Wow! 196 EDR. I thought my MST288 was small! I have a small Dunham-Bush unit heater in my basement that is over half the EDR of that boiler (100 EDR), and another large radiator that is probably close to that. Just those two together would probably be the EDR of this boiler or close to it. Counterflow systems are uncommon in my area. Only in the smallest houses or long narrow houses. Most here are parallel flow perimeter mains that snake all the way around the building. You have to watch out for the 1890s and older ones, occasionally the threads on the fittings are non standard and don't quite line up to a standard NPT thread. Other times they are close enough to fit.
@@ed6837 You might be right, but up close it looked like a lot of screws and a bent tap or two might be needed. Hope you're right & my fears be groundless.
@@the382house Thanks for your comment & question. Swing joints are common, if you know where to look. "Drop header" installations have swing joints. Anything with a 90 that is perpendicular to the axis of the expected major expansion is a swing joint. For me, it helps make the installation a bit easier, and as a side benefit adds stress relief (I think). Does it work? Can't say definitively, as a lot of the negative effects of stress may not show up for years and that makes it difficult to ascertain cause and effect.
As always quality job, we get those malleable fittings here and they are at best “dubious “thread depth can vary, some being ridiculously tight at the start, btw was the existing flue out of the wall copper??
Thank you very much! Yes, QC on import quality malleable fittings is spotty indeed, sad to say. But I try to take the long view. I sometimes come across old old "no-name" brand USA fittings, and its "back to the future", if you get my drift. Who does one think actually taught the middle kingdom etc how to make cheap cr*p? And yet I'll still buy it, so I'm not really wagging my finger at anyone except myself. And yes, that is the remains of the copper flue connector coming out of that existing flue.
Cool install. Everything looks easy to service. Does pipe insulation ever come into play on an application such as this ? I'm new to steam work, but it all looks like fun.
Thank you! We chose this boiler in part because the controls are on the right side. Insulation is almost always a good idea on steam mains. A hardy welcome to the heating steamfitter's brotherhood!
I presume your installation involved a good bit of custom black pipe lengths requiring cutting and threading. You use pro-press fittings for the copper. As you know, pro-press can be used for black pipe as well. What’s your reason for staying with threaded pipe?
Thank you for your comments & questions! In this installation, there were no custom lengths needed. All were standard off the shelf stuff. Since no cutting and threading was needed, it is quicker to assemble that then cutting, prepping, and using not cheap MegaPress fittings. We have used MegaPress on steam, but only in unique situations and not as a go-to one size fits all. We are concerned that the "o" ring in MegaPress will not hold up over time with steam as threaded pipe clearly has. We usually solder copper, but in trying to save time, we are leaning more and more on ProPress, but only for returns and water supplies. We use copper returns now only when it is already there. Threaded pipe, in theory, gives a bit to relieve stress? I may not be right on that, but it gives me some comfort that it will last a long time.
Thank you! There are only 4 radiators left (at least 2, possibly three were removed long ago). Barely 100 sq ft. According to the residents, that still keeps the townhouse plenty warm, albeit with a fair amount of water hammer. There is no longer any water hammer now. Low pressure gauges don't hold up (esp now that the clockwork frame is often made of plastic). It is usually best to install a 1/4" valve ahead of the gauge and take measurements and shut the valve when done.
Oh, gosh! I have resorted to a 38mm deep impact socket (after I rip off that steel mounting flange on the probe) and a breaker bar and hammer. I don't know if there is enough space to swing the tools in this boiler. I've thought about drilling a hole in that angled sheet metal to allow a long extension and hook-up to an impact tool.
Interesting system, Gordon. Much more piping involved than my parallel flow setup. Did the physical configuration dictate the use of counter flow piping? As far as I know, parallel flow is much more common and is preferred. Is that right?
In general, parallel flow is preferred for greater capacity over counter-flow. The price to be paid for that greater capacity is a return of some type. That unpleasant undersized (by the book) 1.5 inch copper counter-flow main was already there and largely hidden behind a lot of drywall. And we knew it banged because we heard it years ago when we first dealt with the old boiler. There were a lot of unknowns and until we started cutting out the drywall, this was a pig in a poke, as they say. We were very happy when that return started to work.
The one inch copper return goes goes up into a propress brass male adapter, which goes into a 1" stainless steel 90, which threads into a 1" stainless close nipple, which is on the 1.5 x 1 tee (the one that cracked and is shown in the thumbnail) Check time stamp 5:04.
@@nosaya3 Steam rules! This is one of the very very few cases where we didn't put on main vents. It would have required fairly extensive removal of drywall & some framing to expose the end of main piping, which would need reworking to be able to add a vent... And all for two radiators. The Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
Dunkirk seems to be decent boilers. Often sold rebranded with other names. Even HB Smith years ago sold some Dunkirks with their (Smith) name on it. Don't care for side takeoffs but since it is oversized that helps.
Side take-offs are not my favorite, agreed. The oversizing does appear to help dry out the steam much better than a 2" outlet. Seems like Dunkirk sold themselves to anyone: Sears, Montgomery Wards, etc etc.
Well you seem to be very knowledgeable, are you anywhere near south central pa? Had a new boiler installed 4years ago. And probably 20 service calls later it still don't work correctly. Parallel system, i dont think the equalizer is working as its supposed to, possibly wrong piping setup per the manufacturer's instructions. It appears to be piped as a counter flow. All i know is we had a boiler for 70yrs worked quietly and near replacement parts free. The system worked fine up until the day we replaced with a WM unit. Unfortunately the expert we had likely retired 20yrs ago. And he said he helped my grandfather in 1951 instal the old unit.
@@shanestamball1886 Thank you for the kind words. I am sorry you are having issues with your relatively new boiler. Our company serves mainly Central Maryland/Baltimore. You might try posting pictures of your boiler install and your story on Heatinghelp.com.
@Clamjammer it is set as low as it will go, i just watched WeilMcClains training video for their Authorized installers. Its disgusting, everything that should have been done Wasn't. and everything that shouldn't have been done was done. Installer was here today and removed 1"" of sludge from the skimming pipe. Someone thought it was ok to to put 4"s of riser into 2" of header. Piping is still wrong size and pressure's still isnt right. This has turned into a $10K nightmare
@@gordonschweizer5154 curious if there is any difference between a vapor system then adding a modern boiler? I know the old system was always said to have been vapor. And it was noiseless and everything heated uniformly, unlike now.
Vapor (AKA two-pipe steam) usually means the original system was designed to operate at very low pressures, usually oz/in2 or even in a vacuum. Your old boiler also likely had a large "steam chest" where the steam (or "vapor") could separate cleanly from the water and leave it behind in the boiler and be "dry" as it entered the mains and hence into the radiators. Modern boilers are much smaller, and therefore proper "near boiler piping" is a must in drying out the steam once it leaves the boiler. It sounds as if the installer did not understand this, and your near boiler piping is going to need to be redone properly.
Under 200 feet of steam and a counter flow main and a copper main. Was the copper main 1.5”? I guess if you have enough pitch on the pipe it’s able to work without hammering. I don’t recall seeing the book on steam heat I only have lost art of steam heat.
Yes, that is a 1.5 copper counterflow main. By the book, it shouldn't have worked. It hammered due to a water pocket and really bad near boiler piping, but the radiators at that end did get hot... eventually. The wet return helps divert some of the water from those two radiators at the end. There is no more water pocket. And the "start-up" condensate from that main is diverted back to the boiler via the wet return rather than splosh back against the steam into the header. That "The Golden Rules of Hydronic Heating" by D. Holohan is a useful pamphlet indeed for heating steamfitters.
Yes, indeed. And even that's a bit too large, if you can believe it. This unit actually starts cycling on pressure when run long enough (even with all that bare pipe).
Being from England i cant help but feel this is a very inefficient way of heating a house. All that volume of water you are heating to me seems very wasteful. We use small compact wall hung low water content condensing boilers. Very often you will see 6 , 8 , or 10mm pipe to radiators - about the size of a pencil ! We only use steam in hospitals , factories etc.
Very little electrical use with steam boilers. Less efficient yes but smaller carbon footprint that repiping the whole house and importing all the heat emitters and boiler from around the world
nice job
Thank you very much for your kind words
Thanks!
Another professional looking job. You’re in good company with Dan H. Thank you
Thank you very much for the nice comments!
Looks like you have done a great job installing that unit..
Thank you for your support and kind words!
I love these videos. So interesting.
Than you!
There may be more steam systems up there than you might think.
Seek them out!
Clean work! 💯
Great video
Thank you for your support and views.
Excellent job
You are most kind to say so, thank you!
Wow! 196 EDR. I thought my MST288 was small! I have a small Dunham-Bush unit heater in my basement that is over half the EDR of that boiler (100 EDR), and another large radiator that is probably close to that. Just those two together would probably be the EDR of this boiler or close to it. Counterflow systems are uncommon in my area. Only in the smallest houses or long narrow houses. Most here are parallel flow perimeter mains that snake all the way around the building. You have to watch out for the 1890s and older ones, occasionally the threads on the fittings are non standard and don't quite line up to a standard NPT thread. Other times they are close enough to fit.
Im with you on the quality of that 90 cracking
Yeah, I'm not trying to bash & trash them.
I hope they get better and wish them success.
👍👍👍✌️
I think it looks like you could pull out that plate between the burner compartment and the draft diverter to get at the LWCO probe.
@@ed6837 You might be right, but up close it looked like a lot of screws and a bent tap or two might be needed.
Hope you're right & my fears be groundless.
First time I've seen a swing joint installed in the near boiler piping. It makes perfect sense. Is it common?
@@the382house Thanks for your comment & question.
Swing joints are common, if you know where to look.
"Drop header" installations have swing joints.
Anything with a 90 that is perpendicular to the axis of the expected major expansion is a swing joint.
For me, it helps make the installation a bit easier, and as a side benefit adds stress relief (I think).
Does it work?
Can't say definitively, as a lot of the negative effects of stress may not show up for years and that makes it difficult to ascertain cause and effect.
As always quality job, we get those malleable fittings here and they are at best “dubious “thread depth can vary, some being ridiculously tight at the start, btw was the existing flue out of the wall copper??
Thank you very much!
Yes, QC on import quality malleable fittings is spotty indeed, sad to say.
But I try to take the long view.
I sometimes come across old old "no-name" brand USA fittings, and its "back to the future", if you get my drift.
Who does one think actually taught the middle kingdom etc how to make cheap cr*p?
And yet I'll still buy it, so I'm not really wagging my finger at anyone except myself.
And yes, that is the remains of the copper flue connector coming out of that existing flue.
Cool install. Everything looks easy to service. Does pipe insulation ever come into play on an application such as this ? I'm new to steam work, but it all looks like fun.
Thank you!
We chose this boiler in part because the controls are on the right side.
Insulation is almost always a good idea on steam mains.
A hardy welcome to the heating steamfitter's brotherhood!
I presume your installation involved a good bit of custom black pipe lengths requiring cutting and threading. You use pro-press fittings for the copper. As you know, pro-press can be used for black pipe as well. What’s your reason for staying with threaded pipe?
Thank you for your comments & questions!
In this installation, there were no custom lengths needed.
All were standard off the shelf stuff.
Since no cutting and threading was needed, it is quicker to assemble that then cutting, prepping, and using not cheap MegaPress fittings.
We have used MegaPress on steam, but only in unique situations and not as a go-to one size fits all.
We are concerned that the "o" ring in MegaPress will not hold up over time with steam as threaded pipe clearly has.
We usually solder copper, but in trying to save time, we are leaning more and more on ProPress, but only for returns and water supplies.
We use copper returns now only when it is already there.
Threaded pipe, in theory, gives a bit to relieve stress?
I may not be right on that, but it gives me some comfort that it will last a long time.
Great work again. How many square feet is the house? Are the low pressure gauges holding up over time? I haven't seen one in a while.
Thank you!
There are only 4 radiators left (at least 2, possibly three were removed long ago). Barely 100 sq ft.
According to the residents, that still keeps the townhouse plenty warm, albeit with a fair amount of water hammer.
There is no longer any water hammer now.
Low pressure gauges don't hold up (esp now that the clockwork frame is often made of plastic).
It is usually best to install a 1/4" valve ahead of the gauge and take measurements and shut the valve when done.
i took the probe out with a basin wrench recently, absolutely hated it.
Oh, gosh!
I have resorted to a 38mm deep impact socket (after I rip off that steel mounting flange on the probe) and a breaker bar and hammer.
I don't know if there is enough space to swing the tools in this boiler.
I've thought about drilling a hole in that angled sheet metal to allow a long extension and hook-up to an impact tool.
Interesting system, Gordon. Much more piping involved than my parallel flow setup. Did the physical configuration dictate the use of counter flow piping? As far as I know, parallel flow is much more common and is preferred. Is that right?
In general, parallel flow is preferred for greater capacity over counter-flow.
The price to be paid for that greater capacity is a return of some type.
That unpleasant undersized (by the book) 1.5 inch copper counter-flow main was already there and largely hidden behind a lot of drywall.
And we knew it banged because we heard it years ago when we first dealt with the old boiler.
There were a lot of unknowns and until we started cutting out the drywall, this was a pig in a poke, as they say.
We were very happy when that return started to work.
@@gordonschweizer5154finished basements are the devil’s hiding place
Thanks Gordon. How many more years are you and Frank going to do this? Not many steam guys left.
You are welcome.
I make these videos in the hope they will continue to help others with steam heating when I am no more.
Where is the Hartford loop?
I think you tied it back to the return but I didn't see it clearly
The one inch copper return goes goes up into a propress brass male adapter, which goes into a 1" stainless steel 90, which threads into a 1" stainless close nipple, which is on the 1.5 x 1 tee (the one that cracked and is shown in the thumbnail)
Check time stamp 5:04.
Thanks
How high should the water be in the sight tube on an old snowman boiler?
Generally, the water level should be 1/2 way between the upper and lower sight glass fittings.
Are there vents on the mains? If so, what kind? Steam forever!
@@nosaya3 Steam rules!
This is one of the very very few cases where we didn't put on main vents.
It would have required fairly extensive removal of drywall & some framing to expose the end of main piping, which would need reworking to be able to add a vent...
And all for two radiators.
The Perfect is the enemy of The Good.
What about a water feeder that functions but no flow of water going in?
Do i have to replace feeder?
Dunkirk seems to be decent boilers. Often sold rebranded with other names. Even HB Smith years ago sold some Dunkirks with their (Smith) name on it. Don't care for side takeoffs but since it is oversized that helps.
Side take-offs are not my favorite, agreed.
The oversizing does appear to help dry out the steam much better than a 2" outlet.
Seems like Dunkirk sold themselves to anyone: Sears, Montgomery Wards, etc etc.
Well you seem to be very knowledgeable, are you anywhere near south central pa? Had a new boiler installed 4years ago. And probably 20 service calls later it still don't work correctly. Parallel system, i dont think the equalizer is working as its supposed to, possibly wrong piping setup per the manufacturer's instructions. It appears to be piped as a counter flow. All i know is we had a boiler for 70yrs worked quietly and near replacement parts free. The system worked fine up until the day we replaced with a WM unit. Unfortunately the expert we had likely retired 20yrs ago. And he said he helped my grandfather in 1951 instal the old unit.
@@shanestamball1886 Thank you for the kind words.
I am sorry you are having issues with your relatively new boiler.
Our company serves mainly Central Maryland/Baltimore.
You might try posting pictures of your boiler install and your story on Heatinghelp.com.
Lower your pressure control
@Clamjammer it is set as low as it will go, i just watched WeilMcClains training video for their Authorized installers.
Its disgusting, everything that should have been done Wasn't. and everything that shouldn't have been done was done. Installer was here today and removed 1"" of sludge from the skimming pipe.
Someone thought it was ok to to put 4"s of riser into 2" of header. Piping is still wrong size and pressure's still isnt right. This has turned into a $10K nightmare
@@gordonschweizer5154 curious if there is any difference between a vapor system then adding a modern boiler? I know the old system was always said to have been vapor. And it was noiseless and everything heated uniformly, unlike now.
Vapor (AKA two-pipe steam) usually means the original system was designed to operate at very low pressures, usually oz/in2 or even in a vacuum.
Your old boiler also likely had a large "steam chest" where the steam (or "vapor") could separate cleanly from the water and leave it behind in the boiler and be "dry" as it entered the mains and hence into the radiators.
Modern boilers are much smaller, and therefore proper "near boiler piping" is a must in drying out the steam once it leaves the boiler.
It sounds as if the installer did not understand this, and your near boiler piping is going to need to be redone properly.
Under 200 feet of steam and a counter flow main and a copper main.
Was the copper main 1.5”?
I guess if you have enough pitch on the pipe it’s able to work without hammering. I don’t recall seeing the book on steam heat I only have lost art of steam heat.
Yes, that is a 1.5 copper counterflow main.
By the book, it shouldn't have worked.
It hammered due to a water pocket and really bad near boiler piping, but the radiators at that end did get hot... eventually.
The wet return helps divert some of the water from those two radiators at the end.
There is no more water pocket.
And the "start-up" condensate from that main is diverted back to the boiler via the wet return rather than splosh back against the steam into the header.
That "The Golden Rules of Hydronic Heating" by D. Holohan is a useful pamphlet indeed for heating steamfitters.
Where are you located..what areas do you cover
We cover mostly central Maryland/Baltimore.
196 sq ft?
Yes, indeed.
And even that's a bit too large, if you can believe it.
This unit actually starts cycling on pressure when run long enough (even with all that bare pipe).
It's actually Utica made by Utica New York
Being from England i cant help but feel this is a very inefficient way of heating a house. All that volume of water you are heating to me seems very wasteful. We use small compact wall hung low water content condensing boilers. Very often you will see 6 , 8 , or 10mm pipe to radiators - about the size of a pencil ! We only use steam in hospitals , factories etc.
Thank you for your comments.
I have a question or two for you: about how long are your wall hung condensing boilers designed to last?
Very little electrical use with steam boilers. Less efficient yes but smaller carbon footprint that repiping the whole house and importing all the heat emitters and boiler from around the world
@gordonschweizer51 I use a smooth jaw knipex plier wrench in the past I have used a basin wrench and an adjustable wrench on the handle.