Ilford MG Art 300 Fibre Paper. My first try...
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
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ABOUT THIS VIDEO
I have always been a Resin Paper Printer. Mainly due to cost and also the thought of not having the right gear to finish a print on this paper, however, after many comments and private messages telling me I should try Ilford MG ART 300 Fibre (Or is it Fiber?) Paper I thought I would grab the bull by the horns and give it a lash.
This is my first try and experience with printing fibre paper.
I shall be making a full blog post on this on my Patreon Page for all to read.
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Thanks for the ironing trick!
Great vid. Very well filmed and informative. I have used Ilford Multigrade FB paper.For archival i also used Selenium Toner but used Iford Archive process. Hypam 1+4 30 seconds fix....Washaid then wash. To flatten them....when dry i used to put them in various pages of a book or books and then put a concrete block on it for a few days....that flattened them !!!! Andrew a Press Photographer....35 yrs
Using a white card for dodging/burning makes it easier since you can see the projected image on the card and thus locate the areas that requires attention.
I printed with a ton of Ilford Fiber Glassy paper in college and really loved it. My impression was always that the fiber paper had a bit better blacks and was worth the effort for photos that I really cared about. Now talking about the long term effects of not properly fixing, it might not be something that you see in a year, or maybe in two years. But I know that looking at the 80-year-old photos on the wall in different parts of the University, one could see some prints that weren't holding up as well as others. So my guess is that if you don't fix it or wash it for the required times that you are really limiting the life of the print before it starts to degrade.
That's what I'm thinking. Long term. My great grandkids be like "idiot, didn't wash it properly!"
One thing I learned from 30 years of creative and commercial photography….always follow the direction of the “Yellow Father” in other words the Kodak data sheet or Ilford in this case. An unwashed fiber print, even RC will start to stain and even smell ugly. If stacked with clean prints it will contaminate them. The washing aids save water and time.
Once you go fiber, it's hard to back to RC.. at least in my situation :)
Super-useful. Thanks again.
Brilliant work as usual ! Love the washing system !!!
Once again a great demonstration! I like your teaching lessons very much. Thx for sharing.
Thank you for the clear video! A realy good idea about the FB paper, no body did explain as you did,,, bringing the feel and look of the paper.
Glad it was helpful!
Thankyou Roger for a very interesting video and well done on trying fibre paper.👍
art 300 is a beautiful paper to work with
Awesome video. Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. Subscribed!
Great video Roger lovely print on RC or fibre paper
I recommend pre-soaking the paper in distilled water before you start the dev process, cuts washing down and makes the paper lay much more flat. Fiber paper gives your images what most describe as "depth" and I would concur, however fiber paper is better suited for collection, archival and seriouse prints. Casual darkroom hijinks are best served by RC paper, keep up the good work!!
Yeah it is for special moments. Like bringing out your best dinner plates for guests. So you mean expose the paper to the neg on the enlarger, then soak before you put in the develop tray?
Yes, the idea is to let the fibers absorb clean water first. The long wash times are to rinse all the chemicals from the paper not the emulsion, I picked up the technique from an old timer I met at a camera shop. My process is as follows: expose, pre-soak, dev, stop, fix, rinse 1 min, hypo clear 2 min, final wash 10 min, dry. It's a real bitch to print fiber properly but it has its perks. Thanks!
You deserve a UA-cam professor title. Great video demonstration. You are upbeat and your experiments and all around production is motivating.
Thank you
Thanks Michael. Not sure Prof. Roger will sound too good though lol
If you have trouble figuring out the emulsion side of fiber paper, it's especially tough with matte, lightly wet the tip of your finger and the very edge of the emulsion side will feel sticky.
Edit: Also bubbles in the stop usually means the stop is mixed too strong.
I finally have a reason to buy an iron! Thanks, the dry mounting press is expensive for just flattening prints
Good on you building your own washer set-up - Getting ready to jump back into darkroom work and build my darkroom again. Will also be making my own washer as the commercial ones are insane on their cost for what they are made of.
Precious video, good lesson and many tips. Yo've got my subscription !
Regards from Poland !
I love the ART 300 paper! If you dry fiber prints face down on fiberglass window screen, they don’t curl as much as if you hang them. I usually don’t flatten my prints too much, and keep them in a box and the curl isn’t bad. I built myself a drying rack that can do 14 8x10 prints for about $10.
Your first testprint is just stunning. i really like your photography. thank you for your content
EDIT: Your final print is even more stunning. sick!
Thank you
Cracking video again Roger.....and a great solution to drying as proper fb print dryers are hard to come by!
Amazing
One thing I do is hang prints back to back with clips on all four corners. They dry less curly that way although still need flattening.
I shall remember that next time Anthony 😊
Hi, just this few words to say a big thank you to you... I've found your channel with a bit of luck, and i must say it's the best for film related contents i ever watched on UA-cam.
I love the way you take us with you in your journey, from shoot to the wall, in a very teaching way. I'm a self made photographer, and i learn all days long from others, but good film and darkroom related contents are rare nowadays as most UA-camrs are concentrating on technicals things or gear.
Another things i loved, is you're not shooting with expensive gears like a hassy or a leica.
To be honest i've watched all your channel contents in maybe 2 or 3 days... and now I'm waiting for your next video with a lot of impatience
So keep going, and i hope someday i could come to the isle of wight, or you could come to brittany, where i live and maybe meeting you and paying you a pint ;)
best regards from a froggy
Thanks Greg. Working on new videos so keep a look out. Like you I learned self taught and can't afford all the expensive gear so get by like most of us. "Froggy" 😂
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss i'm a suscriber now and i clicked the bell waiting for it to ring . I'm even thinking to be part of your patreon members because I know the cost that can have a darkroom and all related products
Welcome to Roger!
You made an interesting video again. I'd rather use "FORTE FB" paper a
enlarge. I have a chrome flat drying machine.
The stand used for ironing is also a good solution.
Best regards Tamás
Always enjoy your vids Roger. I dry my FB in a water colour sketch book, after a stint of being stuck to my tiled wall to dry. I can tell when it's ready to go in to the book as it starts to curl off the tiles. Apart from the feeling of holding the FB in your hand I don't think there is enough advantage over RC, especially when mounted. But it's certainly fun to have alternatives. PS I love the idea of drying with an iron, but I am afraid my wife would throw a basket of clothes at me while I'm at it....
I nearly got the t shits and jeans too Matt! Thanks for the input.
Crackin results m8 :-)
Also if you’re wondering which side of fiber paper has the emulsion, it’s easy, the side that curls UP is the emulsion side
That ironing trick is great. Those drying presses are so expensive.
Roger, the extra screen showing the area that you were dodging or burning was very helpful. As regards washing times, you can get a product from Fotospeed called "residual hypo tester" that tells you whether there is any fixer left in the paper. Haven't used it myself yet but saw it demonstrated by another UA-camr.
That's interesting, thanks.
This video took me back to when we had an embarrassment of available fiber papers. There were so many you could choose your paper for nuances! Agfa Brovira, Ektalure, many Ilford types and so many more from around the world. They cost more to use so I worked up my prints using resin papers and made my final on fiber. I correlated exposure and contrast by previous tests. That first print passed the selenium test for residual fixer so, you never know, your grandchildren might be proud.
What was the cost of paper like compared to today? Was it similar price as regular inkjet papers today?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I'm remembering 8 X 10 fiber being .50/sheet plus ca. 1972. RC, as it was called in the US, was between 60 and 75% of the cost of fiber. The time savings of course still applied so for all but the "exhibition print" it was plastic. I'm a fan of glossy fiber paper, air dried so it's slightly matte. I then spritz the back of the curly print and put it in my dry mount press, take it out hot and press it in blotter paper. Flat as a filbert. Double weight was as stiff as a card. I'm a durst user and have an antique but majestic 5 X 7 that must weigh 200 kg. Cursed glass carriers too.
Watching you in the darkroom is recreation.
Great video
Thanks Nasos
The eternal innovator. Well done . . . . again.
Great video ..just stared trying to make prints in the darkroom.. many failures but loving the whole process
The failures lead to better things. I know that much!
Great video! I’ve recently started to print on fb paper as well. I would be very curious to see the results on glossy fb paper!
Me too!
good picture, nice print! If you stick to Fibre I can recommend Fomabrom 111 - so much cheaper and the same quality! Best Tom
In the early days before RC paper, I was taught that the FB paper always curled toward the emulsion side.
Yes, true. And if you hand them back to back in the same clips, it can help stop curling.
There is something about fibre...... but when I used to print runs of say 200+ 5x7s, RC was a blessing...easier to dry and use.
I just throw mine under some heavy art books to flatten, works fine.
Jeeze, you weren’t kidding when you told me you spent a long time on this video!
lol
Try slightly dampen the paper before the ironing. The water will releas the stress in fiber and emulsion . When you Iron it the paper will take its flat form way easier. Give it a try!
Very interesting video. How is George?
Thanks Socrates. George is nuts again! He is getting used to having one eye. Thanks!
I really like the Ilford glossy fiber. It isn’t nearly as glossy as the RC paper and it isn’t textured like what you are using here. Give it a try once you do there is no going back. :) oh and you can dry the prints flat under books over night.
Won't stick to the pages?
Shoot Film Like a Boss Nope big do put them in between Matt board with the books on top
I been working in the darkroom about 40 years and I say no one beats the Agfa paper . It is pity that you cant find it anymore . The grades and the blacks I seen in it i didn’t seen them on any other papers . For me Agfa was number one . Some time fiber paper I used to glaze it and it will come out more brilliant and glossy specially the low key .
What do you use today Mario that compares?
Today i changed the system to digital . I live in malta and it came to me very difficult to find materials now days . I still have the darkroom and still have my three enlargers and every thing as well . But as I said it came difficult to me and also to many friends members of the malta photographic society . And now it is more difficult to buy from UK because of Brexit .
Found a cheap way to flatten prints...Matt board inside a trouser press (£15 on eBay!!)
You say that. My first idea was actually under the bed over night! Poor man's trouser press.
Shoot Film Like a Boss I remember that method of pressing trousers from my early days in the force.....top of the range Corby trouser presses now 20 quid....way to go!
Fiber paper is the only way to go
I'd pay to learn this art
When you are using that iron, try using blotting paper between the board and the print. I do the same with my dryer. Blotting paper is very inexpensive and keeps everything consistent and not a great chance of dyes from the board leaching on to the print.
Thanks for that tip. I've not noticed dye from the board inbedding into the print..... Yet! But good thought!
Great video though my man. Really dig these.
Love the video! Can’t recall if you have mentioned it or not, but what selenium toner do you use? Do you use the Ilford stuff?
It's called Selinia.
If your fixing and washing routine was insufficient, my understanding is that the selenium toning would've brought that out. Any residual silver would have toned. If you've got residual fixer, on the other hand, and that'ss something you can test for, the print will develop stains as time foes on. How did all that work out? I don't know that you ever said..
You can flatten prints with a tshirt press from eBay . FYI
I hang my fibre prints back to back with clothes pegs at the corners and they dry pretty flat
Hi, you might like to have a look at Lina Bessonova and her vid on archival washing of fibre based paper and save money, a bit of an eye opener! Enjoy your channel vvg
Hi Rodger, nice one as usual.
Dis you notice any changes in tee print color after almost a year now from making that video?
Stay safe,
Florian
Not on the master print but the test print I did. It went a stained yellow patchy kind of look.
Hello! Please tell me what kind of matte boards you used to align the print, what material are they made of?
If you're going to hang FB prints to dry, try putting two prints together, back-to-back, wet enough to stick together?
Does that dry them flat?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Not perfectly, it still leaves some curling, but it's much more easy to flatten them out later.
Fiber > RC
Just the look of fiber paper alone is worth the extra. My favourite is still the FB Warmtone Semi-matt papers.
I've yet to try others. I wouldn't mind trying glossy next
This was a great video for me as I'm currently CONSIDERING buying this paper, but I'm not sure if it's worth the considerable cost. I have some mother-and-baby shots I want to make for the mum, and I want them to look spectacular. And I am still torn. Your prints look nice. The egg shell look and the heavy weight look appealing. But, I'm not sure it is SO much better? I guess what I am interested to know from you, as someone who prints A LOT, is have you used the paper since? Do you still use it for any special work? Or do you not think its especially worth the extra?
I've never used resin paper and I think your washing will be adequate. I have fiber prints that I have washed in trays, letting them soak and changing out the water a few times over a couple of hours and I have never had a print lose its original values. I always selenium tone in a hypo clear solution (sodium sulfite basically). You were doing the right thing when washing after fixing and before toning; sometimes that will cause yellow spots to appear if fixer is still in the paper. Depending on the type of fixer you used, sodium thiosulfate based fixers can cause staining if not washed prior to toning, but your experience may differ. I use Ilford Hypam fixer now and it has cut my fixing time down and made toning much easier. I like your DIY washer, I still wash my prints in big 16x20 trays, kind of a soak and flush process. I dry mine on screens and if I want them flat I put them in my dry mount press for a minute and then put a heavy book on top (make sure it is clean, no grit) while it cools. Enjoyed the video!
Thanks for the info Steve. Appreciated. Why are you fiber only?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Fiber is supposed to be more archival, or at least it was when I started way back when.
Nice presentation which model enlarger b&w are u using
Durst m605
Don´t need to use multigrade filters for this kind of paper?
Quite specific, but what contrast level and enlarger f-stop do you expose at?
I struggle a bit with achieving great contrast on my fibre prints :)
I always start with a 2.5 Grade filter and two stops down from my widest aperture. From there I can decide how to start using the filters to control the contrast. Your negatives could be flat also.
If you like fiber, you might consider that kind of dedicated paper dryer.
st-lento.pl/adpics/large/11_2017/02/562055_suszarka-fotograficzna-libella-zdjecia.jpg
Emulsion down for glossy, emulsion up (to the cloth) for matte. A couple of minutes and you're done.
I know it's a little out of topic and a few months ago, but do you remember the settings on the Zeiss for this picture? Thank you :)
Any shots like that on the zeiss I set the focus to infinity. And generally follow the sunny 16 rule. I keep it simple.
Expensive paper is dangerous. Don't have the space for a printing darkroom, but I do enjoy my inkjet printing, and have to say that I've got a box of Hahnemuhle & Museo paper that I won't bring myself to use at times because it's too expensive! Daft I know, "Don't use it because you might need it for something important"...
I was curious about fibre based papers and whether they'd curl badly. I hate washing and ironing, so I can see that even if I did get the space for it, I'd probably stick to RC.
It was a lengthy process!
Hello from Brooklyn, New York - What happened to the print that you washed for a minute over time ? did it yellow etc ect. TY
No issues and still preserved
Hi , I dry my fiber print on a at least 6 mm thick glass plate . First I wipe the water off the print and place it with the photo upwards on the glass plate . Press away the air unther the print . Than I cut aquarel glue paper strokes on lenght . Moister the glue paper stroke on a sponge with a tiny bit water . It must not be dripping wet , than the glue get unther the print and you get big problems to get the dried print from the glass plate . So moister the paper tape light .
Than I go to bed and the next morning I cut with a narrow brake off knife along the edges off the print . If you are lucky you hear the dried print tick from the losing tension . Sometime you have to cut a little bit unther the print where the paper edge got glued to the glass plate . Here is the narrow brake off knife very handy you can bend the knife flat to cout unther paper .
Why I do dry my fiber prints this way ? Because the fibers from the paper get straight in one direction and the fiber print will stay flat for ever . The other important plus is that the tint and tonal scale from the fiber print stay the same like the wet print . My paper Fomabrom Variant become a little yellow from hot drying in a press . Your wintersport prints look like taken in the Sahara effect ..... I can have made some mistakes in my Dutch engels , but I think you untherstand . Peter .
PS I remove the papertape on the glassplate with a Stanly sticker removing knife and clean the glassplate . Peter .
Thanks for sharing this Peter. If you ever make a video or image illustration I'd be interested to see. Thank you.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I will try to make a instruction video some time , greetings Peter .
Did you consider using Speed Wash to shorten the wash time? I checked some small fiber based prints I did of one of my sons about 28 years ago and they look fine, no yellowing at all.
I used a wash aid but still gave it 30 minutes. I'll be interested to see what that print looks like after washing for just a short while.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss The most popular type of fiber based paper back in the Camera Club days was Glossy Unglazed i.e. glossy paper but let dry naturally.
From what I saw in a store, the only difference is that this paper is textured. Not crazy about that. Is it easier to work with?
That was some time ago. From what I remember the paper had a lovely feel to it but fixing and washing and drying took more time and it I had to flatten the paper after drying.
Great job. I am wondering about the five minutes developing time. Is this special for this Ilford paper and developer combo? When I develop my favorite Foma Fibre paper I apply the rule of thumb - 6 times the time until the image appears. So about 90 seconds. Would that work also with this paper?
I noticed my test strip got more black after three minutes so I left it in for five just to be on the safe side. I could have done a max black test.
I also messaged you recently on Patreon Heiko.
Art 300 technical data sheet gives a preferred development time of 3 minutes for this paper (with dilution of 1+9, but 5 mins on 1+14 with Multigrade developer). On other papers it's usually more like 2 minutes (like the cheaper Ilford FB papers with Multigrade dev.). Check the data sheets on different papers!
hello, 3 years after this video do you still use baryta paper, or do you prefer RC paper thank you and have a nice day
I prefer RC
Any update on if the quick fix and short rinse has yellowed?
The print is still. In my darkroom on the wall. Not yet have I noticed any change.
Hi, visit my Community area on this channel. I've just posted a photo of that print. Ah yeah, it's changing
Began printing before resin coated paper existed.
if you use RC paper for test strips could you get your exposure then switch to FB paper to save on waste of the expensive FB paper?
Not a good idea. You may get different results and end up wasting more paper.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss NO!
Re: Burning the sky; would the result be different if you use ND grad filters? Or aren't you really a fan of those?
I have no grad filters. Good ones are kind of expensive such as Lee Filters. Not being a professional landscape photographer I'd probably use the money on other kit and do without the grads.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss You can probably still buy the Cokin Z-Pro graduated filter kit at a lower price than the individual pieces. That is how I got mine.
I think the high weight of the paper has not sense. The old AZO Kodak was light weight paper with wonderful black and tones on a wonderful surface. Tones, black and surface look are the most important factor in a print.. and not the weight! In my opinion the paper should have more silver... and less weight!.
Fibre paper spoils you. It spots perfectly for dust, tones nicely and has huge archival permanence. The downside is it's prone to curl, takes longer to wash and these days is damned expensive.
There are as many theories on flattening the stuff as there are photographers. The traditional way was in big linen coated print glazers. I find getting the paper almost dry and sandwiching it in water colour paper under a heavy weight works. To get it perfectly flat FB paper needs mounting. Matt resin coated paper is a reasonable substitute.
Matt Jones mentioned water colour book drying. Interesting!
So, what did happen to the print?
I featured it in a few videos after that. It went all stained and yucky!
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I guess that was expected really :)
we didnt see the bubbles
I'll show you next time 😂
'Bubbles' doesn;t mean you are a West Ham supporter -- it means your Stop Bath is TOO STRONG !
Ha ha