Welding Spider Gears - Why It's A Bad Idea And How To Go Ahead And Do It Anyway. 8.75 Chrysler
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- Опубліковано 17 лют 2023
- It's the oldest and cheapest speed modification in the book, but not without it's down sides and liabilities.
We look at all the various reasons you may not want to make this mod to your rear, and then go step by step to show you how anyone can do it using even the most humble Harbor Freight Flux Core welder.
#classiccar #musclecar #diy #differential #welding
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I know it's cheap and strong but I never had a reason to do it when you can buy a mini spool or a full spool for dirt cheap and save the rear end . before Covid hit you could get a mini spool for 68 bucks and a full spool for under 100 bucks . now there a bit more expensive but still not out of the budget off a week end racer . the last time I looked a full spool for a Ford 9in was starting around $110 to 150 on the high end and a bit cheaper for the mini spool. so if you can save back a bit of money to get a spool why weld .
Points well made, but as we talked about in the previous video, those parts are not available for every rear, only the most common and popular. This is universal and that's why we're showing how to do it.
Sorry if I'm being a bit slow, but how can it turn at all with the gears welded to each other?
I'm looking at the video at 15:06 How can these gears turn now? They are now 1 piece of metal. It looks to me like the input gear is being physically connected to one of the axle gears. What am I missing? I'm obviously misunderstanding the system, but even looking it at, I just don't get it.
How can it turn at all with the gears welded to each other?
I'm looking at the video at 15:06 How can these gears turn now? They are now 1 piece of metal. It looks to me like the input gear is being physically connected to one of the axle gears. What am I missing? I'm obviously misunderstanding the system, but even looking it at, I just don't get it.
@@tarstarkusz Not all the gears are welded together. The gear that connects the driveshaft is not welded, only the gears which connect the half-axles to each other are. A welded differential is the same as having no differential.
@tarstarkusz the inside tire will slip, bounce or the axle will break. Good luck pushing it
In the early 60s, Bill Golden used different diameter tires on an open diff effectively making a sure-grip rear. On the same car, he came up with a rear suspension mod using a swing arm/leaf spring combo that buried the rear bumper and nearly lifted the front tires off the line. Once they discovered his genious, NHRA banned the car. Maverick then went on to build the famed Little Red Wagon and the rest is history.
I think the credit might goto Garlits on that one. Im sure they all did it back in the day.
I have that same MAP torch and those same tin-snips!!!
Props to Uncle Kathy for getting right into the slag-storm to get the shot!
Smear some nozzle gel on whatever you don't want spatter sticking to , BTW .
Also , if you have shop air , get a needle scaler .
They make short work of slag and spatter , along with rust and scale .
Some thin aluminum ( beer can ..) and a couple of hose clamps also work as bearing or shaft protectors when welding or grinding , and these are usually laying about in every shop I have ever been in . Or you can cheat and use soda cans , whatever gets you by .
great idea!
"Or you can cheat and use soda cans"🤣🤣🤣🤣
And after removing all that splatter a person should clean the carrier thoroughly in a parts washer. because there are tiny particles that can get into places where a person can't see them. and you don't want that stuff floating around in your gear lube.
To the people who have smaller rear ends: Weld the 4 gears on BOTH SIDES of the case, if needed open a small enough hole to access and weld the other side, and especially for those who have c-clips, it is a good idea to weld the planetary gears to the housing too, because the torsion coming from the axle can break a weld or even the smaller satelite gears, which can break all of it if the planetary gears aren't welded to the case. I've been running a welded diff for almost 3 years now and never had a problem!
Use a oxy-acetalene torch set with no air and lay a heavy soot layer onto anything you dont want weld spatter to stick to. Weld it up and wipe off the soot all good and clean been doing it that way for years
Of all the suggestions on this topic, I think this the best. Thank you.
Interesting. I cast my own lead bullets, and the standard procedure is to smoke the mold with a lighter or a match. The thin layer of soot lets the bullet drop right out of the mold when you crack it open. Same principle at work.
@@Dick_Gozinya I have done the same when casting bullets as well, but a thin layer of soot works better to get maximum lead in and not have external inclusions from the soot taking up space in the mold
I always added some plate, bar stick, rebar or even pipe to the spider gears and welded that in too...no idea if it added any significant strength, but we also never broke one like that either.
One of my favorite old UA-cam videos is “Around the Corner”, a 1937 Chevy video explaining how the differential works.
It's a great video. Showed it to both my sons, they understood it well afterwards.
I'm an 80 yr old Canadian from Vancouver that raced in altereds & two different funny cars. I used to take the spiders out & fill the parts of of the teeth up solid with weld that weren't engaged and grind them over to make em look pretty. Then reinstall. that with Olds or Pontiac rears. Never had a problem. No muss, no fuss
Hahaha, Ford 8". Been there, done that !
My '55 crestliner with a 312 and T-10 would pop the spider gears in a heartbeat. After the 2nd time, i welded that thing to a spool and learned to pop the clutch around corners. Really fun in a shoebox with manual steering, brakes and trans.
MAN, I miss that car !!!
(I later upgraded to a 9" then sold the car)
Uncle Tony, all I can say is THANK YOU, your videos are so informative, and helps us guys who dont have the old time car guys in the family or around anymore to learn all that stuff we missed out on. I love your videos, the delivery and the fact that its geared (pun intended) toward options that are budget friendly, old school car guy methods. These videos are so valuable and I appreciate you making them. Thank you!!
This is my favorite video on this subject man this is everything you need man and the comments are so helpful I'm glad we all have each other in these fucking cars
Lastly, if you don't like the results have another rear end on hand because the one you welded is screwed
This^^^
Cutting out and welding in some rectangular steel plates to fit inside (or on top) of the 4 gears is a good way to add some extra integrity after the initial weld! Aluminum foil is also a cheap way to keep all the slag, BBs, and whiskers off the center pin and bearings!
One of the projects we were handed in metal shop my freshman year of high school was to make block to replace the spider gears. Some of us did well and then there were the others. Many a shop teacher loved these projects in the late 60's. Great fun to also weld them as a project for metal shop.
Lol my high school shop teacher wasn't impressed when we welded the diff on my chevette and put big spacers under the springs to fit taller tires lol ...had a 283 and 2spd pwrglide jammed in it all done with a stick welder lol when I was 16....you can actually wrap the speedo around was a scary little car the driveshaft yolk from the original 5spd actually had the same splines as the powerglide lol 😆
My first differential i welded was on my 98 xj Cherokee, and I had pulled the failed iimited slip out, and replaced it with a home brewed "Miller more Track" (welded 8 inch). I rolled it around and then welded it home. After the weld I went to push that bastard under the jeep and I played HEĹĹ getting that thing lined back up under my rear leafs. It was at that time I realized that yes, there will most likely be some crazy new driving feedback coming from this new mod. I can say, from a traction state of mind, I wouldn't change it for anything! I love it! BUT, I would not do it to all my beaters. I leave the homebrew lockers for the Toyota and my jeep, my full sizes NEVER get the buzz!
Little tip, wipe grease on whatever you don't want spatter to stick to. But obviously don't contaminate your weld with it. And you'll get less spatter if you move your gun nozzle closer to the weld.
Good tips. Personally, I just use the same "anti-spatter" gel that I dip the nozzle in.
He was using pure flux core wire, zero gas.
Uhhhh.....the pre-heating of the gears is necessary and that should be hot enough to evaporate any grease, burning it out. Sorry but no short cut there. If the grease isn't burned out, it's the gears aren't hot enough.
Back in the day all we had to work with was a large junkyard and no budget. We spent weeknights burning insulation off copper wiring for the right to scrounge what we needed. Some of us still have our cars from those days. I still have my '73 Firebird with the '70 Buick 455 Stage 1 I stuffed in it. This was in MI so rust got to most of them, my Bird included. I think only Scotty and Chris had actual posi rears, the rest of us welded them.One of these days I am going to get that old Bird on the road again in all it's Canary yellow and bias ply tire glory.
Simple for you UT but fascinating to me even though I worked on cars for years. I never got into the racing and modding part so this is really interesting. Thank you.
Right off to do this to one of my spare bmw 2002 diffs ! Cheers Tony!
I had a Nova SS with a Trans Am rear-end in it. When I bought it, I didn't know that, and had a very difficult time pushing into the side of the house, barely turning the steering wheel. After getting it in a spot to jack it up, I looked at the painted cover on the rear, it had a tag with info about additive for Posi traction differential. Went to the local Grand Auto, bought the really good type of oil it really needed, drained the old stuff out, put in this stuff. Worked so much better after a quick drive. Was amazed how that made such a big difference.
Yeah....the wrong lube in a GM POSI rear will make all sorts of bad JUJU
Ah “The Tag”, used to be a super quick identifier in the yard when walking by a car to see if it had positrac or not ;)
@@111000100101001 Yep!
I remember my Dad doing this to the spider gears in his ‘32 Bantam altered back in the seventies. Lots of fun pushing it around the pits hearing the slicks scrubbing as you tried to turn. It worked though, and never let us down.
That's what's great about removable center sections or third members, you can get them fairly cheap, swap them out in less than an hour for whatever "mode" you want your car in then when you're done at the track or whatever you just swap back to street mode!
I have Dana’s in two of my cars. The other 3 have the 8 3/4. Those center sections have gotten expensive. 😁
@@drippinglass I have a whole shelf of Ford 8in, 9in and Chrysler 8.75 third members I pick them up all the time for $300 or less, guess it depends on where you're getting them from and what part of the country you're in
I just paid $500 for a sure grip center section and felt like I got it CHEAP. I've been seeing them lately for up to $850. Crazy stuff!
Compliments to whoever handles your camera and sound. Of the course the information is top notch as well. Thanks for the great videos.
Guys used to do this a lot in the 60s. I never saw it performed. Thanks for the demo.
You are right about moving in a straight line. Friend ripped his out turning a corner before he straightened out the car.
Well done, brother. One big thing you forgot was that this will kill your tires. Have a great Sunday, everyone.
Back in the 80’s we sure did it . Orange show speedway -
✊🏻👌👍
I am a fan of the spartan locker. Excellent traction with good street manors and surprisingly affordable. Sometimes called a drop in or lunchbox locker.
UT talks about that in the previous video.
Got one in my XJ have one the front also but need to address pinion slop need to tighten it up first. The rear spartan works great just have to let off the gas and coast sharp turns for them to unlock. Any gas and the pinion shaft cams the gear halves out to lock. For off road I love them but a bit unsure for drag car?
Nice tutorial, lower class of street stock dirt track cars often weld the spyders as well as autocross cars. I was surprised how nice the harbor freight welder sounded and welded with the long stickout. Thanks UT
Something Ill never do but could see it for specific purpose built cars like demo derbys or 4x4 off road. I had a 72 torino with a 4.56 and a spool. i took it out immediately since i didnt race the car as the previous owner did.
I have welded a bunch of them up back in the day. Also had to change out plenty of carriers and a couple housings. Good for a bomber only not for the street corners could snap a axel
I welded it just for the instability.. that’s the fun part 😂
Uncle Tony if you welding with flux cord wire it leaves a slag covering over the weld bead . If you are filling a gap like you did that takes multiple passes. You are suppose to weld a bead, then remove the flux with a wire brush or a needle scaler. Once the flux is removed you weld another bead on top of that . Stop remove flux , weld another bead so on and so on. Last time I checked. If you don't remove the flux your welds will have porosity , all types of little small holes from the flux burning up and giving off gases. Weld with porosity isn't very strong and will fail.
I appreciate that you go over the pros and cons. Normally you only see one or the other.
Been considering doing this on my drag car that RARELY sees street use(only in mexico when wanting to "troll" people with my sedan that looks clapped out.) I have a spare open diff in the garage right beside the spare trans lol.
I am tempted to try it at my local track. My local track is pretty well by the book when it comes to tech. I even had to remove my front window tint.
I once owned a 67 big block Camaro with a Direct connection Dana 60 with a spool. 14 X 31 slicks. Drove it twice on the street. Did not like corners at all. At 70 on the Xway it was a bear to change lanes. Great at Milan.
Thanks Uncle Tony. It looks like the process is every bit as primitive as I had pictured in my mind, but watching someone with experience doing it inspires more confidence than guessing and hoping. I have no problem doing the wrong thing, as long as I know I'm doing it the right way.
This is a great instructional video Tony. Awesome job.
Dear Uncle Tony - Thank you very much for this video and * why NOT to weld spider gears * ! And then how to do it all anyway! All very educational!
Just found your channel …badass man, thank you so much for putting your knowledge out.
I do agree with most of this. Except the fuel mileage one. I get 13.5mpg with a 10.5:1 big block chevy with a mini spool. The fatigue on tires and axles suck tho
Good stuff on the Lincoln locker training UT! Thx for the upload
Hitting it with some anti spatter spray before welding will help out with the dingle berry issue
I said it before, i heard about it all my life, specialy when all my cousins and uncles were drag racing. Talking about pros and cons but we were low 12's 440 72' swinger to mid 14's 440 68-71 Charger and superbee and 340 wedge 79' road runner(low 13's). We were daily drivers exept for my cousin 72 swinger. The main pro was to have full lock! Daaaa ! But the main cons was the street driveability, and corners wheels axle getting worn faster ans breaking. So nobody did it expect my racing cousin who did it. Did it improved his game? Probably is some bad track condition for take off traction. He had a low budget to deal with and welding was is cheapest option cause he had over 20 spare differentials for dirt cheap from gathering. It was the way still in the early 90's. Buying racing gaz was expensive so we would buy airplane gaz from a small local airfield.
Thanks for sharing these Nice contents. Again I learned how to do it for my next projet. Just hope the budget winibago 360ci wont break it. Hahaha
In my younger days myself and a couple of my buddy's ran "bomber" class dirt track cars. We would weld between 2 teeth of the side gears on both sides. We called it a 1/4 lock. As you pointed out welded spiders was against the rules but by doing a 1/4 lock you had 1 full turn of the wheel in case the tech inspector jacked up 1 side and spun the wheel, you "might" trick him. Also it let the inside wheel turn at the different speed to help the car turn.
Thank you for yours simple advice.
Was obvious that this video would attract lots of attention and comments ' good stuff Tony !
I used to weld up the spider to axle gears for my triumph spitfire for off road SCCA road race competition. Everyone did it back in the 70's ,It works fine ,improves handling. It makes them awful hard to turn a tight corner when pushing them around the pits or at home in the garage. I had to put one in my street operated car when I busted the diff on so railroad tracks over at the coast. My dad drove me back over with my competition unit and we installed it and drove it home over hiway 17 and had no problems. I used to duct tape all machined surfaces and the bearings to keep the spatter off when stick arc welding .When I could I used Gas tungsten arc .
I watched my weld the spider gears in an old 66' Fairlane with nickel rods for bracket racing in the early mid 80s
Something else a person will notice, if they either weld up spider gears or run another type of locked differential. on a vehicle that is used often is increased rear tire wear. due to scuffing of the rear tires when going around corners.
and a sort of rule of thumb when welding spider gears. is to think of it like welding cast iron. a person should try to keep the temperature of the work. up closer to the temperature that a person is welding at for best results.
Thanks for the videos on this subject ut
I welded one once. Here's the story. The spiders were damaged anyway and it was temp to keep my wife's car on the road until I got another diff. In the winter, it actually helped as long as you were careful, but once it dried up it ate tires like crazy. The extra traction is nice, but you WILL pay for it.
i daily drove my 70 firebird an entire year with welded diff no problem and same comfort as before automatic no idea if that changes the hopping most people get!
awesome vid. some ant-spatter spray helps with spatter sticking and make the clean up way faster
When I did mine, I threw it on my motorcycle wheel balancer set up, it was heavy on 1 side . Put a little more weld and got it to even out and had no vibration at speed.
well i have 2 open diff atm and going to swap to a bigger stronger diff soon as i decide what one lol so i also have this exact welder ... hmmm might as well have a lil fun i can leave 1 open and weld tf outta the other one and have fun ... ps thanks bro i been asking around and looking to see if this welder was capable of this and had 0 answer b4 now sooo a big shoutout and thank you to you Tony .. peace and love bro keep it rad stay safe and build on .... l8z
GM 14 bolt has an advantage. Split the carrier, heat the gears and tack them. Test fit into the other half of the case. If all's good weld each side, let it cool, reassemble and good to go. Easy to remove and replace the gears and save the case.
Thank you Tony.
I love it when you do How-to (and why you shouldn't) videos like this, Uncle Tony! Could you do a video on removing carbon from the combustion chamber and valves? Dribbling water down the carb throats with the engine running, etc. That would be really awesome, and could really be helpful for a whole lot of people.
He actually did do a video on the water trick a year or two ago, you should check it out.
ua-cam.com/video/JpBnLtvmO9c/v-deo.html here it is he actually covered quite a few old school tricks in it
Huge fan from Portland TN!! Would love to meet u tony!!
it lasted a whole season in a factory chevy s10 rear end we had with 373s it was an 83 s10 we only drag raced we mini spooled a 9 inch from a bronco for the next year looked like a bullfrog but it was a world of difference. cheap truck 283 heads i ported .030 350 flat tops 500-510 lift cam built glide went 6:40-6:50 they say they are prohibited i never saw tec ever fail a car for it
Just go to a locker...cheap and works super!!!!
If someone even thinks about welding the spiders the right way they are foolish. If you are running a demolition derby car, cheap ice racer, or a mud truck that is just driven into the ground after a couple events....Fine do this. Mini spool are dirt cheap and if you made it that far there is no reason you could have not got a mini spool in it. I did a quick searched eBay and there are options from as low as 20 dollars to under 100 depending on the differential. Full spools are in the 100-150 range, but odds are you're going to buy new bearings and have ring and pinion set up. Setting up a ring and pinion that will last isn't all that complicated, now if you want it noise free that becomes more of an art.
I ran stock cars for yrs 9 in and 12 bolts ! I would disassemble the spider set and weld 2 teeth on each side of the spider gears I used a wire feed with gas.. I have a furnace to pre heat the gears. When U use this method U still have some give on your axle gears and doesn't strain the axles so much. As time went along and we had more sponsorship I used posis or detroit lockers..
I agree with you , a spool is much better. How much are they..save your pop bottles and cash them in or sell some scrap and get a spool.
It makes what's left of the spiders very brittle. I welded up a Dana 60 rear in my mud truck and used it for a few races. I was backing it up one night to load on the trailer for an early start the next day and I feel and hear this clunk. I go ahead and load then I see oil running out on the trailer. Well a chunk of spider broke out and wedged under the ring gear and popped a hole in the case. I decided the Lincoln locker wasn't gonna cut it so I found a spool and patched the pumpkin. Sure hated to miss that race though. So it does have it's drawbacks. I will add I was running 40" tires and 5.13 gears.
All the Pineys I went to high school with had the ol' "Lincoln Lockers" in their trucks.
You need a gas grill Tony. Most people have those.
Allen Millyard style. 😎💯
I don't know why everyone hates flux core welders. As long as you're not doing body work they're great
There, you said it! Thanks!
Daily drivers and inexperienced do not need any type of spool or welded diff. Rain,dusty dirty roads in a car with any type of power will turn you sideways right quick.
same with limited slip on ice and snow
Your the best Uncle T
Tony, just keep your hands away from my rear end.
Me and a buddy did this to my 3rd gen Camaro years ago, we welded every other tooth solid between two with the spider gears removed. That way you can remove and install the spider gears and it still locked when assembled. Instead of welding it all together.
Love it- welding bare-handed with flux core!!! I've done it with tig at low amps, but flux core you'll end up with freckles you never had before all over your forearms
I used to do that all the time never had that problem I only quit because my hands would smell like welding smoke for a couple days, but as far as getting burned I've gotten far worse burns from wearing leathers than just a t shirt.
I always wear gloves. Heck some dollar tree gloves would be better than nothing.
Great video, I learn something from each one. In this video you only welded one side, is that enough or are you going to weld the other side?
Haha... Too funny! The old Hillbilly posi rearend! No consideration for balancing of a rotating assembly.
But yeah, if it works? There's also lock blocks that you can buy and install if you don't have a welder, plus no slag to clean up. 🙂 Oh to be 17 again. Lol....
EDIT: You need to play the dueling banjo song from Deliverance when doing the welding. 🤣
Your carrier doesn’t have the be balanced. Just how many rpm’s do you think it’s turning?
@@AA-tb4ff Well, your carrier is turning 1633 RPM in top gear with a gear ratio of 3.55 and engine RPM at 5800. I would think this is enough to cause a vibration in the carrier assembly at high speeds? But I could be wrong? Cheers
Utmost thanks Uncle. Like many of others, we’d all heard of it but never knew the specifics.
I came across a 1983 F150 at a pull out yourself yard. Someone drilled a hole in the back of the 9inch. Low. Probably to ween off potential seekers. I scooped up a complete axle for $100. Trim it down to my banjo diff on my '56 Fairlane.
We used to be able to spot Datsun 510's that had locked diffs in them by the body seam cracks around bottom of rear window.
Utg invest in a can of anti spatter spray it's cheap and saves a bunch of time with the cleanup process as it "helps" alleviate the slag from sticking to places it's not meant to contact.
Case is a higher carbon alloy forging. The gears are low carbon steel that is carburized to about 1 mm deeth (1/25 of an inch). The added flux weld material will even out the carbon content in thr case hardened zone - since its very thin.
The case probably have about 0,40 carbon all through. Thats likely why it cracks.
old school torch and coat hanger
I weld the diff on my Jeep a few years ago and I heated the diff up with a propane torch the diff and spider gear’s. And i drive every now and then. And on my Jeep I don’t weld the center pin
They sell a antislag spray that makes it easy to remove the slag from the parts when welding. Works well 👍
Pam cooking spray can help prevent spatter from sticking.
Another way I’ve done it before is to melt 6061 aluminium and pour it in it works quite well
You are a good uncle
Thanks for sharing your old school knowledge
I grew up using a stick welder, but can't seem to weld with the wire feed for shit. I just noticed from watching you that I've been holding the tip too close (like I would with a rod), but I see you let out a lot more wire. I got something out of this video that I totally didn't expect. Thanks man.
...and you move with the weld direction only not into it. With a stick you have to move into it and the direction you weld. They are both a different feel. I cant weld with a stick worth a damn!
New camera??? I’m kinda liking it
That's about how I do it, but I cover everything that's not getting welded with pieces of light gauge sheet metal, and I use a gas MIG. When I'm finished, everything is basically spotless, so there's no cleanup.
great video
Thanks !
Great advice
The biggest mistakes alot of people make when Welding spider gears is not preping properly and the other is if you're using a stick welder use a high nickel rod like a 7011 or a cast iron specified rod. The other thing is cleanup make sure it's really clean afterwards especially if you do it in the axle housing.
I like spools. Spools like me. Axles don't like spools. So much fun in the rain on slicks or drag radials.
If it's a c-clip style rear axle I'd definitely recommend using argon
(Also if you *do* care about handling or running on snow or loose surfaces, a 'posi' (Sorry if I'm not that respectful of brand names, UT. ) ...is nice, but an open diff will teach you a lot about weight transfer sideways. (Also why it's nice to bolt a sway bar on things we usually talk about if straight lines aren't your only thing. (Also some fussing with bushings and stuff so each side behaves as predictably as possible. ) Much meat on the bone for improvement. Especially with nice gas shocks. )
You sure seem respectful of that GM brand name.
@@nastybastardatlive Eh, I just grew up calling all of em that, dunno where I got that habit. :)
I've leaned something new. Heat the gears up before welding. I'll have to try it out on the next pure stock dirt track car demo derby car or pulling truck.