Why 'Healthy Boundaries' Can Make Scapegoat Abuse (FSA) Worse
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
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"You need to set boundaries!" is not always the 'miracle answer' it's made out to be in the Self-Help world. Specifically: Adult Survivors of Toxic, Dysfunctional, and Narcissistic Families that scapegoat will typically hear they need to work on themselves and learn how to "have boundaries" with problematic family members. Many survivors enter therapy to learn "healthier communication skills" so as to "get along better" with toxic family members. Family Systems expert Rebecca C. Mandeville explains why this strategy can backfire due to the toxic family system's unconscious (or conscious) resistance to meaningful individual and systemic change when the current (dysfunctional but familiar) homeostasis is threatened. Read this educational channel's full disclaimer: www.scapegoatr...
🔥Trigger Warning: If you feel activated watching videos on this channel, turn it off and perhaps return to it at another time or consult a licensed Mental Health professional. Viewer comments may contain descriptions of child abuse and neglect and can also be activating.
💡Rebecca C. Mandeville is a thought leader and pioneering researcher in abusive family systems and the poorly understood, under-recognized phenomenon of what she named (during the course of her original Family Systems research) 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA). You can visit her website and access FSA adult survivor resources at scapegoatrecov.... (Scroll down to access more FSA resources, including 'buy' links to my book, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed'.)
✅ You can purchase my best-selling book on family scapegoating abuse (FSA), 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed', on Amazon: amzn.to/3sEaqcx. Or buy from your favorite online book retailer via this secure Universal Buy Link (UBL): books2read.com....
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💡Learn more about my work on FSA, my book, and my FSA recovery coaching services, visit scapegoatrecov....
💡DISCLAIMER ONE: This channel's focus is on understanding and recovering from what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) and is GENERAL and INFORMATIONAL in its scope. It is NOT a substitute for clinical assessment or treatment. It is suitable for both Adult Survivors and Clinicians. I am unable to advise you on your specific family situation. READ FULL DISCLAIMER: www.scapegoatr...
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🔥 COPYRIGHT NOTICE: My videos focus exclusively on understanding and recovering from what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) during the course of my academic and clinical research. THESE VIDEOS ARE COPYRIGHTED AND CANNOT BE SAMPLED AND USED FOR OTHER PURPOSES.
🔴 NEED HELP NOW? Being scapegoating can be extremely traumatizing. If you feel in danger of harming yourself, this is a list of international hotlines where you can speak to someone: blog.opencouns... For more resources, go here: www.scapegoatr...
Copyright 2024 | Rebecca C. Mandeville | All Rights Reserved
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Actually I already have your book. I did sign up for the affirmations. I also read your article about radical acceptance vs. forgiveness.
@@TWILLIE639 Yey!!
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I've added your book to my Amazon basket
My mother passed away yesterday. What a mixed bag of emotions.
Do you ship to Costa Rica?
You described my return to being near family after being gone for 25 years. I was treated like a pariah and abused until I had that moment of screaming and pondering that I should end it all. But also like you said, I had 20 years of experience being accepted elsewhere in the world and being a respected professional, so I clung to that and got away. It is important to understand the motivations of the abusers. As victims, society often assumes we did something to deserve the abuse. After all, it's family, family means love, and if you're not being loved by your loving family, then something must be wrong with you, the victim. This simply is not the case. It did break my heart that my family could not see me as the loving, funny, remarkable person that I have become. However, the moment I realized that I would never be seen that way and that the battle by them to keep me in the scapegoat role and my efforts to stop it would become ferocious was the moment I knew I had to separate myself from them for good. It wasn't fun, but it's been one more step in this amazing journey of taking care of myself and achieving a happy and fulfilled life. Thanks, again, for stating the truth about these toxic family members.
Very well written, it’s my story too. Are they still stuck in the same place and you moved on. Mine are in a small town where not much changes. I can never return to how it was. It is sad and how great if it could be different but it never will be and accepting that is all we can do ❤❤
💞
Thanks for that comment.
I left my family.
But the only family member I kept a little bit was my daughter.
But the family is in contact with her and she is among the family unit where I am the scapegoat.
I kept her because she had no opportunity to see behind the scenes.
Because the narrative was always around while she grew up.
Her grandmother, my mother, is a covert narcissist.
It is good to hear about your experience.
To be more able to find good decisions.
Also, it's good to hear that the scapegoating is not everywhere...
There are humans who treat you like a person.
I wish you a good life
filled with good people and happy moments.
@rebeccaoliver5306 Powerful comment. I hope many take the time to read it. Glad you're here.
I learnt never to go back for more torture after leaving for uni.
I've been estranged from all 5 of them, both parents, one twin & two older sisters, for about 30 years. Being the empath, and the truth teller, they couldn't stand me telling them how dysfunctional and wrong they also are, all of the time, for abusing me so badly. One sister has lived in psychiatric hospital for 40 years thanks to my mum's bullying the other sister relocated thousands of miles away to get away from my mum, my twin brother is gay and is still fawning for my parent's love, and hasn't accepted he will never , ever get any love from them (not because he's gay, it's just because the parents are abusers and narcissistic). Well they can all EFF OFF, I'm best off without them, and if I never see them again it will be too soon.
I have God, my cats, & my friends and they all love me unconditionally. And that's because I am lovable and worthy of love. Stay strong!!
Thank you for this, it is validating and supportive! I started setting boundaries about 15 years ago with various family members. I was met with disbelief from other family members. As I told them more stories of abuse, they believed me less. These were people I trusted and counted on. Eventually one of them started emotionally abusing my husband and accused him of being an abuser when I questioned her lack of control. I came to realize that she had been subtly abusing me all along and was now ramping it up. Then another one became verbally aggressive in a way I’ve never experienced from her. I came to realize that setting boundaries brought on more abuse and a huge lack of respect. To make a long story short, I went no contact with all of them a year ago at the age of 72. One year later I can say Christmas was lonely but the ever present knot in my stomach is gone. My health has improved and my inner light is shining. It was well worth it. The years I have left will be lived in peace.
Wishing you a long, long healthy life free from stress and pain.❤
Thank you for sharing this with us, Karen. Here's a resource page in case you need some more dedicated support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Hi, Karen. Holidays will feel lonely initially, but you can chose to make them special...whatever that is for you. I've spent most holidays alone, and even a small gesture can make the day special. Most of all, those days are now quiet, peaceful and restorative. With your improved health, so many more good things will come your way! Continue to shine brilliantly on this journey!
@@rebeccaoliver5306💝
You’ve made the right choice Karen, we can all see whether you’re 7 or 70 your role is defined and stuck forever within toxic family units. I don’t have ANY family due to inter generational trauma. Squeaky wheels, dysfunctional behaviour and abusive characters get special treatment!
They don’t respond to anything you say. Whatever you say is insignificant. They just repeat the same nonsense over and over again. They are incapable of communicating.
Exactly my life !! They do it so subtly too... Always invalidating my opinions because im the youngest of them all, i thought it was normal...
I wish I had known more about all of this when I went no contact with my mother, because I was blindsided by the family mobbing. Aunts and uncles who I thought really cared about me and had pretty difficult histories with their sister, still ended up being her flying monkeys. It turned out that if I wanted to be healthier or set boundaries, I had to do it without most of my family. It's really sad, and even after a few years it still really hurts, but I can't go back to playing the role I was assigned now that I've worked on healing myself.
Oh gosh, me too. I had no idea I’d lose them all, especially my little sister 😢
@djer05010401 Nor should you. Here's a resource page in case you need some support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
The same thing happens to me.
I also thought that an aunt was on my side.
But the other family members made a description
of me that I am the unworthy one.
This aunt sided with the narcissist and family unit.
Even though she was my mother's hated sister.
Because of her, my mother (covert narcissist) had feelings of inferiority.
@@Ed-lianit’s possibly that they don’t want the discomfort- we must hold lots of systems anxieties by staying put… nuts…
They aren't brave enough - they're selfish cowards, even when they see you hurting. I tlalso was niave thinking I could still have relationships with my Aunt, great aunt and father when I cut ties with mom. It will only work if they want it to, and the family system is too set. I felt like I wasn't worth it to them,, now I know they aren't worth my time.
My family didn't "poke holes" against me...they pecked me and pecked me like a chicken with a spot of blood on it. In nature, the rest of the flock will peck that chicken until it's dead. That's what my family tried to do to me. And, they almost succeeded!
I've learned to keep my distance, they don't really want me around anyway so why would I fight against that toxic wall of destructive behavior and rejection? I have a peace in me that I'll NEVER let anyone steel from me.
Rebecca, I don't know how to tank you for all your hard work and breaking through this insidious behavior. You're a miracle to me and I so appreciate you and your video's. Thank you. thank you.
You're very welcome! I have a story about hens, pecking, and human behavior. I'll include it in a video soon.
Estherann- your description is very powerful and very believable.
You take care. ❤️🩹
My Mom has like a tic when it comes to saying things she knows will hurt me the most. She waits until we’ve been ok for awhile, and when I least expect it, she’ll say the exact thing that will cut through my heart like a sucker punch. She’s flippant about it. I finally told her I want us to talk but it has to be with a therapist. That was 7 months ago. That’s just one family member dynamic. There are more. The longer I spend time away from my family the clearer the picture gets and I get angry every time I see/remember something new. My rage is much less blinding now and I think I’ve begun the process of stepping out of being perpetually furious. I still feel like I hate them but I’m trying to put my focus towards more productive endeavors.
You describe this particular dynamic very well. "like a tic..." - bingo. Stay with the (righteous) rage and see where it leads you. As it is often tied into complex trauma symptoms and held in the body, finding a place where you can suit up in safety gear and break plates and glass can be invigorating, per some of my clients' reports (San Francisco has such a place, I forget what it's called).
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse there’s a rage room in my city. I think that’s gonna be my solo date I’ve been trying to come up with! Thank you Rebecca 🙏🏽
I think you're speaking the thoughts in my heart and that the calculated words are designed to get the reaction for their gaslighting ammunition. Warped and self condemned they are
I had a session booked and paid for in advance and at the last minute she cancelled. She used this superior tone to say "you go you go". I was already seeing a therapist on my own.
But of course she acts like the victim, I should have known she couldn't make it, I should go and "get help" (on my own).
4 years on I realised I've got through this and instead of being in agony that I can't fix this and can't be heard, now I wonder why I need *her* to hear me. I hear me. It's tough though 🎉❤
@SusanaXpeace2u I know it's not the same as validation from your mum, but if it's any consolation, WE can hear you☺️🤗
When you start getting healthy and setting boundaries, this really upsets the apple cart in the dysfunctional family. Expect to be iced-out and accused of being mentally ill/fragile or thinking you are just better than the other members. They just cannot stand seeing you change, when they cannot or will not. Not everyone is willing to do the heavy lifting to get their life in order. Some times you just have to cut all of this crap out of your life for good, and never look back. You cannot change the past, but you can certainly make a better future for yourself. You owe it to your own kids to get healthy so that they have a better role model for relationships. Choose wisely.
Thank you for an insightful summary of this video.
These families operate like a cult. I tried so hard to keep my only child safe from them, but when she was 16 and my ex husband had walked out, they got her into the family and kicked me out. To add to that…. They also took my abusive ex husband into the family instead of me. My daughter is now 18 and has BPD. She has recently blocked me out of her life after not doing that for more than a year
@@Andrea-lp4bbvery sad
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 ❤️
Yup! 💯 what’s wrong with you? Nothing, I go to therapy . I’m called all kinds of names because I don’t play the game and go along with the lies and delusions. I haven’t in a long time. Everyone is afraid of my dad and rather go along or ignore so he won’t “ get mad” he is 70 now. I’m 46 and the crazy bitch amongst other things because I don’t play and this last year going to therapy twice a month helped me to be very strong. But I still wish It wasn’t like this for my kids but they are older now and are disgusted themselves.
You are the most helpful person I’ve ever found
I appreciate your saying that. Glad you're here.
Once I went no contact, I realized I didn’t miss them at all. That was super telling, since missing someone is something you can’t fake! It is an authentic feeling that I would have felt if the relationships had had healthy potential.
Powerful insight, thank you.
Wise thinking!
Yep, exactly the same for me. Since I went no contact with my "family" 4 years ago because of scapegoating abuse, I miss absolutely none of them, not even my mum, who for most of my life I did well and truly love, until I looked back and reflected on how she actually treated me like emotionally neglecting me etc and realising I was abused, so now I don’t care for her anymore. Although I wish no ill on the family at all, I have no intention of seeing again if I hear something happened to them, they’ve treated me too badly for too long to care about them now.
@@glenpudney I’m right there with you! Keep on doing what’s best for you. Everything you’re saying makes sense.
I missed 'having a family' for a few months, but I have since realized they were NEVER a family to me.
The true test was how they treated me at my most vulnerable, and/or when I came to them in need, or asked them for help. They treated me like garbage, laughed at me, mocked me and hit me during those times. So no. They never treated me like I was a member of their family, unless I was willing to sit and put up with their crap, then smile wanly and be happy about it.
"My cow died. So, I don't need your bull anymore!"
My malignant narcissistic mother died recently. She ruined my siblings for me so that I have lost my family forever. With these "well- behaved" people, nothing true can be spoken, no new ideas can be expressed. Everyone speaks from a script written in 1960. I constantly remind myself I'd have to wear a straitjacket to hang out with these people. Still, I'm sad.
Yes, many adult survivors of FSA feel intense grief, even though the family dynamics were intolerable enough to warrant ending contact. I speak more on this in my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) and in a dedicated video here: ua-cam.com/video/8iHfcWKsRis/v-deo.html
I was "rude-awakened" after my malignant narcissistic (and frankly socipathic) mother died in 2018...I had this 'crazy' notion that finally my siblings and their spouses would see me differently without her constant badgering and reframing of me to look bad.
I was sorely disappointed to realize that nothing had changed. I was still the 'bad' person and nothing I did, said, thought or felt would change that. NC is the only way to go with people who fail to recognize any good in you.
I feel you, my family basically hurt me to my core and actually left me. I can't be a normal person with these wrecked family relationships because they have ruined all my relationships with other people. No contact may be good but there is still missing so much.
My covert narcissistic mother also died recently in dez 2023.
What you said about your siblings is also tru in my family situation.
They are in the scrip which the malignent mother wrote.
They glorify the mother.
I cannot agree with this nonsense.
For my siblings I am the bad person.
I heard in a video of Jay Reid how it came about. He says that the scapegoat and the golden child dynamic. The scapegoat child does everything badly and the golden child does everything right. That's why the golden child will make sense of what the mother says. That's why it's so justified that the golden child admiring the mother. And if the mother is embarrassed by the scapegoat then the scapegoat child has done something to make mother feel that way. This scapegoat and golden child dynamic has sense. The siblings never can connect to each other.
I can understand that you are sad, I am also sad- but notice that this emotion is what the narcissist wanted.
That's the supply energy.
Try to come out of the sadness energy.
I know it's not easy...
I am also fighting this situation.
Yes, real toxic ones do not care of boundaries, they over react to our opposition cause they lack of respect..boundaries are at least ignored, so they force you to leave cause staying with them is deadly as much satisfying the codependent fear to be without them. Maintain the contact is a brave sacrifice, but we must consider if it worths our mental health which will be for sure affected by them.
Wise words, Stefani, thank you.
❤@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse
This is EXACTLY what has just happened to me. I’m done with all of them. Thank you for your help and wisdom
Me too ❤
You're welcome. Here's a resource page in case you need some support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I walked away from my family. I tried so many times to just deal with them because they're family. I just couldn't do it this time. I just couldn't be the person my family needed me to be. My role was the fixer and healer. I'm the oldest daughter of 3 girls. I have been the hero and the scapegoat.
Like I said, I just don't want to be those roles anymore.
I do wish society would get a clue that some of the families may look healthy on the outside, but when at home, it's not like it appears. Smoke and mirrors. I am grateful that I got out. I'm teaching my sons that it's ok to walk away from toxic relationships no matter the relationship. No one has the right to treat you badly.
I'm also the oldest sibling, and I, too, was given the roles of hero, fixer , and scapegoat. I finally rejected all these roles and walked away. It has brought me much improved peace of mind. No contact is the way to deal with toxic families without a doubt.
They hate me for my boundaries as if to say I’m difficult smh
Oh yes - that phrase is typical "You're so difficult!" when you are simply behaving in a healthy, boundaried manner.
Or even just expressing what you would like, that's being difficult. Because we're programmed to think we're not worthy to have even humble needs met. Your boundaries look good on you. ☺️
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Exactly, thank you so much for the work you do, watching and listening to you keeps me sane.
@@rcristy Right, when you address the fact that you’re not being treated with respect they say “you think too highly of yourself”, my sister would say this meanwhile she’s mostly not at home to realize the extent of the abuse. Thank you, your boundaries look good on you too❤️❤️❤️❤️
Hello Rebecca,
Thanks for your videos, they are very helpful. I walked away from my toxic family of origin because my boundaries were not respected so I applied the consequences and walked away. I can't make anyone respect my boundaries. I also can't expect love from ppl who don't have it to give. And what they have I don't want.
I experienced exactly what you described ... being verbally assaulted humilated, criticized judged, invalidated, "poked", many times waiting to see what would get a reaction from me. The observer was my mom and the narcissistic abuser who was gaslighting me was my brother. I made one comment and he immediately looked at my mom for pity because he was trying to make me out to be the problem. So, I left because I loved myself enough to save myself. The family systems have only gotten worse over the years.
A good author on the subject of scapegoating etc is Les Carter, Texas USA
You're welcome. Thank you for sharing your story with others here and I'll look up the work of Les Carter.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabusehe has a mantra Dignity Respect Civility. It has taken me ages to realise Civility is absence of abuse, not being cordial or polite. This is for me in interactions outside of family stuff, workplace individuals who are “difficult “ to say the least
Your passion as you speak about this gives me a feeling of belonging. I've commented on many of your videos about what destructive therapy did to me in keeping me in absuive relationships and your acknowledgement and recognition of this has helped me greatly. I m SO grateful that you're bringing this information to younger people who won't waste precious time on family who aren't equipped to appreciate them.
Appreciate that - These forms of invisible abuse must be acknowledged.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Hear! Hear!
A Mobbing is the added word I’ve been looking for . Being blamed ,shamed for all the false narratives they have spewed about be and my character to so many is a mobbing , a continual smear campaign. I have barely survived these tactics . The suffering it causes shakes and unravels your whole foundation that you thought would always be there. My heart aches every day as I’ve watch them all be a loving family to each other among the alienation and withholding they placed on me. As much as I long for my family , it doesn’t feel like mine anymore and I’m trying to learn to live without them . They will never be accountable for what they have done and all the hurt they caused. So I try to hold onto my truth that I am a good person but that is a process after going through this toxicity. Thank you Rebecca for putting into words ,perfect explanations of what a family scapegoat experiences . I have never felt more seen, validated , understood by anyone as much as you. Because of you many can walk through this feeling less alone and so empowered. I am so grateful for your work.
Thank you for this, JoJo. I can feel your genuine heartache within your words here. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse thank you so very much. It means more you’ll ever know.❤️
@@jojo1ck Me to JoJo, I'm so grateful too. Love your name, our grown up daughter was JoJo when she was tiny. ❤
@@junehall2177 Thank you❤️sometimes in the midst of one’s suffering we find much to be grateful for.
@@jojo1ck Yes, that is true. Your comment was so eloquently put, I read it out to my husband, I was so moved. Your appreciative words to Rebecca read beautifully, so heartfelt & mirroring my own feelings. We're not alone. Thank you JoJo & Rebecca.
Rebecca: Please stay courageous knowing you have an army of family scapegoats who love you and the work you do! I believe you are breaking through so many layers of scapegoating in this horrific 'blame the victim' violent world. Before you came along, we the 'identified patients' were all alone on the battlefield with all guns pointed at us. Those with the guns thrive if we go back and let them devour us. For me, I've tried various forms of contact. Nothing works because none of my family members have any desire to introspect, take responsibility, let alone get individual therapy. I fully recover only when I let go of all of them. Thank you for this very powerful video.
You're welcome, Pam. Your comment / acknowledgement of the realities I discuss in this video is priceless, as is your acknowledgement of my efforts to get the word out on this form of abuse I named 'FSA' (family scapegoating abuse). Much appreciated.
Well said ❤️
I asked my brother if he was capable of introspection and he laughed and screamed at me lol.
I keep the peace via text. Im not better than anyone, but if I can remain strong and still show them love (though, many times I would like to go no-contact but having no other family and being adopted makes it worse) or how love can still be in existence even to evil.
Love thine enemies and do good for them.
Although, thinking maybe I should take a year off and then go back. But then I'm just in my head. Either way I'm in my head, still seeking a decent therapist (with crap insurance lol)
But glorious internet shares such great content from amazing workers such as this woman!🌸🤲🏼
Internet therapy lol
Helps.
But there really isnt anything like speaking to a human and having a heard response.
@@intheraw6393 If I were you, I would go gray rock. I say this because, typically, scapegoats need to settle down our nervous system. When I went no contact (though I too am alone), my body did more healing which i couldn't do as long as there were ongoing triggers and threat of more manipulation/scapegoating.
I came to the realisation that I was in effect an orphan even though the parents and sibs are still living. While very painful, it helps me feel a tad more compassion for myself.
It is so good to have you back and hearing you speak sense to this insanity we have all been (and some still are) subjected to. Big thanks! Keep them coming, Rebecca. 🌷
I certainly will - and you're welcome!
You could be talking about my family .
Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I tried going back and it was a war to maintain my self esteem and dignity. I was family mobbed beyond comprehension. In hindsight, I don't know how I maintained. The only way to deal with my family of origin on both sides is not to. I have not even had contact with most of them and they won't have anything to do with me due to the rumors and nonsense that my abusers continue to spew about me. It's mind boggling. I always just thought I was a bad person. Now, I realize I was being scapegoated. Oh, and boundaries? What boundaries? In their mind I have no right to boundaries. Even reasonable, modest boundaries become a huge issue. They refuse to acknowledge any life accomplishment that I have achieved. The "I think I'm better than they are." family mantra trumps anything that I have done. I'm not a braggart. I just wanted to be accepted. I can't change them. I can only change myself. My fantasy of having a loving, supportive family system is over. It doesn't exist.
How hope this realization has helped you in your recovery journey. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I found that staying away in dynamics of this nature is literally the only option. I don't miss any of them. I do grieve the the idea/fantasy that I once held dearly. 😔
@@astrarai-thesobercoder I so agree with this. Anytime I hear or read about a family scapegoat going back after NC or even if they haven't been NC and doing the holiday thing, I'm like, "Nooo! Don't do it."
@@astrarai-thesobercoderyes.
@@mixedlagfunerals often bring people back.
Any boundary I set with my “family” would just become a focal point for them to ‘one up’ me. If I said I wasn’t ok with ‘such and such’ happening, that was emphatically what they would do and vice versa. So many violations of my rights as a basic human being. The bare, bare minimum of interaction was consciously not met. Heaven forbid if I get to an emotional development stage higher than them (not something hard to do) - that is a threat and ‘you need to stay in the primordial mud down here with us thank you very much’.
Have ended up setting the ultimate boundary of no contact and been able to see from old text messages that my boundaries were clear, empathic and reasonable and I managed to find a sense of self enough to see that the problem wasn’t mine.
Now a vile smear campaign has ensued and am being mobbed by not just my family but even more people they have roped in with their bullshit. People who know me and should therefore know that what is being said is not possible. It is beyond bizarre.
I think just how long it took me to educate myself about narcissism and really understand it, to try get these people to see the abuse for what it is, is futile. If I tell people my safety is at risk from my “family” they look at me as if I don’t know what I’m talking about. How can they not see that people generally only leave UNhealthy systems and only UNhealthy families eject members. If it was healthy, there’d be no need.
Crazy making. Thank goodness for your channel Rebecca and others like it ❤
For real - people don’t get up and walk out on loving relationships for no reason! The proof is in the pudding.
A red flag I learned about the hard way: when you specify that you want more of 'X' and less of 'Y' and end up getting more Y and less X, then they feign ignorance / they didn't understand you / couldn't remember / you didn't make yourself clear, etc. - there's a 95-100% chance that person is a narcissist.
@SuzyBee-zs9hb It's my pleasure - glad you're here.
Supposedly we’re the problem, and in my case, I was because I had a serious substance abuse problem at one point. They wanted me to get sober and it took me a long time and many times in treatment. My most successful time has been the past 10 years. I ended up going no contact and I think that helped. They claimed to be proud of me for staying sober but they would emotionally abuse me to the point where I really wanted to get drunk.
The entire family system needs treatment; yet it is generally the family 'scapegoat' or 'identified patient' (IP) who will be viewed as the problem. I saw this again and again while running family programs at Drug/Alcohol treatment centers.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Yep, oddly enough, I wasn’t even able to stay sober until I broke away from them.
Addictive behaviors are often a form of self-medication, as you likely already know.
You are absolutely right about the dangers of going into any environment where even their words have reached their ears. I had been contacted by an old friend. I had not spoken to in 40 years and she reminded me that I had a “learning disability”. Their tales reach far and wide. This person was 93 years old. She wanted me to visit her and I cut it short and went no contact. For good. Isn’t it odd how out of all the good qualities you had and showed them, they always seem to believe the lie my mother made up. I went no contact because I’m in my 60s and I decided that I’m done trying to disprove my mother. Even 10 years after she passed away. Hatred is such a nasty sin. Thank you for your work Rebecca.
Thanks for sharing that story. Mind boggling how easily people are so gullible to gossip
@@smoozerishyes
You're very welcome, Kay. Yes, the distortion of the character of the FSA target is so profound that who the person actually is - and anything that challenges what I call the 'scapegoat narrative' - is disregarded / ignored.
I love how real this is. That’s one of the scariest parts of this is nobody taking it seriously because they say they haven’t seen it. That’s because it happens unseen. That they don’t believe it becomes a living nightmare. And even when it was seen nobody had the courage to stand up to it. It is truly like being on a battlefield alone and like being under attack in the street and no one coming to help.
When I finally left it did get worse. Now I am isolated from the entire extended family. I know the family lies and I have no idea what people have been told. Thank God I’m close with my brother but now he’s on the outs with them too.
Sounds like you do have a family 'ally' - rare, so good to hear. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
When someone says "I can only take them as I find them" like being thrown under the bus
Yes being accused of ‘falling out with my whole family’ is something I’ve had from two ex friends, and also my daughter who’s become a part of the narrative. It’s incredibly infuriating. People look in from the outside and see one person who’s been rejected by the whole family so figure it must definitely be the fault of the one who’s been cast out
@@pmc8119yeah… like they are this decent, non judgmental person.
@@Andrea-lp4bb absolutely. It’s awful. And I just don’t have the energy to try to defend myself or explain to people who never took an interest anyway except to listen to them
Looking back, I realize it isn't that I didn't understand "boundaries", rather that any boundary I'd ever set with family was ignored. That's why I was always in fight mode.
I hosted many family events: holidays, birthdays, random get-togethers.
These were often the avenue for the hoovering of the family narcissists.
Many times there were stand-offs between myself and family members, usually my mother, that could last months or even years because I was holding boundaries while they clung to their denial.
Then would come Christmas, or a birthday, and those same members would arrive on their best behavior, full of compliments perhaps gifts, happy chatter of happy memories, or sucking me back into common interests or hobbies.
We get programmed to "keep the peace", or just not rock the family boat at family events, and they work that angle quite well. Put on the nice mask for the flying monkeys..
It always infuriated me that these people could just pretend that everything was cool from the last vicious attack, with no discussion, no apology, like it had simply never happened.
I think we truth-tellers have always had boundaries: the first one being we refuse to lie, or allow others to lie.
The day a psychotic sibling organized a group attack on me was the day I said
ENOUGH, and that was the final straw that forced me to go No Contact with all of them.
In my case, the only way to enforce boundaries is simply to stay away from them.
Another way society re-victimizes scapegoats is this constant bombardment
of the concept of "unconditional love".
"You're supposed to love your family unconditionally."
That is another boundary I will always enforce:
I give no consent to any form of abuse to be used as a free pass to my forgiveness, acceptance of, or "love", for ANYONE.
Not my mother, not my father, not my siblings, not a friend, not a stranger, not a partner. No one.
After all, narcissistic "love" is absolutely "conditional": accept my narrative, play your part, take the abuse with your mouth shut, and I will "love" you.
The adage "love is saying you're sorry" I completely agree with, as long as it is GENUINE, and is what separates the narcissists from those who aren't.
I'd like to hear more about where therapists stand on the concept of "unconditional love".
I give unconditional love to my children and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You can love someone without wanting them in your life.
Letting go of people can be an act of love.
While love may not be conditional, relationships are.
Powerful observation. That's a whole other video... Stay tuned (!)
Wow - I've watched so many of your videos, and they're all so helpful, but this one came through more powerfully with the less scripted thing -- I loved it! I went through family mobbing before NC, but after years of learning about this stuff, I've never once heard the term before, so I'd love to hear some more on that if it can be worked in somewhere. Thanks for your *incredible* work.
Thank you, Martha. Actually, *none* of my videos have been scripted but I did feel very clear and 'flowing' when I shot this - feeling the positive effects of having a dead gallbladder removed recently.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse That's so funny, because as I was trying to think of the right word to describe it, I kept coming up with the word "alive"! Looks like going NC with your toxic gallbladder was the right move! 🤣Glad you're on the mend. 👍
What I've personally observed is that I am never allowed to be right. My feelings, opinions, and knowledge are dismissed. I have to be "wrong" so that the family powerholder can be right, even when the powerholder is clearly delusional. Even after returning after fifteen years of no contact, I was viewed as having nothing of value to say. I told them I was writing a book, but they never once asked me about it.
I can believe that! Here's a resource list I created for FSA adult survivors in case you'd like more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
You totally get it.
"Been there, done that" (!)
Yes. This cleared up so much. And I did need to hear that. Because that’s exactly what they do. Poke and poke and poke. Had it happen the other day. Told them to stop gaslighting me. Then they mocked me I said nothing then there was the joke (to down play what had just occurred) but I just said nothing. It felt really great to be able to not react anymore. The way they wanted me to react so they could call me crazy. I have gotten to the point where I can predict what they are going to do next and that helps me to see that truly the patterns of behavior are predictable but to know it really makes me understand their motives. And I can SEE them and believe what I am seeing. They have become quite small and insignificant now to me. Where as before I read your book and have been learning all I can about covert narcissists and family systems they were my world. And I would cater to the dysfunction and cry behind the scenes. So thank you for giving me eyes to see and the strength to BELIEVE what I am experiencing. Because THAT -taking back my trust in myself and not falling for the gaslighting has given me back MY life. Thank you.
Good to hear - And such a powerful recovery testimonial. Amazing you were able to stay non-reactive when poked! I celebrate this with you - It is not an easy thing to do.
For the first time I moved to a small town; I grew up in the nearby country and spent most of my adult life in cities. There seems to be more of a concentration of types in a small town and there are many opportunities to interact. I have found that if I put up a healthy boundary, I very quickly find out if this is a narcissist. It is frequently a good tell no matter what the relationship. Being no contact with my family for most of my years, I have to say I find their behaviours everywhere since I've been more aware.
Healthy boundaries are indeed similar to a sword of clarity: It divides the true from the untrue, the false from the real, the loving from the unloving...
I think I will move to the city!
Thank you for these videos they are beyond helpful yet very difficult to come to terms with. The best thing I learned is I’m not crazy and I’m not alone. I am in a place where I can’t escape they smear campaigned me since I was around 4 or 5 years old. I literally felt the energy shift when I walked in the room with family, holidays are very triggering. The worst part is my mom, dad and brother have been convincing the narrative to my children and one now is living with my parents. My parents overstepping boundaries when I set them which shouldn’t surprise me. I feel anger and rage that I hate to feel because I am a very sensitive empath. All of this is cruel and not fair at all.. Thank you for standing up for us and bringing light to this it’s destroying innocent lives. Praying for all affected by this ❤🙏🏼
Also to add I have elhers danios a rare genetic disorder this was ignored until the age of 40 when I finally go myself help. They neglected my health issues and told me I’m lazy and need to get it together just wild for a parent/parents to ignore so much.
You're very welcome. Thank you for sharing some of your experiences with us here. This article I wrote may help you if you choose to attend holiday gatherings, etc, with family - It emphasizes self-care and how to manage difficult dynamics: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/2021/11/16/holiday-self-care-for-adults-in-the-family-scapegoat-role/
Thank you!!!❤
@@mandatahirihI hear you- the anger and rage- many if us are very late comers to this- don’t push it away- send compassion to your anger and your rage- they are your friends- once you befriend them and don’t act them out.
@@mandatahirihi know about Elhers Dandos- not personally though, I think that there are possibly support and information groups on line for people with Elhers Dandos- I met a young woman, socially a few years ago with quite a severe version of this- she was great and interestingly was left to care for an “ill” alcoholic mother. People with Elhers Dandos, often age little on their faces, and an eary sign can be the super smooth velvety skin. I hope you can take some solace from this 💝
Many thanks once again for your expertise & advice on this difficult subject for many folk, including yourself & myself.
Once again I feel validated which is a huge relief as one can feel terribly alone .... families love you right ? !!!
The remainder of my family of origin ignored me, husband & kids (nastily) at my parents funerals (both died too young from cancer), other family members funerals & my youngest brother's wedding (a fellow scapegoat). The last occasion was the final straw for me, never again will I/my family be made to feel like that again. I am too strong/not strong enough in equal measures to cope with that again. Moving 500 hundred miles from my family of origin helps (!), parents left everything to the two golden children. I am too old to be made to feel like a child again. Thank you reaching out & talking to brave survivors, it is a relief to have found you. Take care. X
Hi June, very glad you're here.
Thats why im not in touch with my sisters, only my brother who sits on a huge fence. I will just be treated the same if i go back.
I addressed sibling issues in my last video. Link here: ua-cam.com/video/gNHUjs8lI6U/v-deo.html
Bravo Rebecca ❤ thanks so much I really needed this today, I hope your feeling better 🙏
I am, thank you, Nicola!
I needed to hear this. I am about to 64, my parents are both in their 80's. I moved a long way away from my immediate family 45 years ago. I went no contact with my mother and thus by default my immediate family members. I have gone the route of medicine healing ceremonies. About a year ago my counselor suggested that I reach out to my parents, and eventually did. I sent flowers for mother's day, I sent them photos from a trip my wife and I went into Thailand, but there was always the underlying malaise of the unspoken reason as to why I went no contact in the first place. I have come a long way since I headed out on my own at 19, my understanding of what I went through is complete, I am on this healing journey and my light is again shining too brightly for some, nothing is ever going to dim my light like that again. This is way bigger than the simple concept of boundaries. This is me finally figuring out what my special purpose for being here is. It definitely was not to be somebody's punching bag, I now know that much for sure.
I am quoting this passage from your comment here, as I think anyone scanning through comments needs to read it. Thank. you. BTW, I use this analogy often with my clients. We should not have to dim our light. For anybody. For any reason. Ever. You wrote: "I am on this healing journey and my light is again shining too brightly for some, nothing is ever going to dim my light like that again. This is way bigger than the simple concept of boundaries. This is me finally figuring out what my special purpose for being here is. It definitely was not to be somebody's punching bag, I now know that much for sure."
Thank you for this. My parents and two brothers are different types of narcissist. My mom at the helm. They all hate each other but come together in their hate for me. My stepdad, a once loving man, was also abused by them. He died two years ago. All my life, I thought it was true that I was crazy and emotional, but it was confusing because my coworkers saw me completely the opposite. I was a banker who was under stressful conditions but always remained calm. Unfortunately I realized my daughter carried the same destructiveness. I saw them take down others but everyone else believes their lies and smiles. It’s mind boggling.
I walked away 7 years ago but had to go back two years ago for my stepdads funeral. I went in calm, praying in my head the entire time. I went calmly, with my eyes opened. For a man they all hated, they came together. At every turn, they were trying to set me off. I was proud of myself that none of it work. I couldn’t believe that they were so blatant with it. Afterwards, I got in the car with my husband. He asked if I wanted to go to my mom’s house. I told him that I wanted to go home and never return. I was thankful that God rescued me from this and kept me sane in all of the mental and physical abuse. Oddly, I miss my family, but I realize that I miss the family I wanted them to be. I love them at an extreme distance.
Me too Cindy, this sounds so familiar. I miss where I grew up, the countryside, river, favourite walks; parents left it all to the two golden boys. The place is tainted for life. Take care.❤
@cindybaker7153 You said it all right here, Cindy, thank you: "Oddly, I miss my family, but I realize that I miss the family I wanted them to be." Profound awareness.
I dread going to my mother’s funeral. After my dad’s death 15 years ago, I figured out exactly how things are going to go down.
Twillie, you will need a plan. You might want to join Rhonda's private FB group, I know some people are in there that likely can give you some tips - If you decide to go, that is. Facebook group in this resource list - you may have it already but just in case: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
I’ve grieved relationships with multiple family members that actually never existed. I only realized this when I started to heal. After I stepped away I was able to see things more clearly. Grieving was helpful.
Wow! One of your best episodes yet! ❤❤❤
Thank you!
This abusive and shunning family behaviour is certainly real and maintains the 'superior' status of those who need to have a scapegoat at their disposal . I've found that you literally can never go home again as it will be as bad and maybe worse than you even remember it being . As a little kid I realized that everything I did was wrong and everything I didn't do was wrong and nothing changes on that front despite the passage of years . We can only protect ourselves by leaving a lot of daylight between ourselves and toxic family .
This is the classic 'double bind' FSA child victims and adult survivors are invariably put in, i.e., situations where you're 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'.
I have been in therapy on and off since 2010 - I’ve never had a therapist discuss the projection process. However my medical doctor did. That explained the crazy making I had experienced from my family most of my life.
Good to hear your MD was so knowledgeable - and that you received the information you needed.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I was under the care of 3 doctors when my husband died. They have been wonderful.
The mobbing thing is amazing. They can all be going at each other like rabid dogs,yet as soon as I hit the county line they stop fighting and focus on me,on cue--just like zombies. Boundaries only feed their hate and the bad behaviour intensifies. Thank you for all the work you have done regarding FSA🥰
Yes, it really can be like this!
Love "soon as I hit the county line "
@@janegreen5301it’s such a visual description. I also like the rabid dogs!
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 yeap!
It paints a picture. And good for a giggle.
IT’s tragically sad. That’s why we maybe want to try a different way with them. THEY DONT WANT A DIFFERENT WAY!
Bingo. That sums it up right there. Their (unhealthy and/or flat out abusive) family systems process is working for them, as I say in this video.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse yes 👍
You’re so cool and a bad ass, Rebecca! Thanks for speaking for so many of us who are silenced
The terrified, mute, silenced child in me who worked her ass off to be able to tell her truth thanks you.
If one can find a voice then we all can. There will be a time…
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Sending love, best wishes & thanks Rebecca. X
So glad this is being bought to light and acknowledged. Thank you for your amazing work. I wish it had been around when I was growing up but I’m happy future scapegoats can realise what’s going on a bit sooner.
You're welcome, Meredith. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
IMO, you will bring blessings to yourself and your healing when you share your story and help others. I try to go on Quora a couple of times a week and provide what I can to others who struggle. It seems to help with my own healing as well.
Thank you for this. Decided to finally set a simple boundary of saying I would no longer talk politics. The reaction was catastrophic. I was accused of saying things not said, manipulation, name-calling and told if I ever talked like that again, they would not speak to me ever again. The good news is this gave me the final straw to disconnect, block and begin a healing journey of self care. When it's an adult child, and you've gone through this for 20 years, it was way overdue. Serious health problems and years of depression and despair. I would tell anyone that letting this go on for long periods, hoping it would change, can literally kill you.
When one is not allowed to have boundaries, needs, or preferences, a relationship is not possible. Society needs to wake up to the fact that this is true with family as well. Thanks for your comment. Linking you to my FSA survivor resource page in case you need further support ideas: familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/p/resources
When I started standing up for myself, next thing you know my photos in their house were taken down. Even their dog barked at me. I find that really weird because animals usually like me.
Whoa!! This in a sense suggests that animals living in the home can also pick up this 'energetic ground' (and attendant shifts) I spoke about in my last video on Sibling Estrangement.
Wow!! Stay strong 💪❤️
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse I think you are on to something...siblings,pets definitely sense a vibe. It's deeper than a "vibe",whatever it is. Thanks for your focus on FSA,truly a life-saving gift👍
@@stingylizard oh yes, it's more than a vibe. And it's real.
You're welcome! @stingylizard
Thank you for enlightening us on energy fields... It's like the abusers have an antennae... Through distance- whenever the mere THOUGHT to super from their ... Gang/cult: I'd find id suddenly be bombarded with communication and demands to spend time with them...
All other times I voiced needs to spend time with them (when I didn't know anything I know now and longed for that 'family' life)... Nothing. Well, nothing POSITIVE.
You're very welcome. It is amazing to me that the great clinician (and an early founder of the field of Family Systems) Murray Bowen was talking about 'multigenerational transmissions' and how these affect families decades and decades ago. I do review some of his work in my introductory book on FSA, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed', btw.
The gaslighting I receive when I offer love and positivity toward family, shows they are not able to see me in a positive light. Because of that narrative, I am kept in that role of being the crazy one in anything I do or say
Yes - which would drive any sane person mad, by the way. Amazing that so many of us who have experienced being caught in this distorted energetic web (the projections and the scapegoat narrative) are all doing as well as we are, isn't it?(!)
You know why? Because you are not "playing the role." You're not "sticking to the script." You're refusing to be typecast.
That's a threat to the dysfunctional family system because if you're not a horrible, wicked nasty person straight from hell itself, then...maybe they were wrong about you...and maybe you did not deserve their abuse...which means, maybe they are imperfect and to blame for mistreating you. Even worse, maybe their perfect, flawless and heaven-like parents had flaws, an intolerable thought to many adult children, especially if one or both parents are deceased.
People really lash out hard when their paradigms are challenged.
I can't thank you enough for your work and compassion! The fine community you attract here in the comments , just wow! My recovery and healing leaps forward.❤😅❤
Wonderful to hear! Yes, we have an amazing community, for sure. Here's a list of FSA survivor resources I put together in case you need some support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
In listening to your videos and reading on my own, I've been seeing and understanding more and more the toxic scapegoating patterns in my family system. After my mother died ten years ago, I've experienced it more coming from my siblings and my mother's siblings (especially my THREE aunts). I now see more clearly how these same narcissistic patterns played out in a job I left 15 years ago. This theme seems to be my whole life! A book I'd like to recommend for your bookshop is called Cinderella and Her Sisters: The Envied and the Envying. It is an older book (1983), which was updated in 2012. The language is a little different but the main idea is about encountering others who want to take the good from us and that basically the whole world is set up this way. Very profound book. I was able to purchase the ebook edition for about $10. The other books on your site also look interesting. Thank you for listing them.
Thank you for this book recommendation and for sharing a few of your FSA experiences. I'll check it out soon.
No contact for 2 years now. Last time I saw my family, I was told, that they “liked” me better before…meaning when I had no boundaries… I said, because it benefited you more…. I’m done with them all….
Bingo. That sums up this video right there.
Excellent! The truth is that the healthier you get, the more you realize how sick all the cult family members are. Ironic that my worst fear was abandonment. I concentrated on healing and trying to understand my lost nature. In the end, I now have really no family left. But, I have more peace than I have ever had in my entire life. I had to learn as I went along, the hard way. I only got on the internet about 7 years ago ( I avoided it on pupose ) and discovered that ALL my perceptions, beliefs and conclusions were true and validated by many wonderful people such as yourself. The sensitivity to abuse is much greater than before. I tolerate nothing. I definitely found my voice, even if no one is listening. God bless
I love those last few sentences. Priceless. It's a wonderful thing, to be able to protect yourself and validate your perceptions and experiences. Glad you're here.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Feels right to be here. Thank you
I never even got an invitation to family reunions.
excellent video, excellent info. the scapegoat/victim/target's heart always hopes for an apology SOMEDAY from those who've hurt her, lied about her, smeared her - until a mobbing event shows her exactly how mentally disordered and demonic they truly are. if shock doesn't kill the victim, the victim will go No Contact. they have to in order to survive the rest of their lives. not only did I go No Contact with all in my birth family, I pretended they were all dead. it was my way to survive when understanding there were decades of my life wasted with these "things" that just were not like other humans. thank you for the validation, Rebecca C. Mandeville LMF.
'Things' is what I call them too
@justmeandmyrucksack The beginning of your comment reminds me of my video on the 'repair fantasy' and the narcissistic family system: ua-cam.com/video/eRlLWzpALu4/v-deo.html
When there was less support for survivors... The thought that entered my mind was: ' my goodness, they are like... Posessed'... I know it's extreme .. but the fact the rest of society/whom they are ABLE to present themselves as to the world while victims are truly scapegoated for others actions... Feels nefarious, insidious: it's the secrecy and how their victims are seen as 'crazy' 'bad' when all they are STARVING FOR: is a stable, safe, healthy, truthful environment! It's like a bad horror movie... So that's when I applied the word 'posessed' to these.... Things.
I wholeheartedly could have written this myself. blessings and true healing I wish for you
and anyone experiencing this
I realized I was scapegoat when my father was dying of cancer 15 years ago. Things steadily got worse after his death in that my family enlisted my husband. He did most of the “poking” for them while they ostracized me. I had a physical breakdown requiring removal of ovarian masses. It was during my recovery my husband said to me “I see why your family wants nothing to do with you.” It was then I knew I had to get away from all of them. The rest of my story is not pretty. Suffice it to say I’m still the scapegoat - I am loathed by my brothers. My innate desire to tend to my mother (who has dementia) in spite of the damage has been surprisingly strong however it does not serve me well to do so. I am still the scapegoat and still blamed, shamed and rejected.
I'm so very sorry, Twillie. What a horrific situation to endure and have to pass through. You may have this already but not sure so here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Sending love Twillie.❤
I'm sorry this happened to you. It's so sick. It feels very personal, but it seems the behavior has nothing to do with who the target actually is.
@@rubberbiscuit99 thank you. I’m really glad for this forum. When I tried to put space between me and my family my husband refused to let me do that. He - like many therapists) couldn’t understand how deeply the unhealthy patterns affected me. Once they got him on board it was all out mobbing. In the end he was a victim of my family too. He died less than 2 years later.
I’m so sorry for your suffering. My covert Narcissistic mother started ‘grooming’ my husband from the moment we got married. Then after 24 years of marriage he walked out on me and they have taken him in as their own. He has serious addictions, is abusive in all sorts of ways, cheated, lied and gaslighted. Yet he is still apparently all good and I am all bad. They’ve taken my now 18 year old daughter into the mess as well. She has BPD. And yet I am apparently the one with all the issues. He goes to all the family events and I am excluded. He sits around having meals with my parents and they buy each other gifts. And they get away with it and not one single person holds them to account!
My narcissistic family has my daughter and grandchildren, I'm now shunned. What do you think would happen if I sell my house and disappear?
This phenomenon is one I am currently researching on, what you describe here. It is an extraordinarily painful one, indeed. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse thank you I will check out your page, I could use more help. If I can be of any use to your research....
My narcissistic mother and her two toxic sons (flying monkeys) abandoned me 24 years ago. It hurt, but it also saved me. Now I live alone in peace in beautiful Costa Rica. Pura Vida. 🌺
Yes, this is the strange irony. What was designed to hurt was ultimately what helped to heal.
They felt an intense need to make sure I “pay” for daring to set boundaries. For daring to speak up on why I need them. All extended family are flying monkeys so I have to be no contact with everyone I’m related to and people who are their friends. I’ve grieved and I’m so done! I’m sick of grieving. I can’t do social media because they stalk me mostly through flying monkeys. They cannot just leave me alone.
Yes, it can cause more resistance, if you can accept that and stay strong knowing you tried you can move on ❤
Just recently I said to my Mom, that it is more bad than good for me, to be here.
After so many attempts to have a healthier communication in our family, after different ways to find ways to fit in their needs and accept the things that are "requered" to be with them. Nothing was good or good enough, exclution from familygatherings was the poisoned cherry on the bitter sweet lemoncake.
Now I need to calibrate my senses new and keep more attention to my needs and celebrate life with people that are see me as the person I actually am.
A worthy aim. Glad you're here. Linking you to my resource list in case you are seeking additional support at this time: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Oh my God did I have that happen to me! I thought I had some tools and some set boundaries and I got poked and poked and lost my shit. I fell for it. And I kept saying after I should’ve never gone back I should’ve never gone back
And that’s exactly what happened my sister started with me and I was very clear that I did not want to enter a conversation about past issues that I was done; not interested in having a conversation about mediation-again. And that was intolerable and it got ugly. I should have never gone there. I know they are so much better at this than I am because it is what they are about. But it’s not what I am about so they will always be unrelenting.
Sometimes we need such an experience to finally 'get it'. Sounds like you did. Here's a resource page I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
They don’t want you to change or be strong. They like the control. They will never change and it’s terribly sad but accepting that gives closure ❤️❤️lots of love and hugs ❤️❤️
@@anne-vl7qf I remember the moment when I was arguing and trying for the millionth time to get my sister to understand. It was like this huge lightbulb went off in my head where I thought oh my God she doesn’t want this to get better. She needs the fighting. it’s definitely a crucial recognition but a super hard one to accept. I guess, and I’m just realizing it here, we’re taught forever that the goal is to find common ground. And never introduced to the idea that some people need the drama and the battle and they need to take others down. Not for many decades did I understand Why. And then still so hard to accept. But I have moved on in many ways 🙏💜
@knowsutrue I just came to the same conclusion regarding my younger sister who is verbally abusive and a bullyi. She presents one way to the outside world, but a different way in her own house. 3 of her 5 kids don't talk to her and several of my extended family don't want anything to do w her either. I've gone no contact at least once and tried to repair a year later, but the second time othung changed and she tried to throw me under the bus in an absolutely horrifying way. I sent her one final email laying into her bringing up all the things I knew would hurt her and cut contact for good. My mom, who has covert narcissist tendencies, was diagnosed with Alzheimer's in July, and they moved to live across the street from my sister. I'm sure I will hear all about that. And how I'm a shitty daughter despite having had to be the golden child for most of my life. A role I didn't want and still don't. I am sure our roles have reversed and now my sister is the Golden Child. She can have it....
Hey, don't bring any shame or blame onto yourself. Sometimes we have to 'go back into the ring' so that at our core, we can truly understand how bad things are.
It was a step in your process of healing.
You are so right. When I tried to set healthy simple boundaries with my Mom there was such a huge backlash against me and she disowned me. It was literally too much…
Yes, such extreme reactions indeed can - and do - happen. So sorry this happened to you.
When I healed and tried to set boundaries, my family escalated and when the opportunity presented, they pounced. My brothers also started influencing and bringing my teenaged nieces and nephews in on it- against me and my teenaged son, also. That was the last time I had contact with any of them- 8 years on, my only regret is not doing it sooner. Freedom is priceless
Yes, it is. Thanks for being here and sharing.
The video was helpful, and inspiring. Thank you!
I terminated complete contact with my parents for two reasons: 1) They were damaging to my health; 2) There is no cure for narcissism (imaging studies have shown significant physical alterations in the brains of narcissists - eg, diminished insula).
Cutting them off had some surprising and wholly unexpected results: 1) I was free to begin developing my own individual character; 2) It became much easier to alter my behavior patterns as needed; 3) It has vastly deflated a balloon of general inexplicable anxiety that I carried around with me over the years; 4) I have become more accepting of others despite their short comings 5) I have begun to believe the universe is well-managed (rather than chaotic).
I have begun to see how my families sickness is the result of generations of ancestral trauma.
Powerful observations. I've seen this with clients and in my own life as well. May your comment gives others who suffer from narcissistic family abuse inspiration and hope.
Thank you for this video, Rebecca. It's so interesting, you've once again described my family dynamic (just like last week). Like your client, I've been assigned the "audience" role, as well as the intermittent scapegoat role. Sometimes, my brothers are kind to me, but only if I'm playing my part properly. If I try to talk about myself, one brother refuses to listen, unless it's short and superficial. The other brother may listen, and then use the information to hurt me. It's strange, I am relieved to be out of the family now (it's been several years), but at the same time, it just hurts so much. I've had friendships end that were much closer, healthier, and more meaningful, and I was able to let go with much less pain and anguish. But, this, this is just so painful and the lifelong deception on the part of my covert narcissistic brother is something that I really struggle to wrap my head around. I go through periods where I can't help but get stuck in rumination... What do you do about that, just force yourself to do something else? Sometimes, I do that, but it just keeps coming back... How long does it take to get this out of your system? I'm in my 60's...
Hi Naomi, I understand this pain you are speaking of first-hand. I had a very similar situation. As I say in my book, rumination - and the intense pain - begins to recede as we move into 'radical acceptance'. It is a long process, to be sure, and each survivor has their own unique journey in this regard. I do review the process of FSA and stages of recovery in my book, Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed, included in this list of resources I made for survivors. You might want to check it out: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
You yourself have to look at a child the age you were when you were abused by the narc, covert narc and the flying monkeys and just imagine saying to that child what was said to you; "you are stupid", "you are ugly", "no one likes you", "I don't like you" "You ruined my life" I was 4 years old when I remember those things being said to me. THAT is who you are dealing with, narcissists are sick, you are not going to "fix them or fix it" They hate you, we all have to grow up and deal with what has been done to us and remove ourselves from the system.
It is a terribly damaging - and soul crushing - form of abuse. I actually do this with my clients who are minimizing the impact of FSA (including verbal abuse) - having them imagine it were happening to their child or a child they know - and it is quite effective.
Maybe that's why God doesn't waste time trying to convert demons. He just walks away.
Narcissists are demonic. They don't 'want' to be 'fixed' or cured. They ENJOY being cruel and hurtful to people they claim to love.
They take pleasure in ruining your life, your reputation, your relationships, your ability to discern right from wrong, good from bad and safe from dangerous. They take glee in watching all you hold dear crumble in your hands.
That's more than sick; it's evil.
Sometimes, they don't dare attacking you overtly, but you can feel the hatred, see a slight smirk on their face, the lack of interest... If you have to go back, be prepared, have an escape plan (car, hotel room...), don't be afraid to get up and walk off, very empowering.
Yes, I have an article on these types of preparations on my website, I re-post it during the holiday season.
Hi Rebecca,
Thank you for addressing this. Personally my experience in setting boundaries and holding to them appeared to open the stage, so to speak, to clearly see how far reaching the dysfunction is in the extended family/friends.
Healing, recovery, and restoration is not for the faint of heart. It takes gumption!.
Thank you for your wisdom, understanding, and support. I appreciate you. Jane
Thanks for sharing this, Jane, and such a great point you make. It deserves a dedicated video that I can then link to this one. I'll add it to my list right now.
Takes real guts!!
Yes - I was basically a mute when very young; hard to believe I'm out here doing this today, but I know I am no longer alone.
I went back home to take care of my ailing father. My mother is the narcissist in my family. My father the enabler. I kept saying my mother pokes me under the table and blames me for my reaction. My father said if that’s how I feel, best of luck to me. Yet they need my help. I told them I don’t need thanks, only that they don’t be unkind to me.
Nope. Upsetting homeostasis has dire consequences. I have been so sad about it.
I’m coming to accept that I can’t be who I want to be in my family. I don’t get to belong.
My siblings seem to be seeing it, so there may be hope in the future. My cousin, sister in law, and nieces have been wonderful.
But the disappointment of my father’s rejection is real. The fact that he won’t protect me from my mother’s abuse is simply devastating. I have to choose between visiting him and being abused, or not seeing him.
FSA is real and I am grateful for this light being shone on it. Maybe I will do a PhD about it next.
Thank you, Rebecca Mandeville.
You're very welcome. Glad you're here. Linking you to a list of resources I put together in case you are wanting more support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Before I found this resource, I tried to go to some family events hoping to have limited contact with my siblings. Im discovering that the things that happened to me aren’t isolated incidents. At first I thought they were isolated incidents because for whatever reason, I have been going to therapy and I wasn’t getting any real feedback about what was happening to me. I didn’t have the words to really describe what has been happening to me either. Since Ive been watching the videos, Im now understanding what has been happening to me: mobbing, smear campaign, scapegoating, to name a few. Just having a point of reference has been empowering for me. This powerful video really gave me insight into what has been happening and Im grateful for it and for everyone who has offered comments. I now know that the best way to deal with my family of origin is from a distance.Thank you all!
I'm glad you find these 'living realities / concepts' helpful, Betty. Linking you to a list of resources in case you need some additional support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Rebecca this is so helpful, esp the part about family "mobbing". We Scapegoats can learn better communication skills and set all the healthy boundaries we want, but the dysfunctional family wants nothing to do with the "new" us and we're attacked anew if we "go back". "Rejected and ejected" is spot on. Thank you for calling out this lack in the mental health field in regards to boundaries. Boundaries simply don't work in some families and your acknowledgement of that fact here is incredibly validating
You're welcome, Melissa, I appreciate your comment here as well.
💙🦋
A suggestion: creating a documentary on scapegoating… all the different headings- who is chosen to be a scapegoat in toxic families, the different kinds of abuse a scapegoat has to live through, what happens when a scapegoat tries to set boundaries, what is no contact and the scapegoats ability to heal in that space… use snippets of interviews under each heading… maybe, just maybe the world will start to understand what we have lived through
I did have someone contact me to let me know they would like to do this - a documentary film maker - they are also an FSA survivor.
The poke, poke, poke Literally is what happened with my 6ft 7in brother, during some family photos, he pinched me SO HARD that I yelped and automatically told him to "f off" of course they only noticed my outburst!!
Yes, that happens - It's amazing what more 'empowered' siblings in a dysfunctional or narcissistic family system can get away with, while the FSA adult survivor's every utterance and life movement is picked over and examined (and pathologized) with a fine-toothed comb.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuseyes…they can remind us of what we did 30 years ago as teenagers, like did lots of swearing and at the same time ignore the utterly disrespectful behaviour adult siblings are currently engaging in, affairs etc
boundaries have limits.... sometimes all u can do is stay away
Yes. This is why no contact may be necessary - to protect one's own well-being and mental/emotional health. Yes doing this is still very much a social taboo, as if family members do not at times behave abusively toward each other in these toxic family systems.
Another STELLAR video about scapegoating abuse, thank you! At 15:58 you speak about the need to discuss these critical issues, which is crucial to the overall healing journey of family scapegoats. I think you have an excellent idea for your next book, Rebbeca 😎 Blessings to you and all the scapegoats watching 🙏
Thank you - Many things are 'in the works' behind the scenes. I wish there were 10 of me but hoping the right people show up at the right time to help me carry out all that has been offered to me to benefit FSA adult survivors - and traumatized, dysfunctional families.
Amazingly insightful and informative as we all expected!!!!! ❤🎉❤🎉
I appreciate it, thanks!
Makes perfect sense to me when witnessing how someone I know was being treated. I felt unhappy about it while trying to advocate for that person.
No matter the result, the person on whose behalf you intervened was validated by your seeing something was not right - and taking action.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuseyes and this is a rarity
Wow. Again, I'm blown away by the validation you provide to me, and others, I'm sure. I came back from no contact to attend my father's last days here, and then his funeral. My narc mum, sibling, and the rest of the extended family were all turned against me, thanks to the smearing by my mum. She didn't even tell me when the funeral was, found out on Instagram. Everyone there, even relatives who I thought loved me unconditionally, pretty much shunned me and treated me like rubbish. Civil, at best. I'm back to no contact now. I still feel guilty, though. Thank you for reminding me that going back just doesn't make sense. Heck, the maltreatment is way worse now that I left than before. Thank you for speaking up about this. ❤
Yes - FSA is a bit like addiction - It is often a 'progressive' dis/ease, and you need not be in contact for it to continue in its fatal progression.
I recently privately made the decision to leave my family behind. And embrace my independence. I tried to work things out but my sister lashes out at me for trying to work with her controlling behavior. And my mother continues to absolutely project and neglect me. The game I have to play in my family is that I don’t exist, no voice, and I must be obedient to their egos. It has created horrible relationship patterns for me in my life!! I decided to create my own path and appreciate my personal strength and tap into the resilience I’ve cultivated over years of neglect. I refuse to play this game any more in relationships. They should be at very least mutually respectful. The choice is between being with them, feeling hurt and alone or just being alone. But I do appreciate when I find a mutually respectful person out in the world. It’s a very special thing to me. I do consider them more my family than my own.
So many powerful points in your comment. Especially this one here: "The game I have to play in my family is that I don’t exist, no voice, and I must be obedient to their egos." Not sure if you saw my "10 Rules" video but if not I recommend you watch it here: ua-cam.com/video/IfpqW3328HA/v-deo.html
Thank you, thank you. Thank you once again because this was absolutely one of the most eye-opening videos on the subject of FSA. Your statements were spot on. Please continue to offer your videos, we (former SGs) need them!❤
You're very welcome. You may want to subscribe to my substack where I now publish my FSA articles. You can subscribe for free if you don't want to be part of the paid FSA survivor community. More info' here: familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/about
Without communication there is no relationship. Without respect there is no love. Without trust there is no reason to continue.
Perfectly said - Captures the entire video in three sentences. Thank you.
Family mobbing, been there many times; yes, they are very threatened by honest healthy communication.
Hello Rebecca, I am 52 and for 51 years I was the scapegoat. I have never had a relationship in my whole life. I needed to hear why I could not fix my whole family who abused me, sexually, physically, emotionally, so much I cannot write it. Why I could not have my boundaries accepted. It has only been 2 weeks of no contact and I have been in therapy for 2 years. I would love to be treated with you but I cannot afford too so this you tube channel is all i have and for that I Thank You from the core of my wellbeing for your work so that for me there is a way out.
I'm so very glad you are here, and thank you for reaching out. Here's a resource list I put together for adult survivors of FSA in case you are looking for more support - I highly recommend Rhonda's private all women's Facebook group, by the way: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Thank you Rebecca ❤@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse
a possible nexgen analysis of the scapegoat journey might be to focus on the scapegoat that has gone no contact with entire family - how to build a new life. Because that challenge is very, very tough.
It is indeed very, very tough. I've experienced it first-hand and not that long ago. It would be beyond the scope of one video or article to adequately cover this but I'll give it all some thought. Each person's path to rebuilding will look a bit different. I will be releasing a video this Saturday on reconnecting with people socially, which is part of the rebuilding process, so you might want to check that out.
First of all another excellent video by Rebecca Mandeville. Your book should be mandatory for anyone entering the field of psychology. I left my dysfunctional family in Indiana and moved to California in the early 80’s. My father was a psychopath and my mother a narcissist. I use to break up their domestic violence fights as a child and teenager. I was exposed to sexual, physical and emotional abuse. I selected a career in law enforcement since I already had some training in one area of the field. The better I got the worse it was with the family. My mother had been cheating for years with her boss. She finally divorced my father but kept having sex with both of them. My father had stalked her already and I warned her he was going to kill her. He finally tried while she was with her boss at a restaurant. He tired to kill both of them with a hunting knife. Both of them survived and he went to prison. As time went on I educated myself about narcissism. I finally figured out my mother’s behavior toward me. She was jealous of my successes in my professional life and personal achievements as an amateur dressage rider. In 2005 she visited me and my husband against our wishes. She stayed for two weeks, mind you uninvited. One morning she came into the kitchen and said to me if she could do her life over she would have had one, two or no children. I am the oldest of 4. I froze but said nothing. She is an undiagnosed narcissist on the borderline personality spectrum. She blew up and acted like a toddler when I didn’t agree with her recollection about a past event. She left and that was the last time I saw her. I cut her out of my life. Best move I made and should have done it sooner. I was brainwashed and conditioned to have blind loyalty. Through the years I feel like I escaped a cult. After years of therapy and support from friends I am finally living life through the eyes of the little girl I lost to their abuse. My parents tried to extinguish my flame but it didn’t happen.
Our society doesn’t acknowledge people like us. I use to ask every arrestee about their childhoods. Everyone of them had been either sexually, physically or mentally abused. Why does the USA have more incarcerated citizens than any other country? This needs to be examined and talked about by individuals that have the power to change things. God Bless you Rebecca for your knowledge and educating others about this type of abuse and trauma.
"Living life as the little girl I lost"
I'm doing the same. I didnt think anyone else understood this. What is that?!
I don't even know how to explain this to someone and can't afford a therapist at the moment.
Does anyone understand what's happening to us?!
Rebecca, if you read this please reply.
If anyone else "gets it" please also respond.
@melaniekellner6056 Powerful comment, Melanie. Society needs to wake up to the reality of family abuse - including 'invisible' (psycho-emotional) abuse such as FSA. I hope that this channel and my book and all of you who comment here will raise awareness. Thank you for being here and sharing your story of endurance, courage, and resilience.
@Alex-vj6wr What is happening can be found in my book, listed at the top of this resource page I put together for adult survivors of this form of psycho-emotional / systemic abuse, what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA): Here's a list of resources for FSA adult survivors I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
Thank you for your comment. I have been obsessed with reading about crime and criminals since I was a kid. I understand better why at this point in my life. I bet you are very good at your job, and I agree that we need to change how we think of mental health in our society. We create and nurture mental illness. We could do better. ❤️
@@rubberbiscuit99
Thank you for your kind comment. Yes I was a fit for that career. I am still obsessed with crime like yourself.
I can really relate to the reject- eject analogy 😳😳😳 yes! I became healthier and centered. The attacks escalated into a cyber stalking situation … even went so far as to alienate/ psycho abuse my son… I was very much more successful in life and had a son that was very much supported by a positive environment. Parental alienation and torture was in store for him… horrific… and of course it was ALL my fault for not seeing it…
And if anyone reads your comment and thinks, "Oh, come on, now..." - This type of situation you describe absolutely can and does happen. I plan to do a full video on this but it takes time to gather the data and figure out how to present it as it can be sensitive... for example, when you have family that works in high-placed government jobs, and who can influence the court/judge, etc. Thank you for being a channel member, btw, I appreciate your support.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse ❤️🙏
Found your channel a week ago doing a UA-cam search on when the narcissist parent passes. Been on this healing journey since 2017 after a relationship with a clinically diagnosed female ASPD. O was lucky to have found a trauma informed therapist/psychologist that helped me along with my CPTSD, I was diagnosed with in the early 90s but not much was known about it like now. I've done a lot of work the past 7 yrs and now at 59 I feel free after diving deep into the works of Walker, Bradshaw and Hare. Your content is much needed these, it adds another layer of healing. Theres a lot of complexities to these dynamics.Great discussion and content, keep up the great work. Never heard of FSA till this past week and it's spot on. Take care.
Thank you very much for your comment. I'm glad you're here. Here's a resource page in case you need some support: www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you, will do I subscribed to your webpage a few days back. I will be ordering your book to add to my library.
Wonderful to hear! I hope you find help and inspiration, as well as needed education, in my introductory book on FSA.
@@blakcanisyep, lots of us have libraries! I bought a hard back copy of Rebecca’s book.
@@melliecrann-gaoth4789 that's very true.
I am so glad that you have named this role of being just an audience in the family, because I had also come to that understanding of this as part of my role. The sequence is something like this- scapegoated by parents (alcoholic depressed father, martyr codependent mother), learning to be invisible to avoid being hurt by them and 2 golden children older siblings, overachieving but still invisible and devalued, can have visibility as long as you sit and watch. They will tell you what they are interested in about your life, but it’s just information gathering so that they can further their own roles. Only they have genuine feelings or value or rights within the system. Any strength that I display is explained away in some demeaning way.
Thank you so much for helping us to describe what we’ve experienced.
Powerful summary - I hope many here read your comment, thank you.
I would also like to add it doesn’t change when you leave a few years and come back. I moved out of state for almost 4 years and came back to same state where family is thinking we are all getting older maybe everyone is more mature now. I was wrong. Nothing changed. Maybe even got worse.
I addressed this dynamic (which I call "the repair fantasy") here: ua-cam.com/video/eRlLWzpALu4/v-deo.html
It’s so good that this info is discussed now.
What could be is losted.What should be not allowed.It’s there way no matter what you lose,lair,evil,mental case and one way or another you will eat it lose.Any and all things are held and used against you even if it’s right or wrong they have power / backers.They are god,judge,punsher you will pay in the end. I didn’t ask to be born..
When family systems are 'closed', it is indeed difficult for the light of awareness to get in. Hence, these very dark behaviors.
Went to a family reunion several years ago and saw how sick my family is. I never returned.
Eye-opening once you get the awareness and can begin to observe the dynamics, isn't it?
Very wise
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse
Am very saddened that many of my extended relatives on the Italian side are sociopaths. On the German side they are all alcoholic/toxic.
There is often so much trauma intergenerationally when one is of European descent.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse
My father was a German Jew and my mother was Italian Catholic.
Torey Hayden's books are great and I can see how they could relate to family systems and scapegoating.
I'll check them out, thank you!
I left home when I was 17 years old.
As soon as I was old enough.
I came back when I was 42 years old.
Because I thought I was an adult now.
I'm not that little kid anymore.
I thought I could face my mother.
I was convinced.
But I experienced the opposite.
She said things and did things that gave me the bigger shock than I have experienced as a child.
She destroyed me so much that I felt like I was in a moore and sinking to the bottom.
I thought what ??
What??
Later I thought she had already destroyed me as a child. Thats why she could just continue.
This is heartbreaking. FSA is in a sense progressive systemic 'illness'. It rarely improves after re-engaging with scapegoating family members after limiting or ending contact. Here's a list of resources for FSA adult survivors I put together in case you need more support. www.scapegoatrecovery.com/updated-fsa-recovery-resources-2023/
The ‘pecking’ order. The bullies don’t want change. I did try to reconnect but only briefly, as I saw the same abuse. I gave a full stop there and then. Only needed one reminder ❤
You're a quick study (!)
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse took years to finally disconnect, I love my family, that’s the problem. Just couldn’t do it anymore. You’re doing an amazing job helping people. I’m 69 and I’ve experienced a lifetime of it but not anymore ❤️
Your words will surely give others here hope. Thank you, Anne.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse you do an amazing job, very admirable and if any comment helps then I’m happy to contribute 💪🥰🏴
Family mobbing actually happens. It has happened to me numerous times usually when I come in with new ideas or videos on a narcissist. That's when the whole family turns around. Gangs up on me, ostracizes me and yeah, you don't don't think it's not a real thing.
It is most definitely real, unfortunately. And can at times result in physical abuse between adult family members, including siblings.
Now there's a vivid image: "That scapegoated adult survivor is all alone on the battle field, w/all guns pointed at them."
I will take this visual with me when I'm working through my emotions surrounding my role as FS.
Long comment incoming:
Family mobbing is terrifying. I commented about it on your last video. I didn't just freeze in the situation, surrounding my father while he was dying, I shut down.
It gave me no space to figure out and understand what I wanted to do when it came to dealing with my own place in the situation of my father needing care. I went into survival and stayed there. Even after it was over. I did go NC shortly after, but that was also survival driven.
I also did a lot of fawning when in the presence of my siblings during that time.
I do regret a lot not standing up for myself, and have a tough time with self-forgiveness around that. But I also go quickly to anger at the same time in thinking about it because of my siblings and mother's behavior. Kinda like, "How dare they treat me like that and put me in such a position!!"
My father was abusive my whole life and quite self-absorbed. A child in an adult body quite frankly. His house, his way. His life, his way. Kids don't deserve consideration or a choice in certain matters. My sibs and I were on the same page in my father's behavior when we were younger, even into young adulthood. But when he got sick, I was expected to suck it up, step up and deny it all. Words I remember my brother saying to me once, after he'd calmed down after raging in my face: "It wasn't THAT bad." He'd said it also after talking about some friend of his and how utterly abusive that guy's father was. Now I know what my brother was doing was gas-lighting me.
All that being said about my father, I still had a right and a need to grieve losing him, grieve the young father I remembered and was no longer there. My siblings and mother took away my opportunity to grieve and to be present in the situation with my father as he was dying.
The fear has kept me away from my siblings for sure. My communication tools would never work with them. They are both self-absorbed for one thing, but they also will likely always believe that I'm the problem. My mother thinks so too.
But yeah, I thought I could get a reconciliation with my mother and only my mother. I've been adamant about not doing so with my siblings since going NC with them. And yes, I ended up feeling unheard, not-understood, like she actually thought it was okay for the way everyone behaved toward me because I was the difficult one not just simply stepping up with all the vim and vigor family should do. She didn't say those things, but it was clear she was confused about what I was saying about how I felt about their behavior and my reasons for going NC. I did go into distress mode, raising my voice trying desperately to be heard.
In our communications here and there she has mentioned wanting to get together. When she still lived in FL (has since moved back to the county we all live in) she wanted me to come visit. Before she moved back, she was saying in texts that she wanted to start to rebuild our relationship by getting together. There was no way. I wouldn't trust her to not let my sibs know about such things and have them show up. In the past, I'd have given her the bene of the doubt thinking she could never. But not anymore.
I get it to a point wanting to get back in there and start using certain skills and boundaries learned while NC...show 'em how strong you've gotten. But that can be like reapproaching a hornets' nest that you JUST disturbed mere moments before, even though you may have been NC for many years. PLUS, despite all the work done by the scapegoat, the abusers/bullies have likely not done any self-reflecting so they will behave the same. I think it's really hard to over-ride those trauma responses, especially since it's kinda normal to be nervous about seeing someone (even someone healthy, let alone someone toxic) that you haven't seen in a long time. I would equate that nervousness about seeing your bullies again to being called out to fight after school by someone you know you don't possibly stand a chance against.
A long comment worth reading, and I hope that many here will take the time to do so. Thank you for sharing what you have learned - very 'on point' for this video.
@@beyondfamilyscapegoatingabuse Thank you. 🤍
I go back to that famous sentence from the 1980s movie "War Games" - The only way to win, is to not play (paraphrased).
It's a rigged game. No reason to play.
You hit the nail on the head with me and my situation. Your videos have become a part of my therapy. Thank you!
You're welcome!