Are we heading for a caravan industry crisis?
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- With unprecedented new stock levels still on forecourts and the next years models due into the dealers imminently, are well looking at a crisis situation for some dealerships. Also, what does this mean for you as a customer, there is more too it that the ability to grab a bargain at the expense of the dealer. In this video I talk about how the system works, and why I think we could potentially see some casualties in the dealer network as cash flow get squeezed. But you can help, get out there and buy caravans people… (I know its not that simple)
For more information on caravans please visit my website
www.atlanticca...
Like the car industry, The caravan and accessory manufacturers have priced themselves out of the market with a lack of real competition and quality.
Totally agree, I Bought brand New Bailey GT60 Ranger 2009. Paid under 12,000 including motor mover. It's absurd now. We looked at replacing her but due to prices we have decided not to bother.
@@JustbehelpfulThe new caravans look pretty but they are rubbish. Gone are the comfortable seats and well built interiors and when you complain they make you feel that you are the problem.I feel sorry for the dealers they are decent as a rule. The problems remain with the manufactures spewing out expensive rubbish.
@@Justbehelpful £12,000 in 2009 is £18,600 allowing for standard inflation according to the Bank of England. Current Phoenix have the large central window, half a dozen 3 pin sockets and 4 usb's, GRP exterior panels, Truma Combi space and water heater, no timber in the walls and roof, pre wired for mover and router, platterless microwave, more lighting around the van. The problem is that incomes haven't kept up with inflation so prices look much higher.
Yes, cheap finance has let the prices creep up but it's back to reality now.
The manufacturers have got gready for sure, I would never buy a brand new caravan because the list prices are just bonkers..
The whole situation has become too expensive. Vans too dear, site fees rediculous price and fuel still sky high. It's become far too expensive for most people.
I saw CAMC sending out begging letters earlier this week.. For a club with over 100m in the bank (According to their formally published accounts) they sure do know how to charge....!
All Hobbies Are Expensive, If You Want To Do It Then Do It !!😎👍
We’ve just hit year 2 of owning our motorhome which we bought new.
£375 VED
£450 insurance
£400 service
£250 habitation check
£170 tracker subscription
All that on top of site fees and diesel, it’s getting bloody ridiculous!
No wonder there are always so many one and two year old motorhomes for sale. 😡
@@BillyBob-rm3ve And Now There's More Moterhomes Than Caravans Turning up On Club Sites!
@@dougle03to a point. I'm off to a camc site next week for two nights. All facilities, 27 a night. I've just come back from a CL where they were on 25 a night with no facilities. Some CL owners are trying it on as they've had a busy couple of years after COVID. Most are half empty now.
Good to see a dealer on UA-cam telling it how it is, not continually talking the market up.
Thanks, thought I might get some flack for it, nothing so far only people agreeing..
They want to spend "some time and effort" into making a better product. Bailey can't even make a product which doesnt let in water!..
Neither can Coachman, Swift or Elddis.
@@bbud2611 But the problem is neither the dealer or the manufacturer want to put them right, service is non-existent!
@@paulbird3235 Bailey solved the damp problem. Floor covering with pattern of water ingress.
@@davidk3729 Yes I can believe that.I put some negative comments on one of their Bailey ads a few months ago but I see they were removed.
British caravan manufacturers don’t know the meaning of either ‘quality’ or ‘customer service’. Sadly, I cannot think of one company that does not deserve to go out of business unless they improve.
The cost of sites are gone crazy becoming cheaper to go to spain for a weeks holiday
I'm a caravaner. Been touring for 20yrs. My 2nd van I purchased for £2000 it's a 1993 Abbey Alliance 5 birth single axel. I've owned this for 16yrs and it's still dry and rot free and has been over the Highlands of Scotland 3 sometimes 4 times a year. Moral of the story is you don't need the latest greatest van to holiday in. Buy 2nd hand and the money you save not buying new will give you a great holiday..I don't care how it looks it's functional, dry, warm and is somewhere to relax after along hike..
Spot on, I reckon there is a market for up cycling these older vans that have no problems and don’t leak.
Exactly this, gave up our caravan 12 years ago. Last van was a 6 Berth Elddis Wisp, far lighter than most modern 2 berths. Cost me £3K had the same holiday as everyone else. Watching the caravan sited next to me - £25K and an £80K Range Rover to tow it made me chuckle a little.
@@bordersw1239 I wouldn't put down anyone who spends so much on a caravan or expensive tow vehicle but like you said a cheap van and decent tow car will give you the exact same holiday experience and less worries about dents and bangs a new caravan will get through its life. Best wishes to you and yours my friend 👍👍👍
@@davidbuchanan3374 . Hope I didn’t come across as putting them down , entirely up to them how they spend their money but some people do get caught in the must have the best of everything trap. My fiend lost his house due to the unnecessary large loan he took out to buy his caravan, which was very sad. Literally went from living in a nice 4 bed detached to council emergency accommodation, shared with ex prisoners.
Evening David, we've just sold our 2002 Abbey Alliance having owned it since new and its been a great van. We've travelled thousands of miles with it, the last big trip a 2 monther last autumn down to Bavaria and back through France. Its been a great van, but has been showing its age recently and we decided we wanted a caravan fixed bed, particularly after our trip to Germany. Replaced it with a new Elddis Supreme, another dealer special, and it was back at the dealers after our first trip, to sort out "teething problems". I spoke to Stewart Longtons at Chorley to ask them if they were still doing the Alliance, because I would have had another, but they said they had stopped doing dealer special editions some years ago.
New caravans are too expensive for young family’s and the older clientele are entering at the campervan and motorhome level. Such a shame as really all most of us need is a hassle free, leak free simple home on wheels to make memories.
Even groceries are too expensive for young families now,
@@jamesclack9878 site fees a pretty pricey too.
During COVID and demand was high especially on used caravans the manufacturers thought just a minute we'll increase the price of new ones,well they did now see the results, there not doing special deals,greed caused overstock.
I’ll have to disagree there I’m afraid, the increase in costs wasn’t profiteering the prices were set on new at least before all that happened. Increases have been due to the increase costs the manufacturers have had to endure. Extra red tape getting things from Europe, wages going up, and can you imagine how much there electricity bill for a factory has gone up. Some of it could be avoided if the warranty bill wasn’t as high. I’ll admit, us as dealers did profiteer as we didn’t have to knock anything off caravans due to the demand and pre owned caravan prices shot up., the money we all made there might save us now.
@@atlanticcaravansUK I have no sympathy for manufacturers. They all happily ramped up production and prices when demand was very very high; Those that did it right will have scaled up in a way that means its easy for them to scale back to 'normal' levels again. Yes, some costs did go up, but not by the levels we say in the RRP's. They used the cover of mass media whipped up hysteria of high prices to game the market for more margin. Let's hope they saved some of that extra wedge for these entirely predictable fallow times.
They would be far more profitable if they got a proper handle on quality assurance; can't imagine how much it's costing both dealers and manufacturers to put right stuff that should have been right on day one. Always more expensive to fix it afterwards than it it to get it right first time...
in 2019 i looked at a certain brand new caravan, £19k. now the same caravan £26k. 35% increase . nothing i get paid or payout has gone up 35% in that time.
As a cost comparison, we had a new Sprite in 2013, including having a motormover fitted at a retail cost of 15k. That same caravan 11 years on is probably 25k. Atlantic caravans are right when they say a lot of people could afford/justify 15k at that time, but 25k now for the equivalent takes a bit of finding.
We purchased an 18 month old (probably a lockdown van) van 6 months ago for 21k. We couldn’t justify any more than that, as we only go out a few times a year, but I’ll add, we did get a very good trade in price on our 11 year old, which sold quickly and made the dealer a reasonable profit.
I’m in business myself, and for there to be a dealer for us to buy from, they need to make a profit. That’s business. 😊
Yes, every caravan owner could see the covid effect on the market. We used to sit in our van in the rain and say "they'll all be selling up and going back to Benidorm next year" and of course it's proved correct.
Until people have more money in their pockets NOTHING will really improve.
As long as the government keeps getting bigger knowone will have any money left.
I think site cost isn’t helping the problem.
That is so true!.😒...
C&MC ripping-off people for their basic main sites last few years as well.
To right 👍
So true, I found it roughly the same price hiring out a static compared to taking my tourer on holiday in May this year, factoring in fuel then I didn't have the hassle of siting and packing up at the end of the week
Just asking what is the going rate for a site. Was thinking of buying a van , but now listening to this guy makes me think. 🤔
Sold my motorhome last year as site owners got greedy and fees skyrocketed.
It’s not greed, it’s necessity, they’re subject to the same pressures as everyone, if you’re looking for greed, it’s the fuel and electricity companies where that buck stops. Bp, this is from their website
Reported profit for the quarter was $2.3 billion, compared with $0.4 billion for the fourth quarter 2023.
@@atlanticcaravansUKsimilar end of year shareholders report for banks and insurance companies
Our first van in 1973 was a used 1969 Thomson Glenalmond. Fifteen foot four berth. Added a piece of chipboard, small drop down leg and a sunbed mattress, it became a five berth. Bought privately for £350. Eight years later and galloping inflation, sold it for £850. Had a proper chassis - cross bars at front and rear and coil spring suspension with shock absorbers.
Caravan sites were reasonably priced, cl’s five to ten shillings, and the farmer in Dorset allowed our three lads to ‘work’ all day and returned the money telling the boys, “Tell your dad he has to buy us ice cream.”
Another van I installed mains electricity system. Exterior socket, three feet of orange cable connected to a four way outlet via safety trip. Powered tv, kettle, fan heater, table lamp, battery charger. New caravans have super complicated electronics that must need specialist attention when it inevitably goes wrong.
Obviously we’re getting on a bit so sold the last van an Abbey fixed bed 4 berth in 2017. All caravans over the forty four years were second hand. Only one developed a leak, a Swift Cottingham- it was obviously repairable as the dealer allowed a decent part ex for the next one.
We saw the best of it. Noticed things changing when we wandered into campsite reception and we’re not asked, “How long you likely to stay,” but “Have you booked.”
‘Should have booked this by March’.
Then there’s the clever design features. First van had a small roof-light. Orange Perspex so every morn waking up was to a sunny glow, followed by disappointment when you opened the door to a wet field and grey sky. Then the manufacturers decided more holes in the roof would be a good idea. Up to seven the last time I looked, including an oversize Heki at the front and another at the back, right over the bed! Interior design for pretty looks not practicality. Eye level cupboards extra narrow to give the appearance of extra width.
Do they still charge extra for essential kit on a £20,000+caravan?
Gas cylinder, battery, waste water and fresh water containers, 25metre mains cable, step, spare wheel.
Caravan site owners need to reduce their nightly fees and offer none electric pitches at a much cheaper rate because the vast majority are not educated on Solar.
I know a lot of people on varius forums that have given up caravanning completely because of extortion prices pppn and the silly hidden extras.
Caravans are a ridiculous price now.
And motor homes and campervans are even worse.
And site fees no the wonder people are pulling out
We are Caravaners of some 33 years. Over that time we’ve had 6 new vans. Looking lately not impressed with the new vans and too expensive.
Would it put you off buying? The normal 4 year average swap cost to change is the biggest it’s ever been.
Great video Darren, very honest inside view of the dealer, manufacturer, consumer challenge. Hope all is well with you & your team. Best Oakleigh
It’s much much cheaper and more flexible to just book a hotel or B&B these days.
Really interesting and informative, thank you.
I hope sales pick up for you.
We did buy an Eriba Nova 465 in March, but we knew exactly what we wanted and it was a 2022 model discounted from £24,500 to £20,000. An equivalent 2023 model would have cost around £26,000 and a 2024 model would have cost just over £29,000 for the same spec and it would be exactly the same model because Hymer don't change models that often. We bought it to use for the next 10-15 years, so we wen't bothered about residuals in a few years time.
It's this massive price inflation that is putting buyers off en masse, so I think you were wise to switched to used sales only. I've noticed that even new camper vans and motorhomes, which were in very short supply, are now being discounted new.
As a caravan owner for nearly 20 years we are thinking that the van we have will definitely be our last. Storage fees, towing out fees and then site fees are crippling. It’s definitely cheaper to b and b now as a couple. It’s sad as we love our caravan which is paid for but still very expensive (over £100 a month before we even use it).
I would love to use the B&Bs you use their prices rocket in spring and summer too we stayed in a B&B in the Highlands in May and another outside Glasgow for a night £90 and £95 including breakfast and that was a basic B&B's no fancy add on's
Very interesting video. Thanks for putting the dealer side to it. We bought a new caravan in 2017 for 23k and that same van is 35k since covid. We had some severe warranty work done whilst we owned it and we sold it last year. I wouldn't buy another as the quality of the product does not justify the price. I think manufacturers will price themselves into administration as not enough people will want to take on the risk of ownership and quite frankly the stress. We loved our caravan holidays and do miss it and if we could have part ex our van for a new one at reasonable cost we may have kept on buying new ones every 4 years or so but the leap in prices in those 4 years was another reason to sell.
Yes, that’s is a point I hadn’t considered actually, the increase in the last 4 years has been like we have never seen before. The price to change just isn’t justifiable now, as there isn’t actually much difference in the product, and certainly not enough to be a reason to change.
Love these videos. As a small business owner I love business talk and what you said is very true.
The same happened to the cycles trade, during the pandemic it went nuts, new bikes sold out all over the place used bikes were selling for more then the new price for the same model.
Prices went up and have never came back down and a lot of businesses have closed down.
I hope that the customer you had during the video spent some money with you.
looking forward to the next video
all the best to you and thank you for the videos
@@stehume no problem, it’s a complicated balancing act which I think tipping the wrong way at the moment..
As for motorhomes/campervans during the covid people who'd never owned either were buying them online without even seeing or test driving them. How many of these are back on the market now !? I wouldn't buy a new van or a caravan from anywhere else but a local dealer ( I'd rather buy low mileage private) because it's not a case of if but when you need to return for warranty work.
@@daletinsley2954 Depends on how much you are saving buying private. If it's many 1000's then you have a fairly large pot of savings to cover the risk of things not being right. It's exactly what the dealers do. Buy a used van for 20k sell it for 30k they keep 10k for warranty work, and profit. Buying private can ge great, but the numbers have to be right...
Thanks for your honesty on this and each of your videos... even respecting commercial constraints, we would all be in a better place if this approach was more commonplace.
As a result of your video, some very valid points have been raised in the comments.... notably the push for electric cars (thankfully, the penny is dropping that they are not that great after all and not thought through for real usage)....
Also, the ridiculous cost on UK sites.... UK costs have rocketed! .... you only need a quick look at the ACSI European site costs...
Thanks, I think someone has had to put their over the parapet, I don’t know what good it will do though.
Weve been caravaning four years and love it but in that time fuel costs and site fees have sky rocketed. CAMC have got greedy and their website is practically unusable. The further north you go the worse the facilities blocks get, dated and depressing, no excuse. Roads full of pot holes, dread looking in the caravan when we arrive on site!
Definitely site fees are impacting, it's getting so expensive. If your a couple then BB, hotels are similar costs for breaks without the outlying for the van.
Without the parking , maintenance and security issues.
@@muckle8me using a cheap trailer tent, more space, advantage to BnB is you can eat cheaper and cook your own food...
@stormcuo2920 your food isn’t cheaper if you’ve had to pay £15-25 to pitch up in a camp site no matter how good a chef you are! The associated prices is killing the whole thing imho.
@@muckle8 I agree, it is too expensive but for a family of 5 it is still the cheaper option. Imo
@stormcup2920 fair point.
No money means no buying anything.
Who wants to pay thousands for a van, to go to a site and pay 45-50 pounds a day for a ‘pitch’.
Like so many lovely aspects of our culture, caravanning , I suspect, is very much under threat. Not only are site fees prohibitively high for many people,but trying to book a pitch is problematic too. It seems like the powers that be are determined to keep people controlled in their homes. It’s just Orwell’s 1984 being stealthily rolled out . That is of course with the exception of the Davos lot. They will probably develop a virtual holiday, so you can sit on your sofa and have the “experience “. Cheers Blair / Starmer /Schwab and the like.
Total recall comes to mind…
What tripe.
@@timick8281 IT'S not tripe cock, they don't want you on the road.
@@timick8281 Thats what we will be eating thanks to the ignorance of people like you! I bet you never thought we would have political prisoners in the UK until now!
Eyes wide shut....
I'm really enjoying your video's, very candid, very astute!
Looking from the outside in I'd say you've made the best decision to move from new to pre owned. What a flawed business model it seems. Every year the manufacturers put a different colour lipstick on the pig and up the price. Unsustainable.
We're going to move from a campervan to a caravan in he near future. I've noticed how the campervan market has moved in an unsustainable way. Ours is a bit of a niche van a 4x4 Sprinter. Prime target for the Instagram/ lifestyle sell. We've had it since 2015, before COVID and the lifestyle nonsense. Now some manufacturers are asking in excess of £200k. That not a typo, £200k for a van!!
I appreciate the eye watering increases in manufacturers costs. But where's the truth between increasing costs and profiteering?
I'm observing the same in the caravan market. Someone is making serious money. But at some point people lower down the food chain will go bankrupt😔
Good analysis…….the bubble has already burst.
Our dealer refused to buy in part ex our 2023 for a 2024 pre owned.Big price difference between ours and the” new one “ but-still refused.
It’s hard to see a way out of it..
Very honest review of the current market. Thank you.
No problem, thanks, I do hope I’m not right.
@@atlanticcaravansUK You are right. And it's wholly predictable. Manufacturers perhaps should skip a year in terms of model year... No need for a '2024' model...
Your complete right. Looked a getting a caravan on and off for the last 3 ish years. With the associated costs we just moved on to renting cottages instead. Swift Basecamp prices (for e-bikes) being north of £20k is ludicrous seeing how they are specced out.
Thank you for another interesting and informative video.
Manufacturers seem to think that if they bring out an 'updated model' every year customers will want the new design. That may work if you are selling something for a few hundred pounds, but with caravans costing tens of thousands there are not many people who can afford to change every couple of years. I like your idea of issuing the vin when the caravan is sold. If they did that and kept the models consistent for say 5 years then it would reduce the volatility in the market.
We purchased our current caravan in 2019. It was heavily discounted because the 2020 'updated' models were just being released. The changes were only cosmetic, but the dealer needed to shift the 'old' stock. Great for us but not so great for the dealer!
In 2021 we purchased a new car (Ssangyong Rexton, an absolutely brilliant tow car), we got that at a discount because Ssangyong had recently released the new 'facelift' model and the dealer needed to clear his stock. Our model had been basically the same for about 5 years. Imagine how the dealer would have coped if Ssangyong brought out a updated model every year!
With the current market for caravans, if we wanted to replace our caravan with the equivalent new model it would cost us over £36,000! When we purchased both the caravan and the car our plan has been to keep them both for at least 10 years, by which time I'll review if we are fit enough to keep on caravanning.
Caravanning nowadays is certainly NOT a cheap hobby/holiday, when you look at the cost of a night's camping. Even CLs and CSs are charging £25.00 plus per night and many 'big' sites are charging up to £50.00 per night. Add to that the cost of fuel and a week away adds up. But for us is gives us the freedom to travel where we want, and having a dog it makes things easier.
The problem for the caravan industry is that it can be so expensive to get set up with a caravan and suitable tow car that it must put many younger families off caravanning. That is bad news as the industry need to keep its customer base growing as older caravanners give up or pop their clogs. That and the advent of electric cars (many of which aren't certified to tow a caravan) with their limited towing mileage and difficulty of pulling into a charge station with a caravan attached, and things aren't looking good for the caravan industry.
You will see that many 'campsites', including both clubs, are introducing more and more' glamping pods', as they are sensing this change.
I repaired,renovated and rebuilt lodges,mobile homes and caravans. They aren't built to last, to be lived in or moved too many times. The chassis I've seen on some models are disgraceful, galvanised box section is best, but heavier than angle iron. Insulation is half to one inch thick polystyrene in some cases, double glazing is a red herring, it really doesn't do much as the floor and ceiling vents are always going to let heat escape from the moment it's emitted. 2nd hand dealers are cowboys, they pay peanuts, put lipstick on the pig and flip it for a large profit, anything from £4k to £15k on something they bought for £2k.
Regardless of comments below, thank-you for your industry honesty and insights. I wish you all the best in the future moving forward and I hope your business survives. 2025 will be even harder than 2024, so again fingers crossed for your business, certainly looks difficult with storms ahead from all economical data currently available used for predicting, which ultimately is luck more than insightfulness.
Thanks, I had a bit of both when I decided to stop selling new last year. I’d definitely be in trouble if I hadn’t done that
Same thing happening with bicycle industry. New models too expensive, both new and 2nd hand market saturated.
Possibly worse there (??) as my high-end bicycle manufacturing contact told me the industry over-over-ordered in Covid so as to actually get some stock. So, over-egging booming orders either by the volume of order itself or, in the size getting prioritised for earlier delivery (if at all in pandemic lockdowns). This was for both completed units and components. Then these orders actually came through in the actual size ordered creating a tsunami of kit, parts and bikes.
As the gentleman here alludes to for caravans, would have been the smart move was to have realised this was a temporary boom in demand and by extrapolation sat out the greater part of the upswing in the demand cycle. So easily said than done. Few businesses ever, in any boom have been so smart as it is counter-intuitive to business gutfeel. So, almost all never do.
My contact's business went into bankruptcy at Xmas '23 which cyncially gave them the means to simply walk away from all these past contractual obligations whilst continuing business under a new version of the old name. Leaves someone else wearing the cost/loss problem. Ouch. Moral hazard pickup from possible innocent parties. Never good. But again probably ever thus...
Overlaid on all this is the general inflation for the UK (being an island economy now one-stepped removed from Europe) and the industry cost over-runs from Covid expansion. As you rightly point out all this makes price comparisons poor.
In the end, real bankruptcies and thus closures will take out the excess capacity with it being sold at firesale prices. Proabably the only way to remove this whipsaw business cycle... Sadly.
Another really informative video Darren.
Nothing is more important for the future of all 4 UK manufacturing of caravans for their survival is going to be quality.
With such a smaller number of buyers it’s likely they’ll choose quality will be a key factor . For too long the industry has been ignoring it and now almost everyone are seeing this as the most important factor for buying them . Prices cannot be warranted anymore as demand has now dropped significantly.
I’d say trust is up there with quality, it’s just not there at the moment.
Thanks for your comments. Like I said in the video and what Swift said to me, they ‘update’ the next years model if only cosmetically to insure the dealer distress sells their ’old’ stock and is kind of forced into buy the new stock, which means every dealer has to take at least 30 caravans for 2025 to keep the franchise, if they did do a model change every 3 years it would fit into the buying pattern, but the dealers wouldn’t be forced into changing the demos, unless they wanted to get them off the finance line.
Thank you for your honesty and your intuition.
I found this type of update invaluable.
Let’s pray that the small businesses will get the needed support from the manufacturers.
Somewhere down the line someone is going to suffer.
Material prices are literally through the roof.
More support on finance would be best possible way forward.
We know that caravan prices aren’t going to tumble, but if you are asking the general public (me included) to part with a substantial amount of money and not see any reward for a better lower interest rate, then we will hang on to what we have.
Please keep these updates coming. Thank you.
Thanks for you kind comments, Will do, I’ll be doing an update on this actually, had some more insights into why I think the whole landscape will be changing.
Static caravan manufacturers have completely lost the plot - more and more luxurious styling with prices to match. Let's face reality - a caravan is just a tin box which is only really fun to stay in from April to October. No-one wants to pay tens of thousands of pounds to potentially spend many weekends sitting in the rain on a field in the UK. The sales manager at the park we're on has admitted the only real interest is in second hand models sub £30k. Any caravan owner with half a brain could see the covid effect wasn't going to last and that most of the pandemic buyers would be selling up and hot footing back to Benidorm as soon as they could! It's an industry crisis they've constructed for themselves I'm afraid.
All true except even Benidorm doesn’t want tourists now . Entire world has fallen off a cliff.
We are looking at buying a 2nd hand static, viewed one that suits us on a small farm site, only facility is a laundry hut, site fees almost 5K = £100 a week plus almost 30K for the van. I consider this is doing it on the cheap, 10 year ownership including electric, water, gas, insurance, maintenance would cost 100K = £200 a week
Like you say they are only usable April to September, the cost is insane.
@@PaulLancaster-hj3kx Sounds about average Paul. You've really got to think long and hard about whether you're going to get your full moneysworth!
Caravans need to be much lighter and simpler - diesel sales are dropping, fewer new cars have decent towing capacity. I’ve always looked at caravanning as posh camping. My first van (secondhand) was a 5 berth Monza cost £500 about 16 years ago think it weighed 650kg empty.
"These things don't hold up and they fall apart" says it all . . .
Great video. One thing worth mentioning is the interest rates on the Credit Lines are much higher now than in 2020/21. Another pressure point financially for dealers holding stock
Yes, hadn’t thought of that, that definitely won’t be helping.
It's happening in Australia, used van prices have been coming down steadily since the winter of 2023.
All round the world evil is happening
Great video and very helpful. Bit too late for us because the Dealer we bought from has gone into Administration so your prediction was absolutely spot on.
It’s such a shame, I’m putting together another video on that at the moment actually on how to avoid losing deposits or worse, be sure to subscribe and check it out.
Good insights, thanks for sharing.
A really interesting insight to the industry, Thank you! I think the issues you raised are compounded by people being able to choose/afford to run suitable towing vehicles (electric or smaller lighter vehicles) & the price hike in pitch fees to be able to use the caravan (mainly down to electric prices) 2025 will be testing times for a lot of dealers
one interesting aspect of electric cars is Vehicle to Load, plug your van into the car you charged at home for 7.5ppKwh, winner !
Electric cars do not tow, charging with a caravan impossible, especially in a busy carpark.
Owning and operating a caravan costs £000s each year (including, finance, storage, insurance, fuel, site fees, depreciation etc) whereas you can AirBnB a lot easier and cheaper without any commitment to use the van sitting on the drive 330 days/ year.
Drive for electric cars will kill the touring industry.
Totally agree. I’ve just come back from a week’s holiday towing 90 miles there, 90 miles back, running around while there, and I still have half a tank of (euro6 car) diesel left. An electric car will never match that ability and ease of use. And yes, I will be buying a new electric car in the future, but only when I give up caravanning, which will be in around 10 years time.
@@alexrankin8263yty776y6 4868886😅7f4
@@alexrankin8263I have managed to tow our caravan 140 miles in a single session with our Tesla Model Y long range. The car had 25% battery remaining and could have continued, however we all needed a comfort break, a leg stretch and a coffee. We recharged to 100% on a Supercharger and continued to our destination without any issues.
Don't start upsetting the EVangelists they're lost deluded and hard nose'd to admit they fell for the BIG CON ! Let them learn Govt lie for PROFIT😂
If electric cars never will get any better sure.
But if you have being paying atrention the last ten decades there will be innovation, some evolutionary some revolutionary.
Batteries have a very long way the last 15 years.
If you extrapolate that you will have cars with a 1000km range and charge in minutes and weigh half.
But If you have some secret info where batteries are at their peak right now and will not get any better, please share.
I had been window shopping on the internet since christmas looking for a replacement caravan for our 10 year old Elddis, spotted a 'new' 2023 Adria Alpina that eventually dropped by £10k before it was sold last week but still meant a caravan costing £33
Look at the bicycle industry. Demand went up 400% in Covid. Bike shops ordered another 2 to 4 times what they needed because the stock dried up. Distributors doubled that and the bike industry had a tsunami of demand. By 2023 Cash flow stops. Manufactures and retailers going bust. In the bicycle industry they had to slow up production by 80%.
The projected year for stability is still 2026.
Yep. I.said the same thing - hadn't seen your post when I did mine.👍
Just to back up - TG Towing in Hatfield Heath, have just announced that from the end of August, they will no longer be continuing the caravan side of the business. This will, therefore, be making it harder to get caravans services in this area, and making people question why do they need all the aggro of touring caravans. Another sad day for caravaning.
You will own nothing and be happy!
It's going to be a great buyers market out there with so many near new second hand caravans coming onto the market so hopefully you can pick up a beauty for a good cheaper price it's a win for the consumer
Great insight and advice.. Thank you very much.
No problem, glad you found it interesting, out of interest, did you subscribe?
There’s a great little van being imported from Poland,Leeds caravan centre have taken on the franchise, they are one piece fibreglass so no leaks,4 models available and only 750 ok cost £16995 seem good value with good linterior layouts👍🥳☀️
Yes, I’ve seen it, but they just won’t sell, there’s already that kind of product on the market and although they ate are a great idea they only have a very limited market.
Disagree…this is the future. Not for “traditional” caravaners, but for the next generation and the generation after that
@@chriss4949 but we have had go pod, freedoms, teardrops all in the market for years and whereas they do sell, it’s not in big numbers. The Basecamp is a bit of a crossover but they are too much money to be sell in numbers as well. They’ll sell a few but not many. The next generation might see them differently, I just don’t think the whole concept will be appealing to them.
@@atlanticcaravansUK😅 We need a “basecamp” concept, but (1) mtplm 750-999 and (2) starting price £14999 ie..a step up from a posh trailer-tent. ( the Go pod has no washroom and is 20k….this Leeds caravan thingy does have one and is £16k 👍)
A lot of the holiday home manufactures in Hull have reduced their workforce, reduced the hours worked to a 2 day week and extended holidays and brought holidays forward. The business is on its knees mostly down to the large manufacturers over producing to the point that they have no space left for the unit's that have come off the production line. And here we are
And unfortunately this is compounded by dealers going into administration resulting in unsold products being returned to the manufacturers adding to the stock level.
Are you crazy we need you guys. We have a homeless crisis and rental crisis in our country and we need pre fabricated homes now for millions of people .FFS talk to labour.
@@advisorsandy2068 that’s a good point, what’s his phone number..
Interesting, I bought a Lunar back in 2016, which, since they went bankrupt, hasn't held much value. However the maintenance cost over the full ownership period was less than £500 so the plan is to keep it until it falls apart, I don't suspect anyone would take it on part-ex anyway.
Very interesting.I bought a new Avondale 5berth for £9600 from Forest of Dean caravans in 1998.The equivalent today would be three times that.Unfortunately my wages haven’t gone up by the same multiplier.
Definitely, I suppose it’s inline with house prices, three times wages doesn’t buy you anything now. This is my worry, caravanning isn’t a cheap holiday anymore.
@atlanticcaravansUK I bought a brand new 600cc motorcycle In 1998 for £4300. Some of the bigger motorcycles now are around £20k
@@chrishart8548a brand new Suzuki sv 650 is still only £5500 so not triple the price the caravan manufacturers want to charge
@@chrishart8548 Umm…
Due in UK dealerships in April, Honda's 2024 CBR600RR will cost £10,495. This puts it squarely between its two main UK rivals in the form of Aprilia's RS660 at £10,300, and Kawasaki's latest ZX-6R which comes in at £10,599.
Caravans in the UK are going out of fashion. People are going for campervans and motorhomes. We regularly go up to Scotland and for every caravan we see being towed, we might see upwards of 5 campervans. It didn't used to be like that.
Spot on, Campervan sales are still going ballistic, my mate is in that business, it’s all about expanding for him.
Because camper vans are so much more flexible in use.
For many who are into active sports, be it cycling, climbing, canoeing etc, the places you want to go are not necessarily where you want to tow a big caravan at 10pm on a Friday night down a country lane in the middle of Wales.
Just a few years ago I saw a new Swift Basecamp for 17k including plus pack & delivery charges. Now almost 25k. Doesn’t sound right at all. To stay in business they’ll have to vastly lower prices to near pre pandemic prices or they’ll be gone.
The problem is they can’t, everything needed to build and make a caravan has gone up. Brexit made everything more expensive to get over here, have a look at the difference in your electricity bill between 2019 and now, imagine how much more it costs to run a factory. That’s where the profiteering is, the energy and fuel companies.
That's bonkers. Prices have gone up period. Probably the era of low to disinflation brough about the impact of PRC cheap manufacturing and demand is over. Nobody is going to lower prices to a point of five years ago unless volumes expand expotentially e.g. lithium batteries.
Also, in general as less aware of carvan tech but the capability of a 2025 model is going to be better than a 2019. Not obvs for a utility energy product but in just about everything else manufactured "new" is generally "better", even if at a higher price.
@@atlanticcaravansUK Every body jumped on the covid band waggon, now the chickens are coming home to roost, you are correct about energy and fuel pricing, I have a freind who works for centrica (British gas) and take a look at their profit, with the boss of that outfit on 8.2 million a year.
Caravan prices on the continent are much cheaper. Thanks Boris.
Bought our first van for £600 20 yrs ago. Loved it. Sold it for 1200. Bought a beautiful Ace for 7k 2 yrs. later sold it for more. Now even decent second hand vans cost 15k plus. Add fuel couple of hundred etc. Oh and by the way a few years ago site fees were around 20/25 per night Reasonable.
Now they want double that. All got greedy after Covid. Cheaper to go on a package holiday.
I worked for a small Caravan company back in the early 60's were we used to build touring caravans and static vans of all sizes even down to custom caravans made to order. Unlike many of todays touring vans the ones we built had a proper chassis with independent suspension, floors that didn't deteriorate and caravans that didn't get damp or leak. Why can't they do that today.
It’s is different from back then now, have a look at my other video ‘is it our fault’ I think our expectations are the problem.
First van was a fifteen foot Thomson Glenalmond. Remember it with affection. Apart from the luxurious interior it had proper chassis, marine ply floor and proper wishbone type suspension with shock absorbers. 1970 model. Paid £350 for it in 1973 and sold it eight years later for £850. Outrageous inflation. Nothing changes.
great info again. thankyou
All these mod cons in new vans must drive the prices up.30 yrs ago we survived easily without all these new gimmicks. I had an ABI marauder then and to us it was perfect . we're terrified of getting a gas refill nowadays we just use those marvellous little camping gas cookers.it's almost like they are now catering for rich people.
Have a look at this video.
ua-cam.com/video/aqARjeRr7L4/v-deo.htmlsi=dp0DCqr7OtVTpHCt
Er... You might be happy with that but the vast majority of buyers and, certainly younger buyers wouldn't at all. They want modernity. Even if wrapped in retro chic. This after all is what progress is.
Just like car sales are slowing down people are hanging on to what they have got. Same with caravans plus site costs fuel costs everything is costing more. Love listening to you very interesting.
great information cheers..............
We purchased a new Adria 2021 two years later the price increased 13-14 k thats a 30 % increase...Hmm and new caravans arnt selling. I WONDER WHY THAT IS
Unsold caravans will be the least our problems.According to the Telegraph today UK is heading towards bankruptcy with catastrophic consequences
Blimey, I thought I was being a bit of a doom munger..
Oh course the Torygraph would spout that shit 😂
@@theelectrichobo829 The Telegraph! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.
Well if its in the papers it must be true.
I thought the Country already was bankrupt ! If it wasn't before, it most definitely will be, with a Labour Chancellor at the helm - and a female one at that - double whammy !
We have long considered buying a caravan upgrading from a huge Tent, but looking at the cost implications and outlay to own one, I think we should just continue to enjoy our camping experience for a few years more…
It doesn’t have to be expensive, I’ve just sold a cracker for £3k.
Sold mine for £3,500, £500 less than I paid for it years before. Take experienced caravanner with you to check it out. Smells of smokers, dogs, worst of all: Damp! It's a no no.
I have booked a caravan in Porthmadog 4 nights this October half term. £136 for 2 kids and the wife. Years ago we looked at getting a static caravan for our older 2 kids. Glad we never bothered. Doesn't make financial sense. Same with mobile caravans. Fees now are ridiculous.
Caravan industry has been far to greedy over the past few years taking advantage of the new customer base. That new customer base has gone and only the existing customers are left. I am not upgrading as prices are way over the top and quite happy to stick with what I have got until the market resets.
Can’t disagree with dealers making hay while the sun shone, and the new customer base is adding fuel to the fire by pushing stock back into the market. Definitely agree with the cost to change being an issue after the amount of comments on here.
refreshing to hear a Real world honest description.
I run the motorhome side for a dealership near you and do a vlog monthly describing the market and other stuff.
Weirdly motorhomes nowhere nearly so badly effected , I tbink as we have many more manufacturers, styles and things people do with them.
What is different is the large amount of retail px from the spike in first time buters 2-3 years ago bow changing their vans which is causing big cashflow issues for some dealers.
Its just the market resetting im sure and will work itself out bit it will be painful to terminal for some and has already
What’s your vlog, I’ll have a look. I also think, and correct me if I’m wrong, but people buying £50k plus motorhomes probably aren’t as affected by the cost of living crisis. I’m selling caravans on average of around 11k, people with mortgages and the worry or fact that they have gone up sometimes £500 a month is stopping people spending on a luxury like a caravan..
I run the motorhomes at Highbridge Devon do a monthly vlog on our youtube page, try to describe things how it is.
You're bang on the cist of living has hit the less expensive end if the market bit we are seeing it in motorhomes too.
I strive to do the job right as by the sound of it you do too, we are just seeing the bulk of reta px deals and small balances to change but luckily we can cope with that but I wouldn't want to deal with it as a smaller dealer , the market is having a reset and that's healthy long term .
Great vid and if ever you're passing pop in for a brew - Jody
@@Nagsheadwarriorevery time I go past I can’t quite believe the amount of stock you have in there.. if I’d have decided to leave Stowford 6 months earlier, I reckon we would have bought that place instead of where we ended up.. every time I go past I think I should pop in. I’ve known Mathew for years after getting to know him working at the shows.
@@atlanticcaravansUKproper full isn't it!
Pop in for a brew some time
Right from the 1st 30 seconds I was thinking 'why the model year ?'... which you address at about 22 - 23 mins in.
Seems like the van manufacturers business model is selling lots of demo vans to dealers, rather than making vans for users. And just push the problem onto the dealer to shift the demo models by hook or by crook.
Eventually that will come crashing down.
Me and my wife have been caravaning for about 20yrs and are on our 5th caravan.we have started going abroad again not in our caravan but in hotels due to it being cheaper than the sites. Paying £35 -£40 per night has just gone too far. We like service pitches due too health issues it makes it easyer for us. We are also holing on to our caravan as we can't afford £25000 to renew. Everything has just gone up too much. Dealers went greedy through covid.were still going away in the caravan but no where near as much.
I think I’m going to have to address this greed thing in a video. There isn’t a market in the world that doesn’t increase prices when demand is high, it’s just commerce.
It was great when dealers were selling caravans and campervans at list price plus, a couple of years ago. Great profit then. Now they’re going to struggle. What goes around comes around.
Cycling industry has gone through exactly what you're predicting - a mahoosive boom in sales and shortages during Covid, massive over-ordering, then bust as the demand disappears and the massive over-ordering finds its way to the retailers that can't sell it now.
Result... widespread fire sales, retailers and distributors going bust, amd lost of jobs being lost all round.
Oh dear, I’d like to think that wouldn’t happen to us, but just because it’s hasn’t yet, doesn’t mean it won’t.
Interesting video, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
We bought a Caravan and stopped going abroad for holidays when we got our dog as we wouldn’t be happy going away without her.
I do think site fees are too high for what is basically just a parking space.
Even CLs are adding stuff on top like extra for EHU , Awnings and pets?🤔 Certainly not a cheap holiday anymore, especially when you consider we are providing our own accommodation.
Did anyone have our experience with massive amounts of damp in a 2014 Compass Rallye? Supposed to be damp-free with SOLID construction. We are out of caravanning, period!
Be even worse when labour start putting fuel and road tax up, heavy tow cars will be frighteningly expensive to run.then to be forced into expensive inefficient for towing EVs.. The end is nigh I'm afraid
Im afraid you are right! You will own nothing and be happy! Great!!!!
I personnaly think the the massive increases in site fees is a large contribution to the situation (I know not totally their fault ?). Lots of people moved to caravans & motorhomes during the pandemic. Lots of them may have actually enjoyed it, but the high rise in using them has put them off continuing to use them when they compare the costs against hotels/holiday parks/holidays abroad (when they add up site fees, fuel, insurance, servicing & possibly storage fees ?). We are both retired & we so caravan & motorhome rallies, we cannot afford any of the main commercial sites.
The main reason we have a caravan is so we can take the dog. If these were more pet friendly hotels we would probably stop caravaning. The price of pitches is the main problem.
Dont worry, we'll all be living in caravans soon!
I wouldn't mind that but where will I be allowed to park it ?
@@chrishart8548 I'm sure more designatet sites will be given residential licences!
@@Neostorm1964 I do hope so. If it was just my choice I would be out of my £1400 a month 3 bed semi like a shot.
@chrishart8548 due to the sale of a smallholding I'd been renting for years, I'm now on a very nice residential (security gated, lovely shower facilities/ etc)caravan park. My only bill is £520 a month! I have solar, so don't need electric.
@@Neostorm1964 that sounds fantastic. Especially the solar. Hope it keeps working out into the future. All the best 👍
And today Broadlane call in administrators, that's 3 decent sized dealers in recent weeks
@@distinctreflections yes, such a shame, unfortunately I don’t think they will be the only casualties.
There is a financial crisis,insecurity,record interest and house prices at record highs, hugely expensive site and ferry costs, generally huge pressures and lots of competing pressures.This is without high prices for rapidly depreciating caravans.Its over and not just for now.Electric cars and a poorer public are not helping either.
The static caravan industry is the same . Prices are bloody ridiculous and there are fields of them around the hull area . Absolutely scandalous
Net zero, is going to be the biggest problem for caravan and motorhome manufacturers and dealers
Strip down a caravan not even too old when they usually leak and many made of totally mediocre materials. Overpriced for what you get. Secondhand ones always have design issues they keep repeating.
unreliable and poor quality products means that warranty is a significant issue. The "return to base" warranty gives rise to poor relationship between customers and dealers when customers have shopped around for a good deal on initial purchase but which takes them up country.. I've been told many times over they years that it is the manufacturers who hold the key to improving the flexible warranty situation, they should get on and do it. You suggest that it may takes several years for the current situation to unfold and then correct itself. That will take us ever closer to the upcoming era of EV motoring (with range and towing capacity limitations) which will be the next challenge to the touring caravan industry.
bad when the dealer tells you they are crap falling apart and leaking the whole experience is far to expensive now even the site fees are sky high people are going to think why bother after all we don't get the best weather
Its the first thing in a line of things disappearing on the way to net zero.
I'm not surprised at all, new and used prices shot up during and after Covid, the industry created an unsustainable market. The value proposition of Caravans stopped adding up for most potential buyers. Add to the that storage fees and rising site fees, plus the lack of pitches available at good sites during peak times then its just easier to go Airbnb etc. In my experience the idea of roaming freedom with a caravan is a myth in the UK. Good sites are often booked up months in advance, so you can't actually tour around spontaneously, that takes sum of the fun and freedom out of the equation. On the plus side there are some good prices in the used private sales market in recent weeks.
Unfortunately greed took over, as it did with the site fees, the same has applied in camper vans as well, that pushed the price of vans up through the roof. It's now cheaper to go abroad twice a year all inclusive than it is to holiday in the UK. Is cost of living an issue, yes but I don't think its the major factor, is the cost of finance impacting, yes that's likely. But ultimately it boils down to everyone wanting more for less. It's a real shame, and this video is a vivid insight into how the dealerships stuff works, must be really tough for the small ones or even the independents.
I don’t think it’s greed, have a look at this video on my thoughts on that.
ua-cam.com/video/j7cN3STR8KY/v-deo.htmlsi=A9ZDwn-Iaj0Nt-K_
It's funny as when I kept saying this was coming people said I was wrong. It was obvious prices are keep going up but wages weren't going up anywhere near as quick. Adria vans used to be 16K same van now nearly 30K. I appreciate some stuff going up but usually, recessions push prices down it isn't this year at present. I sold my caravan last year as new this was coming. Quite a few dealers are at tipping point now. So the manufacturers need to start pushing back on their parts producers. The issue in caravan/motorhome is there aren't lots of options for buying e.g Fridges, Alko parts. Easy in car industry to keep the prices down. The big elephant in the room is some dealers will have big tax bills to pay at the same time. The other one is pitch fees. I started looking to get a caravan again but 40/50 quid a night for a space on a field plus some electric. Cheaper to get hotels or statics now than caravans.
It is worrying for us dealers, not so much for the public I’d say, the choice to buy new is now beyond the means of more and more people every time the prices go up, which seams to be quarterly at the moment, hopefully the pre owned market will get a bit of a reset now bringing those back to where they should be.
@@atlanticcaravansUK saw a dealer took 8k off a 32k van
@@RollingwithTheRobsons yeah, just desperate to move the stock with the new vans coming down the line and day now. So glad I stopped new.
You will not be able to tow a caravan now all cars are 1500 cc engines and electric cars we are all knackered
I dont understand why the industry dont see the relationship with the motor industry, new vehicles are not diesel, and availability of suitable tow cars are now limited electric cars just dont suit, and land rovers, no one can insure them now and thats because most are stolen. then there are the camp sites, with a caravan you Cannot side of the road camp, wild camp, and the pitch prices have doubled. its a complete disaster, new tow cars rising cost, insurance doubling, finance costs explosion and ridiculous cost of caravans. its a rich mans game and no one is rich with mortgage costs rising dramatically, and more and more being affected kicking in. This is a cost of living crising knock on effect. food costs, eating out costs, electric and even gas bottles, and repairs taking AGES.
The price of a berth has sky rocketed . Sites have gone out of the world on prices .l have cut back putting mine away for the year and l will not be getting it out untill price comes down it will stay in storage
As for electric cars! I work for a bus manufacturing company. Two years ago we were told that we were no longer building diesels and the future was electric. After two years the operators are no longer ordering electrics and we have large orders for diesels. Mainly for Scotland as they dont have the infrastructure for charging and lithium batteries lose too much capacity when its cold. And theyre EXPENSIVE to recycle. When you see HGVs going out double crewed in electric vehicles you know batteries have improved. But don't hold your breath
I think the whole electric thing will flip, just like the mini disk when a better technology came along. Someone’s pushing that agenda from up top because they’re making money. I can see it working when the technology catches up with the idea, or hopefully hydrogen gets cracked.
Sometime last year I listened to John bamford ( JCB ) berating a BBC journalist/researcher after he was asked about diggers/scrapers etc still running on fossil fuel. I can't remember the exact response but it was terse and succinct. But it went along the line with SMALL VEHICLES ARE OK WITH BATTERIES BUT HEAVY MACHINES NEED FOSSIL FUEL.. how can a commercial vehicle be viable or any use if it needs to be on charge far longer than it is being of use. A single decker fully charged electric bus is doing 130 miles. Trust me I know this.
Also I've listened to a fireman telling us about the dangers of lithium batteries. Can only be extinguished by copious amounts of sand. Water is as much use as trying to put out a burning fire by throwing a bucket of petrol at it. An electric vehicle prevents any spontaneous journeys.
I had a customer tell me the story of his journey to north wales a few days ago in an electric car, it was a nightmare. I just don’t get it.
Interesting comments you are receiving, I don't see any actual reference to facts though. Since 2014 we have been driving electric only vehicles, not towing just driving. We cover the entire UK and Ireland in them. Here's a few FACTS, never had a fire, never run out of power never had any issues at all. The current Tesla Model Y long range does around 330 miles in summer and around 285 in winter, we have been in it for nearly 2 years now, no annual maintenance required, charging off our own home solar or via Octopus overnight 7.5pence per Kilowatt package so the average 260 mile weekend round trip costs around £2.00 to £4.80 we also charge our portable Bluetti power pack off overnight Octopus and top it up via the Tesla whilst on the move using the 12V outlet in the boot. There are working chargers literally everywhere, and lots of them too, best of all the Tesla 'up-time' is better the 99.8% (that's yet another real fact not waffle).
Right now we don't tow as we have a seasonal pitch which is eye-wateringly expensive as is the on-site power which we try to avoid hence the Bluetti for running stuff. So saying I know folk (real people I actually know myself) who have the same car who tow charging every 100 miles when they take their usual pee and eat stop. With a little bit of planning we can all reduce our reliance of fuels that are killing our kids. Try these things yourself before repeating half-truths usually put out by the petro-chemical industry, remember most mainline newspapers are funded by big oil and car manufacturers via advertising, there are around 385 ICE car fires per 1 EV car fire. The last big fire earlier this year was caused by a Range Rover which burnt down an entire car park including all the vehicles therein. Make up your own minds about electric, they do need improvements regarding speed of charge when on the move and battery range when towing but its getting better in leaps and bounds, 400 mile ranges are becoming the norm with 500 mile ranges in the offing, meanwhile you can still buy an ICE vehicle right up to 2035 and run it until say 2045 which should see most of us older drivers to end of life....well me for sure being 71 !
On top of the cost of buying a caravan, annual servicing, insurance, site fees have shot through the roof in the last couple of years. Talking to site owners, all of them have seen a reduction in bookings. Where someone might go away a summer holiday plus 4 pr 5 weekends a year, they are cutting back to a main holiday and one or two weekends. If everyone does this, then the sites start to really suffer. For people new to caravanning, the costs are rapidly putting it out of reach of families and everyday folk.
Definitely, it’s no longer a cheap holiday.
Site fees are a massive factor in this . Greedy site owners with unrealistic inflated prices . You can stay in a luxury hotel breakfast included for the same price .
Really enjoyed this. Definitely sounds an issue.
Cool, glad you enjoyed it, check out my latest ramble.
ua-cam.com/video/j7cN3STR8KY/v-deo.htmlsi=JdjsjQtN01PJjKDc
The auction sites have been flooded with 2023 stock I got one 30% discount a great buy.
Yes, some of those still around as well, I’ve still got one here new..
Darren ,what a mess,I did buy new last year and was thinking of upgrade maybe not so keen now.😢 hope your able to ride the storm.
Hopefully it will pick up, if you bought last year I would have thought it probably wouldn’t be worth the price to change..