Your videos are a great service to the public. I'm studying theory in the academy of music in Jerusalem, Israel and these videos are really helping me reenforce what I'm learning. Thank you so much!!! ❤️🥰
I love that the slides are not full blank and have the brown background edge.. Staring at your own hand, or dancing with the threes, feeling and understanding more and more what the expression of a dog that live on the streets means, all his suffering, presence, joy; admiring the creation and living together with nature's time, are such things that are rare and precious where and with who I live and see and walk and dream.. Thank you so much for these amazing classes Seth! Lovely, wonderful, thank you thank you!
First of all, thanks, Prof. Seth for presenting this informative and deep presentation that brings us an excellent course. In this video, I have two questions in this lesson 5 that are almost ambiguous for me: 1) At 13:50 in Video is being explained which is going to find out Roman Numeral while the minor chord is harmonic. We know that the 7'th interval should be raised half step while the chord is the harmonic minor. Hence, it is supposed to make C sharpen to C# while we are here in Dm (harmonic minor), and we already applied C# instead of C in Dominant and Subdominant Triads (5'th and 7'th degrees). Why do not we apply C# instead of C in Mediant Triad (3'th degree), and this only includes F, A, and C instead of F, A, C#? 2) Similarly, at 14:23 seconds in the Video, we are looking for the Roman Nemural while the minor chord is melodic, so the 6'th interval should be raised half step (sharpen B flat with natural B). Again, in this scenario, the Trials of 2nd and 6th degrees contain B flat while in the 4th degree B flat is neutralized to natural B. Bests,
Great questions! The answer is the same in both cases, actually. The chords shown here are the ones that actually get USED in classical compositions of the 1700-1900 era. In minor keys, it is certainly *possible* to build chords like the augmented mediant triad or the minor (rather than diminished) supertonic. But in practice, these are just not very common.
Written on a cantelope ahaha!! Thanks for these video's! They are really helping me out with my studies of Shoenberg, that book is like rubbing sand in my eyes! Cheers Seth! I am sharing with my fellow students ;) Keep up the good work x
Oh wow, I have exactly the same situation! good to know I am not the only one that has trouble with his books. Currently I am reading his book on composition and I have had a few glances into his book about harmony. I have decided to just use it a resource next to other information, otherwise I just get stuck and frustrated.
@@pieterwattel2885 My only advice is to keep soldiering on with it. it all makes sense eventually then gets worse... Will have a look for his one about composition. Nice one!!
I've really gotten into music theory lately, wanting to write some music of my own, up to this point this has all been review for me - but it never hurts to relearn the fundamentals! As the saying goes, basics win ball games; I'm certainly looking forward to learning as the series goes on!
I'm wondering why the triad built on the raised 6th of the melodic minor isn't mentioned. I think I see it being used by Bach. Was it considered too gnarly by the classical period?
That's absolutely true: you see it in Bach (sometimes as a seventh chord) much more often than in Mozart/Haydn. When you do, though, it's nearly always part of a single idiom: a bass line that rises from scale degree ^5 up to tonic, through the notes of the melodic minor scale. It's probably too dissonant to be a standalone, general-use chord. (Though Mozart does have a half-diminished seventh over raised ^6 just before the first half-cadence in the Gm symphony, K. 550. It's unusual.)
one more point... it is interesting to note that the leading tone dimished triad is the same as the dominant triad built on the 5th degree of the minor scale but without a root. I suppose the alteration of this note gives makes both chords pretty much work the same way, as a stepping stone to the tonic without the major second interval normally found in the natural minor
Glad it's helpful, Dom! (And you're right that the series title is a bit misleading. The series began as a supplement to my theory class for conservatory first-years. So it's only "basic" if you're already a somewhat experienced performer. Eventually, the series leaves the "basics" behind and gets fairly advanced.)
Great video! The word "position" seems to be ambiguous, referring to both open and close as well as to root position/1st inversion/2nd inversion. I tend to use the word position to refer to the latter and "spacing" to refer to open/close. One umbrella term should be able to refer to root position/1st inversion/2nd inversion, and I like "position." Then there's "voicing," which I've always considered to be the general distribution of notes in a chord to create a particular sonority. What's your opinion?
You make a great point here; it's unfortunate that "position" can customarily refer to two entirely independent parameters. What's curious is that-in my experience-"open- vs. closed-position" is the sort of thing one teaches early on and then rarely refers to again. In my own teaching, I think I almost always use the (better) term "voicing" to describe the particular pitch-space arrangement of a chord's notes. One sees similarly confusing double-usages in other areas of music theory as well. The term "inversion" means at least FOUR things, depending on context: (1) specifying which chord degree is in the bass of any given harmony; (2) the transformation of a two-note interval by moving the bottom note to the top; (3) the turning of a musical configuration "upside-down" in pitch space (either tonally or literally); and (4) a set of pitch-class mappings around an "inversional index" (as in traditional post-tonal theory). What a mess!!!
Very interesting, thank you. I noticed that in the minor triads you did not raise scale degree 7 to C# for the mediant chord. Is this because it would then have formed an augmented chord? Is there a problem with this?
Great question! The issue isn't whether someone in 2024 has a "problem" with an augmented triad. What matters is that composers in the 18th century didn't think of that as an option for a mediant chord. (When you see something that looks like an augmented triad on the mediant, you can be sure that one the notes is going to resolve shortly into the "real" chord tone, making the augmented triad something of an illusion.) Backing up a bit: this series is about the classical style in particular, so I base things on what those composers did. But it's worth pointing out that the augmented triad really did seem to perplex composers for a long time. Even into the mid- and late 19th century, composers who are out on the bleeding edge of harmonic innovation STILL tend to avoid just sitting on an augmented triad for very long. They only sneak "in the back door" later on, when they act as dominants in jazz-style harmony. Always struck me as very interesting.
@@SethMonahan Thank you for that very quick response. I always forget that different styles of music have different customs and "rules", and when you make a video, you have to choose something as a basis rather than everything. Some of the texts I've read tell me to "treat the mediant with care", but they never say how, exactly. It's almost as though it has a dirty little secret that its impolite to discuss :) I'm really enjoying this series, thank you.
Great question! Generally speaking, composers in the Baroque and classical periods don't like to treat augmented triads as independent chords. We do hear the SOUND of augmented triads pretty regularly, but they normally come about through some combination of chord tones with non-chord tones-i.e., passing tones, neighbor tones, etc. If you want an example, look at mm. 8-9 of the C-minor Fugue in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier Book II. In those two bars, there are four moments where we hear augmented triads. And they happen to be at exactly the same point in each bar: the second 16th of beat 3 and the third sixteenth of beat 4. But in all four cases, you've got a combination of proper chord tones with some incidental chromatic decoration. In other words, in analyzing the passage, we'd want to ignore the notes that make those "augmented triads," in favor of the structural notes they briefly displace. (For example: in bar 8, the augmented triad Eb-B-G on beat 3.2 is "really" just a C-minor triad whose root C is briefly diverted to its lower neighbor B-natural.) By contrast, the version of III with the natural scale-degree ^7-the one that forms a regular major triad-is very common. You can learn about it in Video 33.
thanks, nice content, and you present it like a true pro! It is interesting when you talk about the sub dominant chord in minor and how that comes in major form sometime. Whenever I find music that uses the major sub dominant instead of the minor one in minor keys, I always atribute that to dorian mode rather than rationalize it like you have as simply being a raised note. Is this wrong?
Hi Arman! You're right: in music of the past 150 years or so, major IV in minor is almost always best understood as Dorian mode. We see the Dorian IV in late-19th-century composers like Fauré and Mussorgsky all the time. But if you go much further back, to the 1700s, one finds a very particular use of major IV in minor that doesn't make sense as "Dorian": when a bass line rises from dominant to tonic through the notes of the melodic minor scale. Over raised ^6, you'll sometimes find a IV6 or IV6/5 chord. If you're curious, an example: the slow movement of Mozart's K. 488 Piano Concerto is in F#m, and in bar 7, I believe, the bass climbs from D# to E# to F#, and the chord over D# is a B-major triad. That's what I'm referring to.
Can the VII subtonic be used as a secondary dominant or applied dominant chord? VII subtonic of V? or when is the VII subtonic chord used in classical music, how does classical composers use the VII subtonic chord?
Glad to help! People have some WEIRD ways of explaining inversion, like saying "take the bottom note and put it on top," or things like that. Makes no sense. All that matters is which chord degree is in the bass.
This channel is so good
very underrated channel, I agree
Your videos are a great service to the public. I'm studying theory in the academy of music in Jerusalem, Israel and these videos are really helping me reenforce what I'm learning.
Thank you so much!!! ❤️🥰
God bless you for these videos. You make this material so accessible and digestible.
Thanks for the kind words, John!
Outstanding episode in the most concise in-depth intro to Classical Music "theory" ever produced (I think). What a relief!
Thank you so much for your videos! I'm learning so much more from you than I do from my professor.
I love that the slides are not full blank and have the brown background edge.. Staring at your own hand, or dancing with the threes, feeling and understanding more and more what the expression of a dog that live on the streets means, all his suffering, presence, joy; admiring the creation and living together with nature's time, are such things that are rare and precious where and with who I live and see and walk and dream..
Thank you so much for these amazing classes Seth! Lovely, wonderful, thank you thank you!
what are you talking about
@@nfntrnrtr the slides layout
@@nfntrnrtr life expression opportunities
First of all, thanks, Prof. Seth for presenting this informative and deep presentation that brings us an excellent course. In this video, I have two questions in this lesson 5 that are almost ambiguous for me:
1) At 13:50 in Video is being explained which is going to find out Roman Numeral while the minor chord is harmonic.
We know that the 7'th interval should be raised half step while the chord is the harmonic minor. Hence, it is supposed to make C sharpen to C# while we are here in Dm (harmonic minor), and we already applied C# instead of C in Dominant and Subdominant Triads (5'th and 7'th degrees).
Why do not we apply C# instead of C in Mediant Triad (3'th degree), and this only includes F, A, and C instead of F, A, C#?
2) Similarly, at 14:23 seconds in the Video, we are looking for the Roman Nemural while the minor chord is melodic, so the 6'th interval should be raised half step (sharpen B flat with natural B). Again, in this scenario, the Trials of 2nd and 6th degrees contain B flat while in the 4th degree B flat is neutralized to natural B.
Bests,
Great questions! The answer is the same in both cases, actually. The chords shown here are the ones that actually get USED in classical compositions of the 1700-1900 era. In minor keys, it is certainly *possible* to build chords like the augmented mediant triad or the minor (rather than diminished) supertonic. But in practice, these are just not very common.
@@SethMonahan Thanks for the explanation, Sir.
Written on a cantelope ahaha!! Thanks for these video's! They are really helping me out with my studies of Shoenberg, that book is like rubbing sand in my eyes! Cheers Seth! I am sharing with my fellow students ;) Keep up the good work x
Oh wow, I have exactly the same situation! good to know I am not the only one that has trouble with his books. Currently I am reading his book on composition and I have had a few glances into his book about harmony. I have decided to just use it a resource next to other information, otherwise I just get stuck and frustrated.
@@pieterwattel2885 My only advice is to keep soldiering on with it. it all makes sense eventually then gets worse... Will have a look for his one about composition. Nice one!!
Lots of great info in 20 min ....Thanx!
This series is helping me so much
Thank you, Professor Monahan!
I've really gotten into music theory lately, wanting to write some music of my own, up to this point this has all been review for me - but it never hurts to relearn the fundamentals! As the saying goes, basics win ball games; I'm certainly looking forward to learning as the series goes on!
I'm wondering why the triad built on the raised 6th of the melodic minor isn't mentioned. I think I see it being used by Bach. Was it considered too gnarly by the classical period?
That's absolutely true: you see it in Bach (sometimes as a seventh chord) much more often than in Mozart/Haydn. When you do, though, it's nearly always part of a single idiom: a bass line that rises from scale degree ^5 up to tonic, through the notes of the melodic minor scale. It's probably too dissonant to be a standalone, general-use chord. (Though Mozart does have a half-diminished seventh over raised ^6 just before the first half-cadence in the Gm symphony, K. 550. It's unusual.)
@@SethMonahan Thank you, Prof!
one more point... it is interesting to note that the leading tone dimished triad is the same as the dominant triad built on the 5th degree of the minor scale but without a root. I suppose the alteration of this note gives makes both chords pretty much work the same way, as a stepping stone to the tonic without the major second interval normally found in the natural minor
Super helpful. Took me a while to find the right video as I expected this be very basic by the title.
Glad it's helpful, Dom! (And you're right that the series title is a bit misleading. The series began as a supplement to my theory class for conservatory first-years. So it's only "basic" if you're already a somewhat experienced performer. Eventually, the series leaves the "basics" behind and gets fairly advanced.)
Great video! The word "position" seems to be ambiguous, referring to both open and close as well as to root position/1st inversion/2nd inversion.
I tend to use the word position to refer to the latter and "spacing" to refer to open/close. One umbrella term should be able to refer to root position/1st inversion/2nd inversion, and I like "position." Then there's "voicing," which I've always considered to be the general distribution of notes in a chord to create a particular sonority.
What's your opinion?
You make a great point here; it's unfortunate that "position" can customarily refer to two entirely independent parameters. What's curious is that-in my experience-"open- vs. closed-position" is the sort of thing one teaches early on and then rarely refers to again. In my own teaching, I think I almost always use the (better) term "voicing" to describe the particular pitch-space arrangement of a chord's notes.
One sees similarly confusing double-usages in other areas of music theory as well. The term "inversion" means at least FOUR things, depending on context: (1) specifying which chord degree is in the bass of any given harmony; (2) the transformation of a two-note interval by moving the bottom note to the top; (3) the turning of a musical configuration "upside-down" in pitch space (either tonally or literally); and (4) a set of pitch-class mappings around an "inversional index" (as in traditional post-tonal theory). What a mess!!!
Very interesting, thank you. I noticed that in the minor triads you did not raise scale degree 7 to C# for the mediant chord. Is this because it would then have formed an augmented chord? Is there a problem with this?
Great question! The issue isn't whether someone in 2024 has a "problem" with an augmented triad. What matters is that composers in the 18th century didn't think of that as an option for a mediant chord. (When you see something that looks like an augmented triad on the mediant, you can be sure that one the notes is going to resolve shortly into the "real" chord tone, making the augmented triad something of an illusion.)
Backing up a bit: this series is about the classical style in particular, so I base things on what those composers did. But it's worth pointing out that the augmented triad really did seem to perplex composers for a long time. Even into the mid- and late 19th century, composers who are out on the bleeding edge of harmonic innovation STILL tend to avoid just sitting on an augmented triad for very long. They only sneak "in the back door" later on, when they act as dominants in jazz-style harmony. Always struck me as very interesting.
@@SethMonahan Thank you for that very quick response. I always forget that different styles of music have different customs and "rules", and when you make a video, you have to choose something as a basis rather than everything.
Some of the texts I've read tell me to "treat the mediant with care", but they never say how, exactly. It's almost as though it has a dirty little secret that its impolite to discuss :)
I'm really enjoying this series, thank you.
“Written on a cantaloupe”
Could be a grapefruit. I'm flexible.
Hi Prof Monahan, in a harmonic minor scale, why isn't the top note of the mediant traid also raised, so it becomes an augmented triad?
Great question! Generally speaking, composers in the Baroque and classical periods don't like to treat augmented triads as independent chords. We do hear the SOUND of augmented triads pretty regularly, but they normally come about through some combination of chord tones with non-chord tones-i.e., passing tones, neighbor tones, etc.
If you want an example, look at mm. 8-9 of the C-minor Fugue in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier Book II. In those two bars, there are four moments where we hear augmented triads. And they happen to be at exactly the same point in each bar: the second 16th of beat 3 and the third sixteenth of beat 4. But in all four cases, you've got a combination of proper chord tones with some incidental chromatic decoration. In other words, in analyzing the passage, we'd want to ignore the notes that make those "augmented triads," in favor of the structural notes they briefly displace. (For example: in bar 8, the augmented triad Eb-B-G on beat 3.2 is "really" just a C-minor triad whose root C is briefly diverted to its lower neighbor B-natural.)
By contrast, the version of III with the natural scale-degree ^7-the one that forms a regular major triad-is very common. You can learn about it in Video 33.
So there is first and second inversion with triads but what about if I add a seventh on top of a chord and make it lowest tone?
Third inversion!
thanks, nice content, and you present it like a true pro! It is interesting when you talk about the sub dominant chord in minor and how that comes in major form sometime. Whenever I find music that uses the major sub dominant instead of the minor one in minor keys, I always atribute that to dorian mode rather than rationalize it like you have as simply being a raised note. Is this wrong?
Hi Arman! You're right: in music of the past 150 years or so, major IV in minor is almost always best understood as Dorian mode. We see the Dorian IV in late-19th-century composers like Fauré and Mussorgsky all the time. But if you go much further back, to the 1700s, one finds a very particular use of major IV in minor that doesn't make sense as "Dorian": when a bass line rises from dominant to tonic through the notes of the melodic minor scale. Over raised ^6, you'll sometimes find a IV6 or IV6/5 chord. If you're curious, an example: the slow movement of Mozart's K. 488 Piano Concerto is in F#m, and in bar 7, I believe, the bass climbs from D# to E# to F#, and the chord over D# is a B-major triad. That's what I'm referring to.
Great question and answer - thank you both!!!
Can the VII subtonic be used as a secondary dominant or applied dominant chord? VII subtonic of V? or when is the VII subtonic chord used in classical music, how does classical composers use the VII subtonic chord?
lol , only the bass is important! (to know which inversion is) ... aaah my headache is disappearing
Glad to help! People have some WEIRD ways of explaining inversion, like saying "take the bottom note and put it on top," or things like that. Makes no sense. All that matters is which chord degree is in the bass.
Thanks :)
Save my life.
8'm more in pop and ambient, so I learn a lot of it, but I take it not 100% the theory like in classic music.