I could listen to people talk about the rite of spring for hours. There’s a great story about another composer sight-reading an early draft with Stravinsky, you probably know that one.
@@Keith_Horn Yes, I've only found the one, which said that they played it together and after they finished, there was complete silence from Debussy. Is this the story you are refering?
In a documentary on Netflix about Stravinsky you can hear a folk group singing the melody he used on the famous "Round dance of the princesses" from the Firebird. In Petroushka, he doesn't even try to hide the origin of the melodies. I mean, in his early work he did that all the time! Just amazing how the harmonic approach, voicing and orchestration can change everything. Stravinsky is the man! Thanks for the video!
Stravinsky has used melodies from Russian folklore in his earlier ballets (Firebird and Petrouschka). In the former, the theme of the Princesses' Chorale is subtly borrowed from the Sinfonietta on Russian Themes in A minor Op. 31 by his former teacher Rimsky-Korsakov. Musical literature of all times contains many quotations from folk themes. Thank you for this information, it was very useful.
Another famous Russian melody based, not on a folk tune but a popular song, is the opening of Rach 3. The song is "Yamshchik ne goniy loshadiey", about a man in a gloomy mood, having just broken up with his girl, sitting in a horse-drawn taxi and is in no hurry to get home. The opening line is: Driver, don't whip the horses. Rach changes the rhythm a bit, but the first eight notes are the same. The song goes "da-Dum-dara-Dum-dara-Day". Rach makes it "dum-Dara-dum-dara-dum-Day"
The intro melody was taken from a three volume set of marriage songs collected in Lithuania by the Catholic priest Antanas Juška between 1865 and 1870, that contains over a thousand melodies. Part of the material was published in Krokau in 1900. For more information, I am waiting to see André Schaefer’s book ,,Stravinsky” published in 1930s. He knew Stravinsky, was a French ethno-musicologist, a number of plates from A Juška’s collection are included in his study. Another contemporary of IS was Lawrence Morton that published ,,Footnotes to Stravinsky Studies: ‘Le Sacre du printemps’. Published in 1979 Tempo. Available in some libraries. A couple of scholarly sources. Performance of the song itself is on UA-cam. Type in ,,Evaldas Vyčinas, Šventasis pavasaris’’. Skip the intro and you will hear a great performance of the song.
You're so right. The rhythms and time changes in this piece are amazing. Apparently, many people didn't know it was a bassoon when they first heard it (they couldn't see the orchestra) because no one had ever written a solo that high before.
It's kind of funny that Stravinsky only admitted to taking this one tune because from what I recall reading in the Cambridge Handbook for The Rite of Spring, not only are there others he took, but they appear in the same sequential order in The Rite as they did in the book that he took them all from (i.e. he went from page to page inserting the melody featured on the page into the Rite for about half of the first act before he seemed to finally get tired of it (or lost access to the book) and started writing his own imitations) So he basically didn't even try to be subtle about it. But Stravinsky was also notoriously dishonest about himself and his music, likely because he made more effort than most composers of the time to cultivate a certain public image of himself. So it's on brand.
I knew about the inclusion of folk melodies but I did not know the opening was specifically Lithuanian. However, I seem to recall that Stravinsky intended to open the work directly with the "Augurs of Spring" but then added the Introduction after having written everything else. There are themes from throughout the work hidden in those textures, certain intervals and motifs...one example I think many people miss is the alto flute arabesques which, when slowed down, recall other themes. It may very well be that the discovery of this particular book is what gave him the material for the introduction.
Not quite true. He wrote the first act more or less in the order its heard in the finished version. It was the introduction to the *second act* that he wrote last. The original draft of act II began with the music of the Mystic Circle, I believe.
@@prepcoin_nl4362 That is not what I recall. His original intent was to begin with the famous E Major + Eb 7 chords....when I observed a facsimile of the manuscript ~20 years ago, the Introduction was at the end of the edition. While not necessarily proof of anything, I also remember reading that he claimed that the music of the Intro was written later than (at least most of) the rest of the ballet.
@@MicheleAngeliniTenor I decided to go through some sources to refresh my memory and it does say that he began the composition with Augurs and a few other of the early movements, the introduction is not mentioned, but the "rest of the first act" was written some time later. So I suppose you're right there and I'm misremembering. But the same sources are also very clear that the intro to the second act is the last thing he ever wrote for the ballet. The first act was essentially completed in short score before he ever began work on the second act. So we seem to both be misremembering. In any case, I'm glad he didn't begin The Rite with the Augurs. It's tough to imagine that moment having anywhere the same impact without the introduction.
4:00 It's interesting to hear you say this. As far as I understand it, Stravinsky was a lifelong staunch supporter of the monarchy and Russian empire and his politics were pretty far-right. So, if he was expressing secret support for Lithuanian independence, it would be surprising.
Thanks for your thoughts! It's possible he was both a supporter of the Russian Empire and a sympathizer with minority populations at the same time. I'm speculating, of course, but he was most likely aware of the Lithuanian Press Ban when he used this folk melody. Whether or not he thought it was rebellious we'll never know unless he explicitly said so. If I had a DeLorean with a flux capacitor that's the first question I would ask him!
Folk music is possibly the most well-referred to source of any musical source. It's massive. Possibly bigger as a source than nature-sounds. From my point of view, Stravinsky did write that music. He based it on a folk song. Perfectly fine and valid and normal. He certainly was not breaking the law when he used that Lithuanian folk song as inspiration. It would've been out of copyright at the time, (and the standardization of international copyright would've still been under consideration at that time anyway I reckon.) As far as Stravinsky secretly inserting some Lithuanian folk song into his music on purpose to irk the Russian authorities and/or show solidarity with Lithuania - I highly doubt it. It's a nice idea, but I reckon he found the music, liked it, and if he happened to also discover the music's traditional use too, he'd've thought that would be particularly appropriate - as you've mentioned - for The Rite. Anyway, still an interesting wee video here, so thanks for researching and uploading.
That's a good point about folk music as inspiration for composers, especially in the first half of the 20th century. You're right that Stravinsky wasn't breaking any laws by using this melody but the Lithuanian book smugglers that distributed the anthology were certainly breaking a law of the Russian Empire. I agree that he wouldn't have inserted the folk melody with the intention of irking the Russian authorities, but he would have known it was a Lithuanian folk song and that it was illegal to publish in Russia at the time. Thank you for your thoughts!
there are interviews with stravinsky where he talks about stealing from mozart because he loved it and felt he had a right to. he loved to steal little things from here and there--it was just part of his process. but no, he did not compose that melody---he interpolated it (and many other folk songs) into his greater work as a sort of musical collage. (he even spoke of spreading out music from various folk songs on the floor and randomly assembling them together) i guess you could call it a form of sampling?
@@bobloblaw9679 Is Mozart's work out of copyright? Is his stuff great, and justifiably used as inspiration? Would Mozart wanted to have been an inspiration for later composers? The answer to all these questions is yes.
@@bobloblaw9679 Interpolated is the perfect word for it. We all borrow from everyone and everywhere when we create. It could absolutely be called a form of sampling - well said.
I don't know if that's true or not, but Stravinsky supposedly said that good composers do not imitate, they steal. If that's true, I guess he was referring to something like this, "stealing" existing melody and then developing it further. Btw, I don't think that makes Stravinsky any less accomplished as a composer.
So true. We all borrow and steal from our heroes, influences, and peers when we create something. You're right that Stravinsky is no less of a composer by doing so. I myself have quoted Stravinsky numerous times in my own writing. Most instances have been this opening melody because it's so iconic.
As the Rite of Spring passed from being a modernist challenge into the standard repertoire, this bassoon solo became a "concerto" moment for its players. It has become much too slow and drawn out in many recordings.
What inspired IS was a poem by Gorodecky that was quite famous when it was published. It is gruesome, see translation and explanation of L. Morton. Not polite stuff, more like a precursor or maybe influenced by the atrocities that western civilization wrought on Africa, Asia, the Americas and finally on itself by Communists and Nazis. Very timely stuff, even today. After reading it, you will have lost your innocence. ,,Sacre” is not the same.
I'm not that familiar with Stravinksy but all my musical heroes from Beethoven to Bach to The Beatles to Deep Purple have occasionally ripped off music.
@@Keith_Horn I believe the quote was "only amateurs wait for inspiration" Some "ripoffs" are a subconscious thing. I've known some guitar playing friends of mine thinking they've come up with a great new line or melody until someone points out that it appeared earlier by someone else. Some ripoffs are just the listener hearing similarities that could be coincidental. Some ripoffs though are pretty blatant.
@@user-qb1sm3rk9r So true. I'm guilty of that in my own music. Our creative output tends to be a reflection of our input, it seems. Sometimes we can't help but sound like our heroes and influences.
Interesting content. I don't know why you have to dumb it down with all those silly clips from American popular culture, which for me are just distracting and pointless, and the reason I won't be subscribing any time soon.
I could listen to people talk about the rite of spring for hours. There’s a great story about another composer sight-reading an early draft with Stravinsky, you probably know that one.
Me too! I think it was Debussy?
Can you please elaborate or send a link. I don’t know the story and now I’m hooked
@@martinsaroch3512 The story about Stravinsky and Debussy sight reading Rite of Spring at the piano?
@@Keith_Horn Yes, I've only found the one, which said that they played it together and after they finished, there was complete silence from Debussy. Is this the story you are refering?
@@martinsaroch3512 Yes that's the one. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall for that meeting!
In a documentary on Netflix about Stravinsky you can hear a folk group singing the melody he used on the famous "Round dance of the princesses" from the Firebird. In Petroushka, he doesn't even try to hide the origin of the melodies. I mean, in his early work he did that all the time! Just amazing how the harmonic approach, voicing and orchestration can change everything. Stravinsky is the man! Thanks for the video!
I'll check out that documentary!
Stravinsky has used melodies from Russian folklore in his earlier ballets (Firebird and Petrouschka). In the former, the theme of the Princesses' Chorale is subtly borrowed from the Sinfonietta on Russian Themes in A minor Op. 31 by his former teacher Rimsky-Korsakov. Musical literature of all times contains many quotations from folk themes. Thank you for this information, it was very useful.
That's great info. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@Keith_Horn My pleasure.
After all these years I didn't know that! Thank you.
I just recently learned this myself - thanks for watching!
Another famous Russian melody based, not on a folk tune but a popular song, is the opening of Rach 3. The song is "Yamshchik ne goniy loshadiey", about a man in a gloomy mood, having just broken up with his girl, sitting in a horse-drawn taxi and is in no hurry to get home. The opening line is: Driver, don't whip the horses. Rach changes the rhythm a bit, but the first eight notes are the same. The song goes "da-Dum-dara-Dum-dara-Day". Rach makes it "dum-Dara-dum-dara-dum-Day"
Interesting! Thanks for sharing that story!
The intro melody was taken from a three volume set of marriage songs collected in Lithuania by the Catholic priest Antanas Juška between 1865 and 1870, that contains over a thousand melodies. Part of the material was published in Krokau in 1900. For more information, I am waiting to see André Schaefer’s book ,,Stravinsky” published in 1930s. He knew Stravinsky, was a French ethno-musicologist, a number of plates from A Juška’s collection are included in his study. Another contemporary of IS was Lawrence Morton that published ,,Footnotes to Stravinsky Studies: ‘Le Sacre du printemps’. Published in 1979 Tempo. Available in some libraries.
A couple of scholarly sources. Performance of the song itself is on UA-cam. Type in ,,Evaldas Vyčinas, Šventasis pavasaris’’. Skip the intro and you will hear a great performance of the song.
Great info - thanks so much!
I remember the former conductor of the Joffrey Ballet commenting about this score: “there isn’t an original melody in the entire piece!”
Ha! Maybe that's true, maybe not. Many sections of the piece are non-melodic or the melodies are so obscured that they are hard to find.
Stravinsky may not have written the opening melody, but his choice of bassoon in a high range and the rhythms he chose were absolutely brilliant!
You're so right. The rhythms and time changes in this piece are amazing. Apparently, many people didn't know it was a bassoon when they first heard it (they couldn't see the orchestra) because no one had ever written a solo that high before.
Very interesting history lesson! Thanks!
"I'm not an English horn! This is too high for me!" Thanks for a very interesting video.
HA!
It's kind of funny that Stravinsky only admitted to taking this one tune because from what I recall reading in the Cambridge Handbook for The Rite of Spring, not only are there others he took, but they appear in the same sequential order in The Rite as they did in the book that he took them all from (i.e. he went from page to page inserting the melody featured on the page into the Rite for about half of the first act before he seemed to finally get tired of it (or lost access to the book) and started writing his own imitations) So he basically didn't even try to be subtle about it.
But Stravinsky was also notoriously dishonest about himself and his music, likely because he made more effort than most composers of the time to cultivate a certain public image of himself. So it's on brand.
I didn't know that - that's fascinating! I have to get my hands on that anthology. Thanks for your thoughts!
I knew about the inclusion of folk melodies but I did not know the opening was specifically Lithuanian. However, I seem to recall that Stravinsky intended to open the work directly with the "Augurs of Spring" but then added the Introduction after having written everything else. There are themes from throughout the work hidden in those textures, certain intervals and motifs...one example I think many people miss is the alto flute arabesques which, when slowed down, recall other themes. It may very well be that the discovery of this particular book is what gave him the material for the introduction.
Not quite true. He wrote the first act more or less in the order its heard in the finished version. It was the introduction to the *second act* that he wrote last. The original draft of act II began with the music of the Mystic Circle, I believe.
@@prepcoin_nl4362 That is not what I recall. His original intent was to begin with the famous E Major + Eb 7 chords....when I observed a facsimile of the manuscript ~20 years ago, the Introduction was at the end of the edition. While not necessarily proof of anything, I also remember reading that he claimed that the music of the Intro was written later than (at least most of) the rest of the ballet.
@@MicheleAngeliniTenor I decided to go through some sources to refresh my memory and it does say that he began the composition with Augurs and a few other of the early movements, the introduction is not mentioned, but the "rest of the first act" was written some time later. So I suppose you're right there and I'm misremembering.
But the same sources are also very clear that the intro to the second act is the last thing he ever wrote for the ballet. The first act was essentially completed in short score before he ever began work on the second act. So we seem to both be misremembering.
In any case, I'm glad he didn't begin The Rite with the Augurs. It's tough to imagine that moment having anywhere the same impact without the introduction.
4:00 It's interesting to hear you say this. As far as I understand it, Stravinsky was a lifelong staunch supporter of the monarchy and Russian empire and his politics were pretty far-right. So, if he was expressing secret support for Lithuanian independence, it would be surprising.
Thanks for your thoughts! It's possible he was both a supporter of the Russian Empire and a sympathizer with minority populations at the same time. I'm speculating, of course, but he was most likely aware of the Lithuanian Press Ban when he used this folk melody. Whether or not he thought it was rebellious we'll never know unless he explicitly said so.
If I had a DeLorean with a flux capacitor that's the first question I would ask him!
Folk music is possibly the most well-referred to source of any musical source. It's massive. Possibly bigger as a source than nature-sounds. From my point of view, Stravinsky did write that music. He based it on a folk song. Perfectly fine and valid and normal. He certainly was not breaking the law when he used that Lithuanian folk song as inspiration. It would've been out of copyright at the time, (and the standardization of international copyright would've still been under consideration at that time anyway I reckon.) As far as Stravinsky secretly inserting some Lithuanian folk song into his music on purpose to irk the Russian authorities and/or show solidarity with Lithuania - I highly doubt it. It's a nice idea, but I reckon he found the music, liked it, and if he happened to also discover the music's traditional use too, he'd've thought that would be particularly appropriate - as you've mentioned - for The Rite. Anyway, still an interesting wee video here, so thanks for researching and uploading.
That's a good point about folk music as inspiration for composers, especially in the first half of the 20th century. You're right that Stravinsky wasn't breaking any laws by using this melody but the Lithuanian book smugglers that distributed the anthology were certainly breaking a law of the Russian Empire. I agree that he wouldn't have inserted the folk melody with the intention of irking the Russian authorities, but he would have known it was a Lithuanian folk song and that it was illegal to publish in Russia at the time. Thank you for your thoughts!
there are interviews with stravinsky where he talks about stealing from mozart because he loved it and felt he had a right to.
he loved to steal little things from here and there--it was just part of his process.
but no, he did not compose that melody---he interpolated it (and many other folk songs) into his greater work as a sort of musical collage. (he even spoke of spreading out music from various folk songs on the floor and randomly assembling them together)
i guess you could call it a form of sampling?
@@bobloblaw9679 Is Mozart's work out of copyright? Is his stuff great, and justifiably used as inspiration? Would Mozart wanted to have been an inspiration for later composers? The answer to all these questions is yes.
@@mrnnhnz Mozart's work might never have been in copyright, but he died 233 years ago, so his work is certainly public domain now.
@@bobloblaw9679 Interpolated is the perfect word for it. We all borrow from everyone and everywhere when we create. It could absolutely be called a form of sampling - well said.
Sneaky Stravinsky!
Really interesting insight on this!
Thanks!
I had no idea.
swan you say. just like. just like. just like popular ballet swan lake-- [i am shot]
Just like that other swan!
I don't know if that's true or not, but Stravinsky supposedly said that good composers do not imitate, they steal.
If that's true, I guess he was referring to something like this, "stealing" existing melody and then developing it further.
Btw, I don't think that makes Stravinsky any less accomplished as a composer.
So true. We all borrow and steal from our heroes, influences, and peers when we create something. You're right that Stravinsky is no less of a composer by doing so. I myself have quoted Stravinsky numerous times in my own writing. Most instances have been this opening melody because it's so iconic.
As the Rite of Spring passed from being a modernist challenge into the standard repertoire, this bassoon solo became a "concerto" moment for its players. It has become much too slow and drawn out in many recordings.
It has! It's almost comical how drawn out some performances are.
What inspired IS was a poem by Gorodecky that was quite famous when it was published. It is gruesome, see translation and explanation of L. Morton. Not polite stuff, more like a precursor or maybe influenced by the atrocities that western civilization wrought on Africa, Asia, the Americas and finally on itself by Communists and Nazis. Very timely stuff, even today. After reading it, you will have lost your innocence. ,,Sacre” is not the same.
That's fascinating - thanks for your input!
I'm not that familiar with Stravinksy but all my musical heroes from Beethoven to Bach to The Beatles to Deep Purple have occasionally ripped off music.
You're right about that. Was is Picasso that said "Good artists copy, great artists steal"?
@@Keith_Horn I believe the quote was "only amateurs wait for inspiration" Some "ripoffs" are a subconscious thing. I've known some guitar playing friends of mine thinking they've come up with a great new line or melody until someone points out that it appeared earlier by someone else. Some ripoffs are just the listener hearing similarities that could be coincidental. Some ripoffs though are pretty blatant.
@@user-qb1sm3rk9r So true. I'm guilty of that in my own music. Our creative output tends to be a reflection of our input, it seems. Sometimes we can't help but sound like our heroes and influences.
A Russian folk song… but whoever wrote that couldn’t have written the Rite…
True!
Uh… the main point of the video hinges on it not being a Russian folk song, but Lithuanian!
Interesting content. I don't know why you have to dumb it down with all those silly clips from American popular culture, which for me are just distracting and pointless, and the reason I won't be subscribing any time soon.
I do lean a bit silly for some tastes. Thanks for your feedback, Robert.
I like it just fine.
Honestly, with such a sophisticated analysis--the cutscenes appear to be childish, distracting, and annoying--Ruining the feel of the info here.
That's a good note. I like to keep my videos light-hearted but sometimes the silliness is out of place. Thanks for your feedback!
@@Keith_Horn 👍
@@Keith_Horn The Judas Priest insert is hilarious.
@@UFO314159 Thanks! It made me laugh, too.