Stereo Out vs Master Fader - Why the Heck Does Logic Use Both?
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- Опубліковано 29 лют 2024
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Ever wonder why the heck Logic Pro seems to have 2 separate master faders for managing your Project's overall level? Why does Logic provide both a Stereo Out channel strip and Master Fader at the end of the Mixer? There actually is a difference!
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Hey. Love your channel and your content. So this isn't a critique on your amazing work but, this video is kind to Logic's strange output section. I've always had an issue with how the Stereo Out and Master fader work. It's important to realize that the "Master" in Logic is just a volume fader. In PT the Master fader works like an actual console. It is PRE master bus effects. Not post. This is a huge distinction. Mix really loud and you want to push less into your buss compressor and post processing? Pull the Master fader back. Want to push it harder? Push it up. The "Stereo Out" in Logic is really only useful to do custom automated fades or weird "bump the chorus up a db" kind of things. All of which could be done in a different way. This fader should be before the master buss effects. You can do a custom setup for this (by routing all your channels into an Aux, then feeding the Stereo Out) and it works fine. But it's a bit of a pain. I wish There was a way to choose this in Logic. So useless to literally have 2 output faders that literally do the same thing instead of have a function that has benefitted mixers for ages.
Myself and many other long time Logic users do exactly what you said, feeding everything to an Aux before the Stereo Output, and using that Aux as our "2 bus" with our final processing. I only send printed mixes and reference tracks directly to the Stereo Output. Personally, the only use I have for the "Master" is for automated fades, which I could do other ways. I guess I usually ignore it, LOL.
Why would to compare PT to Logic Pro. There's 101 ways to approach your way of doing a task in a daw. They're all wrong except the way that works for you. I wouldn't think of another Daw like PT when trying to listen and learn about this video related to Logic Pro.
The master fader in a DAW controls the overall volume and processing of the entire mix before final output. A stereo bus fader in a DAW controls the overall volume of a stereo mix, affecting the combined left and right channels.
@@guitar.knackshack2210 : It's not so much about that PT does it. It's more that PT emulates a console and console workflow. And there are very good reasons for that. Maybe not for electronic music as much, but definitely for anything else. The master fader controls how much of the mix is driven into the master buss processing. So the sound can be greatly altered. Or not. But it's not the Master fader you would use to fade something out because as you fade, you would be pushing your bus compression and processing less and less as the fade goes on because you're pushing less signal into it. And so, the "Stereo Out" would be where you would do that. They work in tandem. So it makes no sense for both of these faders to do this. 2 volume knobs is redundant. I wish the "Master" fader in Logic could be set to function like this. That's all I'm saying. I'm fully in Logic now and it's the only thing that's stock in PT that I miss. But, not worth going back to PT when I can build it out in Logic.
Also, I'm a UA guy, so I don't monitor through software. Which means I have to balance my mix from Logic with my UA mixer. The Master fader in Logic is perfect for this. The Stereo Out would do the same thing. But I use the Master fader. But that's the tracking stage. In the mixing stage I want the Stereo Out to be pre bus effects and do my fade outs with a gain plug in with automation curve at the end of the chain. Either way, the "Master" fader in Logic is wholly redundant. Useless.
This is great advice. I once spent an agonising hour trying to figure out why my bounced file was so quiet when the Stereo Out (which has the Bounce button - go figure) showed the level was correct. It was because I had adjusted the Master Fader using that awful slider in the Control Bar to turn the volume down while i was creating, rather than simply turning down my speakers. Leave the Master Fader alone OR remember to put it back to unity when you bounce. :-)
I had the same issue. It’s so simple once you know but when you don’t it’s a mind F.
Hey Chris, another great video about the details of Logic Pro X. As a long time (and I mean since the beginning...) Pro Tools user, I have learned so much about Logic from your videos. I hope you keep up the series. Thanks!
EXCELLENT VIDEO Chris. Many Thanks
Thanks so much Chris another great video.
It’s also good to mention that if you’re doing automation and need a classic fade out, you can use the “create a track” feature for that master fader and then apply the automation like you would any other track.
As soon as you choose an automation style, latch etc, the new arrange window track will be automatically created for you.
Great info to know thank you!!! 😊
Super clear lesson bro thank you
The Master fader is only redundant if you use only 1 pair of outputs. If you have many channels going out to a mixer (or summing unit) then it is indeed a Master fader for all the outputs, and doesn't seem redundant at all. It's also a great PANIC fader for when you set up a feedback loop and need to kill all the outputs quickly!
Great overview. 💪🏻👏🏻👍🏻🙏🏻 Must admit I‘ve never used the Master Fader, but often wondered why it‘s there. At least I know know …
Great like always ;) Thanks
Hey Chris, i believe a more common use of the master fader is to deal with how much signal is sent to the compressor without having to edit the automation of individual tracks if there is some on them. The headphone feed to musician is more often done through sends to alternative outputs thusly maintaining the signal to the main output. At least this is how i would do it and have learned it. Thank you anyway for your great videos.
I’ve always wanted to know what the difference was!!!🤔 thanks for this explanation!!!
So the explanation was… there is no difference 😅 Master is there to be just that, master fader
Great video. I'm going through the newbies to ninja series now. I'm getting close to the point with a song where I'd want to use my outboard bus compressor. Is this something I could do by setting the output of the stereo out to my interface using available outputs, and then back in yet another two inputs? Where would this leave the processed signal? Would it route the to master fader, or is the master fader only a fader for the controls discussed in this video and isn't an output? Is there an easier way to do this for a bus compressor for the whole mix? Thanks.
You've been very helpful to me. Thank you!
I do not know the proper channel to make inquiries: I lost some data on an earlier version of a session that I continued to work on. I'd like to try to recover that data without losing all the subsequent work. If I make a copy of this session and then revert it back to the date before I lost the data, will it affect the original file? I'd like to recoup the missing data and add it to the current version.
If I'm asking this information in the wrong place, I apologize. Thank you!
Thanks as this was always confusing to me and you make the best tutorial videos! I was hoping the Master Fader was independent and Logic would allow us to put a plugin like SoundID on it where the final bounce would not be affected. I really wish Logic would add something like this, similar to Cubase's control room or Studio One's Listen Bus.
This channel is priceless for Logic Pro users. Thanks Chris!
Thanks for sharing, was hoping you would talk about setuping plug in slots on the master fader, I have a project an engineer sent and they had both the stereo output and master channel setup with plugins on and have never figured the setting to change it. Currently have a pre stereo out bus setup to allow the same mix options but would be so much easier on the master channel, any help here would be great!
Excellent video as always. A thought re the master fader - if we set the Master Fader to 0dB and everything in the Stereo Output Metered and Mastered to achieve -13dB LUFS ready for streaming, can we simply turn the Master Fader up by 5dB to have a bounce ready for CD (at approx-8dB LUFS)? (Yeah, we know, should we really be mixing/metering/mastering on the fly? But we're hobbyists with a $50 a year recording budget!!!)
everyone else calls it a MASTER BUS
and the master on logic pro is usually called a master level.
let’s say you are mastering your final mix and you’re jamming it loud on your studio monitors and your wife comes in to talk. You can turn the master fader down and have the conversation without affecting your perfect mix.
Then go back to the session and turn the master back up without ruining the mix level you were perfecting.
Yes!! This is what I think it's actually for. But when a studio has a physical control room volume knob (as many interfaces do) then the master fader is basically useless. I rename it "Volume" and use it to balance it with my UA mixer when tracking. Then set it to 0 and never use it again to mix. Cheers.
@@garyjostoneyes. but it’s nice that logic considered those who might not be using an audio interface
@@johnviera3884 : Oh yeah. Totally agree. Must have.
I was gonna ask how you got the Cory Wong sample pack a Logic Pro for the Mac. But you answered it right after. It’s such a bummer they don’t include these to the Mac version out of the box.
but if u send other channels to other outputs how do u bounce if the playback goes to output 1-2 ??? i just bought an ssl console and im having a hard time bouncing the track with all the automations from logic and the mix from my console. would really appreciate if someone could help ?
Very long, but still useful! Thanx
Thanks, I had the master fader wrong, I assumed it was simply adjusting the volume of my speakers, having nothing to do with the bounce.
So, the LUFS meter is only accurate if both Stereo Out and Master are set to zero? I assume if a limiter on Stereo Out is set so the loudest peaks are at 0, then raising either output strip above 0 will cause clipping?
Thank you bro
Thank you!
Seeing the various bounced results was great. It’s clear some people in the comments haven’t had to use VCAs before and don’t realize still what they actually are and why Logic has them. I hope you can let their ignorant comments roll.
I genuinely feel bad that so many people have to learn sound engineering from a DAW.
I’m a full time audio engineer and I teach audio and music production and it’s fun to watch people’s minds get blown when I demonstrate how to input a mic to an aux channel and then route the output of the aux into a standard track so recording level can be adjusted during recording on the fly like we always did to tape (pre-DAW) and still do using consoles- so compressors don’t have to work so hard later. Also for time aligning room mics in real-time by adding the needed milliseconds via an insert, adding high pass eq for vocals and instruments that have low resonant room tone, noise,A/C rumble , mic stand thump caused from drum kit or bass amps, frequency adjustment to assist mic placement choice for things like proximity effect or sculpting mic low end of ribbon mics etc etc and anything that can be eliminated from the track during tracking for better tracks.
There is SO much amazing stuff to be experienced and learned and it’s so cool to see your contributions!
Interesting
Does it work in Atmos the same way ?
Thanks for your work 👍🙏
I believe so!! You still have a master fader with the internal renderer. Because you can still send different outputs regardless of having the internal renderer or not
Can you attach a file with the cory wong loop pack session youmade for Logic, somewhere? Want to check it out but I don't have an ipad
This is only for stereo Projects it doesn't apply to surround projects in surround projects master fader becomes an AUX-type channel instead of a VCA. Both have a dedicated bounce button if you are outputting into stereo or surround
Got an unrelated tech question if you don't mind. Lately I'm having a problem with playback after i record a vocal. The track plays fine and then will just cut to static sound for like 4 seconds and then vocal comes back in. Any suggestions on whats the problem with Logic and how to fix it? I enjoy using Logic but some "basic" things just need to work consistently. Thank you for your insight!
The Master fader controls everything. It can be made into a track and automated. I use this to automate fade outs for the end of a song.
As redundant as the master fader is, having an alias of it at the top of the interface could be handy for turning down the volume temporarily when the mixer is hidden. I have been using logic for more than 15 years and I just saw that for the first time in this video. LOL. Never knew it was there.😆
Take 10 minutes to get to the point . . . the Master fader controls the level of all the output channels.
Useless video or what..
Thanks I won’t watch it
Guess what, in a daw it doesn’t matter if the master is an actual volume fader or if it’s controlled by a vca that does the same thing like in logic(yes, this is EXACTLY why 2 faders.)
If you are too hot on the output, lower the master fader.
UA-cam has become a brain disease.
Thanks for saving me some valuable time.
@@Flunko97just a professional courtesy to you and anyone who reads your comment…dropping master fader for anything other than a music fade out/fade in is bad practice because it goes completely against and ruins the dynamic range you spent so much time building into your mix.
If your mix is too loud that is a consequence of pushing levels too high in the mix and needs to be adjusted in the mix itself, definitely not the master fader.
Hey Chris, I have often wondered what are the dimensions of the room you are filming in (height, width, length). Do you also mix there? I notice what might be a 5.1 setup? or Atmos?
He has an Atmos setup with the iLoud MTMs. I am unsure of the room dimensions, but they look to be smaller than what is recommended (11.5ft by 10ft; for distance between speakers, not the room size). I think anyone can produce in a small room as long as your calibration is right.
@@alex_ayers thanks, I didn't recognize the speakers even though I just watched a couple reviews of them. I would like to know the actual dimensions, and whether this room is actually his mix room. I think anyone can produce in any room, but calibration doesn't fix a shite room.
@@thaddeuscorea right. to my understanding, this is his mix room. I was referring to delay and loudness calibration to compensate for distance between speakers, which can be done with most rooms as long as their room sounds good acoustically.
@@alex_ayers So, I still want to know the actual size of his room, and if this is where he actually mixes. no offense is meant, but, I would like to specifically hear from Chris on that. Regarding rooms and calibration, I understand: delay, loudness, still, MOST rooms do NOT just "sound good acoustically". The idea that these speakers could be calibrated for the room has zero interest for me. I have no assumptions about the room used to film this video. For all I know, this is just where he records and edits video for his channel.
Sort of unrelated, but i added 2 ''sub-masters" to my template, nice for when you want to exclude something from a "master"
Just subscribed
At 4:25 you have the guitar stab track on the far left visible. But its two digits visible. To the left its saying - 1.3 and to the right its saying -12.2. What exactly is the difference between the two? Also at 13:52 if you bounced the stereo would it then exclude the sound of the track you had set to e.g playback 7/8 and so fourth? Great video!
Emf2482 I can answer your question at 4:25 in the video. The Fader knob is set to -1.3 decibels and the -12.2 is how many decibels are being output. Does that make sense? If the -12.2 goes to 1.0 or higher, it turns red and you’re clipping the signal. You can click on the number at any time and it goes “live” again, showing the current output.
Gianni❤
The left figure -1.3 is how far the fader is set below unity gain (0). The right figure -12.2 is the peak level of the audio (the closest it gets to unity) during playback. In this instace the Guitar Stab track has been attenuated by 1.3db resulting in a peak level of -12.2db. If the fader was set back to unity (0) then the peak level of the audio would go up by 1.3db to -10.9db.
thank my man@@gianni1646
thank you!@@cspcreative
Great overview and explanation. Cheers.
#mrchristophertv
I have two auxes acting as additional master faders in my template 😅
As a user of other DAWs I find this just absurd :D :D
Thanks Chris! Maybe someone on here or yourself can answer this… is there a way to control where in the mixer I place my AUX channels? They always seem to show up at the end of the mixer. A little counter productive IMHO
If there was one feature I would love Logic to implement it would be the ability to move tracks around in the mixer window! But you can do a workaround. If you click on the automation button on the mixer aux channel you want to move and choose eg Latch, a new track will automatically be created in the Arrange window. You can then drag this around to where you want it and the mixer will reflect this. You can switch the mixer button back to Read if you don't actually want to write the automation.
@@MonsieurVersatile Wow! Thank you so much for the tip. I’ll give it a try. Really appreciate it
Excellent video, I always wanted to know how to mix traditional '80s porn music.
Hey Chris, Your videos are very informative as usual, but slightly hard to follow sometimes because your viewers can't follow your "TINY WHITE CURSOR". You now where you're moving it to but we can't always tell until it is too late and we have to rewind multiple times to find out. Please enlarge your cursor and give it some "striking color", with an outline so everyone can follow along.
What master fader 😊
Oh my goodness I watched this whole video thinking you had some brilliant insight just for you to explain the painfully obvious. Come on man
Your pathetic
I'm sure your 3 followers appreciate all the hard work you're putting into making videos to help other humans. Keep up the great work.
Skip to 10 minutes for the answer. Sorry Chris :P
Thank you. I was wondering how the answer to this question warrants a 14 minute video?
homeboy waffles lol
I have a mix bus before my stereo output.
`same
Same with me yup
What brand of pc i need to have logic pro?
Apple only I think
Sorry Chris, but your advice "Don't trust the Loudness Meter" is very misleading. You can absolutely trust the Loudness Meter, and what you demonstrate is not a problem of the Loudness Meter, but a "misinterpretation" of a channel strip's signal flow. In Logic, the Audio FX Inserts on a channel strip are always before the Volume Fader, which means the fader changes the level of the signal AFTER the inserts. For example, if you set a brick wall limiter at -2 dBTP on the insert of the Output Channel Strip, then changing the Volume Fader will change that -2 dBTP ceiling. That doesn't mean that you "can't trust that Limiter", you just change the level after the limiter has done its job. So what you demonstrate is the expected behavior.
The short advice would be, leave the Volume Fader of the Output Channel Strip at 0dB, and only use it for fade-ins or fade-outs. If you need to offset the level, insert a Gain plugin before any Meter plug-ins on the insert slots.
About the Master Channel Strip, yes this is a VCA Master Fader of a VCA Group that includes all the Output Channel Strips in your project. Because a typical stereo project only has one output channel strip, this Master Channel Strip is kind of redundant (and often does more harm than good). Rule of thumb, leave it at 0dB and never, ever touch it (always check before any bounce). Of course, for more advanced scenarios, the Master Channel Strip can be quite handy, and when entering the world of Surround and Dolby Atmos, its functionality changes quite a bit.
I go into much more technical "under the Logic hood" details about the Master Channel Strip in my video "Logic Pro X - Master Track Mystery" in my UA-cam channel "MusicTechExplained - the visual approach".
My question is, instead of having 2 master faders - why not have 12? That’ll get everyone jumping all over the shop
Nevet would use logic, Cubase Pro is the ultimate daw
The Stereo Out is the true master fader. the other one should not exist.
First 😊
95 % of the video dealing with the stereo out. But the topic is why both? No answer that makes sense. Like the master fader channel. For me that is absolutely useless. I nearly forgot that it is there. So useless.
Ok. You say it is a final fader before the interface. Almost a VCA fader. But…… a half decent VCA Fader would not leave all the channels inaudible except for one. And frankly said, I do not need that kind of a fader before the interface. In fact it will rob bit depth from the output signal if I bring it down. Much better is an analog volume pot on my interface. Every half decent interface has one by now. And if it doesn’t, get a new one that has an analog volume pot. It will be one of your best investments for a long time. Forget about the Logic master fader nonsense.
The bit depth robbing point he misses totally in this utterly useless video
@@steveshadforth8792 Moving the output fader has no effect on the bit depth of the audio in LP. Perhaps this is a myth hanging over from the early days of DAWs?
@@MonsieurVersatile I meant the main stereo out fader, my bad
@@steveshadforth8792 Same applies. No effect on bit depth.
@@MonsieurVersatile wrong
Whhatever the daw is, never touch the master fader(s) is a golden rule.... I find myself having to repeat that more than I'd like to, but yeah, never, touch, the, master, fader(s). No matter how much of them there is....
This is terrible advice. There are many reasons. Most simple of those is a fade out. On a "real" console, the master fader is before the stereo out effects chain. The fader drives through the bus compressor and post processing so you can adjust the level hitting the processing from all channels at once. The "Master" fader in Logic is literally a useless volume knob.
@@garyjostoneI agree that the above advice is terrible, but the master fader does become quite useful when using multiple outputs. It’s only redundant when using a single output.
@@gitpho: I can see that. But, it's something that I think would be the exception, not the rule. If the multi out thing is needed that can easily be set up. But I find myself having to set up Logic to act like a console and it should already behave like one.
I've been keeping the Stereo Out at 0, and then using master fader (set at 0) as a channel and automating the volume fade out. Seems to work for me. I try to keep the LUFS -11 to -14 then run it thru Loudness Penalty to see how much it will be lowered or raised. Does anybody else do this, or more importantly, am I all jacked up
@garyjostone I won't argue about fading out, it is not something I do, and I feel it is better done with automation than moving the fader... Also, I say that to students that have mixes that clip and then lower the master fader instead of being just a bit sensitive about gain along the way. They have no idea and try to adjust from the end of the chain so yeah, don't touch the master fader.
Saying that this is"terrible" advice is really fun though. Nice one.
I use Logic since the very beginning and I love it, but for me the Master strip is one of the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
First of all is deadly confusing, like your video and many comments here demonstrate.
Second is useless for most (by far most) of the users. Let's be honest, what's the % of people that use several physical outputs and need a common fader to adjust them all?
And third, and for me the most important, they simply lost a chance of doing something MUCH more useful, that is a Control Room strip.
Instead of this silly and useless strip, a control room strip, with plugins available but not affecting at all the mix, would have been a HUGE LOT more useful.
You could eq your room, your headphones (eventually with one of those amazing correction plugins), turn up and down the listening volume even if you don't have your interface knob handy, and all this WITHOUT affecting your mix. To do so you have to create a virtual out in OSX, but then you have lag, so you have to turn on and off... a pain!
Yes, something like Cubase, that I know, use and like REALLY less than Logic. But still, when it's right, it's right.
I love this channel, I love Logic, but in this case I think Apple dropped the egg out of the canister.
Stereo Out 0, Máster 0
What a complete waste of time.