and beyond the HEMI cars later in SS had to have their own class. That being said I love them all and would love to have one of everything!
@@boostjunkie2320 until a RamAir 4 Pontiac GTO or 1969 TransAm decided to run that is. Don’t get me started on the 1973 & 74 SD 455 Pontiacs. Many are still around and run they do as well, 😉!
I had a `66 Grand Prix, 421 tri-power HO (rated @ 376 HP), 4-speed, 3.42 Posi, that big boat surprised the crap out of plenty of 396 Chevelles, Boss Mustangs, Road Runners, Goats, you name it.... :-) Wish I still had it....
Black Waterdogs it's surprising to the uneducated just how poor the Chevy Camp performed in real numbers. That said, the 409 was probably the best performing Chevy engine of its time and was only eclipsed by the 427. The 454 was a crankshaft breaking joke! Check the core price from any vendor on reground Chevy 454 Cranks and you'll see core charges beyond reason when compared to everything else on the planet. That's because the factory Rod Length to Stroke ratio was so low, that any extra stress snapped the cranks in half. Even the forged steel cranks were effected. My buddy owns a Marina at the largest lake in Virginia and they have only one use for 454 blocks, and that is to anchor the boat docks. It is surprising to see the Pontiac 421 make so much HP though. Their exhaust ports with the radical downturn to accommodate the front suspension really takes its toll on performance. But 488 hp? That's a miracle considering! For those who love Pontiacs there is a company making tunnel port heads for the Poncho brutes. They will mill off the extended exhaust port downturns if requested, providing a straight shot out of the exhaust port to the headers! And Presto, you've got a cylinder head worthy of taking on its competitors, on a cubic inch to cubic inch basis! Have fun guys!
Two old school motors from my youth. Both of these engines were torque monsters. When you stepped on the accelerator the world would spin! A buddy of mine had a 1963 421 catalina with tri-power. Epic burnouts! He was a Marine forward observer at Kah san, made it back. Another buddy had a 63 Impala with a 409/425 and ended up scattering it all over the road, just did not like 6,000 rpms. He made too, but had to race automatics, as he left his clutch foot in Vietnam.
Hey, how about the baby blue Pontiac 389? I had a 64 Bonneville with one, putting out 325 ponies, totally standard factory stuff that purred like a kitten, I loved her almost as much as my girlfriend, now 50 years later, I still love her, may she rest in peace, wherever she may be, feel like crying now.
One thing that has puzzled me for the last several years is seeing 409s with "Turbo Fire" decals. I had thought Turbo Fire was the small block, and the the W series big block was Turbo Thrust. What gives?
A lot of us seem to forget.. Cadillac motors were monsters too! They had to be.. to pull those land boats around .. When I was younger a lot of them throwing in Built 472 Cadillac big blocks in their rides...
wicked tornado your a fucking idiot caddy motors are in nitro and alky cars and also own the highest gas powered top speed record and also fucking are better built then any of gms other engine or any of chryslers and fords
mpedward2 I had a 72 Eldorado with either a 500 / 501 in it,don't know the difference between the two but it is only 1 cubic inch so couldn't be much different!!!!!! That thing would scream!!!!!!
jdr ok They are like the chevy 496. Huge displacement that makes ridiculous torque waaay down low. Old men weren't buying those land yachts to race. Same for most guys who bought a truck with a 496. Both are great for down low torque and have incredibly restrictive intake, heads, and exhaust. The caddy engines are like everything else. With enough cash a rotating assembly that can handle being spun and a good set of heads are out there in the aftermarket. The point in this video was other manufacturers sold engines from the factory with a solid rotating assembly to high flowing heads. The ricers have proven with tons of $$ anything can make power. Chevy and Pontiac made some radical cars. I'm sure I'll get a heated response but go buy a 472 or 500 and show us we're all wrong. You're going to have an awesome tire shredding street engine that runs mid 13s at the track. I loved the caddy engine chevette car craft did back in 00. They would have saved $$ plus gone faster with a mild small block. Biggest engine in one of gms smallest cars. Was a cool deathtrap and they talked all about the engines limitations.
Not surprised that the 421 outpowered the 409. That's exactly why Pontiac built them in the first place. Pontiac had the 389's which were doing great in Super Stock until that 409 showed up at the dragstrip.
I had a super duty 389 Pontiac until thet night we ran up against the 409/409. It was a really close race but I could see the writing on the wall. That was the night I switched to Chevy.
@@t.t.6398 SD 421 with 2X4 carb factory race cars were fast. I never saw any 421 factory street motor out run a 409 Just look at what was winning at the Nationals in 1962. Were talking about street class's Not F/X class. even then chevy had the Z11 427. Pontiac & GM was all finished as factory racing by the end of 1963. I was at the NHRA Nationals in 1962 and Don Nicklson won Stock Eliminator in a Chevy 409 and runner up was another 409 driven by Dave Strickler. Then by the end of 1963 the Dodge's started to take control. Thats why the FX class got started. I was a Pontiac guy when I was beating up on Chevys with a 57 Pontiac. Thats why I bought a 60 super duty. It did great but the world moved on and back in those days Stock meant Stock we were very limited to what could be done.
I ❤️ remember when Chevrolet with The 1961 and hafe' came out with the 409 Biscayne and Nothing could Touch that 409 Biscayne!! A middle Class earner pay Check would put you in the driver's seat...409 was a Ledgenary engine of it time...Even By today's standard...
Back in the day, these engines were being rated purposely by manufacturers well below their actual potential hp numbers for the benefit of the insurance companies. The 426 HEMI led the charge in that department! Insurance premiums were killing their sales. I knew guys that bought high performance cars where their insurance premiums were higher than their car payments‼️ No sh**‼️ It was like buying two cars to them! Insurance companies were intentionally cracking down on performance automobiles. That was killing muscle/pony car sales way ahead of EPA and their ridiculous unleaded low compression restrictions. That’s why these really HP cars are so rare today. Guys couldn’t afford to buy them back in the day.
Great screen name there. I don't think I have the full vid anymore but will let you know it shows up. This series ran on the speed channel from around 2000 to the middle of the decade, and was called "The American Muscle Car". You might find it on ytube (I'm finding some right now) or other places on the net. I did just the 409/421 mainly because they were rivals from the standpoint of similar carburetion, cubes, cam, compression, both came out at the same time, and both GM, etc.
For all you folks calling the 409 a truck motor. The 421 was basically the same design as 1955 Pontiac 287, it was just bored and stroked. Don't get your panties in a wad because the 421 has more HP and Torque, your engine parts are still cheaper to buy.
THe 409 was a bored/stroked 348 which was designed for trucks before used in the '58 Impala. All truck features including the combustion chamber entirely in the cylinder!
Every single Pontiac V8 ever made was based on the 1955 287 cubic inch V8...the 301, 317, 326, 347, 350, 370, 389, 400, 421, 428, and the 455. Impossible to tell them apart at just a glance
421 Had a song in 1962 by the Super Stocks called "Wide-Track" ..."Red hot and cool w/a big chrome tach-got a 421 in front w/lotsa talking back. When it comes to the power shift I really got the nack and I never been beaten in my new wide-track......Big heavy clutch she's ready for some action and she'll never break loose w/the posi-tracion...Dual carbs are thirsten they need more gas theres nothin on the road that I can't pass"!!!!
Problem with these aftermarket things is that aftermarket parts are absurdly expensive. Want an all-new 409? Well, it's 6 grand for a World Products block, which is possibly either discontinued or is always on backorder... Edelbrock cylinder heads are 1100-1200 EACH... Add rotating assembly, etc., etc.. ...Personally, I feel like I'd be better off going with the Poncho. Get a dime-a-dozen 455 block, mod it for 4-bolt mains (if it doesn't have 'em already), and stick in it a 4" stroke crank to bring it down to 421 cubes, slap on it some performance heads, dual quad intake with bolt-on cross ram horns, a pair of headers... And stick it in a '63 Tempest for a SD Tempest clone. Don't know what transmission, though.
if you are serious about racing thats route you take, how fast you want to go depends on how much money you got, if you dont have the money then race a small block
The 409 was mostly hype... the combustion chamber in cylinder design didn't work that well... that's why everyone went back to combustion chambers in the heads...
LS conversions in old muscle cars have got to be one of the most lame, weak things ever. I laugh at those guys at the track who do it and run 12s while I runs 10s in my iron headed pump gas 455 GTO.@@USCisgay
I have a 500 Cadillac with aftermarket aluminum heads, roller cam, rods and pistons. plus fuel injection in a 1940 Ford coupe, its a riot. 4:11 nine inch ford rear and an Art Carr 2004L overdrive makes a good package.
I like what was said about how to handle these classic, 50 plus year old powerplants. They should be preserved, not stressed with max effort, go fast goodies that will only hasten their demise. Once these blocks and heads are gone, they will be gone forever. Let's keep them around as long as we can!
@@johntempest267 , it came off a list shown recently I found on the "Corvette Forum", all I know about it. I question at least some of the listings because it has the Z/28 302 @ 310 hp @ 6,200 rpm - but that seems too low and at too low of an rpm also for peak !?🤷♂
@KoDBeast Good points. Yeah I saw that 425 too, so I'm not totally sure how they arrive at the figures they got, maybe they discarded it because the dyno was not yet loading the engine at the proper rate at that time, or something. AND YEP THESE ARE BOTH GREAT MOTORS.
I live on a main street...oh about 15 or 20 years ago I noticed a semi would come pass my house the same time everyday...So I went up into my attic so I could see what was in the trailer bed...I almost shit on myself...Everyday that semi and trailer went by it was full of old V8 engines....I had worked at a junk yard for years so I knew what engine was what just by looking at them....For days i tried to stop the guy but he just kept going. I was so sick to see these engines go to the scrap...so many good parts....
Yeah, I'm in love with 4dr sedans my self !!! I've got a 60 Biscayne w/tilt glaas nose, bench seat 4speed !!! 11.56 @ 123 mph. street tires, pump gas 11.0:1 small block!!! But I love early Indians, My last was a 60 Catalina conv. 389 tri-power. My buddy used to race one just like it in the mid 60's, They called it "The 60 G.T.O" out of sarcasm !!! It did not win many digs but was a record holder for B.P.M. (Beers per mile)
I had a 63 impalaSS in 10 th grade at 16 . It was great didnt look like much .But it did stomp the smartass with the bonneville convertible with the 3-2 setup.Right in front of all the super cools in front of school They all said and put up money to see that piece of junk 2x4 409 Beat daddys car.I had the formula 409 Z11.And yes it was a Z llwish i still had it.
Shut up. Why do they call it Detroit motors, the Ford Motor Co,, Chrysler Motors, GM motor division. Harley Davidson Motor Cycles. Dumb ass. Oh it's an engine. Who gives A SHIT
Question is that Pontiac engine related to the old 348 and the 409 Chevy engine? The valve covers look the same. Just looking for an answer. I had a 348 Chevy that looked the same.
Well the 348 and 409 were both in the first generation of chevy big block, and had those totally unique and recognizable valve covers, it was made produced from 1958-65. The pontiac 421 was from the original pontiac block that came out in 1955 as a 287. BUT in 1961 you had the first large main journal (3.25) pontiac block that ran from 1961-76 on 421 428 and 455 engines. The 326 350 389 400 had smaller 3.00 mains and were produced from 1959-79. From 1955-58 it was the same block, but the mains were smaller, for one thing. From 1959-79 not much changed on the block which allowed for great parts interchangeability. In short, Pontiac and chevy v8s are totally their own block, the good ole days when each gm division had its own engines exclusive to their division
Don I remember my dad telling me about a crazy friend in about 1960 with a factory 59 impala 3x2bbl that hauled ass. My dad says they went into a 20mph turn at 80mph. They got lucky and slid into a Kansas cornfield with no damage to car! Well recently I looked it up and it appears for that 59 to have a 3x2bbl the only engine that could come with that was a 348! So that friend had a hot car for sure.
@@1967PmdGto Ok thank you for the information. I had the 348 in a 60 Chevy Impala. The guy my father bought it from said it was a 409, but many years later I checked and there were no 409's put in passenger cars until 61. And really that was the breaking point between me and my father. Lots of crap happened before I got that 60 Chevy. But anyway thanks for the information.
@@1967PmdGto Well when I finally ended up with that 60 Chevy Impala I took to a hot rod shop and asked what could be done to that 348, he said basically to drain the oil out of it and kill it. Because there was nothing I could do for it. It had a 4 barrel carb in it and couldn't even break the Byous Ply tires loose. Even after I replaced the Turque glide transmission out and replace it with a power glide transmission. Still nothing. But again that was the last battle between me an my father. Really never talked much after that. He even cut off the back 2 barrels do I wouldn't race it, but what he didn't know was even with those 2 barrels it was still a dog.
I dealt in cars and junked(recycled for you punks). I got hold of a 1966 Bonnevile with a 421 4 spd it would really surprise some of those racer guys back then...it would Modac (go fast fer u punks)..A friend of mine had a kid who wanted it so bad he made an offer I could not refuse(the father)..I really loved it but I had a wife and 2 little girls that loved to be fed💓💓.Had a few deals like that....
I fell in love with a '66 GTO that had a 421 Tri Power in it. It didn't run and the tires were flat but you could eat off the engine. The lady that owned it wouldn't sell it to a 17 year old kid. She said I'd kill myself in it. She may have been right.
I remember the 409, they were like hemi's, very little low end torque. You had to get them up to at least 3000 before they even started making power. And on top of that, they had very small cranks, you could hardly tell them from small block cranks. Over rev them even a tiny bit and ka-boom, so be sure not to miss a shift because it's all over if you do.
Man that's great to know. Thanks. I should know your fact being that I'm into music of that time, but wasn't born then so do miss some stuff. I thought I'd heard mention of this song before, but was not able to confirm, and I think it was pre-internet days. Based on the info you gave here I was able to track down a 15 second sound sample on the net. I then found a youtube link for that song!! But would you believe this 47 year old song had been removed from YT for copyright reasons, UGH!!
Terrible comparison. No two dynos read alike. Butler took advantage of his free advertising. That sure didn't look like period correct exhaust on either one! Reminds me of 70's hot rod magazine all over.
hermon munster ; Horsepower and torque are both math equations and will cross at 5250 RPM. On the 421 they show the chart and Shure enough they cross at 5250 so we know the 488 hp is accurate for the Pontiac. They don't show the 409 chart so can't say how accurate that Dyno is ! I for one don't like running an engine without water pump,alt,pwr str hooked up. Makes for more realistic power numbers !
Low 13's is very respectable for any fullsize 4dr sedan. Remember, a 70 Judge w/street tires that was a few years old only ran low 15's high 14's. Guys are always re-writing history on how fast late 60's early 70's"muscle cars" were. Don't get wrapped up in the magazine talk, get your education from out in the garage not the Summit or Jegs thats sitting next to the toilet. Gather the "Well Kept Secrets" and become a "Beholder Of the Basics". A few wrong combinations leads to the right ones.
I don't have any but I'm sure I can get some from him. He street raced the 59 Catalina all through the late 70's early 80's in Chicago. Car was no slouch from other sources !!! Had a 4.88:1 gear and a close ratio Muncie. Car is long gone but he still has the 4.88 spool sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, and the split grills from the 59 are hanging on the garage wall !!! Have to get over there one of these days, He's still sittin on a buch of 409 stuff I've been meaning to pick up for a few years now.
yeh the narrator screwed up, the 409 made 425HP but the comparison is valid, the SD421 had more cid and better heads than the 409 did, 421 used to spank the 409 all the time in NASCAR and NHRA
No way. The Pontiac 421 SD is absolutely one of the best but the 409 isnt even one of Chevy's top 5 big blocks. The 454 LS6, 427 L72, 396 L78, 427 L88, and 427 ZL1 are all far superior to the 409. The 396 replaced the 409 in 1965 because they had reached the 409's maximum performance potential and it wasn't responding to cam changes and other performance modifications anymore. I can think of countless big blocks better than a Chevy 409. But I guess its all a matter of personal opinion. Here's my top 10 all time muscle car/factory drag car engines but not necessarily in this order: 1. Chrysler 426 Hemi(1964-71) 2. Pontiac 421 Super Duty(1961-63) 3. Ford R-Code 427(1963-67) 4. Chevy ZL1 427(1969) 5. Chevy LS6 454(1970) 6. Pontiac 455 Super Duty(1973-74) 7. Chrysler 440 6 BBL/Six Pack(1969-71) 8. Pontiac 400 Ram Air IV(1969-70) 9. Chevy L72 427(1966-69) 10. Chevy L78 396(1965-70) Honorable Mention: Buick 455 Stage 1(1970) The Buick 455 Stage 1 would've made my top 10 but they only had 2 bolt mains and an undersized oiling system. And they were known for cracking engine blocks under high RPM abuse...typically in the lifter valleys.The 455 Stage 1 was an awesome street engine but definitely not the best choice for drag racing due to it's relatively weak internals compared to the other engines on my list
Yup, great song. They also did "Cheater Slicks" "4 On The Floor" "Street Machine" on a compilation in the early 60s called "Shut Down" with the Beach Boys.
my friend's dad worked at a Pontiac dealership as a front end guy for 30+ years. in 63 the Catalinas with this engine had to be run hard. at stoplights, he would tap the pedal just to keep an idle!!!!!!!!
Unfoutunatly, in 63 these 2 engines came up against the 426 max wedge and the 427 ford, after that it was a chrysler, ford show, the record books, show the proof.
What happened to the rest of the video, where the Mopar 426 Hemi decimated the competition. I think it was something like 650hp? I saw some listings at 810hp but I don’t think that is correct.
If I remember correctly, the 409's horsepower peaked at around 4,500-5,500 RPM while the torque peaked around 3,000 and, for a split second, this was the case. The 409 shown in the video produced AT LEAST 425 horsepower and probably something like 480 ft. lbs. of torque. Not bad at all if you ask me. But admittedly, this is probably because of the headers. The stock headers were quite restricting and a good set of headers will bring a stock W series big block to life, so they were better suited for the low-compression versions put in trucks.
@@markmark5269 Not in this instance. The Console and reported numbers are the same. They reported at a high RPM after the torque was falling off. Chevy does NOT overrate engines. Big mistake given this is titled a Shootout! - Sandy
I'm very curious what exactly people think a .030 overbore is going to do power wise. Do any of you think that 6 cubic inches is the reason the Pontiac made that much more power than advertised? What they did say in the video is that they allowed the engines to be prepped like a period correct street/strip engine, which I am pretty comfortable in assuming means port work. People also need to remember that the W block Chevy was not a great engine design in the first place, which is why they changed it so quickly. Having the combustion chamber in the block just wasn't a great way to go.
A particular pair of heads and cam makes about the same HP no matter how many cubic inches under them... HP is from air flow... torque varies with cubic inches...
Yeah, not much can even come close! It's a shame the Super Stocks dis-banded in 64' right about the same time the Ramcharger era of drag racing started to fade and give way to all that Pony-Car and Chevelle crap. Quick storry I'll share cause of your screen name.Buddy of mine had a 59 Bonnie 2dr htp, w/12.5:1 421 2-Fours 4speed. His brother totaled the car one night, so he bought a 59 Catalina 4dr sedan for a parts car to fix the bonnie,but fell in love with it, soon he had a 421 4speed 4dr!!!
my cousin on the farm had a 59 bonnie 389 and came home 1 day with a 3 deuce intake on it. we took it out on the highway and it would fry the tires off into the horizon!
7:58: seeing the big block scorpion intake gave me flashbacks. I used one on a solid roller 427/435 for some odd reason years ago, it was the worst intake manifold i've ever used on anything! After I shut the engine off all of the pooled fuel in the bottom of it would boil off. LMAO
The 427. High riser was only put in around 112 Thunderbolts. Properly built it would make around 500 hp. I built one with the 7000 rpm bottom end. 512 hp at 7000. All the engines being talked about were overshadowed by the 427 commercial motor by Ford 645 hp at 70p0 right out of the crate. Never put in a production car though. Banned in NASCAR. TBIS ENGINE BECAME AVSIKA LE IN A CR A TE IN 1963. . ABSUTELY WIOED ALL OTHER AVAILZBLE ENGIBES AT THE TIME. BUT CAME ALONG A BIT LATER THAN TBE 406 409 421 sD
This was a Ford People doing this show. Ford even use a different engine on the Dyno so they could look good. That 409 made over 425 if you slow the tape down.
@@yaboileeroy3038 No, stroke length isn't really much of a factor in torque production. Displacement is displacement. What matters is the breathing and the Pontiac clearly does it better.
@@dclipper8052 displacement is one thing, but what you do with it is another. Longer stroke means more torque, and better breathing makes better use of that. Rethink what you just said before you spout off again.
@@yaboileeroy3038 Longer stroke does not mean more torque. Your understanding of engine dynamics is lacking. More displacement generally means more torque, or course, but whether that displacement is achieved by bore or stroke is irrelevant, mechanically, if the cubes are the same. Pontiacs are torque monsters due to their displacement and general breathing characteristics and tune. The rod/stroke ratio isn't a factor in that reality, it's a byproduct. In other words, Pontiac used a long stroke because they knew their engines weren't going to be revving high and it's easier to adjust stroke--and package it--than it is to have to accomodate a big bore (and yearly increases to that bore) when a block's bore spacing is a fixed value.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term "stock" in this video, but almost everything show on the two engines were special order items from a dealership. Two 4 barrel carbs with required intake, special McKellar cams, and anything over 10.5 to 1 compression on the pistons were all special order items on the Pontiac SD 421. You could special order pistons for the SD 421 that offered up to 13 to 1 compression. What I'm saying is, I guess anything that could be ordered directly from a dealer is considered stock for the purposes of this video, is that right?
To heck with aftermarket parts. That's fine if you have deep pockets. Newsflash...but you CAN'T use those "collector item" factory heads if you are (a) DEAD or (b) high octane gas isn't available any more. As it is you are gonna have to use something like VP Racing Fuel to even run these engines. Use whatever heads you can afford. Let those rich guys buy the expensive aftermarket heads. What good is a 409 or 421 if you can't RACE it????
They don't put a lining around the valve they put hardened seats in the Heads for the valves so it doesnt need a additive to keep it from eating the valve seats!!!!
6 років тому
patrick thank you!!! i cant stand you tube professionals like the guys above your comment they wouldnt know a ball valve from an intake valve
@port nut the 55 Chrysler 300 had a dual quad solid lifter 331 Hemi rated at 300 horsepower. The 56 300 had a dual quad solid lifter 354 Hemi with 340 horsepower and a 355 horsepower racing version was optional. The 57-58 300 got the dual quad 392 Hemi with 375 horsepower and a 390 horsepower racing version was optional. The Chrysler FirePower 331/354/392 Hemi was the best high performance engine of the 1950's. Mopar was marketing muscle cars in 1955-56...almost a full decade before the Pontiac GTO first came out. The 55 Chrysler 300 was the very first American muscle car and in 1956 the other 3 Mopar divisions(besides Imperial)all released their own high performance models...the DeSoto Adventurer, Dodge D-500, and Plymouth Fury. The Dodge D-500 was the fastest American production car in 1956 and the D-500 and Chrysler 300 absolutely dominated NASCAR in 1956. The Chrysler 300 was nearly unbeatable in NASCAR in 1955 as well.
I saw that on Speed Vision channel, but you should have did the rest of the engines. If I recall they have a Ford 427 Tunnel Port and a Chrysler Hemi, and a few other engines.
Nascar let Ford use it in 69 because the Boss 429 hadn't been approved yet. Petty ran a Mercury Cyclone with the tunnel port 427 in 69,believe he won a title with it that year.
Also odd to see the Chevy fall short of its factory rating even with headers, while the Pontiac exceeds its factory rating by 83 HP in the same trim. Huh?
The big push back then was hitting that one horsepower per cubic inch mark and I believe Chevy was the first one to claim that with the 409. After all, there was enough little variations in the mass produced parts to where if you put every fresh from the factory motor on the dyno, you’d easily see a few horsepower differences in every motor.
I’ll add that I’m a Pontiac guy from the first time my cousin gave me a ride in his ‘67 GTO. However, I can appreciate all these motors from back then.
@citydriver I saw the 425hp too. Not exactly sure how the dyno works but we know they're loading the engine (not free spinning in neutral) to simulate car weight. When I was in GM school they loaded my rebuilt transmissions on a similar device to see if it would hold together under a real car load. I don't know if the 425 was human error on these guys part, or maybe the engine was not in the right "load window" yet for the machine to consider it a true 425hp, who knows?
You will soon discover that 4 dr sedans have superior body construction and the structural integrity that guys w/htps (less cage) can only dream of. Don't get wrapped up in all the X-frame myths, 2 piece drive shafts are very strong w/minor upgrades and the correct drive angles. 59 Pont. has a Much better frame to begin with than any 59-64 Chev. Find your own"weak links"most people don't need the $2,800 Custom Fabbed Strange Engineering Ford 9" But they long to be a member of the "Me Too" crowd.
The real test is on the road, what the engine is put in and what transmission and rear gearing.....testing an engine by itself on a dyno is just so much glitter
Around 5500RPM it shows the 409 hitting 425hp, max rating is what should have been shown. As a Pontiac man I like to give credit where credit is due. The SD421 is the stuff of legend without the need of a Beach boy song.
Ya What the Hell?
@@bobg3034 Pontiac all the way baby. I respect the 426 Hemi.
A legend. But Pontiac is near & dear to my heart. Thanks to Mickey Thompson, Arnie farmer Beswick
Only a few . I've pressing the for 55 years. Never blew a bottom end. Learned very early on stamped rockers go to the scrap can.
Stud the bottom end ! Roller cam. Very drivable, enjoyable, and in 1967 firebird the 400 plant with a few other tricks, gets me 425hp @ the crank. A true monster. Especially for the street
Goodluck George.
The "muscle car motor" 409 was and is primarily a "truck motor". With a whole laundry list of "challenges" built in as far as "high performance" goes. "Challenges" the pure "high performance" Pontiac 421 passenger car engine does not have. The "flat" cylinder head design with all the combustion chamber in the cylinder, for example. The 348/409 "platform" is also mid-1950s technology. The 396 and 427 "mystery motors" were and are the correct BBC "generation" to be comparing to Pontiac 421s.
The Pontiac pre production Catalina 421SD dynoed 488 hp by GM Engineers , she was seriously underrated 🏁👍
That’s another reason why the Goats with Ram Air IV later in the decade couldn’t touch her. They were all a second to a second and a half slower in the 1/4 mile than the Big Cat
The 409 Chevy was giving up at least 75 hp to the Pontiac 421SD true hp rating 🏁
I have a 62 Grand Prix 421 Super Duty complete with dual 4's , 4 speed transmission and 8 lug wheels . And I got absolutely free ! It was in building a buddies dad bought covered in dust and grime. I was told I could have it if I came and removed it. Believe it or not It had sat for over 40 years and after fresh fluids and carb rebuilds it fired right up.
Gorilla Cookies damn why don’t I have luck like that
Can't be a real 421 SD 62 Grand Prix. Only 16 of them ever made and there's only one left known to exist
@@jeremythompson9122 Maybe there should be 2 known to exist now!!!
Holy freaking smokes....what a car
WHAT, no computer, fuel injection, electronic ignition, crankshaft position sensor, variable valve timing, egr, scr, cmos, ttl, lsi, vlsi, and it started after 40 years??? GOTTA LOVE PROGRESS !!!
Most people don't know this motors true power.
The 421 SD was a quantum leap.
It's peers are few, (426 Hemi, L-88, Boss 429, LS6, 427 R code) it's dual quad intake has never been outdone by the aftermarket. A true legend.
To be honest to the times, Pontiac was many years ahead of those you mentioned. At least 3-5years ahead and winning the HP wars quite outstandingly till late 1964. They were running 11.23,s with the SD 421 Tempest & Lemans back in 1962 & 63 at over 120mph, on those shitty tires back then!! So to be honest Pontiac had no equal until they learned, got bigger(426,429 ect.) and surpassed because of GM,s stupid ban. However Pontiac got even With the GTO. The world’s first Muscle car that started it all, that amung itself is another first. Then Mercedes in 1970 came with AMG. Learned from Pontiac because of the Winning Nascar Cup Challenge 1963 SD Lemans they should not have been allowed to buy, back in 1963. It’s never been seen again, dirty fuckers knew that was a very important and historically significant Pontiac. Because of them, greed and stupidity it’s gone and I’m still beyond pissed about it. They all learned from Pontiac, our countries true underdog brand of real honest badassery! Then in 1973/74 the SD455 came to be thanks to Herb Adams and others. When probably de Snogged it made them all stand up and look again however by then the Hemi had taken hold & Pontiac had no Real racing R&D support like the 426 had in the mid to late 1970,s. Kind of a shame really because if Pontiac were allowed to they could’ve gone far , real far!! Surpassing Mopar is my guess if allowed. The Aftermarket Pontiac blocks are really Awesome and offer quite a lot to us, thankfully. I’m saving for an Aluminum version with a billet US made Crower Crankshaft in around 421 specs
In my 3212Lb 1964 Tempest pictured from my wedding, my .030” over 1969 Pontiac 400 oem 4 bolt main puts down similar numbers to this 421 Butler built except a lil over 500 max Lb Ft of Tq at the flywheel on Dyno. 513 to be exact. It has many tricks up it’s sleeves including it’s 1969 #62 heads reworked by Butler. 😉
@@joshbrekke6374
Sounds awesome.
I recently found a set of #13 heads.
I've got big plans.
I love the Tempest, but I'm hoping to find 60-63 Catalina.
@@johntempest267 two years ago I found a real nice original 1962 Catalina for my brother with 59,000 original miles on it, from its original owner. He got it for $15,800 with a lot of extra parts. The car is like new and really is fun to drive and ride in. Gold with tan/gold interior with 8 lugs & it’s original 425A 389 not rebuilt yet. I have a 1964 Lemans with 32,421 original miles on it. It smells like new from the era in the car, we love it. Paid $7k for it in 2014. It’s a California car! I hope your plans work out well. A lil advice, go with a reputable builder and or one you know well. It’s worth it’s weight. Was for me anyway. I’ve had my Tempest since 1995
@@joshbrekke6374
Low mileage 1962 Pontiacs are as common as mint condition Babe Ruth cards! Lol. I just hope to find one with straight panels, floorboards you can't see through, and not missing all it's trim. I've met and befriended several guys who show their cars at local car shows. They seem happy to help with advice and share contacts. I've just got to get my plate cleared so I can focus. Videos like this help keep the dream alive and motivate me. Thanks for sharing about your stable. Hard not to be jealous. Haha
I'm a Ford & Mopar guy, but always thought highly of Pontiac's independent spirit & engineering.
It still amazes me that their 1965 Catalina 2+2 recorded the fastest ever 0-60 time of 3.9.....that's engineering excellence...gearing, breathing, tune, everything.
And how can you not love that old Houston Oiler Columbia Blue block color?
My two fav GM engines were the 421 Super Duty 🏁 and L88 427 🏁 both seriously underated " race engines "
How were they "underrated"?
@@gteefxr3094 Glad you asked , the Pontiac 421 SD dynoed 488 hp by GM Engineers for pre production Catalinas
And the mighty L88 427 dynoed between 560 and 570 hp @ 6,400 not the 430 hp @5,200 like GM advertised.
Thanks, I was thinking the normal "you tube" underrated bs.
Nothing beats the sound of the 4.00" stroke of a 421 C.I.D going through the gears!!! As far as Pontiac goes!!! Best sounding Indian !!!!
Man I had no idea how badass those Pontiac 421 Super Duty engines were! Pushing 490 horsepower right off the showroom floor in 1963.....that's incredible. That's right about what a bone stock 426 street hemi pushes from the factory at that rpm. 493 is what I saw a street hemi do on a dyno. I'd say it's between the 426 hemi, Ford R-code 427, Pontiac 421, and Chevy L88 427 for the title of King of 60s muscle car engines, even though the L88 only came in the Corvette, which I consider more of a sports car than a muscle car. I know you Chevy guys are gonna want to toss the LS6 in to the mix, but in my opinion, after driving both an L88 Corvette and a 70 LS6 Chevelle, the L88 if put into a 70 Chevelle with the same transmission and rear axle ratio as the LS6 car, the L88 would eat the LS6 for breakfast
I've never driven a 421SD Pontiac or an R-CODE Ford but I did drive a 66 Plymouth hemi Belvedere once, and lemme tell ya, nothing beats the power of the elephant. And I worked at a Chevy dealer right at the height of the muscle car era, so I've driven quite a few 327,350,396,402,409,427, and 454 Chevy muscle cars. Not to mention the 302 powered 67 Z28 I used to have. Favorite car I've ever owned. Great power and handling, which not many muscle cars had. Handling I mean
dont forget the champ of nostalgia muscle car racing... buick 455
@@tomschweikert9537 The Buick 455 Stage 1 was a great street engine. But it only had 2 bolt mains and an undersized oiling system. And they were well known for cracking engine blocks under high RPM abuse...typically in the lifter valleys. Like I said...awesome street engine...but not an ideal engine for drag racing
@@jeremythompson9895 Ditto. Nothing compares to the Elephant. Junior Johnson said that he never felt that much power in any engine in his entire life the first time he drove his Hemi powered 64 Dodge
That’s a ringer not a 421 SD off showroom floor. I don’t know of a single round port head from those days. They didn’t offer round port heads till 68(?)
Had a 421 in a Catalina, man did that car run! Wish I still had it as I'll never find an affordable one these days. PONTIAC, gm' s performance division.
Yeah I had a 66 Bonneville convertible 421 4spd She would FLY!.
my friend in high school took the 327 out of his '67 RS Camero and stuffed a tri-power 421 from a Catalina in it. What a combo
Holy shit it would be a monster. 12s no doubt
I like what both gentlemen said about not racing these old motors and preserving them as historical items.
1963 Tempest 421 clobbered the field in the 1963 Challenge Cup Race at Daytona. Check at out. The car has unique drivetrain features.
The 1963 unibody
@RaymondRaymond-fb7pk
That I cannot say.
I love my Pontiac had her for 32 years she's a solid roller 400 60 over with a 2004R 4spd overdrive 390 gears been much fun for decades
So many people don't realize how bad ass the Pontiac 421SD really was because of the ridiculously low 405 hp factory rating. I never realized it myself until I saw this video. Gotta admit I was amazed It made 82 more horsepower than a Chevy 409/409 engine at the same RPM. I once saw a bone stock Chrysler 426 Street Hemi on an engine dyno and it made 493 hp at 6000 RPM. I'd say the 421SD is definitely top 5 all time as far as muscle car engines go. Maybe top 3
Jeremy Thompson , it tops the Hemi because it was kicking ass and taking names since 1961 and the hemi didn’t come till 1964, well after the GM Ban. The Pontiac has 6.625” rods and the hemi has 7”. Pontiac is definitely way more bang for the buck and did it first and best till 1963
We had a guy in HS who drove & thrashed on his dad's 421 Duper Duty. It was a match for the other big boys, but no way in hell did come off as 80 HP beefier than a 409. Our fastest local was David Horn's 63 409, from the factory.
Wow a truck motor..... Not exciting.....
Nothing beats the sound of a big cube Pontiac!
Love the sound of both the Pontiac 421SD and 400 Ram Air IV. Probably the best sounding idle of any engines of the muscle car era. And I'm a Mopar guy
Sucks they arent around anymore
@@misterbuklau4053 Thank Bath house barry obammy!.
@@packingten Buick shouldve gotten the axe instead
I think you meant to say "anything beats...."
I ran a 428 Pontiac with closed chambered 670 heads and outran a ton of cars that were suppose to make more power. The long stroke Pontiac makes big torque that comes in at very low rpm. I think the average torque over the operating RPM range was the key in moving a heavy street car. I will be the first to admit that a properly built BBC with superior head flow will outrun the Pontiac engine that is basically a passenger car motor. But when you are running motors close to stock in classic Hot Rods Pontiac motors are a great competitor. Now days they are still developing good heads and offering larger stroke cranks where if you have the money you can build a Pontiac motor to make over a 1000 hp. Not bad for a Passenger car engine that was developed in 1954 and started out at 287 cubic inches. That same motor was developed to 455 cubic inches .
The 421 Super Duty's were only available to a few hand picked racers and dealers. A few hundred sold at most in 3 years. By 1962, the dual quad 409 Chevy was for sale to anyone who wanted to buy one.
Not true, The Swiss cheese aluminum front end super duty cars where hand picked for certain racers but anybody with the right money could have had fun with a super duty 389/ 421.
Great stuff. I love math and facts. Also love my drag racing history. Pontiac pretty dominated stock racing '59-61. Mopar came out with 413 Max Wedge in '62 and did well. Pontiac upgraded 389 SD to 421 and did very well again. Chevy came out with 409 and won some races. 1963 Mopar came out with 426 Max Wedge, Ford had 427, Pontiac 421 SD even more powerful and Pontiac dominated again. 1964 GM was out, Mopar MW cars competed with previous years then Mopar came out with 426 Race HEMI later in the year and the rest is history. Mopar dominated factory stock drag racing to the point after '68 and beyond the HEMI cars later in SS had to have their own class. That being said I love them all and would love to have one of everything!
by the late 60s the 427 Corvettes were dominating the drag strip
@@boostjunkie2320 until a RamAir 4 Pontiac GTO or 1969 TransAm decided to run that is. Don’t get me started on the 1973 & 74 SD 455 Pontiacs. Many are still around and run they do as well, 😉!
@@joshbrekke6374 sorry but they weren't faster then a big block Corvette
@@boostjunkie2320 Not sure about that...
@@707x-y6s Just do the math it's simple.....Power to weight........
I had a `66 Grand Prix, 421 tri-power HO (rated @ 376 HP), 4-speed, 3.42 Posi, that big boat surprised the crap out of plenty of 396 Chevelles, Boss Mustangs, Road Runners, Goats, you name it.... :-) Wish I still had it....
Black Waterdogs Hell yeah
Black Waterdogs it's surprising to the uneducated just how poor the Chevy Camp performed in real numbers. That said, the 409 was probably the best performing Chevy engine of its time and was only eclipsed by the 427. The 454 was a crankshaft breaking joke! Check the core price from any vendor on reground Chevy 454 Cranks and you'll see core charges beyond reason when compared to everything else on the planet. That's because the factory Rod Length to Stroke ratio was so low, that any extra stress snapped the cranks in half. Even the forged steel cranks were effected. My buddy owns a Marina at the largest lake in Virginia and they have only one use for 454 blocks, and that is to anchor the boat docks. It is surprising to see the Pontiac 421 make so much HP though. Their exhaust ports with the radical downturn to accommodate the front suspension really takes its toll on performance. But 488 hp? That's a miracle considering! For those who love Pontiacs there is a company making tunnel port heads for the Poncho brutes. They will mill off the extended exhaust port downturns if requested, providing a straight shot out of the exhaust port to the headers! And Presto, you've got a cylinder head worthy of taking on its competitors, on a cubic inch to cubic inch basis! Have fun guys!
ken cohagen Sounds like a lotta mumbo jumbo trash to me!
Nice story...yawn.
@@kencohagen4967 pontiac hand finished all super duty combustion chambers
Two old school motors from my youth. Both of these engines were torque monsters. When you stepped on the accelerator the world would spin! A buddy of mine had a 1963 421 catalina with tri-power. Epic burnouts! He was a Marine forward observer at Kah san, made it back. Another buddy had a 63 Impala with a 409/425 and ended up scattering it all over the road, just did not like 6,000 rpms. He made too, but had to race automatics, as he left his clutch foot in Vietnam.
Hey, how about the baby blue Pontiac 389? I had a 64 Bonneville with one, putting out 325 ponies, totally standard factory stuff that purred like a kitten, I loved her almost as much as my girlfriend, now 50 years later, I still love her, may she rest in peace, wherever she may be, feel like crying now.
One thing that has puzzled me for the last several years is seeing 409s with "Turbo Fire" decals. I had thought Turbo Fire was the small block, and the the W series big block was Turbo Thrust. What gives?
A lot of us seem to forget.. Cadillac motors were monsters too! They had to be.. to pull those land boats around .. When I was younger a lot of them throwing in Built 472 Cadillac big blocks in their rides...
wicked tornado your a fucking idiot caddy motors are in nitro and alky cars and also own the highest gas powered top speed record and also fucking are better built then any of gms other engine or any of chryslers and fords
i used to have a cadillac 429
mpedward2 I had a 72 Eldorado with either a 500 / 501 in it,don't know the difference between the two but it is only 1 cubic inch so couldn't be much different!!!!!! That thing would scream!!!!!!
jdr ok They are like the chevy 496. Huge displacement that makes ridiculous torque waaay down low. Old men weren't buying those land yachts to race. Same for most guys who bought a truck with a 496. Both are great for down low torque and have incredibly restrictive intake, heads, and exhaust. The caddy engines are like everything else. With enough cash a rotating assembly that can handle being spun and a good set of heads are out there in the aftermarket. The point in this video was other manufacturers sold engines from the factory with a solid rotating assembly to high flowing heads. The ricers have proven with tons of $$ anything can make power. Chevy and Pontiac made some radical cars. I'm sure I'll get a heated response but go buy a 472 or 500 and show us we're all wrong. You're going to have an awesome tire shredding street engine that runs mid 13s at the track. I loved the caddy engine chevette car craft did back in 00. They would have saved $$ plus gone faster with a mild small block. Biggest engine in one of gms smallest cars. Was a cool deathtrap and they talked all about the engines limitations.
or 500 s
Not surprised that the 421 outpowered the 409. That's exactly why Pontiac built them in the first place. Pontiac had the 389's which were doing great in Super Stock until that 409 showed up at the dragstrip.
I had a super duty 389 Pontiac until thet night we ran up against the 409/409. It was a really close race but I could see the writing on the wall. That was the night I switched to Chevy.
63 grand sport Shoulda bought a 421!
@@63grandsport11 Why would you decide to switch to a slower model car? That's so strange.
@@t.t.6398 SD 421 with 2X4 carb factory race cars were fast. I never saw any 421 factory street motor out run a 409 Just look at what was winning at the Nationals in 1962. Were talking about street class's Not F/X class. even then chevy had the Z11 427. Pontiac & GM was all finished as factory racing by the end of 1963. I was at the NHRA Nationals in 1962 and Don Nicklson won Stock Eliminator in a Chevy 409 and runner up was another 409 driven by Dave Strickler. Then by the end of 1963 the Dodge's started to take control. Thats why the FX class got started. I was a Pontiac guy when I was beating up on Chevys with a 57 Pontiac. Thats why I bought a 60 super duty. It did great but the world moved on and back in those days Stock meant Stock we were very limited to what could be done.
@@MilkMan608 455
I ❤️ remember when Chevrolet with
The 1961 and hafe' came out with the 409 Biscayne and Nothing could
Touch that 409 Biscayne!! A middle
Class earner pay Check would put you in the driver's seat...409 was a Ledgenary engine of it time...Even
By today's standard...
Back in the day, these engines were being rated purposely by manufacturers well below their actual potential hp numbers for the benefit of the insurance companies. The 426 HEMI led the charge in that department! Insurance premiums were killing their sales. I knew guys that bought high performance cars where their insurance premiums were higher than their car payments‼️ No sh**‼️ It was like buying two cars to them! Insurance companies were intentionally cracking down on performance automobiles. That was killing muscle/pony car sales way ahead of EPA and their ridiculous unleaded low compression restrictions. That’s why these really HP cars are so rare today. Guys couldn’t afford to buy them back in the day.
Great screen name there. I don't think I have the full vid anymore but will let you know it shows up. This series ran on the speed channel from around 2000 to the middle of the decade, and was called "The American Muscle Car". You might find it on ytube (I'm finding some right now) or other places on the net. I did just the 409/421 mainly because they were rivals from the standpoint of similar carburetion, cubes, cam, compression, both came out at the same time, and both GM, etc.
For all you folks calling the 409 a truck motor. The 421 was basically the same design as 1955 Pontiac 287, it was just bored and stroked. Don't get your panties in a wad because the 421 has more HP and Torque, your engine parts are still cheaper to buy.
the 409 truck had a severely dropped cr
THe 409 was a bored/stroked 348 which was designed for trucks before used in the '58 Impala. All truck features including the combustion chamber entirely in the cylinder!
Yes.....it was, C60 and up.
yup check speed parts...287 to 455
Every single Pontiac V8 ever made was based on the 1955 287 cubic inch V8...the 301, 317, 326, 347, 350, 370, 389, 400, 421, 428, and the 455. Impossible to tell them apart at just a glance
Great Post. My father had a 61 Pontiac with a 348 engine. Ironically the Canadian built Pontiacs had Chevy power.
That is the smartest thing I ever heard of the Canadians doing!
421 Had a song in 1962 by the Super Stocks called "Wide-Track" ..."Red hot and cool w/a big chrome tach-got a 421 in front w/lotsa talking back. When it comes to the power shift I really got the nack and I never been beaten in my new wide-track......Big heavy clutch she's ready for some action and she'll never break loose w/the posi-tracion...Dual carbs are thirsten they need more gas theres nothin on the road that I can't pass"!!!!
Following the dyno console The 409 made 425 Hp at 5500 rpm. That is more than 409. Chevy didn't lie.
The 421 certainly did get its own song. "Wide Track" by The Super Stocks.
Problem with these aftermarket things is that aftermarket parts are absurdly expensive. Want an all-new 409? Well, it's 6 grand for a World Products block, which is possibly either discontinued or is always on backorder... Edelbrock cylinder heads are 1100-1200 EACH... Add rotating assembly, etc., etc..
...Personally, I feel like I'd be better off going with the Poncho. Get a dime-a-dozen 455 block, mod it for 4-bolt mains (if it doesn't have 'em already), and stick in it a 4" stroke crank to bring it down to 421 cubes, slap on it some performance heads, dual quad intake with bolt-on cross ram horns, a pair of headers... And stick it in a '63 Tempest for a SD Tempest clone. Don't know what transmission, though.
if you are serious about racing thats route you take, how fast you want to go depends on how much money you got, if you dont have the money then race a small block
and thats why the LS is so popular.
The 409 was mostly hype... the combustion chamber in cylinder design didn't work that well... that's why everyone went back to combustion chambers in the heads...
LS conversions in old muscle cars have got to be one of the most lame, weak things ever. I laugh at those guys at the track who do it and run 12s while I runs 10s in my iron headed pump gas 455 GTO.@@USCisgay
The 421 DID get its own song. It was Called Wide Track by a SOCAL group called The Super Stocks with Glenn Campbell on guitar.
I have a 500 Cadillac with aftermarket aluminum heads, roller cam, rods and pistons. plus fuel injection in a 1940 Ford coupe, its a riot. 4:11 nine inch ford rear and an Art Carr 2004L overdrive makes a good package.
Well not everyone can afford the fancy aftermarket parts! Some people have to use the old stock parts!
You can make 500hp easy with all factory parts on a Pontiac engine.
@@rocksince64 yup factory hand-finished combustion chambers on super duty ponchos
Bunkie came to Pontiac in 1957. By 1961, Pontiac was #3 in sales after Chevy and Ford. Look it up.
yup but in 1954.. nuthin but flatheads
I like what was said about how to handle these classic, 50 plus year old powerplants. They should be
preserved, not stressed with max effort, go fast goodies that will only hasten their demise. Once these
blocks and heads are gone, they will be gone forever. Let's keep them around as long as we can!
Set up right,a 348 didn't play around either. Like 3 duce's and a 4 speed.
This was great, but the Pontiac/Chevy Dyno shootout I want to see is Ram Air IV vs L78.
RA 400 is 410 hp @ 5,600, and L78 is 400 hp @ 5,600. These are supposed to be from actual dyno tests.
@@tking7513
Don't know where you got that. I've heard the L78 65 Vette rated at 425 is the actual number.
@@johntempest267 , it came off a list shown recently I found on the "Corvette Forum", all I know about it. I question at least some of the listings because it has the Z/28 302 @ 310 hp @ 6,200 rpm - but that seems too low and at too low of an rpm also for peak !?🤷♂
@@tking7513 Right?
Seems like the DZ should be good for 6800rpm.
@KoDBeast
Good points. Yeah I saw that 425 too, so I'm not totally sure how they arrive at the figures they got, maybe they discarded it because the dyno was not yet loading the engine at the proper rate at that time, or something. AND YEP THESE ARE BOTH GREAT MOTORS.
421 was a beast, Royal Pontiac ruled at Detroit DragWay early 60s
Royal bobcat GTOs
I live on a main street...oh about 15 or 20 years ago I noticed a semi would come pass my house the same time everyday...So I went up into my attic so I could see what was in the trailer bed...I almost shit on myself...Everyday that semi and trailer went by it was full of old V8 engines....I had worked at a junk yard for years so I knew what engine was what just by looking at them....For days i tried to stop the guy but he just kept going.
I was so sick to see these engines go to the scrap...so many good parts....
joe smoe you should tour the Dana Corp foundry it would make you sick what they melt down everyday
79huddy oh I bet....it's so Sad...
Yeah, I'm in love with 4dr sedans my self !!! I've got a 60 Biscayne w/tilt glaas nose, bench seat 4speed !!! 11.56 @ 123 mph. street tires, pump gas 11.0:1 small block!!! But I love early Indians, My last was a 60 Catalina conv. 389 tri-power. My buddy used to race one just like it in the mid 60's, They called it "The 60 G.T.O" out of sarcasm !!! It did not win many digs but was a record holder for B.P.M. (Beers per mile)
Don't get me wrong, I love Pontiacs and Butler Motors, but I really do not think they are capable of building an engine in stock configuration.
Awesome Chevy the 409 I remember when they came out!😎
I had a 63 impalaSS in 10 th grade at 16 . It was great didnt look like much .But it did stomp the smartass with the bonneville convertible with the 3-2 setup.Right in front of all the super cools in front of school They all said and put up money to see that piece of junk 2x4 409 Beat daddys car.I had the formula 409 Z11.And yes it was a Z llwish i still had it.
That Poncho did not put that out pure stock, and I'm a big Pontiac lover.
The 1/4 mile times they ran in '62-'63 would suggest they did make 480 or more hp.
I am old school, and nothing " grinds my gears" more that calling an ENGINE a " motor" a motor is electric !
sawtnpeppa I know and I love these motors
Shut up. Why do they call it Detroit motors, the Ford Motor Co,, Chrysler Motors, GM motor division. Harley Davidson Motor Cycles. Dumb ass. Oh it's an engine. Who gives A SHIT
Right on, a motor starts a engine.
Stfu cry baby
"old school"? ... been a "motor" since before you were born...
Question is that Pontiac engine related to the old 348 and the 409 Chevy engine? The valve covers look the same. Just looking for an answer. I had a 348 Chevy that looked the same.
Well the 348 and 409 were both in the first generation of chevy big block, and had those totally unique and recognizable valve covers, it was made produced from 1958-65.
The pontiac 421 was from the original pontiac block that came out in 1955 as a 287. BUT in 1961 you had the first large main journal (3.25) pontiac block that ran from 1961-76 on 421 428 and 455 engines. The 326 350 389 400 had smaller 3.00 mains and were produced from 1959-79. From 1955-58 it was the same block, but the mains were smaller, for one thing. From 1959-79 not much changed on the block which allowed for great parts interchangeability.
In short, Pontiac and chevy v8s are totally their own block, the good ole days when each gm division had its own engines exclusive to their division
Don I remember my dad telling me about a crazy friend in about 1960 with a factory 59 impala 3x2bbl that hauled ass. My dad says they went into a 20mph turn at 80mph. They got lucky and slid into a Kansas cornfield with no damage to car! Well recently I looked it up and it appears for that 59 to have a 3x2bbl the only engine that could come with that was a 348! So that friend had a hot car for sure.
@@1967PmdGto Ok thank you for the information. I had the 348 in a 60 Chevy Impala. The guy my father bought it from said it was a 409, but many years later I checked and there were no 409's put in passenger cars until 61. And really that was the breaking point between me and my father. Lots of crap happened before I got that 60 Chevy. But anyway thanks for the information.
@@1967PmdGto Well when I finally ended up with that 60 Chevy Impala I took to a hot rod shop and asked what could be done to that 348, he said basically to drain the oil out of it and kill it. Because there was nothing I could do for it. It had a 4 barrel carb in it and couldn't even break the Byous Ply tires loose. Even after I replaced the Turque glide transmission out and replace it with a power glide transmission. Still nothing. But again that was the last battle between me an my father. Really never talked much after that. He even cut off the back 2 barrels do I wouldn't race it, but what he didn't know was even with those 2 barrels it was still a dog.
I dealt in cars and junked(recycled for you punks). I got hold of a 1966 Bonnevile with a 421 4 spd it would really surprise some of those racer guys back then...it would Modac (go fast fer u punks)..A friend of mine had a kid who wanted it so bad he made an offer I could not refuse(the father)..I really loved it but I had a wife and 2 little girls that loved to be fed💓💓.Had a few deals like that....
The 421SD in the lightweight GTO would have stomped the competition. Dumb GM sub 400ci rules.
I fell in love with a '66 GTO that had a 421 Tri Power in it. It didn't run and the tires were flat but you could eat off the engine. The lady that owned it wouldn't sell it to a 17 year old kid. She said I'd kill myself in it. She may have been right.
I wish somebody would bring back the old classic Pontiacs but I suppose the government would get involved and mess things up.
I remember the 409, they were like hemi's, very little low end torque. You had to get them up to at least 3000 before they even started making power. And on top of that, they had very small cranks, you could hardly tell them from small block cranks. Over rev them even a tiny bit and ka-boom, so be sure not to miss a shift because it's all over if you do.
heard that
Super Duty 🏁 would spank a 409
You can install a 454 crank and rods in a 409 block. FYI.... 😁👍👍👍
@@chriscatarcio2983 what has to be done to do this?
@@farnorthhomested844 l have never done it. But don Davis at c..j engine building in beaver falls PA. Can tell you.
Man that's great to know. Thanks. I should know your fact being that I'm into music of that time, but wasn't born then so do miss some stuff. I thought I'd heard mention of this song before, but was not able to confirm, and I think it was pre-internet days. Based on the info you gave here I was able to track down a 15 second sound sample on the net. I then found a youtube link for that song!! But would you believe this 47 year old song had been removed from YT for copyright reasons, UGH!!
is the whole series of this available? love to see all of the rest of the episodes. thanks. ☆☆☆
There was an entire show that paired the 427FE 426Hemi 421 427 Chevy
Terrible comparison. No two dynos read alike. Butler took advantage of his free advertising. That sure didn't look like period correct exhaust on either one! Reminds me of 70's hot rod magazine all over.
hermon munster ; Horsepower and torque are both math equations and will cross at 5250 RPM. On the 421 they show the chart and Shure enough they cross at 5250 so we know the 488 hp is accurate for the Pontiac. They don't show the 409 chart so can't say how accurate that Dyno is ! I for one don't like running an engine without water pump,alt,pwr str hooked up. Makes for more realistic power numbers !
The 421 SD had free flowing cast exhaust manifolds Bing it.
In any case, the 409 didn't as well.
ramairgto72 Nobody uses bing.
Especially these dynos there water brakes and slightly better then the seat of pants guessing at power.
pontiacs had aluminum exhaust headers that melted lol
Low 13's is very respectable for any fullsize 4dr sedan. Remember, a 70 Judge w/street tires that was a few years old only ran low 15's high 14's. Guys are always re-writing history on how fast late 60's early 70's"muscle cars" were. Don't get wrapped up in the magazine talk, get your education from out in the garage not the Summit or Jegs thats sitting next to the toilet. Gather the "Well Kept Secrets" and become a "Beholder Of the Basics". A few wrong combinations leads to the right ones.
I don't have any but I'm sure I can get some from him. He street raced the 59 Catalina all through the late 70's early 80's in Chicago. Car was no slouch from other sources !!! Had a 4.88:1 gear and a close ratio Muncie. Car is long gone but he still has the 4.88 spool sitting on a 5 gallon bucket, and the split grills from the 59 are hanging on the garage wall !!! Have to get over there one of these days, He's still sittin on a buch of 409 stuff I've been meaning to pick up for a few years now.
yeh the narrator screwed up, the 409 made 425HP but the comparison is valid, the SD421 had more cid and better heads than the 409 did, 421 used to spank the 409 all the time in NASCAR and NHRA
The top 409 in 62 was the 409 horsepower version. The 409/425 didn't come out til 63
yup with swiss cheesed frames and aluminum yes aluminum melty headers
richard petty said on MY FAVORITE CAR SHOW that 409 s had a combination of low rpm torque and horsepower so they were killer off the turns
327. Powerglide. Still alive in my 1963. Ss impala .
The two greatest damn motors ever made
That's debatable.
James Adams Sure, maybe for that time but the 5.5 liter Mercedes V8 is one hell of an engine.
The L88 puts out about 550hp.
James Adams: Two of the era's greatest damn engines. Fixed that for ya!
No way. The Pontiac 421 SD is absolutely one of the best but the 409 isnt even one of Chevy's top 5 big blocks. The 454 LS6, 427 L72, 396 L78, 427 L88, and 427 ZL1 are all far superior to the 409. The 396 replaced the 409 in 1965 because they had reached the 409's maximum performance potential and it wasn't responding to cam changes and other performance modifications anymore. I can think of countless big blocks better than a Chevy 409. But I guess its all a matter of personal opinion. Here's my top 10 all time muscle car/factory drag car engines but not necessarily in this order:
1. Chrysler 426 Hemi(1964-71)
2. Pontiac 421 Super Duty(1961-63)
3. Ford R-Code 427(1963-67)
4. Chevy ZL1 427(1969)
5. Chevy LS6 454(1970)
6. Pontiac 455 Super Duty(1973-74)
7. Chrysler 440 6 BBL/Six Pack(1969-71)
8. Pontiac 400 Ram Air IV(1969-70)
9. Chevy L72 427(1966-69)
10. Chevy L78 396(1965-70)
Honorable Mention:
Buick 455 Stage 1(1970)
The Buick 455 Stage 1 would've made my top 10 but they only had 2 bolt mains and an undersized oiling system. And they were known for cracking engine blocks under high RPM abuse...typically in the lifter valleys.The 455 Stage 1 was an awesome street engine but definitely not the best choice for drag racing due to it's relatively weak internals compared to the other engines on my list
When I was 16 we got a brand new '64 Bonneville convertible with a 421. Sadly I was never allowed to drive it.
Yup, great song. They also did "Cheater Slicks" "4 On The Floor" "Street Machine" on a compilation in the early 60s called "Shut Down" with the Beach Boys.
my friend's dad worked at a Pontiac dealership as a front end guy for 30+ years. in 63 the Catalinas with this engine had to be run hard. at stoplights, he would tap the pedal just to keep an idle!!!!!!!!
Torque is tops is acceleration, hp is just mph
Yep !!! Thats the un-mistakeable tune which I speak of !!! Most of the long-rod motors of the day could not breath like that.
Unfoutunatly, in 63 these 2 engines came up against the 426 max wedge and the 427 ford, after that it was a chrysler, ford show, the record books, show the proof.
Neighbor boy had a new one with tried power. White with the steak rear window. Claimed it passed everything except gas stations.
What happened to the rest of the video, where the Mopar 426 Hemi decimated the competition. I think it was something like 650hp? I saw some listings at 810hp but I don’t think that is correct.
You're tripping. The 425 HP rated 426 street Hemi put on the dyno showed 450 HP and 490 lbs/ft.
The best engine experiences any wrench spinner ever had.
Where can I find the full show? If I'm not mistaken, the 426 HEMI made over 800 hp
Huh I watched it and the dyno said 425 HP at 5558 RPM for the chev.
I saw that as well !!!
If I remember correctly, the 409's horsepower peaked at around 4,500-5,500 RPM while the torque peaked around 3,000 and, for a split second, this was the case. The 409 shown in the video produced AT LEAST 425 horsepower and probably something like 480 ft. lbs. of torque. Not bad at all if you ask me. But admittedly, this is probably because of the headers. The stock headers were quite restricting and a good set of headers will bring a stock W series big block to life, so they were better suited for the low-compression versions put in trucks.
yes, and then they correct the HP reading according to air temp and density to get the true sea level HP. That's why the variation.
Yeah seen it also
@@markmark5269 Not in this instance. The Console and reported numbers are the same. They reported at a high RPM after the torque was falling off. Chevy does NOT overrate engines. Big mistake given this is titled a Shootout! - Sandy
I would love to see pics and hear more stories
I'm very curious what exactly people think a .030 overbore is going to do power wise. Do any of you think that 6 cubic inches is the reason the Pontiac made that much more power than advertised? What they did say in the video is that they allowed the engines to be prepped like a period correct street/strip engine, which I am pretty comfortable in assuming means port work.
People also need to remember that the W block Chevy was not a great engine design in the first place, which is why they changed it so quickly. Having the combustion chamber in the block just wasn't a great way to go.
That 6 cubes could easily mow your lawn, plus it adds a little compression. I favor the Pontiac anyway.
@Dave Micolichek True as that may be, I think the argument specifically that I perceived was pertaining to the effect of the overbore.
A particular pair of heads and cam makes about the same HP no matter how many cubic inches under them... HP is from air flow... torque varies with cubic inches...
I too am questioning the intake issue. I have a feeling the 409 intake is a whole lot closer to stock than the 421 here.
Pontiac 421 Star Chief kicked butt. 1959 coupe.
Yeah, not much can even come close! It's a shame the Super Stocks dis-banded in 64' right about the same time the Ramcharger era of drag racing started to fade and give way to all that Pony-Car and Chevelle crap. Quick storry I'll share cause of your screen name.Buddy of mine had a 59 Bonnie 2dr htp, w/12.5:1 421 2-Fours 4speed. His brother totaled the car one night, so he bought a 59 Catalina 4dr sedan for a parts car to fix the bonnie,but fell in love with it, soon he had a 421 4speed 4dr!!!
my cousin on the farm had a 59 bonnie 389 and came home 1 day with a 3 deuce intake on it. we took it out on the highway and it would fry the tires off into the horizon!
That would be such an awesome sleeper car
7:58: seeing the big block scorpion intake gave me flashbacks. I used one on a solid roller 427/435 for some odd reason years ago, it was the worst intake manifold i've ever used on anything! After I shut the engine off all of the pooled fuel in the bottom of it would boil off. LMAO
I see Pontiac as the first word but the thumb was a 409 Chevy.
Let's throw a Ford FE 427 HI-Riser into the mix.
The 427. High riser was only put in around 112 Thunderbolts. Properly built it would make around 500 hp. I built one with the 7000 rpm bottom end. 512 hp at 7000. All the engines being talked about were overshadowed by the 427 commercial motor by Ford 645 hp at 70p0 right out of the crate. Never put in a production car though. Banned in NASCAR.
TBIS ENGINE BECAME AVSIKA LE IN A CR A TE IN 1963. .
ABSUTELY WIOED ALL OTHER AVAILZBLE ENGIBES AT THE TIME. BUT CAME ALONG A BIT LATER THAN TBE 406 409 421 sD
This was a Ford People doing this show. Ford even use a different engine on the Dyno so they could look good. That 409 made over 425 if you slow the tape down.
The Pontiac 421 made more torque and HP at 4700 rpm than the Chevy did at peak numbers, LOL.
midnight savannah Because it has a longer stroke.
@@yaboileeroy3038 but now let’s run them two for a mins fine . Let’s see that number hold up a hour glass .
@@yaboileeroy3038 No, stroke length isn't really much of a factor in torque production. Displacement is displacement. What matters is the breathing and the Pontiac clearly does it better.
@@dclipper8052 displacement is one thing, but what you do with it is another. Longer stroke means more torque, and better breathing makes better use of that. Rethink what you just said before you spout off again.
@@yaboileeroy3038 Longer stroke does not mean more torque. Your understanding of engine dynamics is lacking. More displacement generally means more torque, or course, but whether that displacement is achieved by bore or stroke is irrelevant, mechanically, if the cubes are the same.
Pontiacs are torque monsters due to their displacement and general breathing characteristics and tune. The rod/stroke ratio isn't a factor in that reality, it's a byproduct. In other words, Pontiac used a long stroke because they knew their engines weren't going to be revving high and it's easier to adjust stroke--and package it--than it is to have to accomodate a big bore (and yearly increases to that bore) when a block's bore spacing is a fixed value.
No wonder the GM GTO kicked the shit out of the Ferrari GTO back in 1964 !!!
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term "stock" in this video, but almost everything show on the two engines were special order items from a dealership. Two 4 barrel carbs with required intake, special McKellar cams, and anything over 10.5 to 1 compression on the pistons were all special order items on the Pontiac SD 421. You could special order pistons for the SD 421 that offered up to 13 to 1 compression. What I'm saying is, I guess anything that could be ordered directly from a dealer is considered stock for the purposes of this video, is that right?
These things came with 2 -4 barrel carbs standard on the SD...
yes stock or common mods
The 421 SD came from the factory with all those parts in 1962-63. In 1961 it was only an over the counter crate engine
To heck with aftermarket parts. That's fine if you have deep pockets. Newsflash...but you CAN'T use those "collector item" factory heads if you are (a) DEAD or (b) high octane gas isn't available any more. As it is you are gonna have to use something like VP Racing Fuel to even run these engines. Use whatever heads you can afford. Let those rich guys buy the expensive aftermarket heads. What good is a 409 or 421 if you can't RACE it????
You can add lead additive or you can take the stock heads and put steel lining around the valves like everyone else has.
High octane leaded gas is available at 2 stations in my town,$5.89 a gallon though !
***** Your reply sounds like it was written by a young child. Go do your homework and get off daddy's computer.
They don't put a lining around the valve they put hardened seats in the Heads for the valves so it doesnt need a additive to keep it from eating the valve seats!!!!
patrick thank you!!! i cant stand you tube professionals like the guys above your comment they wouldnt know a ball valve from an intake valve
409 First built for speed? How about the 413 cross ram Mopar of 1957?
How bout the 1955 Chrysler 300 and Dodge D-500?
the 413 was first made in1959, the Cross-Ram wasn't until 1960.
@@jeremythompson9895 or 1954 hemis on daytona beach
1959 was the first year of the 413. 1960 was the first year of the cross ram intake
@port nut the 55 Chrysler 300 had a dual quad solid lifter 331 Hemi rated at 300 horsepower. The 56 300 had a dual quad solid lifter 354 Hemi with 340 horsepower and a 355 horsepower racing version was optional. The 57-58 300 got the dual quad 392 Hemi with 375 horsepower and a 390 horsepower racing version was optional. The Chrysler FirePower 331/354/392 Hemi was the best high performance engine of the 1950's. Mopar was marketing muscle cars in 1955-56...almost a full decade before the Pontiac GTO first came out. The 55 Chrysler 300 was the very first American muscle car and in 1956 the other 3 Mopar divisions(besides Imperial)all released their own high performance models...the DeSoto Adventurer, Dodge D-500, and Plymouth Fury. The Dodge D-500 was the fastest American production car in 1956 and the D-500 and Chrysler 300 absolutely dominated NASCAR in 1956. The Chrysler 300 was nearly unbeatable in NASCAR in 1955 as well.
I saw that on Speed Vision channel, but you should have did the rest of the engines. If I recall they have a Ford 427 Tunnel Port and a Chrysler Hemi, and a few other engines.
I'll take the tunnel port thankyou
The tunnel port was not a production Ford engine that you could buy off the showroom floor as I recall.
Nascar let Ford use it in 69 because the Boss 429 hadn't been approved yet. Petty ran a Mercury Cyclone with the tunnel port 427 in 69,believe he won a title with it that year.
Fun to watch! Thx...
"It belongs in a museum!" At ease there Indy..."
my two favorite engines from gm
haha that's bad ass. I'm hoping to run low 14s high 13s with my Chief now. When I put new heads on it I'm hoping to hit low 13s.
I ran a Pontiac 421 SD in my AWB '51 Ford Sedan with a straight axle,
I will never EVER forgive Fox for shutting down Speed channel.
Yup, same here. The lost Drive in with Bruce Dern was one of my favorites as well, great show with a way cool knowledgeable host!
I agree speed channel was great especially when they covered the 24 hours of lemans
Yep, thats some good shit. I wish their other stuff was as good as those 4 songs. I have a few of their albums but nothing compares to those 4
Pure PMD eats a rat!Gotta love it.
Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races, and if it doesn’t go chrome it. And just what would you consider a blueprint cam?
whatever cam nhra allowed
great post keep it up ,
The Pontiac engine did well at the drags as far as GM until the 409 came out
I'm confused, because at 4:30 the dyno reads 425 HP, and you report 406 HP.
Also odd to see the Chevy fall short of its factory rating even with headers, while the Pontiac exceeds its factory rating by 83 HP in the same trim. Huh?
The big push back then was hitting that one horsepower per cubic inch mark and I believe Chevy was the first one to claim that with the 409. After all, there was enough little variations in the mass produced parts to where if you put every fresh from the factory motor on the dyno, you’d easily see a few horsepower differences in every motor.
I’ll add that I’m a Pontiac guy from the first time my cousin gave me a ride in his ‘67 GTO. However, I can appreciate all these motors from back then.
@citydriver I saw the 425hp too. Not exactly sure how the dyno works but we know they're loading the engine (not free spinning in neutral) to simulate car weight. When I was in GM school they loaded my rebuilt transmissions on a similar device to see if it would hold together under a real car load. I don't know if the 425 was human error on these guys part, or maybe the engine was not in the right "load window" yet for the machine to consider it a true 425hp, who knows?
You will soon discover that 4 dr sedans have superior body construction and the structural integrity that guys w/htps (less cage) can only dream of. Don't get wrapped up in all the X-frame myths, 2 piece drive shafts are very strong w/minor upgrades and the correct drive angles. 59 Pont. has a Much better frame to begin with than any 59-64 Chev. Find your own"weak links"most people don't need the $2,800 Custom Fabbed Strange Engineering Ford 9" But they long to be a member of the "Me Too" crowd.
The real test is on the road, what the engine is put in and what transmission and rear gearing.....testing an engine by itself on a dyno is just so much glitter