Awkwardly enough, despite having been a reader since I was capable of reading and having amassed a large library of books... I've never considered before now that there might be a difference. Most books use tropes, and most good books also make you think deeper. I'd never considered that belonging to a genre made a work automatically lesser, because I'd never considered that literary works weren't in a genre, themselves. I suppose there may be a dissonance in regards to definitions. To me, genres are a superficial yet extremely convenient categorization system - almost everything belongs to one, and some belong to several. As for literature - I'd simply assumed that all books were literature, and that those whose popularity and message withstood the test of time were "classics." Apparently, these are not the standard definitions, but as of yesterday, they were the only ones I knew.
youre absolutely amazing, your voice is clear and soothing, your analysis is neither biased nor unfocused, and every topic you cover is in a perfect balance between 'listing' information and connecting them in (not too ambitious, pretentious) thought-provoking ways. im always happy when you upload a new video bc i know ill learn smth cool then, so ... thank youuuuu
I guess I'm not as tuned into the literary world as I thought I was. I didn't even realize this was a debate. Personally, I feel a writer shouldn't be scared to embrace the fantastical just as much as they shouldn't be afraid to let the pace break way in exchange for more powerful characters and setting. There's tons more to say than this, of course, but they all adhere to similar themes of which I just exhibited. Neither side is without complexities the other would do well to learn from. It really sucks that this is even being debated in the first place, I would've thought it self-evident that all works hold naturally inherent value. Oh well, I won't let it get to me. This too shall pass. Oh, and another sensational video by the way. I've yet to find another UA-camr as well-versed in the writing side of things, or at least in divulging it to their viewers, as you are. It is well appreciated, and I eagerly await your next video to come.
In the end, writing is just words on a page; the rest is an illusion. If the magic works, we wonder how the rabbit came out of the hat, whether it is a street performer or a famous magician on a big stage. If the magic happens, the words, the style, even the man behind the curtain, doesn't matter. We close the book and can never go back to who we were before we picked it up. Was it literary or was it genre? Either way, it was only words. But now, it is part of us. Unfortunately, book marketing is about feeding people the fare they already enjoy. We who write to touch some unpopular truth must hide it within entertainment. The literary crowd will conjure up objections of a thousand technical flaws of writing that points to a truth they would rather not see, but overlook the same and many more deficiencies in books from a perspective with which they agree. These days, they place point of view above craft, making them most difficult to reach and most dangerous to approach. Unless, of course, you are cleverly asserting in a new way something with which they already agree. I can far more easily reach someone reading for thrills or laughs with an unexpected truth than I can reach someone reading for some nebulous concept of literary quality whose main concern is whether their current worldview is validated in an innovative way. To say the same thing in a new way is not why I write.
After watching this I finally understand why I feel unsatisfied reading most of the fantasies on my shelf. What I'd been expected was something made me think but in fantasy form. For some reason I don't like reading real world settings but my taste is actually more towards literature fiction than genre fiction as they're today. Basically, I want more authentic and deeper discussions in fantasy... Guess that would be hard to get.
Excellent video, thank you. One of my all-time favourite authors is Daphne du Maurier. She definitely blurred the lines between literary and popular fiction, and between different genres.
I've found that literary novels or more precisely novels deemed to be literary are different enough from works we consider genre fiction to warrant the status of the argument that we can effectively establish a dichotomy between the two. Genre fiction for me can give me a buzz after reading but it's short term. It feels great but the feeling is ephemeral and the genre fiction I've read just doesn't have the oomph to make me want to think about it long term. However, the fiction we classify as literary has given me exactly the opposite feeling, antithetically so. The feelings are longer lasting, the work seems more pertinent and wide-reaching and I think about them for a longer period of time, constantly in some cases. The key thing though is the buzz remains regardless so this is why I like literary fiction more and why I believe the dichotomy is a useful heuristic tool.
Absolutely. I think that the debate often only really becomes a genuine debate when we talk about the grey areas. Are some authors treated unfairly because they are seen as not serious because they are genre? Totally. Are most? Absolutely not. Whether you prefer genre or literary or both, the divisions work well. People tend to fall into one or another camp and those who like both will often use the division to their benefit, when choosing a present or what they themselves are in the mood for reading. The notion that it is either possible or desirable to break down the dichotomy between the two fictional forms is delusional. (With the caveat that we would should evaluate writers more fairly)
I also think it depends on what genre books you've read, cause there so many genre books that are as thought provoking, amazingly written and imaginative as literary fiction like work from grrm, Tolkien, Le Guin, Steven Erikson, Herbert and many more.
One of the great genre (entertainment) novels is also one of the great works of world literature: The Lord of the Rings Here's another one: one of the greatest novels in the horror genre of the last several decades... The Exorcist, which I consider literature.
This video was made in 2018. When describing dystopia, an empty toilet paper roll was displayed. Flash forward to 2020... Great video! Amazing channel!
While I believe I would be doing a disservice to my readers without adding nuance, meaning, and heart to my work, I also experienced the agony of trying to box myself into literary value. For the longest time, I only wrote avant-grarde and artsy work, and every story I produced felt like passing a kidney stone, in addition to it being the same pretentious drivel over and over again. It was only when I allowed myself to write what I wanted that I could produce anything at all, let alone anything that could bring something of substance to the table.
I really think that large, sweeping plots allow more freedom for characterization, but popular expectations can pigeonhole writers away from novelty... In a novel.
Thank you for finally answering my internal doubts about the genre of my book. I have written a literary novel. Back to the agents I go... Deciding on genre is a dark art!
I feel like I'm torn down the middle when it comes to this debate. I like stories with more fantastical elements, but I love beautiful, lush prose and character-driven plot like nothing else. I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards magical realism. I love the works of Angela Carter and Jeanette Winterson because they balance fantastical elements with beautiful prose and experimental style.
One often ignored thing about being into literary fiction is that you tend to acquire certain standards in regards to the quality of prose, density and originality of ideas, etc. that actually make a lot of genre fiction hard to read. I can still read Pratchett, for example, but someone like Karpyshin is off the table at this point.
If there is an argument for the "superiority" of literary fiction it is this. I can't read genre fiction for this reason. Though I listen to all music types and have friends who don't understand how I listen to classical music and crappy pop haha
Nothing beats the mixture. P.S.: my thoughts are that Douglas Adams and Neil Gaiman perfected the mixture between both ends of the spectrum whilst never reaching them face-first. Now, on the side we have pleasure in reading, on the other, we have challenge. I can escape into linguistic and philosophical questioning just as much as I can really dive into speculative worlds. It is _not_ about escapism vs growth or anything of the like. It is about how much a text wants to flow vs how much it demands me to stop and savor it. And that pertains to any and every text in existence, irrespective of to which category it fits. It is a property of (written) language as a whole. Besides, every text is contextual, it should go without saying.
It seems to me like "literary fiction" and "genre fiction" are misnomers. 'Cause, well, isn't "literary fiction" a genre of fiction? But as long as there's some understanding what the different categories are, it doesn't matter too much. We give things names to help define them and to facilitate communication. Humans are all about wanting to define and categorize things. And in art, where do we draw lines? Where can we? Distinctions in that area get blurry, which is probably related to why this video exists. I totally agree with you that writers should just write what they want to, regardless of genres. Don't let them box you in--unless your aim is to make a very genre-y story. I feel like genres should be descriptive, not prescriptive. I've read of distinctions between high and epic fantasy, and that doesn't at all affect how I write anything. It's just a label I can slap on to describe what I'm doing to others. Mildly unrelated: I read The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway some years ago, and it changed me fundamentally. The minimalism of his writing was intoxicating. It sent me on a path pursuing elegance in my own writing: saying the most with the least. I made a huge stride in my efforts right before I fell out of touch with writing... The prologue for "War for the Sun" (which I am reconsidering the prologue status of) remains my greatest achievement. I wonder if I'll ever be able to write like that again.
A number of articles contend that literary fiction is indeed its own genre, especially from a marketing perspective. Humans do love to slap labels on things as a way of better understanding abstract concepts. That's a good point about a book's genre being defined after a story is written rather than before; many times, I think writers mislabel their own work, and it's editors or readers that provide the more accurate label. Maybe you should pick up more of Hemingway's work and see if that sparks the same inspirational feeling. :)
I've toyed with tracking down more of Hemingway's work for years, but it's never panned out. And now that the very thought of reading books induces crippling anxiety... Maybe one day.
Books are a commitment of time and energy that I just don't have in me currently/anymore. I feel like I'll either be trapped by them or fail yet again at trying to get through them. (I have over the last several years become totally unreliable with commitments and promises.) I've also developed this sick propensity to not really let myself like or enjoy things. Things tend to fall apart or somehow not work out, and then I'm just left disappointed and with all the energy I poured into whatever it was going to waste. If I don't care, I can't be disappointed.
Other people have described feelings similar to yours about reading, and I'm sorry to hear that you've had to go through that, too. I hope that someday your love for reading will be reinvigorated! Listening to audiobooks and reading aloud to others has really helped me finish what I start.
Your final comment is one of the main reasons I write... Fiction is never real but feelings are. After listening to this discussion, I feel as though I understand more about myself. While I naively placed my writing preferences firmly in the romantic fiction genre, I feel like my desire to dive deep into character thoughts and their emotional experiences leads me to embrace literary elements. It does indeed feel like a spectrum, and while I agree that we should write the most compelling story we can, the place where understanding where we lay on this spectrum as authors is in discovery. As a relatively new author (with two self-published novels that are probably 60% genre and 40% literary (if that's possible to assign), knowing where to find readers who are willing to take a chance on you and your style seems to be tightly tied to how you present your book (in terms of cover, blurb, and perhaps most importantly, categories). Do you agree, and do you have any recommendations on how to navigate these uncertain waters? Side note: This video alone has earned a subscribe and notification from one intrigued and interested author who still doesn't know whether he's genre or literary, probably both ;-)
Thank you for your thoughtful comment and for subscribing! Yes, I believe categories and genre labels are crucial for reaching the right audience. A lot of strongly negative reactions I've seen to well-written books have been due to misguided or misled expectations; the blurb might advertise an action-packed thriller and yet what the reader gets is a quiet character study. Many readers enjoy character studies, but it feels like false advertising if they get something different than what's on the tin. With traditional publishing, blurbs and covers are oftentimes outside the author's control, as it's the publishers who create the marketing materials. As you well know, a big benefit of self-publishing is that you have full control over how your book is portrayed in marketing, so you can make sure to advertise it accurately! I think comp titles can be effective, too, as long as they don't involve overly popular comparisons like Harry Potter or Game of Thrones (or "The Notebook," for a romance comparison). Providing examples of books that have a similar feel to your own is like saying, "If you liked X, you'll probably like my book..." Regardless of the label, a well-written book is a well-written book. Keep writing (and publishing)! :)
If you were to create catagories for different elements or aspects of writing, and then score each one, litterary fiction would almost always come out far bellow fantasy and scifi. Fantasy and Sci-fi contain all of the element lit does, but they also contain more, many catagories where lit would get zeros. In the case of sci fi, it is often dealing with cutting edge philosophy and ethics of a changing world across the whole of society, while lit fic is dealing often with social drama that these characters should have dealt with in jr high, but they someone became adults that still haven't dealt with it. Yes, they both have their place, and I love words and language for their own sake. But, take Gatsby for example, I love the book, but if someone thinks that a story of a bunch of people with questionably morality who treat eacher like crap is 'higher' than a sci-fi book which is dealing with the ethic of altering genetics, or using ai-based algos to accuse people of pre-crime, then that person is wrong. There is simply no objective way to claim that something like Gatsby is higher than Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, or even the Blade Runner script.
Well authors like Gene Wolfe, Ursula K. Le Guin and Mary Shelly is up there amogst the greatest of writers. To consider there works less literary or serious because it's genre seemes ridiculous. That said there are of course many more Martins and Sandersons amogst genre writers then there are Le Guins.
This was truly an insightful video, I always found myself to be torn between these two fiction types and now I know both of it in depth which will truly help me to make my choice. Also, you have a great voice which is soothing and captivating. Subscribing you right away.
One of my favorite books is Sally Rooney's "Normal People." There are clear elements of romance in it, but it is very heavily driven by individual character development rather than being a generic cookie-cutter book about star-crossed lovers. One of my problems with a lot of fantasy I read as a kid was that it followed the same model: the chosen one must rise up to defeat the dark lord and save a world full of fantastical creatures and magic. It just gets old. I don't think one is better than the other. I just know that I much prefer stories where the characters drive the plot over stories where the plot drives the characters, if that makes sense.
Why not have both? Is it too hard? Ive never got that. I read Sanderson, Abercrombie, and Rothfusd as much as I read Steinbeck, McCarthy, and Faulkner. There is a clear distinction between the two groups. What I crave is a blend of the two. It drives me nuts. Its like, I love bananas and I love ice cream. Why are banana splits so rare? They're out there sure, but not enough in my estimation. Maybe thats why I became a writer. I dont know.
A wonderful summation of the topic! Your conclusion echoes my own view about using elements from genre and literary fiction. After all, before these categories were developed, named and separated into different camps, the ancient Greeks (to stick to western writing) told stories that drew inspiration from mythical figures steeped in deep and weighty truths about ‘the human condition’. Yet such stories were full of murder and monsters, making them endlessly exciting and fascinating. I don’t see why our writing can’t draw from the same well.
I graduated with a Creative Writing Minor ~ 17 years ago, but I don't act like an elitist book reader or a pretentious author. Those of that ilk are SICKENING. I like being entertained and want my readers to be FLOORED, while being entertained by simply READING my work.
As an english major, i find the notion of a hierarchy between the supposedly lowbrow genre fiction and highbrow literary fiction annoying. The handmaids tale is a great example of how the two categories are not clearly differentiated. It is a dystopia novel that is primarily concerned with the main characters' internal reactions to the external conflicts she is faced with. I would say that all fiction that gets published is character driven. Otherwise, there would be no reason to perfer one dystopia from another. If you prefer the handmaids tale over 1984, it is beacuse you like the characters from the one novel better than the other. Also, just call literary fiction realistic fiction. If you don't, it's like saying some books are not literature while others are, and that doing that seems to misrepresent the definition of literature, writing that is nonutilitarian, fiction/narrative vs pursausive and expository.
I've totally had a literary fiction person tell me that Erikson's Deadhouse Gates was 'one of those books'. I tried to defend its premise before I gave up. He wasn't going to change his mind because of what I said.
The more I think about the characteristics of the two categories you presented, the more I realize that the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe is literary fiction with SF tropes instead of SF.
I think the term "literary fiction" should be changed to "poetic fiction", with the emphasis being on the novel as a crafted object, self-conscious of form, and concerned more with theme than plot. Genre fiction can contain moments of poetic insight, and is obviously also conscious of form, but the theme of genre fiction is the particular genre itself. It is more like an aesthetic exercise, playing within certain conventions in order to facilitate an engaging read. I guess what is missing from the conversation is the fact that these different approaches to fiction mirror different approaches to life itself. Some people live introspective lives focused on the minutiae and the beauty of their world, searching for meaning. Some people take meaning for granted, and enjoy things like board games and sports. Most people are a bit of both....and we need stories that speak to both sides. In the end, there is only one valid distinction: is it good or not?
I definitely see the point of breaking the partition. Truthfully, I tend to gift genre fiction to people who read a bit less, and give literary fiction to my closest, 'frequent reader' friends.
By your definitions of Genre/Literary, my novel can be thought of as *Small-Scale Drama intertwined with Large Scale Drama, Internal Conflict intertwined with Large Scale External Conflict.* Yeah... um... my novel is screwed! LOL!!!
That could definitely work well! It's all about the execution. If the story is primarily going to be about the characters, then make sure they're interesting and layered, with plenty of internal/external conflict. My best advice is to read other sci-fi novels categorized as "character-driven," such as "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro and "Altered Carbon" by Richard K. Morgan.
IMO the binary distinction between literary and genre fiction has been harmful for both, most genre fictions tend to become formulaic and trope-y until someone artistic and creative breaks the mold, and literary fiction avoiding genre aesthetics have caused itself to die out from public conscience for the most part if that distinction didn't exist then literature in general would've been in a better place, genre fiction wouldn't be in it's own formulaic bubble, instead taking experimental and artistic structures, themes and stories much like literary fiction, while literary fiction would contribute to some of the greatest sci-fi, mystery, fantasy and romantic novels, the best novels are sometimes the ones that defy the genre vs literary duality
When you read all of these literary magazines you see stories that are absolutely beautifully written...but BORING BORING BORING! Many of these award winning or Pushcart winning stories are BORING BORING BORING!
I would consider "The Giver" to be genre fiction, as it deals with a sci-fi world, and it's considered children's fiction in terms of audience. Literary fiction tends to be mainly written for an adult audience. However, "The Giver" is still a children's classic and a wonderful story! :)
When you said accessible genre writing my mind immediately went to Mistborn before you brought it up. Sanderson is so good at writing clear and concise prose. I’ve heard him description prose as the window you view the story through and literary is often a stained glassed window while his is just a plane of glass.
Huh. I just learned literary fiction is different from genre fiction. In fact, I thought it was a mix between genre and just having a certain general fiction be a bit more... Literary. I feel so dumb. But this video made me realize that as much as I consume so many genre fiction, it was always the literary ones that stuck by me. In fact, I was lost because I wanted to write a story similar to the literary fictions I've read but molded it to be more genre fiction since it's what's always around me. Guess that answers my question on how to write a certain story. Or two. Time to categorize which of my books are literary and read them more. Man do I love productive procrastination.
The prejudice against genre fiction may be disappearing. My MFA workshop classes accept genre fiction and we have specific classes on science fiction, romance, and magical realism.
Hi thank you for sharing your video on genre verses literally. I sometimes find myself lost when it come to finding reading materials that appeals to me. I recently started writing short stories of my own, experimenting with different characters. I write romantic short stories that keeps me up all night making sure that my characters find love and live happily ever after. I know that it’s probably boring for those looking for more depth or drama. There is plenty of it outside my door. The world that I’ve created is safe for me and for those looking for the same thing. I may not get an award for my writing style but I’m satisfied and happy with my work. Still under construction.
Okay, so, first I thought, maybe my current project is dipping its toes into literary fiction because there's a philosophical topic that keeps coming up and strongly influencing the self-perception of one of my main characters. Now I think maybe it's 100% literary fiction because it doesn't actually have a plot outside of the emotional development that happens while my three characters interact with each other. I'm confused.
I appreciate this channel and I'm glad I got to this video. I've been working on a novel, unsure of my audience, but sure I'm still telling the story that it is. This helped me determine that it'll probably fall under magical realism.
Thank you for this video. You have the most wonderful way of explaining and the editing and your voice are both so clear and absorbing. I am trying to hard to fit my recently completed novel into a category and it is ridiculously confusing with so many genres and sub -genres never mind trying to decide if is it genre or literary. On the one hand I don't feel qualified to describe my writing as traditionally literary - it isn't completely full of highfalutin prose and high brow thinking. But, on the other hand, it seems more character driven than fast paced plot so not typically genre fiction either. Now I can see that there is a spectrum as you've said and although I'm still a little confused on how best to categorise my own particular story I do see that it can still be character driven but fit into genre fiction - thank you so much!
I didn't really even think about what category my book would be in to be honest. It is a fantasy drama, with a lot of movement and plot, but at the same time I really like to write close to the characters, display their inner conflicts, their relationships with each other. I love emotion in fiction, and seeing a world through the characters eyes without missing out on the world collapsing around them. I never necessarily really thought of those things as separate ideals. So yeah both categories could hugely benefit from each other in my opinion
I am a staunch Genre reader and writer, I won't say it's better than Literary fiction, but I will say it's better for me and my taste. To each their own, always.
Amazing video and analysis. I would say also that movies like “Arrival” and “Annihilation” (as well as their novel counterparts) are a good exemple of a genre story with a great use of literary fiction devices, such as human condition and character development.
Annihilation is a great example of that. The film did an excellent job of capturing that quality, as well. Both of my parents watched it, my dad being a sci-fi fan, and missed the message. They labeled it "strange." I labeled it "brilliant."
I like genre fiction which is thought provocative, which introduce to new ideas like 'The Last question' by Isaac Schkimov or 1984. However my taste for typical formula/plot driven fiction has wore off. But I can't appreciate literary fiction either as sometimes I can't grasp it.
It seems, from what you've said, the content of my novel is literary, the style and pace genre fiction. I believe the plot is a good one, but the characters and their shifting relationships, their motivations and the personal psychology behind them are a big part of the story.
I dislike books that shoehorn themselves into a certain genre with all its tired tropes. I also dislike literary books because they feel too pretentious (and they're boring). A good book must be entertaining, compelling, and get you to look at life from a new angle.
Your speech is very balanced and you are not absolute at all on your words, which I appreciate quite a bit. It's what anyone likes and what they want to read. In Greek literature, for instance, there are many books written with a plentiful vocabulary, and they're not much of reader consumption. Nevertheless, there is character development and action. And they're books written before the 20th century. Of course, some of them, don't have much action and focus more on the description of landscapes. Personally, one of my favourite ones is Papadiamantis' "Η φόνισσα" (The killer woman in English) It is considered one of the leading novels of Greek literature. It's Thriller/Mystery, has huge character development and action. And it's a book published in 1903! In general, I think that European literature has a lot to show. I'm just talking specifically about my country.
Fantastical lenses make it easier to see truths we'd rather not see or discuss. The three things you're not supposed to discuss in polite company are Religion, Politics, and Money. But if you want to talk about those things it's far easier to have that discussion through the medium of sc-fi/fantasy.
I prefer genre fiction. Sci Fi, dramatic, dystopian, romantic love story of two people in a dark world. A protagonist fighting an authoritarian tyrannical government, returning to the people who they have to persuade to join their side. I know that sounds very cliche but I love it. Give me Divergent any day. I’m just not going to pick up a Jane Austen or Shakespeare in my life. I don’t want to learn Elizabethan English in iambic pentametre, and read about Mr Darcy and the Willoughby, no thanks. I will be bored out of my dreams. I don’t need to learn about themes and literary prose. I love non-fiction and religious scripture, and if I want to be educated I will turn to those topics. David Graber for Anthropology, Eliade for comparative religion, Freud for psychoanalysis, Jung for analytic psychology, Marx for revolutionary thought, Bhagavad Gita for Vaishnava theology, Quran for Islamic ideas. Not gonna read Jane Austen, or Moby Dick, no thanks. I read the Tanakh, and I love the story of Moses Moses, my hero. Saves the Israelites. Moses spends his life in the desert. Moses to Yahweh,. Moses leaves Egypt, deals with Pharaoh. Moses talks to the burning bush. Moses splits the sea into two. Moses, fantastic. Still, I will not be touching any genre fiction, perhaps except Dostoyevski. Dostoyevski because he has theological and existential themes, which I like. But generally, no. I’m not touching literary fiction. Except Dante’s Inferno, because I like religious stories. Absolutely no Jane Austen. I would rather Dune and the Bene Gesserit, Paul Atreides than Jane Austen. Goodbye Jane Austen. Okay, Macbeth was a good play. But I still won’t be reading anything else further by Shakespeare, did that in secondary school, won’t do it again. I choose genre fiction. Harry Potter, Divergent. No thanks Jane Austen, please stop boring me with Mr Willoughby, and Moby Dick. I MAY read James Joyce, because I want to torture myself with difficult books like his work and Infinite Jest. Maybe I’ll read Jane Austen when I’m 50. But seriously, the importance of Jane Austen gives me severe anxiety. And I feel pressure to read her. I would rather Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.
I found out about this "dichotomy" just recently when I was compiling a TBR for a reading challenge of 1 book a week per theme. My initial reaction was, "Aren't all books literary?" Looks like the distinction is what would be considered literature as a work of art. Admittedly, I'm a bit of a snob. There's a book from my country which won 2 prestigious national literary awards but I dismissed it as genre fiction.
To be frank, given the age of this video, I'm not sure what my motivations are for commenting; yet, I shall do so. "Literary" fiction has only been around since the early nineties, the term having been coined by some 'bright young thing' to try to develop a new genre that spoke to a particular demographic. Until then, anything could be considered, what I shall call, high-art fiction. John le Carre wrote spy novels, but no one would argue with the highly developed craft of his novels. You, yourself, showed Garcia-Marquez, I would add Borges, Calvino, & Bulgakov to that list, whom all dealt, in one form or another, with fantasy. Even the Surrealists were trying only to get to the root of the humans' experience in the world, just in a way that that would shock the reader out of their normality. Umberto Eco, Professor of Medieval History & Semiotics, also wrote Baudolino, about a knight on a quest to find Prester John--surely a fantasy, considering all the strange characters, beings, & monsters his Protagonist met on his journey. It is certainly a work of the highest esteem. It was, perhaps, ironic, that at the same time as the literary genre was created, I decided to up my reading game. I simply wanted more than what I was getting out of fantasy/science fiction being published at the time. So I went back to the beginning & started reading Ancient Greek myths, tales, & dramas. I have slowly worked my way forward. As it turns out, I enjoy a challenge, &, perhaps even more, learned to enjoy a really well written sentence. (If you are a writer I would suggest Stanley Fish's book How to Write a Sentence). A well written sentence doesn't mean opening a thesaurus, but choosing the proper word for whatever it is you are trying to convey, given the setting, characters, & time of your writing. I would suggest anything written by Chester Himes to see how it is done; should you prefer something thicker, then take up Broch's The Death of Virgil (which is basically a five hundred page prose poem). I want to re-read a sentence or paragraph, not because I didn't understand it, but because it is so wonderfully crafted, that I don't want to let it go. Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser is still one of my favorites. There are now over a million words, either invented or imported, in the English language. Search for them, hunt them down, find them & use them. Grow to cherish them. If I am reading a fantasy that is based, to some degree or other, on the medieval times of Europe, I do not want to be assaulted by the contemporary vernacular. Find the great older books that were published before the Literary genre was encapsulated in the MFA churn-house. Read The Master & Margarita & you will find the craft of writing heightened & honed to the very finest degree.
Most people don't know or care about this, there are only readers and writers. Publishers don't care what they print as long as it sells and in a world where people are reading less, it's good that people read anything at all.
I think that's true to some extent, but publishers do care about genre categorizations for marketing purposes. They use those labels to reach the audience that's most likely to buy and enjoy the book. Literary agents often have style preferences, with some preferring more "commercial" fiction and others wanting lyrical prose.
This is the same thing as the Thomas Crowne Affair (the remake, not the Jewison version); value in art is determined by the elite few, which turns out, is incapable of distinguishing real art from fake art in the end. It is all in the eye of the beholder; I find as much value and entertainment in Stephen King's "It" (which was a relief to finish reading) than in Tolstoy's "War and Peace."
Thank you for this in depth video. I am currently writing my first literary fiction short story and wanted to get a clearer understanding (as I typically do straight fantasy fiction involving anything from shapeshifters to sci-if dystopia and anthro realms lol) and this explained so much. For starters I didn’t even realize this was a debated issue. I figured people judged a story based on how well it was written and the execution of character, plot and thematic messaging. Definitely more too it than that!
I think I understand the dichotomy a bit better, and I do agree that certain genres rely too much on pre-fabricated recipes; romance, espionage, and judicial thrillers. As much as I like Le Carré; there is still nothing more than the following ingredients; the mole, Switzerland, the friend who does time for the crime another has committed, and the idea that the hero is becoming like the adversary. And from how many angles can John Grisham explore the intricacies of legal drama? The only books he hasn't written (yet) are "The Bailiff", "The Stenographer" and "The Paralegal". To me, genre is a way to say things that are not possible of saying in a certain context, for instance, sci-fi; in sci-fi, it is possible to have an inter-racial kiss, because all of the action is happening in the year 3000, so, if you're in 1968, nothing to worry about! Genre is about having an intangible concept as an actor of the plot; trust and mistrust in espionage, love and indifference in romance, right and wrong in legal dramas... Does the difference between the two simply means writing style? In this case, let me quote Hemingway; "...he thinks big words mean big emotions." Then there is no real difference between Wuthering Heights and an airport novel!
I mean recently we see the distinction between literary fiction vs commercial fiction not genre fiction. There can be literary fantasy books like Sapkowski’s Witcher series and Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. Both are examples of literary fantasy that managed to gain commercial success despite not following the rules of commercial fiction
Girl you make me want to kiss your voice. Brilliant narration with insightful content. Non-pretentious and at the same time immersive. I say: job well done👍👍
absolutely obsessed with the way you go the whole video with a polite, calming voice, speaking in well thought out sentences and a reasonable tone, only to end the video with "there's not point shitting on other people's tastes." incredible 10/10
I've got zero problem with lit fic, I just can't stand the people who exclusively fetishize it. I've known a few. They are, without exception, Dunning Kruger types who don't get that they don't get it. Especially when it comes to SF -- mature SF often engages with legitimate questions of tech and the nature of being human. Side note: another genre that gets shit on a lot by lit fic exclusivists is espionage/techno thriller. Sure, there's a lot of action hero Tom Clancy type stuff, but there's a number of amazing political espionage thrillers that tackle mass surveillance, ethical questions, and the problems of ideology.
I like fantasy settings and complex characters and interactions between them even if they take precedent over the plot but I hate flowery prose. If I have to sit with a dictionary and then read a summary on the internet and think all throughout yhe night to understand a book, I'm not interested in such a book. For me, a novel in first a form of entertainment. Improvement and growth are secondary or irrelevant.
I say just look at Shakespeare. Sensational Elizabethan entertainment to get the groundlings going, while at the same time, the one most complex works into the human condition in history.
Thought-provoking! In fact, I've just now realized what the unpleasant itch I had at the back of my skull was about a kid's book I wrote is. It's genre fiction - but for some reason I gave it a much more literary fiction ending... Hmm. I'm going to have to rethink that. Not to say that it can't be done, but it's good to have the differences pointed out to me! I also feel that may be the problem I had with The Book of Strange New Things, by Michel Faber, which I finished recently. It seems to be science fiction to start with. Clearly a genre book. But the further on you go, the more you realise he'd prefer to write literary fiction. In the end, I felt he'd written many interesting words, but no story. I don't care for books that are trying to be all artistic - or at least, that's how they seem to defend their inability to close any of the "plot"-lines by the end of the book. That's not artistic, it's not poignant, it's just lazy writing (to me.) Okay, occasionally a book can leave a major thing open to wondering by the reader - like at the end of the movies Total Recall and Inception. Was it all an implanted dream? (In both cases.) In both cases there's been sufficient closure of the various plot lines that you (the reader or viewer,) feel that the story has gone somewhere, and left us in a new and satisfying place. And the still-open-unanswered-question is just a teaser to get you thinking as you leave the cinema (or book, as the case may be.) But there are no endings in The Book of Strange New Things. And I found that incredibly annoying. And unsatisfying. I guess I wasn't reading it (primarily) for interesting prose, but for an enjoyable story. I agree with you that it is possible to have both. I'm thinking of something like Golding's Lord of the Flies, and (maybe,) Conrad's Heart of Darkness (to an extent.) I should add that many people really loved The Book of Strange New Things. But not me.
What's interesting is that this distinction only seems prominent in the west. In anime, for example, many stories explore the human condition while also having dragons and knights (berserk)
this issue always seems to run a lot deeper than anyone realizes. for example, this idea of literary sentences taking “more work to understand." sure, this all resembles an issue of market segmentation at first glance, but it’s more related to educational systems making literature inaccessible through outdated instruction. some of the greatest literature of the last 2 centuries isn’t inherently more challenging and was enjoyed by a wide demographic at the time of release. the problem is that schools and societies haven’t cultivated strong readers in the last century, which isn't the fault of readers or would-be readers. publishing houses swooped in on that and segmented the market to capitalize upon this problem-that’s what it REALLY means when we say "literary fiction is hard." there's no actual distinction between literary and genre other than marketability, which changes decade to decade.
I am a relatively inexperienced fiction reader. Only started reading regularly thanks to my gf buddy reading IC's monthly books with me. I have definitely already come in with a vague understanding what I like and not from other media but am also now seeing how that reflects on books and it's a mess to figure out. The books I enjoyed a lot leaned more towards complex and thematic. A lot of the books I didn't like was not because of being bad or atleadt offensively so but more that I didn't feel pushed and stimulated enough. I like being able to days later have a reflection on something I read and a lot of what's considered young adult oriented is entertaining but not captivating in the way I am looking for. I got told that I might just be into literary fiction but one book i really loved that I read by myself on the side was dune which is not seen as literary cause it's sci-fi??? It's so difficult for someone who does not yet have familiarity with differing authors or the trends of specific publishers to navigate the space to find those types of books without being locked to specific aesthetics.
If it's well written, then it's literary regardless of what it's talking about. The best example is The Hobbit. However, a book can be well written and unbearably boring. Then it qualifies as art 😄😄
I learned a long time ago that what you produce and how it's viewed by others are two completely different things. I learned this with my painting, and it holds true for writing. Just remember, we all have a different perspective.
Problem is literary snobs try to force it on genre dudes, it's so frustrating. If you don't force it, then it will happen naturally. I wasn't the type who would listen to Oprah style music, but as i watched various different anime, i grew to appreciate Oprah, to the point where i occasionally hear a random one for the sake of it.
I'm a little irked by the debate. To quote Rodney King, 'Can't we all just get along?' (this vid was as good as any I've ever seen by the way) My good friend and collaborator, who may be the best writer I've ever read, once told me a novel I'd written was completely different than anything she'd ever read. And she's read everything. In one way, I felt pretty good about that. I thought of it as a badge of courage. In another way, it scares the living poo out of me. I want things to be fresh and unique, but I don't want them to be so different readers won't find a frame of reference. In a way, uniqueness and freshness can sometimes be mutually exclusive with familiarity, yet all three are important. It's neither fish nor fowl, but it feels legitimate to me. She calls this 'Literary Lite', a term I'm really not fond of. I prefer 'General Fiction', although that's a term I'm also not fond of. Neither designation is descriptive enough to be understood. You just can't pin this down. And most of the Internet 'experts and gurus' don't know that either designation even exists. So it's not really genre and it's not really literary, but what it definitely is not is half one and half the other. That would be half-assing it, and I prefer to whole-ass things. And I prefer to push the envelope. My goal is to make sure that I have all of the conventions and obligatory moments of the global genre, as well as as many that can fit that belong to the subplots. On top of that, there are a number of moments that I think fit the concept of literary surprisingly closely. So I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm trying to include the best of both worlds without it being a mishmosh or a mashup. Of course, that was never my original strategy. It's just what came out when I wrote. But the problem there is it's not easy to define, so an elevator pitch can't really do it justice.
I'm shocked at how many literary agents outright state they aren't interested in genre fiction. I already have a number of things I gotta watch out for in my searches; "wokism" being chief among them. Literary fiction strikes me as so limiting. It's like saying, "Breeds of horses are not true horses, give me horses." Umm... huh??? The more I hear about "literary fiction," the more it comes across as the "slice-of-life" genre.
Hi there, viewers! You can read an adapted text version of this video on Medium. medium.com/@quotidianwriter/literary-vs-genre-fiction-9173e11e77df
I personally think that both are equally amazing and that they both teach us about the human experience and the writing process.
I'm just reading and writing for fun, what's all this about?
Awkwardly enough, despite having been a reader since I was capable of reading and having amassed a large library of books... I've never considered before now that there might be a difference. Most books use tropes, and most good books also make you think deeper. I'd never considered that belonging to a genre made a work automatically lesser, because I'd never considered that literary works weren't in a genre, themselves.
I suppose there may be a dissonance in regards to definitions. To me, genres are a superficial yet extremely convenient categorization system - almost everything belongs to one, and some belong to several. As for literature - I'd simply assumed that all books were literature, and that those whose popularity and message withstood the test of time were "classics."
Apparently, these are not the standard definitions, but as of yesterday, they were the only ones I knew.
I believe that both writing styles should blend more often. Books should feel good as you read them, as well as have a great story.
That'll be a nightmare for publishers!
where does "catch 22" fit
truth
fiction
youre absolutely amazing, your voice is clear and soothing, your analysis is neither biased nor unfocused, and every topic you cover is in a perfect balance between 'listing' information and connecting them in (not too ambitious, pretentious) thought-provoking ways. im always happy when you upload a new video bc i know ill learn smth cool then, so ... thank youuuuu
I guess I'm not as tuned into the literary world as I thought I was. I didn't even realize this was a debate. Personally, I feel a writer shouldn't be scared to embrace the fantastical just as much as they shouldn't be afraid to let the pace break way in exchange for more powerful characters and setting. There's tons more to say than this, of course, but they all adhere to similar themes of which I just exhibited. Neither side is without complexities the other would do well to learn from. It really sucks that this is even being debated in the first place, I would've thought it self-evident that all works hold naturally inherent value. Oh well, I won't let it get to me. This too shall pass. Oh, and another sensational video by the way. I've yet to find another UA-camr as well-versed in the writing side of things, or at least in divulging it to their viewers, as you are. It is well appreciated, and I eagerly await your next video to come.
Literary fiction is a genre
change my mind
No need for _me_ to change your mind because I absolutely agree, haha.
no, you're right
In the end, writing is just words on a page; the rest is an illusion. If the magic works, we wonder how the rabbit came out of the hat, whether it is a street performer or a famous magician on a big stage. If the magic happens, the words, the style, even the man behind the curtain, doesn't matter. We close the book and can never go back to who we were before we picked it up. Was it literary or was it genre? Either way, it was only words. But now, it is part of us.
Unfortunately, book marketing is about feeding people the fare they already enjoy. We who write to touch some unpopular truth must hide it within entertainment. The literary crowd will conjure up objections of a thousand technical flaws of writing that points to a truth they would rather not see, but overlook the same and many more deficiencies in books from a perspective with which they agree. These days, they place point of view above craft, making them most difficult to reach and most dangerous to approach. Unless, of course, you are cleverly asserting in a new way something with which they already agree.
I can far more easily reach someone reading for thrills or laughs with an unexpected truth than I can reach someone reading for some nebulous concept of literary quality whose main concern is whether their current worldview is validated in an innovative way. To say the same thing in a new way is not why I write.
Beautifully said!
Girl, you keep out doing yourself with each subsequent video. Keep writing.
After watching this I finally understand why I feel unsatisfied reading most of the fantasies on my shelf. What I'd been expected was something made me think but in fantasy form. For some reason I don't like reading real world settings but my taste is actually more towards literature fiction than genre fiction as they're today. Basically, I want more authentic and deeper discussions in fantasy... Guess that would be hard to get.
Excellent video, thank you. One of my all-time favourite authors is Daphne du Maurier. She definitely blurred the lines between literary and popular fiction, and between different genres.
Absolutely. DuMaurier’s great.
But honestly, I think it's all subjective.
I've found that literary novels or more precisely novels deemed to be literary are different enough from works we consider genre fiction to warrant the status of the argument that we can effectively establish a dichotomy between the two. Genre fiction for me can give me a buzz after reading but it's short term. It feels great but the feeling is ephemeral and the genre fiction I've read just doesn't have the oomph to make me want to think about it long term. However, the fiction we classify as literary has given me exactly the opposite feeling, antithetically so. The feelings are longer lasting, the work seems more pertinent and wide-reaching and I think about them for a longer period of time, constantly in some cases. The key thing though is the buzz remains regardless so this is why I like literary fiction more and why I believe the dichotomy is a useful heuristic tool.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment!
Absolutely. I think that the debate often only really becomes a genuine debate when we talk about the grey areas. Are some authors treated unfairly because they are seen as not serious because they are genre? Totally. Are most? Absolutely not. Whether you prefer genre or literary or both, the divisions work well. People tend to fall into one or another camp and those who like both will often use the division to their benefit, when choosing a present or what they themselves are in the mood for reading. The notion that it is either possible or desirable to break down the dichotomy between the two fictional forms is delusional. (With the caveat that we would should evaluate writers more fairly)
I feel exactly the same. Well said.
I also think it depends on what genre books you've read, cause there so many genre books that are as thought provoking, amazingly written and imaginative as literary fiction like work from grrm, Tolkien, Le Guin, Steven Erikson, Herbert and many more.
One of the great genre (entertainment) novels is also one of the great works of world literature: The Lord of the Rings
Here's another one: one of the greatest novels in the horror genre of the last several decades... The Exorcist, which I consider literature.
This video was made in 2018. When describing dystopia, an empty toilet paper roll was displayed.
Flash forward to 2020...
Great video! Amazing channel!
While I believe I would be doing a disservice to my readers without adding nuance, meaning, and heart to my work, I also experienced the agony of trying to box myself into literary value. For the longest time, I only wrote avant-grarde and artsy work, and every story I produced felt like passing a kidney stone, in addition to it being the same pretentious drivel over and over again. It was only when I allowed myself to write what I wanted that I could produce anything at all, let alone anything that could bring something of substance to the table.
I really think that large, sweeping plots allow more freedom for characterization, but popular expectations can pigeonhole writers away from novelty... In a novel.
Thank you for finally answering my internal doubts about the genre of my book. I have written a literary novel. Back to the agents I go... Deciding on genre is a dark art!
I feel like I'm torn down the middle when it comes to this debate. I like stories with more fantastical elements, but I love beautiful, lush prose and character-driven plot like nothing else. I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards magical realism. I love the works of Angela Carter and Jeanette Winterson because they balance fantastical elements with beautiful prose and experimental style.
I'm just over here writing character driven fantasy stories...
One often ignored thing about being into literary fiction is that you tend to acquire certain standards in regards to the quality of prose, density and originality of ideas, etc. that actually make a lot of genre fiction hard to read. I can still read Pratchett, for example, but someone like Karpyshin is off the table at this point.
I'm familiar with that feeling, too.
If there is an argument for the "superiority" of literary fiction it is this. I can't read genre fiction for this reason. Though I listen to all music types and have friends who don't understand how I listen to classical music and crappy pop haha
Nothing beats the mixture.
P.S.: my thoughts are that Douglas Adams and Neil Gaiman perfected the mixture between both ends of the spectrum whilst never reaching them face-first. Now, on the side we have pleasure in reading, on the other, we have challenge. I can escape into linguistic and philosophical questioning just as much as I can really dive into speculative worlds. It is _not_ about escapism vs growth or anything of the like. It is about how much a text wants to flow vs how much it demands me to stop and savor it. And that pertains to any and every text in existence, irrespective of to which category it fits. It is a property of (written) language as a whole. Besides, every text is contextual, it should go without saying.
It seems to me like "literary fiction" and "genre fiction" are misnomers. 'Cause, well, isn't "literary fiction" a genre of fiction? But as long as there's some understanding what the different categories are, it doesn't matter too much. We give things names to help define them and to facilitate communication. Humans are all about wanting to define and categorize things. And in art, where do we draw lines? Where can we? Distinctions in that area get blurry, which is probably related to why this video exists.
I totally agree with you that writers should just write what they want to, regardless of genres. Don't let them box you in--unless your aim is to make a very genre-y story. I feel like genres should be descriptive, not prescriptive. I've read of distinctions between high and epic fantasy, and that doesn't at all affect how I write anything. It's just a label I can slap on to describe what I'm doing to others.
Mildly unrelated: I read The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway some years ago, and it changed me fundamentally. The minimalism of his writing was intoxicating. It sent me on a path pursuing elegance in my own writing: saying the most with the least. I made a huge stride in my efforts right before I fell out of touch with writing... The prologue for "War for the Sun" (which I am reconsidering the prologue status of) remains my greatest achievement. I wonder if I'll ever be able to write like that again.
A number of articles contend that literary fiction is indeed its own genre, especially from a marketing perspective. Humans do love to slap labels on things as a way of better understanding abstract concepts. That's a good point about a book's genre being defined after a story is written rather than before; many times, I think writers mislabel their own work, and it's editors or readers that provide the more accurate label. Maybe you should pick up more of Hemingway's work and see if that sparks the same inspirational feeling. :)
I've toyed with tracking down more of Hemingway's work for years, but it's never panned out. And now that the very thought of reading books induces crippling anxiety... Maybe one day.
What makes you anxious about reading? Is it the pressure of having to finish a book?
Books are a commitment of time and energy that I just don't have in me currently/anymore. I feel like I'll either be trapped by them or fail yet again at trying to get through them. (I have over the last several years become totally unreliable with commitments and promises.) I've also developed this sick propensity to not really let myself like or enjoy things. Things tend to fall apart or somehow not work out, and then I'm just left disappointed and with all the energy I poured into whatever it was going to waste. If I don't care, I can't be disappointed.
Other people have described feelings similar to yours about reading, and I'm sorry to hear that you've had to go through that, too. I hope that someday your love for reading will be reinvigorated! Listening to audiobooks and reading aloud to others has really helped me finish what I start.
Your final comment is one of the main reasons I write... Fiction is never real but feelings are. After listening to this discussion, I feel as though I understand more about myself. While I naively placed my writing preferences firmly in the romantic fiction genre, I feel like my desire to dive deep into character thoughts and their emotional experiences leads me to embrace literary elements. It does indeed feel like a spectrum, and while I agree that we should write the most compelling story we can, the place where understanding where we lay on this spectrum as authors is in discovery. As a relatively new author (with two self-published novels that are probably 60% genre and 40% literary (if that's possible to assign), knowing where to find readers who are willing to take a chance on you and your style seems to be tightly tied to how you present your book (in terms of cover, blurb, and perhaps most importantly, categories). Do you agree, and do you have any recommendations on how to navigate these uncertain waters? Side note: This video alone has earned a subscribe and notification from one intrigued and interested author who still doesn't know whether he's genre or literary, probably both ;-)
Thank you for your thoughtful comment and for subscribing! Yes, I believe categories and genre labels are crucial for reaching the right audience. A lot of strongly negative reactions I've seen to well-written books have been due to misguided or misled expectations; the blurb might advertise an action-packed thriller and yet what the reader gets is a quiet character study. Many readers enjoy character studies, but it feels like false advertising if they get something different than what's on the tin. With traditional publishing, blurbs and covers are oftentimes outside the author's control, as it's the publishers who create the marketing materials. As you well know, a big benefit of self-publishing is that you have full control over how your book is portrayed in marketing, so you can make sure to advertise it accurately!
I think comp titles can be effective, too, as long as they don't involve overly popular comparisons like Harry Potter or Game of Thrones (or "The Notebook," for a romance comparison). Providing examples of books that have a similar feel to your own is like saying, "If you liked X, you'll probably like my book..."
Regardless of the label, a well-written book is a well-written book. Keep writing (and publishing)! :)
If you were to create catagories for different elements or aspects of writing, and then score each one, litterary fiction would almost always come out far bellow fantasy and scifi. Fantasy and Sci-fi contain all of the element lit does, but they also contain more, many catagories where lit would get zeros. In the case of sci fi, it is often dealing with cutting edge philosophy and ethics of a changing world across the whole of society, while lit fic is dealing often with social drama that these characters should have dealt with in jr high, but they someone became adults that still haven't dealt with it. Yes, they both have their place, and I love words and language for their own sake. But, take Gatsby for example, I love the book, but if someone thinks that a story of a bunch of people with questionably morality who treat eacher like crap is 'higher' than a sci-fi book which is dealing with the ethic of altering genetics, or using ai-based algos to accuse people of pre-crime, then that person is wrong. There is simply no objective way to claim that something like Gatsby is higher than Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, or even the Blade Runner script.
Oh, and thanks for another amazing, thought provoking video =)
Your visuals are brilliant
Can't discern the boundaries
Well authors like Gene Wolfe, Ursula K. Le Guin and Mary Shelly is up there amogst the greatest of writers. To consider there works less literary or serious because it's genre seemes ridiculous.
That said there are of course many more Martins and Sandersons amogst genre writers then there are Le Guins.
This was truly an insightful video, I always found myself to be torn between these two fiction types and now I know both of it in depth which will truly help me to make my choice.
Also, you have a great voice which is soothing and captivating.
Subscribing you right away.
One of my favorite books is Sally Rooney's "Normal People." There are clear elements of romance in it, but it is very heavily driven by individual character development rather than being a generic cookie-cutter book about star-crossed lovers.
One of my problems with a lot of fantasy I read as a kid was that it followed the same model: the chosen one must rise up to defeat the dark lord and save a world full of fantastical creatures and magic. It just gets old.
I don't think one is better than the other. I just know that I much prefer stories where the characters drive the plot over stories where the plot drives the characters, if that makes sense.
Why not have both? Is it too hard? Ive never got that. I read Sanderson, Abercrombie, and Rothfusd as much as I read Steinbeck, McCarthy, and Faulkner. There is a clear distinction between the two groups. What I crave is a blend of the two. It drives me nuts. Its like, I love bananas and I love ice cream. Why are banana splits so rare? They're out there sure, but not enough in my estimation. Maybe thats why I became a writer. I dont know.
A wonderful summation of the topic! Your conclusion echoes my own view about using elements from genre and literary fiction. After all, before these categories were developed, named and separated into different camps, the ancient Greeks (to stick to western writing) told stories that drew inspiration from mythical figures steeped in deep and weighty truths about ‘the human condition’. Yet such stories were full of murder and monsters, making them endlessly exciting and fascinating. I don’t see why our writing can’t draw from the same well.
Excellent point!
thank you for your amazing Videos! love the subjects that you cover.
ua-cam.com/video/UtVJdPfm0F8/v-deo.html
Almost all of my work strives to have that lyrical weight under a B-movie aesthetic. So, this VS discussion is the crux of my discipline
This really helped. I've been stuck on what the differences are for a while. And your voice is really pleasant to listen to
I graduated with a Creative Writing Minor ~ 17 years ago, but I don't act like an elitist book reader or a pretentious author. Those of that ilk are SICKENING.
I like being entertained and want my readers to be FLOORED, while being entertained by simply READING my work.
As an english major, i find the notion of a hierarchy between the supposedly lowbrow genre fiction and highbrow literary fiction annoying. The handmaids tale is a great example of how the two categories are not clearly differentiated. It is a dystopia novel that is primarily concerned with the main characters' internal reactions to the external conflicts she is faced with. I would say that all fiction that gets published is character driven. Otherwise, there would be no reason to perfer one dystopia from another. If you prefer the handmaids tale over 1984, it is beacuse you like the characters from the one novel better than the other. Also, just call literary fiction realistic fiction. If you don't, it's like saying some books are not literature while others are, and that doing that seems to misrepresent the definition of literature, writing that is nonutilitarian, fiction/narrative vs pursausive and expository.
I've totally had a literary fiction person tell me that Erikson's Deadhouse Gates was 'one of those books'. I tried to defend its premise before I gave up. He wasn't going to change his mind because of what I said.
The more I think about the characteristics of the two categories you presented, the more I realize that the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe is literary fiction with SF tropes instead of SF.
I think the term "literary fiction" should be changed to "poetic fiction", with the emphasis being on the novel as a crafted object, self-conscious of form, and concerned more with theme than plot. Genre fiction can contain moments of poetic insight, and is obviously also conscious of form, but the theme of genre fiction is the particular genre itself. It is more like an aesthetic exercise, playing within certain conventions in order to facilitate an engaging read.
I guess what is missing from the conversation is the fact that these different approaches to fiction mirror different approaches to life itself. Some people live introspective lives focused on the minutiae and the beauty of their world, searching for meaning. Some people take meaning for granted, and enjoy things like board games and sports. Most people are a bit of both....and we need stories that speak to both sides. In the end, there is only one valid distinction: is it good or not?
I definitely see the point of breaking the partition. Truthfully, I tend to gift genre fiction to people who read a bit less, and give literary fiction to my closest, 'frequent reader' friends.
By your definitions of Genre/Literary, my novel can be thought of as *Small-Scale Drama intertwined with Large Scale Drama, Internal Conflict intertwined with Large Scale External Conflict.* Yeah... um... my novel is screwed! LOL!!!
Can I get some tips? I am writing a sci-fi and it's like 70% about the character. Will that work well?
That could definitely work well! It's all about the execution. If the story is primarily going to be about the characters, then make sure they're interesting and layered, with plenty of internal/external conflict. My best advice is to read other sci-fi novels categorized as "character-driven," such as "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro and "Altered Carbon" by Richard K. Morgan.
IMO the binary distinction between literary and genre fiction has been harmful for both, most genre fictions tend to become formulaic and trope-y until someone artistic and creative breaks the mold, and literary fiction avoiding genre aesthetics have caused itself to die out from public conscience for the most part
if that distinction didn't exist then literature in general would've been in a better place, genre fiction wouldn't be in it's own formulaic bubble, instead taking experimental and artistic structures, themes and stories much like literary fiction, while literary fiction would contribute to some of the greatest sci-fi, mystery, fantasy and romantic novels, the best novels are sometimes the ones that defy the genre vs literary duality
When you read all of these literary magazines you see stories that are absolutely beautifully written...but BORING BORING BORING! Many of these award winning or Pushcart winning stories are BORING BORING BORING!
Yes, boring and beautiful written!
Maybe its boring to you because you're lazy and limited. Sounds like you have arrested development.
One of the single most helpful things I’ve ever heard about writing.
Can anyone tell is The Giver by Lois Lowry genre or literary fiction?
I would consider "The Giver" to be genre fiction, as it deals with a sci-fi world, and it's considered children's fiction in terms of audience. Literary fiction tends to be mainly written for an adult audience. However, "The Giver" is still a children's classic and a wonderful story! :)
When you said accessible genre writing my mind immediately went to Mistborn before you brought it up. Sanderson is so good at writing clear and concise prose. I’ve heard him description prose as the window you view the story through and literary is often a stained glassed window while his is just a plane of glass.
What an awesome video. Well explained and easily understood. Subbed
Thank you so much for watching and for your kind words! Keep writing. :)
Huh. I just learned literary fiction is different from genre fiction. In fact, I thought it was a mix between genre and just having a certain general fiction be a bit more... Literary.
I feel so dumb. But this video made me realize that as much as I consume so many genre fiction, it was always the literary ones that stuck by me. In fact, I was lost because I wanted to write a story similar to the literary fictions I've read but molded it to be more genre fiction since it's what's always around me. Guess that answers my question on how to write a certain story. Or two. Time to categorize which of my books are literary and read them more. Man do I love productive procrastination.
And here I am, reading genre fiction because I like dragons
Escapism isn't a negative label. It leaves room for positive thought.
The prejudice against genre fiction may be disappearing. My MFA workshop classes accept genre fiction and we have specific classes on science fiction, romance, and magical realism.
Hi thank you for sharing your video on genre verses literally. I sometimes find myself lost when it come to finding reading materials that appeals to me. I recently started writing short stories of my own, experimenting with different characters. I write romantic short stories that keeps me up all night making sure that my characters find love and live happily ever after. I know that it’s probably boring for those looking for more depth or drama. There is plenty of it outside my door. The world that I’ve created is safe for me and for those looking for the same thing. I may not get an award for my writing style but I’m satisfied and happy with my work. Still under construction.
I never heard of this distinction. What a ultimately useless thing it is.
Okay, so, first I thought, maybe my current project is dipping its toes into literary fiction because there's a philosophical topic that keeps coming up and strongly influencing the self-perception of one of my main characters. Now I think maybe it's 100% literary fiction because it doesn't actually have a plot outside of the emotional development that happens while my three characters interact with each other. I'm confused.
I appreciate this channel and I'm glad I got to this video. I've been working on a novel, unsure of my audience, but sure I'm still telling the story that it is. This helped me determine that it'll probably fall under magical realism.
Oh my goodness! 😱😱 I feel in love your voice 🥰😍 please do more videos. I was hooked by you!😃
Thank you for this video. You have the most wonderful way of explaining and the editing and your voice are both so clear and absorbing. I am trying to hard to fit my recently completed novel into a category and it is ridiculously confusing with so many genres and sub -genres never mind trying to decide if is it genre or literary. On the one hand I don't feel qualified to describe my writing as traditionally literary - it isn't completely full of highfalutin prose and high brow thinking. But, on the other hand, it seems more character driven than fast paced plot so not typically genre fiction either. Now I can see that there is a spectrum as you've said and although I'm still a little confused on how best to categorise my own particular story I do see that it can still be character driven but fit into genre fiction - thank you so much!
I didn't really even think about what category my book would be in to be honest. It is a fantasy drama, with a lot of movement and plot, but at the same time I really like to write close to the characters, display their inner conflicts, their relationships with each other. I love emotion in fiction, and seeing a world through the characters eyes without missing out on the world collapsing around them. I never necessarily really thought of those things as separate ideals. So yeah both categories could hugely benefit from each other in my opinion
I am a staunch Genre reader and writer, I won't say it's better than Literary fiction, but I will say it's better for me and my taste. To each their own, always.
As a Dr of English Literature I feel qualified to say that there is no more valour in reading a book than there is in watching TV
This is insanely stupid. You need your degree revoked.
Well said. Thank you for this.
Amazing video and analysis. I would say also that movies like “Arrival” and “Annihilation” (as well as their novel counterparts) are a good exemple of a genre story with a great use of literary fiction devices, such as human condition and character development.
Annihilation is a great example of that. The film did an excellent job of capturing that quality, as well. Both of my parents watched it, my dad being a sci-fi fan, and missed the message. They labeled it "strange." I labeled it "brilliant."
Please make a video on writing magical realism
I like genre fiction which is thought provocative, which introduce to new ideas like 'The Last question' by Isaac Schkimov or 1984. However my taste for typical formula/plot driven fiction has wore off. But I can't appreciate literary fiction either as sometimes I can't grasp it.
It seems, from what you've said, the content of my novel is literary, the style and pace genre fiction. I believe the plot is a good one, but the characters and their shifting relationships, their motivations and the personal psychology behind them are a big part of the story.
MCU Movies Vs Martin Scorsese Films
I dislike books that shoehorn themselves into a certain genre with all its tired tropes. I also dislike literary books because they feel too pretentious (and they're boring). A good book must be entertaining, compelling, and get you to look at life from a new angle.
I love your graphics and explanations! So informative, yet calming. 😌
Your speech is very balanced and you are not absolute at all on your words, which I appreciate quite a bit. It's what anyone likes and what they want to read. In Greek literature, for instance, there are many books written with a plentiful vocabulary, and they're not much of reader consumption. Nevertheless, there is character development and action. And they're books written before the 20th century. Of course, some of them, don't have much action and focus more on the description of landscapes.
Personally, one of my favourite ones is Papadiamantis' "Η φόνισσα" (The killer woman in English) It is considered one of the leading novels of Greek literature. It's Thriller/Mystery, has huge character development and action. And it's a book published in 1903!
In general, I think that European literature has a lot to show. I'm just talking specifically about my country.
Forget them. Comics is the way to go.
Fantastical lenses make it easier to see truths we'd rather not see or discuss. The three things you're not supposed to discuss in polite company are Religion, Politics, and Money. But if you want to talk about those things it's far easier to have that discussion through the medium of sc-fi/fantasy.
Spot-on observation!
I prefer genre fiction. Sci Fi, dramatic, dystopian, romantic love story of two people in a dark world. A protagonist fighting an authoritarian tyrannical government, returning to the people who they have to persuade to join their side. I know that sounds very cliche but I love it. Give me Divergent any day.
I’m just not going to pick up a Jane Austen or Shakespeare in my life. I don’t want to learn Elizabethan English in iambic pentametre, and read about Mr Darcy and the Willoughby, no thanks. I will be bored out of my dreams. I don’t need to learn about themes and literary prose. I love non-fiction and religious scripture, and if I want to be educated I will turn to those topics. David Graber for Anthropology, Eliade for comparative religion, Freud for psychoanalysis, Jung for analytic psychology, Marx for revolutionary thought, Bhagavad Gita for Vaishnava theology, Quran for Islamic ideas. Not gonna read Jane Austen, or Moby Dick, no thanks.
I read the Tanakh, and I love the story of Moses Moses, my hero. Saves the Israelites. Moses spends his life in the desert. Moses to Yahweh,. Moses leaves Egypt, deals with Pharaoh. Moses talks to the burning bush. Moses splits the sea into two. Moses, fantastic.
Still, I will not be touching any genre fiction, perhaps except Dostoyevski. Dostoyevski because he has theological and existential themes, which I like. But generally, no. I’m not touching literary fiction. Except Dante’s Inferno, because I like religious stories.
Absolutely no Jane Austen. I would rather Dune and the Bene Gesserit, Paul Atreides than Jane Austen. Goodbye Jane Austen. Okay, Macbeth was a good play. But I still won’t be reading anything else further by Shakespeare, did that in secondary school, won’t do it again.
I choose genre fiction. Harry Potter, Divergent. No thanks Jane Austen, please stop boring me with Mr Willoughby, and Moby Dick.
I MAY read James Joyce, because I want to torture myself with difficult books like his work and Infinite Jest. Maybe I’ll read Jane Austen when I’m 50. But seriously, the importance of Jane Austen gives me severe anxiety. And I feel pressure to read her. I would rather Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.
In good situations or yes vice
I found out about this "dichotomy" just recently when I was compiling a TBR for a reading challenge of 1 book a week per theme. My initial reaction was, "Aren't all books literary?" Looks like the distinction is what would be considered literature as a work of art.
Admittedly, I'm a bit of a snob. There's a book from my country which won 2 prestigious national literary awards but I dismissed it as genre fiction.
To be frank, given the age of this video, I'm not sure what my motivations are for commenting; yet, I shall do so. "Literary" fiction has only been around since the early nineties, the term having been coined by some 'bright young thing' to try to develop a new genre that spoke to a particular demographic. Until then, anything could be considered, what I shall call, high-art fiction. John le Carre wrote spy novels, but no one would argue with the highly developed craft of his novels. You, yourself, showed Garcia-Marquez, I would add Borges, Calvino, & Bulgakov to that list, whom all dealt, in one form or another, with fantasy. Even the Surrealists were trying only to get to the root of the humans' experience in the world, just in a way that that would shock the reader out of their normality. Umberto Eco, Professor of Medieval History & Semiotics, also wrote Baudolino, about a knight on a quest to find Prester John--surely a fantasy, considering all the strange characters, beings, & monsters his Protagonist met on his journey. It is certainly a work of the highest esteem.
It was, perhaps, ironic, that at the same time as the literary genre was created, I decided to up my reading game. I simply wanted more than what I was getting out of fantasy/science fiction being published at the time. So I went back to the beginning & started reading Ancient Greek myths, tales, & dramas. I have slowly worked my way forward. As it turns out, I enjoy a challenge, &, perhaps even more, learned to enjoy a really well written sentence. (If you are a writer I would suggest Stanley Fish's book How to Write a Sentence). A well written sentence doesn't mean opening a thesaurus, but choosing the proper word for whatever it is you are trying to convey, given the setting, characters, & time of your writing. I would suggest anything written by Chester Himes to see how it is done; should you prefer something thicker, then take up Broch's The Death of Virgil (which is basically a five hundred page prose poem). I want to re-read a sentence or paragraph, not because I didn't understand it, but because it is so wonderfully crafted, that I don't want to let it go. Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser is still one of my favorites.
There are now over a million words, either invented or imported, in the English language. Search for them, hunt them down, find them & use them. Grow to cherish them. If I am reading a fantasy that is based, to some degree or other, on the medieval times of Europe, I do not want to be assaulted by the contemporary vernacular. Find the great older books that were published before the Literary genre was encapsulated in the MFA churn-house. Read The Master & Margarita & you will find the craft of writing heightened & honed to the very finest degree.
Unfortunately, publishing industry wants to classify authors AND books....
Most people don't know or care about this, there are only readers and writers. Publishers don't care what they print as long as it sells and in a world where people are reading less, it's good that people read anything at all.
I think that's true to some extent, but publishers do care about genre categorizations for marketing purposes. They use those labels to reach the audience that's most likely to buy and enjoy the book. Literary agents often have style preferences, with some preferring more "commercial" fiction and others wanting lyrical prose.
This is the same thing as the Thomas Crowne Affair (the remake, not the Jewison version); value in art is determined by the elite few, which turns out, is incapable of distinguishing real art from fake art in the end. It is all in the eye of the beholder; I find as much value and entertainment in Stephen King's "It" (which was a relief to finish reading) than in Tolstoy's "War and Peace."
Thank you for this in depth video. I am currently writing my first literary fiction short story and wanted to get a clearer understanding (as I typically do straight fantasy fiction involving anything from shapeshifters to sci-if dystopia and anthro realms lol) and this explained so much.
For starters I didn’t even realize this was a debated issue. I figured people judged a story based on how well it was written and the execution of character, plot and thematic messaging. Definitely more too it than that!
I think I understand the dichotomy a bit better, and I do agree that certain genres rely too much on pre-fabricated recipes; romance, espionage, and judicial thrillers. As much as I like Le Carré; there is still nothing more than the following ingredients; the mole, Switzerland, the friend who does time for the crime another has committed, and the idea that the hero is becoming like the adversary. And from how many angles can John Grisham explore the intricacies of legal drama? The only books he hasn't written (yet) are "The Bailiff", "The Stenographer" and "The Paralegal". To me, genre is a way to say things that are not possible of saying in a certain context, for instance, sci-fi; in sci-fi, it is possible to have an inter-racial kiss, because all of the action is happening in the year 3000, so, if you're in 1968, nothing to worry about! Genre is about having an intangible concept as an actor of the plot; trust and mistrust in espionage, love and indifference in romance, right and wrong in legal dramas... Does the difference between the two simply means writing style? In this case, let me quote Hemingway; "...he thinks big words mean big emotions." Then there is no real difference between Wuthering Heights and an airport novel!
I mean recently we see the distinction between literary fiction vs commercial fiction not genre fiction. There can be literary fantasy books like Sapkowski’s Witcher series and Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings. Both are examples of literary fantasy that managed to gain commercial success despite not following the rules of commercial fiction
Girl you make me want to kiss your voice. Brilliant narration with insightful content. Non-pretentious and at the same time immersive.
I say: job well done👍👍
absolutely obsessed with the way you go the whole video with a polite, calming voice, speaking in well thought out sentences and a reasonable tone, only to end the video with "there's not point shitting on other people's tastes." incredible 10/10
Ha! For the dystopian, you put an empty TP roll. Nice foreshadowing!
Amazing video.. Thank you so much 😍
Your approach to your videos IS great! Bookish love from the UK
I've got zero problem with lit fic, I just can't stand the people who exclusively fetishize it. I've known a few. They are, without exception, Dunning Kruger types who don't get that they don't get it. Especially when it comes to SF -- mature SF often engages with legitimate questions of tech and the nature of being human.
Side note: another genre that gets shit on a lot by lit fic exclusivists is espionage/techno thriller. Sure, there's a lot of action hero Tom Clancy type stuff, but there's a number of amazing political espionage thrillers that tackle mass surveillance, ethical questions, and the problems of ideology.
I like fantasy settings and complex characters and interactions between them even if they take precedent over the plot but I hate flowery prose. If I have to sit with a dictionary and then read a summary on the internet and think all throughout yhe night to understand a book, I'm not interested in such a book. For me, a novel in first a form of entertainment. Improvement and growth are secondary or irrelevant.
I say just look at Shakespeare. Sensational Elizabethan entertainment to get the groundlings going, while at the same time, the one most complex works into the human condition in history.
Your approach to your videos IS great! Bookish love from the UK
Thought-provoking! In fact, I've just now realized what the unpleasant itch I had at the back of my skull was about a kid's book I wrote is. It's genre fiction - but for some reason I gave it a much more literary fiction ending... Hmm. I'm going to have to rethink that. Not to say that it can't be done, but it's good to have the differences pointed out to me!
I also feel that may be the problem I had with The Book of Strange New Things, by Michel Faber, which I finished recently. It seems to be science fiction to start with. Clearly a genre book. But the further on you go, the more you realise he'd prefer to write literary fiction. In the end, I felt he'd written many interesting words, but no story. I don't care for books that are trying to be all artistic - or at least, that's how they seem to defend their inability to close any of the "plot"-lines by the end of the book. That's not artistic, it's not poignant, it's just lazy writing (to me.) Okay, occasionally a book can leave a major thing open to wondering by the reader - like at the end of the movies Total Recall and Inception. Was it all an implanted dream? (In both cases.) In both cases there's been sufficient closure of the various plot lines that you (the reader or viewer,) feel that the story has gone somewhere, and left us in a new and satisfying place. And the still-open-unanswered-question is just a teaser to get you thinking as you leave the cinema (or book, as the case may be.) But there are no endings in The Book of Strange New Things. And I found that incredibly annoying. And unsatisfying. I guess I wasn't reading it (primarily) for interesting prose, but for an enjoyable story. I agree with you that it is possible to have both. I'm thinking of something like Golding's Lord of the Flies, and (maybe,) Conrad's Heart of Darkness (to an extent.) I should add that many people really loved The Book of Strange New Things. But not me.
What's interesting is that this distinction only seems prominent in the west. In anime, for example, many stories explore the human condition while also having dragons and knights (berserk)
this issue always seems to run a lot deeper than anyone realizes. for example, this idea of literary sentences taking “more work to understand." sure, this all resembles an issue of market segmentation at first glance, but it’s more related to educational systems making literature inaccessible through outdated instruction. some of the greatest literature of the last 2 centuries isn’t inherently more challenging and was enjoyed by a wide demographic at the time of release. the problem is that schools and societies haven’t cultivated strong readers in the last century, which isn't the fault of readers or would-be readers. publishing houses swooped in on that and segmented the market to capitalize upon this problem-that’s what it REALLY means when we say "literary fiction is hard." there's no actual distinction between literary and genre other than marketability, which changes decade to decade.
I am a relatively inexperienced fiction reader. Only started reading regularly thanks to my gf buddy reading IC's monthly books with me. I have definitely already come in with a vague understanding what I like and not from other media but am also now seeing how that reflects on books and it's a mess to figure out. The books I enjoyed a lot leaned more towards complex and thematic. A lot of the books I didn't like was not because of being bad or atleadt offensively so but more that I didn't feel pushed and stimulated enough. I like being able to days later have a reflection on something I read and a lot of what's considered young adult oriented is entertaining but not captivating in the way I am looking for. I got told that I might just be into literary fiction but one book i really loved that I read by myself on the side was dune which is not seen as literary cause it's sci-fi??? It's so difficult for someone who does not yet have familiarity with differing authors or the trends of specific publishers to navigate the space to find those types of books without being locked to specific aesthetics.
If it's well written, then it's literary regardless of what it's talking about. The best example is The Hobbit. However, a book can be well written and unbearably boring. Then it qualifies as art 😄😄
I learned a long time ago that what you produce and how it's viewed by others are two completely different things. I learned this with my painting, and it holds true for writing. Just remember, we all have a different perspective.
Problem is literary snobs try to force it on genre dudes, it's so frustrating. If you don't force it, then it will happen naturally. I wasn't the type who would listen to Oprah style music, but as i watched various different anime, i grew to appreciate Oprah, to the point where i occasionally hear a random one for the sake of it.
The moment you are worried about what kind of book you are "caught" reading, you have lost the plot.
I'm a little irked by the debate. To quote Rodney King, 'Can't we all just get along?' (this vid was as good as any I've ever seen by the way)
My good friend and collaborator, who may be the best writer I've ever read, once told me a novel I'd written was completely different than anything she'd ever read. And she's read everything.
In one way, I felt pretty good about that. I thought of it as a badge of courage. In another way, it scares the living poo out of me. I want things to be fresh and unique, but I don't want them to be so different readers won't find a frame of reference. In a way, uniqueness and freshness can sometimes be mutually exclusive with familiarity, yet all three are important.
It's neither fish nor fowl, but it feels legitimate to me. She calls this 'Literary Lite', a term I'm really not fond of. I prefer 'General Fiction', although that's a term I'm also not fond of. Neither designation is descriptive enough to be understood. You just can't pin this down. And most of the Internet 'experts and gurus' don't know that either designation even exists.
So it's not really genre and it's not really literary, but what it definitely is not is half one and half the other. That would be half-assing it, and I prefer to whole-ass things. And I prefer to push the envelope.
My goal is to make sure that I have all of the conventions and obligatory moments of the global genre, as well as as many that can fit that belong to the subplots. On top of that, there are a number of moments that I think fit the concept of literary surprisingly closely. So I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. I'm trying to include the best of both worlds without it being a mishmosh or a mashup. Of course, that was never my original strategy. It's just what came out when I wrote.
But the problem there is it's not easy to define, so an elevator pitch can't really do it justice.
I'm shocked at how many literary agents outright state they aren't interested in genre fiction. I already have a number of things I gotta watch out for in my searches; "wokism" being chief among them.
Literary fiction strikes me as so limiting. It's like saying, "Breeds of horses are not true horses, give me horses." Umm... huh??? The more I hear about "literary fiction," the more it comes across as the "slice-of-life" genre.