Actually Star Trek Has Always Been Preachy
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2018
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Have people already forgotten the Kirk and Picard and Sisko speeches? It's almost once an episode where the captain makes a speech about morality, humanity, or something else profound. They've done racism, sexism, homophobia, fascism, militarism, mass media, propaganda, etc etc etc
Sorry, my mind is stuck on picturing Captain Kirk,giving a speech on sexism.
@@christelheadington1136 That final episode was a blotch on the face of the original series.
It must be so ingrained in people's minds that they forgot by this point.
The Federation is a multicultural socialist utopia (drops mike)
Kirk's reputation has basically nothing to do with how the character was actually portrayed on screen. He was never actually the sexist womanizer that popular culture depicts him as.
Honestly, Trek's lack of subtlety has always been one of my favorite things about it XD
I love it so much.
Well said.
Star Trek has always been "socially progressive", there was a time when Trekkies / Trekkers were proud of this. It's kind of unbelievable that statements like this should come from the fandom.
On the bright side, I do think fans like this are a minority. In the replies to the Reddit post I read (which is here: www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/72svii/star_trek_discovery_is_trying_way_too_hard_to_be/) almost everyone treats the original poster like a dipshit who is missing the point.
They don't seem to be a minority in UA-cam comment threads, though. It feels like *_we_* are! (I don't mean this channel, but on most others.)
Isn't it strange? The whole POINT of the show was the message of humanity working all together to reach its goals. How anyone could watch even a single episode and not get that is beyond me. How can they maneuver with such massive blinkers on?
Steve Shives Yeah, but it’s that loud minority that makes the majority look bad.
@@sharonminsuk A little late to the party, but I don't think the "fans" that are leaving these kinds of comments aren't really fans at all. There has been instances of people on the alt-right infiltrating fandoms to get people on their side. If anyone tries to call them out on it, they shout "free speech!" in order to shut the complaint down.
“Far Beyond the Stars” is one of the best episodes of TV, in my opinion. I re-watch that episode all the time.
I have always been confused by "fans" that get upset about messages of social justice. I always think "have you ever watched Star Trek, at all, ever?"
My guess is that because all of these people see those as "Settled" issues.. they use SJW to describe changes they don't like, on issues they've deemed as invalid(because they weren't settled before these people had a chance to grow up and think about them) and are extremely reactionary towards.
It becomes more apparent, when you watch as they discuss the "Settled" issues.. which exposes they don't have the proper skills to evaluate any of these issues at all and the only reason they accept the "Settled" issues is just because they were raised up believing it to be.. but we've seen these people shifting towards ethnostates etc.. suggesting they would never have had the skills to determine these things were morally wrong to begin with.
Very well said.
Pretty much this. During the so-called Sad Puppies campaign to game the Hugo Awards, one of their leaders mentioned Trek as part of the SF tradition they claimed had been superseded by alleged "SJW" storytelling. When challenged about how Star Trek was literally an "SJW" show, his response was that the issues that it highlighted have been resolved, and that Trek apparently wasn't as heavy handed as, say Ancilary Justice by Ann Leckie. (Which is an amazing novel, it deserved all the awards)
But in my opinion, like Steve says around 16 minutes in, it's all about familairty. The leaders of the Sad Puppies in 2015 were the same age as me - early 40s, and as such the original Star Trek was a classic before we were born, they grew up with Trek from a very young age. Similarly the rhetoric of the Sad Puppies was based around things that were classic when they were young - Robert Heinlein and Arthur C. Clarke style novels which are about the engineering more than the social issues (ignore that many of Heinlein's most-beloved works posited alternative social systems - the fascism of Starship Troopers, the Anarchist Libertariansim and Polyarmory of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and the Free-love Hippie commune in Stranger in a Strange Land).
But like, Cyberpunk came along when these people were children! You can find Bruce Sterling's Cheap Truth zines from the 80s online where he calls out that traditionalist SF as stale and outdated. My personal journey through SF embraced these elements when I was a teenager - and even then, the debate was settled. I read Neuromancer 10 years after its first publication. but in the US especially there seems to be a strong vein of SF fandom that doesn't really want to move past that whizz-bang adventures in space thing.
Not that there's anything wrong with whizz-bang adventures in space. I have an unclean love for BattleTech, for example.
@@Vynjira-chan Thank you for your well reasoned and cogent response. I grew up watching the original series. Saw my first episode at age 4 (born March, 1964) and am dusky of hue. I love all iterations of Star Trek... even the flawed series such as Voyager. Star Trek is Social Justice projected onto the screen utilizing allegory as its primary vehicle. Thanks again.
i got in a fight with a racist on reddit about this. it's like... what show were you watching? it was a very WTF moment.
Making commentary on the social issues of “today” has always been the thing I like most about Star Trek.
I think the differences in skin color is a stupid reason to bash discovery. Like think about it, why would we be the only species that has different skin colors 🤨
Tuvak was a Vulcan.
@@janetreid4515 before tivock, in one ds9 episode, where sisko goes to the other universe, we see a balck Vulcan, played by the same guy who plays tuvok
We certainly aren't the only species on Earth that varies in skin tone, sometimes quite widely. Often this happens when a specoes spreads over a vast area, like the kinds of species that dominate a planet (like humans and most Star Trek species), but it isn't even that unusual for such differences to be stable within a more closely inbred population.
Biologically it doesn't make sense though. The varying skin shades on Earth among humans are due to a single pigment, melanin, which serve as sun protection. It is highly unlikely for two different sunblock molecules to evolve in the same species, so unless they've evolved a different pigment for an entirely different reason, they should all be a range of shades of a single pigment color over the color of their blood seen through their skin. Klingon blood is red, their pigmentation is brown just like ours. Vulcans blood is green, and so for him to be pasty white with a greenish undertone his pigmentation must be a chalky white. A brown pigmentation for the same purpose in the same species is rather absurd, so the gene for that brown pigment would have to come from another species. Tuvok must have cross-species ancestry. Not racism, simple evolutionary biology. The writers failed to do their biology homework. They could have explained it easily by stating Tuvok was a mixed-species character like Spock, but they didn't think it through enough to realize they had to.
Racism is why
TOS had a russian during the harshest times of the cold war, had the first interracial kiss and a constant tone of the negativity of war between the korean and vietnam war. So, when did it become preachy? Lol
Great part of the great movie "The Voyage Home',Chekov asking people on the street where the nukes are kept.
@@christelheadington1136 Nucwear Wessels!
And it was only twenty-ish years since the end of the Second World War. I imagine there were a lot of viewers who still harboured prejudice against Japanese people because of what they experienced during that time, but they still put a Japanese-American man on the bridge. I think it's worth remembering how radical that must've been at the time. The show took a lot of people who would've been perceived at the time as enemies of America and represented them as heroic figures.
It wasn't the first interracial kiss, by the way.
@@Serai3 no, but it was close
The dialogue at the end of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is so important to me, I took down the Japanese translation to eventually use in ESL classes here in Japan. It's one of my favorite episodes because it IS Star Trek for me, and because I also love stories where characters destroy themselves.
How's that go?
I really liked this episode and the trip down memory lane. As I mentioned in your comments section before I'm a Special Educator and a HUGE fan of Star Trek, Twilight Zone, and other quirky shows.
I've used episodes and parts of those episodes in class and in pull-out sessions with students. Whether it's for social studies/history/science, behavior management, or practice inferencing; these shows are tops. They say more to children than preaching (i.e. "lecturing") or throwing stale printed materials at them. You discuss what they've seen and get their opinions. It's absolutely AMAZING when a student presents an idea or angle/view of looking at a situation that I haven't seen or considered before and they can defend it. That's critical thinking. I don't see my job as dishing out facts. My mission is to help people use learn to use the tools available to them, to become as self sufficient/reliant as possible, to analyze information available to them and use critcal thinking to make the best possible decisions, and to give back to their community/help someone in need.
Whether a child is a typical student, student challenged with an intellectual disability, a student with an emotional disorder, a student on the autism spectrum, etc. they can achieve these things, with time and aid. I look at these shows as metaphors for living. I grew up watching them. My love for them is soul-deep.
I also thank you for acknowledging that there is a major difference amongst people who don't like Discovery: "Force Diversity" vs. everything else.
As you so eloquently stated, we all can have our own opinions. We can be vocal or mute about our reactions (especially considering we PAY for this service.) We need to look at why we like or dislike something; a do the same for those we interact with. I feel that you "hit the nail on the head" when you said that the REASON for the dislike is very illuminating of that person's character (or lack of it)
I agree with you that it's very important that we don't lump everyone who doesn't like Discovery in the prejudice/racist/idiot pile. It's short-sighted and takes away the voice of real, valid concerns and disappointments.
Again, this was a wonderful episode showing the commonality and strengths of all the shows. I truly enjoyed the message. Thank you
6:30 You know that Vulcan hand sign all you Trekkies throw up at conventions? Jewish.
Justin Madsen really?
Yes. The way my paster uncle explained it, is that at the end of some Jewish ceremonies, the rabi stand with arms out in a V shape, hands raised to about head level and each hand in the shape of what most people now recognize a the Vulcan salute, except the hand is parallel to the arm.
There’s an interview somewhere with Leonard Nimoy where he explains how he came up with the Vulcan salute, and he explicitly states he got it from seeing a rabbi doing it in a synagogue when he was a boy.
Not the rabbi. It's the Kohanim that make the handsign and give the blessing.
It is a blessing. In use, one is not supposed to look. He looked; he was 4 years old.
As a young kid in the 90’s watching Star Trek, I noticed the diversity and enjoyed it
Because Star Trek has and always will be about diversity. You have a galactic Federation founded on multiculturalism from different species. So when they actually have diversity, in lead positions and commanding positions no less, fans have a problem? You don't get Star Trek if you have a problem with that. All you care about is the pew pew, and not the social commentary Star Trek is trying to convey.
As a young kid in the 60s watching Star Trek, I noticed the diversity and loved the hell out of it. :-)
@@juscallmeehx"All you care about is the pew pew" I can't think of a better way to describe the divide. Haha. Love it.
Everytime someone says DSC is too SJW and hate white men, I just point them to DS9.
The show's lead was a black man (Sisko) who became space Jesus and the prominent white male human character was a blue collar worker that was in a interracial marriage and was made to suffer nearly every season because O'brien must suffer!
Scifi stories is often the perfect place for allegory and DS9's Benny Russell episodes were far more political than anything in the first season of Discovery.
edit: made my comment before you got to the recap for "Far beyond the Stars"...nice to see you included it in the video as well:P
Oh, and Dax was (possibly) bisexual. Remember when her ex-wife came aboard the station and both wanted to get back together (they'd been husband and wife in a previous life), but Trill rules said "NOPE! You'll both be exiled for that, and your symbiotes will die for good because of it!"
Sisko told Dax that he had her back if it came to it.
Reality Rejection Service Dax among a few others throughout TNG DS9 and VGR were the closest we got to out gay characters for so long. One real failing of those shows given their general purpose, a casually gay couple in 2017 shouldn’t have been any sort of new controversial thing.
*Two* episodes featuring Captain James Tiberius Kirk? Have my secret atheist prayers been answered? This is wonderful!
I got in on the ground floor so to speak, watching the first year of the series during my Senior year in high school. From the first episode to the last, as the episodes were originally broadcast, Kirk was wonderful! Sure, he was a scene hog and an overactor, but compared to what had come before, and being reined in somewhat by the script and the other actors, he was fun and deep enough for 17-year-old me.
I remember that most of the previous space fiction shows were incredibly nationalistic, jingoistic, whites-only and extremely light on rationalizations for their futuristic tech. They also relied on the cheesiest possible special effects and had poor continuity. I loved them, but Star Trek TOS was a fucking revelation! When I heard "Space: the Final Frontier" and saw the stars streaming by, and a brand new kind of spaceship zooming past, my heart soared along with the Enterprise! I'm sure that later Treks were good, maybe better than TOS in important ways. I don't think of them as against nature or any of that 'get off my lawn!' stuff. But Star Trek TOS has my heart forever.
"let that be your last battlefield " was the first episode of trek I can ever remember seeing. Even at six years old I understood the message of the show, and I've loved it ever since.
I hated Discovery. I mean Christ it was like a SJW fantasy- A *counsellor* on the bridge next to the captain, men in *skirts* A *blind* engineer, a *Klingon* outsider often conflicting with his culture... OH WAIT THAT WASN'T DISCOVERY
TOS was an SJW fantasy! Doctors on the bridge...first interracial kiss, the bridge is a "forced rainbow coallition" of different ethnic types. Come on people! What was with all that PC stuff!
@@NitpickingNerd Not sure how those two things are not compatible. They werent collecting artifacts for profit.
and don't get me started on the "captain" of DS9 who wasn't even a Captain. And all that humanitarianism? towards an Alien planet? using Star Fleet's precious resources on a group of non-humans?
Build that Space Wall, Build that Space Wall, Build that Space Wall!!! (smh, what ignorant BS)
Yes, Star Trek has always been about inclusion and equity. If people don't like that, then they shouldn't watch it.
And for the record I've been SJW for decades and it's one of the reasons I love ST.
Love your video love it love it. I have been watching Star Trek since I can remember and I'm 50 now I too remember what was going on with next-gen came out. I was 19. I also remember people bitching about Deep Space Nine having a black Captain I also remember people griping about the fact that Tim Russ was playing a Black Vulcan they completely overlooked the saying that there was a Black Vulcan Elder and Star Trek the motion picture. I never had a problem with original Star Trek being Kirk Spock and McCoy as the big three I never had a problem with having Picard and Riker and Data all three white men being the main characters loved it so why do you have a problem with Burnham Philippa georgiou Captain Lorca who last time I checked was a white man. I remember a great scene where Jordy was missing and Riker and Worf we're looking for it and they said we're looking for our friend he's a human and that's all they said I thought that was one of those beautiful scenes.
He was collecting ancient artifacts because he appreciates history, he wasn't trying to make a profit from them
As it comes to dealing with the issues of what was the current day, "A Private Little War" was transparently alluding to the Vietnam War, and damned little in 1968 was more controversial in the US than that. If you want to get even MORE blatant, in the third-season episode, "Day of the Dove," Kirk comes right out and says it while narrating his Captain's Log: "Stop the War NOW!"
Preachy in a different vector, perhaps, but still preachy.
Have these people that are complaining ever watched ST?? Honestly?? No other show has such heavy handed 'inclusion' than Trek and that is not a bad thing... How can inclusion be a bad thing? Am I missing something here? I love that ST is so inclusive, it shows us that we can live as one and that we are, above all else, all of us, human.
Great work as usual Steve.
You won yourself a subscriber. Every point I reflexively yelled at the paused screen after the initial question was asked was covered in this video as if by telepathy. And you're also pretty damn entertaining to watch. Well done.
I'm late in seeing this video, but I want to offer a heartfelt thank you for making it. Every point you made is 100% correct. I wish more people had not just the intelligence, but the humility and compassion to apply these lessons in their lives. The world would be a far better place if they did.
Great video. It's funny because I absolutely despise Discovery as a show and still find myself as one of it's most ardent supporters in the face of such nonsense.
Exactly. The problem isn't "SJWism," it's that the show isn't as good as it should be.
@@TheFranchiseCA What amazes me is that people can’t tell that those are independent things. If all the cast were white men but the script was identical, that wouldn’t magically make it good. Therefore, diversity could not have caused it to be bad.
Ah shit, you go and drop the albino from DS9. Nice deep cut sir.
i been screaming this for months. i fucking hate how 'hate' is now in vogue
Jake Klingons have been portrayed as not always honor bound all through the franchise, Hell, until TNG their honor culture wasn’t really a think and Klingons were often shown to be treacherous conniving plotting and other words not particularly in line with the concept of honor.
The only way imo to resolve these apparent contradictions is to accept that Klingons must be very diverse indeed.
The Albino, presuming he was a Klingon like he appeared to be, was also a crime boss. It's not surprising that a Klingon *criminal* might not behave according to the usual Klingon code of honor.
True that budget could be the explanation for the whole episode, but the similarities are hard to ignore and ds9 had many great different species and their choice to make the albino so similar to Klingon doesn't seem to be an accident. I like to think that the albino made Kang an offer he could refuse.
Capt. Picard's closing speech at Simon Tarses hearing in episode Drumhead, is something that should be introduced into school curriculum and shown to children in school. It is so strong and powerful message that you can not pretend that you did not hear that message.
You are my hero. I've been saying this since discovery's inception. I'm so glad you are using your platform to remind people the real message of Star Trek.
Sweet honey barbecue, I think I love you! My wife and I are noobs. We started with TNG, we're almost through with the 6th season. When I was a little boy, I casually watched the occasional episode with my dad. My wife informed me she did the same with hers. So we decided to start watching it. We live in a very small, extremely conservative rural community in the Ozarks. We're blue, in a sea of red. An interracial couple with a lesbian daughter, swimming against the current. Trek inspires us, and gives us hope for a brighter future, that we may never see, but hope for our children and theirs. I've recently discovered your content, and it has become a most excellent companion to Trek, for myself. I watched your video welcoming back Picard last night, and your take and tone brought me nearly to tears. The announcement of the show last year did. You're wonderful. This is wonderful. Thank you.
Far Beyond the Stars is probably in my top five favorite episodes from all of Trek. A brilliant episode
" forced " " diversity " is literally what sparked my interest in the entire franchise in the first place lmaooo and i can say the same about many other trek fans i know too!
Oddly, I would say that while Discovery has done a great job presenting a wonderfully diverse Trek universe and presented some morally complex complications , they haven't done a real proper-preachy Trek episode yet. Granted it's the first season, but man I can't wait until we get a big Measure of a Man, Drumhead, Outcast, Far Beyond the Stars, Remember episode from them. So I guess my Discovery review would be, "Discovery: Not SJW enough!"
I think the season finale as well as the end of the Mirror universe arc qualifies. Pretty on the nose there. IMHO.
Jeremy Ewing I also am waiting for that standard trek episode. The war arc was fine enough, and we got some fun semi standalone episodes that were reminiscent of classic trek in terms of setting or adventure (the episode where a member of the landing party gets effected by something and has some aspect of his nature blown out of proportion was all OG trek!)
We got a bit of preaching about what it means to be starfleet and what they will and won’t stoop to, but the whole conclusion just didn’t work that well for me. A real klunker you might say🤭. So another classic trek trope done!
David MacDowell Blue Eh, the mirror verse run was more of a contrast than moralizing. The episodes didn’t really have a statement to make.
The finale was klunky imo, really felt like the season was cut short so they had to wrap up the plot at 15 episodes instead of 20+.
We need some bad preachy episodes, too. Give us an Omega Glory or a Symbiosis, Discovery!
Discovery: Not SJW enough!
Agreed! Outside of the cast I see none of Star Trek's former preachy-ness in STD. Look we have a woman captain and first officer...and we killed off the cool captain before the 2nd episode was over.
Look we have a woman POC security officer...that we killed off unceremoniously.
Hooray a same sex couple in Star Trek and interracial to boot! We're a bit behind the progressive curve but we made it...and killed off half the couple for the sake of drama.
Oh look a character with rape and trauma for backstory. A chance to talk about the affects of PTSD and make social commentary on the attitudes towards those who experience sexual assault especially because it's the rarer case of female on male violence. Never mind let's chuck all that in the trash for yet another plot twist.
Where's the progressiveness and forced diversity again? Because I'm not seeing it.
I wish there were more voices like yours on youtube.
absolutely
Great Rod Sterling impersonation, now it makes me feel like you secretly have a "Twilight Actually" channel hidden somewhere
Something that always bothered me about "The Measure of a Man": wouldn't they have had the whole "is Data a person conversation" BEFORE he was admitted to Starfleet Academy and commissioned as an officer? How was he a Lt. Commander before they were like "whoops, I guess we never settled the personhood question, boy, is HR mad"?
3:57, an American using the term "Tory" is endearing. I'm from Ontario, and that is commonplace.
Nice Job Steve. Still, the Tories are kinda cut-throat.
Ty for pointing that out, i'll admit I missed the significance of an American using that term (moniker). Although I'd describe the British version of our current Tory party in more colourful language ;)
it's fun fun world when "cut-throat" sounds "soft". :)
Damnit though. I love Steve Shives reviews, but this video is extremely well written in all the nuances.
Succinct. Funny. Cutting, and elegantly presented.
I like to ask people who think Discovery is horrible what they thought of the first season of TNG myself. Discovery has issues, sure, but I think it was one of the best first seasons of Trek to date.
Of course, I might be biased because Discovery has Tilly, and Tilly is well on her way to becoming my favourite Trek character to date.
The first season was not only uneven, but had the MOST racist episode of any Trek ever! "Code of Honor."
I was just getting into enjoying it, albeit slowly, when that shockingly horrific episode aired. I don't know how it got approved. And frankly, I don't want to know.
Also, that other episode about letting the exploited drug addicts SUFFER when they didn't have to was a page out of Reagan's playbook. Someone was there, obviously, who didn't share Genes views, nor mine nor millions of Star Trek lovers. I am pretty certain I know who it was, and that he was very soon voted off the Island.
Well, you're a guy; my all-time favorite character is Data, followed by Spock.
None of this, though, approaches the ineptitude of Discovery. Imho. For me, it's that the show is very poorly constructed from the cinema lighting to the sometimes very wooden acting to the absurd continuity errors that stick out like KLINGON FUNERALS!!!??? WTF?
I remember seeing it when it first aired and thinking "this is pretty racist".
Tilly is a goddamn boss. That said, I'd probably have to say that Miles O'brien is my favourite character. "Hard Time" is easily one of the best Star Trek episodes ever written, and that's very much because of Colm Meaney.
That was very well-researched, articulated and overall captivating. I love your content.
It's astonishing that even people as dense as the critics you mention can't see their own bigotry.
How absurd is it to argue that two women in a show absolutely chock full of men is somehow "too much diversity"?
That one Onion article which satirized similar complaints about the newest Bond film seems more relevant than ever…
Star Trek: Staying Woke Since 1966
The way Roddenberry talks about how taking joy in diversity is the main theme makes me think of the borg as the polar opposite of that, with their goal of assimilating all life to be them.
I hope this video hits one million views, this is your best Trek essay by far, I've been sharing it with all of my friends and Trek-loving family members. Great job.
Thank you! I'm glad you liked it.
I always took it for granted that The Albino was absolutely a Klingon. I guess it was never definitively stated as such.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations!
liked this vid enough to share it to my face book...with this caption/title;
"Before you just roll your eyes, and dismiss it, because it's 'Star Trek'...give it a listen
this is surprisingly deep, and thought provoking.
Well thought out, and intelligently presented.
And 100% dead on."
Isn't it funny that the same people that deny the issues with racism, sexism, etc. are the same people who complain about diversity.
For people in that group, it's a very comforting illusion to believe that the best way to truly and finally solve social injustice is to ignore the issues faced by people who are non-white, non-straight, non-cis, and non-male. Means they don't have to do anything.
@@Dorian_sapiens It is a more nuanced issue than that. There are also those, for who racism and sexism is so unthinkable and unnatural that they are less sensible. Things that others would consider racist/sexist they don't see the same. You do not solve social-injustice by ignoring the issues. But the issues are only then solved, when people do not think in such a way anymore and it is no issue for them. Many of the younger generations were raised in the belief that all humans are equal. And since they believe that, racist and sexist jokes for example are funny, because they are ludicrous and untrue. SJW often face problems, when they ignore the fact that the world is indeed getting better and nuanced. Some of them frame the group that has nothing to do with racism and sexism as racists and sexists out of stupid reasons and misinterpretation. Because they make very strong and radical statements they also attack those, who decided not to act racist/sexist and who aren't openly fighting.
The complaint about diversity is also more nuanced. There are those, who hate it because they are intolerant bigots. And then there are those who are afraid of counter-racism and counter-sexism, that is sadly a thing now and very apparent in the days of the internet. I don't remember anymore, how often I had to read that I have to be a racist or sexist just because I am a white male, knowing that this is a very wrong statement being just as racist and sexist as they claim me to be.
Not every action, that could be considered racist/sexist, is proof or evidence for it. Racism and sexism is a belief. A belief that has to be eradicated. And when it finally is, some actions considered racist/sexist now, would suddenly be perceived very differently. Casting only white males doesn't have to be racist/sexist. There could be another reason for it. And we need to understand, that the action doesn't directly equal belief. We are in an age of transition. There are racists, SJWs and post-racists. We need to be aware of that, especially SJW need to be aware or they will drive the post-racists directly into the arm of the racists.
They first deny being racist, then complain about diversity because deep in their hard they know they are racist. That is why they feel they have to preempt criticism on that.
@@JoniWan77 Very nicely put!
Thank you Steve for these great episodes. They are very very cool!
I found this video 5 years after it was made, far too late, the first thing I can say about it is: THANK YOU.
I've lost count how many times I've had this argument ever since Discovery started airing. It's somewhat funny to see you taking the viewer down pretty much the same logic, down to referencing most of the same episodes as I do ("Measure of a Man" and "Far Beyond the Stars" always come up, for example) whenever I have this discussion. If you ever have to again, here's some extra:
- ST:TOS S03E10 "Plato's Stepchildren" - one (not THE, but close enough) of the first depictions ever black-on-white kiss on TV, additional trivia: Shatner and Nichols had to outright force the producers to use a take where they kiss by deliberately ruining everything else.
- ST:TNG S05E17 "The Outcast" - comes off as hopelessly tone-deaf and somewhat clunky in it's execution in 2023, as if the writers never met a gay/trans person, but the point still stands: it's a blatantly obvious intended-to-be-gay-comes-off-as-trans-today ally sentiment.
- ST:DS9 S07E15 "Badda-bing, badda-bang" - see Sisko's tirade about what his problem is with Vic's supposedly authentic 1962 Vegas recreation that, in his opinion, artificially rewrites history to be politically correct, or better yet on DS9 (other than "Far Beyond The Stars")....
- ST:DS9 S01E19 "In The Hands Of The Prophets" - warning against religious dogma and it's detrimental effects when allowed into politics, delivered with all the subtlety of an anvil dropped on your head - on that note, basically any episode that has Vedek/Kai Winn in it will have a suitably un-subtle message about politics, religion or both.
- ST:ENT S03E12 "Chosen Realm" - my complaint with this episode is not that it's preachy (it obviously is, it's Star Trek), it's that it's pretty much the exact same story as "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", with the exact same message delivered with the exact same subtlety. Or if you need a new type of message, from the same show: S02E14 "Stigma" - at original airing it had an AIDS PSA right after it, just to hammer home what the story was about, in case someone slept through the episode and missed the incredibly obvious awareness aesop (although it's handling of it's issue is about as tone-deaf as "The Outcast" is about it's own).
I'm fairly sure that both of us could sit here all day listing examples. I, for one, have a lot of problems with Discovery (Plot Armors to the point of ridiculousness even by Star Trek standards in my opinion, incoherent plots, some contradictions against the established canon), it being diverse and representative of a lot of races/cultures in relation to it's time is *not* one of them, because I completely agree: anyone who complains about "Star Trek *having become* political" clearly hasn't been paying attention.
Bless. Finding this video and your channel is hands down the best outcome of YT's algorithm noticing my binge of Star Trek ship videos.
I fell down a DEEP rabbit hole of those people recently. Thanks.
Steve, you need a weekly, featured segment on 60 Minutes. Always intelligent and insightful! Keep up the great work!
I think I just broke my touchpad smashing that like button. And I blame you sir! That was excellent!
At a time when women were meant to be trophies, Dorothy was not only a writer for the series, but the script editor. Gene could be sexist, but Trek was wonderfully modern in its day.
Just discovered your channel. Love all of your Trek content, but this episode rises higher. It reminded me why I'll always be a Trek fan, and always be proud of that fact.
At last some one that understands what the world is going through! Good pod cast, two thumbs up.
Mr. Shives, you are totally correct. I have been a Star Trek fan since I had been 11 years old, and back then, I had not seen any problems with the cast of Star Trek. As an adult, I have to thank Star Trek for its messages of cultural diversity. I would like to think that as a Canadian, I am "colour-blind." People should be judged for their character, not what they have between their legs, who they love, the origins of a person, and the tone of their skin or their culture. All humans have red blood.
The message of Star Trek is one that all humans should listen too.
this is one of the best video postings ever, well done
The first exposure to Trek was the 2009 reboot for me. It got me into Discovery and eventually TNG and all the other great shows. Despite the first contact (pun intended) to the Kelvin timeline, I cannot describe how much I love TNG. It‘s timeless, especially because it has philosophy, literature, and moral themes to it. I think some people just shut down their open mindset at some point. I can still enjoy Discovery. Might not be the best Trek, but it‘s pretty good still. Especially the first novel which serves as a prequel. Has some strong Trek vibes going on. Love your channel, keep up the good work. Live long and prosper🖖
As you previously addressed in your most recent Stuffy video this is a problem that isn't exclusive to Star Trek. It's also prevalent in franchises like Star Wars and Doctor Who, two franchises I have always been very passionate about. Those series don't wear their politics on their sleeves quite as explicitly as Star Trek does but they are undoubtedly there and always have been. And yet people still lob the same complaints at them.
And don't forget the people who are very angry at the Hugo Awards, which apparently are evil for allowing convention attendees to vote for novels written by women, and especially women of colour, to win best novel recently as well as in many other categories.
For me with doctor who I don't have a problem with the political stuff I just think it shouldn't get in the way of writing good stories and good characters.
agreed.
It should have been a sequel, with the original cast from the original movies being retired and teaching a new generation in Ghost Busting, they could even be their daughters or students.
YES YES YES! Love this video! I've gotten into this with people on line since STD came out. Personally, I hate STD. It think it's cheap storytelling and has bastardized Trek. However, my gripe with it has nothing to do with the diversity featured in it. I love the diversity of it! SJW is a fairly new term and it's one that the prejudice out there love to slap on the creative minds behind STD. Truth is, Gene Roddenberry was an SJW long before that term was coined and featured diversity is at the very core of all things Trek! I just saw the DS9 documentary What We Left Behind on Sunday and one aspect Ira Steven Behr touched on was that they didn't do enough with topics of sexual identity. I will be linking this video for folks whom I get into it online. lol Thank you for this Steve. Bravo!
He didn't. They have a segment in the doc where they literally check off various social topics like Homeless and PTSD, etc. They initially give themselves an X but then change it to a ? A fair assessment for a show well before it's time. They comment on the Dax "lesbian" kiss being about love and not gender. And also blatantly talk about how they should've had Garak come out to Bashir after "The Wire" and then... Who knows?
the most RELEVANT and ELOQUENT video i have ever saw about ST (or any other series really)! KUDOS!!!
Im really lookin forward to see all of your playlist!!! AMAZING!!!
Keep up your incredible work!
(im sorry if misspelled something, english is not my native language)
Thank you! Such a breath of fresh air. Why is this stuff not obvious to everybody?
Great video! Thank you!
Aw Steve I love your videos so much!
Well said, Steve. I remember watching one of your videos awhile ago and you specifically said that you liked your Star Trek "preachy". I've always agreed with that sentiment and I rarely hear others express it. That made me happy, but this whole video made my day. Thank you, friend.
As a 61 years old, Queer, Black Woman Born Trans, System's Analyst, Nerd and lifelong Trekkie from the first episode, I thank you.
Thank you for this video. 💙
So well put 💚
Thank you!!!
As a fairly early millennial whose childhood was primarily in the 90's, the young version of me mostly experienced Star Trek by watching TNG episodes before school on weekdays, and the occasional TV marathon of the original series movies. I also have one or two memories of watching the original series in black and white (?) on British satellite TV.
Unlike my brother and a few of my friends, I never really got into the series that followed TNG. I had a preference for the more action-packed space fantasy of Star Wars. But with Discovery on its way and looking pretty exciting, I eventually sat down (with my brother) and started watching the original Star Trek. Frankly, it's a fascinating experience to have this window into the vision a group of people had of the future back in the 60's. It's especially interesting to see things like Kirk trying to explain the importance of respecting women as equals without really having the modern vocabulary to do it efficiently. You can see him grasping for the right words, but in his failure still managing to convey the right ideas. (But then there's freaky shit like Uhura's mind-wipe and re-education that I don't think ever gets mentioned again? Yikes! The episode never really made it clear that her original memories and personality would be recovered.)
Anyway, I kinda put TOS on hold once Discovery premiered, but I'm gonna try to finish it well before season 2 comes around. I loved Discovery, and I'm looking forward to moving on from TOS to (finally) properly watching the rest of TNG and the series that followed.
thanx steve..... you rock
Great video. Great message. I just discovered your channel a day or two ago and I am really loving it. I've focused mostly on the Trek stuff, but I'm lookimg forward to hearing your views on other topics. Very nicely presented and with a good tone that respects but refutes the opposing view. Well done. Keep it up.
Thank you for your honesty.
Im glad I found you. I got sucked into The Quartering and that rabbit hole, but pulled myself out and realized some hard truths man.
Thoughtfully argued and (bafflingly) needed to be said! Well done, Steve!
Don't forget the first season DS9 episode "Captive Pursuit". Where the alien with a gun and a haughty accent leans across Sisko's desk and says "come now my good man, doesn't your culture have an equivalent?". The irony is so thick I thought I was drinking my tap water for a second. Then OBrien all but says "all right then, I'll go to hell" when he tosses his badge down. I kind of like that one.
It has really shocked me to see Right-Wing Star Trek fans complain about the show being too concerned with Social Justice!? Trek has always been concerned with Social Justice and they are clueless to how significant and groundbreaking the cast of the original crew really was! Yes as you said Steve, in the Original Series we had a Black Woman on the bridge during Civil Rights, A Russian on the bridge during the Cold War, a Japanese man on the Bridge 20 years after WWII where Japan attacked us. Can you imagine the outcry of a Muslim on the bridge 20 years after 9/11? Spock was simply a representation of any human that is different than "us." Yes, Star Trek has always pushed the boundaries toward diversity and showed a future where the prejudices of humanity would be replaced by an acceptance and embracing of our diversity.
Liam Foley It saddens me that a lot of people forget we’re all people.
Darque Queen yeah, me too. I also wonder how this miss the obvious message?
Right wing star trek fans? What's that?
@@yafes_han Idiots with no sense of awareness and think that science fiction should only be about space laser fights and that the only form of diversity allowed are hot fuckable female aliens.
No other genders, just female.
Not to mention the 1968 episode Plato's Stepchildren where Kirk and Uhura lock lips? Even though it is contested as the "first" interracial kiss on US television, it was still a big deal.
Damn right, thank you for making this video
I love that quote from Douglas Adams.
Great video!
"Thurston Howell III in a local theater production of Gilligan’s Island"
That description is hilariously dead on LMAO
Thank you Steve, very cool.
Star Trek has long been famous for its obsessive fans, but I think it might be an even better demonstration of how people can become completely obsessed with the minutiae of something without understanding it at all.
Really good video dude 👌 keep it up
I would love to see an episode on Jeffery Combs. The unsung hero of Star Trek!
RE: "Forged in Fire". I'm IN that book. Kind of. My wife made a charity donation to get me name dropped as a secondary character. This is known as a "Tuckerization".
Thanks for the consistently quality output!
That was a pretty good Rod Sterling impression
Just came across your channel yesterday and have been checking out a bunch of your great videos. This one seems to be the most important one I've seen so far and it's one I intend on saving and sharing with people who comment on social media something about Star Trek suddenly "shoving down our throats." Are these people actual Star Trek fans?
love that rod serling impression!
I love the analysis, but I have to disagree with your conclusions, Steve. I don't think that critics of Discovery--those who focus on casting choices and representation--are blind to Star Trek's social messages. I think that they have learned to tolerate them. When Kirk was dealing with the half-and-half people, the captain was still white. When Picard fought for Data, the captain was still white. And the racism that Benny Russell confronted seemed like it was our past condition rather than our present (although I would argue that it is becoming more relevant with time). Critics can then squint and still enjoy the series in spite of the social message. They can enjoy Star Trek as pure entertainment from their perspective. When it is a matter of who is in the lead, either the head of the show or the person portrayed as being in authority, then their critiques are attacks on the power of art to make a political message.
I think that a large segment of society has trained itself to portray tolerance on the outside, so long as what they see doesn't cross certain theshholds. Inside, they withhold respect and acceptance. And in the current climate, they seem more willing to say that anything goes as long as it does not upend white male authority, politically or culturally. Discovery does that, and they feel compelled to attack the series for going outside what they see as the legitimate domain of entertainment.
Good points!
I'm not sure this is actually true or if I am just noticing it more and spending more time thinking about it. But it also seems like there are just a lot more, loud & whiny complainers and haters.
ST Discovery is certainly a new kind of ST! There are MANY changes on so many different levels. Some are fairly minor, some are pretty huge. I love it, I have been very entertained and delighted. Quite frankly, there have been a number of criticisms and complaints that actually baffle me; so much so that it almost seems as though they must be watching a different show than me! Of course, there are many complaints that I do at least understand, they just don't bother me―or I actually LOVE those aspects of the show.
My own personal way of dealing with series/episodes I don't care for: simple… I don't watch them! It works very well for me. I feel like it's a shame that others are not satisfied by such a solution because bitching and complaining doesn't have a very successful track record for influencing the writers & producers. Plus it just incites unproductive conflict and divisiveness.
Fantastic presentation. Subscribed.
Since Day 1 Gene ALWAYS intended the show to address social issues of the day and hiding it behind warp drives and phasers.
WHY CAN'T I LIKE THIS MORE THAN ONCE?
"there are lessons in that thar nebula". - Capt. Janeway
You really nailed it here. I can't say that I have liked all the Trek series, but one thing I have enjoyed about them all, going back to the original series, was Roddenberry's idyllic vision of a future in which diversity was simply accepted as normal. And, as you note, that vision has permeated all subsequent series.
Amen! Wonderful video.
Also, just awesome work overall in this channel. Props to you 👍👍👍👍
Now that tripping hazard of a transporter pad is something worth complaining about!
great piece. well said sir.
I can never get your podcast. On the website I get "we're sorry, this content cannot be displayed please try again later".
If I tap the itunes link, the podcasts app says I can't connect even though everything else about the app is working fine.
I don't see your podcast when I search for it.
Aaaaaand subscribed
Fantastic
Thank you for voicing this. Personally, I had several issues with Discovery, but most of them had to do with what I felt was inconsistent tone or character development or lore nitpicks. I've never understood this whole "SJW's are ruining EVERYTHING!" argument. Not just in regard to Star Trek, but really in regard to almost anything.
Another fantastic video 👍
I share your love of Deep Space Nine. Your portraits of individual characters is great material. I would suggest taking on the ultimate 2nd in command Damar, his evolution into the leader of the Cardassians is a train wreck that can be seen years ahead of time. His ultimate fate invading his own headquarters to free Cardassia is ironic and noble at the same time. Keep up the good work I'll be seeing you on the internet. Thanks.
PS I think your blog is far better than the anti-trekker which I have watched a lot.