Great Bay Temple, Easier Than You Remember - Dungeon Design In Zelda (Majora's Mask)
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- The third dungeon in Majora's Mask has a horrible reputation for its difficulty. However, if we're able to look past that you may see how it builds on what we've learned up until know, and presents some really cool puzzles. Let's take a closer look.
Special thanks to RMFH for providing the Majora’s Mask 3D footage of the boss fight!
0:00 - Intro
0:45 - Before The Dungeon
8:43 - Dungeon Progression
22:19 - The Dungeon Boss - Ігри
Those seagulls just waiting on the Zora to die make me no longer feel bad about shooting them in BotW
They’re just circling him like hungry vultures.
Also since I live near a coast, I can confirm that Seagulls are basically the worst.
True tho If I’m paragliding somewhere I just snipe whatever bird I see
@@CaptBurgersonSeagulls are basically sea Pigeons, which means they are winged sea rats. Good thing I live on the hills of the coast city, not near the beach.
Good vid, I love swimming as a Zora in this game.
An alternate way to fight Wart is by using Bombs and the Deku Mask. Throw the bombs to separate the lil' eggies, and then put on the deku mask and spam your spin attack to erase them from existence. You cannot get hurt by the eggs (or even Wart's rush attacks in the second phase) while spinning. This is especially useful if you ever plan to do a three heart run like I did.
1000% correct about the 3ds boss fight. It wasn’t nearly as good as the OG. I was getting frustrated while recording that 😂 Great video dude. More peeps NEED to find your channel.
Thank you a ton for recording that btw!! Obvs my off screen recording for some of those bits just doesn’t look as good as what you were able to get.
I appreciate the idea of introducing a second phase all done underwater, but why did every boss have to have a big ol' eyeball for a weak point? Does Nintendo think we're stupid?
I find both fights frustrating honestly.
I always get lost in the Great Bay, but it feels so good to master the Zora's swimming and narrowly but perfectly swim through the pipes at top speed. So even though I always forget its layout, I still always love the Great Bay Temple.
Oh yeah, the game with actually threatening regional phenomena, engaging storylines, well written dialogues, memorable characters and genius dungeon design.
Anyways, Great bay temple always felt like an apology for the Water temple. It fixed most of its frustrating elements (changing the water level, equiping the iron boots, waiting for Link to either sink or surface and overwhelming complexity) while doubling down on what worked and offering that space awareness challenge that most Zelda fans crave. In order to navigate the dungeon, the player is asked to truly understand how it works and plan their route carefully. Truly a masterclass in dungeon design.
Personally I didn’t have too much difficulty with this temple. Both versions.
In my opinion, I think the team behind MM knew about the lack of navigation from the water temple and fixed it in the great bay temple. The way I see it, is that had the pipes not been colored it would’ve been a little bit more difficult. But not like the water temple, as the player still could navigate/follow the pipes.
Fun fact: I didn’t know this for a long time but Tatl and Tael = Tattletale
Idk if anyone has commented this but the reason the music in this temple gives off such an easy feeling is because the song has a repeating 3-note melody that never ceases. But on that part that you mentioned, there is a 5-note melody layered on top that does not sync perfectly, obviously because 3 and 5 are completely diff numbers that also do not divide equally (like 3 and 6 or 3 and 9 would). So the slightly off-beat melodies give that feeling 😊
I'm amazed by the creators of the MM temples. They're so intricately designed. Great Bay is my fave.
such a great video! btw, you can get the map first by hook shoting onto the chest.
OH MY GOSH the music in this dungeon!!! The way you describe it as akin to motion sickness is perfect. I've never been able to give the feeling words in my brain, but you did it justice! I have to say, at first I wasn't sure I agreed with you about the 3D remakes ruining the games, but with all the things you've pointed out about them so far, especially the swimming in this one and the ice blocks, I'm leaning toward your opinion! If Nintendo does release these games on the Switch, I sincerely hope they release the originals and not the 3D ones!
.........George?? Yes. George. George looks like beef jerky.
Also.....FROGFROGFROGFORGOFOROOGOROOROOFORORFOORFROOOOOOG?
Frog??
Aha glad I could articulate that feeling properly. Honestly I had to ruminate on it for some time, so I just sat with my headphones on, eyes closed, and the song on repeat for a while to try and really get the feeling. And yeah that’s what I came up with haha.
The 3DS changes here... yeah this section of the game probably has it the worst, apart from the next boss fight, but more on that next time. I agree though. The original is fantastic and deserves the love.
Ocarina of Time 3D is good and very faithful. The problem with Majora's Mask 3D is that the director for the original hated the game and wanted to use the 3DS version as an opportunity to "fix" it.
Also, not sure if this comment was written before they released, but the original Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask are on NSO.
These comments are from before N64 games were made available on NSO, indeed
5:29 I love the clips of zora link rocking out on the side while you gush about his gameplay mechanics lmao
Burgerborgerburger 🍔 Another great video, man! Idk why, but I just loved this one. I feel like you put some more character into the narration for this one and it was really entertaining!! Your excitement over the swimming made me laugh out loud 😂 Your analysis was once again spot on and thorough, and the attention given to the music again was awesome 👍🏼 I feel like you had fun with this one, and even though it took you longer than you wanted it was definitely worth the wait!! Very excited for the next one 😊
The next one should be great! So glad you liked this one too. Your comments give me life.
Totally agree.
I love this one! What really hung me up on it was the room where you have to freeze the octorocks cuz I just had no idea what to do lol
I absolutely love the intro Capt 😝😝😝
I enjoyed this very much!
I enjoy you very much
This temple was a walk in the park for me. Just follow the pipes.
Great Bay Temple really is easy to navigate. Just be methodical, work top to bottom and explore each room before switching the current in the other direction. It also literally has pipes leading you to where the water is pumping. And if you happened to skip a room, then just follow the pipe you see that's not actively pumping water. Easy peasy. The only difficult thing for me was collecting all the stray fairies but I still got it done lol
11:49 - I'm no expert either, but I know what this is: tritones. They're notes exactly 6 semitones (3 whole tones) apart. That sound interval doesn't occur in nature, so they sound really alien and bad to us. They're used in music whenever the composer wants us to feel uncomfortable.
Good job on the new video
I always use the zoras boomerang for the big eye... you just drop a lot of eyes in one go that the returning boomerang can kill.
Great Bay temple is definitely in my top 5 favorite dungeons.
this is my favourite temple from any zelda game
The swimming mechanics as a Zora was so much fun! The 3DS didn’t do it justice. I’ve never played a game with anything like it
I've been binging on this series of videos and am really enjoying what your doing here! Really curious to hear what you have to say about Stone Tower Temple next ^_^
Also, really... what happened with the remake?As someone who's favorite Zelda game is the original MM, playing through the remake with all the changes was such a bummer!
Thanks for such a nice comment! Stone Tower video coming on Friday!
So many things I think went wrong with that remake, but I’ll be touching on the subject in the next video as I conclude the game.
Actually it was stated in an interview. Aonuma hated the original Majora's Mask and he was disappointed in his work. He originally didn't want to do the remake, but Miyamoto forced him, so he reluctantly made it and used it as an opportunity to "fix" what he felt was a bad game.
@hist150project5 I disagree with some of the criticisms of the 3DS remake. The Twinmold boss fight was.an improvement over the original, although I think they have the red Twinmold too much health. But there.was.nothing tonthe original MM Twinmold fight. The centipedes don't even attack you, and the giant mask makes the fight a cakewalk, albeit very cool.
10:30 I mean, most things are easier when you know what you're doing. I also think the music contributes because that repeating synth bit keeps you on edge basically the whole time. Also every place looks the same.
I love this dungeon ~
I never got why people always call complex and difficult dungeons bad. There's nothing wrong with challenge, and it makes it much more satisfying to beat. If every dungeon was as easy as the Deku Tree it wouldn't be fun
I bought the 3ds remake on day one, on day two I got to the Great bay, on day three I was returning the game.
I would not be surprised to randomly find out you're a 100% glitchless speedrunner with some of these tips for getting things fast and easy.
blowing my mind here my dude
I do love 100% runs but I am awful at speed runs 😂
@@CaptBurgerson Same honestly, the pressure of trying to be that fast is not something I'm capable of handling.
I know you probably already know this but... you can get the map by hooking into the treasure chest
i always wanted to leave explore the large water room with both the red and yellow active so that the water wheel aint moving. but alas.
I never got pass this point because I'm terrified of the like likes
Frog 2: The Return of the Gekko.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to say something about the dungeon, huh? Honestly, I find both the Water Temple and Great Bay Temple to be different flavours of painful. I like the design of Great Bay Temple since it's unlike any other dungeon we've seen up to this point, and I like how ice arrows were given a greater purpose than in Ocarina of Time, but that's about where my praises for this place end. The music, while fitting, begins to drone on and on very quickly, especially considering how long you'll most likely spend in this place. Despite how fun Zora Link's swimming is in the original N64 version, I found it even more unwieldy than usual in the face of strong currents. When I wasn't getting sucked down the wrong passageways, I'd find myself falling off of platforms into the water and having to climb all the way back up to create more ice platforms. I spent 2 whole in-game days in this place, and the longer I played, the more exhausted I got, which led to me making more and more mistakes, creating a vicious cycle of tedium and agony.
I suppose if there's any consolation, I found George to be a relatively simple and straightforward boss. With that said, coming right after the fantastic bosses that were Odolwa and Goht, I found George to be underwhelming, if not outright disappointing in comparison. In that regard, it's much like the Water Temple where the temple itself is complex but the boss is surprisingly easy. Honestly though, after everything I went through to reach him, I was just glad the boss was simple as it meant I could get the temple over and done with even quicker. As far as aesthetics go, while George looks great in artwork (and has a far more interesting design than Morpha), his N64 model does look pretty rough, and I can't take his 3DS model seriously because of the giant eyeball in his mouth. It looks so dumb that it honestly brings down an otherwise cool redesign. My memories of the 3DS version are hazy at best, but I think having to fight George in Majora's Mask 3D was what caused me put the game down, never to touch it again until I played through the N64 original this year.
I don't really have much more to say about this place. My memories of playing through this temple all just blend together into a stew of suffering. Easily the weakest temple in the game for me, and I'm sure many others as well, but at least its redeeming qualities stood out to me this time.
I love this dungeon, something about Zelda water dungeons are always great. Great Bay and Lakebed are two of my favorite dungeons in the series. What I really wanna rant about though is the boss fight. For my first playthrough of this game I played the 3ds version, and I absolutely HATED this fight. I also found it kind of lame how, in the dungeon itself, there were blue sparkling particles where you needed to shoot the ice arrows. When I later got a copy on N64, I truly fell in love with the dungeon. The swimming was actually fun, the boss fight didnt make me want to rip my hair out, and the puzzles respected my intelligence. I wish the 3ds remake of majoras mask was as good as the ocarina of time remake.
I always felt like this part of the game was the 'mid-way point of the game' and especially in terms of the difficulty. The amount of things you have to do before even accessing this Temple seems like a lot at this point of the game and that's If you decide to do the optional stuff. Getting your horse back from Romani Ranch is an emotional climax as I remember when I first played this game when I was like 8-years old, I thought when the Skull Kid/Majora said something along the lines of 'getting rid of the horse' meant that he actually killed Epona so I immediately found this game very intense emotionally. Not sure how Epona ever escaped that first area after falling down that trippy drop? (game logic I guess)
Another side point, The Beaver Race is really useful for another bottle but quite infuriating on the 2nd Race in particular but before you can even reach that area, however, you need to get the hook shot before you can even attempt that without obvious hacks or whatever so I kind of felt that they should have made the beaver race more accessible to reach as it is only really this area that empty bottles seem to be used the most for a specific game quest objective, I think (minor criticism). Collecting the eggs by going to Pinnacle Rock and the Pirates Fortress were testing in itself in my opinion and it was always a good idea to have plenty empty bottles handy to save trips back and forth to the scientist's lab. The scene where the eggs hatch and form musical quaver notes (I think in the US you call them 8th-notes?) as someone who loved music from a young age I thought that was a really cool touch, it just made the music seem so magical. In contrast to the 'New Wave Bossa Nova Song,' the soundtrack for Great Bay is so bleak which fits so well with the cursed unnatural gloopy-looking warm water and Lulu losing her eggs and pirates having stole some of them. I think you're right with the instrumentation, there are parts that sound theremin-like. I think there might also be a pun here but there is obvious 'Musical Easter Eggs' in the Zora Hall which are also really nice touches.
The music in The Great Bay Temple is disorientating and I totally get what you mean by the feeling of 'motion-sickness' and it's really impressive that, that idea is communicated in the soundtrack of a fairly popular game franchise at the time. The 'mechanical-like' sounds fit really well with the industrial/water themed Temple. To be absolutely honest, I actually find this temple more difficult than The Water Temple from Ocarina of Time. The water currants used to confuse me, I probably didn't realise that 'colour-coding' was even a thing at this point so I just saw some fantastically coloured pipes haha, the mini-boss I found surprisingly difficult with all the bubbles guarding it then it started charging randomly, finding a way to reach the 'red switch' in the first main room didn't seem obvious at all to me, the room with the see-saws had me stumped for a while but got there eventually and then there's Gyorg... (I played the N64 Version just to make it clear) Wow, that boss topped the most difficult boss I had ever faced in Zelda Games at this point - topped all of Ocarina of Time bosses in my opinion and how on earth they could have made that boss fight worse in the 3DS Remake blows my mind. I have never played the 3DS Version but the footage I've seen of the game via UA-cam, I don't know why anyone who has played the N64 Version would put themselves through that and I totally get your frustration - it also gives me a lot of concerns if they ever release Majora's Mask for the Switch in this 35th Zelda Anniversary.
Great comments as always!
I share you’re concerns for sure. If the game were to come to switch, then almost certainly Nintendo would opt for the 3DS version and upscale that. Unfortunately that means we’d likely be saddled with the changes- for the worse. But who knows, maybe we’ll get lucky and it’ll simply be a 3D all stars type of deal instead. We’ll see.
@@CaptBurgerson Thanks, I love how my comments have somehow turned into some kind of psychoanalysis of the thoughts and feelings I had as a kid when playing this game but I hope they are shared by other fans. There is so much emotion, heartache and suffering in Majora's Mask and it's just so unique as a Zelda Game... Yeah, I hope Nintendo do something similar with the Zelda Games like what they did with the Mario Games but who knows.
TIL they aren't called Eighth Notes outside of the US
In the UK, we call them 'quavers' but even if you said 'eighth notes' we would still understand, it's just a different way of saying a note value.
I like the deli mask. Deluxe link is my favorite form of link.
*deku 🙄
Why wasn’t this recorded on Majora’s Mask 3D? :) Ik how much you love that remake
I see how it is 😂
The fuckips on Zora transformation and the Twinmold fight are why I don't bother with the 3DS version. Which sucks because the rest is dope.
Oh, and the giant eyeballs on all the bosses. Just... why?
17:33 I collected this chest with the hook before getting the ice arrows
Unfortunately ive only played the 3ds version of Majora's Mask so the entire great bay area is the bane of my existence, i dread the great bay temple every playthrough
💙
The 3DS killed the swimming, wow!
GEORGE!
The best Dungeon in all of 3D Zelda
I'm one of those who actually like the 3DS iteration of Gyorg more. I don't find it counterintuitive at all, even though the eyeball is prety useless in the first phase.
This one and the next are the ones which I like more on 3DS than N64
Update: I'm replaying Majora's Mask 3D and I've just fought Gyorg twice. I changed my mind, the underwater phase is cumbersome and I hate it
Twinmold on the 3ds is much worse imo.
It had a great concept. Having to fight the first phase without the giants mask and getting it mid fight was a great idea to make it more interesting. The problem is the gaints mask part is tedious and goes on way too long. If you only had to damage it once as giant link, I'd call 3DS twinmold a straight improvement over the n64 version, but as it stands its another example of why I prefer the n64 version of the game.
Okay - as a non-gamer im going to defend the swimming in the remake. I played MM on N64. I could.not.swim. You found it freeing - I just swam into walls. I wasn't able to beat the game at all until the remake.
I play it up for the joke a bit so in hindsight I don’t feel I explained my criticism well enough in the video.
I think adding two swim speed options is a good thing! It adds greater control, and as you say with your experience benefited from it.
The issue isn’t introducing slower swimming inherently, it’s that being traded off for faster swimming being tied to magic consumption without the world design compensating for it.
Hindsight again, I didn’t properly explain the issue in the video, my b
@@CaptBurgerson @CaptBurgerson I get it -my kid who plays also didn't get it until I'd run my Zora into a wall 3 or 4 times by accident trying to swim fast that he really understood the issue for those of us without the "gamer gene".
It's a fun analysis anyway.
I wish grezzo didn’t add the eyeball weak point.
I’m so sick of everyone throwing hate at the altered Zora swimming in the remake. It was clearly done to streamline the controls. I dunno about you, but when I play the original game I’m constantly bumping into things when I swim around underwater in the narrow areas of the Pirate’s Fortress and the temple. In the remake I don’t have that issue, I can move around smoothly with no issue. And as for the magic requirement for going faster…
USE CHATEAU ROMANI!
I will admit, I play it for jokes but didn’t articulate the issue as well as I could have when I made the video. But the issue isn’t that they added slower swimming necessarily. The ideal situation would be allowing players to toggle between the two versions seamlessly and without the use of magic power. The associated forcefield / magic effect horribly obstructs vision.
Chateau romani works, sure, IF you’ve done a side quest to unlock it before getting this far in the main story. But it’s a band-aid for an issue that should be there to begin with
@@CaptBurgerson That’s fair, but how exactly would such a toggle be implemented? There’s only so many buttons on the 3DS, the only way I can see it work is if it was in the options menu alongside the L-Targeting styles. Perhaps a future remake for a modern system could alleviate the issue by mapping it to one of the z buttons?
I think it honestly could be as simple as the difference between tapping A or holding down A to swim faster. That sort of thing
Pure idiocy.
Alright I saw all of OOT Dungeon videos and the last two MM Dungeon videos and something I took notice that you never done is you don't know that you can also You The Treasure Chests as A Hookshot Target
Can you get Dungeon Map before The Compass with this trick in this dungeon
That certainly gets mentioned in the stone tower video at the very least because it is mandatory to do in that dungeon haha
I do agree with you about The Zora Link's nerfed Swimming mechanics everything else I don't agree with you about
I hated the Gyorg battle in the original version because of always getting eaten by the bastard
I'm indifferent on the other personal dislikes you have about the 3ds ver.
I can use the stone mask to get around the pirate fortress?
I CAN USE THE STONE MASK TO GET AROUND THE PIRATE FORTRESS?!?!
I wish I had picked that up earlier on in the game...
Maybe this is just me, but I was never the biggest fan of dungeons. I know this sounds sacrilegious, but I liked WW because it was a great game for exploring. Also, I like botw for obviously, being an amazing exploration game as well as building the lore of the series.
You just may like Majora’s Mask then. The dungeons are great, but there’s only four. The bulk of the game is exploring the world and doing side quests. It’s great.
@@CaptBurgerson I have the game, and desperately want to play it, but I am forcing myself to beat ocarina of time. I have them both on virtual console, courtesy of my (underrated) Wii U. My friend said those were the games i would need to play to become an actual fan of the series. As they were made before I was born, this is my first chance. (I’m 14)
@@joelcomer well they are definitely great recommendations but I don’t like the “true fans” gatekeeping haha. Definitely worth a play though! Hopefully you enjoy them!
Well, my friend was very chill he wasn’t really like that, lol he is in his 20’s and played them growing up he just said they were essential.
mm3d swimming was made for people that hate the slippery ass swimming on the original game
and i will fight and i will die on this hill
Having two swim speeds was a good call to make maneuvering easier. Sure.
Making it cost magic power to swim fast was still awful no matter which was you look at it.
Can’t you just hookshot the map chest though?
Yup, I’m just a dingus
Beating a dead horse, but not only did 3DS ruin the bosses, they ruined swimming as Zora link. On a positive note this is my 2nd fav Zelda dungeon
mm3d fixed the problem with the magic arrows in the inventory.
Yeah, but MM3D creates more problems in the wake of its 'fixes' unfortunately.
@@CaptBurgerson oh i agree. i don't like MM3D for the added hand holding and for its overcorrections such as adding cracks in the bombable floors in STT, moving stray fairies that are more obvious such as in woodfall, and changing the level design that hurts spatial reasoning puzzles. the zora moon dungeon was trial and error but simplistic. in MM3D it is difficult for the wrong reasons because dolphin jumps are harder to perform. the pirate's fortress had a nice spatial reasoning puzzle in later versions of MM64. the Japanese 1.0 version had the same shortcut like in the 3DS version. the best changes MM3D made were the inventory qol features, the song of double time, and adding camera controls despite needing a new 3ds or circle pad pro. i also find MM3D has tigher controls and better hit detection but otherwise i cannot defend the unnecessary changes and the design flaws that did not get fixed such as not streamlining elegy of emptiness.
I DID IT! I BEAT TETRA! IN YOUR FACE! HE LOVES ME THE MOSTEST!
Nah this is one of the hardest Zelda dungeons far harder than OOT water temple
Mario 64 nightmare :rofl: so true
Zelda 6 use the same N64 software tool as Mario 64 & Zelda 5
So? They're developed by the same team
Am I the only one who likes the remake more? Ok...I get it
Nothing wrong with liking it, I just personally don’t.
seeing that the Zora swimming in the 3DS is so slow and uninteresting was my biggest disappointment in the remake
another great video. the only thing i have to disagree with is the n64 boss being better than the 3ds one.
while the 3ds one has it's issues, ( gyorg giant eye looks stupid, underwater section isn't that fun) i will take it over the n64 version anyday.
seriosly the first (and second) time i fought n64 gyorg it took me so long to beat him, to a point where by the time the fight ended any enjoyment i got out of the boss was gone and i was just glad the boss was over.
in my own personal opinion, n64 gyorg is one of the worst if not the worst zelda boss i've faced.
or to put it simply. i fucking hate n64 gyorg, i hate him so much that i will never fight that version again, heck the only reason i fought him the 2nd time is because i was introducing the zelda serious to my grandma (she enjoys it by the way) and when i got to mm i wanted to show her it on a tv screen and not the small 3ds screen, so i downloaded the n64 version (because that's the only version you can get) of the game on to my wii u. however i guarantee you that if i could of gotten the 3ds version i would of gotten that one for sure.
Understandable and I’m sorry that was your experience. I’ve never struggled so heavily with the fight myself on N64 so I can only speak of my own experiences. For me it was better but that’s just my own experience.
Cheers buddy. Hope you (and grandma) still found lots to enjoy in the game.
@@CaptBurgerson Cheers buddy. Hope you (and grandma) still found lots to enjoy in the game.
oh we did. in the end while both version might have had their down moments for me (n64=odolwa,gyorg) (3ds=goht,swimming)
mm is still an all time favorite zelda game for me, it has a great story, fun dungeons, gameplay, and other things.i don't regret getting either version of the game.
after all if i didn't like the n64 version than i wouldn't have gotten the 3ds one in the first place.
and hey while i might hate the n64 version of gyorg and think it's one of the worst zelda bosses, i absolutely love the n64 goht boss,.and think it's one of the best bosses.
"Easier than you remember" wow shots fired. I guess that IS what ANYONE who QUIT the hexed creepy pasta MM version at this point of the game would say! 😏🤡
The 3ds remake ruined Odolwa, the 3ds remake ruined Goht, the 3ds ruined Zora link and Gyorg... yeah the 3ds remake didn't do that great a job
I almost forgot but also ruining the Stone tower temple boss
What is with MM and weird boss names no one is sure how to pronounce? 😂 Odolwa? Goht? Gyorg? Lol
At least Twinmold is pretty straightforward. 😂
I’m happy to settle on “Goat” and “George”
Unpopular opinion: I hated the Zora Egg fetch quests because it feels like blatant padding and filler.
Yes you go to new places but the new places aren’t very interesting (one being just a retread of OOT Gerudo Fortress but with Pirates) and the other is just a bunch of eels.
I HATE how they added the dumb eyeballs for idiots or something who couldnt find obvious weak spots.
7:03 a Theramin isn’t that like a spa area
A theramin is an instrument