Feet of Clay By Terry Pratchett [SPOILER] Discussion | Discworld
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Words in the heart cannot be taken is my favorite line in the whole series, and I love the golems so much. Fun fact! The golems all have names that are insults in Yiddish
That is a great one, but the most powerful line in this for me is Do. Not. Say. Thou. Shalt. Not. Say. I. Will. Not.
What does "Dorfl" mean? 😅
@@iagreewithyou3478 Dorf in German (and by extension Yiddish) means town or village, so Dorfl would be something derived from that.
A quote from Moving Pictures might help
"All dwarfs have beards and wear many layers of clothing. Their courtships are largely concerned with finding out, in delicate and circumspect ways, what sex the other dwarf is."
One thing you kind of have to accept in Discworld is that Pterry didn't do all that much worldbuilding in advance, and where he had an idea in a later book that contradicted something established in a previous one, he didn't let it get in the way. He always prioritised storytelling, character and themes over consistency. He was pretty open about this, the best explaination he'd ever really give was to blame the history monks (you'll get to those later). There are a few other examples, like Vimes not knowing in Guards Guards that Ankh-Morpork had ever even had a king, and later on being very defensive about his very famous ancestor who had executed a king. Or Death's character being drastically different between the first two books and the rest of the series.
These inconsistencies can be slightly jarring, but there aren't actually that many and you get over them. I think that a series like Discworld can get away with it much more than a series which takes itself too seriously. And as I say, there are some in-world reasons for them. In a world which exists on the very edge of reality itself, perhaps it would be weird if it were too consistent.
Also when it comes to Minty - the dwarf Carrot had a crush on back home - Carrot says himself that he's only "pretty sure she's female" in Guards Guards.
Switching to chronological once the series has it's hooks in you is honestly the smart choice! Personally though I read them in the order that I found them in my local second-hand bookshop, which meant nothing resembling any kind of logical order at all 😅
Yeah, the first watch book I was able to get a hold of was Night Watch, which works fine on its own, but is a lot better once you have the rest of the series behind it. And makes more sense once you know which book was right before it.
Discworld is great because it's good in any order, even if it's best in chronological
Same. My dad had the illustrated last hero so I read that first then read Mort and guards guards next.
Same. I started with jingo (which is next I think?). When I'd read them all I went back and read it again and by enjoyed it way more.
I read the truth first and then just read what ever one sounded interesting to me at the time. It’s fun to now go back and read them in what is considered the order. I was reading men at arms and got all excited when Vimes talked about the post office as going postal is still one of my all time favs.
Agreed! Good time to go meet Rincewind. I'd add a safety switch to a chronological read: if enthusiasm for Discworld begins to wane then jump to the standalone GOAT, Small Gods.
I could talk about Cheri, Dorfl, Vimes, Angua, and Nobby for hours. Cheri and Dorfl’s storylines were really what elevated this book for me. Especially Cheri. Her entire journey of expressing her true self was incredible and felt so modern in its exploration of gender as a whole that really landed for me personally.
Pratchett has the quote “All dwarfs have beards and wear up to twelve layers of clothing. Gender is more or less optional.” And this book really felt like his understanding of gender and it’s fluidity and how culture and society affects “gender norms”, it was all fantastic and felt so ahead of its time. The way Cheri is made so unhappy by the cultural expectations she is supposed to align with, the fear and anxiety she has with deviating from those expectations and receiving judgement from others. And how freeing and relieving it is to have someone to trust and can confide in like Angua to support Cheri and help her take those steps in expressing herself. And the further step of relief and joy from having your peers like Vimes and Carrot treating Cheri with respect and acceptance and addressing her as a woman. Even in the minor things, like the fact that as soon as Cheery is revealed to be a woman, Narrator Pratchett only ever refers to her as a woman with feminine pronouns. And as soon as she changes her name to Cheri, the narrator only ever refers to her as Cheri for the rest of the book. It was all so incredibly well done and it’s stunning this was written in 1996 because it feels like so in tune to modern discussions.
The scene where Cheri hands Angua a list of names partially crossed out, and Angua thinks to herself “Cheri. Now, what does that name conjure up? Does the mental picture include iron boots, iron helmet, a small worried face and a long beard? Well, it does now.” SO GOOD! 😭
Cheri is one of my favorite DIscworld characters, I find her journey interesting and like that no matter what she is still very much a Dwarf.
Jingo is next in the city watch series, Thud! Is quite a long way down the line.
With regards to reading it chronological instead of reading the different arcs, I feel like both approaches provide different, equally enjoyable reading experiences (which naturally "miss out" some of the joys of the other approach). Ultimately I've found that the discworld is so expansive in cast, scope, and world that it's hard to stick to just one approach: sometimes you'll want to read in chronological order, sometimes a sub-series will grab you and you'll want to stay with it for a little longer before going back to the proper order of things 😋
Also this may interest you as you enjoy exploring middle-grade fiction but Terry Pratchett has another discworld subseries aimed specifically at middle-grade that links in nicely with the Witches arc.
I’m working my way through City Watch, Death, and Moist Von Lipwig. They collide in some really fun ways, but I don’t have the patience (or all the books) to read in chronological order.
tiffany arching series, alsothey dont have tobe read chronological, also deaths and moist are favourites so, :)
@@maryjothaler9083 same I was doing death then went for audiobooks :/ I don't dislike Sian I just think they could have done better for the death series. Maybe just have Peter do the whole thing instead of just the voice? It would have felt more personal
I wouldn't call the entirety of Tiffany Aching middle-grade fiction, maybe only the first one. The later ones can be very dark.
If you're feeling a bit burnt out from the watch arc, I'd suggest reading a standalone one. Small Gods would be my recommendation. It's my favorite book ever.
Brutha’s last line in the epilogue gets me every time.
Guards! Guards! Men at Arms and Feet of Clay sometimes get referred to as the city watch trilogy as they all focus on a plot within Ankh-Morporkh and are constrained there. The following Watch/ Vimes books expand outward more while using the same core characters, becoming a little less whodunnit (though there typically are 'mysteries' which are often less who, and instead how and why - it's no longer about toppling Vetinari in favour of a king). Jingo would actually be the next one, then The Fifth Elephant, then Night Watch, then Thud!, then Snuff.
But I think, now you've spent some time with the more developed writing style of Pratchett, you're making a great decision going back and starting chronologically. If you find a particular sub-series you enjoy you can always dive in again :)
Regarding Carrot's comment about his aunt contradicting the earlier books, here's what Pratchett had to say about continuity - "There are no continuity errors in Discworld, merely alternate pasts". He codified this with "Thief of Time" which means that any continuity errors can be explained away by the History Monks fixing or modifying things.
Terry never let continuity get in the way of a good story.
It's not just that the first two are weaker for me, it's that they have a different vibe and some characters even feel different (Death). The first two are more riffs on the classic fantasy of Conan and Elric so if you are not too familiar with them then you may miss some references. Rincewind is the only one I can remember being introduced in the first two that carries on to the rest of the series mostly unchanged. The rest either do not reappear or have a different character so are in name only. Feels like after those first two Pratchett worked out how he wanted his world to be rather than just being a parody of other famous worlds.
Yeah, the first two are just straight up comical parodies of current at the time fantasy tropes and stories, rather then the satirical fantasy as mirror to reality they are best know as.
Blue for preference...
Couple of things. I assumed the conversation was had between the punters at Biers. not within the Guard (I like to think the barman has a blanket under the bar in the same way they might have e.g. a baseball bat)
Also, I took blue for preference to mean "blue works best". As in, they tried lots of different ones but that one always works. I didn't take that to mean the Bogeyman got any say, I doubt he likes any blankets on his head.
Anyway, lovely review. look forward to more!
The highest praise I can give to Ser Terry is that he managed to make me enjoy a book with a plotline that is essentially fantasy "artificial intelligance gains sentience, and gets freed". I really did not anticipate to like this book, but there are just so many good stuff in there.
The main issues with going by release is Feet of Clay is book 19, so it'll take ages to catch up. Pros though; some of those early gems tend to get missed.
I'll be here either way.
Yay! You're going chronological!
I think you're correct and that you've seen enough of how good the series can get that you'll be able to get through the weaker work at the beginning and get to the very good stuff. I look forward to seeing if you'll decide to re-read the 3 Watch books you've already read when they come up chronologically. Have fun!
Yes. I think your aproach should work really well. Next books in The City Watch reference other Discworld novels more and more. And reading The Color of Magic when you are already a fan and know that it does not represent the whole series is exactly what everyone should do.
Who told you "Thud" was next? Ook? Jingo is next in the City Watch. That said, jump around if you are getting any type of fatigue move in what ever way the Great Turtle moves you. That said and i can not stress this enough and i hope others here will echo me. PLEASE READ BOTH 'The Colour of Magic' and 'The Light Fantastic' as they are two parts of the same story, to be continued at the end. Only books in the series that this happens with but if you want the whole story it's advised that you read both, also they are kinda short.
I’ve been going mostly chronological in my read (which has had starts and stops over the last few years but my goal this year is to read them all) and I’m not sure why people say not to do that? Characters and concepts are introduced and built up over time and sometimes Pratchett makes what seems like a one-off joke in a book that he then makes a whole book exploring that idea it’s been really fun to see that. Plus you get more from characters who don’t necessarily belong in one arc (like Ridcully, Stibbons, the Dibblers) and it’s like having a friend stop by for a bit
I don’t have much to add other than my support for a chronological read. I made it to fifth elephant (5th city watch book) before pivoting to chronological read.
The world changes technologically throughout the books and it becomes a little strange to read by arc if you do it that way. Also as you touched on the references between books do pop up multiple times. So I do think you’re making the right decisions. Plus there are AMAZING early books like Mort and Wyrd Sisters. I hope you find ones you love too.
I agree it’s a smart choice to switch to the chronological order at this point is smart. There’s a lot of world building that happens that you miss out on and references that don’t land right going by arc for your first read through. Plus the stand alone books sprinkled throughout are also a ton of fun!
yay! Chronological for the win! The way you see Pratchett's world-building unfold across the various narratives of the disc is one of my favorite elements to the series. This way you can really see how big events ripple across the disc in both small and big ways.
In terms of order for The Watch: Guards Guards->Men at Arms->Jingo->Feet of Clay->Fifth Elephant->Night Watch->Thud->Snuff.
I would recommend going chronologically from this point on, there are a lot of tiny continuity flourishes that I only caught years into reading due to reading out of order the first time. Love the series, please keep it up!
Feet of Clay is before Jingo. Also I would add the Truth, Monstrous Regiment and Moist von Lipvig-books in between the Watch books since those give another close perspective to the city and the Watch
Having read them all there is something you gain from reading in order. You will notice the point when he hits his stride with the series. There are also characters who appear regularly but never as their own Book arc. Also, as I know you like your magic systems, wizards magic is a soft magic system. Witches is a hard magic system that is explained slowly over a number of books. In terms of duos, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are the greatest, when you get to Lords and Ladies you will understand if you hadn't already.
It really makes me happy to see someone new to the series enjoying Discworld this much! (Stumbled upon this video from reddit)
Now is a good point to move to chronological order: the large thematic shifts that Pratchett underwent are only just beginning, and the real - idk, vibe? - of the Discworld is just starting to come out of its gnere of 80s fantasy into it's own!
If you really liked the exploration of sexism, racism and other social 'embuggerances' in FoC, then you'll _love_ Equal Rites (though I will admit, ER focuses much more on the one theme of sexism than the miriad of themes that the Watch does)
So, interesting thing about feet of clay. It was my FIRST Terry Pratchett novel (not my first exposure to Terry pratchett though, that interestingly came do to a 1990s point and click adventure game that I had no idea anything about but liked to play).
It was my first novel because my then girlfriend lent it to me because it was the first discworld novel she had been lent.
Moral of the story is there is not necessarily a WRONG place to start reading the Discworld. All the novels stand on their own (mostly). Yes there is a wonderful sense of progression watching the characters grow. And once I love Feet of Clay (and my goodness I loved feet of clay) I actually just decided to start at book one. The colour of magic and read them in order of publication going forward.
But my goodness I fell in love with the watch series. There are so many incredible observations on the human condition in the watch series that are punctuated with absolute hilarity.
Also, I'm not sure if you will come to agree but Pratchett, to me, handles Female characters better than any male author alive (and better than a whole lot of female authors as well). We're all just people after all.
Looking forward to you getting to know DEATH better.
I so, so much agree with your choice! Next watch book would taste better if you'll get a break. And once you already hooked, I'm sure you'll enjoy Colour of magic more, than if you started with it. There is a chance you'll love Rincewind to pieces :D Those are two pretty quick books and then we're onto Witches which are my personal favourites ^^
Going back to the start is a great idea! It is a really fun way to go through the series, because you get crossover characters and references to previous events and running gags who you otherwise wouldn't appreciate as much. I would however say that you need to be prepared for The Colour of Magic and The Light Fantastic to be a very different experience, and for the quality of the writing to not be as good. If you've not read a lot of the more classic, pulpy, and sword-and-sorcery type fantasies then you won't get as many of the references, because TCOM and TLF are in many ways just massive parodies of those genres. You might feel you have to push through those two books, but it is worth it. And having said all that, I do personally like them both.
I've only just finished your Men At Arms review yesterday, this is a real treat!
I'm reading discworld chronologically and I love catching the little things and ideas that carry on to the next books. I decided when I realized I'd read all discworld books and had already fallen for them and went back. Starting with the first two books really is tough though. You're going to looove granny whetherwax when you get to her
One thing I love in this book (among everything else) is how Pratchett gives a nice nod to the Golem myth origins from the Jewish folklore and uses Hebrew letters for their language. It's not perfect of course but as a Jew it quite amused me.
Also, 30 minutes to talk about a Pratchett book is way too little :D
Glad you are going back to read from the beginning, it will certainly enrich your experience as you'll meet the rest of the characters in this wonderful world. Sure, the first two are weaker but they are still quite enjoyable. Have fun Merphy :D
The question in which order I should read the Discworld novels never arose for me. I discovered Pratchett early, fell in love with his writing style and had to wait (im)patiently for the next book to be published. My suggestion for new readers today: start with Guard Guards (Watch arc), then Men at Arms. But then switch to the other story arcs (Witches, Death, Wizards) to experience their story so you can get to know the Discworld as a whole better. In every book Pratchett adds little hints and links to the other stories and characters; sometimes subtly, sometimes even as a larger part of the story. The characters in the background are the glue that binds different stories together, or even view them from a meta-position until they become the main character themselves (I'm talking to you, sweeper)
"Words in the heart cannot be taken" break me 😢
I don't want to sound like a know-it-all, but I'm saying this just in case you don't know. You should look up the Golem of Prague. It may give you some insight into the golem in Feet of Clay. I read a book where the golem of Prague was a character, and it helped me a little bit when I read Feet of Clay.
There are all sorts of cameos and little gems to pick up on that cross between series if you read chronologically. I really enjoyed my first read through that way.
I'm so happy that you decided to go chronologically. There are things in other books that change the world or change a lot in Ankh-Morpork. Can't wait for coming reviews. Especially the Death and Granny ones. 😀
I personally found the Colour/Light books to be a blast to read. Their silliness is equal to the silliness of the tropes that are being gently mocked.
And maybe there is a very good and specific reason that Carrot was adopted. Perhaps his mum and dad couldn't have children due to a biological incompatibility. And Carrot never really got any further with Minty than discovering "she" had a very soft beard.....
Regarding the discrepancy between Carrot courting Minty (was it?) and his comment in this book, I'm pretty sure it's just because TP was developing the culture of the dwarves over the course of writing and he only started to develop their cultural norms regarding gender in this book.
Love the switch to chronological.
I switched to publication order after reading Death and Witches series in order, and I’ve been loving it so far. First two novels are rough, but hopefully they won’t dissuade you from checking out the rest of this wonderful series!
I think Chronological is the way to go, especially since you get to see all of recurring characters grow (Death, The Librarian, Gaspode, etc), but if you're going to the next city watch book, keep in mind that Jingo and Fifth Elephant come before Thud! and Snuff.
So glad you are getting into Discworld Merphy. Its hands down my favourite fantasy series. Love all the watch books, there isnt a bad book in that series. Great review as always!
Just watched the review of 'Men at Arms' and commented that I wanted her to reach this one. Surprised she's not drawing a parallel between AIs, not simple racism. Pratchett was really into tech. I'm fairy certain Golems on the Discworld are like AIs in ours. This one might be my favorite Discworld book.
Great review, I think now you have a "in" to the Diskworld books going chronological is the best way forward.
That's a great way to start. I started with Hogfather, Witches Abroad, and then A Hat Full of Sky before I read Colour of Magic (and then, my favorites so far, Reaper Man and Small Gods.) I still need to read a bunch of them but I'd like to do it chronologically, more or less, at this point.
12:15 I'm not sure what you mean here. It makes perfect sense that Carrot could be a little uncertain because he is adopted. At least thats how I always interpreted it. He's genetically a human and was adopted by a family of dwarfs. I think he knows this but still identifies as a dwarf because thats how he was raised.
Really enjoying your discussions of the Discworld series, hope you continue doing one per book. Whilst you don't need to read in chronological order, one of the great joys of the Discworld is the overall arc of world building, particularly the development of Ankh-Morpork. I'd also add that The Colour Of Magic and Light Fantastic are not weak books in the wider sense, they are just weak for Terry Pratchett - who ended up being possibly the greatest ever fantasy author. So still good. He finds the voice you will recognise in book 3 though, and it is one banger after another from that point on.
Loving this series. Keep reading Discworld Ms. I'm re reading the series to keep up with videos.
Rincewind is my favourite character in Discworld. Wizzards are just bonkers but uni wizzards might take a while to enter in your reading order. So colour of magic is gonna be great re read :D
The color of magic/the light fantastic are VERY different than the watch series. There's also a very cute BBC tv movie adaptation with Tim Curry as an evil head wizard! And it's pretty accurate to the books!
Equal Rites is about a girl who wants to be a wizard. We meet a very crude version of Granny Weatherwax, who becomes much cooler in Wyrd Sisters.
You should absolutely jump around. You don't have to completely, strictly stick to chronological, especially with the stand-alone books, but I'd definitely recommend reading some of the Witches and the Death books before jumping back into the Watch. Not a huge fan of Rincewind myself, but I haven't read all of them. You're hooked now, so go for it! you'll be so happy to return to the Watch books after dipping into the other arcs. If you're into literature you'll love the Witches stuff!
This is so funny, I wanted to read roughly alongside you, but I also felt fatigued, I wanted to read Pratchett, but I didn’t wanted to read Jingo, so I started Mort two days ago 😂
TL;DR: don't jump straight to Thud!
Ok, judging by the overtime your cheek-muscles are doing, I think you will enjoy discworld in whatever order you choose to read them. And when you said that you don't particularly like detective stories I thought well, the watch books are kinda all ...
However if you later want to jump out of the chronological order to read another city watch book (because sometimes you just want the hang out with them), don't jump right to Thud! Jingo, The Fifth Elephant and Night Watch are all also city watch books
I actually really like the first two books (Rincewind is one of my faves) and am more hesitant about Equal Rites (because it just doesn't feel like a witches book yet), but as long as you keep in mind that Pratchett was still figuring out this Discworld for himself, and so many details in the early books aren't consistent with how the world works later on, you'll be fine
Sorry for the long comment, I put the TLDR at the top, have fun with the next one!
The swap in how much the story focuses on Carrot and Vimes is due to Sir Pterry originally intending on Carrot being the main character for the Watch books, but as he wrote, Vimes just kind of stepped up to take that spot.
It's a this up on of this or Fifth Elephant is my favorite Watch book, but both are amazing. I love how the big scheme fell apart because Nobby was too terrified of pissing off Vimes to be King, and the villain explained the entire plot, to Vimes' face, but using heraldic jargon mixed with puns, so he never noticed.
Have fun swaping to the new order, the early books aren't quite as theme heavy, but still good fun!
BUT VIMES WOULD GO SPARE!
Okay, to start with, you do you. Begin the chronological read now, it's cool, I don't blame you at all. Now onto the Watch. Feet of Clay was actually the first Pratchett book that I read despite having both Colour of Magic and Light Fantastic on my shelves for quite a while - I had attempted to read them but never got past the first 50 pages. Feet of Clay is what got me hooked. It's from there I went back to Guards guards and onwards. Having said that I've not read Jingo which is the next Watch book. No idea why lol, possibly because this was before the internet was really a thing so I didn't know any different! My next Watch book was Fifth Elephant which I adore. Honestly that then Night Watch then Thud are probably my favourite Pratchett books of all time! Enjoy your journey into Discworld Merph, I dearly hope you keep going once you finish off the year with Eric.
I for one, approve of the plan to go chronological. It isn't a must, but it is a workable plan.
Oh, and you should like to know that the BBC adapted the first 2 books and cast one Sean Aston in the lead. So there's that too.
Sure, as long as you’ve seen that he can write really good books, do go back and read them in order. I really don’t think that the small references between the series are that important for enjoyment, though. But I’m looking forward to seeing how you like his other stuff.
I have read all the Discworld books many (many, many) years ago but now that you're switching to chronological order, i've decided to reread the series with you. The Colour of Magic is now on top of my to read pile and i'm looking forward to it!
Color of magic is still a fun book, once there is no danger of someone stopping with the series it is worth reading
Cheery Littlebottom is one of my favorite characters of all time in anything. She brings me so much joy when she shows up. Also, just dusted off my copy of Equal Rites to read before you review it. Might even read CoM and LF.
I read it in order, so many little things appear as the general timeline advances, that you as reader notice but the characters dont
One of the best things about Sir P'Terry's work is that every time you read it you discover something more or read something in a different way and suddenly a new pun or reference is revealed. Recently, someone mentioned to me (They are a long-time, decades-old Pratchett fan) they had only just realised that Cheery Littlebottom's name in dwarfish is pronounced Sh’rt’azs... Or Shortarse - slang primarily heard in the UK, Australia meaning someone of small stature.
Interestingly, the Bulgarian translation is М'лкг'з which would be Малък Гъз or Small Ass.
That's the joy of rereading his books you pick up on all the things you missed on the first 100 reads.
Something I think you might have overlooked about undead is that Pratchett doesn't just use them to talk about racism, but also addiction. When Angua has trouble not going out snatching chickens on a full moon, or a vampire pledges to stop drinking blood, that isn't necessarily talking about that in terms of a racial stereotype that turns out to be right, but as an addiction that has to be fought, much like Vimes has his own battles with addiction.
Loving that you going through discworld. I will have to comeback to this I haven't read this one yet, as Ive been jumping around series.
I definitely think switching to chronological is the right choice! I read all of them chronologically (because I didn't want to miss any references and also because even if the first books are the weakest, it can only go up from there...) and I actually liked The Color of Magic and The Light Fantastic. I hope you like Rincewind! And I'm pretty sure you're gonna love the Luggage
Whichever order you read Discworld I'll be excited to hear your opinions! So many of the subplots went unnoticed by me when I read this book. 😊
I love how much you’re enjoying the Discworld books
I'm surprised you didn't mention the strong LGBT+ themes in this one. It stood out to me that the undead, especially in this book, are clearly coded to be LGBT+. That scene where Angua brings cheery to the undead bar, which she describes a place where they can be "free" and "amongst their own kind", away from the judgements of others. Angua being a werewolf, and can pass as human and wolf (and later in The Fifth Elephant we learn she had a wolf ex, implying she's had a bit of both), feels strongly implied to represent bisexuality. That and Cheery (Cheri) and her struggle being very reminiscent of transgender identity.
'I hear you buddy... go chronological'
Cracked me up
I started with Small Gods. Still the best Discworld book
Love that "Nobby but more" pun, only realised it this time, nobby being slang for posh.
...I've read this book a dozen times and never noticed that pun. Goddammit, PTerry!
Btw the next City Watch book is Jingo!. It goes Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Night Watch, Thud!, Snuff
Gods, the whole series is just brilliant! I'm rereading it from time to time, and I'm soooo happy every time I do it. Trying to remember the order I read it for the first time, tho... I guess it was close to chronological (apart from the fact that I read The Fifth continent first, which is like 20th book in the series or something). Sir Terry is fabulous anyway, ya kno.
Go ahead and switch series! I feel the same way at this point so Id say switch it up. Small gods is my primary recommendation, but you will get to that in due time
I love these books! Sucks you can't find Jingo! The fifth elephant or night watch in US audible. Messed up they only have 5/8books in the series!
The next one is not about re-instating a king. I read all of the discworld books by arc. It’s always nice to understand the Easter eggs that Pratchett puts in, but they are NEVER essential to the characters or the story. If you do decide to switch to a different arc I would go with the witches.
No, Thud is not next! Don’t read it next! Next City Watch book is The Fifth Elephant. Then Nightwatch, then Thud, and finally Snuff. Those are after a time jump. I don’t really see Jingo as a Nightwatch book - it’s a bit of an anomaly. Equal Rites is a witches book.
I think chronological is a good idea. Now that you’ve had a better intro than CoM, I think you’ll find it very interesting to go back to the start and see the development. And there are still themes I know you’ll enjoy.
You might not enjoy whodunnit’s as such, but I think the mystery is the least important aspect of the Nightwatch novels. It’s just a framework - a hangar for the clothes, if you like.
Really looking forward to your continued encounters with Discworld. I’m so happy you’re reading them!
RE going back to chronological, I think is a wise move. You get to see the world expand as the books go on from being a medieval/fairytale inspired world to well, fantasy Charles Dickens and it's pretty incredible. Pratchett's written gets better too, especially on a plot and character development level. Though I do find the earlier books funnier than the later books, the later books have a coziness to them that I haven't seen replicated anywhere else. The later books are also far more philosophical and thematic, which stronger plots and character arcs..
Just know that the first eh 7/8 books or so aren't at the same quality as those guards book you've read, so make sure you're committed to the long haul because a few could cause a slump if you're not careful. Prachett's books are broken up into decades more or less, the 80s is figuring out the world and style, the 90s is a blend of the Monty Python-esque early stuff and the Dicken-esque later stuff, and then the 00s is pretty full on fantasy Dickens. The 2010s is where the embuggerance starts, the books are still good but the quality does dip here and there unfortunately
Regardless, enjoy the Discworld journey! It's a blast, and it's quite diverse and varied. Looking. forward to watching your reviews as they come!!
PS: don't worry about strict lore rules with Discword, especially in the first half of the series. Pratchett doesn't either. He changes things often; this isn't Wheel of Time or Lord of the Rings, the consistency f the world matters less than the themes he wants to discuss within his world and the characters that inhabit it.
i look forward to you reading Monsterous regiment, it is a great book
Cheery's name (and her father's) is a reference to the Disney version of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs where the dwarfs are all named after emotional states.
I wouldnt do Thud! next, go for Jingo in city watch.
You and Allen discussing Discworld. Let’s gooo
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's been reading along haha. Like I'd read several discworld books (including color of magic and.....yeaahh) but 1. They're wonderful to revisit and 2. I hadn't yet read all of them so this felt like a good way to get the steam rolling haha.
my take on pratchett's characters are a bit different.
it seems to me that he portrays humanity, and therefore all of his characters, as flawed. and not just as pre-saints that will inevitably achieve perfection but that all of humanity is intrinsically and irreparably flawed. they are flawed today. and they will be flawed tomorrow. and THAT'S OK. vimes, carrot, cheery, angua... they all have their prejudices. and they all probably will. maybe not the same ones. and certainly not with those they know (lots of racist people, after all, can and do like this or that person who is of the race that they dislike because they know them personally and 'oh but he's not like that'). and that's what i really love about pratchett. he has a clear morality that his characters display at their best. for our heroes, they do genuinely have hearts of gold. but pratchett recognizes that people who have their hearts genuinely in the right places are STILL morally compromised SOMEWHERE - and not only that but in a meaningful, non-trivial way. he has no delusions about what man is. and because of that, he can't have any truck with sanctimony. which, to me, is what differentiates him with moral discourse in society today in which if you are not perfectly perfect and always say exactly the perfect thing, you are to be shunned.
i love all of the night's watch books. but thud! is my favorite. can't wait for you to get to it.
BTW: you would be doing yourself a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge disservice by not trying a few of the nightwatch books (really, all the discworld books) as audible audiobooks when you get a chance. the narration feels like you're watching a movie in your head and the performances by nigel planer and stephen briggs REALLY bring the characters to life. actually, if you haven't started already, i highly highly recommend that you do thud! via audible. imo, stephen briggs' vimes is the definitive vimes.
EDIT: oh, and another GREAT subsection of discworld is the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION chunk starting with GOING POSTAL. srsly. you will love MOIST VON LIPWIG. and SPIKE. and you also slightly different angle on vetinarii as well.
I think you will get more out of Discworld going chronological. The sheer evolution of world, tone and character and Pratchett as a writer can be savoured. So a big 👍.
Also Cheery Little bottom one of my favourite characters in the series.
The Colour of Magic was a fun read for me. If you can let go of all expectations around how a plot should develop, it can be highly entertaining (especially for fans of Douglas Adams' writing style and humour). If you don't end up liking book #1, I'd suggest skipping ahead to #6 Wyrd Sisters - can't go wrong with the Witches series! Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are two of the awesomest characters. Period. And IMO, the Witches series is mostly self-contained. Although there's some overlap with other series's, it's written in such a way that it still makes sense for those who haven't been reading the Discworld books in order.
I have always wondered if Sir Terry started this 'series' with Carrot in mind as the central character....a King Arthur meeting socialism arc, only finding that as he progressed, Vimes actually took over (as he would). This book, for me, is that exact turning point in the City Watch arc (but no complaining here, I'm an absolute Vimes-fan)
At one point (don't recall when/where), I do know Terry publicly confirmed the Carrot/Vimes protagonist swap.
Alot of my friends who are part of Trans/Pan/Intersex community find Terry's writing of Dwarves relatable to their experience both with interactions with others and their general internal dialogue that gets them to comfort in being them. I think the in your face-ness of the sexism hid that layer from me first read through (themes developed as the arch/series continues)
The Watch series is my favorite set of books in Discworld, and Sam Vimes is my spirit animal 😂
it's in guards guards that dwarfs only divulge their gender when embarrassment might otherwise ensue, no idea what that means as far as parents go
Once the children on solids it just doesnt seem important to them
Lot of Robo Cop and Terminator references in this novel.
The Discworld novels have a lot things to say about racism and prejudice.
You will see as you progress, there are inconsistencies between the books. Pratchett tweaks established facts and characters to fit the current book. As you’ve seen in the situation when Carrot talks about his aunt (or whatever) almost certainly being female. In this case Pratchett - as you pointed out - emphasizes Carrot’s prejudice in contrast to his open views towards golems. This fits this book, this story, but is not consistent. Terry takes liberties that is his stile. Further more I think it is great you are going on chronologically, since the arcs are interwoven. I personally like the Rincewind arc (his arc starts with the first two books) because of nostalgia and since my life doesn’t go as planed either (whose does ;) ), I can relate to his bad luck and failures. I am looking forward to your reviews very much!
Personally, I would recommend reading the first 3 Witch books (Equal Rites, Wyrd Sisters, Witches Abroad) next. It puts you back in time chronologically and gives you a different set of characters.
Colour of Magic is good, but not Pratchett at his best. I will say the luggage is one of the best Pratchett inventions ever.
I love when Vimes said "... and Carrot, give him a tongue". Vimes has a strong character that (obviously, I'd call Lawful in D&D. Still, even though he's set in stone, he can still grow and see past his preconceptions. Such a silly series with such serious lessons.
I first read some of the discworld books a long time ago. I was a teenager. I have no idea what book I started with. I have since gone back and read through the series multiple times. I know I have read through the series in order. There is only one book I don't care about and one book that I don't like. I think my favorite sub-series is the Moist books. I am still trying to find a copy of The Carpet People to read. I know it isn't Discworld, but I still want to read it.
I know this is an older video lol but this is where i am at in the series. I was advised not to read in chronological order too. I just started Feet of Clay yesterday but i am going to see how it goes continuing the City Watch subseries, but I don't know how it'll go as i get into it. I am going to try and maybe figure out an alternate reading order if I start feeling like I am missing too much context
I think the next one in the watch series is the fifth elephant, then the night watch, then thud.
But did Carrot and Minty's relationship get to the point he knew Minty was female?
Iirc, Carrot was only *almost* certain that the dwarf he was courting was actually a woman.
Exactly. Dwarf courtship is basically two bearded dudes becoming friends, and at some point in the friendship one of them has to bite the bullet and reveal their actual gender, so they can find out if this friendship will remain platonic or perhaps lead to marriage.
It's a kind of messed up way to do it, but on a positive note it means that gay dwarves have been able to marry throughout history without any bigots realising it.
Terry has said that Dwarves do not have a mono-culture on the Disc. Carrot came from a particularly liberal mine.
His acceptance that there may be female Dwarves in his homeland may have something to do with it being around the same parts as the Witches, who do not hold with sexism
Thud! is book 7 which might explain the 'jump' people feel it has as the 4th? book;
Guards! Guards! (1989
Men at Arms (1993),
Feet of Clay (1996),
Jingo (1997),
The Fifth Elephant (1999),
Night Watch (2002),
Thud! (2005)
Snuff (2011).
if you want to change up for a bit go for it (the only real who dun it's left are thud and snuff) but if are not feeling the watch books right now trying to read them is just going to be a chore
Video idea: which ONE can hook you on a book regardless of the other two: writing, plot, or characters?
Just FYI: I'm not sure where you were reading that said Thud! is the next Watch book, but there are 3* more in that arc between Feet of Clay and Thud!.
* I say 3 with an asterisk because Jingo is probably my one let-down book in the series. But after that, Fifth Elephant is really solid and Night Watch is one of my favourite of the series, bar none. *then* comes Thud!.
But taking a break and going through another arc is always a good strategy to avoid burnout. :) Hopefully now that you're In, the weaker early books are more "fun" than rough. In that vein, and speaking to female dwarves and inconsistency, in a number of his earlier books he hadn't quite nailed down some of the things for Discworld yet, and the all-male-even-when-they-weren't Dwarves seems to be one of those things that he locked into as he was further into writing. Hence Carrot's inconsistency, and his lady dwarf (Mindy?) being basically never mentioned again as the series moved forward.
Great that you're reading these though, love seeing new folks find em.
Also, if you ever get to a point where you want to take a break from the Arcs and read what's basically a stand-alone as a nice little interlude, I cannot recommend Monstrous Regiment highly enough. Technically it comes later in the series, and there will be references to things that you may not have read yet, but none of that really matters as it really is its own encapsulated thing, and is a really cool take on a very different Discworld book. It's one of my two favourites in the series still.
Jingo is one of my personal favourites alongside Night Watch! Interesting to see someone who also loved Night Watch but didn't gel with Jingo. Curious to know what made it a let down for you?
@@robertwinslade3104 That's the weird thing, I can't point to any one thing that made it not work, more just that the Whole never came together for me. Many interesting threads that just didn't gel. I wish I had a better answer I could point to aside from that.
Jingo is probably the book that has the most references that are only likely to land with people familiar with a very specific era of British film and television. For example the Patrician in a fez doing magic tricks is probably just odd unless you’re familiar with Tommy Cooper.
@@poodlemuffin That does make a lot of sense as well. While I do have a fair amount of exposure to some, it's definitely all second-hand/at a remove, and not generally from that time period either so I'm sure there's a lot of things like that which would just completely be a miss. Good call-out.