My 2 main zen shadows may be: 1) zen teaching me to endure stuff rather than act upon it; and 2) me hoping zen will fix things rather me doing something about the problems.
May be, the Zen shadow refers also to something called Zenbyo or Zen sickness, which happens when some Zen practisioners (mostly Rinzai) have a mental breakdown when they relentlessly pursue Satori. That happens in some Zen temples in Japan and Dogen Zenji strongly advised against that practice focussing instead on Shikantaza or just sitting.
@Zenways_zen Hi there. You can find it in Dogen's Shobogenzo (chatpers Bendowa and Genjo-koan). There is no difference between practice and experiece and and to learn about the Buddha's true is to learn ourselves. To learn ourselves is to forget ourselves (shinjin datsuraku bodega and mind fall). Nishijima's translation is very good
Oh, I interpreted the question quite differently, to be about possible harms of the meditation practice itself. Dissociation for example. Having spent too much time on the internet, I've seen plenty of posts in this vain and assumed the questioner was refering to those as what they've "been hearing".
My interpretation is the shadow is: they traits we have that we are not fully conscious of. Ie, if I am manipulative and I know I am manipulative that is not a shadow that is bad behaviour.
Roshi, is calling teachers in the west this name 'Zen Masters' wise? My understanding is that in Zen tradition the equivalent 'Zenji' is a special honorific title reserved for very distinguished teachers in the Zen lineages. Also, sensibilities may be muddled by the fact that in Japanese Zen lineages people may be under the impression that if someone dresses like a monk then they ARE a monk (subject to full monastic Precepts) when, in fact, they may be a lay person. Bringing back the ancient Buddhist social teaching of the world of money (exploitative and profit-driven) and social climbing as Samsara, as driven by selfish desire and ignorance, would help matters, IMO. And generally: More women! ... men, as a group, have a lot more social-power delusion to work out, and women could help address that, I think. All the best, Hanrei.
As Zen Master Ikkyu made the point that those in the temples studying endless philosophies of Zen and adorning themselves even with the attire only seek there own esteem or to feed there ego. He said that a true monk is not in the temple or a monastery but those who carry the Spirit of Zen. Meaning those who have truly found enlightenment or Satori. It's not about the mind's knowledge or the body's clothing but going beyond the body-mind. 🙏
Hello Harry, thank you for your message. You're right, the title "zenji" is mostly reserved for deceased teachers and a couple of monastery abbots. Probably clearer definitions would be very helpful. I too have seen criticisms of "cosplay" - people dressing up but not really living the life. We seem to be seeing more and more senior female Zen influence in the western world. I hope you're right that this will be a force for good 🙏🏻
The fundemental root problem , as I see it , is simply Wanting . Knowledge , wisdom, disatisfaction with being what & where one is ( or seems to be ) . Isnt there some saying " thou shall not want " ascribed to a certain personage ? AND , anyone who desires power or control over others should just be a busnessman or be in the military , NOT in the spiritual marketplace , unless theyre perverse & stupid & want to take on further bad karma !
Well I’ve been zen monk for more than 10 years and I think I’ve seen it all. Use and abuse of power at every level and in every form. Advising to open your eyes to a beginner is just not gonna cut it, because you basically don’t know what to look for do you? Otherwise abuse wouldn’t be possible. I’ve seen students being gladly abused. And you might ask : well is it abuse then ? Hell yes it is ! As a beginner you don’t sign up to be abused but to practice. Along the way you fall under the spell of this charismatic being : the master. It’s position itself confers him or her a spécial « aura » and most of all a great deal of power that one should only use to serve the well hearted students. Alas, such was not always the case. The most conscious of bot protagonists in a relationship is responsible for the relationship. Is the student supposed to be the responsible one ? I don’t think so. Saying that nobody is perfect is just an evident truth but as a master you are not asked to be perfect but to be conscious of your power and the responsability you agreed to take upon yourself by accepting to be in this role and guide a disciple.
Thank you for sharing 🙏I agree. The only thing I could say is that having power over anyone or anything is a believe that should be dissolved for the one who is more aware of that illusion, the teacher or "the authority"🙏 But also I´ve seen that some of them persue a "career" in any path, Zen and others, just to manipulate people and they are conciouss about it
My 2 main zen shadows may be: 1) zen teaching me to endure stuff rather than act upon it; and 2) me hoping zen will fix things rather me doing something about the problems.
🙏🏻
🙏 greetings Daizan Roshi. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these topics. 🙏
You're very welcome, Vince 🙏🏻
May be, the Zen shadow refers also to something called Zenbyo or Zen sickness, which happens when some Zen practisioners (mostly Rinzai) have a mental breakdown when they relentlessly pursue Satori. That happens in some Zen temples in Japan and Dogen Zenji strongly advised against that practice focussing instead on Shikantaza or just sitting.
Thank you for your comment. Do you have some quotes? 🙏🏻
@Zenways_zen Hi there. You can find it in Dogen's Shobogenzo (chatpers Bendowa and Genjo-koan). There is no difference between practice and experiece and and to learn about the Buddha's true is to learn ourselves. To learn ourselves is to forget ourselves (shinjin datsuraku bodega and mind fall). Nishijima's translation is very good
Thank you for this informative talk. 🙏🏽
You are very welcome, Bellarose 🙏🏻
Oh, I interpreted the question quite differently, to be about possible harms of the meditation practice itself. Dissociation for example. Having spent too much time on the internet, I've seen plenty of posts in this vain and assumed the questioner was refering to those as what they've "been hearing".
Hello, thank you for your comment. You could be right. I'll listen out for whether that's a dimension that needs addressing 🙏🏻
My interpretation is the shadow is: they traits we have that we are not fully conscious of. Ie, if I am manipulative and I know I am manipulative that is not a shadow that is bad behaviour.
Makes sense 🙏🏻
Roshi, is calling teachers in the west this name 'Zen Masters' wise?
My understanding is that in Zen tradition the equivalent 'Zenji' is a special honorific title reserved for very distinguished teachers in the Zen lineages.
Also, sensibilities may be muddled by the fact that in Japanese Zen lineages people may be under the impression that if someone dresses like a monk then they ARE a monk (subject to full monastic Precepts) when, in fact, they may be a lay person.
Bringing back the ancient Buddhist social teaching of the world of money (exploitative and profit-driven) and social climbing as Samsara, as driven by selfish desire and ignorance, would help matters, IMO.
And generally: More women! ... men, as a group, have a lot more social-power delusion to work out, and women could help address that, I think.
All the best,
Hanrei.
As Zen Master Ikkyu made the point that those in the temples studying endless philosophies of Zen and adorning themselves even with the attire only seek there own esteem or to feed there ego. He said that a true monk is not in the temple or a monastery but those who carry the Spirit of Zen. Meaning those who have truly found enlightenment or Satori. It's not about the mind's knowledge or the body's clothing but going beyond the body-mind. 🙏
Hello Harry, thank you for your message. You're right, the title "zenji" is mostly reserved for deceased teachers and a couple of monastery abbots. Probably clearer definitions would be very helpful. I too have seen criticisms of "cosplay" - people dressing up but not really living the life. We seem to be seeing more and more senior female Zen influence in the western world. I hope you're right that this will be a force for good 🙏🏻
The fundemental root problem , as I see it , is simply Wanting . Knowledge , wisdom, disatisfaction with being what & where one is ( or seems to be ) . Isnt there some saying " thou shall not want " ascribed to a certain personage ? AND , anyone who desires power or control over others should just be a busnessman or be in the military , NOT in the spiritual marketplace , unless theyre perverse & stupid & want to take on further bad karma !
🙏🏻
Well I’ve been zen monk for more than 10 years and I think I’ve seen it all. Use and abuse of power at every level and in every form. Advising to open your eyes to a beginner is just not gonna cut it, because you basically don’t know what to look for do you? Otherwise abuse wouldn’t be possible. I’ve seen students being gladly abused. And you might ask : well is it abuse then ? Hell yes it is ! As a beginner you don’t sign up to be abused but to practice. Along the way you fall under the spell of this charismatic being : the master. It’s position itself confers him or her a spécial « aura » and most of all a great deal of power that one should only use to serve the well hearted students. Alas, such was not always the case.
The most conscious of bot protagonists in a relationship is responsible for the relationship. Is the student supposed to be the responsible one ? I don’t think so. Saying that nobody is perfect is just an evident truth but as a master you are not asked to be perfect but to be conscious of your power and the responsability you agreed to take upon yourself by accepting to be in this role and guide a disciple.
Thank you for sharing 🙏I agree. The only thing I could say is that having power over anyone or anything is a believe that should be dissolved for the one who is more aware of that illusion, the teacher or "the authority"🙏 But also I´ve seen that some of them persue a "career" in any path, Zen and others, just to manipulate people and they are conciouss about it
Thank you for your comment, Christophe. So sorry to hear of your unfortunate experiences. I hope you can find a more suitable monastery. 🙏🏻
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