Thank you so much for these great lectures. I love how organised and clear is your discussion of these fundamental ideas for the understanding of human psychic life. Thank you for making it available.
I have been going through the literature of psychoanalytic theory for about 5 months now. Extremely fascinating and helpful. made me want to be analysed and perhaps one day be an analyst (I am a student of Psychology in Prague), and throughout this time, Dr. Carveth has been an indispensable companion. I even bought and read his latest book "psychoanalytic thinking." I am not sure if professor Carveth will see this comment, but he has been a consistent companion of mine, and I wanted to say something. Thank you Professor.
Thank you for this excellent lecture, the way you have put a timeline together of Freud's understanding of anxiety and how this progressed to the other key figures has been very helpful.
I really appreciate the usefulness of distinguishing the different types of anxiety and their causes. The hospital at which I work, mostly sees anxiety as simple response to trauma that needs to be ameliorated.
Thank you for this quick dive into the different perspectives of anxiety. Rage. Repressed anger. People who dont want to be angry. Freud. Breakdown of Damning up of libido. Two types. 1. Traumatic (automatic) Anxiety example Trauma of Birth. A prototype of later anxiety states. 2. Signal Anxiety. Small amounts of anxiety. Anticipation. Defense. To avoid a larger anxiety that comes with trauma. TBC.
I am a new listener here. I enjoy among other things the conversational tone of the Dr.’s voice. I am also intrigued by the red walls , ceiling, furnishings that surround the Doctor. I would sit in that room overwhelmed by the deep redness. As a person with synesthesia, voices convey tone as color or texture. Thankyou for good talks. I realize once again how rich and strange our world is. Jennifer F. Portland OR
Thank you for this and so many of your other videos! It has really helped to land some of the readings I have been doing and it's great to have a video to watch on these topics that feels so knowledgeable and helpful! I hope you keep making them!!
It's good to know that Freud altered his original view of anxiety. I was diagnosed as having an anxiety neurosis. Sexual repression was not my issue, yet everything in Freud's altered understanding of anxiety was. One of my early dreams was of being in my mother's birth canal, spinning around and around. I was overwhelmed in high school and college. All my repression was from childhood unawareness. This is what I focused on in my self analysis.
We can be anxious regarding our ability to attract or hold the desire of the other, but that is a different matter from, say, and anxiety attack that may well arise from powerful impulses and urges, such as repressed hate.
Hi Dr. Carveth would you be able to discuss the destroying/ integrating the super-ego more in-depth, as well as Hartmann and Loveinger and Ego Development?
How well I understand the catch-22. It almost seems like a curse since it truly separates us from those we want to help, especially family members who are now out of reach. I have never studied Kierkegaard or existentialism. If there is life after death, I will return in a different life form from the one I've lived during this lifetime - hopefully, human, once again.
Ingur, Thank you for your response which encourages me to prepare a talk on the sexual, which I agree is a centrally important topic. I also agree that Greene s mportant.
Thank you, all your lectures are incredibly helpful. Hope you are keeping well. It would be great if you could talk about how to work with clients who show symptoms of OCD.
Some times you can get anxiety about your true feelings being exposed. You could fear something being said that will cause the unwanted feelings, incongruent feelings to rise to the surface and become detected by someone you are scared of.
Thank you professor , I'm in analysis and I use some of your ideas , both to speak about my mental situations and learning about psychoanalysis. by the way I want to Ask you a favor , would you please make some videos about differences between Freudian, Kleinian & Lacanian clinical Psychoanalysis ?
10:30 birth trauma is compounded by unnecessarily separating the baby from the mother in the hospital, cutting the umbilical cord quickly, and circumcision (the pain lasts well beyond the anaesthesia and causes ptsd).
Thanks a lot. I am exactly like those "new therapists" so ready to see it as fear instead of as reaction to the unwanted feelings or impulses. Also I am wondering how Lacan's idea of anxiety can be integrated into what are discussed in this video. Asking who I am regarding other's desire towards me (if my understanding of Lacan's anxiety is right) sounds like a philosophy view.
If the Super Ego ‘loves’ to beat the Ego, is the Super Ego getting Libidinal Pleasure from its Moral Power and is therefore Sadistic. It seems to me that the Ego can be anxious that it could make an Identification with the Super Ego and thus be anxious about Cruel as well as Aggressive wishes. The Aggressive part is an attempt to defend the Self but in the Sadistic situation the Ego is movitated by the Pleasure in causing hurt, its caring about the fate of the object in as much as it wants the object to suffer. I think this is a huge source of Anxiety.
Thank you for your videos! I am not a professional, just a person who tries to understand, and in my own healing process, I inadvertently came across my original all-pervasive love for my mother (that basically has nothing to do with my actual mother, who is cluster B), so I was wondering, is there any study related to the girls in this context? Thank you!
Very helpful explanation of anxiety. Thank you! I have not heard you speak of André Green, nor the sexual. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Green wants to bridge the gap between subject- and object thinking, and I wonder how this compares to your dialectical thinking. And sexual behavior, sexuality, perversion (sadism/masochism) as topics in sessions seems so important and complex, but seems to have become taboo and quite incomprehensible again amongst therapists to discuss with clients. I wonder what your thoughts on those topics are. Thank you again for sharing all these great videos! They have been helping me a lot in understanding many difficult concepts and use them for the benefit of my clients.
Theory has nothing to do with experience, maybe the psychiatrists need to feel some anxiety to get to a few facts. This kind of sex obsessed analysis, replete with a glossary of Freudian verbiage, is really bizarre, and does not have any relation to anxiety!
I’ve been asked to do one on depression and that will naturally cover anger as well, since much depression is simply anger turned back against the self.
Very great If we consider existential anxiety in psychoanalysis it is about what phase or is it near persecutory anxiety or similar it. It is not clear for me how and when happen and it is common in human bein Also if we look at in psychoanalysis theory
Ever since stumbling on your channel it has implored me to learn more and dive deeper into the realm of psychoanalysis, Thank you for putting the time into this content, it being readily available and free is fantastic. Alas I am coming into your content with little prior knowledge to a majority of the topics you cover, do you have any books you could recommend to give me a more rounded perspective or to further dive into all of this?
How come you don’t mention Irving Yalom in the end of your talk on the integration of existential and psychoanalytic work? He was mentored by Rollo May incidentally
Hi. How do you reconcile your concern about people having very negative (e.g. hateful) thoughts with what you have characterized elsewhere as people being unable to overcome the "infantile equation of thoughts with actions" (e.g. fearing that rage/anger will have consequences in the external reality - "people will start dropping like flies")? Is it a question of proportion (breadth or depth of same)?
People have to learn how to allow their anger, hate, etc. to come into their minds and fantasies without going into action. In other words, instead of repression, or acting out, there is feeling, Fanta seeing and thinking.
I'm very curious to know the median age of your patients/clients/analysands. I would imagine that most are older than 40. Emotions build with time. It's best to get some psychoanalytic psychotherapy when young. I was known to have a chip on my shoulder (maybe it's still in place.) If I had waited another 20 years I'd likely be full of rage. Good on those who are seeking more emotional depth in their lives. 🥰
Why don’t ‘they’ want to be angry? Say more about that please Prof…that seems really important as it explains why some people can express anger healthily & others can’t leading to a repressive reflex that increases corticosteroidal activity that literally & metaphorically inflames & increases intrapersonal pressures that must come out eventually or corrode the host from within, ie: disintegration product…could you expand on that please as that seems important or am I missing something or just misunderstanding…?🤷♂️
Because they have the unconscious fantasy that anger kills. They suffer from magical thinking. They imagine a death wish brings about a death. Once such magical thinking is overcome anger seems far less dangerous.
One question about shame and guilt. I get that they are virtually the same in PS. And also get the difference between guilt in PS and repairative concern for the other in D. But is there not some meaningful distinction to be made between mature shame and guilt, i.e. in D? Mature shame or capacity for shame seems to me to be regulatory. Say that I catch an impulse to say or do something obscene sexually in a context where I might really not hurt anyone else in any tangible sense. In this case I don't envisage any particular guilt, but I could still be warned off as it were by a sense of shame that signals that I shouldn't transgress the boundary here simply because I do no want to be or become that kind of a person. That feeling of shame also seems to be anchored in conscience. I have often faced the regulatory power of shame when it comes to defending important values. It is not persecutory and it would be theoretical to say that I defended the values at issue because of some tangible harm that would otherwise ensue. Quite the contrary. People with strong values often create pain for others because they can't accept to further neglect some important value. The mature usage of freedom of speach is just one example. It seems that values and mature shame are closely linked here. We do seem to defend values partially because of a background sense of mature shame that indicates how we would feel should we refrain from acting according to our deepest conviction. So I wonder whether it would be fair to say that shame and guilt are all the same in PD while shame in D helps to regulate what we strive to be and become, given our deepest conscience, while guilt more closely regulates our relationship to others, especially in cases where we sense that out actions have been or might be wrong and indeed hurtful to others?
I guess I think of shame as narcissistic. My mind is on you not on the other, or only on the other in so far as I am ashamed before him or her. It does not reflect concern for the other, only concern for me and my self image. I have trouble considering that mature. It also seems a bit persecutor right to me in a narcissistic way. Shane certainly performance functions of social control. In that sense it is useful and in keeping people in line. I think it’s better if people choose to behave well out of genuine concern for others rather than in order to maintain a positive self image.
@@doncarveth Thanks indeed. You link mature guilt strongly to a concern for others, which allegedly is not the case for shame. I am not so sure. What I called mature shame is different from merely maintaining a self image. It is about actively supporting what conscience signals to you to give priority to; i.e. what kind of being you are presumed to be with and for others. Perhaps you insist on calling that emotion guilt? With your terminology the notion of shame does not add anything to the meaning of guilt. That is rarely the vase with language.
For some time I thought about pride in the same way that you conceive of shame, pace being opposite notions. But it is my deepest convictions that emotions come in mature and immature forms. So pride is often tyoically narcissistic. But a healthy sense of pride means that you know, deep down in you heart, that who and what you are constitute something good in this world. Today we live in a society that parades people who become humble enough to get rid of their narcissistic pride, but we have almost no reference to the pride that deeply knows love (which amongst other thing many of the native American elderly were known for). It is essentially the same with shame. A healthy sense of pride comes with a capacity for a healthy sense of shame (and guilt) or so it seems. The one who can feel healthy pride and shame is a strong loving value centered presence in this world. If she is challenged and starts to deviate from conscience, that is is tempted to sin, she plainly knows that this is wrong and if she contemplates sinning more deeply she would feel that that course of action would shrink her very being. That feeling is mature shame and it seems to presuppose healthy pride. Would you claim as well that there is no mature, healthy form of pride? While I am exploring the appropriate vocabularly with respect to healthy shame, evert cell in my body knows that healthy pride is a vital life achievement.
Let us imagine a person that decides to acknowledge the truth on some important matter. Perhaps he does this first for himself and subsequently he also conveys the truth for others. Why does he do that? Well, because he is mature enough to appreciate the value of truth. Perhaps guilt is a contributory feeling here. He has genuine concern for others as well as a fundamental concern for truth. His respect for the truth, however, is essentially more fundamental than his concern for others. Why? Because there can be no concern for others without some primordial acknowledgement of truth. Perhaps this mature man is also to some extent guided by a contributory sense of mature shame. He simple is so identified with truth that considering significant deviations from truth feels wrong - a feeling he perceives to be a soft loving indication that he shouldn't deliberately miss the divine mark and shrink. I suggest that two things are clear here: 1. That you can pursuit ultimate values without being concerned with a primary concern for others. 2. That this example captures maturity in relating to impersonal values, not narcissism. Your analysis seems caught in a divide between myself and others. You call priorities of the former narcissism and the focus on the latter mature concern. That is a false divide however. Love knows no borders. When we pursue say e.g freedom we don't ultimately do that for myself or for others. Freedom and love is what remains for everyone and everything when we relinquish our possessive control. Would love to hear your response to this view. Best
@@jonashjerpe7421 I think you falsely distinguish the love of truth from the love of the other. But truth is the other. Both science and love require us to get over ourselves toward the other.
This discourse is basically ethical: a form of conceptual analysis / interpretation of authoritative texts guided by moral considerations. There is not one statistic cited, nothing has been measured, no case studies referenced, just the anecdote about Freud's mother. The Super-ego and conscience are differentiated entirely in terms of what genuine moral authority should be about, namely concern (love). But I would not say it is not an empirical discourse. It just shows that one can be empirical from one's arm-chair, and that conceptual reflection can lead to as many discoveries (be as fruitful as) any experiment or field work, as the late biologist Ernst Mayr once observed. Is guilt really more evolved than shame? This must depend on whether one thinks it is more evolved to prefer to offend others or oneself. Concomitantly, to please others or to please oneself. These moral questions can only be answered case by case, with reference to one's developmental attainment (phase of life) and personality type. Obviously, if one steadfastly refuses to offend oneself one won't get very far in society. But this does not mean there is not wisdom in that attitude. For one is not always motivated to BE in society. People have private lives and they retire (leaving childhood out of it altogether). To establish what kind of a person you are, just answer the question "Which is worse--shame or guilt?" As with all fears, the fear in guilt (which Fritz Perls once equated with fear of rejection by the loved "object") may also be responded to aggressively, with denigration, which you refer to as the natural response to frustration (children's tears can be angry). Or by taking to heart the liberating (immoral?) interpretation of guilt offered by Perls. Granted, this is easiest if one has already been (or feels) if not abandoned by, independent of those who matter to one. Shame, on the other hand, is where our failure really and unequivocally 'hits home.' Personally, I would sooner live with having offended others than offend myself, with whom I must live in near constant contact. This would have been Schopenhauer's response, and Nietzsche's as well. To have failed in one's own eyes is radically debilitating, while with guilt the path is always open to make amends. This may be why we see guilt as preferable to shame--it contains the possibility of forgiveness (reparation). Still, some have pointed out that we probably make too much of the distinction between shame and guilt. There are culture which do not have the distinction. What is radical about Freud is precisely his endeavour to trace such things back to their common root. His reductiveness. But this can be taken too far, and it is easy to reject the effort if one does not share the theoretical goal of a psychodynamic explanation, a particular metapsychology, etc. How would Freud answer your assertion that conscience is different from the Super-ego?
Don Carveth I think all parts of the psyche have equal potential to get ill and turn against the mind, in the same way that all parts of the body can get ill. And all parts of the psyche have the potential to be the reason you heal mentally... sometimes it’s feels like there’s a constant target on the super ego, like when society suddenly deems a group of people as villains of the world. I’m just thinking out loud.
Thank you so much for these great lectures. I love how organised and clear is your discussion of these fundamental ideas for the understanding of human psychic life. Thank you for making it available.
Most welcome
I have been going through the literature of psychoanalytic theory for about 5 months now. Extremely fascinating and helpful. made me want to be analysed and perhaps one day be an analyst (I am a student of Psychology in Prague), and throughout this time, Dr. Carveth has been an indispensable companion. I even bought and read his latest book "psychoanalytic thinking." I am not sure if professor Carveth will see this comment, but he has been a consistent companion of mine, and I wanted to say something. Thank you Professor.
Thank you very much, Taif
@@doncarveth happy to hear from you professor. I went through with my plan to get analyzed. I am in analysis right now.
Thank you for this excellent lecture, the way you have put a timeline together of Freud's understanding of anxiety and how this progressed to the other key figures has been very helpful.
Thank you, I’m glad you find it helpful
Brilliant Don. Really appreciate your videos, very insightful. Thank you.
Thank you for all the work you put in and all the insights you have shared! It has really helped me understand myself better!
Mikael L, rhank you for letting me know.
I really appreciate the usefulness of distinguishing the different types of anxiety and their causes. The hospital at which I work, mostly sees anxiety as simple response to trauma that needs to be ameliorated.
Thank you for these video lectures.
Thank you for this quick dive into the different perspectives of anxiety.
Rage. Repressed anger.
People who dont want to be angry.
Freud. Breakdown of Damning up of libido. Two types. 1. Traumatic (automatic) Anxiety example Trauma of Birth. A prototype of later anxiety states. 2. Signal Anxiety. Small amounts of anxiety. Anticipation. Defense. To avoid a larger anxiety that comes with trauma.
TBC.
I am a new listener here. I enjoy among other things the conversational tone of the Dr.’s voice. I am also intrigued by the red walls , ceiling, furnishings that surround the Doctor. I would sit in that room overwhelmed by the deep redness. As a person with synesthesia, voices convey tone as color or texture. Thankyou for good talks. I realize once again how rich and strange our world is. Jennifer F. Portland OR
Jennifer, welcome to my red world
Thank you for this and so many of your other videos! It has really helped to land some of the readings I have been doing and it's great to have a video to watch on these topics that feels so knowledgeable and helpful! I hope you keep making them!!
It's good to know that Freud altered his original view of anxiety. I was diagnosed as having an anxiety neurosis. Sexual repression was not my issue, yet everything in Freud's altered understanding of anxiety was. One of my early dreams was of being in my mother's birth canal, spinning around and around. I was overwhelmed in high school and college. All my repression was from childhood unawareness. This is what I focused on in my self analysis.
Wonderful lecture, Don! I’m so pleased to have come across your excellent and careful scholarship!
Thanks very much.
We can be anxious regarding our ability to attract or hold the desire of the other, but that is a different matter from, say, and anxiety attack that may well arise from powerful impulses and urges, such as repressed hate.
Hi Dr. Carveth would you be able to discuss the destroying/ integrating the super-ego more in-depth, as well as Hartmann and Loveinger and Ego Development?
@@mitchell_fig I will try to get to that, thanks
Thank you for posting this!!
How well I understand the catch-22. It almost seems like a curse since it truly separates us from those we want to help, especially family members who are now out of reach.
I have never studied Kierkegaard or existentialism. If there is life after death, I will return in a different life form from the one I've lived during this lifetime - hopefully, human, once again.
Thanks for another productive lecture
Ingur, Thank you for your response which encourages me to prepare a talk on the sexual, which I agree is a centrally important topic. I also agree that Greene s mportant.
Thank you, all your lectures are incredibly helpful. Hope you are keeping well. It would be great if you could talk about how to work with clients who show symptoms of OCD.
Some times you can get anxiety about your true feelings being exposed. You could fear something being said that will cause the unwanted feelings, incongruent feelings to rise to the surface and become detected by someone you are scared of.
Yes, for sure
Nice
Thanks, Don. It's always a pleasure listening to you.
Perhaps in future. At least this seminar indicates he is not guilty of ignoring affect.
Happy to hear this, thanks.
Thank you for creating these videos
Most welcome
Insightful analysis
Thank you professor , I'm in analysis and I use some of your ideas , both to speak about my mental situations and learning about psychoanalysis.
by the way I want to Ask you a favor , would you please make some videos about differences between Freudian, Kleinian & Lacanian clinical Psychoanalysis ?
10:30 birth trauma is compounded by unnecessarily separating the baby from the mother in the hospital, cutting the umbilical cord quickly, and circumcision (the pain lasts well beyond the anaesthesia and causes ptsd).
Thanks a lot. I am exactly like those "new therapists" so ready to see it as fear instead of as reaction to the unwanted feelings or impulses. Also I am wondering how Lacan's idea of anxiety can be integrated into what are discussed in this video. Asking who I am regarding other's desire towards me (if my understanding of Lacan's anxiety is right) sounds like a philosophy view.
Also, I really like this idea 41:17
As a trainee counsellor, I feel very privileged to be able to access your lectures. Thank you.
You are welcome, good luck with your training
If the Super Ego ‘loves’ to beat the Ego, is the Super Ego getting Libidinal Pleasure from its Moral Power and is therefore Sadistic. It seems to me that the Ego can be anxious that it could make an Identification with the Super Ego and thus be anxious about Cruel as well as Aggressive wishes. The Aggressive part is an attempt to defend the Self but in the Sadistic situation the Ego is movitated by the Pleasure in causing hurt, its caring about the fate of the object in as much as it wants the object to suffer. I think this is a huge source of Anxiety.
Yes
Thanks Shayne
great job Don
Thank you for your videos! I am not a professional, just a person who tries to understand, and in my own healing process, I inadvertently came across my original all-pervasive love for my mother (that basically has nothing to do with my actual mother, who is cluster B), so I was wondering, is there any study related to the girls in this context? Thank you!
Very helpful explanation of anxiety. Thank you!
I have not heard you speak of André Green, nor the sexual. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Green wants to bridge the gap between subject- and object thinking, and I wonder how this compares to your dialectical thinking. And sexual behavior, sexuality, perversion (sadism/masochism) as topics in sessions seems so important and complex, but seems to have become taboo and quite incomprehensible again amongst therapists to discuss with clients. I wonder what your thoughts on those topics are.
Thank you again for sharing all these great videos! They have been helping me a lot in understanding many difficult concepts and use them for the benefit of my clients.
Theory has nothing to do with experience, maybe the psychiatrists need to feel some anxiety to get to a few facts. This kind of sex obsessed analysis, replete with a glossary of Freudian verbiage, is really bizarre, and does not have any relation to anxiety!
Most welcome.
Could you do one on anger?
I’ve been asked to do one on depression and that will naturally cover anger as well, since much depression is simply anger turned back against the self.
Very great
If we consider existential anxiety in psychoanalysis it is about what phase or is it near persecutory anxiety or similar it. It is not clear for me how and when happen and it is common in human bein
Also if we look at in psychoanalysis theory
The existential anxiety will be handled differently if the person is in PS or D
Ever since stumbling on your channel it has implored me to learn more and dive deeper into the realm of psychoanalysis, Thank you for putting the time into this content, it being readily available and free is fantastic. Alas I am coming into your content with little prior knowledge to a majority of the topics you cover, do you have any books you could recommend to give me a more rounded perspective or to further dive into all of this?
Steven Michell and Margaret black, “Freud and beyond” is very good.
This is very helpful. Thank you. I wonder what are your thoughts on the impact of the sexual assault.
How come you don’t mention Irving Yalom in the end of your talk on the integration of existential and psychoanalytic work? He was mentored by Rollo May incidentally
Hi. How do you reconcile your concern about people having very negative (e.g. hateful) thoughts with what you have characterized elsewhere as people being unable to overcome the "infantile equation of thoughts with actions" (e.g. fearing that rage/anger will have consequences in the external reality - "people will start dropping like flies")? Is it a question of proportion (breadth or depth of same)?
People have to learn how to allow their anger, hate, etc. to come into their minds and fantasies without going into action. In other words, instead of repression, or acting out, there is feeling, Fanta seeing and thinking.
@@doncarveth Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply.
I'm very curious to know the median age of your patients/clients/analysands. I would imagine that most are older than 40. Emotions build with time. It's best to get some psychoanalytic psychotherapy when young. I was known to have a chip on my shoulder (maybe it's still in place.) If I had waited another 20 years I'd likely be full of rage. Good on those who are seeking more emotional depth in their lives. 🥰
Even coffee gives me anxiety.
Would you do a talk on anger and rage? Irvin Yalom across a number of his numerous books says that therapy starts with rage 😤
Add to my list
Why don’t ‘they’ want to be angry?
Say more about that please Prof…that seems really important as it explains why some people can express anger healthily & others can’t leading to a repressive reflex that increases corticosteroidal activity that literally & metaphorically inflames & increases intrapersonal pressures that must come out eventually or corrode the host from within, ie: disintegration product…could you expand on that please as that seems important or am I missing something or just misunderstanding…?🤷♂️
Because they have the unconscious fantasy that anger kills. They suffer from magical thinking. They imagine a death wish brings about a death. Once such magical thinking is overcome anger seems far less dangerous.
I've had panic attacks for 3 years
Iranian doctors couldn't help me
It's so excruciating
Who can help me plz?
Try Tahereh Asgharnejad in Tehran
@@doncarveth many thanks professor
@@doncarveth i googled the name but there is nobody specialized in psychoanalysis with this name
@@ephemeral1151 I will see if I can provide you more information
t.asgharnejad@gmail.com
One question about shame and guilt. I get that they are virtually the same in PS. And also get the difference between guilt in PS and repairative concern for the other in D. But is there not some meaningful distinction to be made between mature shame and guilt, i.e. in D?
Mature shame or capacity for shame seems to me to be regulatory. Say that I catch an impulse to say or do something obscene sexually in a context where I might really not hurt anyone else in any tangible sense. In this case I don't envisage any particular guilt, but I could still be warned off as it were by a sense of shame that signals that I shouldn't transgress the boundary here simply because I do no want to be or become that kind of a person. That feeling of shame also seems to be anchored in conscience.
I have often faced the regulatory power of shame when it comes to defending important values. It is not persecutory and it would be theoretical to say that I defended the values at issue because of some tangible harm that would otherwise ensue. Quite the contrary. People with strong values often create pain for others because they can't accept to further neglect some important value. The mature usage of freedom of speach is just one example. It seems that values and mature shame are closely linked here.
We do seem to defend values partially because of a background sense of mature shame that indicates how we would feel should we refrain from acting according to our deepest conviction.
So I wonder whether it would be fair to say that shame and guilt are all the same in PD while shame in D helps to regulate what we strive to be and become, given our deepest conscience, while guilt more closely regulates our relationship to others, especially in cases where we sense that out actions have been or might be wrong and indeed hurtful to others?
I guess I think of shame as narcissistic. My mind is on you not on the other, or only on the other in so far as I am ashamed before him or her. It does not reflect concern for the other, only concern for me and my self image. I have trouble considering that mature. It also seems a bit persecutor right to me in a narcissistic way. Shane certainly performance functions of social control. In that sense it is useful and in keeping people in line. I think it’s better if people choose to behave well out of genuine concern for others rather than in order to maintain a positive self image.
@@doncarveth Thanks indeed. You link mature guilt strongly to a concern for others, which allegedly is not the case for shame. I am not so sure. What I called mature shame is different from merely maintaining a self image. It is about actively supporting what conscience signals to you to give priority to; i.e. what kind of being you are presumed to be with and for others. Perhaps you insist on calling that emotion guilt? With your terminology the notion of shame does not add anything to the meaning of guilt. That is rarely the vase with language.
For some time I thought about pride in the same way that you conceive of shame, pace being opposite notions. But it is my deepest convictions that emotions come in mature and immature forms. So pride is often tyoically narcissistic. But a healthy sense of pride means that you know, deep down in you heart, that who and what you are constitute something good in this world. Today we live in a society that parades people who become humble enough to get rid of their narcissistic pride, but we have almost no reference to the pride that deeply knows love (which amongst other thing many of the native American elderly were known for). It is essentially the same with shame. A healthy sense of pride comes with a capacity for a healthy sense of shame (and guilt) or so it seems.
The one who can feel healthy pride and shame is a strong loving value centered presence in this world. If she is challenged and starts to deviate from conscience, that is is tempted to sin, she plainly knows that this is wrong and if she contemplates sinning more deeply she would feel that that course of action would shrink her very being. That feeling is mature shame and it seems to presuppose healthy pride.
Would you claim as well that there is no mature, healthy form of pride? While I am exploring the appropriate vocabularly with respect to healthy shame, evert cell in my body knows that healthy pride is a vital life achievement.
Let us imagine a person that decides to acknowledge the truth on some important matter. Perhaps he does this first for himself and subsequently he also conveys the truth for others. Why does he do that? Well, because he is mature enough to appreciate the value of truth. Perhaps guilt is a contributory feeling here. He has genuine concern for others as well as a fundamental concern for truth. His respect for the truth, however, is essentially more fundamental than his concern for others. Why? Because there can be no concern for others without some primordial acknowledgement of truth. Perhaps this mature man is also to some extent guided by a contributory sense of mature shame. He simple is so identified with truth that considering significant deviations from truth feels wrong - a feeling he perceives to be a soft loving indication that he shouldn't deliberately miss the divine mark and shrink. I suggest that two things are clear here: 1. That you can pursuit ultimate values without being concerned with a primary concern for others. 2. That this example captures maturity in relating to impersonal values, not narcissism.
Your analysis seems caught in a divide between myself and others. You call priorities of the former narcissism and the focus on the latter mature concern. That is a false divide however. Love knows no borders. When we pursue say e.g freedom we don't ultimately do that for myself or for others. Freedom and love is what remains for everyone and everything when we relinquish our possessive control.
Would love to hear your response to this view. Best
@@jonashjerpe7421 I think you falsely distinguish the love of truth from the love of the other. But truth is the other. Both science and love require us to get over ourselves toward the other.
This discourse is basically ethical: a form of conceptual analysis / interpretation of authoritative texts guided by moral considerations. There is not one statistic cited, nothing has been measured, no case studies referenced, just the anecdote about Freud's mother. The Super-ego and conscience are differentiated entirely in terms of what genuine moral authority should be about, namely concern (love).
But I would not say it is not an empirical discourse. It just shows that one can be empirical from one's arm-chair, and that conceptual reflection can lead to as many discoveries (be as fruitful as) any experiment or field work, as the late biologist Ernst Mayr once observed.
Is guilt really more evolved than shame? This must depend on whether one thinks it is more evolved to prefer to offend others or oneself. Concomitantly, to please others or to please oneself. These moral questions can only be answered case by case, with reference to one's developmental attainment (phase of life) and personality type. Obviously, if one steadfastly refuses to offend oneself one won't get very far in society. But this does not mean there is not wisdom in that attitude. For one is not always motivated to BE in society. People have private lives and they retire (leaving childhood out of it altogether).
To establish what kind of a person you are, just answer the question "Which is worse--shame or guilt?" As with all fears, the fear in guilt (which Fritz Perls once equated with fear of rejection by the loved "object") may also be responded to aggressively, with denigration, which you refer to as the natural response to frustration (children's tears can be angry). Or by taking to heart the liberating (immoral?) interpretation of guilt offered by Perls. Granted, this is easiest if one has already been (or feels) if not abandoned by, independent of those who matter to one. Shame, on the other hand, is where our failure really and unequivocally 'hits home.'
Personally, I would sooner live with having offended others than offend myself, with whom I must live in near constant contact. This would have been Schopenhauer's response, and Nietzsche's as well. To have failed in one's own eyes is radically debilitating, while with guilt the path is always open to make amends. This may be why we see guilt as preferable to shame--it contains the possibility of forgiveness (reparation).
Still, some have pointed out that we probably make too much of the distinction between shame and guilt. There are culture which do not have the distinction. What is radical about Freud is precisely his endeavour to trace such things back to their common root. His reductiveness. But this can be taken too far, and it is easy to reject the effort if one does not share the theoretical goal of a psychodynamic explanation, a particular metapsychology, etc. How would Freud answer your assertion that conscience is different from the Super-ego?
Freud does not answer that because he failed to grasp the distinction between punitive and reparative guilt.
What percentage had Freud proven incorrect?
32:52 Melanie Klein and Anxiety
Why is the super ego always the villain in all the theories?
Can you suggest any others?
Don Carveth I think all parts of the psyche have equal potential to get ill and turn against the mind, in the same way that all parts of the body can get ill. And all parts of the psyche have the potential to be the reason you heal mentally... sometimes it’s feels like there’s a constant target on the super ego, like when society suddenly deems a group of people as villains of the world. I’m just thinking out loud.
What can psychoanalysis say about OCD Don?
Good suggestion, thanks
Thanks dr hope we can translate your vidio to arabic
I hope so too, thanks
And Lacan's year long seminar on Anxiety?
Because without Lacan, nothing worthwhile exists
Nah...I do not agree with this.