Is Damar Actually Star Trek's Good Nazi?
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- Опубліковано 17 гру 2019
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Deep Space Nein.
I did nazi that coming.
👏😔 to you both~
LOL wut
to woogha and jp BRAVO!, BRAVO! EXCELLENT PUNNERY!!!!!
...I see what you did there! :-P
At the time I hated that they "reduced" Dukat to a mustache-twirling villain but later I realized that they were just reminding me that Dukat is a horrible person who is directly responsible for unspeakable atrocities and we all kinda forgot because he's so damn charming.
"I CaN't BElieViE tHEy MaDE tHe nAzI * EVIL * !!!"
- Definitely not a Nazi
That's a charming narcissist for you.
You're not alone. When Dukat's long dead Bajoran lover and Ziyal came into picture, I had to reassess my thinking of Dukat as their relationship put into doubt that he was ever the monster that Bajor believed him to be.
No sooner did I see in the later episodes that I was wrong. My brother couldn't have put it better. Ziyal's mother and Dukat weren't "lovers".
She wasjust Dukat's one of many comfort woman that just so happened to have gotten pregnant.
He was alaways evil, he dud what he did for his own ego, he wanted to be recognized as a great leader and worshipped. It was never "for Cardassia" it was more about "where my statue at?"
Blame Marc Alaimo.
Damar hands down with the best quote of the series "Why don't you talk with Worf again?"
William Bewlay ohhhhh “snap”. 😂
No "Well helooooo?"
@@lennierofthethirdfaneofchu7286 No. "Pick that up."
Damar: "Next time you should have killed me Klingon, there is only 1 Damar"
Worf: "Noted"
I love how Casey Biggs sells that line - amused at Weyon's death, borderline happy with Worf, with a touch of the self-hate Damar had at the time for his role in the Dominion government of Cardassia
:) hahahahaa, Yep
The only thing I might point out about Damar's sense of morality that differs from IRL Nazis - IRL Nazis existed in a world where they could have known better, where the slide into atrocity was fairly quick. Damar existed in a society that was steeped in this for centuries. His whole education, familial experience, everything, reinforced the idea that what they were doing was right. That kind of deep indoctrinal framing is a crazy thing, and while I don't know if it makes Damar redeemable, it's a huge contributing factor that I think is worth considering.
So more like North Koreans.
@@kvoltti Cardassians are space North Koreans. This is not a bad idea. When you look at how weak the militaristic Cardassians are in comparison to the other galactic powers, they are closer to North Korea.
I had the same thought after the Garak video. It's unclear exactly how long Cardassia has been a totalitarian military/quasi-military government, but it seems pretty clear that Cardassian _culture_ has reinforced the importance of the state and/or Cardassian-ness over nearly if not entirely all else for a very long time. Centuries it seems.
Even Garak and Damar, in switching sides and becoming good guys, still believe this. They are working towards a stronger, better, fairer _Cardassia_ as much as anything else. It's an interesting study, if nothing else.
And, yes, the only even close comparison that I can think of is North Korea; and we'll have simply no idea how that will play out until it does. We simply _cannot._ Our minds, not so wholly steeped in that constant indoctrination since, literally, birth, can't even understand or conceive of just what that would do to a mind. Even the handful of real-life North Korean defectors have only given us a small glimpse into how that will/could work. So too, I see it, with Cardassia and Cardassians.
Not really.
The nazis first got loads of influence by about 1/3 of the voters way before they started killing people, then they started losing influence the next election.
Then the coup came.
Everything after that was based on fear and control, except for the young ones who where HIGHLY indoctrinated in Hitler-Jugend, they knew no other truth.
Sure, the higher echelons wheren't indoctrinated from young days, but very many (almost all of the soldiers) where.
@@andtalath I don't think that holds up though. Even with the Hitler Youth's indoctrination, that still only the first generation born into it. Their parents remember a time before.
With Cardassia, Damar and Garak were indoctrinated since birth. As were their parents. As were their grandparents, and their great-grandparents, and their great-great-grandparents, etc. There is simply no one and likely no written record from a time before such since-brith indoctrination of "the State" and "Cadassia." Even with North Korea, it's only roughly comparable, they've only been in that situation for three generations or so. They are definitely the closest parallel, but still an incomplete one.
"...He can fight for a new Cardassia, but he can't be allowed to live in it..." That's good stuff.
I think it may be more apt to say that he would never feel comfortable living in it. A significant mark of Damar's redemption is his own recognition of his past guilt. Had he lived to see the new Cardassia, even if others would hail him as a hero, Damar knew that he did not belong in the peaceful Cardassia he helped to create.
I feel like part of Damar knew that, especially after killing his comrade who tried to kill kira who also held on to a dead Cardissia. He definately wouldn't have been blind to that after being that perceptive previously on the issue.
Kind of like Moses never being able to see or live in Israel after dedicating his life or doing so much to free his people. Yes, I just compared Damar to Moses 😎.
@@user-vc7ps6tk8i I mean... if you want to argue that Moses did kinda commit horrible atrocities against the Egyptian people up to and including genocide, in pursuit of his divinely mandated goal... Can we? Can we argue that? I have no fucking idea honestly.
His redemption is his legacy. But I think you nailed it that he could never enjoy the results of that redemption because he was too complicit in the evil of the Cardassians during the occupation.
I disagree. This video is lumping the crimes Dukat committed while he overseen the Bojorin occupation with a guy who was serving on a cargo ship a decade later. We have no indication Damar had any involvement in the occupation at all. All we seen was him verbally support what he was indoctrinated to believe, when he was put in a position to see things how they actually were he had a change of heart.
@@Bitchslapper316 if he was a cardassian military officer during the occupation he has an accountability when it comes to the atrocities committed whether he was the head Nazi or just one of many Nazis. He's not being lumped into dukats atrocities, all of cardassia is complicit in dukat's atrocities including Damar. That's kind of the thing about Nazism.
@@Bitchslapper316 this is somewhat how I feel about Damar too. I had him always pictured as a young, new conscript, post-occupation. I have always seen him as sort of a Cardassian Harry Kim, at least at first; his first (or maybe second) assignment is to serve under Dukat on a cargo ship. Dukat then gets a Klingon warbird and Damar rises up the ranks (so to speak, given the situation of Cadassia at the time) quickly because Dukat's ship is under-staffed and unsupported. Now, he was certainly pro-occupation and anti-Bajoran, at the beginning at least, but that was the usual indoctrination / brainwashing of a fascist state. We do not have any indication that he was serving in the military during the occupation and, given his early naivité, I always assumed he was a young new conscript. This doesn't mean he wouldn't have committed atrocities or aided in such atrocities -- we will never know -- just that, from my reading, he was never in a position to make that decision.
Damar did like to toss back some kanar, didn't he? That classic moment when he's drunk off his ass and meets Weyoun 8 and they discuss the Federation prisoners' fate:
"Maybe you should talk to Worf, again."
Cracks me up, every time
Hairmetallurgist 😂😂😂😂 that was one of the best Damar scenes ever 😂 i legit had to stop the episode to laugh
It's a great scene immediately after Weyoon was killed, and Damar, instead of killing a rebelling prisoner... Laughs his ass off and mocks Weyoon, and leaves Worf and Dax be.
I saw in an interview the actor who plays damar hated drinking what they used for kanar as it was like a think syrup.
@@-pancakes7205 i guess that makes sense XD it does look alot like cough syrup... i mean it would have been fine as long as it was like sweet or had some kind of taste.. put it probably didn't so i can imagine that it would be off putting
@@Kameth yes exactly.. i literally laughed with Damar in that moment
Damar's turn from hapless Gul Dukat lackey to leader of the Cardassian resistance is such an amazing character arc. It was so unexpected, but it flowed so naturally from the story and made perfect sense with everything that came before. Phenomenal writing in every respect.
He was a good cardassian (which mostly meant a bad person from an outside perspective) whose loyalty Dukat never deserved. He was guilty of many of Dukat's crimes but he ultimately display remorse, or at least understanding, of his crimes.
I adore how Deep Space Nine took side characters like Rom, Nog, Damar, Eddington and gave them character development to the extent that they are as memorable as the main cast.
DS9 had a great writing team who took feedback from the actors performances and where always trying to improve what they had. They avoided the trap of padding with technobabble most of the time, and used the time instead to have character moments.
Damar was also too Shakespearean to live. From his position as the True Believer who leads to the downfall of Dukat, or his ascension through the ranks attached to Dukat from his lowest point, he was always destined to have an equally dramatic end.
Regardless of what Damar did or didn't do, his speech on Cardassian TV basically telling the founders to stuff it was so awesome.
For your Odo piece: René Auberjonois had some really good banter in some of the conventions that are on UA-cam. Two things that stuck out in my mind were his description of DS9 "...to boldly stay in one place and discover something about ourselves." (I just found that to be pretty spot-on (no pun intended.)). Also, he talked about how he taught masked acting later in his career. He said the key lesson in that class was that the mask actually serves as a lens. Since it takes away some of the facial expressions and in doing so it magnifies everything else the actor does: voice inflections, body language, etc. He described it as a powerful tool that he would have to be careful with because it magnifies so much. I'm not sure if you can use any of that, but I thought I would share.
The challenge I see here is that Damar was born into and grew up in a society where servitude and loyalty to their fascist regime were seen as positive traits. He didn't *choose* to be a Nazi, so much as he was trained from a young age that this was society told him this was the morally right thing to do.
I'm not pro-Nazi by any means, but as I get older, I understand that one's environment may encourage good people to act in less than the best ways. I know my environment growing up made me a less than ideal person (nothing too terrible,) and that being said, I have a bit more sympathy for people who grew up culturally brainwashed by what they were "taught" was right.
Nazi Germany also had forced conscription for some time, they forced boys and girls to join Hitlerjugend. During the occupation of Norway, all children had to join the Norwegian Hitlerjugend as well. Not complying to it meant you or your family could get killed or suffer other consequences. My grandmother lived through the occupation of Norway, she got lucky because she was too young to join them. So many soldiers didn't chose to be nazis, their government chose for them. Just like Damar, he didn't chose to be born a Cardassian and indoctrinated since birth.
We can say Kira is morally better, but if the shoe where on the other foot she might have killed Ziyal too if she felt she had betrayed the resistance. Remember she tells Damar and the other Cardassians that either they are with you or against you, and if she had felt that Ziyal was turning against her she would have done it too. No one really dare to talk about this, because Kira is idolised, but she's still very grey in many areas.
History is always written by the victors and their crimes are often overlooked, Churchill did plenty of them in WW2 but still he's honed as a hero. Sisko poisoned a planet and had a Romulan senator killed, we accept it because hey they were the good guys so it doesn't matter that much. Starfleet is also imperialistic and colonising in their own way, where the Cardassians use brutal force the UFP use more sneaky tactics with diplomacy. Colonialism is colonialism no matter if you take territory by force, or you take it by convincing others that this is the right way because we're so good and nice.
Didn’t Garak kill that Romulan senator without Sisko’s permission?
I just always loved how Drunk!Damar laughed at Weyoun getting killed by Worf, and the subsequent dialog...
"I see you're enjoying the death of my predecessor."
"Nonsense! I miss him dearly..."
"Have the prisoners revealed anything?"
"No... Perhaps you should try talking to Worf again! XD"
I always laugh exactly like that when I hear it again
The question is: Is Damar actually Star Trek's good Nazi?
The only good Nazi is a dead one.
Damar is dead
Therefore, Damar is a good Nazi, but many other Cardassians are too.
Dude, spoilers!
Gonna start calling photon torpedoes "Redemption Arcs"
THIS...this is peak YT commenting!
Being a dead nazi is a necessary condition for being a good nazi, but not a sufficient one. You have affirmed the consequent.
@@eorzeantours1565 Lieutenant, load the redemption arcs. Full spread, maximum yield.
Semi-related:
I like how the Klingons have such a narrow view of opposing factions that when Cardassia gets a democratic government after the fall of the OO, they're like "wait. That's a nazi planet. They can't possibly be a democracy now. Must be a Dominion plot."
Like obviously the invasion itself was a Dominion plot but the fact that so many Klingons fell for it...
Good point. But I'd argue that based on the OO's much respected reputation as an intelligence agency, the Klingons would have a decent argument. What are the odds that "simple civilians " could overthrow such a ruthless organization?
I honestly felt bad for Damar, watching him slowly drink himself to death and struggle between what's cardassian and what is right. The poetic justice here is loud, and it took it's toll on cardassia. But I also don't feel bad for him at the same time, if that makes sense. His loyalty to Dukat and cardassia ultimately screwed his entire race. As usual, once Dukat got involved, everything went to shit.
"Leave me alone. I'm descending into madness!" -- I'm going to start using this in my daily life. Thanks.
ME: What! A three parter on Cardassians! From the best series in Star Trek, surely people are going to find this boring and switc...
GARAK: "OH BUT I DON'T THINK THEY WILL!" If you will allow your sense of entertainment to indulged, you will see that these videos were NOT done in vain...
Steve, I've said this before: I live for your Star Trek dialogue paraphrasing.
What I love about DS9 is that it is so steeped in the complexities of the Cardassians. Their exaggerated quality is is bureaucracy, which allows those that know the full scope of atrocities committed during the occupation to point fingers at each other. This is a big contrast with the true believers. As a fictional race, they both show us the complexities of assigning guilt, and that we are ALL responsible when OUR society fails to live up to the ideals we profess. I don't think Damar is really redeemed, except by what he teaches the audience about our shared responsibility for our state.
My favorite Damar moment is in the episode Strange Bedfellows (directed by René Auberjonois), when he tells Weyoun, “Maybe you should talk to Worf again!”
I honestly think Damar would have been a fine leader in the end. Don't get me wrong: He committed terrible acts, knowingly enjoyed the fruits of his labor while seeing the suffering of his fellow citizens...all of that. But, he grows and changes throughout the show. By the end, who Damar IS as a person is so wholly different from where he began, you can argue that the new Damar was sickened by what he had done with his life. He would have spent the remainder of his life being contrite and working to change what he knew needed to change.
If I can mix franchises momentarily, I have to side with Stannis: "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." There is no redemption for irreversible acts of harm (you can redeem a lie or a theft etc insofar as you can actually undo the damage caused by it), but that doesn't mean you can't do good after doing harm. Moreover, good acts only have moral dimension insofar as they are executed for their own ends (because they are good), not because one seeks redemption or some separate reward. Damar does a lot of good, and a lot of bad. There is no calculus in which to cancel them out and find a remainder, just the truth of both actions. Anyone who asks "then why should I do good now if I can't make up for past mistakes" continues to have no grasp whatever of what "doing good" is, they understand only the amoral transaction, and they hope such transactions can carry a balance of morality on their behalf.
This is what I was thinking, in better words. I think there is some implications on each other, though, potentially. To continue thr video's Nazi line of reasoning, consider, a hypothetical low level Nazi member or army soldier stationed at but not with any degree of authority over any other troops, at one of the camps.
They did awful things, but only at great cost could they have fought the system and survived themselves. They are complicit in torture, and murder of hundreds, thousands or hundreds of thousands. Then after the war they spent the rest of their life doing as much charity as possible, and helped maybe as many as they hurt. If they were then charged at the war tribunal, I don't think that would aquit them.
But equally, in my own opponion which I must give truthfully hasn't been directly affected by the worst of thr atrocities, would also make it not morally reasonable to issue a death sentence either.
If Damar survived, I would say he would still deserve life in prison, in a society that won't tolerate the acts of the previous Cardassian Union, but not the worst prison.
To expand upon this, and continue mixing all these franchises together, this all reminds me of this scene from Stargate: ua-cam.com/video/HTzuxhOh80M/v-deo.html
@@KaiCalimatinus One needs to always remember that none of us is ever a god-like judge who can deal absolute justice without being part of the world.
A nazi guard can deserve death for their part, but if we would simply kill all of them, we would need to build death camps ourselves, and then kill ourselves for accomplicity to that.
Thats the defining line between good and evil. Good seeks to reduce the suffering in the world, by teaching. Most nazis learned their lesson. There is no NEED for further violence, and truth to be told, we do not have the right to take another persons life, unless they are about to take someone elses.
Evil believes that vengeance for past deeds is justified.
The individual may have changed, but it is our right to take his life nonetheless. Right for life can be lost by ones deeds, and cannot be re-earned. Bajorans have lost the right to live through acts of terror, so we are blameless for death camps. Only killing those with right to live is murder, and by taking arms against us, that right is forfeit. So we cannot be an evil empire, as we simply defend ourselves.
Also, by showing mercy you only show we will tolerate acts of terror, and you will be accomplice to further violence. By sowing counter-terror in the hearts of our enemies, we will prevent them from their criminal activities.
Two systems, one which is self-inclusive, and one that is based on ways to separate oneself from that inclusion.
That is what I think is the true crime: not simply breaking a law, but breaking the rule that which all laws are based on.
@@ribbitgoesthedoglastnamehe4681 killing someone for a reason is moralistically different from killing someone for no reason, though. Execution is not murder, in that sense. So the consequence to one should not necessarily follow the consequence to the other. You're treating two distinct things as the same. I personally think execution has an important place in the only purpose justice ought to serve - protection. Its finality is often looked upon as a disadvantage, but it can equally be an advantage. Because what are we doing punishing someone, at all, in any way? If the answer is "feeling better" then that's a bad answer. The only good answer is: stopping them or others from doing similar acts additional times. Preventing what was done wrong from happening again, whether by the fear of example and/or by the cutoff of possibility.
I would not see an executioner as someone needing to moralistically pay for a crime. So long as the execution is justified. I would see that executioner as a public servant taking on psychological devastation in order to protect others. A soldier. The execution being justified is obviously, the enormous sticking point of disagreement. However in the most direct example I can think of, if you fail to contain a mass murderer (even if via lifetime incarceration - which is itself a form of execution since you are taking away the entirety of someone's life) have you not then executed a bunch of innocent people instead of executing one guilty one? Practically speaking, you have.
I think these thoughts err on the side of pacifism a bit much oftentimes. Which seems like the safe side to err on, since the victims are distant and classified as "not our decision's fault". But aren't they? I think they are; if it happens due then it happens, and if it wouldn't have happened had that decision been made differently then yes that decision was the cause. I think the difficult balance must be struck somewhere, it cannot just be thrown to the whims of perpetrators. That's a head-in-the-sand approach.
I think executioners CAN become monsters themselves. If the methods of execution are too distant, too couched in niceness, too sanitized or blessed... too "appealing". That's the wrong way to go. It SHOULD haunt who's doing it. If it doesn't, then it's being done wrong, and/or by the wrong person for the job. They want to know, see and feel what they did - what they needed to do. The current methods seen - electric chair, lethal injection - are far less humane in order to outwardly LOOK "cleaner". That's disgusting. Firing squad would be my choice. You know what you did. The law knows what it deemed necessary - the public can plainly know what that is. Because if you only replace one monster with another, then you have not solved a problem, and you would have indeed killed for no reason, and the moral consequence would once again apply.
Those are my thoughts on that aspect of things, anyway. It's a sorrowful topic with a lot of nuance to it.
I really do not like that quote but I do like your take on it. My issue with the quote itself is that it really DOES make it seem like someone who does heinous things must be rewarded for being a “good” person in many matters. The quote alone does not indicate whether someone has good motives or not. And so many people use this to excuse abusers-“we’re all good and bad, you lied to this person and also apologized, so you’re no better than someone who is a serial abuser who founded a charity. People are complicated, you know?”
As far as the rest of the comment, I DO agree lol.
I like to consider it Garak’s final revenge on Dukat that he got to be the one who killed the last Weyoun.
Your Darth Vader tangent makes me realise how much I would like it if you made a Star Wars video essay series, think about it
I think if he made a limited series on it. There are already a bunch of SW channels devoted to it.
Does anyone else miss when Steve used to say "and that concludes my presentation"?
Only when he doesn't end with such a nice punch line.
Hey man, just found this channel a few days ago (as I started DS9 for the first time) and I gotta say, I'm loving it. You're informative, candid, funny, and not overly dramatic or overly affected in your readings/analysis of these things. Keep it up dude, having a great time with your content!
Hopefully you finished it before watching this as this had massive spoilers.
@@blueray15 Already knew about most of this stuff from watching a bunch of different Trek series' with my dad when I was growing up, not too worried about spoilers tbh. Appreciate the concern though!
I don't think Damar has to die in order to reach redemption, this just doesn't follow. Him dying does nothing for an assessment of his moral character. He had been putting his life on the line up to that point, the fact that he finally lost it does not change that he had always been making that sacrifice. I don't agree with "the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi"; Hitler is dead and he's still awful. No, the only good Nazi is a former Nazi turned anti-Nazi, exactly as Damar was. The man's moral worth is not the sum of all his actions, it's the character of the man he was at the moment of assessment; in this case, we're assessing Damar's character at the end of the series, and that character was undoubtedly good. The idea that his good actions need to balance or outweigh his evil actions in order for him to be a good person, just doesn't make sense. As long as he accepts that his support of the old regime was wrong, recognizes the evil he was complicit in as evil, his moral character has changed. The fact that he then risked his life and turned a whole world on its head in order to set things right, is only additional testament to the degree to which his moral character has changed. His death does nothing to supplement that, because he had been willingly risking death all along, just to do what he now thought was right. That's not just a good [ex-]Nazi, that's a good person. A better person than the vast majority of us.
I wouldn’t say Damar is a better person than the “vast majority of us”. He spent most of his life supporting the brutal Cardassian regime. Yes, he changed his mind about supporting the Dominion, but that was because he realized that they weren’t going to help HIS people, Cardassians, and actually posed a huge threat to them. I agree that they’re conditioned from a young age, but he was an adult capable of thinking for himself, and he still chose to support the Bajoran occupation. And it isn’t like he didn’t know what was really going on - he was there. He’s one of my favorite characters in DS9, but deciding not to support the space fascists and work against them doesn’t make him a hero or a saint. He’s still working “for Cardassia”. For a better Cardassia, yes, and maybe to try and make up for what he’s done, but it can’t erase his past.
When people say the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi, they don’t mean dying turns you good. It’s more that they mean you can’t ever do enough to make up for it.
A more interesting ending might be a surviving Damar going,
You know, I think I could be the right leader for the new Cardassia.
And Garak going,
No, bad idea.
And the question being left unresolved.
@@rainbow_doglover8301 yes damar is a better person then the vast majority of us, you likely included. It is a common belief by people that had they grown up in nazi germany they would have been fought against it and be all noble and shit but experiments like the millgram experiment shows it doesnt take much for humans to follow evil orders and even rationalise it. Damar grew up in conditions that were worst then either nazi germany or north korean in terms of conditioning and still eventually overcome it to fight for a better non totalitarian future.
@@rainbow_doglover8301 reminds me of when they asked that soldier of 3 armies what he thought about all those people he killed: “i don’t know, i’ve only ever killed communists”. Totalitarians are scary whether left or right.
The Cardassians in DS9 showed me the line between Patriotism and Nationalism, long before I ever learned the meaning of the words.
"I may reach the mountaintop, but I fear I shall never visit the valley below"
Had Damar survived the war he would've become a living legend among cardassians and a potentially vital figure in the post war scenario. Taking him to a war crimes tribunal would have been problematic to say the least regardless of the moral merits of it.
Had damar survived we would of really known if he was redeemed
It was only on Deep Space Nine where a character like Damar can go through such an evolution as he did.
"Yeah Damar. What kind of people give those orders?"
I love Damar as a character. He is deep and interesting while not getting the same amount of screen time as Dukat and Garruk
Redemption needs to be presented as possible, or else people will never think they could do it. The world benefits more from people who have done evil things thinking they can be redeemed than it does from people thinking "it's impossible, so why should I bother?" and continuing to do evil.
If there is one Cardassian who could be said to have been truly redeemed, it would be Aamin Marritza, from the season one episode Duet. Yes, he's killed by the end of the episode, but his death is a tragedy after his redemption, not a part of the redemption itself.
My favourite Damar moment is him just laughing when Worf snaps Weyoun's neck.
I think it's interesting to contemplate facts not in direct evidence when thinking about Damar. Thinking about what comes next for Cardassia, and what was happening on Cardassia in Damar's name right before and after his death. The writers were making it pretty clear Damar was more valuable as a symbol more than an actual effective leader. So in that sense his death was not only important but essential. The story of Damar plays out a lot like the story of Li Nalas earlier in the series. The legend is going to matter much more than the man himself, especially if Garak is on Cardassia and realizes he himself may not be the best in terms of a visible leader.
"Deep Space Nine features three major recurring Cardassian characters"
three and a half if you count Ziyal!
I remember being pretty upset when they killed Damar just before his rebellion succeeds. It left the Cardassians without a moral leader and the future of Cardassia ambiguous. Now that I'm older I appreciate the ambiguity but I'm still not sure that the writers' intent was that Damar had to die because he could not be redeemed. If anything it seems to me they painted Damar pretty innocently--he is young and naive and a low-ranking officer when he is introduced. I don't think the show ever made it clear whether he was in the military during the Occupation. And once he becomes "leader" he is basically a puppet of Weyoun's, and a guilt-ridden drunk. So while I don't disagree with your ideas about what makes a "good nazi", I don't think the idea was to "redeem" Damar so much as show the evolution of a younger generation of Cardassian who slowly wakes up to the reality of the society he grew up with (and this is also a theme with Worf and Bashir, who during the Dominion War are also forced to reckon with the sins of their nation-states).
Damar is the Claus von Stauffenberg of the Cardassian Empire or Adm Canaris, at least.
Just so.
One thing I felt your analysis was missing: the timing of Damar's first strike. When the Breen fleet was first deployed against the Starfleet Alliance and pushed them back out of Cardassian space, Damar had not yet turned his coat. The scale of their defeat in the Chintoka system, the effective mothballing of the Federation and Romulan forces, and Gowron's subsequent squandering of their only surviving military assets (the Klingon fleet is outnumbered 20 to 1 BEFORE Gowron starts running suicide ops to discredit Martok) could have very easily meant the complete collapse of the Allies and a Dominion Victory within a span of weeks at most. Damar has the opportunity to call his rebellion off, and it would certainly be a justifiable decision. Rusot even subtly nudges him toward that decision. Instead, Damar strikes at the moment where he has the LEAST to gain, and in doing so arguably saves the quadrant single-handedly.
It may not change your conclusion overall, but I do feel like its a critical detail when breaking Damar down. Nobody can claim his ultimate call to fight the Dominion was opportunistic given the circumstances of the moment of truth.
I would be VERY interested in an addendum to this trilogy of videos where you shares your thoughts on Legate Ghemor. Not only do we see his hands were not clean during the Occupation in Ties of Blood and Water, but more generally it would be hard to argue a powerful and wealthy man like him did not profit from Cardassian Fascism in a more general way throughout his life, even though he used that position and wealth to the benefit of the dissident movement and hated the occupation. Eamon Maritza, the metaphorical Concentration Camp Guard, would also be useful to examine.
It's possible Damar might - MIGHT have truly redeemed himself if he lived, if his actions as part of that new world were to show him worthy of it. Imagine a Damar that dedicated the remainder of his life trying to forge a better Cardassia, and reperations for the Bajorians. Imagine a Damar that actually brokers true peace and cooperation between them. It's not death that redeems a former Nazi, it's a dedication of their life to undo that damage and ensure such things don't repeat. He might not be able to wipe the debt clean, but he can show the person that was a Nazi is no longer the person he is.
Mixing shows here a bit, but yep, that happens with Teal'c in Stargate: SG-1. He's the leader of his god's army, turns from them, and spends the rest of his life freeing his people from slavery and ensuring their freedom, including help build a democratic government (and saving the galaxy several times). He sums it up perfectly:
"You will never forgive yourself. Accept it. You hurt others, many others, that cannot be undone. You will never find personal retribution, but your life does not have to end. That which is right, just and true can still prevail. If you do not fight for what you believe in all may be lost for everyone else. But do not fight for yourself, fight for others, others that may be saved through your effort. That is the least you can do."
That would be his direction had he lived. In reality, Cardassia is depicted as too weak to wage war anymore after the series anyway. I had an idea that Cardassia would be dependent on the Federation after this war and would eventually fall under Federation influence leading to its eventual incorporation into the Federation (I also think the Klingon Empire is moving in that direction as well).
My gut reaction when I first saw the title was ‘No’ because the first good Nazi that popped in my head was Oskar Schindler. Damar is clearly not on that level, but you make an interesting case. Damar’s redemption obviously takes place on a much broader scale than Schindler, and he’s also fictional, so I suppose I could jump on the good Nazi bandwagon. Can’t wait for your Odo post next week! It’s much appreciate for all of us grieving DS9 fans.
I met Casey..along with Marc Alimo and Jeffery Combs here in the UK after the show ended. A really charming and friendly guy.
Damar is my 2nd favorite character in DS9 (after Weyoun) but my favorite aspect of his character is his struggle with alcoholism, with which I can definitely relate
One of the few bones I'll throw Damar as far as his heel-face turn, is that there were some reasonable motivators and interesting capsulations:
Reading the reports from the Dominion's HQ, he saw his people being positioned in the most at-risk locations;
A shift so that Cardassians on the front lines more often than the clone baby, cannon fodder Jem'hadarr
The reduction in Cardassian authority within its own domain, made even worse by the first two factors.
Toss on top of all that, his heel-face turn is a moment of clarity from an alcoholic who numbed the horrors of war at the bottom of a bottle. I always wondered if Damar's loyalty to Cardassia was always reinforced this way; it's hard to tell since we get so little of his pre-adjutant-to-Dukat life. We can assume he did SOMETHING to get stuck on freighter duty; Dukat's placement there was an insulting penalty for his actions, surely the same may be true for much of his crew.
I agree with you, and I'd also add that Damar's visible descent into alcoholism, hitting rock bottom in both his drunkenness and his role as a figurehead leader, and turning simultaneously both things around from there adds an essential metaphoric weight to his heel-face turn. When he rejects kanar that becomes a shorthand representation for his potential for his character being redeemed in general.
Hi Steve, I just wanted to mention and I guess say thank you for your various Star Trek videos! I don't often see eye to eye with some of your stances and viewpoints, but overall you always come across to me as a genuinely decent person with a genuine and heartfelt passion that you want to share with others! And really, isn't that what Star Trek is all about? Not always seeing eye to eye, but always recognizing or at least trying to recognize the value of each individual and their experiences.
Here’s the thing, ppl like to think of character like a ledger. You do good, you do harm, & u do some neutral stuff. If the good outweighs the bad, you’re a good person.
But that’s more of a sum of their actions judgement rather than a measure of their state at any given moment.
It’s more like Revan from Star Wars, we are who we choose to be at any given moment. Once we choose to be good and do good things we are good regardless of our past misdeeds and how far along we get in seeking redemption.
Redemption isn’t about balancing a ledger, it’s about an internal experience immeasurable by outside forces.
That is part of why other justice systems focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, to aid in that internal processing that lowers recidivism. I’m not saying that no punishment should ever be considered, just that this does not reflect reality.
The reality is that some very awful disgusting people can become very good people if their biggest problems are a product of upbringing and/or environment rather than some kind of homicidal sociopathy. & they don’t have to balance out a ledger by being good for one year for each murder, they simply must change who they are inside and out such that they don’t wish to harm others. Not that those internal changes are simple.
Damar was born with bad circumstantial moral luck.
Odo was reborn into the same society as damar, and he acted as judge and jury in the service of the space Nazis to fulfil his personal desire for justice
I just noticed the "USS Actually NCC-1980" registry in the corner of the screen during your patreon shoutouts. Is this a new thing you've added or am I just unobservant? Also, what class of ship is The Actually?
I'd like to see you do a video about Tora Ziyal. There's so much to analyze about her feelings on both her Cardassian and Bajoran heritage, as well as her relationship with Dukat and how that conflicts with her friendships with the DS9 crew.
Redemption isn't about balance. It's about becoming a better person. It's not that he died (though it helps), but rather the willingness to die for that redemption. It's not about making up for what you did (because you never can for atrocities). But, and here's the rub: If we argue for anyone that no change is redemptive, why be better?
I can call someone on the path to redemption and NOT say they can be forgiven. But in the end, we cannot know what is in anyone's heart but by their actions. I do know that if we hold that someone raised to be evil cannot be redeemed by CHOOSING good, then we as a species have little-to-no actual hope
"He was a victim of his time! In this house Gul Damar is a hero!" -Tonon Soprar
I love your videos so much. They are truly a treat. Just realized I should comment more to show some love/engagement 😉
A real-life parallel that comes to mind is Admiral Wilhelm Canaris. He bought into the Nazi line wholeheartedly at the start - he appreciated the strong state-centered authoritarianism (sound familiar?) and plans to free the military from the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. He became head of the Abwehr, the military intelligence service, in 1935 and was very effective in that role (including planning several undercover operations to steal military secrets in the U.S.)- until 1939, when Germany invaded Poland. Canaris personally visited the front and saw Warsaw in flames, along with witnessing other atrocities committed by the SS and receiving reports of similar atrocities from his agents all over Poland. He went to Hitler directly to register his objection to what was going on, only to be told that Hitler had planned it. After that, he became a double agent, feeding intelligence to the Allies and sabotaging operations until he was caught and imprisoned in 1944, and eventually executed in April 1945. He also used his position to give a lot of Jews and other persons at risk of persecution documents necessary to get out of mainland Europe.
The contrast between the seriousness of the events and the music is hilarious.
The problem with punishment and crimes as a subject is two wrongs don't make a right. usually the people going around getting Justice are doing things just as awful or worse...
Dude! You seriously stuck the landing on this one! Love the ending.
I don't agree with Steve's final conclusion that "His [Damar] past sins are so egregious that while he can fight for a new
Cardassia, he can't be allowed to live in it". Regardless of past sins and mistakes, nobody is truly irredeemable. Thinking people are irredeemable is what leads to the toxic notion of cancel culture - the concept of entirely judging someone's present based upon their past. People are not perfect. We all grow and change. We all have that capacity...even the worst of us.
One of the most important lessons from DS9 is that there is a ton of grey in morality. People are _not_ entirely good or entirely evil. Even with Sisco and Dukat despite storytelling narratives structured to present a protagonist and a heavy. Even they have qualities of both traditional good and traditional evil. It's what makes them believable. It's why we care about these characters decades after the show's conclusion.
Damar is a complicated man. He's done terrible things, obviously. He's believed things that end up being fundamentally untrue. Damar dying a martyr for his people was the easy way out. It would have been very difficult for him to adapt to the post-war Cardassia and begin to atone for his sins. That's why I again politely disagree with Steve here.
I wanted to post a comment along these lines, but yours is worded so much better that I will just say, "Seconded!" to this
Wow.
God I love DS9 so much.
This was easily the best commentary on DS9 that I’ve ever seen!!
More please!!
I was thinking more along the lines of the British Empire, than the Third Reich. I think Cardassia occupied Bajor around 50 years or so. Frankly. Nazi Germany didn't have enough time to fully exploit its conquests (1938-1945) Where as the British Empire had centuries to exploit some of its conquests. Which many of it's former possessions are still feeling the repercussions of British occupation (Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India) for example. Even slavery in the United States got it's roots from British colonialism. But okay. Let's just call them Nazis.
Or the Second German empire, after Prussia unified Germany. If you google Prussian virtues and read the list so many fit the Cardassian narrative. It also fit with how I think senior possessions work on Cardassia, with the higher society class holding higher positions within the government and military, Dukat is from a rich family I think while Damar isn't. Damar would never have made it past Glinn, if it hadn't been for the war. Cardassia might not have a monarchy, but they fit so much more into the Second empire than the third. The British also had labour camps way before Nazi Germany was even a thing, they put women and children into camps during the second Boer war to stop the men from fighting them. I think this oh Cardassians are nazis is way too simple, because they fit with so many others. The former Yugoslavia under Tito is also one of them, a lot of the things that happened on Bajor also fit in with stuff that happened in the Balkan wars.
Your singing just put me in belly laughs! Thank you! Sing often!
Remember what General Ursus said: “the only good human is a dead human”, similar application of phrase ;)
Casey Biggs knocked it out of the park with his performance
Thank you. This is the first time I have understood the 'His Cardassia's dead' line.
Damar and Dukat... two characters that went through the exact same experience... and reacted differently
The Garak video was the first Steve Shives video I ever saw. Since then, I look forward to Trek, Actually every single month. Thanks for another awesome video, Mr. Shives! DS9 is the best Star Trek series, with some of the best characters and storylines in all of science fiction.
I beg to differ this isn't the end of the series. It actually should be a quadrilogy because Tora Ziyal (although not full blooded Cardassian) was a catalyst for the change in Gul Dukat and indirect affect of Gul Damar by losing his mentor and making him leader of Cardassia. Also, her effect on Garak and Major Kira. Tora Ziyal also her death effected the Alpha Quadrant by causing a change in leadership in Cardassia eventually causing Gul Damar to turn on the Dominion. Plus, the show hints that she showed signs of being a great artist so we don't know what her affect would have been on Cardassia, Bajor, or even the Federation. Even though she isn't a secondary character and is a supporting character and hadn't shown up in the series much. But her development should be a discussion of a video because of her sheer impact on major characters like Major Kira, Garak, Gul Dukat, & Legate Damar and effect on the war by turning on her father and her death.
She was a great character. She lost her mother, grew up in a prison camp and was nearly murdered by her father when he found her. Yet she is still a beautiful person, full of hope and love. It's so tragic when Damar kills her. 😥
I had to think about this a bit. In a comic series for a different franchise, two villains went through a similar transformation. I forget what happened to the big one, but villain #2 ended up ruling his people and he, for the greater good, sacrificed himself twice. first one he admitted his crimes publicly which lost him the election, but the candidate who would best serve his home would go on win it. And secondly, after his home world was destroyed by a greater evil, he aided in stopping it, to save what was left of his people, by willingly sacrificing his life for the mission - which did not go unnoticed and surprised many (because he is self serving usually). he briefly speaks to someone of his former foes, who he got along with, as a ghost just to say he would be satisfied if he wasn't forgotten.
Brava, Sir! Also, can't wait for the Odo/Rene A. video/tribute. Keep up the great work! #LLAP
I come to absolutely love your commentary on Star Trek.
Thank you!
Gotta give it a like just for that last sentence. I love his Star Trek videos, I'm new but have been watching all of them the past 2 weeks.
I remember initially hating Damar and by the end really liked him, that's the charisma he had by the end.
Yo, what about Ziyal? Like, you said every major cardassian character, but I think Ziyal is major enough to deserve a bit more of a focus. Like even maybe exploring the circumstances of her very birth, which you've talked about before, but I think she's a relatively significant character in regards to the relationships she has with some of the more important characters, like how both her introduction and death drastically affect both Kira and Dukat. Dope video tho, I always especially enjoy your DS9 content.
I kept waiting for that final line, thank you.
Dumar obviously has his issues as does every loyal member of the Cardassian military. But the reason we, the audience, can learn to accept him and even rout for him is that his eyes are pointed squarely at Cardassia's future. He realizes everything needs to be rethought. He can't exactly lead a rebellion against Cardassia's oppressors and still defend Cardassia's oppression of Bajoran rebels. In reality, a person shouldn't need to learn about how horrible an oppressive regime is through direct experience. They should already know. But once again DS9's writers invite us to think about these things.
Screw (I censored myself there) "These are the Voyages" gimmie 'Terra Prime" the actually good Enterprise Finale
Honestly, the only real difference I see between Damar and Garak is a matter of timing. We just happen to meet Garak further along his character arc.
I always thought the cardassisns acted more like the British empire as opposed to the nazis. A fading power, yet still strong, proud, many would say arrogant, disciplined and not shy of war.
Enterprise started out as one of my favorite series. I was really hoping it would play out like an RPG where the ship slowly got stronger and stronger over the series. They would get phasers and photon torpedos and shields, all while building the federation. I think it had a lot of potential but got cancelled way before its time.
What an essay! There was ups and downs! Comedy and drama 🎭
Thanks man!
“Leave me alone, I’m descending into madness” make me crack up!
There's a fascinating story in the idea that, decades down the line, Damar is held as a hero of the Cardassian Reform movement. He's become a kind of culture hero to the part of Cardassian society that is legitimately trying to find a better way for their culture that's still true to them. And it's often grappling with Damar's life, but part of what ALLOWS it to continue and persist is that he died before he had the chance to backslide. By giving his life in the fight to take back Cardassia, he made space for a world he could never live in.
Patterns of Force... the episode that shows what CAN go wrong when the Prime Directive is violated unnecessarily. For all the flak I give to Picard and Janeway regarding their worship of the Prime Directive, Patterns Of Force is one of those examples of why the Directive is still necessary as a general rule. Should it be violated if doing so is the only way to save lives? Yes. Should it be violated when there's absolutely no need to do so? NO, and that particular episode shows exactly why.
I find it quite interesting how you view redemption as relative to the sum of good one has done to repay the bad that they must redeem themselves of (in my interpretation -- could be wrong!). It has a logical basis to it, and a defining line between those redeemable in a lifetime, redeemable through some act of sacrifice, and unredeemable beyond fiction. I just find a troubling place when I apply it to everyone, as there are millions upon millions of German citizens alone who have been complacent to the Nazi power, and even if they might feel remorse, change, and desire to change the world to be better, not only must they find away to replace the blood spilt killing millions to maintain the destruction of other millions, but many will never have the capacity to either from socioeconomic level, benefit they might inherit as a society that is difficult to deny (Nazi gold in Switzerland), or simply because they became part of a country that didn't allow them the opportunity to live their own lives very free, let alone liberate others (East Germany). Personally, I take the stance that redemption doesn't equal negating the lose you've contributed to the world; I think of our virtues and errors as individual piles that don't negate each other as you make a virtue or err in your ways. Just because one stops adding to the pile of errors doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished or shamed for the mistakes of the past, but at the same time they should be permitted, nay, encouraged to aid society as much as their station and their lifespans allow, even if they can't be truly forgiven.
That is just me, however. I'm not one who's suffered from a regime like the Nazis, and though elements of my identity would put me in jeopardy if a similar group were to rise in my nation as it has yet to happen I admit my probable naivety in this position.
This is an interesting point of view. When you say, "redemption doesn't equal negating the lose you've contributed", are you only arguing the pseudo-mathematical comparison of good and bad acts to calculate, as it were, whether one is redeemed? Or are you arguing against the concept of redemption as whole, since the comparison is built into it to some extent?
@@Dorian_sapiens Redemption is inherently a mystical/religious concept. I mean, there's probably some utilitarian weirdos who actually believe in the 'pseudo-mathematical comparison' you're talking about, but they're wrong for the same reasons utilitarianism is the worst possible ethical framework. For the rest of us, redemption is consigned to that ineffable place the rest of 'the human condition' resides in.
Can't wait for the Enterprise finale episode. I am one of those who is more kindly disposed towards the series. It had a rough start, did too much time travel (always a kind of tricky plot device), played a bit too much with fan servicey callbacks to other series, took until the third season to really find its identity, and had a horrible final episode, but I still regret that once it did find itself, they cut it off before it could really get those one or two more good seasons it seemed to have it once it figured out what it was doing. (To be honest, TNG had just as long a learning curve. And while I don't know if Enterprise would have become as well liked as TNG is, it could have a better reputation had it had a season or two more to erase memories of those wonky early seasons.)
"To be honest, TNG had just as long a learning curve."
This my friend is a result of their times. At the time of TNG executives gave shows a LOT more slack, shows were given time to grow and find their feet the first few seasons of TNG are very nearly unwatchable, with extras that have almost zero acting talent and yet it was given time to get it's act together and grew into a wonderful show. Fast forward to Enterprise (and still the case today) and we've gone to "event television" where everyone wants the next Soprano's, Breaking Bad or Game of Thrones. A show has a VERY short window to catch on and if it doesn't then it is thrown out and something new put in it's place.
Not sure how the advent of streaming services will factor into this in the future but i can't imagine it getting any better.
Both great points that hadn't occurred to me before!
Wes Stacey And TNG also was one of the early entries into first run syndication so they had a lot less competition and lots of local markets looking for content. That certainly didn’t hurt.
I LOVED that closing line!
I think we need to consider that a redemption story does NOT need to balance out, the good acts wiping aways the lifetime of bad. That the arc is that a person can change at any point and to continue down the dark path is always a choice.
Damar is still a Nazi but, his 'turn to good' gives him a chance to be debated among historians versus straight condemnation; though don't expect to see any statues of him on Bajor any time soon.
Hey Steve. Thanks for the video. Also very much enjoyed your "Atheist reads..." series. Kudos for that.
What do you think about Babylon 5 TV series?
Examining the Voyager episode "Jetrel" would be a nice counter balence to this one I think.
It's effectively about Dr Oppenheimer visiting a Japanese victim of the nuclear blast.
War is hell, and it turns us all into demons.
eh i disagree. the talaxians were the victims of occupation and then nuclear blast.
the japanese in wwii were murderous imperialists who contributed to genocide, sexual slavery, torture, etc. hiroshima, a major depot for the military, was a legitimate military target that was attacked by the aggrieved party, not the aggressor.
@@elgranespejo I just rewatched the episode. Neelix said he didn't join the war because he didn't agree with the causes and believed it was unjust.
The Talaxians were the agressors.
It sounds like a much closer parallel to me.
The question he poses is still valid. No matter the reason, is it moral to use weapons of mass destruction on a civilian population and are scientists responsable for how the weapons they create are used.
"Half way through the 4th season", that's half way through the entire series too you know.
I'd never seen somebody talk about Damar in a video before, so when watching the series for the first time he was completely foreign to me. Same with Vic Fontaine. It's fun to see new stuff in a franchise this old which you'd expect to be all spoiled by now and is probably why I liked DS9 so much.
Great video, but I disagree with a lot. Most of Damar's crimes as a "Nazi" was him going along with orders, he was a second or less for most of the time, when he got into the command chair, almost immediately he started to realize that some of the things that were happening was a result of bad commanders. He never really got a chance to be the one ordering the negative stuff that Dukat did, as even when he was in charge, he was beholden to the Dominion decisions.
I honestly feel that he opened his eyes pretty quickly once he saw what was really going on. (hence the heavy drinking) He was never a guy who was supposed to be a leader, that was never his goal in life, he was content being a servant to the country he loved. His death, in my opinion, was one of the worst deaths in the Star Trek universe, previous episodes implied he was going to be the one to change Cardassia, and then to take it away and leave it to someone else, or at least not give him a massive heroic inspiring death, was a disservice to the character and his arc.
Yes he is a nazi and I'm using the defense "only following orders", but in his case it's true and was part of his upbringing/heritage. He is a good nazi because he saw the problem that is wrong with the nazi way. Sacrificing of soldiers for minor strategic gain, and the decisions of which soldiers to sacrifice because of their rank on the hierarchy viewpoint of their commanders etc. He changed fairly quickly when he saw the truth.
Good points all around. Two things I will add. 1) When SIsko is trying to open the Orb of the Prophets and he's seeing himself in a 1950s insane asylum, it's Casey Biggs who plays the evil psychiatrist. 2) Damar is responsible for some of the best acting and the funniest moment in DS9. The good part is at the end, after Worf has killed a Weyoun and a fresh new Weyoun shows up: ua-cam.com/video/acF2f3XLfCo/v-deo.html
I don't think you can treat good and evil as a balance sheet of actions. Damar did horribly evil things under fairly common circumstances, and there's nothing that says he would be substantially different under those circumstances again.
Which yeah, makes him an excellent character.
Damar is one of the reasons I LOVE DS9 the best, it can take a small, insignificant background character and give them so much more character development.
Damar is a man who is absolutely dedicated to selflessly upholding the principles of the Cardassian state. He is the man Dukat believe himself to be.
This relatively minor character had more of an arc than the whole Voyager crew combined.
He made me think of a wehrmacht officier. Following orders for the fatherland. Lawful evil at its core. The evil part could shift for his loyalty to his people though.