The Tricky Term “Queerbaiting” - Use It, Don’t Abuse It
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Is the term “queerbaiting” getting overused to the point of losing its meaning? Calling out this practice is an important tool in trading the shallow act of subtly suggesting queer romance for better LGBTQ+ representation. However, throwing around the word “queerbaiting” too liberally can erode its power and veer into harmful gatekeeping -- making individuals feel they can’t explore their personal sexuality in a fluid, open-ended or playful way without getting policed. So how do we find the perfect medium?
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In terms of real life people being accused of “queerbaiting” (like the discourse on Billie) I’m like, so y’all know outing people is bad and yet you’re pressing people to prove their queerness and rush to come out?? 😬
Sorry last time I checked "coming out of the closet" meant not "imma make shit tons of money with promoting a gay image because it's easy"
Agreed (at least on some level). It’s interesting though because on the flip side, there are (admittedly rare cases) where celebrities and influencers pander to their gay fanbases but then turn around, exploit, and disrespect them. For example Nicki Minaj, who proudly called herself a gay rapper once, works with extremely problematic and homophobic people, weaponizes her fanbase, and attacks queer creators online.
Like the video says, it’s tricky. These celebrities don’t owe their fans anything regarding their own sexualities. However if you’re going to want support from queer folk, at least be a decent ally and be aware of what you’re doing.
For me, a product (like a music video), I think can be queerbaiting versus a celebrity just being ambiguous about their love life in interviews ect. That is clearly a private issue. I'm mostly referring to really sexual stuff like Rihanna and Shakira "Remember to Forget You". Less so Billie.
@@emfgull I feel you on this. I remember when I saw the video for the first time. When they touched each other my face went😲.
@@twiggledowntown3564 SAME
In defense of The Good Place, they acknowledged that Eleanor is bisexual and while they were willing to explore the idea but they didn't have enough screen time.
Yes, also her ending up with Chidi wasn't sth to cover up her attraction to women, it was an organic conclusion. Could they have had explored more her relationship with Tahani? Absolutely. Do they make it abundantly cear that Eleanor is bisexual? Absolutely.
HOLY HOLY!!! I can proudly say that I have the two HOTTEST women on this planet as MY GIRLFRIENDS! I am the unprettiest UA-camr ever, but they love me for what's inside! Thanks for listening po
yeah, i always thought it was so clear she was bisexual, even if we don’t get a coming out scene and she just dates a man, it doesn’t change her sexuality
@@AxxLAfriku weed smoking girlfriends post real???
Yeah, Eleanor is cannonically bi. A cannonically bi person ending up with someone of a different sex isn't queerbaiting
I don’t understand why Harry Styles has to either be gay or dress “straight”…???? Like… this kind of binary thinking around gender and sexuality is exactly what I thought we were trying to avoid
Exactly... the whole point is to bend gender rules
He’s a straight white man profiting from lgbtq so yeah he deserves to be called out
@@sana-xe5cs everyone benefits from the lgbtq community dont know abot what u saying
Exactly. I just think it’s very hypocritical.
@@sana-xe5cs Oh shut up, he's profiting from all communities.
The Good Place isn't queerbaiting, Eleanor is cannonically bi. A bi woman ending up with a man but also showing attraction to women ain't queerbaiting, and a bi woman ending up with a man doesn't make them any less queer.
Too many times I ask myself if by being with a man makes me less bi, I never felt like I was fiting, but guess you answered my question in a way
Exactly, those kind of acussations feel biphobic if you ask me
Exactly, I just about to comment this. Elanor is bi and had genuine interest in female characters, she just ended up with a guy.
this
I didn't realize she was canonically bi. I was going to comment (and I still stand by my following comment generally). Hetero people can find somebody of the same gender attractive and talk about it.
It's natural for a woman to look at another woman and think damn she's hot (or beautiful, or stunning, etc). Same for hetero men. It's normal, it happens with everyone, and I think it's healthy to acknowledge those thoughts instead of feeling shame about them or people assuming that you're queerbaiting.
I don't understand why people think Ariana is queerbaiting. The line "I like women and men" is written by and sung by Victoria Monét who is openly bi
Because even in the LGBT+ community, bisexuals are treated as "different".
I guess discrimination runs deep in our nature :/. Even those who have been hurt by it discriminate.
It's not just that, she has queerbaited many more times. Stan her talent but she's the epitome of queerbaiting
@@rainbowsubs2 can you tell me the instances she has queerbaited ? I'm new to her music and dunno much about her
@@vanessadoofenshmirtz7011 another example is her music video break up with your gf I am bored
I never thought Hannibal was queerbaiting. It was just queer, it was not really trying to hide it. Maybe at first, but as the series progressed, the subtext became text. The reason that Hannibal and Will never kissed, was not because the writers did not want to go through with the queer aspects of their relationship. It was because for Hannibal and Will, the CHARACTERS, it made sense that their relationship will end bloody and tragic. Their love for each other had nothing to do with the other being sexually attractive. It was "attraction of the minds" at its purest.
And i don't think Hannibal/NBC got much in the way of prospective viewer capital from the queerness on the show.
and that love comes mostly from showing a complex and troubled relationship and definitely not being queerbaiting
Not to mention that Hannibal had another in-universe example of a HEALTHY, normalized queer couple involving major characters to supplement the Hannibal/Will relationship
@@endel12 Great point
My spouse and I were breathless during that final scene between the two of them. Of course they would "consummate" their love with blood and death.
The Good Place definitely wasn't queerbaiting. It wasn't a jokey 'ha-ha I'm so jealous that you're so beautiful you would turn me on if I was gay' thing. Eleanor was openly bisexual and she 100% meant it that she finds Tahani attractive. The fact that she ended up in a relationship with a man does not make her less bi when her orientation was quite explicit in the show.
@kshamwhizzle Yeah, I think the show was spot on in the amount of relationship drama that was necessary to keep things entertaining, but not too much to dilute the message.
@@UmbraKrameri yes quite the opposite of what friends did
Also what about when we as queer people talk about how writers write the queerness of a character as their entire personality
Eleanor's queerness was so casual and just welcome
Edit and also Eleanor hyped tahani up as a girlfriend and ALSO found her attractive
@@bighead4564 Yes! Casual queerness would be a great achievement for representation. It is very much needed beside the stories that focus on the queer issues. Also, another great aspect is that Tahani finds fulfillment without having a romantic partner in the end! This show was so great on so many levels.
Plus there was another scene where Eleanor helps Chidi practice breaking up with his girlfriend in some kind of stimulator. At one point, she goes as herself to show what would happen if she tried to break up with Chidi's girlfriend for him, and she and the girlfriend start holding hands and almost kiss until Chidi gets her out of the stimulation. It's very obvious that she's a confirmed bisexual and that the writers meant for her to be that way.
I find it even more disrespectful when people call actual bi people "queerbaiters" like Cardi B who has been out as bi for a long time. Much of the argument about queerbaiting is rooted in biphobia.
I think the problem with "queerbaiting" in movies and shows is that friendships can't be close without people implying there is more. But if we had more queer representation perhaps people wouldn't ship people who are genuinely meant to be friends.
I agree 100%. I think that's the reason why w/w and m/m shippers are much more passionate and even extreme with their views than m/w shippers is because w/w and m/m couples in cinema and tv get very little decent representation in general. Although I find many shippers to be extremely annoying, I don't blame them for grasping at as many bits of "evidence" as possible to "prove" that these clearly straight friends are gay.
I think that's also why we as a society accept fictional stories of gay couples who are toxic or badly written. When writers write gay people, the bar is set so low, because they know that no matter how terrible the couples are written, fans will take any sort of representation they can get and praise the writers for being progressive. We straight people have tons of representation. Sure, we have stories of badly written couples who are toxic or simply have bad chemistry, however we don't let writers get away with it as easily and they get plenty of well justified criticism. With gay couples in fiction? The writers make no effort, and they get away with it.
Anyways, basically, I agree with you.
I agree with both points
Cardi B is Bi when did she came out I miss this yes a lot Biphobia / Bi Erasure within our LGBTQ+ Community that’s reason why end two friends and tell them .🖕 I’m glad people open their eyes in our community there’s Biphobic people I been discriminated against being attractions not one gender.Gays/ Lesbian saying Bisexuality doesn’t exist why is called LGBTQ+ Community News flash ! B stands Bisexual not Biphobia .
I’m bisexual and I don’t agree. If Cardi is bisexual then why does she never talk about women? It’s a little sus.
@@Xplreli She has been open about it I seen a video on she opened her attracted to women is on UA-cam.
I feel like a lot of people here don’t actually get the difference between queer baiting and shipping.
Also, I don’t think Hannibal is queer baiting, Bryan Fuller probably isn’t one to queer bait. I don’t really want to say too much, but he did confirm Hannibal as pan and a certain relationship isn’t straight (again don’t know if it’s a spoiler, and I don’t want to spoil).
Edit: Also Fuller really does ship Hannibal and Will as much as the fans. I like knowing he doesn’t make fun of his fans at their expense :P
Agreed. Will and Han is def not baiting. But it's also certainly not a conventional queer relationship by any means. So it's a bit of an... off colour example.
@@dipperdandy yeah definitely. I would be more inclined to ship them if Hannibal didn’t mentally and physically harm Will ._.
But also, the relationship I was talking about was (spoiler) Alana and Margot’s. I mean, as far as I have seen, neither has been killed off and it wasn’t like it was queer baited.
@@dipperdandy oh yeah definitely. I would be more inclined to ship them if Hannibal didn’t emotionally and physically harm Will ._.
Also, the relationship I was talking about was Alana and Margot’s. I haven’t seen all of the series yet, but as far as I know they’re both alive and the relationship didn’t have any sort of baiting.
@@HiBuddyyyyyy oh yeaaah I forgot all about that one. Boy, time for a rewatch!
I feel like Sherlock fits here. Both are shown to date women early on, and the creators even had an ongoing bit of John saying he wasn’t gay the MOMENT it was suggested in the show. That ones on the shippers, imho.
Edit: also, the joke about Sherlock and moriarty was about the numerous gay fanfics and shippers. It was a joke about the audience, not about their sexuality.
People saying Harry Styles queerbaits because he doesn't dress "like a man" is such bullshit. You're supposed to support blurred lines when it comes to gender expression yet you jump at other people's throats when they do it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Leaving aside the highly toxic mindset that people need to come out so that they can justify what they are doing and going back to Harry, even if he's a cisgender straight man, why do you care if he dresses in a skirt, silk see through shirts or dresses? I thought fashion was for everyone, but now we're gatekeeping clothes as proof of queerness?
Kind of irrelevant but this reminds me of those idiots that say that cis people, bi people in a het relationship and ace people shouldn't be at pride because "they don't get it". Shit man, do you even hear yourself? Like, congrats, you have unlocked the *woke homophobia* achievement
Exactly. The dude is just into fashion. And of course he supports freedom and fluidity of expression, but he also just explores his fashion interest.
I love your comment.💚💙
Yes and yes and yes and yes, all true.
Thank you! Could not have said it better.
Projecting onto others can be extremely harmful.
I think its very important to discuss queerbating when it comes to media and demand better repressentation. But I absolutely hate when people call out real people for "queerbating". A person wearing certain clothing, saying they love a certain gender or singing about queer topics while not being out as gay themselves is not queerbating! And calling celebrities out when they are doing these things is such gatekeeping. These are real people not characters and whatever you might believe to the contrary, you do not know them and you are not entitled to know everything about them. They might be queer, they might not, but that also shouldn't dictate how they express themselves as humans and artists.
Personally, i don't think one individual can queerbait. How do we know they're not questioning their sexuality? It's a problem is when the media uses it as a cop out to NOT give LGBTQ representation
How do we also know they are not trying to cash out from the community?
I think there are people who are queerbaiting, but there is no way to truely know and way more hamr in disbelive then just accepting them either way.
@@jeffersonhassan4558 so what, who are you to judge anothers queerness? How would you feel if people said no you are not allowed to act like you feel for it does not suit other peoples perception of what it mean to be as hwat you identify? Even if there is a level of preformativness in it, it still is representation, it still erodes the harsh lines of heteronormaty and what one is allowed to do and to express themselfs! Anothers sexuality is not your buisness, just enjoy your freedom and let them enjoy theirs that way you will both be freeer and happyer then trying to police eachother!
Sherlock is my Game of Thrones. Loved that show but the last season sucked so much that I lost all interest. In hindsight, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth how hostile the creators were towards (often young) fans. Not cool - even if a lot of fans took it too far by harassing Mary's actress. It was a nasty situation all around that tainted a once great show.
Yes yes yes... I feel the same and it is so sad, it really broke my heart 💔
Seems like your still interested.
@@ianvera4299 I wouldn't say I'm still interested in the show. I feel no need to rewatch it - even stuff I liked - and I'm not hoping for new seasons nor engaging in its fandom. I guess it's still interesting as a cultural phenomenon that went out with a whimper.
@@Sandra-rc5uc Disagree, I feel like it went out with an uproar if the comments are any indication. I feel like even mentioning still provokes interest.
I thought the last season was good but different. But the fandom is toxic and I’m glad that the creators called it out.
I don't think Hannibal was queerbaiting . Hannibal was in love with Will.
True. Seriously, the show ended with a song, *LOVE-CRIME* as Will took both of them down the cliff, because he can't see Hannibal prisoned once again and himself trapped in a marriage he doesn't want, just to not become what he thinks is a predisposed in him.
Hannigram!
The writers did say they were in love!
@@matxalenc8410 changing stories from their source material to make them gay is pandering to a demographic.
@@matxalenc8410 yep! And who knows what could've happened if the show had continued past where it had ended
@@madcircle0461 or Bryan Fuller wanted to make it more interesting and put his own spin on it. I liked that he gender flipped the some characters so it was more diverse. It wasn’t pandering to anyone. Except I guess himself because he wanted to do it. Also Margot was a lesbian in the books from what I understand, right?
I’m pretty sure the tv series is not canon in the book series, so stick to the books if you don’t like it that much.
When you see a show or movie where a same sex pair have the chemistry that you know would be called a romance if it were a man and woman. When it gets extra with depictions people shouldn’t feel wrong about recognizing it.
Please know that SPN is trying to walk back Castiel’s cannon homosexual declaration of love to make it "straight" or "heavenly". If you are passionate about representation I highly recommend watching Bob Wess' video about what happened at the last convention.
I ended up watching that episode (where Castiel confesses his love) by accident on tv a few weeks ago having not been a fan of the show except seeing it as a kid, and when it got to the scene where Castiel confessed, the whole atmosphere changed and I was like "is he gonna confess his love to him now or something" as a joke, but then he did and I was like 😲. Not in a bad way. lol It was a really nice confession scene, I thought. idk whether it was intentional or not, but the actor who play played Castiel reallllly had me convinced that he was in love with Dean. I mean it felt so... sincere. I'm not a fan of the show, so forgive me for being ignorant of stuff. Just thought it might be interesting to hear the perspective of someone who's not really a fan of the show, and only saw a few episodes yearssssss before all of this.
@@harperbird1034 This is really good to hear actually! Thank you so much for sharing! ❤
This term is not used in situations where it should nearly as much. Instead it is overused in other situations where the term doesn’t really apply. 🏳️🌈💖
All the Marvel fans that got upset when Anthony Mackie said Bucky and Sam were not a couple 🤦🏽♀️
you should watch are they gay’s video about it, which makes it pretty clear how the writers mislead queer audiences
@@andreaf8404 also james somerton's videos
@@cravenlunatic1 YES!!!!
Eleanor's comments in the Good Place wasn't queerbaiting. She is canonically bi and was even Tahani's soulmate in one or more of the reboots. It's just that's the main relationship the writers wanted to pursue was Chidi and Eleanor and the plot of the show itself had so much to say that after the end of the first reboot we only see the last one fully played out. I feel like saying Eleanor's behaviour is queerbaiting is bi erasure :/
*I'm truly sick and tired of same sex relationships having to either be gay or queer baiting. I'm queer (bi, pan, I don't give a sh¡t, I am open) but I love my friends too & I'd kill to have some of these close relationships that people like to cry 'queer-bait'. Yes, I do believe that more representation should be made but people need to stop with the excessive mis-labeling.*
totaly get you, aro ace with intense platonic crushes, I live for the portrail of close and affectionate platonic relationships! My best friends are somewhat sexualy attracted to eachother and ones partner is just super chill. If we go out togeather there is no way of telling who is togeather with who or what kind of attracted, it is glorious and genuinly nobodies buisness but ours. Humans are social creatures, we need affection and touch to be genuinly happy, not just from one person we also sleep with . . .
Honestly the biggest apeal in critical role is just how cozy and close those friends are, two have the joke of being work husbands, they all are all over eachother with no need to make it all about the real life couples, the husbands cheers his wifes fictional romance on, the other flirts a lot in character with one of th eother guys. . . . they are just so comfortable with eachother . . . the extreamly fun roleplaying is just an extra ^^
. . . . and then there are comments calling one wife a slut for cuddeling with her and her husbands best friend, he also cuddles with if given the opportunity. Or tons or comments about pitying the other husband for another guy nad his wife play twins and get very cozy while doing so, claiming it scheating and he has to be so jealouse but honestly . . . If you are jealous of your spouse having friends and familiar affection for someone else. . . . you got a serious problem and the husband clearly does not share it.
I am all for openly trans, enby, gay and bi people, but there are more nuances out there and demending explicit scenes where they just do not fit for some twisted validation and demonising friendcrushes is not the way to go. How romance gets written in generell has to improve, there are maybe 4 couples I aprove of as healthy, belivable an delightful romances I can recall easely . . . .it is not just a queer rep problem
didnt think the take would actually cover supernatural but here we are. thank you for actually discussing how queerbaiting is inherently harmful in that it satisfies homophobic viewers when it comes to fictional stories (which should NOT be something so normalized but that says a lot about how the industry works in a post-hays code era). destiel was the punchline to virtually every joke about this for over a decade and as fans we were made to feel like we were the crazy ones for seeing something so clear to us - and something that held actual textual proof! it didn't help that a couple writers and other members of the show actually ARE queer and fought very hard for that confession scene to get green-lit, despite it ending the way it did, and after all that, we are STILL being instructed not to discuss it with the cast at conventions (the show's been over for nearly a year now). a lead actor that wasn't involved in the confession scene recently went off on a long, homophobic rant about it, which says a lot about the environment people part of the show had to endure that wanted it to happen. castiel's identity is "still up to interpretation" and the scene being a literal homosexual declaration of love is still being treated like something that should not be talked about, like it was something explicit, dirty or inappropriate. it's so important to call this out and hope that at some point enough people are going to be fed up and actually enact change. thank you so much for covering this, ladies!
Now can you make a video about creators seeing the audience reading a character as queer and make it cannon? Like Valencia in Crazy ex-girlfriend and Petra in Jane the virgin. Please!
There are a few break throughs in children's cartoons like "Steven Univers"," She-Ra", "Owl House"(who got canceled) . If anything children's cartoons are more inclusive than most adult shows
I'd love to see you do a video on why live action kids shows aren't as popular as they used to be after the golden age of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon
Its because they're all on Tik-tok & UA-cam now & so are their viewers.
@@AveGoddess
Still, there are live action kids shows, especially on streaming services that don't get the type of attention they should
Edit: the live action kids show industry seems to be settling for mediocrity (excuse me if I'm paraphrasing Friendly Space Ninja) and hasn't tried to compete with social media with creative but well executed storylines, even when those shows are on streaming services. The most popular live action kids show from a streaming service in recent memory was A Series of Unfortunate Events.
@@AveGoddess What are? The shows are on TikTok and UA-cam?
@@mynameisreallycool1 All The Kids are on phones, UA-cam, Tik-Tok, etc. ...I mean its obvious, thats all my sister's kids watch now, when they used to watch all the Disney shows. Now they are constantly on VR Games🎮 & viewing UA-cam & Instagram. ...do you even KNOW Any Kids in modern times??? Catch Up!
I don't think HS is queerbating. He likes to dress feminine and play with clothing. He isn't kissing guys on screen like the other examples
It isn't QUEER-BAITING but like in song, "watermelon sugar" he talks about sleeping with women bht in his song, "Medicine" he talks gow he's okay with kissing men ....(boys and girls are here, I mess around with him and um okay with it.) Also Louis Tomlinson and Harry Styles kind of write for each other a bit too, which can be taken as QUEER-BAITING (not to mention all *H.S. tattoos are half and the other half of them are on Louis Tomlinson in the same exact position like the ship-compass, key-lock, heart-dagger etc.)*
@@Bumble-bee_ but that sound more like they are discovering themselves and stuff but people keeo looking toi deep into it. At the end of the day they dont owe anyone an explanation about their tatoos or who they write songs about. Honestly some fandoms are just very entitled...
@@BetzyArosemena I never said that, I understand your point but I just said that during their time in 1D , they genuinely seemed to hint at it. Harry going as far as to say to a fan, "That yeah I'm dating him." And also how he always says, *Lou* instead of *You* in most love songs. But over the years, it's become more fiction and that's ok because it's their personal life and noone should harass them. But as fans, we will always try to find clues.
The whole song, *Adore you* is based on the book, "Louis-the fish" and harry named the fish in the song, "William" (which is louis middle name) or singing on radio to his own song to eating tacos with the fish, which he said numerous time that was the first dish ge made for louis Tomlinson because he hates most food, also how in the song it's all blue (... *Your eyes make me wanna cry, would u believe it?* color of Louis eyes) and how they've to let each other go to find themselves.
Or the infamous line of "Habit" in response to the line of song "Falling", *We were two hearts in one home.* And the song setting us the bedroom tiles of Harry and Louis's SHARED BEDROOM...(Harry and Louis used to live together during 1D even though all boys had their own apartments) and Louis wrote, *I'll always need you infront of me, look we've come so far from princess park.* And that's the name of apartment they used to live in.
I-
It's always hinted but with Louis, a father and Harry in a committed relationship, I personally don't go on to hate their spouses but it's weird that the most songs in album, Harry's *Fine line* or Louis's *Walls* seemed about each other. So, as fans should maintain dignity but that doesn't mean that H.S. and L.T. aren't playing maybe just a character of what they were like when they were dating.
@@Bumble-bee_ You are way, way down a conspiracy rabbit hole, searching for clues and refusing to acknowledge what’s right under your nose, Louis Tomlinson has had the same girlfriend for almost a decade and publicly said he’s straight, respect that! 1D went on hiatus 6yrs ago and since then there has been no public interaction between Harry and Louis - let it go!
@@Bumble-bee_ you sound like a flat earth conspiracy theorist 💀
I both wanted Rizzoli and Isles to be a couple but also long for the main duo in a show to just be friends. I wasn't touched by the promotional material because I didn't have access to a TV or internet for almost a decade because poverty, then I binged it at the recommendation of my mom.
Unrelated to the video topic, I will forgive Rizzoli and Isles a lot for 3 reasons. A girly (way more than Bones) autistic woman into gross things, and how they handled the tragic suicide of one of the main cast, Lee Thompson, and just centering around 2 women in male dominated fields.
While Bones had more ladies dominating in their fields, it always feels like they all defer to Booth, the lead male character. So to see a show where everyone and everything revolves around two women, that could have a great friendship that I personally saw as Isles would go there but respects Rizzoli and is legit happy with their friendship as it is, flirty moments and all.
At the same time, I sometimes like to think that Rizzoli can finally open up romantically to Isles in Paris, where she's away from the oppressive homophobia in the US and the stigmatized stereotype of being a lesbian in law enforcement.
Again, I have the luxury of not seeing interviews or promotional material
Try being an aro ace. Not only do I get romantic plotlines shoved down my throat, but the tiny handful of explicitly ace characters are portrayed as freaks or weirdos. And in queer spaces, asexuality is either dismissed as a "fake meme sexuality" because of how kids on Tumblr portray it, or told I have no right to identify as queer at all because, as ace-exclusives have informed me, I will never be beaten up for _not_ holding someone's hand when I walk down the street.
One thing I'll say about this, is that it's helpful to see it being talked about (nuances, disagreements and all) because the amount of times I watch something and wonder if I'm seeing something that's not there can make one feel like they'retaking crazy pills. This video alone is so validating cause there are a number of "would be couples" I've personally noted over the years. Hopefully things get better, in the meantime, thank God for fanfiction
I clicked on this video, slightly curious to see if you had included NBC Hannibal among this list and was mildly surprised when you had. Most people like to dub this show as queerbait but it is not queerbaiting in the least. Hannibal is a love story. The relationship between Hannibal and Will is explicitly canonized in season 3 and the producer of the show along with the actors have confirmed/shown support for it. The only reason they never got to explore the depth of Will and Hannibal’s relationship is because of the censorship that went on back then.
As far as the Cas/Dean situation I really didn't feel like there was a ton of queer subtext but I believe it's because of how many times I've been burned by queerbaiting. When Cas said "I love you" and DIED....I was fucking furious...way to bury your gays. And even so I am of the opinion that more straight, cis men should say I love you more in popular media. I love how much Sam and Dean said I love you to each other and other men they considered family. It was beautiful & I want more positive masculinity in media
I think the Cas/Dean situation was happening both in the fandom and in between the members of the show. As Misha has expressed before his desire for that plot to continue. On the other hand jensen Ackles, had said that he always thought they were friends.
Also we have to consider, that the show continued for so long due to fan support. So since season 2 they were making the script as they went. To add a queer plot was not outside of possibility.
Their refusal to clarify and definitely answer the question, can be blamed on creative discrepancies. They went with the route that could appease both the audiences and the direction.
I personally think it was a weak ending. But i had seen the characters die and resurrect so many times, that i didn't really care that much. The value of that couple, lives in the content created by the fans, more than the one that we got.
This straight guy remembers watching the first season with Castiel and thinking: Well, Castiel really likes Dean. I personally (since we see that Castiel’s host has a wife and child he deeply loves) always thought that that meant that Cas loved who he was more so than what he was. I mean, not entirely sure an angel or any being that is so far beyond us we can’t really relate can have a gender anyways.
However, Castiel was clearly in love with Dean for most of the show, and I’m fairly certain, based on Dean’s character he knew and would have been interested, as Dean clearly comes off as bisexual. I mean, he routinely isn’t afraid to tell anyone he finds attractive that he finds them attractive and downright flirting with them.
@@ryanedwards7487 ok that's fair
I love Dean for many reasons but being a bi icon is definitely one of them. I'm rewatching SN with my mom and I'm excited to see if I pick up on the Cas/Dean vibe more the next time around. Like I said I've been burned by queerbaiting in the past which (I believe) makes me blind to some subtext...like a coping mechanism so my heart won't be broken again
@@mariapaz6379 true true All of your points linger in the back of my mind when it comes to discussing the awesomeness that is Supernatural
Right like they did Dean and Cas so dirty like we didn’t even get to see them reunite in the finale 🤦🏼♀️
In Billies situation, i don’t see how that’s queerbaiting, I know tons of people Who act just like this including myself with their friends without it actually being romantic in anyway. People were downright demand her to state her sexuality, and then assumed she’s straight From her last talking about her sexuality around 4 years ago. real people don’t owe the public shit about their sexuality
Yes they do owe us. They are celebrities who have a lot of influence over a lot of people. They have that responsibility.
Maybe media is just rarely great at portraying normal, healthy human relationships full stop. Because our culture has some effed up ideas about them.
I still disagree with Luca being seen as queerbaiting. You can relate the story to being gay & coming out the closet but that doesn't mean they're queerbaiting. The same way people understand how mutants' storyline in X-men 2 is similar to being gay, why can't people understand the same for Luca.
Thing is, why are they so keen on writing a coming out story if they refuse to have queer characters?
@@mimimurlough it's not coming out story it's just similiar
@@lavenderbambi3501 very similar.
@@mimimurlough yuh
I don't see Luca as queerbaiting. The thought that they could be something other than friends didn't even come to my mind.
I just finnished watching a destiel queerbating video and this appears on my feed XD
The conclusion to 2021 convention didn't help in beating the allegations 🙂🙂🙂
The one by Sara Z?
@@tannie7092 what convention and what conclusion?👀
😂😂🙈
As a straight old millennial who grew up in a conservative household, I am very thankful for videos like this to educate me. I had no idea that queerbaiting and queer coding were the opposite sides of the same coin. I had no idea about any of this.
They have shit takes as well like the insanely misogynistic female gaze take or the himpo one
While the Britney x Madonna kiss was done for shock value, Britney was my favorite singer in the world at the time, and that happened less than a month after I came out. So, to me, it was an incredibly big deal.
One of the problems I have with the queer baiting accusations is that it is often steered at close friendships showed on television and in media, as if insinuating that if two people are abnormally close it must be romantic. I don't like this insinuation because in my personal experience, my closest friendships have often been more emotionally intimate than my romantic relationships, and whenever intimate friendships pop up on screen everyone assumes they must be secret lovers because many people see romantic love as the ultimate type of love (something I don't personally agree with). I do still understand though why people get angry at queer baiting, the LGBTQ+ community is so underrepresented in media that people just want more, and they deserve that.
While I agree with your statement I must point out that in similar situations where the couple is straight and just friends, the cast/producers/etc dont usually laugh or ridicule fans for thinking there might be more. They either stay vague (for the will they wont they lure) or say that its not a plan 'for now'. That to me is the biggest issue. When its fans of queer couples the thought is dismissed in often cruel ways, or played up in a mocking fashion. Not cool
@@pingidjit or if they stay vague they get accused of queerbaiting. It's a catch 22. The only solution is time, time for society to get less conservative, time for more shows with LGBTQ couples to be produced. And with that time there would be space for shows to have good, powerful friendships without having to deal with accusations of queerbaiting.
Agreed. How sad is it too that male friendships are so rare on screen that we immediately assume they must be gay because they show emotion
Why did Once Upon A Time not get even a mention here?
Their explicit queer baiting for years and cast directly attacking fans who supported the queer couples is not suddenly made up for because they gave fans shitty representation FINALLY in its last season. OUAT was toxic to the queer community and the fact that producers and cast openly participated in it, and then were defended by other cast who weren't the least bit paying attention caused real life harm to its fan base.
Disney is much more toxic than Luca or Frozen.
You guys could do a whole freaking episode on OUAT and still not cover all the bs that went on. Even Yvette Nicole Brown got her nastiness involved in it all and she was just a voice for one episode. Her twitter rants were horrific, as well as Adam (producer), Michael Coleman (Cast-Happy...ironic since he was one of the worst on twitter), Sean Macguire (Cast-Robinhood, encouraged fans to kill themselves if they couldnt 'get a life'), and Ginnifer Goodwin (Cast-Snow White, who played a much lesser role on twitter but no less harmful messages).
If you are referring to Emma and Regina, I never saw it. They both had a romantic partner they were into. Sure, they were co-parenting and they became good friends, but it never saw anything sexual between them
@@AnzuBrief Not just them, but yes they were the main bait. If you watch again, before they are attached to any men (aside from Graham whom neither had feelings for), you see looks and phrases said between them that were purposefully chosen. Again, shows like these do numerous takes. So why keep the edit that even hints at more if it's not the story your telling? The edit viewers saw was the edit they chose. Meaning they wanted queer fans to notice those things.
And again they were just the main pair, but not the only one.
The Good Place wasn't queerbaiting, it was casual queerness where Eleanor is obviously bisexual, it wasn't the queerness itself that was used as something comedic, but it was the way it broke the tension or something, but otherwise it was not negative in the least.
Next, I prefer subtext over outright "i love you" in shipping. I enjoy overt relationships in fiction, but I never truly ship two characters unless there is a lot of dramatic and romantic tension.
Also, being frustrated by a piece of media because your ship isn't canon doesn't mean you're getting queerbaited... it is very possible too that the ship is canon thanks to subtext. If the creator never denies the queerness (or outright ADMITS there IS queerness, like Fuller lmao), then it isn't queerbaiting.
I'm straight and I've just always had a problem with characters being played with like this. I think it's unfair to the people who can be in same-sex couples to lie to them. Also, growing up, it would make me scared when a friendship was jokingly shown in a romantic light (I was scared of what it could mean and homophobia was stronger then.), while if I saw an actual same-sex couple I felt worried about what everyone said about them, but it was more of a relief, like when I saw Uranus and Neptune were really a couple in Sailor Moon. However, I feel like women get happier representation, because I have never rooted for Dumbledore's story. You don't just get sympathy after having hid the fact you were going to join Wizard-Hitler because the character is gay. I feel like women have to be nice more, while men have this excuse of being affected by homophobia and lack of love.
Also, a show that legally cannot show queer couples (largely because of censorship) and is toeing the line super super hard without making anything explicit because if they do the show will be taken off air and/or blacklisted, is not queerbaiting. There's a difference between "they can be queer but we're not making them queer but we are going to keep teasing it and gaslight you when you get mad about it" vs "if we make them queer the Ministry of State Security will come for us so let's just keep it subtextual".
That's fair I mean it still shows a problem in society but no one should come after the creators for it
@@caspermcgoangle975 Yup, the people you should take it up to in that situation is the shitty government and its policies, and not the creators.
Queerbaiting used to mean something before fandom used it for complaining about their gay ship not being made canon despite not having actual bassis, i won't say name AHSHEVOLTRONSHEAJGES
I mean, if every word lost its meaning because of how some people used it, I'm pretty sure all language would be dead by now.
I really hated the way the show supernatural queerbaited castiel and dean while knowing that they would never allow them to be a couple they definitely deserved better🌈
I love your content!! Great video like always! This was perfection. May you do a take on POC-baiting (sorry if that’s not what is called but it is very similar to queerbaiting but with people of color). Many movies try to caterer to people of color by putting in a POC into the movie & pretending in the trailer that the character will have an important role but they do nothing with the character. Ex: Finn from StarWars (who turned out not to be the Jedi and was moved aside for another white Jedi) and black Panther in infinity wars (who only had 8 mins of screen time but was in most of the trailer).
I believe the term is "race-baiting". Good idea by the way.
@@mynameisreallycool1 to be fair Disney SW became a shit show, they had no idea where they were taking those movies, not linear plan for the trilogy. I ship Finn with Rey as they clearly had a connection, but it was replaced by what's-him-named in the next movie. Let's main our Mary Sue girl fall in love with a kin-slayer.
I'm torn because I want to see more deep, loving relationships that are platonic, and I don't like that depicting someone to be your soulmate or intensely meaningful to you has to be coded as romantic, but I also understand the need for more queer stories. idk before we even things out maybe we should stop with the cishet love stories bc they've clearly had their day in the sun
I think it really depends if you’re pushing for profit, or just “discovering yourself” by making millions of dollars off of an audience you’re trying to lure in imo 👀
Also Hannibal and The Good Place made their queer characters explicitly queer so idk, it feels wrong to lump those in here 🤷🏾♀️
They should mention merlin. The tension between merlin and Arthur was explosive throughout the entire series and relationship actually well written.
It seems like a lot of fans get upset when they ship same sex characters who are close friends and it doesn't happen in the show or movie.
Falcon and the Winter Soldier were shipped so hard and the show is about their friendship helping them to move on from losing their other friend, Captain America, and finding their place in the world without him - no romance on this show.
Sherlock seems to me to be asexual (he demonstrated zero interest in anyone of any gender) and John married a woman and had a child with her, again fans still shipped them.
Superwoman has an explicitly gay character with genuine depictions of gay relationships throughout the show so why is superwoman's friendship with a woman queerbating.
I love and enjoy LGBTQ+ relationships in media, but I also like the depiction of close relationships without anything sexual being involved just as much. After all, in real life people will experience more platonic relationships than sexual ones.
Agree with you on all those points. Supergirl though I would say queerbaited because although the relationship between the women would seem platonic, they way several cast members treated fans who felt differently was cruel. Meanwhile they included edits in the show where the actresses looked at each other 'that' way or said something in a 'could be perceived as more than platonic' way. They take several shots of scenes. They didn't NEED to choose those cuts. They did it to keep LGBTQ+ fans engaged and then ridiculed them at cons in front of hundreds of others. So yeah, Id say Supergirl definitely fits the queerbaiting label, even with its well done queer representation in Alex.
I wasn't even ever one of those fans. I watched the first two seasons and then lost interest. But when I heard about how fans were treated on multiple occasions... I knew I was done with the show for good. Even if they did fire a cast member for his part in some of it (rather let him 'decide' to move on from the show).
@@pingidjit I definitely did not know about how they treated fans which is a shame. Fans are everything for a show. I haven't watched in the last 2 seasons either but maybe it's for the best it is coming to an end then.
I shipped Stucky but I never expected the writers to make it canon. However I was terribly pissed when Steve abandoned his best friend along with all the other friends he had made for a decade to be with the woman he had been in love with ages ago. It seems that the end of the line came sooner than expected for Steve. He gets to live his apple pie life while his best friend gets torture into insanity. Bravo Steve! I dont know what the writers were thinking.
Sherlock does a service though showing a male relationship that is rarely shown on screen, two men who love each other as really close friends. Only other example I can think of is Superbad. People always have to make the contex a sexual one. Love its more complex then just romantic or sexual.
Their relationship wasn't shown as platonic and the homophobic hateful reactions of the creators don't help your argument either.
@@Mia199603 oh you are right, you win I shan’t speak of it again.
@@Mia199603 It was never shown as anything other than platonic.
Also, Mark Gatiss and his bff are homophobic? Nice one.
I will tell you about this new genre you will love. It's called "buddy-cop movie". It's about intimate male friendship. Also, these are the only example you can think of? For real? House and Wilson, JD and Turk, the guys from HIMYM and Friends, Troy and Abed, Parelta and Boyle and Hitchcock and Scully, Shawn and Gus and the list goes on. I'm pretty sure it's the most popular platonic relationship type on screen apart from family relationships. Also, the Sherlock and John relationship is pretty toxic in the show and the constant fear of beeing mistaken for a couple on John sides does the opposite of helping male platonic love and intimacy.
I'll tell you what, Russian classic literature is probably not your jam. God forbid showing unhealthy relationships in fiction, so that characters could grow through overcoming conflict, right?
I loved "Bros" for the single reason that it's a simple, romantic comedy like any other one out there focusing on the relatively petty lives of the two main characters and an improbable huge gesture in the end, but the only difference was they were two guys.
In its simplicity, it was sooooo refreshing.
does anyone else get fed up with walking on egg shells. Everything is offensive
You are way to old to be on UA-cam
@@ratmon19 not all young people care for manufactured victimhood
@@ratmon19 I'm young and op is right
@@ratmon19 and there is not any specific age limit to be on UA-cam, what u on about?
💯
This was a great deep dive! Thanks!
Honestly, we know that sometimes people are "just friends." But I think some people really don't understand how heartbreaking it is as a gay person to be feel constantly alienated from the media we fall in love with. It is more than true that sometimes people are "just friends" and that friendship itself is a powerful thing. But it seems that that argument is primarily brought up when it comes to same-sex pairings. Honestly, each and every time, we see ourselves on screen, it is so refreshing and the truth is we barely get it. I wish the focus would shift more to friendship between men and women. Or friendship between gay people, especially gay women.
well, imagine how heartbreaking it feels as an ace or bi person, with even less representation to get hate and shit for the little we get for it has to be "queerbaiting" and the representation should have been gay instead . . .
the real crux is, that straight romance rep is everywhere but sucks so hard, that what little gay people get is often superior in quality . . . . how omace gets prortrayed, accepting that bi people are not just gay with another name and that them being in a straighpassing relationship does not make them any less queer . . . exploring that omantic, sexual and aethetic attrations are not always linked and that platonic crushes exist and are just as valid and real then any other . . . there is so much to improve
Dean and Cas in the finale was ridiculous. Like, blink and you'll miss it. Utterly underwhelming so I was really confused about all the hype in the media. Had to watch again 🙃
They showed several images of Kara and Lena, and I wish they'd explored the question those two raise: Is it still queerbaiting if other major characters in the same story are queer?
I had the same thought. That’s a show chock full of queer characters so… isn’t that just some people being upset that they didn’t get the ship they wanted? Especially since that show is rather explicitly about female friendship, empowerment, and support.
In that case I feel they queerbaiting Lena. She is kind of obsessed with Kara and the way she reacted to Kara's omission and saw that as betrayal was too passional. But they indeed do a good job with Alex and Dreamer.
It’s a thing that constantly frustrates me when I see intimate friendships on screen that mirror my own and have people call it queer-baiting. While I don’t deny that sometimes that’s exactly what people are trying to do, I also feel like even with Sherlock, these are just two men who love each other a lot in a non-romantic way. Moreover, as we get into a new era where hopefully sexual fluidity is more accepted AND where emotional intimacy with friends isn’t immediately read as sexual or romantic, I think that there’s no real way to have it both ways here. If we want to see a world on tv where men can express emotions around each other and be vulnerable and say “I love you” we can’t shout “Gay!” like people used to do in the 2000s but from a more positive perspective. I watched Rizolli and Isles and I always thought that I really wanted a friend like that. I dunno. I just think that we need to take a step back and stop over analyzing the text some times.
same, like sometimes it is queerbaiting and weaponised, but very often it is not1
Sometimes the queer baiting argument is not necessarily about the the close relationship between the characters between the characters. To continue with your Sherlock example, people became angry over queerbaiting not because Sherlock and John had an intimate friendship that did not become romantic, but because of the constant jokes within the show about the characters being together, followed by the creators vehement denial of any intention to have them read that way. Instead of being, "that wasn't our intention, but I can see how you would think that", it was "how could you even think that? We're being serious, why can't you be?" as if the possibility was a big joke, despite joking about it in the script. While I agree with you, that Sherlock is a beautiful story of platonic soulmates, they could have just as easily done that without the jokes and gaslighting. Just as you say, we should be able to see vulnerability and love in same sex friendships without screaming "gay!", we should be able to have platonic, same-sex friendships without the movie/show creators using a joking attitude to scream "not gay!"
@@gracexcon eminently reasonable
I'm tired.
Why does the subtext always have to be the gayness.
Tired of hearing people argue if the gayness should be subtle, hinted, implied, explicit, open.
Why is it so damn hard to have our queer themes, and have deeper sub-textual character feelings/motivations that for once, aren't all about that queerness?
It doesn't have to be one or the other, that queerness doesn't have to be nixed for the sake of greater character complexities.
Gay people's only complexities aren't just 'gayness'. But it doesn't have to be watered down for those other complexities to be explored.
Where are all the Supernatural fans?👐🏻💞
Here 🖐
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!! FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I liked viewing Sherlock through the lens that I was seeing a close male friendship - I can see why people saw something different. I want more stories that show close and loving male friendship without it having to be sexual - in addition to loving romances for LGBTQ+ relationships. I don't want male friendships to automatically be portrayed or seen as queerbaiting, because friendships are important too. Obviously the distinction between queerbaiting and authentic friendships is going to be blurry sometimes, but it's worth seeing more platonic male friendships that feature both strength and vulnerability.
I never saw anything sexual between Jon and Sherlock, although they clearly love each other platonically. But there are other cases, Erik and Charles in FC for example, you could literally feel the spark between them, they touched each other all the time
I love that Oscar Isaac refuses to say that Poe Dameron is anything but gay for Fin and it drives Disney crazy. Way to take the bait out of queerbaiting.
They talked about the need for deep meaningful male friendships briefly. I think they should have added that maybe if there were more queer relationships everywhere else the meaningful friend relationships wouldn't be seen as queer baiting as often or maybe at all because the queer community wouldn't be looking so hard for those relationships in anything. All that being said as someone that people thought was gay a lot I know how a friendship between two men can be just like a friendship where the man wants a woman that doesn't want him. I cried when I realized one of my friendships was over because he found out I wasn't gay. He stopped hanging out and being my friend. Later I was told by a mutual friend that he felt I was leading me on. It really hurt. But my point in going through that is that queer people can be just as desperate to see things they want to see as the "friend zoned" guy pining after a girl. They want more representation so they are going to find it where ever they can, but the movie makers shouldn't tease those people with the potential just to get more sales or social media hype. Sorry I went a little off the beaten path there, but I think I got to my point ... maybe.
We should also have a convo about when condemnation for “cultural appropriation” turns into gatekeeping. Of course there are plenty of negatives examples of cultural appropriation, but the line between appropriation and appreciation does exist, even if it’s not always clear.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about supercorp. You referenced it. But God I have never seen a more queercoded relationship. Nor have a been queerbaited so hard.
Goodness Moffat! and yes, Gatiss too. I feel like fans, including me, often leave out Gatiss from the equation because a) he isn't the showrunner, and b) his sexuality. In Doctor Who, the Doctor and the Master were queer-coded but Moffat seemingly confirmed it (he took over in the 2010s) but not before making it fit the heteronormative. At least the 2000s DW had side characters who were openly queer but by the time we actually see a gay couple in the Moffat era, one of them gets killed immediately after. The Doctor's interest in men was written in as a bait, as if to keep a hold on the the queer audience the show already had, while depriving the character of his asexuality when writing him with women. Yes, the line between romance and sexuality is thin but the show was crossing it. He also portrayed the Doctor like a reflection of Sherlock (he was writing the two around the same time) and later on, during the 12 era, he wrote the Doctor like he was confused about his gender. And this was only to set the stage for 13, not representation. It could have gone horribly wrong if the directors and actors weren't sensible enough. And then, even in Dracula, while he wrote the Count as a bisexual, with a man as his bride, and gender swapped Van Helsing, it now fit his straight agenda to link them together romantically. And now I don't know what he's gonna do with Inside Man. Gosh he makes me so angry but I can't stop watching his works.
There are people who are friends who are touchy-feely with one another. It happens in real life and if it happens on-screen, I don't assume anything. While queerbaiting certainly does exist and has happened a lot (Sherlock), by throwing the tern out every single time two women (in particular) hold hands or hug or even touch one another is ridiculous. I can't speak on male friendships because I'm not a man, but women touch and kiss and hold hands and do things playfully all the time and it isn't contingent upon sexuality nor is it trying to imply one. To label any action like that that takes place between two characters/people who have not openly and explicitly stated they are lesbian/bi/queer is what makes the term mean nothing. If everything is queerbaiting, nothing is.
If I see a video and Cardi B is kissing on a woman, so what? There are other videos that do have gay/lesbian/queer people in them. Cardi B performs and does things as a sexual being. So she can do it with whomever she wants to. She doesn't have to justify why she's doing it with someone, And for goodness sake, you'll look at a video and try and judge her sexuality? People ACT in those videos. They can do whatever they want. Again, if everything is queerbaiting, then nothing is and it completely diminishes the meaning of the term.
Sorry but kissing with the mouth is sexual
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Not always. I used to kiss my mom on the mouth when I was younger. Nothing sexual about that.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl mouth kisses don’t have to be sexual unless there’s tongue involved.
Yes but kissing on the mouth... is kind of too much
@@ellealine4159 They're called cultural differences. In places like Northern Europe it was an common greeting between close men. There's even pictures of Mikahail Gorbachev doing it.
Thank you for this! This video really challenged my personal views.
So many of the things that meant a lot to me as a younger lesbian would be considered queer baiting now for sure. Hell, even “all the things she said” was pivotal for me and still holds a place in my heart. And tbh, the ‘women being all over each other in music videos’ stuff did less to mess me up than, say, the L word. The L Word launched me into frantically trying to be straight because while they were representing wlw “correctly”, there was so much cheating and drama and struggles, etc. It was far worse for my little gay brain than some straight girls kissing in a movie trailer ever was. Not trying to hate on the show, I know TV dramas need to have, well, drama lol, and conflict. Just sharing my experience.
Queer aging is like falling in love with a straight girl. You’re invested, and sometimes she drops hints, but in the end she gets a boyfriend.
This video is not differentiating between queerbaiting and shipping. There are many platonic relationships that fans believe to be romantic. It's not queerbaiting if writers didn't intend it.
I personally saw Eleanor's casual bisexual quips cool because it's so normalized and blatantly showing her sexuality. Like, it reminded me of bi girls in straight relationships still affirming they're bi to people who call them straight. But obviously we do need better gay representation and I can see why there'd be frustration.
The cw does it all the time and mtv too especially in teen Wolf
I also think when it comes to real life "queerbaiting" still happens, but it less annoys me that straight people use queer people/images, and more that they use them for shock value or sexy images in their videos. Furthermore it's annoying af when real people, who are admittedly allocishet use these images and stories to get more views and to fetishize, while if actual queer people use queer stories or images they're constantly bullied or attacked for it. I don't mind people being ambiguous about their identities, but many of these are celebrities who are acknowledging themselves as cishet but are held up by straight "allies" as being progressive, when if a queer person were to make these types of moves, those "allies" often go quiet while that person gets attacked. When queer people say that real people are "queerbaiting" I want it to be less about that, and more about the fact that these people are privileged enough to make this content since if they are straight it can be excused by "they're not really queer, they're just making appealing sexy content for the male/straight gaze".
Queer people are constantly attacked for their self expression in the content they produce, and an allocishet celebrity being called out for being privileged enough to make this content without being called a slur is not the same as the attacks those actually queer people get. Sometimes calling them out goes too far, and that's not okay, but it doesn't change the privilege these allocishet celebrities inherently have.
10:25 this is still true today unfortunately. Sense8, Everything sucks, Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, all these tv shows have canon lgbt characters, there were all canceled. And I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot
Hi, Love your videos. If you to accept suggestions, you could do a video about The owl house, it's a Disney cartoon with actual queer representation
Your closing point technically _has_ truth to it - however …
People who write for blockbuster movies or widely syndicated TV shows are not kids in their parents basement with public-access TV shows. They are _professionals_ - and should be held to expectations accordingly.
It is true that we, as audience, can not tell a simple exploration that ventures outside of the binary apart from clear-and-deliberate queer-baiting - at least we can not _always_ do so. However, we _can_ expect _professional_ writers to be _aware_ that they are writing in an environment in which LGBTQI folk are starved for representation.;
And since we can not expect queer-baiting to ever end _unless_ there is accountability for it - then (in light of everything else I have mentioned in this comment) I think it is safe that the Presumption of Innocence is not a luxury that we can afford on this matter where _professional_ content-creators are concerned -- at least not until proper queer representation is more widespread. Presumption of Innocence may work fine for some other things such as criminal law - but not always so in the field of consumers holding mass-media accountable for things such as queer-baiting. Queer-baiting will not end without accountability - and (for reasons I have mentioned) there is no way to provide such accountability without a guilty-until-proven-innocent approach.
Also - even if queer-baiting is not the _intent_ of the content creator it can _still_ be the _effect_ of what they do when they do things that hint at a promise of LGBTQI representation and never deliver. This, of course, will not be the case anymore once positive queer representation is more ubiquitous.
So if you want creators to be free to be able to have characters venture out of conventional gender roles without having to automatically be queer - then the way to that is to demand an END to queer-baiting - and once that is achieved, then free exploration of characters outside conventional gender roles will be _possible_.
Solid point, but I do think you give a bit too much of an expectation of writers for film and tv. It's not really like literature where an author meticulously crafts every word. It's a collaborative process where much of the creative direction doesn't even involve the writers- think editing and camera work. There is also the time and budget constraints, where we have seen amateur mistakes end up in a film with a 200 million dollar production.
@@JebeckyGranjola - Re-reading my original comment, I can see how I (inadvertently) gave you the impression that it is the writer, specifically, who is to blame for the queer-baiting.
What I meant, however, is that in a polished, edited, professional script it should be possible to avoid anything that _looks_ like queer-baiting _unless_ the _studio_ does not want to avoid it.
Yes - I realize that sometimes the stuff that looks like queer-baiting can be as a result of the writer _wanting_ to put representation in there but studio execs not allowing it.
I do not think that it is necessarily the _writer's_ fault --- but more likely, the fault of the writer's _boss._
By the way - I, a complete amateur, back in 2019, wrote a play (that will probably never see the light of day) -- and upon reviewing the play afterwards, I realized that I had inadvertently put a Burry your Gays in it. Solution? In the unlikely event that the play ever looks like it will get a chance to see the light-of-day, I will write in an _additional_ same-sex couple that does _not_ share the same tragic fate.
If I, a complete amateur, can think of such a solution --- then the only thing prevent a large studio from doing the same is if their execs are unwilling - whether it be a result of their personal biases, or whether it is because they are pandering to homophobic markets and want to have it "both ways". And accountability is the only way to end this.
@Red Angel Sophia Perhaps. Is it possible for one to unknowingly QB? I mean this video shows several examples where creatives flat out deny that they are doing it. Maybe they are just lying, but who knows. I think there is something called like sensitivity readers? that are common in print to go over exactly what youre talking about. But as far as I know that rarely or never happens in video writing, except with focus groups, which Isn't really the same thing. Maybe that is something that could be done.
@@JebeckyGranjola - I believe that I answered that one in my original comment. I do not feel like talking in circles.
@Red Angel Sophia Too late. You needn't have replied to my original response, then. I was just trying to humor you, since you seemed to wanted your idea validated.
Seriously such a great video! All aspects of the conversation were brought up thoughtfully and I thought y’all made excellent points!
Ari is bi (she said I like women and men) and Harry is clearly very fluid... He defines fluidity both with his sexuality and gender expression
Why not just show LGBTQ+ characters it's not new and yeah Castiel and Dean defiantly love each other lol
I love you did this video the very same week of the wwdits season finale, when so many people are accusing them of queerbaiting (which technically should be called shipbaiting), but it could be the first time in my life a mainstream show does make the gay slow burn canon
I was happy that you guys did not include the case of Chris Messina saying Roman Sionis and, his character, Victor Zsasz were an item in Birds Of Prey. I think he meant it as a joke and, to be honest, it seemed pretty clear that the 2 characters really were gay and may have been in a relationship (or, at least, that Victor had a crush on Roman). Art is meant to be interpreted.
I'm a lesbian and I don't Billie was queer-baiting at all. Yes, she did say "I love girls" and she was close with her friends in a music video but niether of things gave me strong LGBT vibes. Straight girls frequently say things like "I love my girlfriends" and women being touchy in music videos is normalized. Billie has also mentioned quite a few times that she identifies as straight. Also, her song "Wish You Were Gay" is so painfully heterosexual. Singing about how you wish someone was gay because they hurt your feelings and their gayness would de-hurt your feelings is just...very not LGBT.
There's too much queer themes everywhere as if same-sex FRIENDSHIP is not cool anymore.
no, we’re just tired of not having representation, friendship is EVERYWHERE in media
Yeah but like, Friends to lovers trope though. You cannot beat a good friends to lovers.
@@andreaf8404 You are represented enough in the modern media. It's actually difficult to find a contemporary tv-series or move where same-sex friendship doesn't turn into something romantic (might be one-sided). But that doesn't represent real life relationships. Lgbtq is well-repected part of the society but doesn't mean everything has to be about you.
@@rebekabambulkova7767 ??? What are you talking about? There are tons of modern shows and movies that have same-sex friendships that never become romantic.
@@islasullivan3463 as there are plenty of theme representing queer community
I'm sorry but there is plenty of gay representation. I'd like to see more nationalities and cultures in shows. Then if there is a token black, hispanic or asian they put them with a white person. Why do they need to be in a relationship anyway? Just give me great diverse characters.
ITS JUST DOOD TO SHOE THAT BOTH SIDES CAN FEEL LOVE
In the Good Place, Eleanor ending up with Chidi does not mean that she is straight, and they explicitly say that she is bisexual, Kristen Bell also said she plays Eleanor as bi cause that’s what the character is, and is comfortable with her sexuality. Just because a A bisexual character ends up with a person of the opposite gender does not mean that they were straight they are still bisexual and still able to be attracted to both men and women despite the gender of their partner just like if they ended up with someone of the same gender as them, they wouldn’t suddenly be gay they are still bisexual
Make a take on house md
Pls the show is so great and famous yet noone talks about it
A big question on this subject is that artists and public figures are, in a way, characters, images built for their audience. I believe I've never heard a Harry Stylus song, but I've always seen in my feed how much he "breaks gender standards", and I doubt he can honestly like fashion, but there's no denying how much he earns from media for this action.
In my country a famous celebrity among the queer community and for empowering on your twitter that suffering a backlash for homophobic speeches in a reality show of confinement. It's important to remember that celebrities don't work alone, there are marketers, public relations, social media, producers and many more professionals who carefully sculpt the artist's image
Same with promotions for Ingrid Goes West
One way to kind of look at it is. If queer relationship is demonstrated on screens, is it for LGBTQ audience or straight audience. I feel it's both. According to U.S. census, minority groups is exactly that a minority. It's estimated less than 5% total U.S. population is gay. One can argue about the reported number, but the point is it's very very small; compared to how much it is shown in HollyWood. If I flip on a Netflix teen show, it's likely at least one of the main supporting characters is LGBTQ, which is usually 1/4 - 1/6 of the sub plots.
There's nothing wrong with that, the term queer baiting is what? -- that the story may lead to a queer couple vs baiting queer audiences to watch a show. If a queer audience is drawn to a show; fine. The actual total population is so small that it's unlikely that it moves the needle for TV ratings. If it's Hollywood being more progressive, then cool, it's showing more for what once was very under-represented group. In modern times; straight audience also have no issues with LGBTQ plot lines, if characters are compelling and thing is well acted, stuff like this shouldn't matter and would appeal to everyone.
I agree look how they messed up Batwoman.
No way it's only 5 percent no matter what you say
Queerbating is JKR saying Dumbledore is gay after all the books were already published, then making a movie featuring and younger Dumbledore facing the man he loves, and refusing to show their relationship as gay, keeping it ambiguous. Queerbating is saying Beauty and the Beast will feature a gay character and then show a 3 seconds dance scene where a man dances with another man.
12:17 the narrator couldn't hide how fed up she was lol
This video took a turn I didn't see coming and I LOVE IT!
The recent Inside No.9 episode 'Simon Says' which looked at the issue of modern fandom has 'superfan' Simon accuse Spencer McGuire the showrunner of his favourite show 'the ninth circle' of 'baiting' with the relationship between two male characters in the show (who he 'ships')with Spencer angrily denying it (Simon insists Spencer follow through with this making them a couple properly in the reboot of the show he blackmails him into)- in the podcast about the episode show runners and stars Reece Shearsmith and Steve Pemberton discuss 'baiting' and 'shipping' specifically referencing John Watson and Sherlock (ie JohnLock) in the BBC series 'Sherlock' which was cowritten by and stars their friend and sometime colleague Mark Gatiss (who is very openly gay) . The episode sort of explores what may motivate both these trends
I didn’t see the Billie Eilish tweet but she has clearly and emphatically stated on multiple occasion that she likes “p*nis” and that she “doesn’t get why so many people ask her if she’s bi or a lesbian.”
So any ‘I love girls statement’ is really an “I love humanity” statement, so why not just say you love humanity?
do dave chappelle and trans discourse next please xox
‘Rizzoli and Isles’. Omg I remember that show so well.
I always was a bit sceptical about this term, like i understand queerbaiting does exist, but at the same time... Isn't the whole concept of queerbaiting essentially based on stereotypes on how queer or non queer people act? Isn't this just reinforcing the same old stereotypes, "you can't act like that, unless you're gay?". I don't know, I'm really sceptical about the whole thing.
I don't think Eleanor is queerbaiting though? I'm pretty sure she's meant to be bisexual.
Love your channel! I’d love to see a take on the (newly defined) “Kids on Bikes” genre.
xena warriors princess is so amazing
If a TV-Y7 show on Disney Channel can have a Canon couple between the main character and her girlfriend, other shows have no excuse