My mom used to say, "You take care of your life here and now. Be a good person. Work for the common good and justice and so on, and God will take care of himself. Don't focus on God and what will happen in the afterlife. Focus on doing a good job now and that will take care of itself." And she was a very spiritually inclined person who believed in God. But she did not talk to others about it much.
Im 15 minutes in and this is an EXCELLENT episode. What Andrew speaks of deconstructing your beliefs does take an amazing amount of courage an effort. A lot of people who are saying they arent sure about the election, I think are having to go thru this. They know Trump is bad, but they are having to deconstruct their entire identity -- and that is always a struggle.
I wanted to be a boy to please my father. I did my best to adopt what I interpreted as "masculine". Growing up in the 70's there were many toxic narratives about male and female. I am deconstructing them now and embracing my non-binary identity. Listening to you both was very helpful and I loved that you did not consider yourselves experts. Your vulnerablity touched me. You are helping me to repent /renounce of toxic ideas about both genders. Thank you.
I greatly appreciate the encouragement given in this episode to deconstruct. I am in my mid forties and I have been on this journey for the past twenty years. I grew up in Louisiana and in an SBC church. It hurt to leave my heritage at the beginning. Today I am thankful to be out though the imbedded theology still comes up every now and again. I gotta keep facing it all. Thank you for this channel! It has been highly encouraging.
Interestingly, I'm currently reading "The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love" by bell hooks. I feel like it's pretty relevant to this conversation.
This convo made me think of my 2 brothers. Grew up with similar traits: kind, likeable, thoughtful, sensitive. One left the church and is dealing with the emotional mess that was growing up in church. He went through some therapy and is finally beginning to value himself despite setbacks. The other has stayed in church faithfully, thinks therapy isn't for real men... and his two precious girls admit that they can never, after all these years, "talk to dad about real life, serious stuff". Religion has done harm to them both but it really feels like the one that stayed is only engaging with part of his own life and thus, not living in a fulfilled way. P.s. Glad you look to your audience of women for their thoughts on this. We know a lot about masculinity from daily life.
I am grateful more men who believe in acting humanly are speaking out about the more nefarious ways of being masculine and how those choices feed the dissatisfaction people find in trying to achieve that status in life to be seen as successful individuals.
This may sound over the top, but years ago I had a dream about the resurrection and the reality of it to the core of my being is something I wish everyone could experience.
The patriarchy people believe that since women are the weaker vessel therefore they are the lesser vessel. Of course this is absurd and contrary to reality. It shows that they value physical strength and it is the criteria for their masculinity.
I have been following for a few months now and just wondering if you have read "The kingdom, the power, and the glory: American evangelicals in an age of extremism" by Tim Alberta? Wow!
Please don't over-estimate therapy! I went to therapy 20 years ago, and I don't doubt the good intentions of the therapist, but I had such a traumatic experience that I still get therapy to recover from that 1st therapy: PTSD treatment this time - caused by one therapist, treated by another.
16:30 It is very jarring when you are becoming a more mature and responsible person in the world & then get shamed for it and told it’s you being a sinner.
I disagree with so much of you guys and your perspective, but I love this one thing: “masculinity is about using your strength to fight for what is right and fight for the powerless. “
I do think men are in crisis. When you lack opportunity and cant take care of your family. Fascism creeps in the 1930's right after the Great Depression. I think we pushed off the consequences from the 2008 crisis and we are feeling them now, and Covid exacerbated this. It is putting a lot of people in crisis.
It could be that "none of them are right." But it also could be that each of them had a piece of what was right. It's the old blind men and the elephant story maybe. As to the loss of the family of the faith community, I have no doubt that was a horrible experience (I've had it myself when I went up against a group that I was parr of, embedded in and wanted to be a part of). But, I think that we have to know that you as a full human being were never really accepted by them. You were excepted completely conditionally. So long as you agree with us on every single thing, we will love and support you. That ain't love. That's club membership in which your dues were you soul and mind. Ugh, creepy.
Gotta love how Andrew and Tim are in agreement that Doug Emhoff is a beautiful example of good, joyful, and self-giving masculinity. This is when you realize that Andrew and Tim's values really center far more around their deeply entrenched political identity than much else. Andrew asked for us to give him examples of where he is wrong, so here you go. Any acknowledgement of your possible error here Andrew? Doug Emhoff has quite the history in his treatment of women. I'd call it deeply toxic. Looking to him as an example of good masculinity is a wild take to say the least...willful blindness?
So do a few on the right side, but because they claim to be Christian they are forgiven by their supporters. Amazing how those on the left are held to what they supported, thought or did years ago, but those on the right are allowed to change their mind or modify their opinions and that's great.
you should really reach out to an intersex person many have been raised in a gender that wasnt theirs for years hiding their inner feelings a lot of intersex people had to be fence walkers playing on both sides they are made to be neutral between the genders they observe both and many can change at will because they/we are androgynes not "non binary" we are two people in one certain ways we are male and certain ways female sometimes our public display is one gender and the other is at rest or suppressed because of the memories of being that gender and having to pick one over the other to display
![Method Writing: The First Four Concepts - Jack Grapes [FULL INTERVIEW]](/img/n.gif)
My mom used to say, "You take care of your life here and now. Be a good person. Work for the common good and justice and so on, and God will take care of himself. Don't focus on God and what will happen in the afterlife. Focus on doing a good job now and that will take care of itself." And she was a very spiritually inclined person who believed in God. But she did not talk to others about it much.
Im 15 minutes in and this is an EXCELLENT episode. What Andrew speaks of deconstructing your beliefs does take an amazing amount of courage an effort. A lot of people who are saying they arent sure about the election, I think are having to go thru this. They know Trump is bad, but they are having to deconstruct their entire identity -- and that is always a struggle.
I wanted to be a boy to please my father. I did my best to adopt what I interpreted as "masculine". Growing up in the 70's there were many toxic narratives about male and female. I am deconstructing them now and embracing my non-binary identity. Listening to you both was very helpful and I loved that you did not consider yourselves experts. Your vulnerablity touched me. You are helping me to repent /renounce of toxic ideas about both genders. Thank you.
Two instagram pages with positive masculinity are “a call to men” and “man enough.”Loved this podcast collaboration!
I greatly appreciate the encouragement given in this episode to deconstruct. I am in my mid forties and I have been on this journey for the past twenty years. I grew up in Louisiana and in an SBC church. It hurt to leave my heritage at the beginning. Today I am thankful to be out though the imbedded theology still comes up every now and again. I gotta keep facing it all. Thank you for this channel! It has been highly encouraging.
It takes a tremendous amount of strength.
@@AndrewLSeidel1 That it does! And a tremendous amount of courage.
Interestingly, I'm currently reading "The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love" by bell hooks. I feel like it's pretty relevant to this conversation.
Andrew is the greatest! I'm glad you are talking to him.
This convo made me think of my 2 brothers. Grew up with similar traits: kind, likeable, thoughtful, sensitive. One left the church and is dealing with the emotional mess that was growing up in church. He went through some therapy and is finally beginning to value himself despite setbacks. The other has stayed in church faithfully, thinks therapy isn't for real men... and his two precious girls admit that they can never, after all these years, "talk to dad about real life, serious stuff". Religion has done harm to them both but it really feels like the one that stayed is only engaging with part of his own life and thus, not living in a fulfilled way.
P.s. Glad you look to your audience of women for their thoughts on this. We know a lot about masculinity from daily life.
I am grateful more men who believe in acting humanly are speaking out about the more nefarious ways of being masculine and how those choices feed the dissatisfaction people find in trying to achieve that status in life to be seen as successful individuals.
Bravo on this much needed conversation!
Love this interview. My husband listened yesterday and really resonated with this conversation. ❤
Thrilled to hear that.
Thanks Tim and Andrew.
Great show! Love that you are talking about Toxic Masculinity and the role the church plays a role in it. Thanks for being good men.
Great talk!
Wow, thanks for sharing! Great podcast
This may sound over the top, but years ago I had a dream about the resurrection and the reality of it to the core of my being is something I wish everyone could experience.
The patriarchy people believe that since women are the weaker vessel therefore they are the lesser vessel. Of course this is absurd and contrary to reality. It shows that they value physical strength and it is the criteria for their masculinity.
I have been following for a few months now and just wondering if you have read "The kingdom, the power, and the glory: American evangelicals in an age of extremism" by Tim Alberta? Wow!
2:53 i think that's the extent you which we can be secure in our faith. On a technical level, we're all agnostic. We CAN'T be 100%
“Don’t start a mega church. Go to therapy.” -Can I get this printed on a T-Shirt? 😂😂😂😂
Please don't over-estimate therapy! I went to therapy 20 years ago, and I don't doubt the good intentions of the therapist, but I had such a traumatic experience that I still get therapy to recover from that 1st therapy: PTSD treatment this time - caused by one therapist, treated by another.
16:30 It is very jarring when you are becoming a more mature and responsible person in the world & then get shamed for it and told it’s you being a sinner.
I disagree with so much of you guys and your perspective, but I love this one thing: “masculinity is about using your strength to fight for what is right and fight for the powerless. “
Do you mind if I ask what it is you disagree with in particular? I'm genuinely curious.
I hope you can invite Seth Andrews as a guest
My husband says go to Hawaii to find out what healthy masculinity means :-)
❤
I do think men are in crisis. When you lack opportunity and cant take care of your family. Fascism creeps in the 1930's right after the Great Depression. I think we pushed off the consequences from the 2008 crisis and we are feeling them now, and Covid exacerbated this. It is putting a lot of people in crisis.
Wow, what a beautiful man....🤩This was so cute. I love this bromance ❤
It could be that "none of them are right." But it also could be that each of them had a piece of what was right. It's the old blind men and the elephant story maybe. As to the loss of the family of the faith community, I have no doubt that was a horrible experience (I've had it myself when I went up against a group that I was parr of, embedded in and wanted to be a part of). But, I think that we have to know that you as a full human being were never really accepted by them. You were excepted completely conditionally. So long as you agree with us on every single thing, we will love and support you. That ain't love. That's club membership in which your dues were you soul and mind. Ugh, creepy.
Gotta love how Andrew and Tim are in agreement that Doug Emhoff is a beautiful example of good, joyful, and self-giving masculinity. This is when you realize that Andrew and Tim's values really center far more around their deeply entrenched political identity than much else.
Andrew asked for us to give him examples of where he is wrong, so here you go. Any acknowledgement of your possible error here Andrew?
Doug Emhoff has quite the history in his treatment of women. I'd call it deeply toxic. Looking to him as an example of good masculinity is a wild take to say the least...willful blindness?
So do a few on the right side, but because they claim to be Christian they are forgiven by their supporters. Amazing how those on the left are held to what they supported, thought or did years ago, but those on the right are allowed to change their mind or modify their opinions and that's great.
I stopped believing in god before I stopped believing in hell. Religious trauma is very real even if the triggers for trauma aren't real.
you should really reach out to an intersex person many have been raised in a gender that wasnt theirs for years hiding their inner feelings a lot of intersex people had to be fence walkers playing on both sides they are made to be neutral between the genders they observe both and many can change at will because they/we are androgynes not "non binary"
we are two people in one certain ways we are male and certain ways female
sometimes our public display is one gender and the other is at rest or suppressed because of the memories of being that gender and having to pick one over the other to display
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. There is no fear of God here.
I am so sorry you had to experience faith that way.