The Cold Hard Facts: Winter Heat Pump Performance Results Are In!
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- #heatpump #airsourceheatpump #heatgeek
In this video, I am revisiting one of my 2022 air source heat pump installations to see how the unit has performed.
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I have a heat pump. The real cold, hard facts: I did a thought experiment, just like Einstein would have done.
If we were able to install a million heat pumps in UK homes tomorrow, if they used one kwh per hour that would be about 25,500 megawatts. Everyday we use gas to balance the Grid, right?
Gas generation at the powerstation had a negative CoP of about 3. It follows that powerstations would have to burn about 70,000 megawatts of gas.
In a study, the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero concluded that average heat pumps were doing about CoP 2.8.
I love both you and your videos! More wind power, higher building standards and battery storage /solar pv is the way to go. The technology isn't quite there, batteries need to have 30kwh and a 30 year lifespan and not use lithium. I'm sure we'll get there, it's too soon for mass adoption of heat pumps in this country.
My real concern about heat pumps is not whether they work or not, but finding a reliable installer that will actually design and fit a system properly, rather than just slapping something in.
Heat Geek Elite network is the answer to that!
Yeah, this also expands to hasvoilers finding a good reliable and competent installer is the hardest part.
Also important in Western Europe is not to be charged over the moon for it, heat pumps are oversized fridges, a setup including install shouldn't cost ~15k but more like ~4k
You will not be able to even get the unit without a cylinder for 4k.
@@UrbanPlumbers Are you a heat geek yourself? I find your videos very interesting, I have a Viessman boiler (which recently broke down) and I think they also recommend some Viessman products, but I think on another of your videos you weren't impressed with one of them
Ha my guess was a of COP 3.8. It seem like a lot of people are achieving this kind of level with a well managed heat pump during those really cold periods.
I have wet underfloor heating and I’ve just had solar panels + battery installed. What type of boiler would recommend to take advantage of the solar but still being able to provide hot water for the UHF?
If you don't have solar panels installed heat pumps cost a fortune! Mine when it's cold runs at 87p/hr and when the temperature is 3c or less it turns itself on and can't be turned off even though the thermostat is above 18c running at 39p/hr and it runs all night! Heat pumps are a rip off!! We are helping the environment apparently but are having to pay high electricity prices for the privilege when people on gas are getting cheap heat.
The right house insulation... Exactly! Insulation BEFORE heat pump.
generally yes, but you can also isntall a heat pump and then insulate and just drop the flow temperature. You just need to be mindful about sizing the unit and making sure it will not be overszied once the insulation goes in.
Can you fit a heat pump to the front of your house in a conservation area?
Depends on the council. I have one approved in conversation area upfront
It would be good to get a better understanding of costs. Not just the cost of the heat pump, also the cost of installation. As Brian mentioned, and you have mentioned in other videos, it seems to be important that the building is insulated. For my 5 bed house built in 1906 that means replacing the roof, the windows, putting a skin over the house. This is very expensive. It seems unlikely that I'd recover that cost in the balance of my lifetime. Brian seems committed to using electricity and prepared to spend money. A 6.5KWh Growatt battery is what £3K plus an inverter and installation: £5K?. When I called Octopus last year hoping to be able to use a battery and overnight tariff, the Octopus representative told me only way to be able to access the cheap overnight tariff is if there is an electric car to charge (checked with DVLA apparently). So my guess is that Brian or his son owns an EV. Buying an electric vehicle is not cheap. Please set me straight. But it seems that to be able to have a heat pump that is competitive with gas, the outlay (heat pump, installation, battery/inverter plus installation, EV, insulation) is huge. For me, easily £100K to save, maybe £2K per year.
They did say that the battery/inverter side if things will only improve it further, it's already cheaper to run than a gas boiler prior to that.
But I do agree, a full set up with heat pump, battery, inverter, solar panels, electric vehicle etc is going to be an incredible amount of money
@@zlmdragon. On the question of external cladding/insulation, how would you ensure the building can still 'breathe'/get sufficient ventilation?
@@JohnBell-rf6oj The term 'breathability' needs clarification. It means vapour-open, ie: the ability to transfer moisture, not air.
Ventilation is about air, although making properties airtight without MVHR is not great either.
Any form of insulation on a "breathable" wall needs to be of vapour-open materials which will enable the building to function as designed. Breathable walls tend to be solid, made of stone or cob etc. Modern construction materials are vapour closed, concrete, or covered with Gypsum cement render, plaster or plasterboard etc. Insulation such as PIR, foam etc does the job as none of these "breathe" and are not designed to.
However, every building needs controlled ventilation (preferably not uncontrolled leaks or draughts) to eliminate excess air-borne moisture. Mechanical systems ideally.
What was the Total cost to install the whole system ?the guy will never see a return on that outlay ,i also see many people round here in their 80s who have had solar panels fitted and who will die before they get back the cost of the install.
I see radiators. Is this a heat pump delivering 75 degree of temp to the inside?
No, radiators are sized to work with 40c flow
@@UrbanPlumbers hey thanks for your answer. May i ask what has been done to the radiators? Im very curious. Greetings
@@Jazeeti they were sized to a temperature of 40C flow - so made bigger by calculating how big they need to be to keep rooms at 21C when the water in the system is 37.50C
I'm in a 3 bed semi and my gas bill for heating and hot water is about £100 per month. I suppose the question for any system is the cost of the fuel been used. Not sure why this fella needed to keep adjusting his gas boiler? Sounds a bit like a sales pitch to me.
On / off stat and high temperature setting left by his installer
You can contact me and come and set my pump up . When the temperature outside is +5 or lower it uses 50kwh per day at .33p per kWh that is not cheap to run?
Not cheap to run compared to what. How big is the house? Is the i it installed and set up correctly.
If it uses 50kWh a day the house much be pretty big
@@UrbanPlumbers I live in a small 3 bedroom detached house 112 m2 , I use in February 1137 kWh and only 133 kWh was for EV . Regards john
Hi after watching heat geek videos for the last 2weeks how air s heat pumps work my installer’s did no commission mine , and they did not explain what heat curve is to me, so I went into my settings they had set h/c at 14 my default setting on my nibe is 9 , this was two weeks ago when temp was down to 0+2 good time to commission,
got it down to 9 I leave it on all the time now have got it down to 7 now on h/c brilliant many thanks for videos regards john.
they are a con when you add the purchase price , installation cost , new radiators , hot water tank , immersion heater running cost, if you are middle age you would be a hundred before you made any gain over a gas boiler
no immersion heater present on modern units
@@UrbanPlumbers no heat in cold winters either in older houses
@@UrbanPlumbers so do you tell me would it be financially prudent for me to install them if I could in my 50s or 60s
@@UrbanPlumbers so what do use to heat water
Heat pump - it goes to 75c
Very good video
Thanks
Cop 3
Older houses that aren't well insulated, they don't work. If you have a newer house and can use solar panels to negate the running costs, its viable.. but on average, most experienced contractors I've spoken to don't want to touch them!
One comment from the video I find annoying is that the property is more comfortable, I’m sure it is but that’s not due to the Heat Pump but because the systems set up correctly, if they had installed a new boiler with the correct controls as in other videos on this channel the property would be just as comfortable. As an installer I’m often being told Heat Pumps make the home more comfortable than other types of heating and that’s just not true. I love Heat Pumps and am not bashing them in any way.
Correct.low temperature heating feels the same from Hp or gas boiler
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for the great videos please keep them coming !
What a good promo for Agenda 2030. 'A lot of scepticism about heat pumps'. I wonder why?
Despite every effort I have ever made using local knowledge, Check A trade etc. I have never managed to get anybody associated with plumbing who takes any care in the work they do. Damage, leaks, mess and then having to rewire a rats nest of bodged wiring. I don't doubt for one second the physics of heat pumps is completely accurate. The huge problem is how on earth can you find an installer who will work to the standards necessary to make the installation successful. Shame but this is the reality, for me at least.
True. It’s really hard to find proper installer but that doesn’t mean heat pumps as technology is bad. That’s mean most of the people don’t know how to design system to make them work .
If you are in the UK, search for the Heat Geeks map. These are people who actually know what they're doing
I have a 10 year old heat pump installed in a well insulated newish house in the far south of England. It's just about good enough to generate heat but it takes a log time to get up to temperature and the way to deal with that is to have the house at a near constant temperature except during the night. The radiators never get more than luke warm whereas with my old gas boiler they were sometimes too hot to touch. I doubted that a pump would work in the average not new house in the north of england. I am not sure tha the interview with the householder added anything to the analysis.
Yes ,they work very well in new builds ,but as you say not worth fitting in older housing stock,unless you retrofit state of the art insulation,and that’s not cheap if done properly.
You could have fitted a weather compensation control system, a lot cheaper than fitting a ASHP and would run the radiators at a low temp for much of the time.
“a long time to get up to temperature“ what is it about space heating that your system designer didn’t understand?
Wood burning stove £500. Burn anything you can get your hands on.
I do like them 🤣
We got one five months ago...£300 new! It has already saved us money, even accounting for the capital outlay! Pallets are easy to find and cut with a circular saw, or even a hand saw if you don't want to use the electric.
@@jimskirtt5717 There's already talk of banning non DEFRA approved stoves. Aand its illegal to burn waste in a domestic wood burner, including pallets. Lucky non of us would ever burn pallets????
@@georgearmour1154
They burn so well, don't they? I chop mine up into planks and corners. The corners last an hour. And they are left everywhere on a trading estate near me for the public to take - so many that I can't actually collect them. One business owner almost begged me to take them when I asked if they were for taking. I also have three years worth of conifer trees at the end of my garden. But they take work!
People who are keen to "go green" often are biased to being positive about there systems rather than challenging there own ideological flag waving.
One of the things about heat pumps that never get mentioned is that they are much lower outputs than a gas boiler. A gas boiler will be around 30 to 40Kw whereas the heat pump replacing it will only be about 10Kw. This means the heating has to be on all the time at a pretty much constant temperature where with your gas boiler you can turn it off when you’re out or asleep and quickly heat the house when you need to.
This one is 3.5kw
@@UrbanPlumbers 3.5 kw? So what size is the property?
@@geoffaries 72m2
@@geoffaries a tent!
I've had as ASHP since 2019. I've found the house much more comfortable as the heating is constantly on and not cycling between hot and cold. The house feels warmer as the radiators are constantly radiating. My running cost are lower and I'm not adding to local pollution.
Why would there be hotspots throughout the home with gas but not heatpump. Heat distribution should be down the radiators.
Very interesting. The problems I see are that the pay back time with gas still under 50% the cost of electricity per KW is too long. I think summer is a distraction, gas heating would be set low or off in summer. To be meaningful its got to pay back in 3 to 5 years without extra insulation. Yes extra insulation is part of the requirement, but it saves gas too so its not a specif saving to heat-pumps. In fact insulation would pay back faster on gas then on a heat-pump.
Sorry dude, me again - I have been made aware that Vaillant use the kWh in + kWh out/kWh in formula to get their so-called S/COP. This is surely WRONG?! The only truly meaningful figure is the kWh output/kWh power consumption, as this is the ratio between power out vs power in. Vaillant always seem to come up with a figure of 4 +/-, and this is misleading in so many ways, but mostly as far as heat out and cost for power in goes. Can you comment on this please?
Another great video, Good to see customers are experiencing those comfort levels we promote
All in the system design
Hi Liam, thanks for the comment! We need to do a vid about one of your insane efficient ones - that would shout up even more doubters.
February was very mild in the UK, even in Scotland. I'd like to see the figures for a continously cold winter, so thermal energy stored in the building and gained from the mild February temperatures does not buffer the results. Here in the Highlands of Scotland, average temperatures can be below zero for many weeks, and winters can last 5 months. With no mains gas, kerosene or LPG central heater boliers or wood stoves are essential and rather than spend thousands on kerosene every year we usually have to run our big 9kW stove 24/7 for weeks at a time in January and February to keep the house warm-ish. We are lucky as have a free supply of wood, free apart from all the time sourcing trees/logs, spiltting and stacking.
He could turn the heat pump off with 10 computers running in the house.That’s why he thinks it’s a great system.
Another interesting one Dracula, but with the age of that old geezer, he’s not going to see ‘payback’ for his HP & PV solar installs.
HPs are great, but if it’s anything like the gas installations currently in this country, God help us!!!.......Six week Course Cowboys that couldn’t put a nut in a chimps mouth.
They’ll never be able to regulate HP installation in the UK, though credit to ‘Skater Boy’ at least he’s trying - all be it to his large financial gain.
He deserves every £££ going to him. I will not let anyone say a bad word about Adam. No one else has made as much difference to the quality of heat pump installations as him. I agree however that course cowboy factories are still churning out engineers with a certificate and no clue. Scary really.
I thought you were supposed to burn all those sheds down?
@@UrbanPlumbers See, it’s OK if you’re in the rich south east part of England & Scotland also. You can get High End well paid work, but not in the rest of the country!!........Most Installers are competing with the Course Cowboys & it’s a race to the bottom.....The Domestic Heating Industry in most parts of the UK is fucked. People can’t afford HPs, so cheap, poorly installed Gas Boilers will be around for a very long time.
Also, UK homes are very poorly insulated, huge Heat Losses & with most homes on a 80Amp Leccy supply, it’s a non starter.
Skater Boy is just recycling knowledge, there’s nothing new in this game Dracula, these so called experts have their head so far up their own arse, they’ve not seen daylight in some time!!
How much did this entire system cost including insulating the house to a high standard? Electricity companies also charge a lot more for the day rate if you have cheap night rate tariff
Here in Canada where the coldest temps are regularly around -20C, I can still heat a 140m2 house with a 10kw split heat pump. Perhaps I may need a bit of backup element but that would be rare. My house is about 110m2 and I heat it with a 7kw. Unfortunately, there are no diagnostics like the Vaillant has to measure COP easily as no one sells this type of A2W HP here (I had to put it together myself) BUT, I can say that my electric bill is less than the combined electric and gas bills prior to installation.
I'm in Canada as well. From what I've heard, even at -20 the COP is around 1.3. How do you heat hot water?
Have you got the underground geothermal system in place?
No.
Mike seems to have the equivalent of a perpetual motion machine or gas must be really expensive in Canada, perhaps he was using LPG?
@@panc8ke324 I used to do it before ASHPs got inverters and the efficiency really increased. GSHPs have not really kept up at the same rate.
Nice - but these things need SO much pipework and electrical wiring - just look at the man's room with all the gubbins in!
I did a DIY install of two air source pumps over a year ago, and the total cost was under £900. I heat/cool two rooms, a kitchen which is 24 sq meters and lounge 20 sq meters, in a three bedroom house for about £0.55 per hour, depending upon outside temperature. I also spent a bit on automating the system which I engineered myself. It cannot be rocket science as I'm in my 70's. I still have a combi for hot water though and gas hob and oven. A hybrid system works for me.
I think that this debate concerns whole house ASHP's which heat radiators and provide DHW, you cannot purchase one monoblock ASHP for £900. I think that you are referring to the DX airconditiors which have a heating facility, so not the same system at all.
It’s all about installation costs!! Factor that in.. limited manufacturers warranty compared to a gas boiler…. Over 10 years a heat pump would bankrupt most families
warranty is 7 years. Your comments bankrupt my ability to keep replying.
The best heat pumps in terms of efficiency are:
*1)* water sourced (a stream, lake, etc);
*2)* ground sourced (pipes under the ground);
*3)* air sourced.
Numbers 1 and 2 are highly preferable.
With all of these it is best to have _low temperature underfloor heating._ So on a house renovation, a ground sourced heat pump and underfloor heating should be seriously considered.
That is right, but they can also change their radiators with low temp radiators, or install fan coils.
One little detail is the upfront cost even with the grant especially if you add a battery that'll only have a guaranteed working life of 10 years. If an ASHP is marginally cheaper the run than a gas boiler that's a *_long_* return on investment.
Many of us don't have that amount of cash to throw at something that takes that long to get it back.
And btw my neighbours ASHP sounds like a jet taking off. Imagine an estate full of the things.
Another thing that isn't often mentioned is maintenance and longevity costs. Can someone compare that to gas/ oil fired systems?
my guess was 3.2.
3.8/4.1 is very impressive.
The other factors are servicing costs and warranty. I have read these heat pumps are likely to last 20ish years, by that time the cost should have come down as well.
Also some people, like my parents, are on electric for heating. Their 2 bedroom bungalow January cost them £520 in elec! I continue explaining the benefits of a heat pump to them.. :)
If you are on direct electric then heat pump is a total no brainier
if they haven't got radiators, consider putting the most basic of air-to-air systems in, it makes such a difference for people in that situation, they are VAT free at the moment but no 5k BUS (does that apply for people without a boiler - I'd hope so!)
@@edc1569 I am one of these people, E7 and electric radiators (not even storage radiators) trying to decide what is the best course of action to take. I don't fancy having to rip up the floors and install a wet system. But I am worried air-to-air will not be good enough and the old mantra of pay cheap pay twice and I will end up needing a wet system anyway.
Get air to water if you can afford it. A much better set up that air to air. Still, A2A is miles bette Ethan direct electric. I assume you already have a direct electric cylinder.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for your reply Mr Urban, yes a very old immersion tank that needs ripping out and replacing with something modern as its completely inefficient and even has a plastic lid! I suppose the best thing to do is see if there is a Heat Geek approved installer near me who can come out and take a look at things.
Would it not be more efficient if on very cold days you switch off the heat pump and drive fan heaters and an immersion heater and rest the ASHP so don't overtax the pump . obviously im playing d advocate here .Heat pumps have a sweet spot where COP is highest.
Those are impressive numbers. Unfortunately for the environment but fortunately for my budget, I have pretty cheap gas on my current contract here in Belgium, about 7 times cheaper per kWh than electricity, so it doesn't make financial sense to switch to a heatpump or even just add one. I have a Vaillant Ecotec Plus combiboiler, highest I had to run it at was 46°C, but usually it's set at 42°C and rarely goes over its minimum power (I believe 5.8kW) so if my prices ever drastically change in favour of electricity I could probably get away with adding a 5 or 7kW Vaillant monoblock and keep the gas boiler for the raw power during the coldest days and warm water.
@@zlmdragon. I have the "social" rate as I'm on disability...
Gas consumption: less than 4€ct/kWh
Electricity comsumption: about 28€ct/kWh
Electricity injection: 9€ct/kWh
What I've done is I bought a gas generator - should break even in about ~2 years - Turns out a gas generator to produce electricity that then goes into a heat pump saves money over burning gas directly.
My experience is the same. It is electricity eating monster.
@@wmym Do NOT twist my words!
With a gas boiler 2.5kWh of gas becomes 2.3-2.4kWh of heat
With a heatpump that same 2.5kWh of gas becomes 1kWh of electricity which then becomes around 4kWh of heat, ánd you can generate electricity in a lot of different ways.
So no, I did NOT say it's an "electricity eating monster", quite the contrary, I just said the hug gap in my gas vs electricity prices make it more expensive for me.
@@Candisa oh, I am sorry, did I accidentally respond to your comment?
I was meant to respond to the experience of @jamespink4202. Sorry again
ERM don't you have to be CORGI QUALIFIED to make ANY SAFE adjustments - like IT'S THE LAW? And what 'adjustments' is he talking about? What about people who live in flats (like most people do in cities)? And ONE year, give it ten or 15 yrs to average out variations. Lastly who needs heating with GLOBAL BOILING? JUST OPEN YOUR WINDOWS FOR HEAT, NO?
Is there an optimum between the heat-curve and power consumption? The lower the heat curve, the more efficient the heat pump. but on the other hand, the longer the heat pump runs because it has to supply very little temperature. I had a heat curve of 0.23 but the pump ran > 12 hours a day a 1.2 kWh (December). Now set to 0.40 so that it turns off more. Which is better?
What could possibly go wrong ? 😂
At outside temperature of around 3 degrees C the COP drops because the air element in the outside box tend to freeze over. The cold snap you have described indicates that the air has not been very humid.. another reason why you may have seen high COP.. I would like to see the figures over a wetter winter where element freezing is a common possibility
Use a ground source heat pump.
insulation is only part of the puzzle. If you dont have a good air tightness then your heat pump will run more and cost more.
Dude, this has been one of the warmest winters the UK has ever had.
The opposite is true, but whatever
@@UrbanPlumbers why lie. It's been mild.
Lie? We had the coldest December since 2010. Average temperature for Dec was 1.8 below the average.
Autumn was very mild, but Dec and Jan were much colder than average for last 10 years
@@UrbanPlumbers
You're both wrong. The Met Office's CET shows that the average Winter temp for the past 20 years was 4.945 degrees C. This winter was 5.0 degrees C...so it's been virtually bang on typical, not warm nor cold.
But this installation was not "in the [average] UK". It was in one actual place, so you need the statistics for that part of the UK to get a fair picture of its performance.
I see nothing in this video that makes me want to switch away from my gas combi 🤷🏻♂️
keep it if nothing is wrong with it! However going forward we will all have to make a switch towards cleaner heat soures. Heat Pumps is just one of potential solutions.
“My son is a computer geek” translation “my son is mining crypto currency” and dad’s paying for it. Hopefully Son is paying some of his crypto to dad.
Tbh the amount of kit he has he’s probably putting out more heat than the heat pump is 😂
' Mining Crypto ' in the UK ???
Good Luck with the electricity bill ?
How long has he been doing it ?
Must cost a FORTUNE !!!?
🤔🧐
My bungalow has microbore central heating pipes plastered into the walls, and solid floors with real oak strip flooring above. The roof tanks have gone, and the former airing cupboard is now a tiled shower room, and the combi is in the attic. Air source heating does not seem like a sensible option. What do you think?
yes, it would be rather difficult to do if this is your situation
Would you say the best gradual transition from gas boiler to heatpump is to start off by just putting the biggest radiators in the house whenever you can, then eventually change the boiler? Can this strategy work? Or should we change the pipework to bigger say 22mm diameter at the same time?
then you would make the heat pump sellers go out of business! Air to air is freakishly cheaper as the plumbing and equipment cost is not there.
True, air to air has its places. However in my own home I am doing air to water. So much nicer inside and no noise or air being moved around.
@@kewage they certainly would not go out of business. Changing radiators and pipe work is one thing and installing a heating pump is totally another. Infact you might be doing them a favour as when it comes to quoting, its less work and they can put a higher markup on the remaining work which is the brains of the installer.
If you have condensing boiler then upgrading your system to to very low temp system will save money on running costs, as you could run the boiler, on heating, at 45 Deg.C. when funds allow and if theres sufficient room, the I would add an ASHP to the system, make it hybrid, and not remove the boiler.
@@geoffaries that is all true, but the biggest cost of the installation is converting the existing system into a low-temperature system and adding a high gain cylinder, not the heat pump itself.
This very well insulated small property. If you can heat it with a 1.25 kilowatt heatpump, heatloss is like 5 kilowatt max? You should also add that computer room into the equation, if that uses a constant 1 kilowatt, it effectively adds 20% to the heating of the house.
Still the yield of the system is impressive
the heat loss is around 4.5kW
@@UrbanPlumbers That's good to know. Many small/medium size houses could be brought down to this level of heat loss.
@@tlangdon12 I am in the process of dropping heat loss in my 3 bed house from 6 to 3.5 at the moment. It will take a bit of work though.
@@UrbanPlumbers That would be interesting to hear about.
What a load of nonsence. Lies. I have watched Skill builder do a video and he is not impressed. Your just doing the government's dirty work.. They are extremely expensive to install and are not efficient..
You watch a plasterer talk about heat pumps? Nice.
@@UrbanPlumbers that doesn't mean it's not true
Since when was the Skill Builder guy an expert on heating systems? Blind leading the blind lol
I was looking into the same heat pump, however I thought it could not be installed near a window (and this clearly is) so decided against it as that's the best place on my house. Have I got this wrong? Thanks.
Windows above are fine, there’s a protective zone to the sides that can’t have any openable windows or doors in.
@@liamknowles6658 brilliant, thanks for the info.
I hope Brians son is helping pay the electricity bill with all that BitCoin he's mining!
3.5-3.8?
The weather has been cold and the weather compensation you recently fixed to my boilers has performed similarly over past 3 months, interestingly saving little over the same period last year, unlike the previous quarter when we were averaging almost a 50% saving.
.However it has been more consistent and comfortable and on the few sunny days we have had has generally closed the system off for most of the day.
I am now buying gas on a tracker running at about 6p per kWh compared with my electric running at 25p per hour, so our next move to a heat pump is not warranted yet at these comparative rates for now. This of course will probably change again when the prices change in April.
Great video
Are you saying that when it every cold the savings are much smaller? Is the WC not running too high?
We need a follow up if possible ?
@@UrbanPlumbers Is this not how weather comp is in general? I.e the biggest savings will be when it's mild outside. But increased comfort and you can heat your whole property at once with a night time setback for the same cost as an on-off stat in cold weather
Not convinced at all. This isn’t really an option for most as you can’t get reliable well educated installers who a thallus know what they are doing.
One major thing with this film is the cost of the installation and the amount of insulation would have either been substantially subsidised or that chap has come into some good amount of dosh. Personally I’ve done the figures and using the Cop as a guide is absolutely ridiculous, not to mention we have had the warmest winter in years.
The SCOP is, for me, no different to the MPG in cars. No real life comparisons what so ever. A SCOP of 4 or 5 at zero degrees is a pipe dream. I know, I've been running a designed and fitted system in a well insulated house for 3 years. It takes a minimum of 1.5 hours to get up to speed and costs up to £2.50 + an hour any where near zero degrees, house temp setting 20 degrees. I have never spoken to any one who has one running and says they are cheaper than gas. I've seen plenty of people on the net stating how cheap they are, usually selling or fitting them. The only good thing is, if I get my skates on I can fit a gas boiler and hopefully the massive rads will give me heat at a decent price.
Great video - but you can’t really ignore the significantly higher install costs. You need to factor them in over the life of the product. Maintenance also more costly.
the typical install cost of 150l cylinder and 3.5kW unit is around 10-12K less the grant, so the client pays around £5-7k. The life span of a well-installed and set-up system will be twice the life span of most boilers. Maintenance at the moment is double of the gas boiler, but with greater adoption of HPs and more training, it is bound to go down.
@@UrbanPlumbers Really appreciate your proactive responses to comments, fair play 👍 I just wonder, is that quoted cost including the battery install? Many thanks.
True, but then you also need to guess the relative cost of gas vs electricity over the same timespan.
What maintenance ?
Fans break especially when it rains a lot
The opening comment provides the answer as to why this customer prefers the heat pump, he says "that he doesn't have to touch its controls, whereas he was constantly adjusting the controls on his gas boiler" he probably means system controls as the gas boiler only gas a temperature thermostat. So his main benefit will be from the weather compensation control system that Vaillant recommend, which probably could have been retrofitted to his condensing boiler, depending on make and model. Many of us have been recommending weather compensation for years and finally it seems that Building Regs have caught up. I love heat pump technology, but they're not a cost, or even a environmentally friendly, solution. Hybrid systems have more merit, but still a long payback.
What is he running on the computers? Mining? tks
No idea!
I suspect, this property is well insulated. Much of the housing stock in the uk is below par for insulation.
Great video - but you can’t really ignore the significantly higher install costs. You need to factor them in over the life of the product. Maintenance also more costly.
All true
True you also can't ignore the gas price will keep rising and the fact the heat pump does not create co2
If you fit solar panels you almost get your heating and electricity for very little cost
@@terryfinch9319 true. You also can't ignore the fact that solar and heating are generally operational at opposite ends of the year in the UK, so you're not going to use one to offset the other.😉
@@terryfinch9319 We still generate a significant amount of our electricity from natural gas, the cost of electricity has always been significantly higher than the cost of gas and I don’t see that changing if we’re going to power all heating, transport etc form electricity.
There is a lot of gas available via fracking or the North Sea. It’s just not very popular with the political classes.
Maintenance higher?
The client is not being ecological to his pocket,he will never see payback,
Thanks for all the videos, really has helped open my eyes to much more efficient heating design which is now more important than ever. I hope you don’t mind but I’ve sent you a message through your company website as I’m very local and would love to see if I could give you a hand sometime (free of course) just to gain a bit of experience with the actual heat pump units. (Have done awakening, mastery and kiwis course a few years ago so would be helpful)
Thanks
Chris
Coppertop heating 🎉
I am actually looking for prople that could help me with installs in the area. Lets talk.
Love to meet up or just chat on the phone. Am only up the road in fleet and will make time when it suits you 🫡
Sorry I can't quite believe they would be any cheaper, as it is run by electricity which is more expensive. So there again if you are fairly well off you can afford to have a heat pump and run it.Our boiler has just packed up so we are having another efficient boiler we wouldn't be able to afford to have a heat pump fitted. Any way I still wouldn't be convinced to change.
it is chepaer to run even with 3 times more epxensive electricty. with COP of 3.8 it is exactly 49% chepaer to run than a gas boiler.
Thank you for replying back.
When I get the time, I would like to see the calculations against a full electric UFH system (which is what I have - I'm a heating engineer). Obviously, my install costs were zero - just paid for WarmUp foil mats and air stats in every room (x10) - 3-bed detached bungalow. It's been in 15 years with obviously zero maintenance, servicing or replacement costs. My only cost is the electricity itself which has gone from 8p/kWh to 30p/kWh now. I use 8000 kWh on heating, and 5000 kWh on everything else. My annual bill (due to the crazy energy costs) is just shy of £4,000, but was £1,100 when I put the system in.
In the Uk the cost per kWh is 34p.
@@geoffaries
No.
At the last energy price cap increase in April 2022, electricity per kWh increased by 54% taking the price of electricity from £0.21 per kWh to £0.28 per kWh. It WILL average 34p per kWh...but even that is an average. Mine is still 30p per kWh.
Source: energyguide.
Pretty easy to calculate, decide your 8000kwh yearly usage by 3.6 or 4 to get an idea of how much electric you would use with a good heatpump install.
@@inh415
No, I mean the complete costs calculation. For example, to install dry UFH 'system' throughout a average home costs in the region of £10,000. But this is the only (capital) cost that there is - there are no ongoing costs, like there would be for a heat pump heating system (providing UFH). The dry UFH heating system would go for many, many years untouched. So, say after 10 years the dry UFH heating system has cost £0 in maintenance, the heat pump ongoing costs would be well into four figures. So although the heat pump system would be cheaper to run on electricity-consumed basis, it would be MUCH more expensive on maintenance & servicing costs. It would be interesting to see the data. I can state that for a dry UFH electric heating system:
Total install cost £10,000 (10 x room heating with air stats)
10 years of electricity consumed £30,000
Total £40,000
But I don't know what the heat pump system (ongoing) costs would be, and can only guess the electricity consumed:
Total install cost £20,000 (wet UFH and air source heat pump)
10 years of electricity consumed £20,000 (guessed at £2,000 a year)
Maintenance & servicing £?
Total £40,000 plus maintenance & servicing
So it would look (at these very rough costs) that a heat pump system would be MORE after 10 years than an electric heating system. If so, that's a pretty damning indictment of heat pumps - that they can't even beat an electric heating system on costs. But I'm only guessing as we don't have the data. Listening to people who have had heat pumps for a few years already, many of them state that the thing is costing them a fortune, and much more than their old gas heating system ever did. As a heating technician of some 48 years in experience, I wouldn't go near a heat pump, as heating system reliability is based on simplicity. A good heating system is there to keep you warm, not as some money-saving device. It should be efficient and reliable. Any heating system which is complex and has issues surrounding its future ongoing costs should be avoided. Yes, a heat pump system may be reliable (may), but when it fails to provide, basic electricity kicks in. Then there is the issue of the cost of parts, and the technicians' labour costs to fix and service it. Reading my heating trade magazine this month, I was astounded by how much of it is given up to heat pumps, as though they are the answer to the future of heating! Gas is the answer - burning it to generate electricity! But that's another argument completely.
@@feistyphysicist I see. You can make a very good estimate of the electricity cost, so in your above example £30,000 electricity cost over 10 years should be between £8,333 and £7500 unless a cowboy installs it.
From what I have seen servicing costs are around £200 per year, so another £2000 over 10.
Not sure what the installation costs of wet Vs dry UFH costs are. I would assume that they should be pretty similar as most of the cost is in the labour and floor makeup rather than a load of pipe Vs wires. Wouldn't be surprised if the wet system is cheaper at scale TBH.
£10k for the heatpump itself is probably about right for an average home, however then you get £5k MCs grant, say £15k total install costs and £7.5k electricity usage and £2k servicing. £24.5k total running costs for £10 years.
How long did your old fridge last? At least 10 years before mechanical failure unless you were unlucky I suspect. Just a small heatpump running reliability 24/7.
Heatpumps are very simple devices. The only thing I am suspicious of is the high capital cost for the unit itself. I lived in Vietnam for 8 years and while there I bought 4x high end Panasonic mini split air-conditioners for about £1.5k including installation ( ok labour is very cheap out there) if I had wanted ones that could heat as well they would of cost about 50% more. That's some serious economy of scale, or company's selling heatpumps in the UK are having a bit of a laugh. Only difference for a heatpump designed for UK damp weather IMO is the outdoor heat air exchanger needs to be oversized to reduce icing up.
Much colder Scandinavian countries have up to 90% heatpump adoption IIRC and they are far cheeper to buy.
I have a question, when the outside temperature is -15,are thermopopms efficient?
Is there any additional recommendation?
Thank you .
What an extremely interesting video. Thanks to you and Brian.
Thanks for watching!
I would like to know what the internal temp was? Also how quickly it can get up to temp required. Under about 22c my wife’s hands and feet go Blue with cold. (Due to medical condition)
21c inside
Good video but the price of a HP install is still way too expensive compared to gas central heating. Until the price of heat pumps decrease along with the unit price of electricity, gas is still cheaper when you factor in all the costs. BTW, what are the annual service costs? Thanks
I don’t agree. Well designed system with a gas boiler on weather compensation and new cylinder is not much cheaper than a heat pump. As a matter of fact I have i installed a number of gas systems that were as expensive as heat pumps.
The trouble is a lot of gas installations are cheap as they are not designed, installed and specced correctly. Also cheap on off co tools and s plans are still used.
William you are out of date with pricing- British Gas are installing Heat pumps from £3000 and Octopus from £2500- which compared to my install 9 years ago is excellent- I paid £9200 but then for 7 years I received the govt rhi which came to around £5200 repayment to me. I love my airsource heat pump and have had no issues with it- whats servicing?? Nothing to do really- I check for leaves etc inside the unit- never anything in it, check the filter for dirt once a year and thats it- so I have saved over £1000 just by not having a gas boiler to service for the past nine years- only a fool wouldnt have a gas boiler serviced obviously as gas is dangerous- poisoning and explosions. Oh and anyone thinking the heat from airsource isnt good enough well you can now get high heat airsource heat pumps too- not many homes which couldnt benefit from this technology. Only homes which arent properly insulated will struggle to heat up- but then these are the homes which are contributing to global warming which we need to either get rid of or have them improved!
@@michaeldavis7199 Yes but these companies will only tackle a specific, very straightforward swop-out install. Low hanging fruit. Anything outside their set parameters which would be more costly they won't do (yet). Extra pipework, emitters, and HW tank, all add complexity and cost, before even getting to insulation.
my understanding of the residential heat pump systems was that it needed a heat recovery unit aswell as the A+ BER(insulation rating for house) as you couldnt reteofit them into older homes because of draught leakage this is based off Ireland btw
id be interested to see the WB/DB temps for that region as if based in the Irish and British isles humidity is going to be a key performance factor!
ive seen loads of issues with resi heatpumps but i do blame poor installation/design as opposed to equipment itself.
I have been watching a thread on a village FB site where someone was asking about people’s experiences involving heat pumps as an alternative to oil fed boilers in this large village that has no gas. The consensus was don’t get one with people complaining about being constantly cold and the high running cost. Only one person said it was good. The village is made of of mainly older properties many with solid walls.
I think it’s mainly down to them probably not being fitted to a correctly designed system or not set up correctly. The system design and radiator sizing is the most important thing with efficiency and internal temps. Not all installations are created equally and a heat pump is much less forgiving than a gas/oil/lpg boiler
send them a link to this video. HPs can absolutely work well and be reliable and cheap to run - the key is though to understand heat loss of the property and design the system and size the unit accordingly.
@@UrbanPlumbers I think that is the main problem with heat pumps. It is making sure that the installer is properly qualified. A reasonably competent plumber could install a heat pump but it's the design of the heating system that counts.
I replaced an oil boiler with an air source heat pump in a detached Victorian solid walled house. The house has never been so warm feeling (thermostat is set lower than we used to have it). Running costs are slightly less so far, but we used to have an hour in the morning and three in the evening, whereas now it's warm all the time. Couldn't be happier with ours. We did choose a supplier with a track record in the same type of house as we live in.
@@paulbennett2929
Plumbers designing heat pump system? Please no! They are great for drains and bathrooms and the likes.
"terrace homes and flats - are not suitable for air pumps" Daily Mail: so it seems they are only for the super rich who live in a detached or semi detached mansion.
Flats are difficult. Terraced houses perfectly doable
Great update thank you.
No problem 👍
Hot spots before..... So your old system was not up to the job or not installed properly etc.
So when the temperature gets well below zero... It works very efficiently! Nope as it is temperature dependent! The colder the worse it gets....
Heatpumps work with a much lower deltaT flow-to-return. To get that lower deltaT in an existing system without changing radiators the flow must go up quite a bit (this is also why sometimes pipes need to be upgraded), which does help with reducing hotspots that couldn't be dialed out with a high deltaT, low flow setup.
Yes, an air-to-water heatpump becomes less efficient when the outside temperature goes down, but heatpumps have come a long way in reducing this effect and lowering the treshold temperature where burning gas would be more economical. Nowadays, it needs to be well into the negatives before the COP would plummet below 2.5-3, if the system is designed/adapted correctly ofcourse.
@@Candisa is that due to the global warming Ponzi scheme scam?. We are told we are all going to die due to warming when in fact this is not happening. Follow the money...
@@TheJon2442 I literally live in a house that has flooded 3 times in the last decade, each time slightly worse, with a history of one minor flood once in 25 years over the century before. Keep your tinfoil hat crap for yourself and grow a pair of working eyeballs. Also please don't reproduce.
@@Candisa er a little real research and you will find that there have been real floods in the past and far more extreme weather... The middle ages there were real floods in Europe and in 1953 the Netherlands was under water
Absolutely true. That's why they need a 4kwh back up heater. If I ran mine 24/7 like some suggest I would have been £1500.00 per month this winter. I only run it for less than 3 hours in the morning to warm the house. I then run my wood burner or I couldn't afford to heat the house. I honestly wish I had gone to tank gas instead
17kw+ of heat from the computers are being used daily in a small two bed so of course that will make the heat pump appear much more efficient than it would have been with more normal usage.
Very interesting video, so thank you for that! So it would have been good to understand what your customer is paying per kWh for the £6 per day usage in the winter for heating etc. From what I can see, the heat source pump system is effective, if you have a very well insulated house. It all sounds overwhelmly positive - until people talk about that actual figures - £6 per day to heat a 70m2 area. As soon as you have an older less well insulated house - then the problems begin
Surely the same issues with insulation occur with a gas boiler.... If you're (almost literally) throwing money out of the window anyway, end result is still more expensive.
But I do get what you're saying - which is presumably on the difference between £/kwh or the underlying energy source.
However, this should be mostly offset easily on even a meagre heat pump efficiency of, say, 300%, plus the lower servicing costs, not burning fossils etc and the value of a more consistent temperature.
@@mariuscheek The issue is different with a gas boiler, because a 20kW gas boiler will make the radiators red hot and heat your house regardless of the wasted energy with a lack of insulation - it will also heat quickly on demand. The aroTHERM range of air to water heat pumps shown in the video, output between 3.5 - 7KW - So you need a very well insulated, air tight house to be able to use them and the heat builds up more slowly.
At face value the guy in the video is paying £6 a day to heat a 70m2 well insulated house - this seems a lot to me for the current investment. He then plans to make further savings using a battery to store off peak cheaper electricity - meaning further and ongoing investment as the battery will need replacing every decade.
@@CliveSmithy Ah, yes I see the issue better now, thank you.
However, just to explain my ignorance, I have lived for decades in stone and brick built houses, where to feel warm you really needed to warm the fabric of the building up and then keep it there. Even living in a Victorian flat in north london, there's still enough proper mass that it's actually cheaper to leave the heating on all the time and let the thermostat take care of it. And the feel of a solid brick wall radiating its heat is more comfy as well for a lower air temperature. It also means that if one fancies just opening the windows to freshen the place up, it's not a big deal.
But I can see that in a house without these heatsinks of stone and brick, you are basically just heating the air - and for that to not dramatically alter you need windows shut and crazy insulation.
For me, when I move into a place I look at what the walls are actually made of. If they are primarily stud walls, I'll set timers accordingly.
But if walls are mainly brick/stone I want them warmed up to stop them sucking energy, so I leave the heating on all the time, governed by a thermostat - and then a TRV in each room.. Plus I turn down the default output of the boiler by ~10 degrees to avoid overly hot air temps
I have reckoned that this actually saves me 10-20% vs having a system run full tilt before my wake up and before I get home from work. The big 'whooshes' are more expensive than trickling energy into the heatsink (the walls). And my bills (usage) have confirmed this for at least 15 years.
re batteries, I think any extra cost of these can be written off as insurance against power cuts (depending on the battery system installed)
And yes, these things do take investment, but if you have a boiler coming up for replacement, then deduct that cost (~£1500-£2500 maybe?) from the cost of converting to heat pump, and it's pretty even stevens I'd say, especially considering the potential benefits.
3.5 ? Heat-pumps are not the golden bullet the Gov wants IMHO.
Where's all the extra electric required coming from? more so when you factor in electric cars! Not enough produced or capacity in the distribution grid.
A number of installs I have quoted have fallen flat on their face when the DNO (electric board) said NO! not enough juice available, most of the time in rural areas and latterly in town too.
what extra electrics? This unit needs around 1kW of power. That is 8 times less than electric shower needs. Cars get charged overnight when demand is lower.
All of those are just engineering challenges that can be resolved with technology and planning. Nothing impossible.
Never had a DNO say no to any of my installs and I do them weekly.
Very helpful video! When I compare this to the running cost of a Viessmann 200-W gas boiler we install, over the same period, I can see that the running costs are remarkably similar! Maybe 15% lower in favour of the heat pump?
Without Solar PV, the savings won't be enough to offset the lower purchase price of the most efficient gas boiler sold! For those who cannot fit/ afford a Arotherm+, I'm glad to see we can still offer a boiler that can come close. For everyone else, a heat pump installed correctly is clearly the way of the future!
£ to £ roi what are you on about?
@@lemmykilmister450 Yes, running cost and cost to purchase and install combined, over the 12 year warranty period. If you don't include the cost of Solar PV and batteries, and use the cheapest possible electricity and gas tracker tariffs, a Viessmann 200 is still far cheaper to buy, install and run!
Are you counting the cost of just the HP or the whole system? as the system upgrades are a one-time cost (and agnostic to the heat source). The heat pump itself is about ~£5-6K of the total cost, which is mostly covered by the BUS scheme currently.
@@BenIsInSweden Most will need to change or install a DHW cylinder (We default to Joule. Mixergy adds another £1K) and purchase double/ triple panel and fin radiators. Not to mention upgrade microbore piping to a minimum of 15mm. On average, you're looking at £4-7K over and above the cost of a Vaillant AroTherm+ all inclusive when we've quoted for them.
A V200-W is £3.5K installed with 12 year warranty. Assuming annual savings of £150 in favour of a heat pump, it would take a while to recover the difference in cost without Solar PV.
@@singlendhot8628 Again.. those are costs that outlive at least 1 heat pump and have a benefit for other heat sources including Gas. The properly sized rads will probably live through over 3 or more heat pumps on the same install.
Hi I pay 55p per kw during the day, your figure seems bit low,
What’s the all in cost for the installation shown?.
Good clear presentation on video,
I’ve had air source for last 4 years ,there are maintenance costs you haven’t covered.
We installed 2 heat source pumps on new houses £14k a piece with underfloor heating on the ground floor . It took several days before the house was anywhere near 18 degrees , then it needed to run constant to maintain that temperature , the radiators are only warm to the touch so don't expect instant heat change in the house , the new owner is already talking about getting a gas boiler installed as his energy bill for winter was through the roof
That’s what happens when the installer doesn’t know how to design the system. Those units can’t be chucked in like gas boilers.
The plumbers installed it according to the company that provided it , they commission it to approve it was all correct , an extra pump was added later to increase the flow to the 1st floor, Samsung system, are they any good ? . It wouldn't surprise me if the wrong system was recommended .
Samsung would only show a layout of the plant room and type of connection required. No manufacturer gets involved in the actual system design - heat emitters, heat loss or pipe sizing.
This is down to the installer or designer to size the unit, pipework and heat emitters correctly. Sadly most don’t have a clue how to do that which is a real tragedy.
The fact they had to install additional pumps says it all - pipe work no sized correctly.
We repair and correct a lot of systems like that and usually improve efficiency the units dramatically and drop bills by a mile.
Jason your comment is typical of what many owners of ASHP's are finding, this could be the next big mis-selling scandal to hit the UK and a government mis-selling, not necessarily an installer one, far worse than the dash to deisel promoted by labour.
@@UrbanPlumbers good excuse
The colder it gets the less efficient because you can't pull more heat out of the air than there is already there.
of course he can , he is a descendant of alchemists and has discovered perpetual motion
I guessed 3.5! Very impressive result! That said, the Growatt battery is going to be very problematic in a few years - it's a terrible brand - take a look at their Trustpilot scores - the stuff of nightmares!
I won't spoil it by sharing how much the Viessmann 200-W costs to run ;)
At least it’s installed neatly 😂
After reading Trustpilot reviews, all bad reviews about mobile app not been very good and nothing about hardware 🤔
@@kkovaltsuk Try calling their technical support line for help! :)
Ok going for it. Nope. To complicated😂
Glad to see a new video. Was wondering if Szymon was ok.
Yes, all is good here. I have been extremely busy so didn't have time to post videos in the last 2 months.
£10K for ASHP and radiators
-£5K Grant
-£3K for a replacement Gas boiler
=£2K Actual additional nett cost.
ASHP has kept our home much more evenly heated throughout winter.
The full electric cost in Feb was £87 +Gov grant. Octopus ‘COSY’ tariff (ASHP users only)
And the shower is much better.
All tax payers are paying for this
If that is what that good, then why we (tax payer) need to pay for this?
@eltonfung taxpayers pays 100x that subsidising big gas and oil. Also if we don’t lower co2 emissions we will pay billions in fines
@@UrbanPlumbers I feel frustrated knowing that a significant portion of my annual tax payment goes towards subsidizing this industry. It's amusing how people are encouraged to replace their advanced Combi Boilers at home with a bulky and cumbersome water tank and such heatpump
I'm curious if these products would still be marketable without political subsidies.
@@teanau11 are you serious?! Big oil and gas have been given 20 billion more over the last 8 years than the renewable sector. In comparison, this scheme costs tax payers 450 million over 3 years and cuts our energy use per household by at least 50% or more, and also cuts co2 emissions by 70%.
If you want to be angry at government spending your tax money in a wasteful ways, this is not the one.
Live in an area of -30C normal temperature - house is 100% heated via the AIr Source Heat pump: has been for 20 years.
Awesome
and yet UK with average temperatures of 5C in the winter and everyone thinks here that heat pumps is a scam.
@@UrbanPlumbers Problem is UA-cam negative vids - reinforcement bias and bad information.
@@UrbanPlumbers Oh -
Here is a vid I made somewhat about heat pumps (and hockey)
ua-cam.com/video/ZkO9sU0Lf8k/v-deo.html
I lose any remaining faith in people of the UK reading the comments here.
@@UrbanPlumbers My family and I are from Cape Breton Island - google that - Over the past 5 years basically every single home has installed one or more "mini split" heat pumps.
The reason is - they work perfectly and save a great amount of money.
I suspect that with climate change in the UK and more super hot days in the summer it would be very desirable to add cooling to centuries old houses.
I offer a week's accommodation to any UK residents skeptical of heat pumps.
Mothers got one in a barn, it's running cost is in the £450 a month in electric, she's got solar and its about half that with the electric. I don't see the savings.
@@zlmdragon. Are comparing engines to air source pumps? Or we comparing climates to climates, because an air source pump has to work really hard in the northern hemisphere in comparison to equator?
@@zlmdragon. So your ignoring external temperatures then. Just to put it in comparison, my mothers barn is highly insulated under strict building regs. Heat pump has to work a lot.
In the interests of a fair comparison,
I’d be interested to see a gas boiler or even an oil boiler running modern tech like weather comp, high insulation and large radiators...
Surely a flow rate of 45 degrees on a gas boiler would be cheaper to run than an Ashp?
Also it would be a lot easier to modernise Britain’s heating systems rather than replacing them
It can’t be. A modern weather comped boiler can only go to around 95% efficiency. A heat pump on 35c can do 500% so still way cheaper than even the best gas boiler.
I will be showing it soon as I am in the process of installing such a system with a heat pump and a gas boiler at my own place
The fair comparison, I would point out, is the comment about even heat throughout. That is relatively easily achieved with low flow temps regardless of what’s ‘driving’ it.
The WC curve on my viessmann boiler gets to around 45 degrees at 0 outside. 1930s solid wall house. Doesn’t struggle at all, even when we had the cold snap.
My concerns stem from anecdotal stories I’ve heard about high running costs in big open plan houses. Stemming from the fact that electricity is still 3x the cost of gas. So the system needs a minimum cop of 3 just to break even. Combined with high installation costs.... it’s no wonder people are still sceptical.
However technology is improving all the time, these Valliant units seem a lot better than units even 3-5 years ago.
@@lewisjones5067 I don’t think it differs too much to when condensing boilers came about. Plenty were happy to leave flow at 75 with no effort, and some went the extra mile to actually make use of the potential savings.
The problem that’ll need overcoming is slap dash installs that aren’t set up to save anything, and homeowners who don’t fully understand low flow temps. I don’t see the high running costs being a problem decent installers will face.
That said, I’ll be handing on to my gas boiler for a little while longer…
@@lewisjones5067 the average heating system install in the UK is pretty awful, so I'm not surprised that the average experience isn't great.
Impressive efficiency but we've found the install costs and managing customer expectations an issue - obviously geeks like us know how to manage the system but the average person just wants to put the heating on and not have to think about it.
thats exactly how the system operates here - I set it up for the customer and he hasn't touched it, not even once!
@@UrbanPlumbers fair enough, I just think the costs need to come down, I work for a company that manages 19000 council houses - ASHP installs have been costing 8-10k and customer feedback is mixed so we haven't done any for a while. I suppose in the future we won't have a choice, whatever the solution it will have to be one that doesn't involve gas.
I love my Vaillant heat pump. I have a 7kW system with no buffer. My heat curve is set to 0.60 but I was advised to leave adaptive heat curve off because of efficiency. I have tried playing with the heat curve but I think having it set to 0.60 is perfect. I’ve seen a COP of 3.6 through the cold spells from mid Jan to now. I’m paying 44p per kWh day rate but I do have a night rate of 12p per kWh. I’ve just bough at 36kWh home battery and I also have a small solar array of 1.5kW. I’m upgrading my solar and adding a further 2kW in the coming months. Im also an EV owner and my wife has one as well so we are high energy users but it’s still cheaper than gas and fuelling the cars with petrol or diesel. Love your content Urban Plumber and thank you so much to this kind gentleman for sharing his thoughts. Im so glad I don’t have anyone at home running all them computers 24/7. Eeeeek!
It aspparnty costs him around £6-7 er day in cold weather . His house is well insulated [+ floor isliely concrete ] . In the cold months his bill would be £210 per moth. . My hoUse is twice the size of his and used gas .& Electric - it is fairly well insulated [ gene C] . My boiler iOS a condensing one and I have old radiators . My bill for gas and electricity - -even with the current high costs - my average bill is less than £250 per month to heat aka light house twice the size .- So Im not very convinced about the claimed savings .
Urban , your work is absolute quality and I enjoy your vids.
For a cost comparison firstly what was the installation cost as there is a new cylinder and HP.
Was it a combi gas boiler and how much to swap it for another?
Why was the owner constantly fiddling with the boiler and how were there hot spots with the boiler but not now ?
10 - 12 p per kWh for gas , 30-35 p per kWh electricity , but let’s call it cop and then we can say the hp is more efficient. Hmmm?
With a COP of 4 you are getting 4kwh of heat for every 1kwh the pump consumes. The heat pump is performing so efficiently that it is still cheaper to run than a gas boiler even as you pay 3x more for your electricity.
Lower temp heating means more even temperature throughly the property. Also the system is always on meaning that you don’t get overheating problems or jumps of temperature. Boilers are usually hugely oversized, cycling all the time making the proper rather uncomfortable with changing temperatures.
Viessmann 200 is an exception here with a very similar performance to a well designed and installed heat pump
@@danpye1991 Calling it cop is just smoke and mirrors, it’s all theoretical..
Running a HP 24/7 at 30p per kWh as opposed to 10p per kWh heating on demand . It doesn’t appear cost effective to install or run , more a case of virtue signaling.
@@UrbanPlumbers All modern gas boilers modulate to achieve a set temperature. Whereas a HP is designed to run 24/7 .
I fail to see the running costs being beneficial.
@@haydnlawrence8167 cop is just the ratio of power in to heat out, it's not some abstract theory. Sure a heat pump system doesn't always make sense for every install, we all realise that. It's like the EV argument, for many they make no financial sense, but for some they save them a fortune. I would have thought a pensioner who's at home a lot of the day and would benefit from a stable temperature is an example of the later.
Very interesting. what I'm really interested but does not seem to be in public domain is how reliable is the unit its self ie pump fans circuit boards and heat expansion etc what are the issues in real life we have an idea ball park for gas central heating talk.😊
I think it’s fantastic, however this install 15/20k? And also let’s imagine every house in the street does this, there is no way in hell the mains can cope.
This install was less than 10k
And yes the mains can cope, the unit only needs 1500 watts to run at full power, less than your wife’s hair dryer 🤣🤣🤣
@@UrbanPlumbers Did this include a government grant so 15k less the grant or 10k before the grant
the daily mail panic - you know what should have broken the mains - all those 9kW electric showers everyone started installing years ago
@@UrbanPlumbers that include the installation and big radiators plus solar panels and bat . back up?
Do we have cavity wall insulation on this bungalow? Obviously it's also tiny and son is burning 17kwh a day on computer heat. The amount of insulation is the key here that is never mentioned. Most UK housing stock has solid walls. Also you need to convince us of energy savings that includes depreciation of all the eco kit in there. Must be about 20k of kit min - the inverter and battery will be essentially useless in 8 years and need replacing which is about another 10k. He atill seems to be paying about the same 10 pound a day after all of that? It's above average for typical UK house. So what's the payback time on this system?
no offense but for the noise, you need to ask the neighbors...
there aren't any around this house. We can ask my neighbors in my next video as I have the same unit.
You are wrong, gas is 7.9 but electricity is four times that and gas you run for a few hours but a heat source 24 hours seven days a week I got rid of this exact system my winter electricity bil, went from 450 to 3400 , so how is that cheaper
The cop was so big because the heat coming off the sons bitcoin mining equipment heated that house (tent) 70m2 bungalow needs about 4 rads total to heat that property lol. Fan will 100 percent start to get louder. Get a 4 bed detached install and go back in a year when its due service and see running costs then. Again he mentioned he had to tweak gas boiler, probably because it wasnt serviced correctly as expansion was flat. In his 2 bed small bungalow i could of got that gas boiler on 50 degree flow all day long
Well the trick is to run it when there is warmth
Don't expect it to be efficient to warm up your home in the morning on frost days
But when the frost days have sunny afternoons, and the ambient air goes to 8C+ , well you can grab that heat and pull it inside
In the morning on frosty days is exactly when it is needed. Waiting until there is warmth would mean not running it for days or weeks here in the North of Scotland. The things are being sold as heaters, cold weather heaters. I could save a fortune and just run it during the summer.
Heat pumps are OK, but the FIRST thing to do is insulate the hell out of your home! Why spend money every year paying for heating/cooling when good insulation means it's barely needed?