Tank mains can finally breathe for once without having to clench their buttcheeks for the entire game knowing the entire game rests on their ability to stay alive.
Lol will you come play with me? Because it generally feels like the entire game rests on MY ability to keep the brainless tank alive. 😂 (I'm kidding. Mostly.)
Season 14- Bring back 6v6 Season 15- "We brought back loot boxes!" Season 16- Remove the 2 from Overwatch Season 17- Fuck up Season 18 - Kiriko mythic skim
@@bornsniper9531Not according to Blizzard. In Overwatch 1, they did try various numbers of players on each team and decided 6v6 was best. Now, while they have gone to 5v5 evidently they can see that 6v6 could work and isn't "trash" otherwise they wouldn't offer this opportunity for players to show what we want. You know you can analyze the actual people/company you're talking about and not just say stuff that obviously isn't true right?
Unlikely. The norm back in the day was 6 DPS or 5-DPS-1-Mercy on both teams. The average game in that mode will probably be 3-DPS-2-supports-1-tank. That is a huge improvement over the old open queue problem of your team having 0 of a role and the enemy winning in spawn from having 1 of each role to properly play the game. You also get to keep open queue queue times without completely destroying the match quality improvements that came with role queue. And if you think the person playing solo tank is throwing, you have no excuse for not swapping tank yourself mid-match. Win-win-win.
@@Dmanbradley that was never norm past 2016 lol, even in quickplay people would have at least 1 tank and 2 supports, or just play goats because people like winning.
@@Dmanbradley I think there will be a discrepancy between what we'll see from the highest tier and everyone else. While it's true that most of OW1's life featured mostly DPS on both teams, GOATS cropped up in the Open Queue format and didn't stop until Role Queue was added. I think GOATS Will come back for organized teams and most of everyone else will play Deatmatch except you can't shoot 5 players.
I'm a support main. The really ironic thing about them trying to justify 5v5 with queue times is that in Ovw1 I would play tank fairly regularly but in 5v5 i never play tank anymore. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
(D.va main) I full quit the game because I liked to 3rd dps and dive the back line. My healer friends could support me doing this so it worked well, but 5v5 just made every game feel like shield meta. Same routes same fights. I think I played more dps in the first 3 seasons than I did in the 3 years before that (excluding arcade game modes)
I wouldn't say its happening because of marvel rivals, if they're taking action, it's more likely that they're doing it because of deadlock. Imo marvel rivals is not gonna last very long
@@SirenRyanyeah, just erase the 60 bucks spent on the first game. It would have been nice to not be forced into their microtransaction simulator and just play the original overwatch
@@ghoulishgoober3122 if they brought back Overwatch the day the shutdown the old servers and brought up Overwatch 2, I'd go right back to playing it again.
Haven't played for maybe a year... this sounds like it'd be worth checking out. I usually play tank and it gets kinda frustrating getting focused all the time.
It’s not going to be, it’s gonna be shit. Coming from someone who’s actively played both OW1 and OW2, nothing they do can fix the mess they’ve made. I’m serious about it, don’t come back.
It should be a crime to steal a game from consumers like that. Ppl paid money for the rights to ow1 it should be unlawful to remove access from players. They wouldn't be forced to keep servers up but they should allow players to host their own. Fkn scam
They better test this out properly. Give it a fair shot. Test, evaluate, test, evaluate again, test, etc. If it's just a one shot and done, it'll be the most dishonest way possible to quell the debate.
The thing is though, they could do all that and determine 5v5 is vetter and you still wouldn't accept it because no amount of test results would make you change your mind.
@@PaulStargasm I do think 6v6 would be better but not with the current iteration of the game, some tanks are gonna need big reworks because who's gonna wanna play into smth like orisa jq
@@PaulStargasm That's very presumptuous of you. All I want them to test it out honestly and fairly. If 5v5 is determined to be better, then that's fine by me. But there's really only one way of finding that out. I will caveat this by saying, as 5v5 is *today*, with the specific problems it has now, I fall on the side of it not being better than OW1 was as an example. Nor do I find the game state to be better than even the 6v6 community code, which by itself suffers from a ton of limitations as a result of being part of the Workshop, but I still personally enjoy that experience more than the core game (as it exists today). That is to say, they could (although I doubt it) find through these tests ways to address the current shortfalls of 5v5. Again, the only way to know is to test. What remains clear in my opinion is that the games current trajectory is not promising. Something has to change, be that the format or finding ways of adding greater flexibility (akin to this Kingmaker idea, possibly). Balancing 5v5 in a way where you don't have raidbosses running around the map while also not making tanks entirely useless has proven to be extremely challenging, to say the least. Mind you, these problems were extremely predictable from the very beginning and they ran head first into making this change anyways. Years later, they've not yet found an answer. Make of that what you will.
@@lunatuna6935 The 6v6 community code actually does make some pretty neat adaptions to the tanks that work quite well in spite of the obvious limitations of the mode being balanced and made in the Workshop mode.
To test it properly they have to revert the projectile size increases and health changes. Both of those were ill advised for 5v5 but also damage 6v6 even more. The extra hp contributes to stale-matey comps and sustain while the bullet sizes contribute to spam and decrease skill expression. If they don’t change those back for 6v6 they are purposely throwing.
im sorry but if you think ow2 is gonna cook just bc 6v6 is back you're delusional, they're gonna be just as incompetent as they've been the last 13 seasons
So much cope with the ppl who think THIS (b)Lizard can make the game better if they just go to 6v6. Its clear they aren't the great Blizzard that it once was. This is just a corp wearing blizzs skin after they choked it out
seriously Kingmaker sounds just like Clash, something to get people excited for future content but when it actually releases it's going to be cancer to actually play and people will hate it
they're only brining 6v6 back to try and get more people playing, but its going to go horrible - 1. queue times will suck and 2. these new rules are garbage. Just make the game 7v7, 2 tanks 3 dps and 2 support. You get the benefit of faster queues while also getting benefit of 2 tanks who actually main tank.
so instead of being called out to swap to another hero you're gonna get called out to play another role 😂 did we not learn anything from the priority pass - pressuring people into playing something else only results in worse games.
I could see a world where both 6v6 and 5v5 exist if you look at other games like WoW. 6v6 could be “Overwatch Classic”. And 5v5 could be “Overwatch 2” with builds like Junkenstein’s Lab. Games are always polarizing like this. You have folks who don’t want much of anything to change despite some new maps/heroes, and are turned off by change. Then, you have others who want change and their beloved game to evolve with wacky abilities and new ways to play and experience it. Time will tell ❤ #HOPIUM
@@gorillagroddgaming definitely a flawed game, i see a path for it to get better, which is why i still play. if you dont play and hate it, why are you still watching content creators?
In overwatch, I was one of the tanks. In overwatch 2, I was one of the tanks that blizzard decided they didn't want queuing for tank anymore. I won't queue for a role where I don't have someone else as a teammate to help me. There isn't any reason for 1 person to be doing two people's jobs
5v5 tank is the antithesis of my playstyle. I love enabling team members, i dont wanna be the play maker. So I am a bit glad I don't need to lock in support or Mei to get scratch my supportive playstyle itch.
They have to replace QP entirely with these test modes or there won't be enough data and feedback to go on. Hopefully the streamers push it hard enough to make an impact.
The point in not replacing quickplay entirely is for that very reason.... what good would the data be if you forced people into something? Were by not forcing them you can gauged if they even A. care about the feature or B. enjoyed the feature. If you can see that Player A plays about the same, tries out 6v6, and plays it instead of 5v5 but doesn't really increase play time we can see they like it or are at least interested. If you can see that Player B plays about more then before, tries out 6v6, and plays it instead of 5v5 we can see the mode is very interesting to them and increased their playtime. If you can see that Player C hasn't played the game in some time and has now become active we can consider them a returning player and if they play 6v6 and keep playing it we can see that they found interest in 6v6 and will return to the game for it. If you can see that Player D hasn't played the game in some time and has now become active we can consider them a returning player and if they play 6v6, but they give up playing after a day or 2 we can see the change wasn't enough to retain them so they're simply not interested. If you can see that Player E plays about the same, tries out 6v6, but then goes back to 5v5 we can see that this player gave it a shot but was not interested. If you can see that Player F plays about the same and never even tried 6v6 then they either live under a rock or had no interest in 6v6 to begin with so clearly they aren't missing 6v6.
Well it won’t be that bad because it’s gonna be open Que. Basically it’s gonna keep Que times shorter because people can have either 3 DPS and that’s it. Sooo we can have MORE customization to 6v6
They're the same as they where back in ow1 support queue is longer it's like 10 minutes, and dps queue is like 1 minute shorter and tank is basically the same
@@Bubbagaming90000 with Open Que, the time will actually drop drastically. Open Que times right now are insanely faster than role Que. so with open Que, and with people playing 6v6, these times will be way faster.
my one concern is if they rebalance tank back for 6v6, and since tank is he least popular, therell often be a poor chap solo tanking as a gimp tank and wont be able to switch due to min 1
It took the threat from competition like Marvel Rivals for Blizzard to listen. I'm done man... old and bitter. 10 long years of making OW worse every patch - NOW they want to start making it good? Whatever. Marvel Rivals 6th of december. I'm moving on.
Quickplay can honestly be made 100x better with these changes. - Implement the 2 Role Limit with a preferred role starting pick. Once in the game you can move around as desired / available. (or not if we go 6v6). - Any player vs Any player so the game just looks for 2 tanks, 4 supports, 4 dps. ( or 4 x 4 x 4 if its 6v6). - Instead of going straight into a game you go into a lobby with the other 9 players (or 11 if we move to 6v6). - You'll have 30 seconds before a match begins. - You'll be given 2 random games modes with random map on each and as well as the previous mode (if a match already occurred). - After each match the teams will be adjusted swapping players around (if applicable can't with a full team for instance). - Remove leaver bans as now the matches are quick and once a new player is found the lobby will likely keep going for some time until the next person leaves. - Allow the ability to queue Quickplay while in queue for Competitive so you have something to play while you wait. This can also be a special competitive only quickplay queue even with role restrictions removed. Similar to how there's an unranked queue and competitive queue deathmatch lobby. Boom now you have faster quickplay queues, map voting, and a way to play with the same people over and over. If you don't like the lobby back out and find a new one. It'll be funny if they end up going this route some day but it takes 10-20 years to do it.
I really hope we get 6v6 back, I honestly really have not enjoyed 5v5 these last few months! Even if they just make 5v5 changes, anything is better than the current state of the game.
6v6 is cool, but it will never be like it was. The new heroes, IMO are garbage, they trying to do everything. Everyone has movement, heals, shields, damage.
It will always be 3 dps but the optimum comp will always be 3 tanks so yeah, it's gonna be misery especially when the enemy team is playing the ideal comp.
king maker sounds very interesting, im looking forward to that one. random idea that probably wouldnt work out: when ur the lone king u get to pick passives like in the junkenstein mode lol
Kingmaker mode sounds fun. I am for testing different formats. Having a 5v5 and 6v6 format sounds fine to me if it wont explode que times and they can make them each relatively balanced.
I think they should make the game back into 6v6 but put tanks into two category: Frontline and Diver. You would need to have one of each. Frontline tanks would be Mauga, Orisa, Ramattra, Reinhardt, Sigma and Zarya. Divers would be D.Va, Doomfist, Junker Queen, Roadhog, Winston and Wrecking Ball. At least Zarya and Winston would need to be reworked into some extent to fit into their roles better. Same for other possible outliers as well ofc. This would fix the annoying double barrier meta we used to have back in the day when everyone hated it.
Im pretty confident that the 6v6 gameplay will be as good as 5v5, but i dont really see the queue times issue being fixed, I hope that somehow people actually want to play tank for more than a few games after it comes out.
I think we passed the point where the 5v5 vs 6v6 debate made any sense a long time ago. The game has been tuned towards 5v5 and anti-team mechanics for so long that introducing another tank isn't going to solve some fundamental problem with team structure. At this point the design issues are at a higher level. I think they're closer to viably removing roles entirely than they are to making a meaningful change with a 6v6 structure.
I just hope when they try to balance tanks they don't do universal changes and instead opt for character by character changes. Like, reducing 100 HP from Orisa is a lot different than 100 HP from Doomfist and Junker Queen.
Imagine a world where ow went free to play in 2019 instead of going To ow 2 we still get an archive mission every year. Their would be 3 more characters and the bp could have lootboxes of old skins
I play so much less tank now that there’s only one. I feel like it’s so much harder to play tank when all of the pressure is on you and your choice. If I was able to rely on another tank, I’d feel more comfortable with my choices and not railroaded into choosing meta picks only.
I also stopped playing after OW2 released, although that was mostly because they stopped making the heroes free for everyone on release. Didn't like the idea of my team not having the exact same hero options as the enemy team.
I feel like, after 13 seasons of people not enjoying 5v5, they need to accept that it didn't work out and stop trying to think of cute ways to spice up 5v5 to get people to warm up to it again.
They should just make it optional for people who like 5v5 and 6v6, like a separate option for 6v6 in competitive and quick play, or all modes and keep 5v5 as well, and if they’re nerfing tanks for 6v6 they can probably put those changes in the 6v6 version, like how total mayhem has changes on the characters and dosent effect the other modes.
this is gonna be a mess unless they completely rework the health values for open queue tanks, because right now characters like ball and roadhog are extremely strong in that mode & characters like zarya and JQ are useless because their health pools are just way too low.
is it sad that i dont care anymore? i still like watching your vids sty, but like fuck the monetization, and honestly i dont even care about 6v6 anymore, i fell out of love with overwatch
@@PainxSorrow I get the sentiment, but as someone who loved OW1 and hates OW2 (not even because of monetization, but because of 5v5) i would encourage you to atleast give 6v6 a shot Yes they did basically everything wrong and ruined a great game, but theres no reason to hate now when they are actually listening for once I for one will play the shit out of 6v6 Open Q and 2-2-2 i want it back as main mode so badly
Why on earth would I ever buy a skin, when tanking in 5v5 means I can't play a given tank hero for more than a minute or two max. I certainly will never buy more than 1 skin at current prices, so I don't buy anything at all.
This is the best news for the game I've heard in a looong time. I'm actually starting to agree with the decision to ditch PVE and OWL, if it means they can keep the core game interesting and do more experiments like this. Don't get me wrong they still fucked up big time with both of those and I hope they take the RIOT Arcane route and get an animated series going because the lore of this game is awesome and it'd be a real shame if all of it went to waste. Min 1 Max 3 and the kingmaker modes actually sound like great potential solutions to the 5v5 vs 6v6 problem, I think the big question will be what modes will be incorporated into ranked once these tests are finished. I think especially the players who played through the drought years of OW1 will realize how massive these updates are for the game. I just hope they make the most out of this original IP in the future and not use it completely for a cash grab like they've been doing. That's why I don't want to play Marvel Rivals, it just feels like another milking of the Marvel IP.
So bit worrying came back at hearing 6v6 might come back. But hearing no balance change and if I heard it right you could have 3 tanks? Sure hope I miss heard that they are to strong right now
6 vs 6 is the core design of OW, removing 1 player from each team was a stupid mistake. What we have since OW2 released was re-design and re-balance process of that stupid move.
They should bring back LFG is this what they're doing. You could mandatory lock players into a role in LFG, forcing 2-2-2, and that's what I used to do before RQ was added. 9/10 times you'd play against other 2-2-2 6 stacks. They said they wont add it back because it was too hard to moderate but I'm calling bs on that. Scroll through the custom games browser and you'll see loads of game breaking the rules, but they're ok with that but not LFG? Nah.
The switch to 5v5 was the main reason I stopped playing when 2 came out. I loved classic Overwatch despite its flaws. 5v5 was just too different. Pls Blizzard.
The first game mode makes me think we could revive GOATS with the min 1 max 3. I'll play the modes for a bit but I'm expecting little. The bar is on the floor and if it still disappoints me then I'll fully quit.
I'm so excited about these new modes. 6v6 again but also new ways to form your team. I am so done with content revolving around cosmetics. Season 14 is gonna cook!!
Whether it's Overwatch or WoW or even Diablo, Blizzard is finally being far more receptive to players/customers then they have ever been in the past. It's not perfect, but it's far better.
They should Also let you do prefered role tho, just to assure that at lest 1 player wanted to play each role, só no One is actually forced INTO a role they don't want
I sincerely hope not. Going back to 6v6 just means a massive nerf to tanks, and going back to them being effectively just fat DPS. Honestly, if this actually goes through, then I think I'm done with Overwarch pemanently.
YES THIS IS WHAT THE GAME NEEDS NO MORE COUNTERSWAPPING PERMANENTLY NO MORE RAID BOSS TANKS THAT ARE UNKILLABLE NO MORE LOSING BECAUSE 1 TEAMMATE ISNT DOING THEIR JOB AND WE GET DUO BACK, BLIZZARD PLEASE KEEP IT
That is only possible if they nerf the characters that cause the problems. Despite enjoying 6v6 in its last years, I can tell certain characters are causing the big problems but it was only noticable if your a top rank player.
@@quantum_psi You only feel like tanks in 6v6 were the most opressive because they are in the front with 2 shields not dying What really was Opressive is Bap sustaining those 2 tanks and if they would have died, whoops immortality field, not to mention Orisa doesnt even have a shield anymore And I get they feel "Opressive" but i rather have 2 Weaker tanks that i as a DPS can 1v1 instead of 1 800HP Raid Boss Tank that is legit unkillable in a 1v1 scenario
@@pippo17173 They said they wanted to adress CC and Survivability of Tanks in the 6v6 Tests and thats honestly all i needed to hear, they probably wont get it right instantly, but just seeing the Game i loved return with 2-2-2 (or even Open Q Min 1 Max 3) just makes me happy I cant tell you how fucking horrible 5v5 feels to me, especially as OW1 GM Tank Main
Im a new ow2 player. Im 100% sure Im quitting once comp goes to 6v6. Ots already annoying as hell to play against 5v5 sustain comps dont wanna play a game where Im shooting shields for a majority of the game
Overwatch started falling off when they began limiting player choice. First, they limited team comps with role queue, instead of finding a way to properly balance the heroes. Then - because of the wait times associated with role queue - they switched to 5v5, which only further limited the choices players have for team comps. They took the easy way out, and the game suffered for it.
6v6 is simply not better. 6v6 means double shield comes back, and that’s just objectively bad It means getting stuck in chokes far more often with stalemates going on for ages Each kill is less impactful, and it’s harder to make solo carry plays. The only upside is tank combos, but that simply doesn’t outweigh the major issues it has. And all the new tanks are NOT designed for 6v6, simply lowering their health does not make them balanced at all, and this is saying you could have THREE tanks, that’s absurd People are too obsessed with nostalgia, and too obsessed with looking for a reason to hate OW2 blindly, they don’t think about WHY 6v6 was worse
@@ciach0_ no it can’t be fixed. Making the shields have like no health defeats the point of them and makes them useless when there’s only 1 shield tank It’s simply a thing that will always be unfun and the game is far better without it existing, doesn’t matter what compromises you make, it’s ALWAYS gonna be better without it entirely
We now have like 40 heroes, that's significantly more than in Overwatch 1. I think we shouldn't actively avoid it on the principle of "It simply isn't better" and actually try, use all these new heroes and their new/updated kits to tackle these situations. Bastion can just carpet bomb the double shielders for instance, and he is mobile so he can avoid damage while doing dps to their shields, or just melt them when they turn away. Other characters, etc... let's actually try, we're fans of a hero shooter focused around teamplay. Let's really use these heroes and really play around ours and the enemy team
@@jamesperrott1Bastion and other characters have updated movesets that allow them to fight back against double shield, while we get 2 tanks back double shield could, COULD be less dominant. If tanks are having their stats reduced for 6v6 all you need to do is git gud and use this massive roster like someone with a brain
Season 16 they remove the 2 from Overwatch 2 😂
They unironically need to do that
If you download it from Xbox game pass the icon on desktop just says overwatch XD
Season 17 they bring Jeff and Geoff back
I genuinely hope that they do
😂😂😂😂
Tank mains can finally breathe for once without having to clench their buttcheeks for the entire game knowing the entire game rests on their ability to stay alive.
Fr tho! Everytime a new game starts my cheeks preclench
Lol will you come play with me? Because it generally feels like the entire game rests on MY ability to keep the brainless tank alive. 😂 (I'm kidding. Mostly.)
@@thezombiesatemyhomework7412 aren't you two both tank players lol are you gonna play openqueue
@@megamecha100 They said "keep the tank alive" lol so a Support and a Tank i'd say if anything.
@@DxXNA oh it didn't even occur to me that it was a third person commenting
Season 14- Bring back 6v6
Season 15- "We brought back loot boxes!"
Season 16- Remove the 2 from Overwatch
Season 17- Fuck up
Season 18 - Kiriko mythic skim
6v6 tradh
@@bornsniper9531Not according to Blizzard. In Overwatch 1, they did try various numbers of players on each team and decided 6v6 was best. Now, while they have gone to 5v5 evidently they can see that 6v6 could work and isn't "trash" otherwise they wouldn't offer this opportunity for players to show what we want. You know you can analyze the actual people/company you're talking about and not just say stuff that obviously isn't true right?
Season 1000 - Brig Skin😊
Season 19 dps dpomfist!!!! (too long from now)
@@ghoulishgoober3122 no they are only offering it bc people love to cry
Min 1, Max 3... So basically the first test will be the new 'GOATS' comp with 3 tanks, 2 healers and 1 DPS.
Reinhardt, Rammatra, Sigma
Brigitte and Juno
And slap any ranged DPS behind them
Yeah that sounds SO fun to play against doesn’t it
Unlikely. The norm back in the day was 6 DPS or 5-DPS-1-Mercy on both teams. The average game in that mode will probably be 3-DPS-2-supports-1-tank. That is a huge improvement over the old open queue problem of your team having 0 of a role and the enemy winning in spawn from having 1 of each role to properly play the game. You also get to keep open queue queue times without completely destroying the match quality improvements that came with role queue. And if you think the person playing solo tank is throwing, you have no excuse for not swapping tank yourself mid-match. Win-win-win.
@@Dmanbradley that was never norm past 2016 lol, even in quickplay people would have at least 1 tank and 2 supports, or just play goats because people like winning.
@@jamesperrott1 This was my thinking right off the bat, though I'm expecting D.Va, Zarya and Zen instead of Ram, Sig and Brig
@@Dmanbradley I think there will be a discrepancy between what we'll see from the highest tier and everyone else. While it's true that most of OW1's life featured mostly DPS on both teams, GOATS cropped up in the Open Queue format and didn't stop until Role Queue was added. I think GOATS Will come back for organized teams and most of everyone else will play Deatmatch except you can't shoot 5 players.
Blizzard could not live with their own failure…
Where did that bring them back to 6v6
@@garfield2891I will shred this format down to its last atom and then with the data you collected for me build a new one
Blizzard to 6v6 : perhaps I treated you too harshly
Blizzard to 6v6: I am going to grape you!
@@GgSanitya grateful player base
I'm a support main. The really ironic thing about them trying to justify 5v5 with queue times is that in Ovw1 I would play tank fairly regularly but in 5v5 i never play tank anymore. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I played tank very little in overwatch 2 mainly at the launch nowadays I never touch tank
Don't like the responsibility?
(D.va main) I full quit the game because I liked to 3rd dps and dive the back line. My healer friends could support me doing this so it worked well, but 5v5 just made every game feel like shield meta. Same routes same fights. I think I played more dps in the first 3 seasons than I did in the 3 years before that (excluding arcade game modes)
Same here, the reason why I don't play main tank in ow1 is the reason why i don't tank at all in ow2
I loved playing main tank in OW1, I pretty much never play tank anymore in OW2. Theres something bout how 2 tanks feel thats just not the same anymore
This is Bliz's "break glass in case on emergency" move because Marvel Rivals is coming out.
citation needed
In december too :(
I wouldn't say its happening because of marvel rivals, if they're taking action, it's more likely that they're doing it because of deadlock.
Imo marvel rivals is not gonna last very long
@@SfyrZa Marvel Rivals is going to be way bigger than Deadlock. If anything Deadlock won't last long.
Its not gonna work if they don't actually listen to the fans and nerf the characters that cause the 6v6 problems to begin with.
Just give me back OW1 and they can keep OW2.
Nah :)
@@SirenRyanyeah, just erase the 60 bucks spent on the first game. It would have been nice to not be forced into their microtransaction simulator and just play the original overwatch
@@ghoulishgoober3122 if they brought back Overwatch the day the shutdown the old servers and brought up Overwatch 2, I'd go right back to playing it again.
No! RIP shield comp, bunker comp, mandatory synergies forever!
@@ghoulishgoober3122all the micro transactions are cosmetic? Just don’t buy them that’s what I do
Aaaand we've come full circle, they totally replaced the monetization scheme and that's the only meaningful difference between OW1 and OW2 now
Haven't played for maybe a year... this sounds like it'd be worth checking out. I usually play tank and it gets kinda frustrating getting focused all the time.
It’s not going to be, it’s gonna be shit. Coming from someone who’s actively played both OW1 and OW2, nothing they do can fix the mess they’ve made. I’m serious about it, don’t come back.
A step in the right direction. But really they should just release overwatch 1 and let us have the game we paid for.
It should be a crime to steal a game from consumers like that. Ppl paid money for the rights to ow1 it should be unlawful to remove access from players. They wouldn't be forced to keep servers up but they should allow players to host their own. Fkn scam
They better test this out properly. Give it a fair shot. Test, evaluate, test, evaluate again, test, etc. If it's just a one shot and done, it'll be the most dishonest way possible to quell the debate.
The thing is though, they could do all that and determine 5v5 is vetter and you still wouldn't accept it because no amount of test results would make you change your mind.
@@PaulStargasm I do think 6v6 would be better but not with the current iteration of the game, some tanks are gonna need big reworks because who's gonna wanna play into smth like orisa jq
@@PaulStargasm That's very presumptuous of you. All I want them to test it out honestly and fairly. If 5v5 is determined to be better, then that's fine by me. But there's really only one way of finding that out.
I will caveat this by saying, as 5v5 is *today*, with the specific problems it has now, I fall on the side of it not being better than OW1 was as an example. Nor do I find the game state to be better than even the 6v6 community code, which by itself suffers from a ton of limitations as a result of being part of the Workshop, but I still personally enjoy that experience more than the core game (as it exists today).
That is to say, they could (although I doubt it) find through these tests ways to address the current shortfalls of 5v5. Again, the only way to know is to test. What remains clear in my opinion is that the games current trajectory is not promising. Something has to change, be that the format or finding ways of adding greater flexibility (akin to this Kingmaker idea, possibly). Balancing 5v5 in a way where you don't have raidbosses running around the map while also not making tanks entirely useless has proven to be extremely challenging, to say the least.
Mind you, these problems were extremely predictable from the very beginning and they ran head first into making this change anyways. Years later, they've not yet found an answer. Make of that what you will.
@@lunatuna6935 The 6v6 community code actually does make some pretty neat adaptions to the tanks that work quite well in spite of the obvious limitations of the mode being balanced and made in the Workshop mode.
To test it properly they have to revert the projectile size increases and health changes. Both of those were ill advised for 5v5 but also damage 6v6 even more. The extra hp contributes to stale-matey comps and sustain while the bullet sizes contribute to spam and decrease skill expression. If they don’t change those back for 6v6 they are purposely throwing.
im sorry but if you think ow2 is gonna cook just bc 6v6 is back you're delusional, they're gonna be just as incompetent as they've been the last 13 seasons
So much cope with the ppl who think THIS (b)Lizard can make the game better if they just go to 6v6.
Its clear they aren't the great Blizzard that it once was. This is just a corp wearing blizzs skin after they choked it out
seriously Kingmaker sounds just like Clash, something to get people excited for future content but when it actually releases it's going to be cancer to actually play and people will hate it
they're only brining 6v6 back to try and get more people playing, but its going to go horrible - 1. queue times will suck and 2. these new rules are garbage. Just make the game 7v7, 2 tanks 3 dps and 2 support. You get the benefit of faster queues while also getting benefit of 2 tanks who actually main tank.
so instead of being called out to swap to another hero you're gonna get called out to play another role 😂 did we not learn anything from the priority pass - pressuring people into playing something else only results in worse games.
the idea of dps being able to solo a tank is ridiculous, how tf does he like the idea of that?????
Marvel Rivals got them SHOOKETH
Is that the fake Overwatch clone?
@@Simi1024 the fake clone that is better at being overwatch than overwatch 2 is
@@delluminatis How? It doesn't even have Junkrat 😂.
Let’s see the player counts of both games before we start glazing. Both companies are known for making slop
I can deal with 3 healers or 3 DPS but not 3 tanks, even if they're nerfed specifically for that mode
I could see a world where both 6v6 and 5v5 exist if you look at other games like WoW.
6v6 could be “Overwatch Classic”.
And 5v5 could be “Overwatch 2” with builds like Junkenstein’s Lab.
Games are always polarizing like this. You have folks who don’t want much of anything to change despite some new maps/heroes, and are turned off by change. Then, you have others who want change and their beloved game to evolve with wacky abilities and new ways to play and experience it.
Time will tell ❤
#HOPIUM
If it's a single quick play hacked and they don't test further I'm jist deadass quitting
Quit the game long ago. It’s slop.
I uninstalled until they rework Genji/Moira. Game is dogSHIT
@@gorillagroddgaming definitely a flawed game, i see a path for it to get better, which is why i still play. if you dont play and hate it, why are you still watching content creators?
Did you watch the video? 8:08
@@lordofallthings404 Because every once in a blue moon Sty remembers he's not an OW content creator but a variety creator
6v6 adds so much strategy to the game,
Not just in team comps but also in how matches get played out
In overwatch, I was one of the tanks. In overwatch 2, I was one of the tanks that blizzard decided they didn't want queuing for tank anymore. I won't queue for a role where I don't have someone else as a teammate to help me. There isn't any reason for 1 person to be doing two people's jobs
with half the cooldowns and 30% less stats no less.
Me too. I was a huge tank fan but never again as soon as OW2 released
been saying it for years
ow doesnt work w only one tank
doesnt matter how raidboss-gigabuffed they are
5v5 tank is the antithesis of my playstyle. I love enabling team members, i dont wanna be the play maker.
So I am a bit glad I don't need to lock in support or Mei to get scratch my supportive playstyle itch.
You have 4 teammates helping you numbnuts. Seems to me more like you need a crutch, not help 😂
They have to replace QP entirely with these test modes or there won't be enough data and feedback to go on. Hopefully the streamers push it hard enough to make an impact.
The point in not replacing quickplay entirely is for that very reason.... what good would the data be if you forced people into something? Were by not forcing them you can gauged if they even A. care about the feature or B. enjoyed the feature.
If you can see that Player A plays about the same, tries out 6v6, and plays it instead of 5v5 but doesn't really increase play time we can see they like it or are at least interested.
If you can see that Player B plays about more then before, tries out 6v6, and plays it instead of 5v5 we can see the mode is very interesting to them and increased their playtime.
If you can see that Player C hasn't played the game in some time and has now become active we can consider them a returning player and if they play 6v6 and keep playing it we can see that they found interest in 6v6 and will return to the game for it.
If you can see that Player D hasn't played the game in some time and has now become active we can consider them a returning player and if they play 6v6, but they give up playing after a day or 2 we can see the change wasn't enough to retain them so they're simply not interested.
If you can see that Player E plays about the same, tries out 6v6, but then goes back to 5v5 we can see that this player gave it a shot but was not interested.
If you can see that Player F plays about the same and never even tried 6v6 then they either live under a rock or had no interest in 6v6 to begin with so clearly they aren't missing 6v6.
Playing tank in low ranks is sad, game starts Tank gets a pick and rushes in, no one follows and dies, tank gets blamed on for throwing 🤦🏻♂️
Does no one remember the ten minute queue times for a 6v6 game 😢
Well it won’t be that bad because it’s gonna be open Que.
Basically it’s gonna keep Que times shorter because people can have either 3 DPS and that’s it. Sooo we can have MORE customization to 6v6
They're the same as they where back in ow1 support queue is longer it's like 10 minutes, and dps queue is like 1 minute shorter and tank is basically the same
@@Bubbagaming90000 with Open Que, the time will actually drop drastically. Open Que times right now are insanely faster than role Que. so with open Que, and with people playing 6v6, these times will be way faster.
I get 11 minute queues as a support right now in 5v5..
I have support queues in low masters that can take over 10 minutes right now what are you talking about?
They really just made OW1 with a battle pass. 😐
They went free to play as it's now the standard for AAA live service games.
Yeah, took pretty damn long for them to get back to almost OW1, but still way shittier because of BP. RIPpered from birth.
Innovation? Bringing back a feature they cut for the purpose of innovation?
You've gotta be joking.
I think he's talking about the different versions of role queue and "king maker"
Yeah if they had 0 “innovation” it would literally just be normal 6v6 with no balance changes. There’s more to it here.
my one concern is if they rebalance tank back for 6v6, and since tank is he least popular, therell often be a poor chap solo tanking as a gimp tank and wont be able to switch due to min 1
It took the threat from competition like Marvel Rivals for Blizzard to listen.
I'm done man... old and bitter. 10 long years of making OW worse every patch - NOW they want to start making it good? Whatever.
Marvel Rivals 6th of december. I'm moving on.
i dont care anymore. give me junkensteins lab as a permanent game mode. with all heroes added, hero bans, and map voting. i am addicted to the cards.
Fr I love the mode 😂
Quickplay can honestly be made 100x better with these changes.
- Implement the 2 Role Limit with a preferred role starting pick. Once in the game you can move around as desired / available. (or not if we go 6v6).
- Any player vs Any player so the game just looks for 2 tanks, 4 supports, 4 dps. ( or 4 x 4 x 4 if its 6v6).
- Instead of going straight into a game you go into a lobby with the other 9 players (or 11 if we move to 6v6).
- You'll have 30 seconds before a match begins.
- You'll be given 2 random games modes with random map on each and as well as the previous mode (if a match already occurred).
- After each match the teams will be adjusted swapping players around (if applicable can't with a full team for instance).
- Remove leaver bans as now the matches are quick and once a new player is found the lobby will likely keep going for some time until the next person leaves.
- Allow the ability to queue Quickplay while in queue for Competitive so you have something to play while you wait. This can also be a special competitive only quickplay queue even with role restrictions removed. Similar to how there's an unranked queue and competitive queue deathmatch lobby.
Boom now you have faster quickplay queues, map voting, and a way to play with the same people over and over. If you don't like the lobby back out and find a new one.
It'll be funny if they end up going this route some day but it takes 10-20 years to do it.
I really hope we get 6v6 back, I honestly really have not enjoyed 5v5 these last few months! Even if they just make 5v5 changes, anything is better than the current state of the game.
6v6 is cool, but it will never be like it was. The new heroes, IMO are garbage, they trying to do everything. Everyone has movement, heals, shields, damage.
Imagine Rein players watching 4 players stood up immediately right after shatter just because Kiriko pressed E
Dont forget the insane buffs and debuffs that are paired with their ults.
@@mikelgrenlou558 did you forget they nerfed it in season 11 and kiri can't cleanse knockdowns?
@@ciach0_ Wow, didn't know tbh
everyone play the 6v6 test. we need to save our baby
Min 1 Max 3 will be stupid and hated as it will always be 3 dps so people will still moan there is only 1 tank. 6:49
The purpose of it is to gauge how many 6v6 tank players there are. They want to avoid long queue times because of a lack of tank players.
It will always be 3 dps but the optimum comp will always be 3 tanks so yeah, it's gonna be misery especially when the enemy team is playing the ideal comp.
Ayo that slam at 0:31 was dirty
Same thing I said shit was perfectly executed 😂
Don't do that... Don't give me hope
Nope it’s coming… it’s actually coming. And also with OTHER ways to test out 6v6… this is CRAZY!
Same!!!!
@@Weightsss I mean more like don't bring it for a temporary amount of time just to snatch it away again 😭
@@H1storix 😂😂😂😂 I feel you.
Is 6v6 permanently coming back back in the game ? @@Weightsss
Should 6v6 actually return, it's about time. Maybe now the 5v5 crowd will finally shut up
It's so nice to see you excited for OW again. You've been missed :)
king maker sounds very interesting, im looking forward to that one.
random idea that probably wouldnt work out: when ur the lone king u get to pick passives like in the junkenstein mode lol
The kingmaker mode seems impossible to balance, people are also going to fight over who gets the king bonus, or blame the king when they lose.
Kingmaker mode sounds fun. I am for testing different formats. Having a 5v5 and 6v6 format sounds fine to me if it wont explode que times and they can make them each relatively balanced.
I think they should make the game back into 6v6 but put tanks into two category: Frontline and Diver. You would need to have one of each. Frontline tanks would be Mauga, Orisa, Ramattra, Reinhardt, Sigma and Zarya. Divers would be D.Va, Doomfist, Junker Queen, Roadhog, Winston and Wrecking Ball. At least Zarya and Winston would need to be reworked into some extent to fit into their roles better. Same for other possible outliers as well ofc.
This would fix the annoying double barrier meta we used to have back in the day when everyone hated it.
Main and off-tank makes more sense
Splitting roles even more won't work unfortunately, as it'll make queues bad
Simple as that
Im pretty confident that the 6v6 gameplay will be as good as 5v5, but i dont really see the queue times issue being fixed, I hope that somehow people actually want to play tank for more than a few games after it comes out.
I think we passed the point where the 5v5 vs 6v6 debate made any sense a long time ago. The game has been tuned towards 5v5 and anti-team mechanics for so long that introducing another tank isn't going to solve some fundamental problem with team structure. At this point the design issues are at a higher level. I think they're closer to viably removing roles entirely than they are to making a meaningful change with a 6v6 structure.
Too late Marvel Rivals is on the way in December LMFAO.
Only happening because marvel rivals coming out during the exact same time…. Sad honestly
yeah... why have we not had this happen until marvel rivals is coming out... hmm
rivals is not a good game
Doomfist returns as a dps?
@@rlo2367 i wish imagine they say that i will be so happy
@@gamerbeast3616 you should try it, you'll have a blast
I just hope when they try to balance tanks they don't do universal changes and instead opt for character by character changes. Like, reducing 100 HP from Orisa is a lot different than 100 HP from Doomfist and Junker Queen.
Imagine a world where ow went free to play in 2019 instead of going To ow 2 we still get an archive mission every year. Their would be 3 more characters and the bp could have lootboxes of old skins
We finally bugged them enough to bring back 6v6 🙏🙏😭
Silly Blizzard, they missed the opportunity to sell "Overwatch Classic: Retold 1.0" for $60 with 6v6 and only the heroes available before Briggitte
They dont want to have both modes available because we all know 80%+ will be on 6v6
did you watch the video? the blog post said that they're considering having both formats
@ciach0_ actually meant to write "didn't"
Ill leave it unedited so your comment makes sense
I think the Min-1-Max-3 system sounds great. Seems like a good mix of Role and Open queues.
I play so much less tank now that there’s only one. I feel like it’s so much harder to play tank when all of the pressure is on you and your choice. If I was able to rely on another tank, I’d feel more comfortable with my choices and not railroaded into choosing meta picks only.
As someone who quit the moment they dropped 6v6, this would bring me back
Don't
Dont.
The team is still incompetent and cant even get patcj notes right
OW 2016-2022: "You couldn't live with your own failure. And where did that lead you? ....Back to me."
I also stopped playing after OW2 released, although that was mostly because they stopped making the heroes free for everyone on release. Didn't like the idea of my team not having the exact same hero options as the enemy team.
King Maker is a similar idea I had put in a KarQ Hot Take video but with 6v6 in mind.
Orisa/Mauga combo will be quite devastating against most teams.
6:05 Soldier/Reaper goats incoming, calling it now.
Ow wasn’t meant to be a 5v5 tactical shooter, it was meant to be a fast paced 6v6 hero shooter.
The game is more fast paced now then it was in 6v6
Ive stopped playing overwatch 2 for a couple months now, very curious to see how this will play out defenitely will play and test the 6v6 modes
I feel like, after 13 seasons of people not enjoying 5v5, they need to accept that it didn't work out and stop trying to think of cute ways to spice up 5v5 to get people to warm up to it again.
It’s been years since I’ve been this excited for a Sty video ❤️
Are they copying Deadlock? I dont care about Overwatch anymore. Im so sick of their shop, fomo tactics and product placements
As someone who dropped the game when they got rid of 6v6 I may actually pick the game back up if they bring it back
They should just make it optional for people who like 5v5 and 6v6, like a separate option for 6v6 in competitive and quick play, or all modes and keep 5v5 as well, and if they’re nerfing tanks for 6v6 they can probably put those changes in the 6v6 version, like how total mayhem has changes on the characters and dosent effect the other modes.
get ready to hear “CAN WE GET A SHIELD?!” every game.
this is gonna be a mess unless they completely rework the health values for open queue tanks, because right now characters like ball and roadhog are extremely strong in that mode & characters like zarya and JQ are useless because their health pools are just way too low.
I really miss 6v6 and I miss the Experimental mode. That was fun.
is it sad that i dont care anymore? i still like watching your vids sty, but like fuck the monetization, and honestly i dont even care about 6v6 anymore, i fell out of love with overwatch
Same I just wanna see the game rot and burn at this point especially since gta 6 dropping in a year this is overwatch last year alive
@@PainxSorrow I get the sentiment, but as someone who loved OW1 and hates OW2 (not even because of monetization, but because of 5v5) i would encourage you to atleast give 6v6 a shot
Yes they did basically everything wrong and ruined a great game, but theres no reason to hate now when they are actually listening for once
I for one will play the shit out of 6v6 Open Q and 2-2-2 i want it back as main mode so badly
Why on earth would I ever buy a skin, when tanking in 5v5 means I can't play a given tank hero for more than a minute or two max. I certainly will never buy more than 1 skin at current prices, so I don't buy anything at all.
This is the best news for the game I've heard in a looong time. I'm actually starting to agree with the decision to ditch PVE and OWL, if it means they can keep the core game interesting and do more experiments like this. Don't get me wrong they still fucked up big time with both of those and I hope they take the RIOT Arcane route and get an animated series going because the lore of this game is awesome and it'd be a real shame if all of it went to waste. Min 1 Max 3 and the kingmaker modes actually sound like great potential solutions to the 5v5 vs 6v6 problem, I think the big question will be what modes will be incorporated into ranked once these tests are finished. I think especially the players who played through the drought years of OW1 will realize how massive these updates are for the game. I just hope they make the most out of this original IP in the future and not use it completely for a cash grab like they've been doing. That's why I don't want to play Marvel Rivals, it just feels like another milking of the Marvel IP.
6x6 will only work if they make a REWORK in Sigma and Ramattra, as was done in Orisa.
TANKS with SHIELDS cannot fire long distances!!!
Season 14: The return of double shield 🛡
Thank God!
Good on the team for doing this and for all that is good and pure, DO NOT STOP HERE!
So bit worrying came back at hearing 6v6 might come back. But hearing no balance change and if I heard it right you could have 3 tanks? Sure hope I miss heard that they are to strong right now
Tanks won't be the same in 6v6 obviously
all they gotta do now is cut the prices and maybe i'll buy a skin, AUD$60 for a mythic skin is ridiculous.
6 vs 6 is the core design of OW, removing 1 player from each team was a stupid mistake.
What we have since OW2 released was re-design and re-balance process of that stupid move.
They should bring back LFG is this what they're doing. You could mandatory lock players into a role in LFG, forcing 2-2-2, and that's what I used to do before RQ was added. 9/10 times you'd play against other 2-2-2 6 stacks.
They said they wont add it back because it was too hard to moderate but I'm calling bs on that. Scroll through the custom games browser and you'll see loads of game breaking the rules, but they're ok with that but not LFG? Nah.
forget the "test" just run a season of 5v5 and 6v6 ranked in parallel and let the ppl choose
The switch to 5v5 was the main reason I stopped playing when 2 came out. I loved classic Overwatch despite its flaws. 5v5 was just too different. Pls Blizzard.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Min one max 3 never seen before?! Sombra goats never existed? WHAT?!
The first game mode makes me think we could revive GOATS with the min 1 max 3. I'll play the modes for a bit but I'm expecting little. The bar is on the floor and if it still disappoints me then I'll fully quit.
there still needs to be at least 1 dps, also no brig stun
Blizzard knows Marvel Rivals is coming out and they have 6v6. That’s is the only way they’ll have a chance to compete.
I'm dreading the queue times, the grass is not always greener on the other side...
I'm so excited about these new modes. 6v6 again but also new ways to form your team. I am so done with content revolving around cosmetics. Season 14 is gonna cook!!
Whether it's Overwatch or WoW or even Diablo, Blizzard is finally being far more receptive to players/customers then they have ever been in the past. It's not perfect, but it's far better.
They should Also let you do prefered role tho, just to assure that at lest 1 player wanted to play each role, só no One is actually forced INTO a role they don't want
with the aggresive monetization that exists in the game, personally, nothing will bring me back at this point
if they do min1 max3, they need to cut tank survivability by 50% and damage by 50%. no way that will be playable otherwise.
this will be open queue, so tanks health will be reduced by 150
I sincerely hope not. Going back to 6v6 just means a massive nerf to tanks, and going back to them being effectively just fat DPS. Honestly, if this actually goes through, then I think I'm done with Overwarch pemanently.
I fear the day Mauga, roadhog and reaper becomes a possible comp.
6v6 3 max per role mauga, roadhog, d.va, reaper, bastion, bap. Try playing winton into that one.
So they are trying to catch up with Marvel Rivals which hasn’t been released yet? What’s next? something requested for years, like support for Macs?
YES THIS IS WHAT THE GAME NEEDS
NO MORE COUNTERSWAPPING PERMANENTLY
NO MORE RAID BOSS TANKS THAT ARE UNKILLABLE
NO MORE LOSING BECAUSE 1 TEAMMATE ISNT DOING THEIR JOB
AND WE GET DUO BACK, BLIZZARD PLEASE KEEP IT
That is only possible if they nerf the characters that cause the problems. Despite enjoying 6v6 in its last years, I can tell certain characters are causing the big problems but it was only noticable if your a top rank player.
Tank are still going to be the most oppressive, even in 6v6, kek.
@@quantum_psinot if they take the tank passives away
@@quantum_psi You only feel like tanks in 6v6 were the most opressive because they are in the front with 2 shields not dying
What really was Opressive is Bap sustaining those 2 tanks and if they would have died, whoops immortality field, not to mention Orisa doesnt even have a shield anymore
And I get they feel "Opressive" but i rather have 2 Weaker tanks that i as a DPS can 1v1 instead of 1 800HP Raid Boss Tank that is legit unkillable in a 1v1 scenario
@@pippo17173 They said they wanted to adress CC and Survivability of Tanks in the 6v6 Tests and thats honestly all i needed to hear, they probably wont get it right instantly, but just seeing the Game i loved return with 2-2-2 (or even Open Q Min 1 Max 3) just makes me happy
I cant tell you how fucking horrible 5v5 feels to me, especially as OW1 GM Tank Main
As long as they didn't allow double Sheilds and remove zaryas double bubble
6v6 as role queue and kingmaker 5v5 instead of open queue sounds dopaaaaa
Yey, I think some of my friends are coming back just for this testing, I don't have to play alone anymore haha keen for 6v6 return!
Im a new ow2 player. Im 100% sure Im quitting once comp goes to 6v6. Ots already annoying as hell to play against 5v5 sustain comps dont wanna play a game where Im shooting shields for a majority of the game
Yes!!! Hog off tank roaming around the map one shotting squishys 😂
Overwatch started falling off when they began limiting player choice. First, they limited team comps with role queue, instead of finding a way to properly balance the heroes. Then - because of the wait times associated with role queue - they switched to 5v5, which only further limited the choices players have for team comps.
They took the easy way out, and the game suffered for it.
6v6 is simply not better.
6v6 means double shield comes back, and that’s just objectively bad
It means getting stuck in chokes far more often with stalemates going on for ages
Each kill is less impactful, and it’s harder to make solo carry plays.
The only upside is tank combos, but that simply doesn’t outweigh the major issues it has. And all the new tanks are NOT designed for 6v6, simply lowering their health does not make them balanced at all, and this is saying you could have THREE tanks, that’s absurd
People are too obsessed with nostalgia, and too obsessed with looking for a reason to hate OW2 blindly, they don’t think about WHY 6v6 was worse
double shield can be fixed with balance and reworks, Rivals has more than 1 shield tank and it still works
@@ciach0_ no it can’t be fixed. Making the shields have like no health defeats the point of them and makes them useless when there’s only 1 shield tank
It’s simply a thing that will always be unfun and the game is far better without it existing, doesn’t matter what compromises you make, it’s ALWAYS gonna be better without it entirely
We now have like 40 heroes, that's significantly more than in Overwatch 1. I think we shouldn't actively avoid it on the principle of "It simply isn't better" and actually try, use all these new heroes and their new/updated kits to tackle these situations. Bastion can just carpet bomb the double shielders for instance, and he is mobile so he can avoid damage while doing dps to their shields, or just melt them when they turn away. Other characters, etc... let's actually try, we're fans of a hero shooter focused around teamplay. Let's really use these heroes and really play around ours and the enemy team
@@ghoulishgoober3122 you literally just explained why it would be bad
@@jamesperrott1Bastion and other characters have updated movesets that allow them to fight back against double shield, while we get 2 tanks back double shield could, COULD be less dominant.
If tanks are having their stats reduced for 6v6 all you need to do is git gud and use this massive roster like someone with a brain
Hope the queue times aren't bad
Kingmaker is entirely out of the players control though no? it depends on someone else NOT picking the role