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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- Destructive vs. Constructive envy. Penis envy.Phallus envy. Womb and breast envy. Invidiousness. Projection of envy. Consumer capitalism as stimulatiing envy. Envy of the ruling class inhibiting revolutionary efforts.
Envy and jealousy indicates unresolved issues with parental figures, I would think - lack of feeling loved and/or oedipal issues?
Excellent examples differentiating envy and jealousy.
So true! Envious people show no gratitude because they are focused on what others have that they lack, rather than what they already have.
They do but it is superficial
I'm only 10minutes in and just hit pause and thought this is FANTASTIC! Content's pure gold
Thanks so much!
I'm beginning to wonder if my parents were envious of me and my brother, respectively. We had a far more desirable life than they did as children. We were their second family, no longer young themselves. Our two older sisters were about 10 years older. Family dysfunction comes in many forms. And each child has varying issues to sort out, depending on how each parent interacted with each child. The belief that all children are treated the same is the favored myth.
There was a case of chimps in captivity, where on a birthday of one chimp, the people gave only him treats (bananas,etc). When he went together again with the rest of chimps, they mutilated him (ripping his fingers, penis, etc).
I'd say envy is about the feeling of unfairness, but that requires a sort of morality.
And.. I have 2 semi-stray cats in the backyard, and one of them is eating too slowly while the other takes advantage and quickly eats his food. At first this slower cat seems fine with eating enough, but after a few hours, he goes to the other cat and starts fighting to kick him out (of his territory).
I can't say for sure that this is related to the meals a few hours earlier (like: "I wish I eat more now, but I don't have any food left. Oh I remember what happened to my food! He ate it!"). Its possible that the territorial instinct takes care of this problem without any need of morality/mental representations (mental capacity).
Don, this is a brilliant lecture on envy and jealousy! Thank you! (Your diction is also excellent, by the way. I tend to speak fast, but am learning pointers from watching you lecture online.) First, the distinction between envy and jealousy is very useful (you “turned up the power of the microscope” as I heard you say in a prior lecture ). Second, the idea that the experience of jealousy may not be do much about object loss but, rather, a blow to one’s narcissism just added depth to what had been,’in my view, simply a cliche (namely that jealousy is simply fear of being abandoned; we don’t need psychology to tell us that). Finally, the link between (a) consumer capitalism and (b) the social phenomenon of oral regression (stimulated by the latter) sheds light not only on why the current political leaders who cater to the .001 percent remain in power but also, on what I perceive to be, the cultural phenomenon of the increasing inability for individuals to display capacity for concern. I think the equation in this respect is as follows: consumer capitalism + oral regression + technology that favours narcissism = the regrettable state of world affairs.
Yes, exactly!
I think yes, but the NV or whatever is not borrowed, it is induced and the person who induces it does not want it back
Yes, we do. Thanks so much.
Brilliant!!
Dr. Carveth, your Kleinian analysis & Psychodynamics of Envy has been extremely fulfilling. At the same time, it is difficult to understand the defences around fantasies of envy outside analysis room.
And V is grounded in a fantasy of lack. The key therapeutic activity is to deconstruct this fantasy
@@doncarveth Right Sir. This is what we have to work through in analysis sessions. Thanks for your reciprocation Dr. Carveth🙏🤗
Find yourself a girlfriend and watch what surfaces, once into the relationship. 😁
Thanks for a great lecure about envy. I got some new thaughts when I heard your comments: When I see someone having a quality I want, it can trigger something positive but also negative. Is it possible that the hate trigger a negative super ego that tells me that I am not allowed to hate. Then I get guilt which make me deserve punishment and uncouns. prevent myself to do an effort in the direction of this ideal?
So, I have to accept my my hate to avoid destructive selfsabotage BEFORE I practice grattitude.
( Please excuse my english)
That’s right. But when we say, we must except our hate, we mean the feelings of hate, not hateful actions.
1-Dr carveth as a sociologist, was your academic training in sociology beneficial in your psychoanalytic work with patients?
2- as a psychology undergraduate if i specialized in clinical psychology and entered psychoanalytic training i would be interested in researching the Oedipus complex and authoring a thorough book on the concept across psychoanalytic theorists from freud to lacan , klein and fairbairn , is that topic worth investigation?
Yes, worthwhile. Check out the video lecture. I did on the Oedipus complex per se.
@@doncarveth i already watched the video , thank for your consistent guidance
Hi Don - thanks for sharing your insights on Envy. Do you have any reference suggestions that succinctly explore these contemporary views of Klein's envy? Particularly in terms of the envy related to the withholding object etc. Any would be appreciated. Thanks again, really enjoying your videos!
You can’t do better than Melanie Klein’s own essay on “Envy and gratitude.“
Thank you for this presentation!
When you speak here about the direction of hostility in instances of (perceived or real) infidelity I think of Hamadryas baboons. Who, after they have battled other herds, will seek out the females from their own herd’s ‘harem ‘ who strayed during fray and punish them. I guess for not remaining loyal. Its interesting to me that the hostility is not only directed to other herd males who could (and seek to) take them. Just a thought..
So that one type of man is like a baboon, attacking the unfaithful female. What species do those men who attack the rival male resemble?
That’s an interesting question to think about. I have the feeling (and I certainly don’t know) that in the animal kingdom that in most species males would seek to eliminate (therefore direct their hostility to) the other male ...to ensure their own genetic survival ? Which could make the “Baboon logic” some how higher order... I can’t believe I’m saying that!! 😂 Perhaps it says more about me than it does about nature... but the Baboons at least (bizarrely) “know” the female might have a say and seek to stop her. Where as in other species this might be less considered..
What this means for humans who have the capacity to turn hostility into communication in not sure... .... of the two types of males ... who’s side would you lean more towards?
I should have said the capacity to turn hostility AND desire into meaningful communication!
Kitty Gee well put.
@@kittygee401 Yes it does !
Thank you Don, I appreciate your lectures and this one also. If I may describe this lecture: it was composed of three basic sections. First was the discussion of envy as lack, with the exception of constructive envy and the distinction between the feminine position and the castration complex. Then, was a discussion of the social-historical and institutional setting which was prefaced by a discussion of Othello. In this section, I thought that a deeper understanding of autonomy and freedom should be addressed, otherwise, the scripts of custom and institutions are overdetermining of our emotions and behavior. Why is there a social requirement to live in couples and why is there gender discrimination? What is your take on gender (feminine) discrimination? Lastly, you included a discussion of male penis envy and other kinds of envy, but homosexual desire you did did not address.
Fred, I agree we have a certain potential autonomy from social determinism. I think discrimination against women is grounded in male fear of the powerful, pre-Oedipal mother. The topic of homosexual desire is, of course, very complex.
Fred Welf that is more or less the way Freud and the early analysts viewed it. But over the last few decades this is seen as hetero sexist. Mini pointto biological factors instead of psychological ones. Many have lost interest in the question of causation focussing instead on whatever obstacles may exist to fulfilment in whatever orientation.
@@doncarveth Yep pretty much her standing over brooding the child who is quickly ahead of her in every respect and shows her fears and weaknesses , must be reactively curbed ( frowned upon) see the Buddha and Gro Ma
My Final commentaries on Karen Horney's incredible tour de force about neurosis :
www.amazon.co.uk/Neurosis-Human-Growth-Self-Realization-Self-realization/dp/0393307751/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Karen+horney&link_code=qs&qid=1584184226&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-1
I have just finished it and recovered from a bad cold, YES my position hasn't changed much she intuitively had her finger on the pulse of modern man ( woman) , NEUROSIS IS THAT DANGEROUS!
It is threatening in the collective mind to wipe us out simply for the effect that the parasitic of false self has , can be best seen in the wave of unholy madness generated at a football match or with the rise of Nazis as storm troopers stomped on anything in their way and their bel;oved führer .
With it's imagined status and desire for glory is completely pseudo yet because its machinations began so early on it feels genuine to most people , it is entirely parasitic!
What do you mean, I am a , da , di da etc , not stopping to think of the absurdity of their positions, it is how most people function most of the time in so called ( normal) neurotic society .
Her other theoretical points are extremely useful too, ie pride is actually formed early on in movement ie it is entirely neurotic , the self glory and reflex to feel good about this form of doing a partial success but a bad fit non the less ie i missed the mark but it doesn't f..matter , well of course it matters , then wham down comes the dictate from the powerful superego to squash the self again into submission, reactive self-hate being the keynote, the mirror image of the imagined glorious being that the poor soul if trying to resurrect the whole time.
The self-confessed sadist who has spent his life torturing others but shows no actual remorse, I was just doing my job he says lamely, like the hangman. My point being that to some extent civilized living has allowed and encouraged a terrible thing the fusion of the real with the counterfeit, the fusion of the false with genuine and the lie as Scott Peck said goes on and on , " children of the lie" he called such people who swear black is white no matter what, the trial of HW is a classic in this respect, his denial so power full that to admit to what he did would be too great an insult to the whole Hollywood scene, yes he is a scapegoat but a very sad and pathetic one.
It is compulsive or reactively fused with the true self often a more ponderous affair of reaching out sensing, touchin, tasting and smelling ie is this good for me, or isn't it and on what level.
Hope my thoughts are somehow use full to those who are sincere in their inner journeying,
God bless and I wish .....no better not R
PS hope you don't mind Don have commented on some of youre students comments many seem not to have really understood the jist of Karens work, i hesitate however as she did to launch into Freud the founder of psychoanalysis only to agree with her , I think he was essentially a bottom up interpreter , it seems obvious from his marriage that he was somewhat sexually frustrated and sort through his work with children to elucidate why this was , although this is a very quick analysis, he did have some remarkable ideas that have acted as pointers to this incredible movement.
I wonder. Way we keep using the term "object" insted of "parent" ...(•‿•)
I mean, is there in it also, a cultural fear of blaiming the care taker ?
The parent relationship is only the first, after that one are many more, typically, and can not be perceived as a parental figure, unless in psychoanalysis.
What are your thoughts on shame in relation to envy?
You mentioned in this video Klein's statement on envy referring to a person's lack of something and envying the other for having it. Shame would be a person's lack of something and imagining the other seeing that and rejecting me for it.
I feel there is a connection between the two. If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say shame would combine with fear (of rejection), while envy would combine with agression. Underlying, both would be about a desire to be a person without such a lack, but envy would solve that problem by destroying the good of the other, while shame would solve that problem by hiding the bad in the self.
Anyway, just thinking out loud here.
I wonder if a any psychoanalyst has written anything on their relation.
I think you have stated their relationship very well. I don’t recall reading anyone who covers this particular point, but there may be. I’m not sure what you mean by a PNY psychoanalyst? I think shame and envy go together as both occur in the paranoid -schizoid position.
Don Carveth I apologize, I made a typo. ‘Pny psychoanalyst’ should have been ‘any psychoanalyst’.
@@ingurzimmermann2024 Jealousy i prepsume a development in transitional object shift from the original of envy ie projected into the object as something to possess until or hopefully the actual Mother shows up , which of course she often doesn't
The truth is that little girls notice that little boys and girls have anaromical differences. I don’t know what little boys think. Why is there never discussions on what little boys think?
Freud certainly had ideas about what little boys think: that little girls have been castrated. So Freud believed.
And this stands as contemporary belief?@@doncarveth My belief is that small boy and small girl siblings that are dressed according to their sex are treated mostly the same in early childhood. Typically, very young boy and girl children likely bathed together, as I and my 1.5 yr older brother were. Kids only notice that girls and boys are built differently. No big deal. It may be different for children who had no opposite sex sibling - have such sibling pairings been researched? Or perhaps little boys thought that the vaginas of little girls would make their penises disappear. But only if they understood how sex was performed - I didn't learn about that until I was around seven. I challenge Freud's penis hypothesis. At what age did he believe boys were when they believed females were castrated? There are too many open ended questions here for me to take Freudian thought seriously.
How can anyone/everyone assume that the honorable Freud was correct without contemporary data collection?
Freud‘s ideas about childhood development are very questionable, but the clinical reality is that envy is real, and sometimes takes the form of penis envy. I worked with a woman who is several years hid the fact that she had begun menstruating, she was so ashamed of being a female.
I don't deny that envy exists, yet, a woman who was ashamed of her femaleness and was embarrassed about menstruating in no way implies that she wanted a penis. I believe that if I were the analyst I would have dug deeper. I suggest that she had serious mother issues. Or some family dysfunction. I would have explored the family dynamics and asked about each sibling in her family, including her father, etc., etc. See, too many analysts fall back on ill formed Freudian theory. She is someone that someone ought to do a follow up on. I'd love to know if this is a woman that got better.@@doncarveth
As an older child, I was with a close, same age female friend and neighbor. We were on the same swimming team and when we returned to her house she discovered that her period had arrived. She was joyful and happy. She had a good relationship with her mother, being the only child, and her mother being a school teacher - home-ec, as I recall. She was eager to giver her mother the good news. I, on the other hand had a poor relationship with my mother. When I first got my period, my mom, was sitting outdoors with another neighborhood lady having coffee. I shyly went outside and discreetly told my mom the news. I did not happily announce it to the ladies having coffee; I did not have joyful feelings, nor bad or ominous feelings, either. To me, it symbolized that childhood was over, nothing else. Later, when much older, I wondered why Mary Kay and I had very different reactions, yet I didn't dwell on our differences. Now that I think about this topic, it would be an interesting subject to research. My guess is that we could learn much about
mother-daughter relationships at a critical age of blossoming sexuality. Is anyone looking into the Freudian penis envy hypothesis these days??
To finish my thought about your former patient - what if she were simply embarrassed to share such private, personal information with you, a man? This seems perfectly plausible to me. How old was she at that time of your work together?
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I'm very tired of hearing about classical Freudean Theory. Even Melanie Kleine was born in the 1870s. We are still living according to the Victorian culture as far as traditional psychoanalysis goes.
Where are analysts born after WW2. New blood is what is needed. Psychoanalysis has been practiced for the last 100 years. It needs fresh eyes.
No one is attempting to encourage newer thinking using more varied theories than Don Carveth, yet there are miles to go.
I would be encouraged only if successful analysands spoke out on the resolution of their personal analysis. There are none!
Look how old most of these videos are on all manner of topics in psychoanalysis. Most Freudian. The thinking is all over the map.
There is no cohesion, anywhere. The world itself is chaotic. How will people survive with the mental health industry in shambles, to say nothing about the world economy.
Psychoanalytic thinking needs less laborious treatment since no one is getting well. It's all theory and supposition.
Do I sound frustrated? I want to be shown that psychoanalysis is viable. It is not.
I beg to disagree. My patients get better.
Better is wonderful, however, it's not a cure. I'm not seeking perfection. Why are there not any videos (anywhere, online) of former patients willing to discuss pros and cons of their analyses. Will someone interview a few analysands so we can understand what qualifies as better - such as, how many different aspects of their lives have changed, permanently, what could not be changed, and how much time was committed to get the results achieved.
To your credit, Don, you are one of the minority who is capable of relating and treating your patients on a sensitive, empathic, intelligent basis. You appear to be open minded and a capable of going with the flow of the transference relationship as it develops, or when it begins to develop. Society needs/requires more Don Carveths'. @@doncarveth Obviously, I have great respect for you. I understand the multiple complexities of psychoanalysis; sometimes I believe its been highjacked by early Psychoanalysts, who perpetuate Freudian thinking, some of which seems to be nonsensical, or far more complex than necessary. Opposing psychoanalytical theories are categorically rejected by most whom seem to hold the control and power over too many institutions or training societies and schools. At least this is how it seems to me, rightly or wrongly.
Why must traditional psychoanalysis feel/believe that all forms of mental illness are treatable? Perhaps, break up forms of treatment to those who are doing ongoing research in specific areas of mental dysfunction. Or pretest interested clients seeking help, then evaluate and place accordingly. Better coordination is necessary, but there seems to be no unification, only the maintenance of varying turfs. I think this is what frustrates me most. Different schools with different treatment modalities and theories cannot, will not, attempt to work together. There is collective stagnation. You, yourself, have done your best to break the mold.
Thank you, but I followed all of the revisionist schoolss and found them superficial, and eventually turned back to the Gold of Freud’s insights into guilt, moral masochism, and the hostile super ego. Often what is old is far better than what is new.
@@doncarveth Thank You for openly sharing this insight and Your rich experience. Initially I read Freud in Serbian, and fortunately I am now able to read it in German. There are so many layers in his ideas and concepts. I am amazed every time I get back to his writings and I am doing it frequently.