Sonic 3 & Knuckles - Sonic Was Always Good
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- Опубліковано 4 вер 2021
- Sorry for the occasional hitching in the footage. No idea what happened with my recording. Might have similar stuff in my next few videos if that problem is in the other footage I've already recorded.
I'm just gonna have to accept that these Sonic videos are going to be super long aren't I? Ugh... So be it.
You have no idea how much stuff I cut out of this video. It could have been double the length if I put in everything I wanted. But I really don't want my videos to keep being so long. I'd rather more concise stuff. But whatever. I will probably go back to breaking future games into parts, but I honestly don't expect them to be much shorter because of it going forward... Ugh...
I hope my hyper gameplay and design focused views on these games are making for some interesting and unique critiques of them. I've never seen other reviews talk about some of the things I've been mentioning. At least not as in nearly as much detail as I'm going in. I'd like to avoid just regurgitating the same thousand points everybody has already talked to death about these games. CD will be interesting, I think.
Here's a link to a spreadsheet I put together compiling all of my Sonic recommendations.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
You can support me here if you want. ko-fi.com/pariah695 - Ігри
UPDATE: The Steam version of 3K is no longer available. But you can still play AIR if you get a ROM from somewhere else and put it in the right folder.
@@EthanQuach Does that included the android version too.
@Ethan Quach They can't do that, it counts as piracy. But honestly who cares
@@theraymunator that's not piracy, its a mod that you apply to a rom you absolute dork
yar har fiddle te de
@@theraymunatorit's not like anyone will go after you if you download a rom of S3&K that is pirated
-disagreed with you on everything
-still enjoyed listening to you passionately talk about Sonic
Same
Could you give a summary on what you disagreed with? The video made sense to me so I'm curious
@@AndoLarousse I didn't really like the special stages point but I haven't watched the full video, I'll update if I feel like it
P.S as someone who likes AND enjoys completing Sonic games I don't agree with removing stuff and only focusing on traditional Sonic gameplay, like, you can always come back after finishing a game and complete a save file which is how I got the last super emarald
I'm having a very similar experience
"Sonic 2 is better at doing non-linear level design"
Me: ?
"Hydrocity feels closed off"
Me: ???
"Flying Battery, lots of split paths there"
Me: ??!??!?
I disagree with his view that faster times = better player. It depends on the game, but there are many examples where this isn’t the case. For Sonic, you could argue that collecting rings is the main focus of the game, they earn the bonus stuff, not fast times. Rushing through the levels means you’ll collect less rings, plus lose them through taking hits (as seen many times in this footage).
To me, a “better player” would be one who strikes a balance between speed and rings. At least he acknowledges that not everyone is going to agree with him, so it’s hard to hate on the guy. I respect his passion for the series, he goes into more depth than a lot of people would.
I think S3&K was developed from more of a story/adventure/exploration standpoint rather than a pure gameplay standpoint like Sonic 2. That's likely why a lot of the zones felt linear to you, because I'm guessing to activate certain cutscenes throughout some of the zones, they had to make sure you took a specific path to get there. Whereas in Sonic 2, it's just the traditional zone after zone after zone with nothing stringing them together to form continuity between them.
They still could have made the game non liniar it's simple realy you just make all the routs bottleneck at the cut scene wich îs all most allways at the and of an act or zone
As a glitchless speedrunner (essentially timeattacker for the whole game) I love the bosses in s3k. Every boss has a cool strategy you can use for a quick kill. I find it really punctuates each zone and adds an element of danger to your runs. You're pretty good at these games, you would make a great glitchless runner
I've thought about it. But I don't want to put that much time into a single game. I like playing a variety of games. Thanks, though.
@@Pariah6950 Fair enough, that's totally understandable. Thanks for spreading the word on what makes classic sonic games so great
Hearing you say COINS instead of RINGS is giving me PTSD.
Yep
It’s annoying
He might as well call sonic Mario at this point
The joke died after sonic 1 pt 2
@D E M O N_S L A Y E R 7 9 no
These videos came out before that game
It's just a joke. You guys will survive.
he also said that Doomsday zone has a healthy amount of split paths D
Exactly
"Sonic special stages were never good"
Pariah695, probably
>Prefers Sonic 3 over Sonic 2.
You truly are a man of culture.
It just goes to show you just how good Sonic 3&k is that even if you’re someone who prefers speedrunning and time attacking over exploration and whatnot, that there’s still a good chance that 3&k will still be your favorite game in the series. And it get exponentially better if you’re someone like me who both loves to speedrun these games AND loves to explore every path, find secret shields and Special Rings, and go for a high score.
After seeing Paramount Sonic 2, Knuckles being strong enough to "break physics" like you talk about here is a fucking awesome concept and fits his character and powers perfectly
Yep
I still have no clue why Knuckles can glide... They just have no explanation for it, it just seems to be able to fly through the air despite being a land mammal (he doesn't even have a convoluted excuse like Tails, he just simply _can)._ Its so funny lol. XD
The idea is that his dreads spread out and catch air, increasing drag and slowing his descent.
@@Pariah6950 That's so bizarre lol... guess I shouldn't be surprised. XD
I kinda agree with you about special stages. While they are iconic and a staple of the series, I much prefer how some of the 8-bit games handled the Chaos Emeralds. By hiding them in regular stages for you to find by exploring.
I find it way more convenient and rewarding than the game just throwing you into an unfun (and eye-bleeding) mini-game you have to beat seven times. (or 14 if you're playing 3&K.)
something i noticed about hyper sonic is that it's just super sonic with all elemental shields
-breathing underwater
-double jump
-invincible to fire and lava (though super already has this)
15:07
In the 3DS version of Sonic 2, it's possible to play Super Sonic if you get all emeralds and unlock the good ending with Sonic. Super Sonic mode gives you all the emeralds, and gives you 50 rings at the start of a level.
Incidentally just before finding this channel I started time attacking Sonic games and it was pretty eye opening, made me feel like I don't truly understand something until I try it.
The thing about the top path being faster I felt was a rule all Sonic games followed but I also felt it made it feel predictable? S3&K surprised me when I found sometimes the mid or lowest routes can be faster, or multiple routes almost taking the same amount of time casually so you really have to push runs of multiple routes to see what works best for you and I really like that.
I also don't mind some of the levels being more or less linear cause it adds so much variety. (except Hydrocity 2, pretty boring stage yeah)
It's nice to see a more Emerald Hill style layout on occasion though like Mushroom Hill's.
To be honest getting the Chaos Emeralds and Super Emeralds for me feels like a growth for Sonic.
Back in Sonic 1, Sonic had NO IDEA what the Emeralds could do.
Back in Sonic 2, Sonic learned the powers of the Seven Chaos Emeralds. But he didn’t use it in a Final Boss Fight.
In Sonic 3 And Knuckles, not only did Sonic use get his Super form back but he was able to upgrade it to something greater than he could’ve ever imagined, and for the first time could use in a actual Final Boss Fight. Hyper Sonic.
The games continuing were like “Ha Ha Super Form Go BRRRRR!!!!” instead of the lore they used to have.
Also they are Rings, not Coins.
I got 99 Continues for Sonic and Tails, Tails, and Knuckles and Tails, along with all Super Emeralds for them as well, getting Perfects in every single Special Stage in Sonic 3 Angel Island Revisited. I have a flex. Don’t forget the Super Forms/ Hyper Forms of the other characters, Hyper Tails being added in Sonic 3 Angel Island Revisted.
Man you sure know what makes a Sonic game click. I’m so glad I found this channel since you’ve given me new insight on games in this series I’ve previously disliked/ never cared for and give them another try for the fun parts. This series isn’t called Sonic Was Always Good for nothing.
These videos are great. Thanks for the suggestions of best ways to play these.
"The elemental shields incentivize you to be a bit more careful so you can keep your shield"
*proceeds to zoom through like in the Sonic 1 play through and lose shields constantly*
I'm just giving you a hard time ;D I love these videos!
Really enjoying these videos, can't wait for you to cover Mania!
Something I regularly see stated is how supposedly Sonic 3 is so open and explorative in terms of design, when in my experience is actually the most linear of the classics. The game simply rewards exploration far better than past games with Giant Rings, Elemental Shields, etc. Its clear that using as much space on bitmap was a priority with Sonic 3&K and creating a more controlled core experience and story, and that resulted in more linear design. Which personally I dont even see as a flaw, but it's true.
I'm posting this before watching in hopes it's something you address. Sonic 3 is a game imo that very much is a step I would say shows how the 3D games came about with their design phylosophy, right down to set pieces, story and even the environments looking more grounded and "real" looking. Angel Islands leaves are a perfect example. The leaves look like actual leaves unlike the Pamtrees in Green Hill.
The level background is more directly married to the actual foreground level design creating a more grounded in space and time feeling compared to past games as well.
Yout point about the special stages is actually something I largely agree with even though I like the system, and is something I have said for a while. Gonna disagree about bosses though.
EDIT: You addressed it!!!!! Thank god!
Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) levels designs to me felt like a big optional playground for specific characters to accommodate them and their powers/abilities to have fun and enjoy yourself with, which was why I found appeal towards Sonic and almost everything else in this franchise. And this was my first ever video game as well as my first Sonic game to have ever played, (specifically S3&K on PC) which left an impact on my me appreciating video games as a medium, playing as 3 Mutiple Characters that you can choose, traversing levels anyway at your own leisure, building up a World and Characters to be memorable and iconic, and multiple save-files to choose from your last safe point destination you stopped at, I would not say everything in this game was perfect, but personally to me when taking a look back on S3&K it feels like a game that was kind of ahead of its time.
I'd wager that boss in Sonic can work, but only if Collision Chaos/Casino Night is used as a template
Hear me out, having to actually slope jump and attack from the right angle in a Sonic boss, and a big open area to gain momentum to do the previous 2 things
Saying that the collision chaos boss should be used as a good example might be the most sadistic thing Ive ever heard
@@bigprogaymer6923 It has been a year and I've made new discoveries in Sonic game design ideas
AKA Sonic is fundmentally gonna make designing bosses hell in a way Mario barely avoided
I like how they added when you run into a breakable object or wall really or push something he starts to sort of punch it.
I honestly prefer the linear/ branching path variation between zones in 3k, it adds a bit more identity to each level
Fun fact: if you do a really specific super glide as hyper knuckles in angel island act 1, you can access the sonic route for act 2 and it will play out like normal with no problem
Played it for the hundred time last week. Great video!
"sonic 2 is much more even quality all around"
I think you forgot about just how utterly rancid metropolis zone was
I love Metropolis Zone.
@@Pariah6950 you scare me
Yeah Sonic 2 starts to decrease in Quality past a certain point. By the time you reach Metropolis it's at its worst. I'd say Sonic 3 is the most consistent classic Sonic game in terms of quality, definitely.
Nah. Metallic Madness is true hell
@@xdluck_xd7481 metropolis is worse
It's insane what they were able to do on a Genesis with this game!
This game is close to perfection. I poured countless hours into S3K as a kid. Haven't tried AIR yet, maybe it's time.
14:54 i didnt realize he called the rings coins until that part damn.
I happen to like the special stages, but I can see why they might not appeal to someone who prefers the momentum maintaining speed of the actual zones and acts. A semi-fast paced puzzle is pretty different from speedy platforming after all.
Oh, and I was pleasantly surprised to see you enjoying Knuckle's moveset, he is by far my favorite of the three characters.
This is truly incredible!
No comments and not even 100 views? how this is amazing
I downloaded Sonic 3 A.I.R a few days ago and and i love it
For me, what I like about Sonic 3 and Knuckles is that not all the levels feel the same (unlike sonic 2, which kinda just feels like a pallet swap at times) but doesn't grind to a halt like Sonic 1 does.
Edit: but what do I know. I really like Hydrocity.
i love the bosses at the end of each zone
2:43
I find it funny how we call these shields Bubble, Fire, and Electric when their official names are Flame, Thunder, and Aqua.
I swear, there must be somewhere that caused this possible misconception.
Edit: Thunder was originally called Electric in 3&K and R.
The same thing goes for Aqua, as it was called Water.
I’m still wondering where Fire and Bubble came from.
Question: Why are Mighty and Ray essential mods for Sonic 3 & Knuckles according to you?
Knuckles DOES get faster when gliding. He gets faster the longer he glides for. It can observed here: 33:44.
15:24 Did you know that there is a mod for Sonic 3 A.I.R. that does exactly that. It's called Hyper Mode. You start with 50 rings and when you jump you turn Super or Hyper (you can change it in the mod settings.)
I think the way you talked about sonic 3s level design on this game made me realize why I don't like mania
It just hit me... Sonic 3's bonus stage isn't a gumball machine, it's a *gacha* machine!
blue spheres coins serve the same purpose as the coins in sonic 1 special stage, just for continue
Question: Is there are Way for Sonic being able to use the peel out & drop dash in Time Attack mode for This game?
Yes, you can select Sonic and hold left and right to see Sonic - Max Control in Time Attack if you unlocked the achievements to unlock Sonic abilities.
What does Angel Island Revisited have over Complete? Better FPS and performance? Or there is something more to A.I.R.
I do prefer Complete over A.I.R. There are things that Complete has over A.I.R. such as the attention to detail for each zone icon, the attention to detail for Super Sonic form, and I just love the transition between Launch Base and Mushroom Hill Zone. There is even an option where you could play Flying Batter Zone after Carnival Night instead of Mushroom Hill. (as it was originally intended)
The biggest things for me are an excellent time attack mode. And the drop dash and peelout for Sonic. Also flight cancel for Tails.
Widescreen is also a very big deal to me. Helps visibility a lot at medium speeds.
And mod support. I have a mod linked that brings the improved sprites from Complete into AIR.
@@Pariah6950 I suppose there are some things that A.I.R. have over Complete. But at the same time, Complete has something over A.I.R. I suppose it's a matter of which version you prefer to play.
Oh and another thing that Complete has over A.I.R. is that unlike A.I.R. you don't need to have ROM to play Sonic 3 Complete. Just letting you know.
There is dozens of mods that bring over mostly everything from Complete into A.I.R. And installing A.I.R is very easy.
I think for chaos emeralds u should get them if u get a good time for a.stage so it encourages the majn sonic gameplay and it is more satisfying
Can you do a walkthrough of carnival zone as Tails. One of the rotating drums I can't get past. I use bubble shield as Sonic but that isn't an option as Tails
If you didn't know, you can actually control the rotating drum with the d-pad. By switching between holding up and then holding down, the drum will move up/down so you can get past!
But what if you could turn it into Sonic-16?
Yeah I think Sonic 2 has the best levels, after that I'd put Sonic 3, then S&K or 1, and at the very bottom there's CD.
Also in regards to Hydrocity consider this: it's a water level that doesn't totally suck ass. And the music slaps. I'd say that makes it good even if it's more linear than others
Just to add to my other comment i dont think 3k is linear at all outside Flying Battery and Sandopolis. There are a ton of paths in every level, much more than Sonic 2. If you look at the level maps for each game you can see just how non linear 3k is and it certainly feels that way when playing outside those aforementioned zones i mentioned. Interesting you find them linear
Not linear. But more linear. There are a lot of unavoidable parts of levels that you must do no matter what. Sonic 2 doesn't really have that.
Flying battery, lots of split paths there??? What???
Well it has more paths than Ice cap
@@themissingbits6375 that's right
Sonic 2 is my favorite 2d sonic game and i feel having that opinon is fine. There is no right or wrong in subjective enjoyment of a game. The levels are more speed focused which i like rewarding memorization more than Sonic 3k. None of the Sonic 2 levels overstay their welcome even Metropolis Act 3 is fine by me. I like the level asthetics in Sonic 2 more as well. And i Love 3k but as you said the levels put more emphasis on slower exploration which i really love but levels like Flying Battery and Sandopolis are just sooooo long and almost every zone in 3k features some slower platforming bit no matter how good you are. Sonic 2 does not have this outside Sky Chase. I mean the 2 games are so close but I do like Sonic 2 more. . I am enjoying all these Sonic videos whether i disagree or not I enjoy well thought out analysis videos, espcially of Sonic games. Just found the channel its been great stuff. You SA2 opinion in partciular articulated why i feel the SA1 speed stages are superior. I always had a hard time articulating this to ppl but you explained my thoughts exactly and I can finally describe myself to ppl now in that regard
5:42
About Special Stages: You said you don't give a shit about getting perfect and also feel empty about fun when playing them, but...
I know getting perfect doesn't give anything meaningful beside points *however* I do like to try to get perfect on all the Special Stages, because THAT is what makes they challenging and fun to me. lol
The same way you advise to try to time attack all the stages to get the way they are intended to play, and thus get more fun them. I think you should also try to get perfect on them all to get more of they way they are intended to play.
I've gotten perfect on all of them in the past. They get more challenging, but not much more fun to me. Doesn't change my feelings. Just makes them take longer. But to each their own.
@@Pariah6950 yeah, I agree is not for everyone. I may just be a bit OCD and couldn't leave the special stage leaving the rings behind LOL
I always thought sonic three was short
Maybe it's just me, but the Sonic 2 special stages are far superior. There is a certain flow to them, they are fun and achievable. The blue sphere thing is terrible. You can spend 10 minutes wandering around in circles on this migraine planet at 700mph looking for the last few blue spheres that are somehow completely surrounded by miles of reds. You will never find them and you can forget about getting another try at it because the next giant ring you find will magically disappear if you don't jump into it the second it appears. Not fun.
Shouldn’t Sonic Origins Ultrafix be on your recommendations list? Maybe a few other Origins mods too? Because there may be some people like me who actually kind of prefer Origins over the fan-game remakes. I tried to play them as replacements of the original games, but I couldn’t. I like playing Origins better.
Putting Origins Ultrafix on there would mean recommending Origins. Which I don't. If you want to play that for whatever reason, find your own mods.
@@Pariah6950 but some people like me actually prefer Origins. Can’t you at least include it for those who want to know what mods are best?
It’s pronounced Hydrocity
I probably just someone off 🤣
Sonic 3 A.I.R. requires the Steam Sonic 3 & Knuckles ROM. According to the site, there’s “a hard technical requirement to use that exact ROM”
Trouble is, SEGA have removed Sonic 3 & Knuckles from Steam. If what they say about the ROM is true, then unfortunately, that remake is dead.
It's not. You just need the right version of the ROM in the right folder. There's nothing special about the Steam ROM.
@@Pariah6950 Have you read what it says on the site? They seem to think it is special, to the point where the game will crash if you don't use it.
I'll take your word for it though. But that begs the question, which is the "right" ROM. Will most ROMs work? or should I be looking for something in particular? For the record, I own the game in multiple forms, just not on any digital platforms.
@@KC.086 It seems to be just a torrent for the ROM. I'm wary of public torrenting but I guess it would be a way for people to get it, provided there are seeders.
Your hatred of lives must be punished
Ok
K in 2 should be reviewed
IMO the Sonic 3 portion is better than the Knuckles portion. My rank for the Classic games probably Goes Mania, 3, 2, Knuckles, CD and 1
U like things built for speed running becuase ur a speed runner Iam taking notice of I am not a speed runner I play games for there story and experiance I unlock things on games like super sonic for the bill shot challenge and to see the experiance of that Iam not looking for a quick time at all lol
coins
Is it just me, or was the video glitching/lagging in a few spots
It was. I had some issues with my capture. Sorry about that.
@@Pariah6950 It's Alright. BTW. LOVE THE CONTENT. You got a loyal subscriber
@S92 he probably meant to reference the meme
You could say Sonic 3&K is where the Sonic games have peaked. This is also the end of an era. I'd say the next mainline game after Sonic 3&K is Sonic Adventure. But yeah, between Sonic 3&K and Sonic Adventure, there was a series of (You could call them) Sonic spinoffs which they all kinda sucked.
It was at this time when SEGA was struggling with two things. Making good Sonic games and staying relevant in the console market. This was also a period where SEGA stop making good decisions.
Update: I watched your videos about those "spin-offs" and ok maybe they aren't that bad but still not as good as Sonic 2, 3&K, and Sonic Adventure. Just saying.
I always get perfects
Fun is objective and the special stages add variety
Don't you mean subjective
@@user-fy1nq3nf1q No. Sonic 3 is fun. You will enjoy it. This is not debatable. Failure to have fun when playing Sonic 3 will result in execution by firing squad.
@@aortaplatinum Tell that to the barrel of doom and the stupid spinning tops in marble garden
@@user-fy1nq3nf1q Please face the wall.
@@aortaplatinum make me
not gonna lie most of the stuff that was said in this video and made me confused and made me think to myself that this was some bulllshit but eh sonic content is sonic content i guess
Sonic and knuckles was a long ass game but not sonic three
>bosses are bad
Why?
You never actually say why bossfights suck. They just do, and if you start discussing them you say that like its a common sentiment.
I explain it in my first Sonic 1 video.
Honestly, it sounds like you enjoy nothing at all about these games except the main normal levels. It's baffling
Yeah, pretty much. Is it weird to enjoy the part of the game (that takes up 90% of it) that is astronomically better than the other parts?
@@Pariah6950 Fair enough. But then there was your comment about Super Sonic breaking the game, which I'd argue is the point of slogging through special stages. To make the main levels even faster and more limitless for your trouble.
@@MarkerMurker My thoughts on Super Sonic have changed. I mention it in the description and my 3D Blast video.
Keep gameplay more slower paced,okay?
2 years late but i still wanna share my opinion
sonic 3 is better than sonic 2. i have more fun with sonic 2 due to the level design. sonic 2 is the better game for me at least
Finally someone who understands that Sonic 2 has the better level design. This game made stages too big and I think they're too many of them. The game should have smaller and fewer stages then this would be Sonic 2 but a little different. Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles alone are too short separately but together I think they're too long. That extends to Sonic Mania as well. However that games level design is anout as good as Sonic 2. I don't care that most of it is recycled zones because they play nuch better to me. Especially with Sonic 1 stages for obvious reasons and with Sonic 3 stages. I just call this Sonic 3. The and Knuckles addendum was unnecessary from day one five days before my birth.
Did you see the entire video?
Yo
Stop calling rings coins
Dafuq
You're gonna get shit about calling blue spheres bad.
I mean we all have opinions
If I hear you say “coins” one more fking time after this I’m out
It’s annoying
1:55 to skip the shilling for fan modifications
Sonic was never good
What purpose does this comment serve
🤓
@@user-fy1nq3nf1q Humor...
a really cheap attempt at that too.