IT'S JUST MONEY. IT'S MADE UP - MARGIN CALL (2011) 🤯💥
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John Tuld Explains Boom and Bust Business Cycles to Sam Rogers Kevin Spacey. Due to the unprecedented circumstances, floor manager Sam Rogers (Kevin Spacey) is suddenly having a moral crisis and explains to CEO John Tuld (Jeremy Irons) that he wants out of the company. Using a philosophical approach, Mr. Tuld tries to persuade him into staying with the firm for another two years.
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👉 In this movie scene from Margin Call we have John Tuld explaining Boom and Bust Business Cycles to Sam Rogers Kevin Spacey.
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This is the portion of the film where any moral ambiguity is set to the side - Tuld lists off 15 other recessions and basically tells Sam: you can either profit off this like you always have, or you can get out - but you can't pretend to take a moral/ethical stand if you do because you've been complicit for 34 years. It's also notable how quickly Tuld goes back to his crossword when Sam starts to leave. He has absolutely no discernable high conscience or any moral dilemmas to be pondered. Phenomenal acting by Jeremy Irons.
He made the right decision, it sounds bad from a moral prospective, but businesswise ?? that is the most logical decision.. we short stocks everyday if we think it will fall, i dont see any problem with offloading... i will always feel bad for Bill Hwang, that genius!!! i dont know what came over him
I would say he's reached his moral conclusion about what to do. He probably processes things quickly and makes decisions quickly. The consequences be what they are. Since he is the CEO. If he spend time second guessing his actions he would be axed quickly
For a guy of his position
This might be normal
He doesnt regret because he always looking forward
Or on this case
To more profits in the future
There's no moral dilemma. That's just a logical mistake to assume we all subscribe to the same altruistic Judeo-Christian morality. We don't. This guy operates under the morality of the survival of the fittest, and that's why he's eating the steak to celebrate having just done exactly what he needed to do to survive in his world. He came out on top, and he's going right back to being the apex predator tomorrow. There's no moral ambiguity. Eat or be eaten, and he's eating. As you said, phenomenal acting by Jeremy Irons and Spacey as well to capture that moment where he realizes that he's been confusing those two entirely different moral imperatives and the one he really believes in is the survival one - he "needs" the money.
One of the best movies of all time? Wow.
It wasn't his brains that put him in that chair, it was his willingness to do what others wouldn't with zero hesitation.
3:56
Tuld runs through all of the market bubble collapses from the Tulip Craze to present.
He knows his financial history.
Outstanding screenplay.
I imagine a lot of people who get that high up have spent many years looking at the game from that macro of a standpoint. I can't even imagine the amount of time sunk just into learning history itself just to always be one step ahead.
Rogers went upstairs to resign and give Tuld a piece of his mind, but then Tuld reminded him of the reality of the world they operate in, and in his heart Rogers knew Tuld was right!
Kipling wrote a poem, back in 1920, called "The Gods of The Copybook Headings". I would recommend you read it.
Yeah, Tuld is right. "It's all made up." And it was also right what Will Emerson said earlier in the movie; "I've got my hand on the scale in favor of all these people who want their cars and their houses they can't even afford; I take it off, and then the world gets real fuckin' fair real fuckin' quickly."
It's all based on people thinking lies. Thinking that they're owed, when they're not. And the real crime? Is always selling to those lies, at someone else's dime. Rather than take the hit and squash someone into their shoes and back down to earth, even though it may cost both you and them.
Politicians, financiers and all other such ideological salesmen... media-ites and traders and HR managers... May sell "solutions" to the problems. And those solutions may in fact, in the specific sense, work. But it is pretty much always to problems that they _themselves created_ in the first place. Net gain? Nothing. Net loss? We have to drag their asses around. And then they get steak and wine luncheons, to boot.
The world getting real fuckin' fair, if it really is _fair_ and not "equal", isn't so bad a thing. And if genuinely pursued, it starts with a man like Tuld having to re-train as a carpenter.
Of course it is. People with money are stupid once they have it, buying everything they could laid their eyes on without nay disregard and financial KEEPING. They would buy, out of herd mentality and ludicrous speculation, in a form of debt from any asset backed securities. The bankers, capital investments firms and hedge fund managers just pour gasoline into the flame. At least that's how I understand it.
"We just started a financial crisis. There is a lot of money going to be made going out of it."
As far as I am concerned, this is one of the best movies of all time. It did not try to show how it had happened, but wanted to answer why it happened: the mentality and world view of the people who had caused the crash of 2008. To my mind, Margi Call is pure genius.
Jeremy Irons portrayal of John Tuld; cold, callous and calculating, is mesmerizing... to imagine that such egomaniacs are pulling our financial levers is both illuminating and terrifying simultaneously. A tour de force performance.
I wouldn't say he was an egomaniac at all. I wouldn't even say he was the antagonist here. They had only one option and he had the balls to take it.
He made the logical decision...... im sure he doesn't borrow family members money, he knows he will never get it back, dont shame yourself into doing what you know isn't right for you
He was based on Richard Fuld at Lehman. There are videos of Fuld testifying before congress, watch them. You will swear Irons studied him.
Is that news to you?
Not hard to imagine if you consider the immense stress those positions take on a person. And what kind of person would most likely succeed in such high pressure occupations.
Best Wall Street Movie I've ever seen. -30 yr Wall Street veteran
I've just watched this movie (and the big short). Sam at the end really had nothing left in his life but work. Lost his wife, home and dog. Does he even have friends, he probably works 60, 70 hours a week. The people he works with aren't friends. He says he will continue to work because he needs the money. He probably earns enough in a year for the average person to retire early on. He has to keep working because that is all he has left. Sad life really.
I was a “financial advisor” through all this time frame. I called my customers and in so many words tried to explain this cluster. No one could grasp it. I tried to talk with my fellow brokers but it was exactly like talking to my garage door. I got out of that business just as fast as I could sell all my positions as close to par a possible. By 2010 I was out. Best decision I ever made.
"You're still good. Somebody up there must really like you." Dude has been in the company for thirty-four years and gets talked to that way. The same way he said earlier, "They are gone and should never be mentioned again." No wonder these people have no remaining connection to humanity.
The most prolific portion of the scene IMO...."it's all just the same thing over and over...we can't help ourselves." The brutal truth.
Jeremy Irons is the best actor of all time. Brilliant. I love that so many people agree that this movie is a classic.
Tuld even holds his fork like a
Fucking boss.
It's the same but in different picture, the General lose his entire soldiers for the King's bidding. He knew it was a losing battle, and none of his soldiers would live. He wanted to quit after the battle, but the King remind him...that is what soldiers are for, for their King and their Generals, so they can live, and continue the war, for the sake of illusion of actually winning it.
I wasn't sure I would like this film, high end finance has never really been my bag, but I quickly found myself completely absorbed by the story and the stellar acting of everybody involved.
Seeing how Tuld (Jeremy Iron) listed out all major financial crisis is telling he was not just a higher up who let everything run by his minions but truly well educated and well thought strategizer who probably started his carrier from below rather by inheritance or spoon-fed to him.
The acting in this film is truly phenomenal, but especially Jeremy Irons and Kevin Spacey
Right when the dialogue is about to start, the music stops. I wish all movies were like that. Amazing film
Spacey's stillness in this scene is mesmerizing. Someone has to have the scene. It is testament to Irons that he knew the gravity had to be with Spacey's character, and while he gives the very speech that underpins the movie's premise, he defers to character that represents the viewer, or I should say, who the director identifies as the analogue of the viewer.
The best movie most people haven’t seen. Brilliant acting, dialogs and plot.
This movie should be required watching from 9th grade all the way through graduate school. Every year!
I worked at a bank during the lending frenzy. One thing that never ever gets talked about are the people who wanted to live millionaire lifestyles knowing damn well they couldnt and wouldnt be paying it back. Greed is a cultural problem in america. From the top to the bottom, we are all living beyond our means.
Sounds like absolute bullshit. Last I checked American taxpayers lacked enough money to make sucker bets totaling billions of dollars, lose the bets, and force hardworking citizens to cover their greedy, sociopathic fuck ups. They also didn’t receive golden parachutes worth millions of dollars as a reward for destroying the lives of millions, and driving tens of thousands into depression, suicide and homelessness.
if jeremy irons was leading Lehman Bros in 2008. they would still be in business today.
pretty sure the other investment banks have their own 'jeremy irons'
Best movie about that era of Financial Services because it lays it bare. No political bias, just the story of what happens when powerful people see the heat around the corner
Are you gonna keep the kid? What kinda question is that? That dude is a certified genius in a room filled with geniuses, you don't let that kinda talent walk out.
All he did was based off of Eric Dale's work who ends up being fired
Something that never ceases to amaze me, and we see it in many of these 'finance' movies, is how these people literally make MILLIONS of dollars a year...yet they still need money. Even when they don't NEED the money, they keep chasing it. It's like an addiction...a drug. In the one with Vin Diesel, the one guy had bought a rediculous house and he hadn't even moved into it 6 months later because he was too busy chasing the NEXT big thing! Here's Rogers, 34 years in the business and he needs the money?
I've never been one of these people, but you're absolutely right. My X owns a software company and the guys who worked for her made a lot of money and she was doing very well, multimillion dollar house nearly paid off, etc. But her guys wanted more, more contracts. It's always the same. More is needed. More More More. Doesn't matter how much they or any has. They could still have more and so want it... They'd say they would do the work, work around the clock, do anything... but of course I knew she would be the one busier with less and less time for anything else.
You can't have enough money. There is no biological or neurological brake for money. You can have too much food, too much sex, too much from basically everything - but not too much money. That is the first big problem. The second is that it isn't really about the money. Money is just the score you measure your success with. It is all about "winning", showing that you can do it.
There is a reason why many sport stars have problems after their career. They still have money, but they don't have that feeling of success anymore. It is an addiction that can hardly be cured.
There's an experiment that concludes making money triggers a reaction in the brain the same way cocaine does on human brains. So yeah it's addictive.
Because there’s always more. Because bills don’t cease. Because there’s an image to uphold. Because if you retire, you’re obsolete. You contribute nothing. You may as well be dead.
I understood it as something he told himself to simply convince himself that he did it because he wanted. In a sense this is similar to " you can't fire me, I quit".
Whoever wrote the script did a brilliant job and got it right.
Boss was right as it relates to the facts. Hard to argue with that. Morality of it all of course is another conversation.
How does a man absolutely dominate any scene they are in???? Jeremy Irons as we say in shona, "Sando Dzako!" - you just soo good!
1:26 there was almost satisfaction in seeing the cold hearted firing team, themselves get let go.
Irons is brilliant in this isn’t he?
Whatever else we might say about Spacey? He's a damn good actor. This film has a lot of brilliant acting all through it.
Irons just kills it in this.
Matthew McConaughey almost said the same thing in Wall Street. True money is just made paper with pictures on it so we don't kill each other to get something to eat. It's amazing how honest these people can be about the world but there is an emotional disconnect. They can't see or don't care about the damage they cause. Then again does it say something about our culture? We place value on things that don't really exist. Stock markets, money and financial gain against physical needs like water, food and shelter. Was the market crash really a reflection of a few executive's poor choices or is it a reflection of population as a whole living a dream world that just got snapped back to reality?
To bring it down while still adressing your point, I honestly see the whole situation created out of a political goal without the means to back it up. Both Clinton and Bush Jr pushed through policies to make more people homeowners. A noble endeavour supported by both parties and the population as a whole. People loved when they were promised affordable mortgages and they loved when politicians talked about increasing the % of homeowners by this and that. This is the shelter you mentioned. It was a physical need ordinary people wanted and it was cheap points for those who promised it. Problem was two fold though. On one hand they did it by increasing privatization and the other was Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. On one hand you had private companies who only worked for profit with no security and on the other you had FM/FM who were semi federal entities (lots of security). Since FM/FM were/are the giants with federal backing, the private sector felt pretty secure to speculate wildly since more than 50% of the market had federal backing. On the other hand FM/FM were increasingly competing on a volatile market while having obligations to take much more risky mortages than they had before. It was out of this system that those mental and intricate securities on mortages was born.
"we can't help ourselves"... gets me every time
This doesn't even look like a movie: it's a *real* life scene.
man do I love this movie. It really should be heralded way more than it is for being a modern classic.
I know people are calling Tuld “evil” or “immoral” but he absolutely made the right call and because if he didnt do it somebody would have done it to him
The best part about this scene? Him realizing he must lay in the bed that he made.
Miss me with the tears.
It’s always the top executive like tuld that says “it’s just money” in the most cavalier way because characters like him always have money and don’t have to worry like the rest of society. So the character of Tuld Is truly out of touch with the rest of the world. Here he is sitting down at the restaurant eating his breakfast without a care in the world while the rest of the public are about to be in for one nasty economic shock.
One cannot help but wonder what Tudd was like when he was in a junior position...maybe like Spacey? Wanting to get out...but knowing that it is in his life blood? How many soldiers or other professionals want to get out, but knowing 16 hours later, they'll be back?
At least da kid received what he deserved a Damn Promotion Kudos to him
People need to really understand that this is how WALL STREET works.....
Dealing debt like it's Heroin......
This is the best movie about 2008 I've found. Reminds people that everyone is greedy, not just the people who are best at it.
Speak for yourself. Not everyone lacks integrity.
I remember seeing this as a teenager and I completely got sucked in without getting bored.
You know when you are at a big financial institution when they have a steakhouse in the building.
Man, this movie is good!!
'I'm starting to fell a little bit better about this whole thing' terrifying . . .
The key phrase - "we can't help ourselves" is so true for the why and why it will no doubt happen again over and over.
the people who saved the company from losing billions are the ones fired, whilst the boss eats away upstairs....
The traders did get their 2 million bonuses for a days work
Ya that's the way our society works. I am sure people could see that its not fair to some degree but if you were to ask them what they want, the majority would want to be the guy eating away upstairs instead of changing for a much more fairer system. That's nature - greed.
First off, every one of those fired brokers left as multi-millionaires.
Besides, what were they gonna do if they stayed?
They burned all their business connections, and no one in the industry would work with them again.
If they were kept on, the company would lose money.
Ain't no company gonna last that way.
A pair of rationalizers, having their moment: Tuld removing the blame on himself for his role in the crisis by moving it to ephemeral centuries-long boom/bust economic cycles; Sam thinking he's above it all when, as Tuld points out, Sam has been doing the same thing for decades. And will gladly stay for 2 more years to collect his fat bonus and options. A truly excellent script.
Just as well they all had that meeting at such an uncommon hour.
11 years on, he is still working there.
Just one question - what happened with Eric Dale? Did he get promotion? Because he was a chief of analysis department and that "model" was totally his project (except little final details). But despite those details all the core members were aware of that big bomb, which was incepted in those value papers, bonds and other financial derivative tools.
Jeromy Irons always delivers a performance.
I never caught this before but during this whole speech you can hear the helicopter arriving in the background and it keeps going as if it’s idling on the helipad on the roof, serving as a sort of golden parachute for Tuld to leave the scene of the crime.
5:50 Same as it ever was, same as it ever was..
Knowing history MATTERS !!! Ask Rooks, Knights, or Bishops. All those KEY years he rambled off in perfect sequence was significant in that industry. (write them down and review them). Those KEY years were not so significant to the underlings, which is a contributing factor to their status as Pawns in the Game. Math formulas & Historical formulas have an overlapping nexus that can allow for the manipulation of the present, thereby cultivating the future.
I'd take that deal....just it in an office for 24 months and literally do nothing.
The only person hungry at this point of the day…
My favourite film ever. Brilliant script and all actors superb. Demi Moore small part was brilliant.
I don’t know why Sam wanted to resign. Was he disappointed when he was told he’d kept his job ?
Going to Be lots of money to be made getting out of this mess 😃 and we're going to need all the brains...super smart Smarties
For sure. Everyone knows that we just killed the market, across every single nation - America, China, England, Australia, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, Tokyo, France, Austria, South Africa, Belgium, New Zealand, Canada, Hawaii, and anything else I forgot to include..... I'm not exactly seeing a 'way out' of this?
The clarity of capitalism is seductive. Libidinal even. The winners and losers are so clearly defined, "we make a lot money if we get it right or we get left by the side of the road if we get it wrong." Tuld gives us a sense of inevitability as he runs down the history of the boom/bust cycles of capitalism, topping it off with a "we can't help ourselves" and "we can't control it or stop it or slow it or even ever so slightly alter it." It is a master class on the concept of the eternal return. To which, Rogers responds by accepting capitalism's inexorable amorality. He aligns himself with his "need"--his drive towards financial self preservation. Much in the same way Zarathustra accepts the eternal return and reorients himself from despair to finding "joy" in the inevitable. For the viewer we watch Rogers struggle with his new found (and quickly lost) morality in a world that has no time or space for ethical dilemmas. For him, and Tuld, and everyone like them, there is only one moral obligation--survival. From this point of view everything Tuld says is an ethical framework where everything that furthers survival is moral and everything that doesn't is immoral. Tuld didn't just do what needed to be done he did something harder--he did what was right.
Wish I could see this film on Netflix. Watching parts just driving me crazy .I need beginning to end .
They said it was a "lost decade" and they were right! The little people got screwed.
He forgot the recession (more like depression) that really kicked off in 1980/81. People forget about how brutal that time was...at least for average Joe's!
Anyone else notice that Irons had been speaking with a sort of American accent earlier in the film but in this scene seems to have abandoned it and mostly spoke in his own English accent?
Irons is a natural, too good!
this and the big short are 2 great and equally important but wildly different POV's on the 2008 crisis. one is a poetic and artistic viewpoint of the people facilitating the greed and corruption that lead to the crash. the other is a very gritty, disgusting, unfiltered view of human beings going through the motions. someone pointed out that in the scene from the big short where mark baum meets with the CDO manager, at the end of the conversation he just says "you are an incredibly big piece of shit". any other film maker wouldve had mark say some poetic one liner that gets put on the cover of the DVD box. make the scene memorable and poignant. that's this movie. it's memorable, artistic, and poignant. but in that moment mark baum is angry. he's overwhelmed with negative thought to the point that he cant form poetic justice, and even if he could that wouldnt have been in character for him, that'd've been in character for Tuld. i LOVE the scene where he and zach quinto explain it with an analogy of the music stopping/slowing. theres poetry and artistic license all over that scene and it's perfect for this kind of movie, but when watching both of these movies back to back you can see a very clear, if exaggerated, view of exactly what happened. businessmen created an artificial business loop so they could all make money together, and they kept compounding and conflating the loop to allow more and more people to cash in on it. until it became a bubble, and it only took 1 real person to notice, Dr Michael Burry, who set in motion everything that lead to the collapse of the market. the destruction of the american economy. and in that moment dr burry was doing exactly what tuld and rogers were doing, complicitly trying to make money on the downfall of others, in order for mr burry to make money, the fucked up tranches of the system would've had to have collapsed so even if the banks HADNT tried to short their position before paying him he still would've toppled the economy. and it all happened because no one was paying attention until it was too goddamn late. because they were too busy jerking each other off trying to make money.
After decades of film watching from many angles, an imperfectly crafted/written character stands out to me. Sam/Spacey's character is the part of this movie I don't particularly "buy." At this level of business for 40 years, and he just now has an emotional reaction to what has been his day in day out bread and butter? Seems contrived to me. Even implausible, given the close association with his scripted opposite, John/Irons. In other scenes, the Sam character is irreplaceable as the means to drive the story forward, so he is not a total loss as a scripted plot device. Also, being left with the impression that all his histrionics were rubbish when agreeing to remain with the firm because he needs the money reveals he is more of a louse then even John/Irons. One of them was very honest, one wasn't.
Same exact thing is happening in China today....just 10X as big.
Great to watch these two giants sparing!!
Thank you!
“I need the money. It’s hard to believe, but after all these years I need the money”. Meaning two things. 1) He was the underpaid loyal workhorse in the company and 2) those recessions Tuld listed hurt him.
Sobering truth to the reality of how the world actually works. The whole lunch speech was a very sad truth.
I’m trying to determine whether Kevin Spacey was more epic in this movie or American Beauty… 🤔…. Margin Call for me was more of an all-around more enjoyable movie 🎥 though… It’s just money … what they never said was it’s their livelihood and we cheated our customers …. What an eye opener 👏
Kevin Spacey's actin is impecable...
This is such a chilling performance when you realize these people are ruling over the end of the world and will defend to the death the system and the privileges Irons' character dismisses as natural and amoral.
"It's just money, it's made up"
Only two types of people say such a thing.
People who have so much of it that it's no longer relevant to them, they work out of habit for the satisfaction of watching numbers and a bank balance sheet go up.
People who have so little of it that they start denying reality and making up BS excuses as to why them being in that situation shouldn't matter.
Moral dilemma for him will only come up if he cheats. But he never cheats, so he is good with the decision he made.
Mr Sullivan finally got invited to dine at the executive lounge 😂
Tuld in this scene already feels as though he has the entire situation under control, and that nothing really bad has happened. This is just another Tuesday for him.
the dining scene starts with a shot of the boss eating at the top of the world all alone and it ends the same way, all alone. wouldn't trade places with him for all the money in the world.
Despite all the mess they are in you got the feeling that the CEO has got himself covered.
Indeed, not only covered but if the building they're in was about to collapse he has a helicopter on the roof to escape
Can someone explain what they mean by no loose ends? And also why do they need to keep him for extended time? Any specific reasons?
Great scene. Nicely written.
Amazing scene by top actors. Amazing and scary scene for the financial realities it exposes. And its not a pretty scenario.
Saddest live in the movie “I need the money hard to believe after all these years”. Made of fortune and doesn’t have much to show for it
Jeremy Irons: " It's just money. It's just made up."
Kevin Spacey in court:" You honor, it's just sex. It's just made up."
When he says someone upstairs really likes you? Did he mean him? Or Tuld?
'So, the music is about to stop, and if we mess this up, we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of excrement in the history of .... anything?'
Hey, it's all good, I see a way out - we have most likely destroyed our reputation across every single nation - America, China, England, Australia, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, Tokyo, France, Austria, South Africa, Belgium, New Zealand, Canada, Hawaii, and anything else I forgot to include - but we need you for for the next 24 months, and the kid is getting promoted.
This movie is riveting - from beginning to end!
When he says “Happy fucks and sad sacks” I immediately start hearing Gruber from Die Hard 3 😂
Great writing and great performances.
That “made-up” stuff determines whether people live comfortable - sometimes lavishly so - while others struggle to enough food and shelter to carry on. 🤨
So chart patterns does not work?
This movie is such a gem!
I just realized that this is kind of reunion for these two actors from the LA Confidential days. Simon Baker was just a new kid on the block back then