That Time Doctor Who Rebooted The Universe
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2021
- Remember when Moffat destroyed and reset the entire universe in the Doctor Who Series 5 finale 'The Big Bang'/'Pandorica Opens'? It's not something you're likely to forget.
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#DoctorWho #Series5 #Review - Фільми й анімація
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No. violence isn't the doctors way
@@williamhowells806 violence is peppa pigs way though
@@adamntcaponewholikesbigcoo1749 OINK!
@@madmattman5675 “knees harbo in the shin”
The drahvins
the fact that this story is one of my favorites and it's one of harbo's least favorites just proves that this fanbase is so diverse in taste, which is honestly really refreshing
Same here, I absolutely loved the finale of season 5. I enjoyed watching it and I thought it payed off everything set up pretty well, and I thought the acting was really good too
I love when the fans all have different opinions but can celebrate their own AND others' too and just come together with a mutual love for the show, really feels like a Who community and it's so interesting to see everyone's thoughts it just makes me happy too
I enjoyed it
doctor who fandom is by far the most different in opinions. I just found out Dark Waters and Death in Heaven are hated, and i always thought they were really good
I always preferred the Stolen Earth/Journey’s End two-parter more than the Utopia/Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords trilogy cause it was a lot more fun, and easier to take seriously. Also John Simm as The Master is just so unintentionally hilarious.
You can't deny the fact the Tardis is something old and new (this season's new interior) borrowed and blue. That's always worth a smile.
That was really a clever bit of writing I didn't see it coming
Doesn't even have to refer to the new interior. It's something old and ancient from a time long gone, but it's new to Amy.
Took me years to discover that was a traditional wedding thing and not just a cute little rhyme specifically about the TARDIS because it matches SO WELL
Then they never really revisit the fact that Rory has 2000 years worth of memories or life experience. But, I really enjoyed the matured dynamic in the following season when it seemed like the Doctor had a lot more respect for Rory.
I still don’t know how he died in Angels Take Manhattan 😂😩 he lived for 2000 years + to die of old age
I'm pretty sure he was turned back into a human when the universe reset, which is why the Doctor later asks him if he remembers it. But yeah, it would've been nice to have confirmation somewhere.
@@matthewries-knight4341 hmmm maybe but yeah no confirmation .. usual lazy writing from Moffat’s team
In one if the mini episodes Amy says that Rory claims to “hardly remember it” (the 2000 years) to which the Doctor replied “Ah, but sometimes you catch him just staring.”
@@NileSWPhotography doesent he literally say hes human again? like in the show...
I never liked how Moffat just sweeped almost everything RTD had done under the rug. Did they ever establish if people’s memories of past invasions were restored after the reboot?
I agree - I started with the 9th Doctor and thats how I fell in Love with Doctor Who, so when Moffat took over it just felt like he shat all over what his predecessor did. Like he thought to himself 'well, I don't really like anything that came before and I really hate all those previous companions - so I'm just gonna wipe the board clean'.
I think the only reference we get to past events(This was before the reboot) was the planets in the sky thing from Journey's End.
What Moffat did wasn't out of disrespect for Davies' work but because of necessity. How else was he supposed to keep Doctor Who true to what it was, when Davies had extended the stakes to such an extent that everyone knew everything about aliens and universal destruction?
@@adventurekitty1016 and Cyber king in Victorian London. And cyber men from doomsday.
@@atharvadeshpande6907
It could have been done so much better than literally ERASING universe and cloning it.
Wow, I can't believe we're here already at the Series 5 finale, and who can honestly say that they're surprised by Harbo's displeasure with it at this point? *However,* I completely understand why, and as always, I appreciate your provided elaboration on the specific story elements that let you down. Here's hoping Series 6 will be more to your liking, but before then, fingers crossed that the iconic Christmas Carol can thaw the frozen heart you've developed for (most of) Series 5! ⛄🎄🔔
Christmas Carol is wonderful
@@HarboWholmes Oh good, I'm so glad you like it! Guess that's our hint to the kind of review we can expect. 🥰
Series 6 is a whole lot worse
@@HarboWholmes very based
seson 6 is aweful
These Moffat episodes where my entry into the Doctor Who universe and thus they have a special heart in my place.
I much prefer the Capaldi-Moffat combination though, especially in 12's last two series.
This, they work so much better
Same here with the Capaldi thing. I re-watched New Who this year, and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Capaldi's episodes, and they easily became some of my favorites.
I stopped watching after Capaldi's first series (was sick of the convoluted nonsense of Moffatt's entire era) but I keep hearing that Moffatt calmed down/learnt to reign it in, so I think I will get round to watching them.
@@aleccino definitely watch it, series 8 is a mixed bag but the ending compensates and series 9 picks up with a phenomenal run with a few slip ups and a eh finale, series 10 is straight up on par with series 4
I honestly think the Capaldi era is much stronger.
Can’t wait for Harbo to get absolutely lambasted for his completely just critiques on this finale. We love to see it.
I wanted to say "good job for creating strawmen to defend a guy who's opinion is objectively wrong (yeah he's that far off the mark)"
Then I've read your name and I remembered you're a psycho who has the most unhinged opinions about this show so you don't deserve the time of the day.
These two have three things that I'm quite glad you didn't put on blast (that much)
1) The Pandorica Opens speech
2) "We're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one." (probably my favourite quote in the Smith era0
3) The Fez
I have that quote on my bedroom wall 😳
The fez is one of that stupid things doctor who pulls that i will never remember but everytime some one mentions it I skip giggle XD
I have many questions, but most important is this: what in the name of sanity is that item for number 3?
@@theredstonebuilder1120 It's a fez. I listed a fez now. Fezzes are cool
(I do actually have a fez lol)
@@backpackerraden6268 *looks at mum, she throws fez, I shoot fez
(Lol love the fact u have one)
I feel like the River forgetting Rory thing is to do with the fact that he was erased from time by the cracks so River would have forgotten him like Amy did
Sew for me it was always that she was faking it. The first time she sees him is in the generals tent. Where he's outside and shadowed. Next time we see them together is after she's rescued from the TARDIS. Perfectly reasonable that she's gotten used to the idea that's he's there and that he doesn't recognize her so she does what she always does, pretends not to know the companions. Something she has plenty of practice doing.
@@britlitsch6571 that's a really good explanation actually I didn't think of that
How could they build a prison for the doctor while making it painfully easy to just open it with the sonic screwdriver? Surely to god they could've just...put a wooden casing over it? Surely his enemies would've thought of that??
I have and will always maintain that Moffat is very very good at writing individual episodes, but his series-long storylines always wind up a convoluted mess.
Honestly they were all a bit messy but the worst for me was the hybrid arc bc it really was just...never actually resolved even a little
@@alim.9801 Yeah. Some fans insist it was a deliberate deconstruction of the idea of a mytharc. And maybe it was, but if so I don't think it was a *satisfying* one.
Personally I think _Heaven Sent_ was amazing and _Hell Bent_ has a lot going for it. But the tonal whiplash of putting those two episodes back-to-back is insane.
@@alim.9801 It was revealed that the hybrid was actually two people, the doctor and Clara. Had they kept traveling together throughout time and space, with the doctor trying to find a way around her death, they would've destroyed all of time and space due to the fact that she had to return to the moment of her death to prevent a paradox.
@@Amartin-mu6oj Well, that would have been great to know if Stevie boy wonder actually explained it!
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 he... he did explain it? The Doctor literally said: This has to stop. You and me, we have to stop. Look how far I went for fear of losing you! I went too far! (Referring to the breaking of Time and going to the end of the Universe).
Honestly I really do wish Moffat was more like Davies when it comes to family stuff. I'd have loved to see Amy's parents become a recurring pair of characters, like Rose's mom, or Martha's parents, or Donna's mom and granddad. Unfortunately, Moffat has no interest whatsoever in the regular lives of his companions, aside from bringing back Rory's dad two or three times (depending on how you count the deleted scene of Rory's dad meeting his similar-aged grandson via "sorry we died in the past" letter from Rory and Amy).
16:29 _"I think this two-parter poses the question 'How enjoyable can a Doctor Who story be without making any sense?'"_ Ironic that you ask this question just before the final episode of _Flux_ dropped. xD
I love Bootstrap Paradoxes, but I can understand someone getting annoyed at this episode’s overuse of them
This episode ls over use if it gave off strong "Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey" finale vibes.
9:50 (ish) My understanding is that Amy is special because she's the girl who grew up with a crack in time in her bedroom wall. She has a connection to the cracks. So when the alliance decided to base their trap on *her* memories, they got a bit more than they expected as a result, in the form of Roman Rory.
The photo of Amy and Rory does make sense. It's a plothole that the writing is absent from River's diary is gone though. Cracks in time unwrite history, but traces of that person will still remain. Letters, rings, footprints. The Doctor mentions this when Amy talks about the engagement ring and wondering if The Doctor is going to propose to someone.
Surprised you don't like the scene with the dismantled Cyberman underneath the Stonehenge. Aside from World Enough in Time, that's probably the best usage of the Cybermen's horror and persistence during the Moffat era in my opinion.
Yeah even as a generally diehard Smith Era fan, this series finale always rubbed me the wrong way for how overly bombastic and ridiculous it is without properly evaluating and addressing the consequences of such large scale events. Would be nice to not be generalized as a toxic Smith Era fanboy too though.
It takes some courage to be a Tennant fan and call others toxic for liking Smith which is the objectively better doctor but bias will always blind these people.
So, I still love this story because I'm a sucker for fairytale stuff, that's just personal taste rather than a reflection of the episodes' quality.
However, I think the problems here go beyond there being a few plot holes. The real issue is that it's actually quite a minimalist finale where Steven Moffat is very intentionally scaling the narrative scope down so he can focus exclusively on his fetish for timey-wimey stuff. It's an episode that practically screams "look how clever I am, I can paint myself into this impossible corner and wriggle out with fancy paradoxes." Which in turn means that we judge the episode on those terms.
imagine having someone love you the way rory loves amy? imagine it being mutual and just being besotted by one another, it just seems like such a beautiful idea and i know moffat wants us to think of the fairytale but sometimes it is just nice to think about
I don't know, I think there's something to be said for the agony of being the lover, and the terror of being truly loved.
I always assumed that the Doctor was the missing link in restoring the universe. Like in the Doctor Dances. The nanobots tried to restore the child but didn't have the correct DNA sequencing to do it, but once the nanobots scanned the mother, found the correct genetic code, they were then able to save the child. Same rules. The Pandorica had the building blocks needed to restore the universe, and the doctor's brain had the necessary data on what to restore. It's still a bit of a stretch, but a consistent one in the Moffat-verse.
My suspension of disbelieve in Doctor Who works fine for all of RTD's and Moffat's writing, but Chibnall somehow just doesn't do it for me.
I genuinely liked this finale, and I don't even mind the things that don't make sense. I didn't even notice them. Weird.
The biggest problem of the Chibnall era isn't the writing. It's the lack of charm
@@user-fu7zf4ck9z But is 'charm' not also a result of how something is written?
@@niek024 Yes, to an extent of course. But the art direction is also very uninspired at the moment (just look at the terrible logo for example), as well as the music and by far the worst thing is the casting choices. There is absolutely no chemistry at all and in my honest opinion Jodie was a terrible choice (regardless of the writing). Jo Martin is a much much better Doctor and is definitely more suited for the part because she actually has charisma.
Moffat actually knows how to write characters. As long as I like them, I can get around any of the illogical timey-wimey stuff. Moffat's era started as a fairy tale but became more of a character drama as it matured. Heck, even if I dislike a character like Season 8 Peter Capaldi's Valeyard, I mean Doctor, I can put up with them as long as there's another character that I like carrying the weight.
The Doctor's stuck in the Pandorica
Amy might be dead
And Rory's a roman with a gun inside his hand
Seems like things aren't going as planned.
Honestly, this used to be my favorite finale. Never thought it was perfect, just it felt so rewarding as a viewer, the way it incorporated aspects of earlier S5 episodes, and I thought it was a fun story on its own. Over the years it’s dropped down a bit in my rankings, but I still like it.
Agreed, I actually would say that these two episodes are my comfort episodes
As someone who's constantly theorizing about the plots of things, and is not very good at being right, it was beyond rewarding when the jacket thing wasn't just another continuity error Id waisted significant amounts of time building a theory around.
I still love the idea behind the Pandorica. We see time and time again, anytime the Doctor appears, disaster is always just behind him. And not only does it follow, the Doctor actively thwarts who he believes is unjust. We even see in season 6 he's become a great warrior to the people of the Gamma Forests, that was the whole reason for River. In season 9 we see how far he'll go for Clara. And we haven't even gotten close to the Valeyard and what he has in store.
It's no wonder he's become known as an unstoppable warriors. And the fact they say the warrior has no name is the cherry on top.
Ironically, he became the very thing he though the Daleks would become. Way back as the 4th Doctor, he was about to destroy the Daleks, only to hesitate and wonder if he should. One of the points he brought up was the idea of nations banding together that normally never would, to stop the Daleks.
I've been rewatching the show and my partner has been watching it with me for their first time and honestly the most surprising thing I took away was that series 5 was way weaker than I remembered it being. Felt like it took them a bit to find their proper footing but once they did they got some bangers out and a mostly more coherent series 6 which I personally love. There are still some things about series 5 that I look back on and just don't work for me logically.
Ok, the first 50 seconds got me interested, because I hated it a bit too, so let's hear if you hated it for the same reasons
SO
For all these years, I thought I was the dumb one because I didn't get the logic behind so many things in this finale and the jokes didn't make up for it in my opinion. But now hearing that even you don't see logic behind the exact same problems, I believe I wasn't so dumb after all.
I watched every single DW and Torchwood episode you made and I've learnt to trust your instinct because I usually agree with like 95%
I agree with many points HW made myself but even when I was 14 I did understand the episode pretty much in its entirity to the point I could recap it off the top of my head back when it came out along with all the parts of the rest of the season that built up to it along with theories behind it and other shite because I've always been that madly in to Doctor Who. Maybe it was just me and the way my head worked at the time that I was able to see it that way but I don't think it's quite as bad as people make it out to be but tbf I guess I did also prefer it back when I was 14 to now when I'm 25 so there is that too...
I just wanted to say you’re my favourite WhoTuber (is that a word? It is now.) in that, even when I disagree on something I can still get where you’re coming from, as well as the fact that all your essays make really interesting points.
^ what you said! 🙂
If Whotuber isn't a word it should be.
@@jayfredrickson8632 whotuber is now a word I decree it
As far as I'm concerned time travel in and of itself doesn't make sense so I don't really understand being bothered by a paradox; but I consider the vast majority of this criticism to be completely fair.
The whole point of the bootstrap Paradox is that there never was "the first time". It's a loop. The Doctor was there to give Rory the screwdriver, because the Doctor went back in time to give it to Rory. Event A happens because of event B, and event B happens because of event A.
There is no origin of the loop. It just was always there, and always will be there.
exactly
Or as Moffat himself put it, "people assume that time is a strict progression from cause to effect, but from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff."
It's unsatisfying as a solution to the Pandorica cliffhanger because it's so arbitrary. It's very possible to tell satisfying stories with the paradox, but this one is all flash and no substance.
@@AndrewHaudrew I disagree, I think it's very satisfying to see the Doctor show up, then see the moment he actually went back in time to do that. Maybe if the paradox was the resolution of the whole story I wouldn't like it, but it wasn't, flying Pandorica into the Tardis was.
It's up to personal preference.
Besides, I have a theory that the universe just keeps looping over and over. This one will die a few million billion years from now but then it'll restart again, with maybe a few minor changes.
With all respect, I disagree that the fans overusing something should affect how we judge the quality of it. Like, sure you can say that, but the actual piece of media hasn't been re-edited, and I wouldn't feel right knocking points of something that's good enough that it's been overused to death. If anything, that just shows the quality of the speech and how it's come to represent the character.
Saying that, the doctor dying fakeout is just a twist for the sake of one, so with you there lol, but I still love this two-parter. Moffat can definitely do wrong, but for this season at least, I feel like he did a pretty great job with a climactic feeling finale. Still, if you're not a fan here, I can't wait for the seasons to come.
I agree. I remember when Rolling In The Deep came out and I heard it for the first time. I loved the song, but then, as a result of the song's quality, it got overplayed, making my enjoyment of the song disappear, and I was even annoyed by it. As the years passed and people "forgot" about it, I could enjoy it again, because I had time to rest.
Even though I'm not a fan of these two episodes, saying something is bad because of how annoying the fanbase can get is unfair. That speech has been overused for a reason.
The key word there is 'should'. No something being overused *shouldn't* affect how we judge the quality of it. But we're human beings, so it does.
12:32 Just this once... EVERYBODY DIES!
Harbo is president of the 'We hate Amy' club and it shows.
Meetings every Thursday. Drinks and snacks included
@@HarboWholmes God, I can't wait until you get to Asylum of the Daleks. That has probably one of my least favourite Amy moments in the entire show, and I can't wait to see you rip it to shreds.
You know, I’m never that bothered by a bootstrap paradox. Like we don’t exactly know how time travel would work if it existed, but some theories would actually require it as a feature. In fact, I think in doctor who it’s kind of just allowed, but usually avoided by the doctor not crossing their own timeline. And is it necessarily a paradox? I don’t know, I just think it’s open for discussion. It’s also totally fine if you think it’s physically valid but narratively irritating.
The big bang episode is very flawed and I honestly agree with essentially all of Harbos critiques.
But Harbos clear resentment towards his fans is really off putting.
The chompy cyberman head scared me when I was kid. One thing I wondered was why did the Judoon and Atraxi join up with the daleks and other more villainous species? The doctor's never really feuded with the judoon before and the atraxi were apparently holding a grudge against the Doctor for chewing them out one time?
Because they saw the doctor as dangerous, hence the alliance, the group the otherwise would never have been formed
I literally just finished binge watching your season 6 reviews when you released this.x
It feels like most of what you bring up aren’t plot holes - it’s just a personal distaste for the bootstrap paradox as a component of Moffat’s perspective on how time travel works in DW. Which is completely fair! But if we accept the logic of a bootstrap paradox, most of the plot points are absolutely coherent and consistent. (Aside from the Rory picture, which, I agree, probably should have been erased). If this had just been a bunch of miscellaneous plot points strung together via the bootstrap paradox, I would also dislike this one. (IMO, that’s the issue with Flux so far as of ep 5 - a bunch of plot points that happen just to happen with minimal character development). But this episode a) brings together a bunch of foreshadowed ideas from the season in clever, not completely predictable ways, b) continues the fairy tale vibe excellently, and the bootstrap paradox actually contributes to that, and c) (most importantly) Amy, Rory, the Doctor, and River get some very strong character moments that continue to develop who they are as characters and how they’d handle a situation with this level of emotional stakes. That said, I’m a DW fan who enjoys watching for the characters over the plots. Sure, I like well-constructed stories - who doesn’t? - But if the rules get bent slightly to create a stage for the characters to develop or be interesting, I’m all for it. That may be precisely the case with this episode and why it can be divisive at times.
My personal problem with Big Bang is that I really liked the build up to and the tension at the end of the Pandorica Opens. I was really interested to see how The Doctor would get out of it. Then he bootstraps himself out of it and the whole thing is played for laughs. It felt like Moffat was mocking me for being invested.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like literally any conflict can be resolved by the Doctor bootstrapping himself out of it. I don't even find it all that creative to be honest.
@@khfanboy666 I completely agree. The bootstrap paradox resolution is clever but is emotionally unsatisfying because it feels *unearned.*
I actually really don’t mind the Bootstrap paradoxes either - what bugs me personally is seeing the Daleks team up with… Literally anybody.
i feel like they’d become extinct as a species before they accept any sort of alliance with another race, and given how they literally tried to blow up the universe once, i highly doubt they would do it to act as the heroes saving the universe from the doctor.
@@matthewbibby8921 This tends to be the case in NuWho but Daleks have worked with other races in the past. The Ogrons, for example. Also the Vagra plants from _Mission to the Unknown_ - and they conspired with local representatives to take over the universe in that one. And there's always Davros (though to be fair the Daleks kind of grandfather him in...).
@@irrevenant3 The Ogrons are actually their slaves and Davros is their creator remember. Also, Daleks use people and then kill them when they serve their usefulness.
I really only a fan of seasons 1 to 4! Yes it has it's odd episodes like love and monsters, but there is so much character building and continuity! I really like it, there is so many great episodes and characters/actors/writing! At the end of season 4 it seems like a finale of the whole show rather than just the season, it's like the doctor actually dies after saying goodbye to everyone he has met over the 4 seasons. That's my opinion anyway!
Rory is just such a stand up guy, he's too nice and in love with Amy to leave her.
The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang is my favourite Doctor Who story, so needless to say I don't agree with everything you said, but I really enjoyed your analysis nonetheless. It is a bit of a convoluted story really, but I feel that it makes sense when viewed as a surreal, pseudo-scientific fairytale, which is what most of Smith's era was. There is so much vivid and iconic imagery, and so many strong emotional beats in this story that I can't help but adore it.
I think "confident nonsense" is actually a good way to sum up a lot of Moffat's Doctor Who writing. Even when it doesn't make sense on an analytical level, Moffat writes with such passion and conviction that it _seems_ like it makes sense. His stories are like strange dreams, with emotions and images that linger in the memory. There's a childlike wonder in the way that he throws ideas at the page, like an artist flicking paint onto a canvas.
Pseudo-scientific fairytale sound Doctor Who in any era.
If you think that the RTD era is realistic, so Gallifrey should be destroy Earth in The End of Time 2.
that's actually a very valid point for the moffat era, thanks for not being toxic like a lot of moffat supremacists lol
I will agree that "The Big Bang" is not the best as a followup to the much better "Pandorica Opens." I will never fault a strong beginning for a lackluster conclusion, so episode 1 of this two parter I would rank much higher, especially since they're not even a conventional two-part story like the much worse Hungry Earth story because episode 2 is just so much different...
You know what else didn't matter? Donna's entire character arc. She just reverted back to being the exact same person she was in The Runaway Bride because Russell T Davies needed to get rid of the Doctor-Donna.
They're was on purpose tho and I'm glad it went that way, now we are gonna have a amazing 60th anniversary
Moffat era: Daleks are incapable of saying "mercy".
Also Moffat era: 19:18
To be fair they do address this by having 12 plant a tiny bit of mercy into Davros. That’s why the Dalek could say mercy to River here, so it’s no longer a plot hole at least.
The whole incapable of saying certain things thing never made the slightest bit of sense. They're intelligent beings with the ability to hold complex conversations. They can be sneaky little buggers that lie and manipulate when needed.
...but also their travel machines automatically translate things into a limited selection of pre-set phrases.
(Gif of tenth Doctor repeating the word "what")
They say mercy in a Big Finish audio, The Juggenauts.
Ooh, I've been looking forward to this one! I personally really like this two parter, with The Big Bang being my favorite of the two parts, so it was interesting to hear your take on it. I agree with you on everything you said about The Pandorica Opens. I think it's cool to see all the people from the series show up again, and the idea of the alliance is cool, if a little nonsensical. The episode gets a little too worship-y of the doctor, but that only really bugs me because Moffat would overdo it later, so it gets a pass because it hadn't gotten annoying yet and it's fitting because this is the finale. Overall, I think the episode has some good slow scenes but still keeps up a good energy that leads into the proper finale really well.
With that in mind, I find it surprising how I can agree with a good bit of what you said about The Big Bang but still really enjoy the episode. For me, it uses a few tropes I really like in effective ways. I really like stories that take place in alternate worlds, so the whole "time is dying, it just hasn't caught us yet" vibe of the episode is really effective for me. I also think it builds on the cracks erasing things from time in a good way, it builds it up in a way that suits a finale really well. I also like all the timey-wimey stuff from the first 30 minutes of the episode. I'm not sure what it is about it, but it just works for me. I think it led to a fun episode, but didn't get too complicated and was out of the way by the end of the episode, unlike what Moffat would do later where it would last multiple seasons and just confuse everyone. It's been a little while, but I also don't remember there being many plot holes, but that might just be me watching it first when I was young.
The biggest problems I have with The Big Bang are ones you mentioned towards the end. I think Amy and Rory's wedding being sidetracked to be all about the doctor is annoying. We've been building to it all season, it should be the culmination of Amy's arc this series, so focus on her. That, plus her wanting to kiss the doctor once he appears, is why I feel like Amy doesn't really develop and instead just flip flops between "great wife" and "horrible wife". I also don't like that the series leaves us with questions about the cracks. They really should have been more properly explained and, especially when viewed with hindsight, makes the end of the episode feel unsatisfactory.
I like the way the doctor makes his big speech and immediately loses though, it bookends Matt Smith's first speech when he warns the Prisoner off with a bombastic speech and it works.
I think the point of Amy's attempted kiss was to show Rory's reaction immediately afterwards, he is much firmer with her that it is *our* wedding. He has learnt from being a Roman, that was his arc. And while the season started with Amy being disbelieved, all the psychiatrists, she is finally proved right. She doesn't have the same need to make the doctor an object of desire or escape. The wedding, which is traditionally seen as an end to freedom, is actually the beginning of greater freedom as she leaves with Rory and the doctor having fixed her attachment style by recalling her parents, so it ends that arc as well.
Basically, the exploding universe had to be a retcon, there was no way they could continue the whole 'everyone knows about the aliens' thing, so the cracks symbolize that general amnesia imo without shouting 'we are having a retcon'.
Here's my problem. You said it. It's what most people say. "It's Doctor Who, it doesn't need to make sense." No truer words ever spoken about a fantastical 100000% UNREALISTIC completely enjoyable science fiction series.
So why are you trying so hard? You say the logic crumbles under the tiniest bit of scrutiny? I'd say "Welcome to Doctor Who", but you already know this world and the thin fabric of logic in almost EVERY EPISODE in its entire existence has that "flaw". So why are you looking for it?
It's like we're all watching a magic show and the magician is INCREDIBLY fun and exciting and interesting and likable but his tricks are pretty easy to figure out. The rest of us are enjoying the show and you're grumbling about how we can all see the strings and hidden compartments.
This 2 parter was ridiculous and fun and EXTREMELY well liked, mostly because we sat there and enjoyed it and didn't run up to the stage to point at the obvious mirrors used to hide the trick. THAT'S how we generally enjoy Who. If your looking for the plot holes in any given episode we're gonna be here all day.
I personally just think you're not a fan of the Ponds (and for some of your reasons I get it), and you spent a lot of your criticism mentioning how annoyed you are that they exist. It sounds like if Amy stayed dead and Rory was gone forever you would have been fine with that. I'm sorry. I know YOU would have, but 90% of Doctor Who fans would have hated it.
And I'm sorry but that matters. Because one of the things that makes Who so special is its connection to its fan base. They care about us and in turn, we care about the show. When that stops happening, when the showrunners forget about the fans (ie. Chibnal), the show stops working.
This 2 parter WAS ridiculous. We don't care. It was illogical. What the hell are you doing looking for LOGIC in WHO? YOU of ALL people know better. It was fun. It was exciting and confusing and emotional and twisting and reinventing and silly- it was everything we like about Doctor Who. In the end it brought the gang back together.
Sorry I can't help the fact that YOU happen to not like half the gang. But that didn't make the episodes bad. It wasn't the illogical discontinuities. It wasn't the characters you hate. Maybe the only thing that might make this show bad is the guy in the audience yelling loudly over all of the applause about how the trick was done.
Ps. I watch a LOT of your videos and I enjoy the heck out of them. This criticism is not meant to imply anything different. I doubt you'd read all of this but if you do, I hope you realize my criticism is coming from a place of love for your work.
I am a fan. As I know you are of Doctor Who. I know you only want the best from this show. And sometimes, we are lucky enough to get it. The trick sometimes, is not looking for the flaws. If you can enjoy the show despite them, great. If not, well there's always next episode.
Still prefer to watch these than any two episodes of season 11, 12 or 13
What's wrong with the Sarah Jane era?
As someone who has never watched classic Who I can confidently say that all old TV bad, all new TV good.
Kidding, will get around to them soon :)
(Got seasons and series mixed up)
I understand your criticisms, but I still love both of these episodes.
Don’t give up on the series u gotta trudge through & get to the Capaldi era
Of all the companions in New Who finales that went to courageous extremes, saving the world, making judgment calls on their own, and still enduring so much tragedy... ie. Martha, Donna, Rose, Clara... then there's Amy. Her biggest accomplishment is that she REMEMBERS? Just THINKS the Doctor back to life at her party? It felt like such a let down.
At least it makes Amy unique. One of Moffat's greatest strengths as a writer is that he knew how to give each companion a unique identity.
I will never stop enjoying these episodes, even though they don't make sense one bit.
Enjoyed the vid aswell Harbo :D
11:39 Wasn't it explained in Time of the Doctor?
Indeed but hey it's Harbo, his bias is now well known
TASHA: Not me. The Kovarian Chapter broke away. They travelled back along your timeline and tried to prevent you ever reaching Trenzalore.
DOCTOR: So that's who blew up my Tardis. I thought I'd left the bath running.
TASHA: They blew up your time capsule, created the very cracks in the universe through which the Time Lords are now calling.
That's not a suitable enough explanation.
@@HarboWholmesyou are biased, you litterally said the silence interference for the explosion of the TARDIS was a fan theory
@@HarboWholmes you said that the explanation was a fan theory tho
Yeah, I fucked up on that part, I'll admit it. I got my wires crossed. I still don't think it's a good explanation though
I think this episode is one of those that you have to not think too much about to enjoy, it's a bit goofy in some ways but fun and enjoyable. Loved it a lot as a kid when it came out
As far as the photo goes, I think that one of the episodes implies that the occasional small thing does stay, like half eaten meals.
I really don't think your problem with the "the doctor lies" quote makes sense, it's a perfectly fine saying
It's not like it was the doctor said that was his number one rule, the line doesn't refer to the doctor's priorities, it's a line used to help the companions to keep in mind that the doctor quite regularly lies, even to them, since it's easy to forget that even someone so close to them won't always tell the truth, it's also consistent with the doctor's multiple regenerations, him being a bit of a lier comes with his trickster persona, it makes sense that companions have to remind themselves of that
I don't particularly agree with several of your points in this video (like for example the reason people don't hate the magical resolution in this finale and do in "the last of the time to lords" is because this whole season took the time to set up the fairy tale tone while season 3 didn't) but it's interesting seeing different takes and discussing it
The Doctor would say his number 1 rule is "don’t wander off."
Interesting point. "Rule number One: The Doctor lies" isn't necessarily the Doctor's list of his priorities, it's a list of things for the companions to remember. It's also not entirely clear that that list didn't originate with River. The Doctor also says it in _Let's Kill Hitler,_ but it's entirely possible he's just echoing back what River said for emphasis.
Also agree that a lot of the problem with _The Last of the Time Lords_ is how poorly set up the resolution was. Though I fall in-between you and Harbo on that one because I don't think _The Big Bang_ set up "The Doctor will be let out of this inescapable trap by a future Doctor who is already out of the trap" at all well either.
@@intergalactic92 It's been both at different points. Rule 1: The Doctor lies (The Big Bang, Let's Kill Hitler), Rule 1: Don't wander off (The Rebel Flesh).
NO NO NO NO!! You misunderstand the cracks entirely!!! The cracks erase people from existence and everyone's memories but they DO NOT erase the impact of the erased people from history and the universe! That's why when Amy's parents are taken by the crack offscreen just before the opening moments of The Eleventh Hour, Amy doesn't get erased from existence. Her life is a paradox, her house is too big. REMEMBER??? This is HINTED ALL OVER THE PLACE in season five. It's stated explicitly a few times in the last few episodes even!!
When I saw the 'NO NO NO NO!!' I thought I was about to read a funny parody comment mocking how hysterical fanboys/girls can get over criticism of their favourite thing, but unless parody and reality have no literally merged into the same thing, you really are just a hysterical fanboy/girl that can't take criticism of their favourite thing.
@@chtholly8084 it's just kinda cringe that he missed the point almost entirely with the whole "cracks creating paradoxes creating more cracks across the universe" thing when, like I said, it's spelled out explicitly many times.
@@chtholly8084 damn, you beat me to it.
@@chtholly8084 How so? This seems like a legitimate correction to Harbo's critique. That *was* consistently how the cracks were shown to work.
I loved THIS DOUBLE EPISODE! LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE! and also love moffat (love the way he makes stuff go and go back, and everything just wraps around). I love it
Your interludes are just as amazing as your analysis. Well done sir. 😆🙌
Maybe because this is the first series I remember watching (my mum tells me I watched series 4 in its entirety but I can’t remember it) but I adore this entire series, including the finale.
It’s like a low stakes Armageddon. RTD’s finale’s fall victim to being too tense, too over the top and they ultimately fall into anti-climax. The way this episode wraps itself up, with The Doctor having to actually suffer rather than just pressing a button in order to survive, it feels more natural
Wait so Moffat DID explained why the Tardis blew up? I always thought it was something he forgot about. Granted it took him until Eleven’s last episode to explain what caused the cracks in time so I’m not surprised I lost track of his cumbersome, long-winded storylines. Out of curiosity why did the Tardis explode? I can’t be bothered checking out a random episode just to catch a throwaway line.
I want to know too I can't remember it coming up again.
Was never explained. Nor was the logic of saving the universe by destroying it before trying out something like just killing the doctor (as in series 6).
@@cslkenny It is. Go watch Time of the Doctor
the tardis was exploding by the kovarian chapter of the silence because they didn't want the doctor to reach trenzalore as they wanted to stop the bloodshed that happen there as well as the time lords returning and restarting the time war.
the cracks in the universe were caused by the Tardis exploding so the silence was responsible for the situation they were try to prevent from happening
@@danielmatthews1032 I kinda feel that it would have been nice with more of an explanation of such an enourmous event than "the kovarian chapter did it". Like, how? When? and so on.
Yeah, going to have to disagree on this one - it's my favourite series finale from the entire run so far. Get your complaints but for me the bootstrap paradox plot of the big bang was just perfect
Rory's centurion journey was what I enjoyed about the finale. I agree with a lot of these, but Rory is the goat
I think Moffat Who just isn't for you, and that's completely fine obviously. I Love RTD and Moffat Who, though I lean more towards RTD.
I think sometimes your lambasting is deserved though. Your dislike shows quite often - like when you tweeted that people wouldn't hate "Once, Upon Time" if it had Moffat's name on it, which is is completely wrong and just seems biased on your part. People flame Moffat's weird shit all the time - see Wedding of River Song or Hell Bent.
5:00 One of the appealing things about Doctor Who is that much of it manages to be goofy as hell *and* menacing, not one or the other. The chompy cyberface looks stupid, but that doesn't mean it'll kill you any less dead if it gets its... face? on you. The callback to the bin eating Mickey is an appropriate one because that was also goofy as hell but it seemed like he could genuinely just have been brutally murdered by it. Especially when a plastic duplicate of him shows up shortly thereafter...
I'm living for the Aunty Donna reference. It is Pud Season after all.
always got room for some pud
19:00
Quote from The Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy:
“It is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation-every Galaxy, every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition, and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake.”
I allways thought the "Rule 1: The Doctor lies" quote is allways meant to be a characterization of River than anything else.
The best part of this story is Amy looking on fleek. After starting on the wrong foot with that leather *thing* she never had one bad outfit.
Wait, what leather thing? You mean the brown leather jacket she wore alongside the red shirt, black mini-short, & cowboy boots in The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood?
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose Nah that Victory outfit.
Finally, someone who doesn't like these as well. I thought I was alone
As someone who watched this episodes as a kid, I just can't hate it. I agree with most citisms, but the good elements far outweigh them for me.
Save your vitriol for Chibnal, these’ll be the ‘good ol’ times,’ you look back on fondly
You speak as if hes never watched chibnalls stories. And stop acting like you know his opinion
I know people are gonna go over the top criticising the video, that’ll always happen.
You have started every video for season 5 saying something along the lines of “I’ll get hate for this” 😅 Are you not maybe revelling in it a bit?
I always thought “Pandorica Opens= Good, Big Bang= not so good” was the popular opinion 🤷🏼
I also hate the "doctor lies" line from River. Everyone knows rule one is don't wander off.
20:55 I like how timely this is, going into series 13's finale..
Aye. And it's interesting to contrast the different ways the two creators handled it. Destroying reality is something you couldn't backtrack on in a satisfying way. Moffat backtracked on it anyway. Chibnall just didn't backtrack on it. Yet. Which leaves us in a more interesting place, IMO.
personally, part one is such a great time and the cliff hanger is one of the best throughout the entire show. part two, however, is a borefest with a terrible climax.
The unexpected Key and Peele, you love to see it 🤣
The stars not being real is because the reality bomb that davross did was successful and the stars did go out
8:07 Lmao, the way he turns to look at him is everything.
While I disagree with a lot there are parts which I do also agree with. This is a really honest and thorough review where you state both your likes and hates instead of it just being episode bad. I definitely feel like a lot of what you don’t like is personal things which happen instead of huge critiques.
Despite it's issues the Smith era will always hold a special place in my heart. 11 is My Doctor. the one I relate to most. He's the mad man with the box. he's quirky and dorky and chaotic and embraces his eccentricities. His incarnation came around at a time when I really needed it. I was a shy, dorky awkward 12 year old just starting in High School. I was bullied and felt like I didn't fit in or know who I was. I needed someone to relate to. I didn't need a bombastic, cool, suave, swashbuckling hero like 10. I needed someone like 11. Smith will always be my fave Doctor.
I'm the complete other way around - I don't like Pandorica Opens but I love the Big Bang for the time travel stuff and the less bombastic approach to a season finale (taking place in a museum).
The Big Bang really was just a precursor to Sherlock S4. An OTT convoluted mess.
A lot of my love for this series can probably boil down to nostalgia. I only remember the fun set pieces and acting from when I watched it growing up.
9:35 (ish) Pretty sure the alliance didn't know that the Doctor was going to end up at that point anyway, they just knew he was going to cause the impending destruction of the universe somehow and they banded together to shut him down - which is in part what *enabled* the explosion because it meant that he wasn't there in the TARDIS to stop it when he needed to be. It's basically a time loop.
I miss Matt Smith
I gotta say, I disagree with the criticism of the bootstrap paradoxes. Sure, they're lazy when done poorly but their mere existence doesn't make them lazy by default. I think here they're used as a focus, making them more tolerable than as a simple one-off contrivance. Plus the misdirect with the "dying" Doctor is quite neat imo.
18:59
Um while the *Dalek* being brought back made no sense. The universe being reverse-calculated from those atoms does make sense.
Those atoms still hold at the smallest level the baseline of the universe, the quarks, and subatomic particles that determine mass, gravity and the like. If you can understand those down to the smallest level. And have a big enough power-source? then yes it does make sense.
But the dalek? no... cause there was nothing to fucking kickstart it's resurrection
I just take issue with the fact that every time they set up multiple villains the only one that ever does anything (if they do anything at all) is the Dalek.
@@intergalactic92 that is sad, and the alliance was an awesome concept because... yes that would be something that happens
I really hope you like christmas carol, it one of my favourite episodes of the show and makes me tear up every time i watch it
I love that episode, one of the best in Moffat's era, and this is coming from a RTD fangirl.
Roman glidus (sword) CAN penetrate steel- my question would how how does stabbing a cyberman body and cutting off its head stop it?
It was shown not even 30 seconds ago that it’s head can move solo and it’s body functions and sees without it????
Im shocked you're talking about all these Moffat lovers when he was nothing but criticised from a large number of fans the moment he started. I loved his era but he had a lot of flaws.
Moffatt can do no wrong. He has never made a mistake in his career. You just dont have a high enough IQ to see his genius finally.
I kinda see where he’s coming from. A two-part episode must be consistent and good. If one part or both parts of it are bad, then the entire narrative falls apart.
They do mention Kovarians chapter of the silence being the ones to destroy the Tardis in time of the doctor i believe
In a throwaway line without any actual explanation
@@HarboWholmes okay? Still an explanation as to why it had happened so the complaint is kinda dumb when it is referenced again
@@HarboWholmes you claimed it wasnt explained and that it was explained through fan theories and yet it has an explanation in the show so were just objectively wrong or lying to make the review more "funny"
Which is insane that they tried to destroy the universe to save the universe… instead of first trying to just kill him.
@@cslkenny to be fair Kovarian never wanted to destroy the universe, just to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore. Unfortunately she didn’t know the consequences of destroying the TARDIS in the vortex.
Ha-ha, Harv still hasn't seen the end of the Flux at this point:)
The doctor is the universe. Weren't you paying attention?
I love the Bootstrap Paradoxes in the Big Bang. They're like a self-preservation mechanism of a dying Universe.
11:39 Moffat took his sweet time explaining who tried to blow up the TARDIS but he finally got there in _Time of the Doctor._ A rogue chapter of the Silence did that in an attempt to ensure that the Doctor could never answer the first question and bring devastation to the universe. (By... blowing up the TARDIS and accidentally bringing devastation to the universe. Oops! No-one ever said it was a *good* plan. xD). (EDIT: Oh okay, you *do* know that. Then why say earlier that it was never explained?)
The Silence don't have the understanding of time that the Time Lords have. A lot of their mistakes were due to the fact that they didn't build their entire society around the Time Vortex. The Time Lords had billions of years to figure out the pros and cons of time travel, which was partially why they so rarely got involved in the affairs of the rest of the universe until the Time War. The Silence had only figured out how to get into the Time Vortex, not the consequences that come with it.
All the Silence really knew was that the Time Lords were dangerous and the Doctor had the power to bring them back. One Time Lord is dangerous enough. Two Time Lords, the second being the Master/Mistress, are a significant threat as long as they aren't distracted by being at each others throats. An entire civilisation of Time Lords could rip the universe and even time itself to shreds, which was exactly what Rassilon intended to do in The End of Time.
Wonder what Division were up to while this was happening
You make some good points but I still LOVE this season ending 😅
And in my head canon, I think Rory remained as long as the doctor before "the lights go out" because while being a fake, he is brought back from a real memory, ie, he actually existed, those romans were just basically npcs from a book.