Interview with Dan Clark - DCA Stealth, Expanse and headphone stuff
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- An interview with Dan Clark from Dan Clark Audio (DCA) to discuss what went wrong with the first pair of DCA Stealths I reviewed, what makes the Expanse a great headphone (because it is), and the factors that go into making great sounding headphones.
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00:00 Introduction
00:32 What was the problem with the original pair of Stealths that I reviewed?
03:43 How can people prolong the life of their pads?
05:44 What's involved to replace pads?
07:14 Do the Stealth and Expanse use the same driver?
08:35 Is the Expanse grille design acoustic or only aesthetic?
11:19 How to you balance / prioritise tonality vs soundstage perception?
19:31 Differences between closed and open back for staging
22:42 Do the Expanse and Stealth need burn-in?
28:41 How do you make the headphones play transients well?
37:04 What contributes to width and depth in the soundstage?
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#audiophile #interview #headphones - Наука та технологія
Thank you for doing these interviews. Its always very interesting to listen to knowledgeable individuals such as Dan talking about their field.
Glad you like them! I agree too - there's always lots we can learn
humble and nice guy , even if im usually 2nd hand buyer, make me want to buy new from DCA site
Thanks for asking the question about burn-in! So refreshing to hear someone like Dan Clark explain the technical changes that occur in planar drivers.
My pleasure! I agree that the level of detail provided was excellent
For headphones I like to call it “break in”, to differentiate this legitimate process from all the cable/DAC woo!
I don't know about cables, but it's real for electrical components such as capacitors so any device (DAC, amp, etc.) with capacitors absolutely needs burn-in too. That said, the time required and degree of change that some people describe often has me scratching my head when many manufacturers do burn-in as part of their QA processes before shipping.
Thanks for organising this informative interview. Great to hear straight from the source
My pleasure. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Great interview Lochalan, thank you. And hey, no audio or video issues on this one at all, keep it up man.
Thanks Tai Dee! I'm working hard to get the audio better on interviews (think I've got it right now) and also on the "produced" content too
That explanation of what 'soundstage' is, was excellent! Kudos to you for being able to extract this knowledge from Dan.
Thanks g99! It's always a matter of finding the info we can glean without stealing trade secrets 🙂
Interestingly many reviewers consider the soundstage on the Expanse to be notably poor.
Soundstage is a very interesting one. I think Dan's explanation of soundstage was excellent, but I don't necessarily agree with his assessment of the Expanse's staging capabilities. I'm still finalising my thoughts for the review.
I just acquired an E3, and I’m astonished by what he achieved sonically and aesthetically at half the price of his flagships. I admire him for introducing a 5th generation of his proprietary driver in one of his “mid-tier” offerings, and I’d like to see this as him honestly reflecting the decrease in cost associated with technological advancement. With this E3 I think he’s joined HiFiMan in offering the finest possible performance and build quality at more accessible prices.
Thanks for sharing that. I'm yet to try the E3, but hope to.
@@PassionforSound It’s truly extraordinary. I don’t have the Stealth or Expanse available to do a direct comparison (although I’ve heard them both extensively) but I’m firmly convinced that I would not be able to tell a difference. The clarity of the E3 is sublime, it’s daringly aligned with Harman, and the build and design are to die for.
Through some demonic origami magic he managed to make these full-size headphones with enormous drivers collapse down with one move into a tiny little form factor (that with its electric blue accents looks wicked cool) that fits neatly into a compact case for travel.
The first pair I received was unfortunately defective-it had a completely absent bass response that I cannot make sense of for the life of me, but I was able to return them at no cost for a replacement, and this one is perfect. I hope you’ll be able to review them soon because I’d love to hear your thoughts.
I already have too many costly headphones, and I primarily went for these to round out my collection with a proper closed back (I never listen to my Sony Z1Rs, which were my first big-boy headphone purchase). This was also my first truly Harman-compliant headphone.
For those purposes I foresee it being my go-to (for travel absolutely), but nothing-not my Utopias, Meze Elites or HE1000ses-has yet to thrill me like my HE1000 Stealths. I cannot think of any way I’d improve on them. The DCAs may nail Harman, but the HEK Stealths do plenty well enough, and they fill in the mid bass in a signature I prefer. Nothing matches them in the low end for me, and I find them less fatiguing than the HEKse. I have all these choices and I rarely reach for any other! Maybe it’s time to go off the headphone market for me!
Glad you're having so much fun - that's brilliant!
Enjoyed this a lot, thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it, Peter! Thanks for letting me know :)
It’s been amazing to watch your content scope, quality and outstanding value to the community continue to grow! Really looking forward to this one. Thank you as always for putting your passion into this amazing content for all to see.
As a huge fan of your channel, and a fan of Ferrum audio, I would love to see you interview someone on the team. It seems Ferrum will be releasing a standalone DAC soon to complement their Oor.
Hi Matt, thanks for the kind words! I'm so glad to know that people like you enjoy the range of content!
I'd love to chat to someone from Ferrum. I'll reach out and see if I can start with a review.
@@PassionforSound Wow! Amazing. I’d lend you mine if I lived in Australia!
Thanks Matt! It's one of the few drawbacks of living in Australia. Much harder to get gear for reviews
I’m a big Dan Clark fan but have not heard the stealth nor expanse. I have owned the aeon 2 noire and for the money is a great set.
The Aeon 2 Noire might still be the best headphone he's made in terms of bang for buck. The Expanse and Stealth are excellent, but neither will be good for everyone. The Noire is pretty hard to imagine anyone not appreciating
I love the innovation!
Always nice to see some 🙂
I completely agree with Dan's statement about the soundstage "depth of field" of the Expanse. The Expanse sounds intimate like a standard closed-back headphone some of the time. But when a sound echoes into the distance, it can sound very far away. It's quite profound how much range there is in the soundfield of this headphone. I also find it to be not only very deep in terms of forwardness, but it's also very wide from left to right. The "front seat" is not as close directly to the left or right as it is with most headphones, probably because of the AMTS filter cutting down on reflections and modes. Very unusual stuff. I am loving my new Expanse!
Glad you're loving your Expanse!
This was an excellent educational interview. I believe Dan has a handle on the compromise between musicality and technical performance. The Expanse is an outstanding example of this philosophy. Most people who simply want one headphone that does everything very well would be very pleased by the Expanse.
Well said, Neil. I definitely agree on all counts. I wasn't a fan of some of Mr Speakers' / DCA's earlier headphones, but the Noire, Stealth and Expanse are all excellent in their own ways - particularly the Expanse
@@PassionforSound What's your opinion on the Ether 2? I don't believe the Stealth is THAT different in tuning, but I heard the pads can make a big difference (I bought one recently, but only had the chance to use it with the suede pads so far).
I haven't tried the Ether 2, but based on everything I've read/heard about them they will be quite different. The AMTS system makes a big difference with the Stealth and Expanse too
@@PassionforSound From what I've heard, the Stealth does everything the Ether 2 does, but better (except maybe for soundstage). It's as if the house signature were already properly established after the Ether 2, but it was further developed in the most recent flagships. The Ether 2 is also a very linear, highly capable headphone and which allows you to hear very deep into the music. A lot of people perceive it as "less musical" compared to, say, ZMF headphones, but the approach to sound is what I really like. All the details are there but nothing is being forced into you. You can get lost in the music if you pay attention to it, but you can also leave the music in the background. Now, that quality is very rare in headphones and I really appreciate this in Dan Clark's philosophy.
Thank you for this interview…just bought the Aeon RT closed back.. in the case of brass instruments, they’re clear lacquered to preserve the shine…and the repair shops had discovered that some people have a more acidic oils in their skin, which causes the lacquer to degrade prematurely,.which in this case might be a factor..
That's an interesting insight - thanks Foxrock!
Is this a result of my own echo chamber, or does Dan do interviews and appearances way more than any other headphone manufacturer? It's great to hear the engineering details that he's gone into over various different appearances.
I can't answer the broader question, but I've chatted to Zach & Bevin from ZMF more times than Dan. 🙂
Always a pleasure to listen Dan. Such a nice guy, love his approach in building headphones.
I really like that he is trying corelate subjective impressions and hoe we hear with objective data and science. This is approach I would love to see in other companies.
Ps. Stealth are the only headphones that are staying in my house for such long time without even thinking about others.... Ok maybe only expanse ;p
Glad you enjoyed the interview! I haven't always been a fan of DCA products, but since the Aeon Noire and now the Stealth and Expanse, I feel like they're really onto something.
@@PassionforSound no wonder. Paying attention to details and following science payed dividends.
@@PassionforSound keep it up. Always nice to hear what designers have to say about their work.
I agree. The ability to blend the objective and subjective here again too. That seems to be the consistently best approach when I look at the gear I enjoy most (TT2, DCA Expanse, etc.)
@@PassionforSound yes, sound is not coming from something magical, as many manufacturers want us to believe in some kind of esoteric sh*t.
These devices are electrical/mechanical their sound is coming from technical merits not some mumbo jumbo ;)
Great Video! I got the ÆON Flow and need new Pads. Should i go for the ÆON 2 Noire ones? Ty
I haven't tried the Flow so I can't say - sorry! What I would say is that pads for closed backs (Noire) will rarely suit an open back like the Flow
@@PassionforSound That's what DCA HP say about it:
AEON Flow Open owners may want to consider the alternate perforated ear pads if a larger soundstage and a more vibrant midrange are desired.
Oh cool. Definitely go with their suggestions over my comment because mine was based on other brand headphones
Wait, I get more mid bass from worn pads?! Can’t wait! Haha
Haha. Let the pad modding begin! 😁
Around 13:00 and onward - this is definitely my preference. Depth and layering in the "soundstage". If elements of the mix are near or intimate but other elements are placed at a distance to each other then it really provides an immersive sense of the music taking place in a given space (depending on the track composition of course). This was the hardest thing to live without when I sold the Noire. The Noire has a fantastic sense of depth, if that's been improved upon with the Expanse.. that's awfully tempting. Provided the Expanse offers what the Noire does not with some sense of weight and impact to notes.
(edit) Oh and burn-in isn't real. If it is, then please manufacturers do not sell us headphones that do not already have whatever your recommended period of burn-in already applied. Otherwise ---> it's a myth homie. No disagreement from me that the physical components of the headphone driver composition change over time, or that they do not wear, of course they do, but the impact to sound being the difference between enjoyment and ambivalence? Nah.. not buying that. The psychological factor in terms of normalizing the character of the headphone > mechanical "burn-in".
I think the Expanse definitely improve on the Noire in every area, and are also more tonally similar to the Noire than the Stealth.
Why do you have such resistance to burn-in being real?
@@PassionforSound with regards to burn-in I am overexaggerating my position. It's not a hill I'm going to die on but a hill I'll pretend to die on? Sure. I just think, like a couple of things in the hobby, it's something that gets too much attention without anything other than anecdotal support. From our discussions you know what I own and owned, yet I've yet to experience it. I have however had a headphone grow on me over time, but none of the key characteristics from first listening sessions ever changed. What I found was this hobby expanded my willingness to listen to different, even newer types of music, which allowed me different ways to experience all my gear. Headphones especially. So what may have sounded dry and compressed evolved with my listening to be more focused and textured. I've yet to hear anything get "tighter" over time, or expand without a pad or source swap. My contention has never been that drivers, pads, and dampening do not physically change with use but that they do not uniformly produce more desirable listening traits as they do. That's nonsense to me. And again.. if the recommended burn-in period for a DCA headphone is say 200 hours sum total for baseline optimal results - then for the price we pay burn them in before you sell them. Seems reasonable no?
Working backwards from your post, I think the sheer backlog it would create to burn-in every headphone for 200 hours is too much for most companies to manage. Consider if they are burning-in 100 headphones per week (I have no idea of their sales volumes), the difference between a combined 2000 hours of burn-in (if doing 20 hours per headphone) vs 20000 hours of burn-in (200 per headphone) is a big jump. That's 833 days worth of burn-in if they are producing 100 headphones per week so think about the space and cost required for that plus the delays on the production queue.
Then, as for your experiences of burn-in, I totally get that you wouldn't have heard it because not all headphones seem to alter significantly in my experience. In fact, I'd say that those significantly affected by burn-in are a distinct minority. Of all the headphones I've tested, the only ones where I've really noticed a change in things like openness, transient quality, etc. (the things not attributable to brain adjustment) are the HiFiMan Arya Stealth, Meze Elite and DCA Expanse. Perhaps the Sendy Peacock did this too, but I'm less certain on that one.
Big bass ❤❤❤
You owe me 6 grand gbp
I've just bought the Elite and Expanse in the last week, your damn reviews 🤣🎧
Sorry and you're welcome? 😉🙂
Hello ! Do you think that for a music producer and mixer, the Expanse, the Stealth or the E3 could be used as reference monitoring ? I'm looking for a balanced sound. I'm looking for the End-game for mixers and musicians in the studio, and I'm not sure Audeze is it.
DCA uses the Harman curve to eq the FR of his headphones. I'm a bit afraid about the amount of bass of the 80s Harman curve version. I'm afraid there's a bit too much bass. Also afraid about what happens above 10k. The curve seems to be totally off in this area on most headphones. Makes me wonder if a producer can judge anything up there, based on what the headphone emits. For a producer the important thing is universal translation ; the music you create with the headphone must sound right on every other system. So the quest is really to find the perfect middle ground in term of FR (how to configure EQs and balance the mixes), and with excellent technicalities excellent speed notably, to be able to judge the dynamics (how to configure compressors). Also, low distortion is great, cause it doesn't lie to your ear. DIstortion makes things exciting, but the musician/producer should be presented with a distortion-free sound reproduction of the music he creates, in order to apply distortion, when and where he sees fit.
Any help appreciated on this topic. I can't find a shop where I can listen the DCAs.. I think I'd go with the Expanse, or the E3. The E3 seems to have a more neutral FR (a tad less bass isn't it ?), but I'm told the 5th gen driver is a tiny bit slower (tiny bit more distoriton down low too), so the E3 has a plus and a minus when compared to the Expanse.
I wanted to love the LCD-5 but the FR is just not there at all... Detail might be there yes, but it's too far off the Harman curve. If you balance your mix on something bass-light, you end up with way too much bass on other systems ! This thing is so tricky for musicians.... The headphones has to be perfectly neutral when you work or you're f*****. The way I work, I can't eq the headphones... The can sound feeds directly from the console. Tuning has to be perfect out of the box.
I'm kind of afraid also of closed-back headphone because the sound changes more depending on how it is positioned on the head. I think I read that open-back headphone don't have that side effect too much. I nwhich case a open-back is clearly the way to go... You can't make mix moves to then question everything the next day... There must be some sense of stability in the sound reproduction.
Would you recommend the Phonitor 2 to pair with the DCA ? I specifically want to use the crossfeed function to emulate speakers monitors more. It helps to place the instruments, when you have crossfeed.
Ok thanks for your content, it's very appreciated and helpful !
First off, the Phonitor is an excellent choice for production IMO due to the versatility of the crossfeed function it has.
As for the headphones, I think most producers will rely on studio monitors for the majority of mixing and mastering with headphones as a secondary option only. Part of that is due to the staging of headphones being harder to mix with. The other part is likely the frequency response issues you've raised.
I haven't heard the E3, but the Stealth and Expanse are both relatively coloured (although not as much as some others) and I'd be wanting to apply some sort of EQ to both before trying to mix with them. What if actually recommend is buying a headphone like the Ollo S4X / S4R and spend the money you've saved on a decent set of active monitors so you can swing between headphones and monitors as needed.
If you're absolutely set on headphones, the DCAs could work, but you'll either need to apply EQ to them or compensate for their tonality when you're mixing (mixing on the Stealth would need to be careful to avoid excess midbass and mixes on the Expanse would need to careful of having too little bass and sub-bass)
@@PassionforSound Thanks for your answer :D !! A fresh perspective :).
I wanted to buy D&D 8c monitors, but the money is just not there, and the room I was about to acquire has gone up in price, so I'm left in a situation where I can't treat correctly my room, nor can I make a lot of noise. The solution for the short/mid term is, I think, high-end neutral headphones...
I was under the impression than the DCA Stealth and Expanse had a neutral tuning, as it follows the harman curve. There are not many headphone that follow the Harman curve. I understand that this curve reproduces the sound of neutral monitors (measuring flat in an anechoic chamber) in a treated room. So if I follow this principle, these should sound like monitors...
But then there are other people that consider the LCD-5 very neutral while I presonally find these kind of curve very bass light.
Actually I've had extensive listening time with both the beyerdynamic DT770 and the DT880. I *loved* the DT770, it's the one headphone I've used the most and with which I've made my best mixes. The only critics I have on their sound is the "one-note-bass" kind of low end (a bit blurry), sometimes fatiguing highs, and overall not supremely resolving sound. But I found that the bass amount was about right (maybe a tiny tiny tiny tiiiiny bit too much). I used the 770 for 8 years straight and at some point the it broke.
As of today the 770 is my only headphone love story. I never tried anything above in term of price range.
I read online at the time, that the 880 could be an upgrade in term of neutrality and detail for mix purposes. So I bought the 880. Long story short I didn't liked it at all. It was lacking energy in the lows compared to the 770, and was annoying up top. I've never been able to mix with the 880. When I tried, I end up with horribly bassy mixes on other systems. I gave the 880 to my grandma who happily watches TV with it.
I solely rely on APS Klasik monitors right now but I won't be able to use them much in the room I'm going to work in. I need to switch to headphones.
I've looked at the 770 curve on Rtings.com yesterday and I realized that it is, like shockingly, SPOT ON on the Harman curve, in the bass. Quite amazing, and in contrast the 880 is crucially lacking under 100hz !
www.rtings.com/headphones/1-5/graph/7903/frequency-response/beyerdynamic-dt-770-pro-vs-beyerdynamic-dt-880/440/431
So what I get from these Beyerdynamic curves is that I genuinely like the harman curve. I must be from the "type 1 harman listener", those that like the bass curve of the vanilla Harman curve.
I produce electronic music, so bass has to *be there*, and a driving force at that. But my dream would be to have more informations presented to me, more than what the DT770 offered me. I'm also looking for a headphone that is revealing of all the details, and importantly the micro dynamic, a fast headphone, so that I can hear more precisely my compressors, and be able to find their settings... These things are almost impossible to do on the DT770 or 880. They don't offer this level of detail I believe.
I've analyzing many high end headphones frequency responses, and really the one that seem quite close to the 770 but better overall are the DCA ones... Recently I read weird things about them though. It's said that they are lacking in micro dynamic, that they don't have punch. I don't know what this means.. Sometimes I read something and its opposite. It's quite hard to form an opinion when you watch many reviews.
((( I think that it will be easy to put a little one band hardware eq on my masterbuss to remove the 100hz "dB boost of the DCA. Honestly it's the easiest hadphones to eq out there haha. It's one of their qualities I find. They can be EQed with hardware without too much hassle)))
Ultimately, you need to go with what you're comfortable with, but be aware that the Harman curve is not a neutral curve. Where that target curve came from was a study to see what consumers tended to enjoy as a frequency response. It's an average of a whole lot of people's preferences. This means that it's a distinct colouration of the sound and not neutral.
What that means is that mixing with a Harman tuned headphone will require some compensation by the mixer to avoid under-emphasis in the upper mids and in the lower bass.
As I said earlier, your best bet for a proper, neutrally tuned mixing headphone will be the Ollo options.
@@PassionforSound thanks man ! food for thoughts.... xxxxxxx
I didn't catch you asking, if you did forgive me but, do you expect the technology and materials used in Stealth and Expanse trickle down to DCA's other headphones in near future?
Dan had been asked this in an interview recently so I can answer: DCA don’t talk about future products.
So for now we don’t know and will just have to hope, wait, and see.
@@JimTheCoffeeGuy I see, thanks.
Thanks Jim because I also didn't ask this. 🙂
Good interview but might want to figure out how to source better material for pads
Glad you liked the interview. I would be interested to know from some pad manufacturers like Dekoni, ZMF, etc. how long they expect their pads to be at optimal performance and also how the choice of foam strength/longevity affects the sound
Huh, headphones are minimum phase devices. Any sort of physical burn-in will be directly related to the frequency response (phase + magnitude). That said, transients are also directly related to the frequency response!
Furthermore, with headphones there is only correct and incorrect soundstage of the pure recording. All of this is measurable because headphones are minimum phase.
The stealth earpad uh... Conundrum I'll call it is interesting.
Although the pad compression or wear that Dan has pointed towards may be accurate, the timeframe is not. Yes this is now an almost 12 month old headphone. But the pad issue dates back to at least the time they were with Lachlan for initial review around 10-11 months ago. I am still unconvinced of pad compression per se. I would have noticed loose fitting pads. I could not see any looseness when revisiting Lachlan's stealth review footage.
I look after my gear. Always use the spacer, no direct sunlight, and never left in a hot car (especially in Australia in summer!) Stealth is low(ish) usage as my aeons are my daily driver.
I don't have an answer to "why" this issue occurred and it frustrates me to no end. I don't like the idea of waiting until autumn/winter to buy expanse but with Dan's current explanation what other preventative choice do I have?
That's a really fair point, Jim. I would be very frustrated too to receive an expensive pair of headphones with an issue like this, but it's also true that random stuff can happen. Let's check your pair when they come back and see what we find...
Damage control.
I can't speak directly to the validity of what Dan is saying, but I haven't had the sense of any un-truths in his explanations and he's open enough to say that they don't know why this happened which I think is good. I certainly didn't notice the pads on the original pair being significantly softer than the new pair I borrowed, but I also wasn't looking for it.
Is that Andrew Tate?
I mean, it just doesn't look good to "re-do" a negative review making it positive and the very next day have a full length interview with that company.
Except that the full length interview was discussing the exact issue that occurred with the negative interview. I wanted to know why/how the issue happened with the original pair of Stealths. I figured others might want to hear/see for themselves what Dan had to say about the problem.
Sure it does.. if you do something one time and then review it again but get a different result you isolate why. In this case it’s either unit variance or the pads but in this case the pads are an easy swap. I’ve owned the VC for a bit now and disliked them at the beginning. Once I pad rolled it helped quite a bit.