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Non-Traditional Shin Gunto: Steels and Forging Methods
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- As promised in my recent Type 98 feature, here's a bit of a long ramble that hopefully gives some good information about what makes a "Non-Traditionally Made" Showa Era Shin Gunto vs a traditionally made Nihonto, what it might mean for the quality of the sword, and I make some amusing comparisons to modern reproductions.
Note: Despite some favorable comparisons with modern reproductions in terms of steels and forging/finishing methods, there are three things historic originals tend to have over reproductions: Meaty blades (which increases durability), Japanese made (even if not "traditionally"), and, of course, history.
Next up: A look at my unusual Showa Era Type 94.
When i was a teenager in the 90s working the family farm, a man on a horse showed up one day when my parents were out and a disagreement resulted, resulting in him drawing a Japanese sword from his kit and attacking me with it. As luck would have it, my hobby at the time was knifemaking so i defended myself with a blade I was working on the day prior. He is buried in what was previously exclusively our family cemetery going back centuries in an unmarked grave because I had no idea what his name was. I lied to my dad who insisted i bury "all of him" in the woods in that i couldn't bring it upon myself to put such a beautiful sword in the earth to decay alongside hundreds of dead coyotes and sheep, despite the damage i had done to it with my own during the struggle. Since then i've attempted to identify what it is and today i'm pretty certain it's a "Type 95 Japanese Shin Gunto" but the main reason i ended up on this video is i am still to this day trying to figure out "what the hell kind of steel it's actually made out of", because even after nearly 30 years this blade has ZERO rust, even with no oiling or maintenance of any kind. It's insane because even with "full stainless steel blades" after time the impurities will show some form of corrosion but not this (presumably) 80+ year-old sword. Zero.
When people ask about it on my wall i just tell them that i think it's some kind of alloy? I'm basing this on three facts 1) Aforementioned lack of any corrosion whatsoever, 2) It cannot be polished to a mirror like pretty much any genuine steel blade I've ever encountered, and 3) The blade i used "against it" was standard spring steel I had sourced from ancient farm equipment on our land and (as far as i knew) not notably high quality but it significantly damaged the edge-side of this sword whereas itself, by looking at it you could never tell that it came in contact with this "authentic Japanese sword".
I watched your whole video because I expected to find out more about the type of steel used in these but what you mentioned was just billet steel, so that doesn't solve the mystery of why this blade refuses to corrode even the slightest bit, and what actual steel it is made of.
Help me solve a 30-year old mystery here, if you have time away from work and real life obligations? I can provide pictures if there's an email address you're comfortable sharing. Thanks in advance.
You can reach out to me on FB and Message me photos. One question for a 95 would be if it's got a cast metal handle is it aluminum or copper, or is it a carved wood handle? Also a serial number on the blade might help trace it. I'm not sure what kind of stainless steels were used by the Japanese, probably the equivalent of a modern 420. Probably not too hard (around 50HRC or maybe less) to prevent it from shattering, which is why the edge failed so badly against a properly hardened spring-steel knife. I've heard of some that were barely hardened at all. The general rule is that stainless makes fragile swords, but I have a couple of stainless blades (420 and 440) from Marto in Toledo from the 1980s that have been ridiculously tough, so they seem to have a good process considering they otherwise make wall hangers. These polish up nicely though, so there's got to be some alloy in the steel of your 95 that's making it gray-looking, or maybe it's very low hardness. There are some affordable file sets to estimate blade hardness. I'm sorry you had to have the thing used against you. I've been on the wrong end of blades and guns, and had to hurt people, and it doesn't leave you.
My father in law was a ww2 vet. He told me that he had heated that a Japanese sword could chop through a machine gun barrel so the rumor was definitely out there
Amazing job on the video definitely helps answer some questions I've definitely had also made me want to go through the work of trying to get ahold of historical Shin gunto this video and your past videos and future videos will help me determine on which direction and how to do that so thank you for continuing to inspire my collective spirit at my wallet expense
Thanks! Glad it was useful!
I just got a Gunto Style Blade from my local surplus store. It was being advertised as a Kaigunto, but it turned out to be in Rare Showa Era Civilian Fittings (Beautiful brass plated Sakura designed fittings with real samegawa and blue ito wrappings. The bronze sakura style menuki were also a nice touch). All of this was contained inside a modified black painted wooden saya that was covered in a leather field covering. The blade has a Gnome style hamon (which is very faint and at times you can see breaks in that hamon) with some midare pattern to it, but it was closer to the edge than I thought would normally be possible. It is a straighter Katana, possibly modeled after the Edo period smiths. The area above the hamon has a deep dotted pattern to the steel, but other than that has no details to give as to its manufacture process. It has a high polish, but the blade is badly dulled and has grey splotches that will not come out when applying new oil, although they did fade. After taking the Mekugi pin out of the one hole and taking apart the hilt to look at the tang, I see a Kanji acceptance stamp (no design outlining it, just the character, but it is badly faded) on one side followed by a smith's name which is large and crudely engraved. On the other side of the tang is possibly the manufacturing date that I also can't read. All I know is that it was used in battle since there are a few chips in the blade and the Katana could have been used by a former Gunzoku (Militarized Civilian) or possibly late in the war by someone; either enlisted or officer.
Perhaps during the battle of Okinawa? I'm certain it has a fascinating history!
@@michaelrizzo5523 Then it might be worth getting the sword appraised? The blade has some qualities that might be qualities of tamahagane, but the barely legible stamp above the smith’s name might make it a Showato. In either case the sword itself is an enigma. All blades with these kinds of fittings are. On the web I’ve only seen one other example of these particular fittings, but seen two other variations from the same period.
@@ajsliter Yes, definitely! You might be able to find someone online, as there are groups for serious collectors and scholars of Japanese swords. If there's no date on the other side of the tang, it could be dated by smith and fittings (unless it was refit as a gunto).
@@michaelrizzo5523 I just got my answer from the Nihonto Message Board. This Katana I have was made in 1942 using traditional methods including the real hamon, but not using tamahagane and therefore not classified as a true nihonto. The Showa-era Swordsmith is Asai Toshimasa and bears an acceptance stamp of the Seki Cutlery Manufacturers Association. This association primarily inspected Showato, though there have been unconfirmed reports that they might have inspected tamahagane blades. The Fittings are Showa-Era Civilian fittings made specifically for Civilian Employees of the Military. These seem to differ from the Gunzoku as discussed earlier as gunzoku normally carried blades with brown tassels in Shin Gunto Fittings. Not much is known about the Civilian Employees that worked for the Military as opposed to the Gunzoku which were almost paramilitary due to having uniforms like the armed forces yet still civilians.
The civilian koshirae come in at least 6 flavors which are plated or painted on the iron they are made from: The brass plated Sakura Pattern, a nickel plated Bamboo Pattern, A plain iron pattern, a Brass plated fig leaf pattern, A Semi-Plain, but brass plated Iron Pattern with four sakura flowers in a square and finally a brass plated Pine tree motif. The fittings that had this motif or pattern were the Tsuba, Kashira, and Menuki. The Fuchi and Seppa were standard Gunto Fittings. The Ito wrap was almost always either blue or black with real samegawa.
According to Mr. Komiya's research that I obtained through a user on that forum, the sword shortage in 1942 was so bad that civilian fitted swords that were made before and even during the war were often activated for war use and gained the field wrappings common on this one. In such a case it was likely given to an officer of either the Gunzoku or the Army or Navy.
Since it is a 1942 made sword the battles it could have been in are many.
@@ajsliter It's likely an exceptional sword as well as an exceptional piece of history! Definitely a true treasure!
Great video. Would love to get my hands on a Kyu-Gunto as well as a shin gunto.
Tamahagane can be made to be a very good sword steel, or an absolute piece of crap. It's down to the maker. I've got one made by Kanetoki in the mid-70's which is damned near perfect, and I have one which is 400 years older and most likely quickly produced for the civil wars period which has more weld flaws than fleas on an old hound.
Very interesting video as always! We in Italy too can't own live blade swords, only blunt or bokken. Thank you Mike!
I’ve seen plenty of gunto swords at flea markets, Army/Navy stores and elsewhere and always wondered if I should buy one. I’ve heard before that it’s not unheard of to find a gunto with a shinshinto or older blade. Maybe I’ll buy one the next time I see one. Even one with a mass-produced blade would be cool to buy. Thanks for your video.
If you're interested in the history and/or the swordsmanship, it's a nice piece to add to a collection. Sometimes they've been professionally assessed, and other times you don't know what you're getting.
So many talking points here, but one factor I agree with wholeheartedly is never to consider katana out of Japanese culture a Nihanto rather a replica or Japanese style sword...agree on all your steel discussion, very well done Michael, I enjoyed this 😀
For them it's a legal as well as cultural definition: If it's not fully traditional Nihonto, it's an illegal weapon in Japan. The upside is that it's motivated Japanese smiths to continue traditional swordcraft.
Nowadays many if not most Japanese smiths use quite a few power tools including power hammers and presses.
Thanks for the video! Any plans on making a small series on breaking down go rin nosho book of five rings? :D
That's an excellent idea! Thanks!
@@michaelrizzo5523 I know you have been breaking down his 5 different stances before but I think you got a good grasp on how to put his text into practice. I hope you concider it! :-)
Good evening Sir. I believe you nailed it. Plus I was unaware of the Turbans involvement. Any how,great ending. Now Amigo, here's a question. That the formal Samurai's katana was rarely drawn, do to a three strikes, severe blade damage. 🤔 cheers ☘️
If you consider certain styles of iaido and kenjutsu developed during the Edo period when the sword was a symbolic and defensive sidearm and no longer used for war, it's all about getting it done quick, one or two strikes ideally, and little to no blade to blade contact. Like a gunslinger. Some of the older systems seem to have a lot more blocking, and what they train would absolutely wreck a fine tamahagane blade. But a battlefield sword is what I've heard called a "consumable," and more of a stylish backup weapon for the samurai as well in that situation, so also rarely drawn.
@@michaelrizzo5523 well put. I agree. Separating fluff from substance. Four out of five dentists kind of thing. Thank you for your time. Till next time Slan ☘️
really love your vids that's why I subbed, I got a cheaper gunto replica for 60 usd and it's a good backyard cutter, the only thing I don't like about it is theTsuka was glued and the samegawa was fake so I destroyed the handle make a new one with real ray skin on it, I just love customizing cheap gunto repro
Thanks! I've seen prebuilt gunto-style tsuka on Amazon, though they run about $50USD.
@@michaelrizzo5523 I just don't have any Idea if amazon would shipped here in the Philippines, so yeah I got no option so I ordered another wooden handle from other sellers here and customized it, recently I've met a guy that has a legit type 98 he said that the tribesmen here found it inside a cave last month, what he did is he gave it to his Japanese friend, so it would be brought back to Japan and donate it to their museum dunno, all I know is it needs a lot of permit, maybe, I've seen the photos and yeah its a legit 98 only the tsuka was damaged
a gunto cutting a overheated machinegun..... that is something i would like to see tested out in reality.. any modern mythbusters to test that?
The only "documentation" I have ever heard of for the cutting-through-a-machine-gun-barrel is a poor quality Japanese propaganda film which has a nice set-up of getting ready for the cut, and then it cuts to a bad angle from further away for the actual "cut", and the original film is, of course, no-where to be found these days.
When propaganda meets shady marketing!
Can I get your email address? I have 3 swords that I would like opinion on. One is several hundred years old
Best bet is to message me on FB: facebook.com/michael.rizzo.90834
@@michaelrizzo5523 I gave facebook up 3 years ago. I only use email and text now