As a European, the idea that "made in the USA" means anything as far as quality goes is a joke. Making something in the US will reduce shipping costs in North America but doesn't make much difference to the relevant other markets and the additional production costs won't be compensated with a quality increase, probably be made to a lesser standard.
As an American, 'made in the USA' always meant it cost more and wasn't necessarily better or more innovative. And if you don't have the money to 'support' made in the USA, you're forced to support other manufactures. It's just logistics of survival.
What I have read is that the plastics producers in the USA don't want to produce toys because the margins are too small and the volume is too low. The opportunity cost is too high, so they produce medical/capital implements. They don't produce consumer side items. The cost for a game company to build the infrastructure/factory in which they can produce miniatures is cost prohibitive. It would require massive money up front. That all said, American's are not nationalist with their consumer goods. Wal Mart used to be the "Made in America" store, and their colors were red, white, and blue. Their sales were stagnant as consumers shifted. We all know now that the majority of items on Big Box retail shelves are made over seas. Their stores are now painted a beige/tan color. To one point you made, I don't agree that people DON'T want industrial jobs. People very much DO. A HUGE percentage do. They just can't find them because those jobs were all pushed overseas, into Mexico, into Canada. GM didn't close factories because they couldn't find employees. They laid off 10's of thousands so they could make larger profit margins as they became more capital intensive and outsourced. There is a reason that Wal Mart and Amazon are the biggest employers in the USA.
Agree with losing manufacturing, it wasn't that people didn't want to do those jobs... they didn't want to do them if they didn't get paid appropriately. Manufacturing was moved purely to increase profits for CEOs and Stockholders. Which are different than 'profit' of an indy board game company to paid their workers and maybe another order of games.
James thinks one way, and he's trying to rationalize his position, but I disagree. 1) People don't want to pay 30-50% more per game. Well, it's already happening but with shipping. On Kickstarter, sometimes you pay 100% of the base game on shipping if you add add-ons. 2) The quality would be worse. Yeah, at first, but it will improve over time. Should we not even try? Look at Terraforming Mars. It's the worst game quality I've seen, yet a beloved game. 3) Americans aren't interested in manufacturing jobs. I work at a factory. We "manufacture". Where does that thought process come from?! People will do whatever it takes to provide for their family. All of his arguments seem sound, but they can easily be picked apart. Add to that that China is our #1 adversary. How about we stop strengthening their economy?
There are certainly counterpoints, valid ones, to be made to some arguments - its all conjecture at this point. In reference to your 3rd point, as an employer myself, though not in the USA, the problem is more that in order to make the numbers work, manufacturing cannot pay wages adequate for first world service economies, or at least not for a while (until investment is done, stuff written off, and production optimized). And then there is the "problem" of "made in the USA" meaning you have to ship from both coasts to other markets as well. That is going to generate a lot of additional shipping cost too.
Maybe next time you could ask James why he was antagonistic and rude to KoA when Michael brought up that other companies had cheaper container costs but was interested and polite when the guy from Monolith said the same thing.
Interesting to watch the King of Average video where this guy cancelled him for calling out some data that showed inconsistencies in what companies are reporting about shipping costs.
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I remember, not long ago, the board games were manufactured in Germany. It was easy to deliver in Europe and more affordable than manufacturing and distribution from the US. With all the delays from China and the logistics sector craziness, it may be an excellent time to discuss this topic.
There are board game manufacturers in Germany and they won't go away. But their capacity is limited and usually booked out by German board game companies. Other board game manufacturers, that I heard of, sit in Poland and Czech Republic.
United against hate, unless you disagree with him. James is part of a facebook group that spent the last 3 days attacking KOA and then banning him from the group for presenting a different point of view. KOA dared to go after CMON in a video for ripping off customers.
@@lastburning I couldn''t give 2 fs for KOA.KOA is not the subject here. The subject is that a publisher running a board game forum, that supposingly should allow free speech, banned a user that brought into light information that companies use predatory methods and lies to justify overcharges. THIS as a consumer and fan of the hobby SHOULD worry you, both for the people that you follow for their opinions and for the companies that you decide to give your money to.....but again it doesnt as I see...kepp sucking the KOA is a douche kool aid
Pride in knowing something is made with American hands is a nationalist ideal. A good one as well (my bias as an American), yet also a seperate concept from consumer savings. I took this as his differential rather than a negative/political/condescending connotation for what it is worth.
@@wookiebarista No it’s not anything good to be prideful about. That’s the problem with nationalism, if people actually understood the term. The Nazis also took great pride in their manufacturing. You produce things at home because it provides a comparative advantage versus free trade. It’s that simple and it’s basic Econ 101. Furthermore, to do something because of pride and not economics is anti-free market. If it’s in someone’s economic interest to produce domestically, they will. It has nothing to do with pride.
By your rationale the Olympics should remove affiliation to country and only focus on the performance of individual athletes. The comparison we are debating was between economics and sociology. I see how you take the word nationalist though so perhaps a different term to better describe the sociological phenomena that is the sense of pride one feels when they, or those they know, create something of worth. As long as that reverence is the joy of making and doesn't cross the line to irrational exceptionalism I think we can agree that is alright. Celebrating the upcoming 4th of July is alright as well; however flawed we may be. I can accept though that the term nationalist is loaded for some and I could have expressed what I interpreted from the conversation and your comment differently. Hope this did a better job. Have a good one.
@@wookiebarista I don’t see the anology with the Olympics…You can produce something domestically for reasons NOT associated with a nationalistic ideal also. It just has nothing to do with the factors in determining whether or not it is beneficial to do so. And that type of logic can only serve to make markets more inefficient, if you were to put a mandate on domestic manufacturing, for example. It’s a poor way to run an economy, which is why people thrive under free trade when given the opportunity to act in their best interests.
It is necessarily Nationalist to not want foreigners to make your consumer goods. Now, it is possible to have an Internationally Socialist approach to global trade which could promote an increase in each nation’s domestic production to reduce spending resources and most specifically carbon based fuels on shipping to triage the coming climate calamity. But just wishing that the last 70+ years of (post) industrialization and globalization hadn’t happened or could immediately be reversed is, again, a Nationalist fantasy.
Never met someone who say make everything in the USA that can explain why the US market is more imporatant than the Europe market other than 'I am in US and that is all I care about'. It just doesn't work it your buyers are global unless you make it in 7 different places. In practical terms if people go down that route it is far more likly to be made in Europe than America, wages are lower in Eastern Europe and Europe has better transport infrastructure including port capacity and railways.
Seen king of average complain when games have lower shipping costs in Europe than America when being made by European firms, it seems to be a mind set that many Americans have.
I need a citation for all of those claims. If you make it here it doesn't even need to cross the big pond in between and we have wide highway systems that grow cross country. Don't trivialize American infrastructure. And where in Europe? Britain has congested roadways and awkward roads.
Thanks for the video Alex. Hudsons view is somewhat one sided on this topic. Try interviewing some other devs and you might get an opposing, if not at least sliding to the other side of the line view. He is very sensitive on criticisms to his kickstarters and tends to call out ones who question any of the aspects of his campaigns, either cost, quality, art, etc. Don’t take my word for it, all you have to do is read comments on KS and FB to see. I’m a backer of over 300 board game campaigns and although I like a lot of the products his company makes, level engagement is not a strong point of them/him. Just my 2 cents
I run a logistics company dealing with ocean freight. I can add a tiny bit of knowledge here - the reason why prices are not going to go down a lot again is partially because the big carriers have understood they CAN ask that much for it, and there is a certain level of, lets say, agreement to not undercut while the situation is unstable. Since this started over a year ago, the massive profits have been partially reinvested in new ships, replacement containers and, sometimes, port upgrades. This means they ll need to make more than they used to to justify those investments too.
The problem with prices is not capitalism - it's government regulations and oversight. In 2018 with regulations lessened, the US was exporting oil for the first time in 75 years. In 2022 with regulations reinstated and pipelines shutdown, we're at $5/gallon for gas and begging the Saudi's for a discount...
@@gasa5251 Look around. You think our current situation isn't exploitation? What do you think of lobbyists in bed with corrupt politicians? Exploitation can exist in any circumstance with human beings involved - however with more power and control, the higher the chance for corruption. A truly free market has less of a chance for exploitation than an overly regulated one does. The more heavily regulated an industry, the more big businesses weed out all competition. THAT'S exploitation.
Hey, it's that dishonest guy that bans and insults people if they disagree with him! Next time find somebody respectable to interview. His opinions have no value.
@@Dstinct The fact of the matter here is James here quoted prices for 1 of his containers at 33 thousand, however others have quoted paying far less. KOA vid didn't even point him out specifically, he was talking about cmon. However in the Facebook group, James was attacking KOA for being a liar, when KOA responded with his info, his posts were blocked. However when someone attacked KOA calling him a dick, the post wasn't blocked. Why is that the case? Then when monolith chimed in about their containers being around 12 thousand, James said that was interesting and wanted info about it, but continued in other posts attacking KOA for being a liar, even though he was just presented with evidence that proved KOA was telling the truth. KOA even reached out to James to talk about stuff, with no response. Yet James still attacked KOA in the Facebook group for not opening up and talking. So your accusing KOA of being an antagonistic pita, however in this case James was the one that attacked KOA in this facebook group, when the vid didn't have anything specifically talking about him or his company. This is a classic bait and switch tactic by James, when your proven wrong, but you don't want to be seen as wrong, so he gets KOA banned making him look like the bad guy, and then deletes all of KOA's posts on the group, so everyone just sees one side. However KOA's newest vid exposes James, by showing all the posts.
It is not nationalism for many of us I think. There is much wrong with what the Chinese government does with its money and for any game produced in China, a significant portion goes into their pockets. I would prefer that production shift away from feeding a political system as morally uncaring as the CCP. Even if it does mean more money for lower quality. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made to do the right thing.
Great video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love getting to see the perspective from folks in the industry. It is really wild how much the board game industry has changed in such a short amount of time. I would take a pay cut and quit my job today to work at a warehouse in the US that manufactured Frosthaven.
The entire video ignores the fact that a vast majority of game creators and publishers are not Americans but mostly Europeans: Awaken Realms, Iello, Ravensburger, Lucky Duck, Czech Game Éditions, a lot of companies under Asmodee, Game Brewer etc... Then game designers Lacerda, Rosenberg, Knizia, Pfister, Cathala, Maublanc, Wallace, Friese, etc. And for sure one would not produce one's games in different countries for different markets! So shipping is unavoidable.
I encourage anyone actually interested in the economic facts behind manufacturing, listen to some Thomas Sowell. (I wish he was our president...) You can also read a children's book "The Tuttle Twins: The Miraculous Pencil".
What a great - and vital - video. Great job! Reminds me of a survey here in Canada, that asked whether people would buy Walmart house brand t-shirts if they were made in Canada. They had an economist calculate that the same t-shirt that retails at $8 CAD when made in Bangladesh, would have to retail at over $35 CAD when made in Canada. And that was IF the Canadian factory could get enough subsidies and find enough employees to run efficiently. The survey showed ~80% of respondents would not pay the $35. Initially, around 85% said they wanted the t-shirts made in Canada. Until they saw the figures.
Not surprising cause people who go to Walmart usually need to shop there due to money issues. My own brother can't afford elsewhere and Amazon has killed almost all other affordable options (along with Walmart). Yet people will still buy expensive shirts in boutique even though they are made by slave labour. But yes, it's the majority of the population that makes the economy go so things need to be affordable for them. I worry a lot to see groceries go up so much. We will make a bigger donation to the food bank going forward, more people will need access.
A note that as of June, freight charges have gone done to under $10k for East Asia to America West Coast from $12-14k in May, $16k in April. East Asia to America East Coast is also down to $12k in June from $16k in May and $17k in April. For the record, these are prices that I could personally pay (I logged into my account and verified that I could book a 40' container on a ship at those prices). The problem with international shipping is just not boats, but ports capacity. As to the larger "board game" costs, I think the main problem is that there are too many companies producing too many products in too small batches. This is the classic microeconomic situation where there isn't a huge barrier to entry and there's a lot of competition: long term profits will trend towards zero.
Loved the conversation, James was the first guy in the industry that I met. He is down to earth, a straight shooter, and simply a great guy. You guys are both great advocates for board gaming! Keep up the great work and love the collaborations
Great video gentlemen. As someone working in the Tool & Die industry in North America, we have the tooling capabilities, there is just not the production investment, which would likely need the biggest players in the board gaming industry to take a stack in. Why would they reinvent the wheel though when it's running fairly smoothly across the pond, with just some new bumps introduced to get the games to their consumers. Unfortunately because of those bumps, I'm only backing games that I know I won't make it to retail. While I'd like to support the publishers directly through crowdfunding, when exchange rates come into play ($1US = $1.30CAN), it doesn't make sense as a Canuck, Chris George isn't wrong. Backing a $100US game would be $130CAN now + shipping, while if I wait for it to come out in a year, my local retailer will be selling it for $100-$110CAN with no shipping costs. Hmmmm... In fact, I'm focused now on searching & tracking down existing proven games that I've been wanting to add to my collection and buying them now, as I know pricing increases are not going to be going away and are likely to get worse for the next few years. I'm reaching out to stores in Europe, that even with their ridiculous shipping costs are selling games cheaper than in North America or have stock in games no longer available here. I was chatting with a store in Romania this week. I'm also of the mindset that Acrylic or cardboard standees are better than minis based simply on storage requirements, rather than just price. Something I know James is really having to consider with his upcoming projects. I've really enjoyed your two recent collaborative videos, keep them coming.
Alex and James, this was an excellent video! I am so impressed with and grateful for your content and very much appreciated the deep dive on this topic, which is very relevant to us right now!
I posted this in Boardgame Spotlight, but think it’s fair to post it here as well: I’m sure the video is great, measured and balanced as I would expect from Alex & James (I will watch it later). However, as a non-USA citizen, the relative ambiguity of the meaning of the title instantly raises my heckles - bear with me and I will try to explain (it may be covered in the video but, given the title - some people may not make it that far) I’m not sure if anyone who isn’t based in the US and is part of the hobby can empathise totally with this, but “why don’t we just make games in the USA?” Is a question which is thrown around a lot - understandably from people based in the States. Sure, America constitutes a large portion of the boardgaming industry but the majority of the boardgaming audience is outside of the US - so when I see a statement like the title of the video (and it is a statement, not a question) it effectively alienates anyone who doesn’t have a Zip Code or a 401k (admittedly, I don’t really know what a 401k is - but I think it’s a wholly American reference). Now, I don’t think the title is totally clickbaity, but it is skirting the edges of it. If I didn’t know the creator I could think I’m in for a jingoistic piece about American superiority in manufacturing and F@&k the rest of the world, rather than a balanced discussion. The title is marginalising (I’m sure that’s not the intent), as it’s not phrased as a question. I am assuming however, that this was a deliberate stance to not phrase it a question? The same way I (and others who solo game) feel when someone says “why play a solo game when you can play a video game?” - it provokes me into wanting to make a statement about why it’s an insular view and not considerate of the community as a whole. All this is based from the title alone, I haven’t watched the content yet (I will). I will reiterate, if I didn’t know Alex’s content and his views - based on the title - I would angrily not watch this and see it as another way to marginalise and pigeon hole the hobby. I’m having a cranky day today but I think this would have triggered me whatever kind of day I’m having.
I completely respect what you're saying. The video is purely about why not make them in China. But admittedly I let my own biases about the us being an alternative color the way I approach the conversation. I'm not even american, I'm Canadian...but I do view the US as the single largest consumption hub of board games and so approached it from that angle.
The part of the equation that you didn't mention is that, since Reagan, domestic wages have stagnated, even as profits have gone up. All of that money has gone into the pockets of fewer and fewer wealthy owners. If the profits from American companies were more evenly distributed to the workers through wage increases, people wouldn't mind paying more for their products. Manufacturing products overseas (where they allow drastically lower worker wages/benefits) has allowed the working class of the USA to still continue to afford products that would be unaffordable if made domestically. The long term fix is to fight back against corporate greed and increase the salaries of the vast majorities of workers through legislation and unionization. If workers are making more, they won't mind paying more. But if their wages are stagnated while their bosses are raking in record profits, they'll be stretching their dollars further and further. If the current trends continue, the board game industry will likely collapse because Jeff Bezos only needs 1 copy of Tidal Blades 3 and his thousands of employees won't have enough disposable income to buy themselves a copy.
You're right, it's not simple and the path is complex. But it's good to hear a creator that understands the possibility. I'm a truck driver and have been to many manufacturing plants. Board games are created mostly by printing and tool and dye. That exists all over North America. Right now their capacity is limited by demand and they focus on legacy manufacturing with clients that need parts and products for things still produced here, like vehicles and machinery. Many of the manufacturers you'd need are hard to find because they barely have functional websites let alone SEO. Chinese manufacturers benefit from a centralized system and boutique process where they hold your hand all they way through the process. This has removed so many barriers that finding the right solution to the right price is 1000x easier. If someone could update our old system to be more robust and create an Amazon yellow pages like Alibaba a culture of consultants and salespeople would grow around it. These manufacturers could expand and eventually the prices would go down to something similar to 2019. But it takes several companies with a willingness to aquire some more risk in the short-term for long-term stability. Of course the events of recent times may increase that willingness
Part of the problem is in China they pay the workforce a very small amount of money, which results in a cheaper product, were on the other hand in the Us you are required a minimum wage for all your workers. Most companies move over to china so they don't have to pay much greater amounts for the large workforce if they were in the US. So even if it was able to be made in the US, I don't think companies would cause it still would be cheaper to do it in china. As a side note, you board game companies need to be more transparent about your numbers, not only to consumers but to each other, because sounds like you might be able to get better deals then some of you are getting. You said for your company it was 33 thousand and change for 1 container, and Alex said 18 - 25 thousand. However while the numbers have increased, Ive had board game companies give me numbers much lower then these, one said their container was 7 thousand, another in the 15 thousand dollar range. Both of which are lower then what is being claimed by others. So if yours are much higher, your probably getting swindled by the company your dealing with.
Always enjoying these industry videos. For James I also think currently backers are ok with you not being CMON with a crazy number of stretch goals. We just want a fun game even if there is less plastic. Looking forward to bloodstone relaunch and all those dice
I'd love to see North America step up it's manufacturing sector for board games, but an Industry doesn't happen overnight. The was a decrease in Manufacturing jobs, but lots of factors played into that; Unions vs Federal Govt, the push towards College Degrees, the media glamorization of white collar jobs. It's partially that Americans looked for other jobs, but there was significant pressure to move those jobs out of the US to cheaper locations. (Trade skills also fell into this hole) I think you both did a great job of covering the myriad of points on the topic. One of the things I was a bit surprised not to hear mentioned was Andrew Navaro's Earthborn Rangers, for which sustainability, and regional manufacturing was a central point to their campaign
Do you think American workers would work for the same pay as Chinese workers? I doubt the economics would ever stack up, let alone the investment required, then what happens if or when those containers come down in price... how risky is that investment?
I’m interested to know what average percentage of backers are in the US? How much of the market would actually benefit from US based manufacturing? For this to work it would need to be localized manufacturing all over the planet for those of us that are not in the US. Doesn’t sound like that is something sustainable as prices and quality could vary per region. As James mentioned this sounds like a consumption problem, we need to scale back on purchases. Companies need to scale back content to ship more product in fewer containers.
Instead of new manufacturing in US or Canada, the thing that may actually work is for a game company to partner with panda to see if they can open another mfr facility in Mexico. There may be tax advantages and, logistical savings, open up greater market for panda, faster production for game companies. Now that is a win win
Great post. Informed. Interesting. Relevant. One thing I wanted to add is Mr. Hudson is correct that the U.S. saw tremendous losses in manufacturing from 80s through the 2000s (particularly from the 90s forward). But the causes didnt' start with Reagan in the 80s (and, I'm not defending Reagan, my politics are far-left of center). It was after WWII that America, feeling so secure in it's insane domination in manufacturing, decided to focus on techological innovation at the cost of manufacturing innovation. Subsidies, schooling, tax incentives, patents...all lined up to support the R&D of tech but not the RnD of manufacturing. Thus, in the lates 60s and 70s we saw Japan and Germany begin to dominate the production of new technologies that originated in the U.S. Germany, post WWII, built strong links between its industries and its Universities and Japan had a whole (I forget the term for it-- I think they have a name for it in their history books) revolution in product manufacturing. And in the 90s/2000s the loss of manufacturing accelerated as the manufacturing fully transformed from (so-called) 'un-sklled' manufacturing jobs to 'skilled' manufacturing jobs...where...currently...China leads by almost 20% (I think) when it comes to R&D investment into skilled manufacturing tech and training labor. Automation alone killed off huge sectors of 'unskilled' labor in the U.S. but the new, specialized manufacturing infrastructures were built overseas and the U.S. got caught unprepared, but also complicit in being unprepared. E.g. The promise of NAFTA included a lot of 'retraining' and 'new infrastructure' that hasn't been properly realized. But yeah. The strongest defenders of un-fettered, unregulated capitalism are often the same defenders of nationalism. The two don't fit. As long as workers in Mexico, or China, or the Mariana Islands can live off half the pay of workers in America, the jobs aren't coming back. Take the cost of anything (food, housing, medical...) and compare the increase of those goods/services since 1960 and compare it to the increase in wages during the same time period and the two don't reconcile. Despite the cost of wages in America, American wages are still suffering. And the scary part is that American companies are now outsourcing the RnD of tech development itself, more and more.
unfettered capitalism is a scarey thing! hello Walmart, hello Amazon. Both of these (and plenty more) companies may provide cheaper prices initially .. but both also kill competition.. do do see how that is a good thing. Armstrong Hawkins - a great comment you have there!
In my opinion i still think that the freight costs should be included into the price of the game even if that means that on average price goes up. Shipping from distributing to front door should be what is paid in addition to and should be an average of the total price for equivalent orders divided by the number of those orders. Companies shouldn't be profiting off of this portion of the shipping.
wait, wait .. hold up .. freight costs ARE already included in the price of games. Game pricing is based on "landed cost", which is the price of manufacturing + freight to get that product to your distribution hub. Distribution to your door ("last leg/last mile" shipping) is, typically, charged as an extra and is quite often (though increasingly less so) subsidized by the publisher so you pay less at their expense.
Generally speaking, don't expect production cost decreases to decrease the price you're paying for games. Price is set by demand. For games in high demand, there's no reason to reduce price, unless they think they're at the wrong point on the supply/demand curve. Games that don't have big marketing campaigns attached to them should fall in price, however; but remember that the classic law of supply and demand says the price you pay is set by demand, not by cost.
If only you knew an economist who specializes in national security issues… Seriously, well done on the board game side. There is a lot more about the capitalism vs nationalism, though. Most people don’t really understand what capitalism really is - it’s about competition, which means small businesses, not large industry-dominating firms (monopoly or oligarchy) that are inherently anti-competitive. That isn’t capitalism. Much of the shipping problem is because of this. There has been consolidation in the industry, compounded by every larger ships (more efficient), but at the same time it means fewer ships, and fewer ports that can handle them. That means fewer shipping companies, and more pricing power. Hence higher prices. Covid accelerated this problem by forcing industry consolidation.
Except that it literally is capitalism. It's what capitalism has always been. Arguing otherwise is ignoring reality in favor of your delicate feelings. Capitalism will always lead to these that initially outcompeted stifling competition unless prevented to by non-market forces, via government regulations, for example. Consolidation is inevitable with how capitalism has worked in the last few centuries.
@@fy8798 no. Pure capitalism has never existed, anywhere. Any more than pure socialism has. In every “capitalist” society, what we actually have is a mix of capitalism and public institutions. Econ 101 sets up a myth of government vs private sector. But the reality is far more nuanced. You can’t have a national economy without a government supporting property rights. You can’t have a national government without an economy to make sure your border have shoes and ammunition. The relationship between Private and Publix sectors is symbiotic, not adversarial, as taught in Econ 101. What people refer to as “capitalism” in political discourse is a perversion of what economists mean when they talk about market economics.
Everything you listed is by capitalist design. Eventually it gives way to smaller and smaller businesses controlling everything. It's actually capitalism working extremely well given on the record profits being reported by corporations. Industry consolidation was happening even before the pandemic. Covid only made things more apparent.
Alex, love ya man. Really appreciate you taking a deep dive into the board game industry as a whole. Amazon has addicted us to free shipping, which has made us complicit in their work to destroy all their competitors when we gripe about shipping costs for kickstarted games (i'm as guilty as anyone). Sadly, since nearly all of our cultural decision making is based around squeezing out the last possible profits I'm sure none of this will change until making and shipping games from the other side of the world impacts profits enough. Oh, and then there's the environmental impact of all this!
The original Victory Point Games did a great job of bringing it all in house. Obviously not the same quality, but I really appreciated the homebrew approach.
James' point about companies making "samey" games can also come with an upside. If companies land that evergreen game that allows them to basically print money and they use some of that money to hire people and create some new and innovative games then we all win. I really don't mind a company milking a franchise as long as they add something new and they continue pushing the game envelope in other areas because they have the capital to do so.
One way companies could reduce costs is by not printing millions and millions of plastic miniatures and shipping them across the world. I'm sure there would be a market for a game that came with all the cards, boards, tokens, etc.... along with space for minis that you could print out yourself. Then there's games like Zombicide which come around every few years with 6 surivors and between 60 and 70 zombies ...... to add to the +200 zombies I already have. These kind of sequel/ follow up games could be made bare bones and just provide extra game play rather than PLASTIC PLASTIC PLASTIC !!!!!!! but that goes against CMONs whole strategy
He referenced multiple times how with certainty the quality would be dramatically decreased in US vs China. I’m wondering why he says that? Isn’t it reasonable to think if we allocated for manufacturing again, we could easily fix the quality issue?
We'd get there, but we have very few workers skilled in this industry. From paper goods manufacturing, to printing, to die manufacturing, to die machine operation, to plastic manufacturing, to mold manufacturing, to mold injection machine manufacturing, to mold injection machine operation, to dice manufacturing, and the list goes on and on. We'd get there, sure. These are all learnable skills, but we don't currently have that infrastructure and it would take a little while at the least to bring up to the current quality. There's some things changing. Siocast makes small batch miniature manufacturing much easier (look at what Reaper or Blck Anvil (I think?) are doing). Paper goods manufacturing might come back for some other industry.
Its the plastic industry over in America, the high quality ones are used for high quality products like medical supplies and such. The same plastic used in what's considered low quality entertainment product isn't even considered. They wouldn't even want to try to do it because they wouldn't get any value in it. Like their using this plastic in America for medical equipment for 1000 of dollars. So for an example in China they use the high quality plastic for mini's for around 1$-3$ a mini. In America if it was priced the same they wouldn't make any money off that compared to what they already make selling it to others. Also in America those same mini's would be priced at 11-13$ a mini, just because of the required minimum wage that America has. You do the math if anyone would be able to sell a board game with mini's priced like that.
Fantastic video. I do care about minis. I absolutely do care about quality. @Alex - I agree with your video "Bad Art is a Dealbreaker". I would rather spend more money to get a top quality product. I've missed out on a few "wanted" board games due to shipping but I'm not angry about it and I don't think I'm being "taken for a ride" i.e. CMON, Mythic, etc. This is how it is now. It's simply not feasible to create / expect the same quality of game in North America barring outliers. Again, excellent video and logic is logic and business is business :)
Still gotta ship the games to other countries. Only cost that goes away is ocean freight to US backers and you add ocean freight to some new countries. Anyone thinking that the difference between US wages and China wages is going to make up for that difference needs to share whatever they're smoking.
Interview was fine, but why not just give your viewpoint without banning people and deleting their posts. Really disappointed that in our hobby, of all the hobbies, we cannot have an open exchange. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that there are bad actors or ill intent. I believe in fair market and I am not in any way opposed to people making a good living doing what they love. I have been happy during this pandemic to send extra funds to defray the costs of shipping to companies like Nemesis and then back their expansion. I did not back Marvel Zombies and don’t like the way CMON handled that situation, but I will back them again selectively if they create something I am interested in like more CDMD content. I think this would have been a great video offering a different perspective and insight into the industry, but disappointed it came after banning, deleting other peoples opinions which seem to have had legitimate data points confirmed by others in the industry. I think both parties in this case may be speaking honestly because the reality is probably that companies are having mixed success negotiating their freight charges and I am sure the shipping companies are not transparent about their actual rates. Like everyone else they are getting whatever they can to make a living. We can’t have a dialog about that without banning people and hiding their posts? We can’t just admit not all companies are handling these new market dynamics transparently? I am not a CMON hater but they absolutely did their backers dirty with that Marvel Zombies campaign. I hope they learned from that and future campaigns don’t have shipping surprises, but the reality is for that campaign they could make the situation right at any point, even if that was just showing the math to justify the massive increase.
The discussion is interesting to listen to, thanks both oy you for that. Also, I'm always amazed that, talking so much about costs, you never include the humane and environmental costs in the process. The transfer of production from the US (or Europe) to Asia drags the financial costs down by transferring a big part of them upon people (workers getting paid way less and having working conditions way worse than we have) and the environment (the norms being way less restrictive there and the distance meaning a huge amount of pollution due to freight). The question about how making the production and products more eco friendly is never asked, but the one about how it is possible to produce a maximum of good quality plastic pieces and sell them for an affordable (financial) price always is. I hear you mention the impact on publisher's lives (who are workers too), though, but I guess you both are either publisher or someone who gets to know a lot of publishers and creators but none of you have the same relationship with Chinese factory workers. Which makes it natural to tell your audience to have empathy for the publishers (and that's a good thing) while not considering for a second the price others have to pay, daily, so we can throw dice and push little miniatures on a board. You also seem to not relate the increase of shipping prices and the impact our predatory system has on nature. Which is a huge blind spot. Last but not least, stating that there is ol'good capitalism that gave us so better lives versus nationalism, and that's it, is a really simplistic and binary way to approach systemic organization. It forbids to think the system by imposing a over-simplified base to the discussion, which could be so much deeper otherwise.
It is possible to make high quality board games at a reasonable price in North America. Some small independent developers are figuring it out. One already has and will be launching a new generation board game in 2023 on KS or Backerkit CF. To anyone who watches YT channels like BGC, you will not suffer long. Support these small developers/publishers hard for the next few years. If they are talking about building partner relationships to manufacture in North America, support them as much as you can. They will carve the path ahead. Help them bring you the games you love.
One more note on nationalism. You can’t do everything - there are always trade offs. You guys touched on this with the tech vs manufacturing comments, but it goes further. Suppose we decide to restore some manufacturing (which is happening, btw.). Should we make minis for games or PPE (personal protective equipment) for the medical profession? And note that unemployment is currently 3.6%, which means if we make more of either (or both) we have to give up something else. Should we shop producing vaccines? Wheat (an iffy option with Russia blocking grain shipments from Ukraine), or EVs? One thing I deal with at work all the time is ho involved the US should be in industry for national security needs. If we went to war, we can only make so many guided munitions per year. We could up surge capacity, but that means maintaining more productive capacity in peacetime, which means convincing Congress and taxpayers to support a larger defense budget. All of this seems like a tangent, and it is, but it is board game adjacent. Remember, the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, and all that. You want more game components produced here, be prepared to replace some current high-profit industries with low profit industries. And if you want more production here for nationalism purposes, should it be for games or national security? Insurance against pandemics (vaccine production)? We can’t do it all. Immigration will let us do more, but even then we can’t do it all. China doesn’t make much in the weary of computer chips.
@@zenster1097 goods are not about price. Price (in the USA) is just green pieces of paper (technically cloth, but ok) with pictures of dead white guys on it. Prices describe relative trade-offs between goods. When markets world well (I.e., satisfy the conditions of “perfect competition”), the prices are efficient, which is a very desirable property. But many markets don’t satisfy these conditions.
Here is a radical idea to get costs back down again. Stop filling boxes with air! As we have learned on this channel, dimensional size matters with shipping at every leg of the trip. Bigger boxes take more material, materials which have gone up in price. Bigger boxes are not environmentally friendly in any way. We need to change the mindset that small boxes mean low on strategy or not premium.
The problem isn't as much shipping prices, it's more total price and how obscure it is to find that price. Because of the publisher subsidizing a lot people got used to easy pricing. Now with VAT, Shipping, MSRP vs Crowdfunding price, exclusive stretch goals, it's no longer an easy decision for the consumer. It was a simple value proposition before but now it's very hard to figure out what the value proposition is for the consumer. It feels like all the extra costs are hidden fees even though they aren't. And given prices have gone up which had to happen, the amount of FOMO that is pushed in marketing will cause more people to complain when they can't justify the price. Marketing should be to show how much more value there is than the cost, FOMO should be used but only to push over the edge, not the entire marketing strategy.
Manufacturing in the US could reduce the cost of freight but it does not eliminate it unless you plan not to sell to Europe or Asia. The question is also where is that work force coming from. The reality of manufacturing at the moment is that labor is hard to come by. That is before you even factor in the cost differential between the labor in China vs the labor in the US. As long as that disparity exists there is no ability to gain footing in certain markets. The truth is we abhor the wages in China but love the prices they bring about.
I’m hearing a lot of “no one wants manufacturing jobs”, “we decided as a country to focus on tech jobs and forget manufacturing”, etc. and I question that characterization. People were quick to leave manufacturing jobs because they were low pay and poor conditions. In sectors where that isn’t the case, car manufacturing, aerospace manufacturing and tech manufacturing for example there isn’t a shortage of workers. Those jobs are generally more prestigious than other manufacturing jobs and have decent pay and conditions. Even in these cases though if we look at car manufacturing a lot of those jobs disappeared and once again it’ not because of the workers but because those companies realized they could make it cheaper elsewhere. I wholeheartedly agree that this isn’t a boardgame problem and it isn’t so simple as moving it here because the current infrastructure doesn’t support for various reasons I just think it’s important to be careful about the framing here. To fix this issue we would need years of direct investment in the industry, likely by governments or giant seed companies and it would be more expensive and inferior quality at first for sure but the country didn’t decide to abandon manufactoring, companies made that choice for us by taking away jobs and offering shotty conditions and non competitive pay
Surprised to hear that line mentioned as it gave me pause too. Especially since he mentioned just before that comment many of the same points you brought up.
As someone who lives in neither Europe or USA, manufacturing in USA would stop me buying boardgames anything other than retail. My experience with international deliveries from the USA is more miss than hit, and that's even before we start talking price.
Really enjoyed this and haven't seen content like this on other channels that I watch. Very interesting. As much as I love board games it is at the end of the day a luxury product. Often we could get years more value out of the games we already own. As was said as long as we keep spending money then there is little incentive to reduce price and sadly it might get to the point where smaller companies are forced out. Culture change is even harder to achieve than industry change. Thanks again.
In an global economy, where your customers are located all over the world, Manufacturers/publishers have to balance where items are made for the best price, the best way way to get products to a global market for the best price. This is difficult for established companies. How much more difficult is this process for small publishers/game makers, many of whom are passionate creators but don't have a business/ logistics/marketing background? And don't have the inroads in shipping that people with years of experience in it might have.
I bought Stardew Valley and I'm perfectly fine with what I paid (full retail) and the quality and quantity of what was in the box. Personally I'm more than willing to sacrifice a small amount of component quality (for now) and pay a bit more (for now) when I balance those things against the (human) costs of doing business in China. While I do appreciate the arguments about why US manufacturing has long wait times, and the materials that they can get are limited, those things naturally will change over time if more and more companies choose to do business on-shore. Those arguments also hold less weight as the prices for Chinese processed goods continue to climb anyway, and continue to take longer and longer to deliver.
I think you are right once they start then the products will follow, but who is the first companies to take the loss at first? once it is moved and running for a time then other companies will follow but it is a long road to wgt there
@@timfrench1333 Well, some already are. Stardew Valley was specifically mentioned in the video, and there are others. If we as consumers really want to see it happen then we need to seek them out and show them our support. One thing that really sticks out to me is that he claims to pull a 30% profit margin. 30% is a MASSIVE profit margin. Successful businesses generally run a 7-10% margin. Some of his reasoning also doesn't add up as he claims he sets some of that money aside and lets it sit in order to cover potential increased shipping costs. If that's the case then companies like this already have the capability and capacity to spend a little more on manufacturing. Ultimately, to reiterate, money talks. I'm just one person, but I'll go out of my way to buy games produced in the US. I used to buy Victory Point Games both for myself and to give as gifts because I loved that they did everything themselves, in house. The component quality was wildly lower than you'd find in a huge-budget KS pumping out massive minis in China, but the games were still just as fun.
So I understand that we as the United States have somewhat collectively chosen to have a more management style economy and I’m on board with the theory that specialization not just as a person but a country benefits the worldwide economy, but why China? Mexico has at least gotten fairly good at making cars. The Northern States are pretty linked to the US for their economy
I backed hike the board game because they clearly said in the campaign that they produce in Europe. A small new company with a nice small game invented and produced in Europe - cool
I'd like to note that profits as it's being used mainly for indy publishers is essentially paying workers and maybe another print run? This isn't the same thing as paying the CEO thousands of times more than actual workers and killing jobs to make the line go up.
When you spread the freight increase across all backers per unit, it does not warrant CMON doubling or trippling shipping... The vat and shipping subsidy excuse does not warrant that kind of increase.
A good example of "less than ideal quality" in punch-board, box, cards, etc. is: Scooby-Doo: Escape from the Haunted Mansion. I'm not sure if it was printed in the US, but from soup to nuts, this game is of subpar quality
Okay Alex, I just found your calling in life…you can thank me later 😎 You should organize a think tank for Board games. But seriously, it would really be special if you could get experts from different view points and angles to discuss the ‘1st world issues’ of board gaming. For example, having someone that could explain logistics would have been amazing in this discussion. Maybe a publisher like Stronghold Games (if they still produce games in the US). You had the business angle and experience with freight and dealing with China. Ambitious? Yes, but so are you! 😉. Think of it “‘Roundtable Discussions: Tabletop’ hosted my Alex Radcliffe and published by Boardgameco. Taking on the hobby’s and industry’s most difficult challenges. Breaking down the complexity and offering up solutions. Solving our board game woes, one discussion at a time.” Ooo…I have goosebumps. 🤓😄
In effect it comes down to consumer behavior. We are addicted to lower price points and higher quality, regardless of the environmental or human (e.g., Chinese poverty-level wages) costs. Most consumers just don't think about these costs, which is a fault of our wider education and political systems. As a result, publishers are stuck having to go the China manufacturing route. Of course, this kind of attitude is also built into modern US capitalism across the board. Environmental and worker wage costs are not calculated into our systems.
That's definitely part of it. The other part is over-regulated US based companies. Small companies struggle to compete while large companies get subsidies, lobby, or can afford to deal with all the red-tape.
A company can't just come in and do cheaper shipping as the ports are currently overloaded. You need a company to come in and stand up new ports all over the world and that is the hard part, these ports are large and require land. Having more ships makes the ports more busy. A few ships are skipping ports because the wait times to unload are too long.
I loved the quote "want families playing board games", think it is almost a need in today's society as a way for families to be families. Loved this subject and explanations that I xan share with friends and students
I think this video did a great job laying out the challenges of doing it, not that we ‘can’t’. If you are going to solve a problem, you first need to be very informed on what the problem is.
@@cfosburg Yes for the most part they did a good job. But I think other factors will bring manufacturing back. And this can be part of it. Unless you say we can’t do it today so we never can. Which is the sentiment I kept hearing. I get that’s it’s hard. I don’t think it’s improbable.
I'm not sure the talk about nationalism and choosing to move manufacturing really is relevant. Given good evidence that the fabric of global trade is unravelling, it's not about choosing where to manufacture and nitpicking relative costs. It's about having board games manufactured in quantity at all vs having pricier board games and a decent amount of them. This entire discussion was under the assumption that what is past will continue to be (i.e. manufacturing + transport makes China an option and the best one). Will that continue as we go through this decade? I wouldn't be so sure. It may very well be the case that if you want board games manufactured in any reasonable volume and variety, you're going to look elsewhere even if not the US (and even if it'll be more costly and less quality). Therefore, I'd put the question less as "US or China better?" and more as "more expensive board games or not many board games at all?". Board gamer demand will determine which side of that balance wins out, and if more expensive games win and the US is the best place, that's where it'll move. Nationalism in this potential outcome has nothing to do with it, just natural self-interest.
I think something completely absent from this discussion is the environmental impact of having games (as well as everything else) made in China vs America when a majority of the audience is Americans. Not to mention the fact we use plastic so extensively in them. It’s not just about capitalism anymore, it’s also about whether or not we have a world to live comfortably on in 30-40 years.
A very needed video to give people perspective. "Make it here" sounds good until you get to the hundreds of thousands in startup costs for factories. The lets add more ocean logistics idea is even more ludacris, the startup costs would be in the millions and its not like you can go down the street and buy one of those boats at a dealership.
I blame partially the greed of some companies and the greed of people in different industries. When the heads of companies can make up to 500x what their workers are making and still trying to make make more and more profit at the expense of the workers, there is an issue. I know there are companies out there that aren't trying to maximize the profits for the top but actually care about the workers and are trying to make sure everyone is able to live.
Hey guys thanks for the thought provoking video. As a general rule of thumb I think we all have to be less dependent on stuff that comes from across the globe. Either that, or we have to make hydrogen engines work.... because it's not just the cost of shipping that ain't coming down - it's the temperature on this planet as well....
On ships. Shipbuilding is VERY volatile. Let’s say ships last for 33 years. If there is a global demand for shipping that supports 100 ships, on average 3 need to be built every year to maintain a global fleet of 100. That’s your entire shipbuilding industry. If global demand is rising every year, so the number of ships needed grows 1% a year, the entire shipbuilding industry maintains a capacity for 4 ships. If a recession or Covid hits, and global shipping declines by 3-4%, that’s means shipping firms need 3-4 fewer ships, so they just cancel orders and retire their current aged ships. That’s a 100% decline in shipbuilding!
It seems like there may be a niche for a board game publisher who can creatively source local components. I’m thinking similarly to high end restaurants and breweries using local ingredients. It might not be plastic and cardboard, maybe something else? Recycled electronic components, agricultural or forestry based components?
Shipping is a cyclical industry. We will be gong back to 6k. As a reminder, they were breaking up ships in 2020 due to low demand and right now the shipping construction industry is booming.
Great discussion! I'm hopeful that these issues will also drive some innovation in the space, instead of more "samey" type games. Maybe we can get smaller, more condensed games that do more with less.
You are talking to the wrong people. Talk to a manufacturing expert with Asian experience. Someone like.....me. 15 years in Asia working with various multinational companies in production from pharmaceuticals, electronics, aerospace, etc. Asia is not necessarily cheaper production with modern equipment and technology which can subvert labour costs greatly. The quality control and efficiency systems in Asia are nowhere near what Europe and America achieve which can save also save costs. In summary, the US can absolutely produce board games domestically at competitive prices. All it requires is a dedicated will to do it.
you won't manufacture in USA, because nobody in USA would work for chinese wages. average Amazon warehouse worker (where they are hyperoptimized) makes on average 16 USD/hour (same as average factory worker). senior (!) factory worker in china makes 2.9 USD/day. enough said. and there are people crying how THEY subsidize chinese 13 % VAT
Made in America= 150%+ increase in shipping costs to the rest of the world. That is not including the increase in production cost. Products will be unviable for much of the world, so USA only will mean smaller print runs, so a further increase in price to produce and a loss of sales for the companies. If they want to make up lost international sales, they will need even larger margins.
Thanks for that frank discussion. However, is there a way to begin a movement toward Western Hemisphere production? It has to be bad for the environment to move product around on these ships. Can James elaborate on the environmental impact of manufacturing in China?
As a European, the idea that "made in the USA" means anything as far as quality goes is a joke.
Making something in the US will reduce shipping costs in North America but doesn't make much difference to the relevant other markets and the additional production costs won't be compensated with a quality increase, probably be made to a lesser standard.
As an American, 'made in the USA' always meant it cost more and wasn't necessarily better or more innovative. And if you don't have the money to 'support' made in the USA, you're forced to support other manufactures. It's just logistics of survival.
What I have read is that the plastics producers in the USA don't want to produce toys because the margins are too small and the volume is too low. The opportunity cost is too high, so they produce medical/capital implements. They don't produce consumer side items.
The cost for a game company to build the infrastructure/factory in which they can produce miniatures is cost prohibitive. It would require massive money up front.
That all said, American's are not nationalist with their consumer goods. Wal Mart used to be the "Made in America" store, and their colors were red, white, and blue. Their sales were stagnant as consumers shifted. We all know now that the majority of items on Big Box retail shelves are made over seas. Their stores are now painted a beige/tan color.
To one point you made, I don't agree that people DON'T want industrial jobs. People very much DO. A HUGE percentage do. They just can't find them because those jobs were all pushed overseas, into Mexico, into Canada. GM didn't close factories because they couldn't find employees. They laid off 10's of thousands so they could make larger profit margins as they became more capital intensive and outsourced. There is a reason that Wal Mart and Amazon are the biggest employers in the USA.
Not much left in Canada either sadly. Very rare to meet someone working in a factory.
Agree with losing manufacturing, it wasn't that people didn't want to do those jobs... they didn't want to do them if they didn't get paid appropriately. Manufacturing was moved purely to increase profits for CEOs and Stockholders. Which are different than 'profit' of an indy board game company to paid their workers and maybe another order of games.
James thinks one way, and he's trying to rationalize his position, but I disagree.
1) People don't want to pay 30-50% more per game. Well, it's already happening but with shipping. On Kickstarter, sometimes you pay 100% of the base game on shipping if you add add-ons.
2) The quality would be worse. Yeah, at first, but it will improve over time. Should we not even try? Look at Terraforming Mars. It's the worst game quality I've seen, yet a beloved game.
3) Americans aren't interested in manufacturing jobs. I work at a factory. We "manufacture". Where does that thought process come from?! People will do whatever it takes to provide for their family.
All of his arguments seem sound, but they can easily be picked apart. Add to that that China is our #1 adversary. How about we stop strengthening their economy?
There are certainly counterpoints, valid ones, to be made to some arguments - its all conjecture at this point. In reference to your 3rd point, as an employer myself, though not in the USA, the problem is more that in order to make the numbers work, manufacturing cannot pay wages adequate for first world service economies, or at least not for a while (until investment is done, stuff written off, and production optimized). And then there is the "problem" of "made in the USA" meaning you have to ship from both coasts to other markets as well. That is going to generate a lot of additional shipping cost too.
Maybe next time you could ask James why he was antagonistic and rude to KoA when Michael brought up that other companies had cheaper container costs but was interested and polite when the guy from Monolith said the same thing.
I like Michael, but I entirely disagree with his take on all of this.
Interesting to watch the King of Average video where this guy cancelled him for calling out some data that showed inconsistencies in what companies are reporting about shipping costs.
I remember, not long ago, the board games were manufactured in Germany. It was easy to deliver in Europe and more affordable than manufacturing and distribution from the US. With all the delays from China and the logistics sector craziness, it may be an excellent time to discuss this topic.
There are board game manufacturers in Germany and they won't go away. But their capacity is limited and usually booked out by German board game companies.
Other board game manufacturers, that I heard of, sit in Poland and Czech Republic.
United against hate, unless you disagree with him. James is part of a facebook group that spent the last 3 days attacking KOA and then banning him from the group for presenting a different point of view. KOA dared to go after CMON in a video for ripping off customers.
The guy is the epitome of hypocrisy and a disgrace for the community.GJ Alex bringing quality people on your show...
@@lastburning I couldn''t give 2 fs for KOA.KOA is not the subject here.
The subject is that a publisher running a board game forum, that supposingly should allow free speech, banned a user that brought into light information that companies use predatory methods and lies to justify overcharges.
THIS as a consumer and fan of the hobby SHOULD worry you, both for the people that you follow for their opinions and for the companies that you decide to give your money to.....but again it doesnt as I see...kepp sucking the KOA is a douche kool aid
@@lastburning You should watch his vid then, because their are facts he brings up that proves that he isn't and that James is.
Domestic manufacturing is not “nationalism”. Egregious misuse of this word in every political/historical/economic context.
Pride in knowing something is made with American hands is a nationalist ideal. A good one as well (my bias as an American), yet also a seperate concept from consumer savings. I took this as his differential rather than a negative/political/condescending connotation for what it is worth.
@@wookiebarista No it’s not anything good to be prideful about. That’s the problem with nationalism, if people actually understood the term. The Nazis also took great pride in their manufacturing. You produce things at home because it provides a comparative advantage versus free trade. It’s that simple and it’s basic Econ 101. Furthermore, to do something because of pride and not economics is anti-free market. If it’s in someone’s economic interest to produce domestically, they will. It has nothing to do with pride.
By your rationale the Olympics should remove affiliation to country and only focus on the performance of individual athletes. The comparison we are debating was between economics and sociology. I see how you take the word nationalist though so perhaps a different term to better describe the sociological phenomena that is the sense of pride one feels when they, or those they know, create something of worth. As long as that reverence is the joy of making and doesn't cross the line to irrational exceptionalism I think we can agree that is alright. Celebrating the upcoming 4th of July is alright as well; however flawed we may be. I can accept though that the term nationalist is loaded for some and I could have expressed what I interpreted from the conversation and your comment differently. Hope this did a better job. Have a good one.
@@wookiebarista I don’t see the anology with the Olympics…You can produce something domestically for reasons NOT associated with a nationalistic ideal also. It just has nothing to do with the factors in determining whether or not it is beneficial to do so. And that type of logic can only serve to make markets more inefficient, if you were to put a mandate on domestic manufacturing, for example. It’s a poor way to run an economy, which is why people thrive under free trade when given the opportunity to act in their best interests.
It is necessarily Nationalist to not want foreigners to make your consumer goods. Now, it is possible to have an Internationally Socialist approach to global trade which could promote an increase in each nation’s domestic production to reduce spending resources and most specifically carbon based fuels on shipping to triage the coming climate calamity. But just wishing that the last 70+ years of (post) industrialization and globalization hadn’t happened or could immediately be reversed is, again, a Nationalist fantasy.
Never met someone who say make everything in the USA that can explain why the US market is more imporatant than the Europe market other than 'I am in US and that is all I care about'. It just doesn't work it your buyers are global unless you make it in 7 different places. In practical terms if people go down that route it is far more likly to be made in Europe than America, wages are lower in Eastern Europe and Europe has better transport infrastructure including port capacity and railways.
Seen king of average complain when games have lower shipping costs in Europe than America when being made by European firms, it seems to be a mind set that many Americans have.
@@tobiaswhaley7030 yeah but USA have higher wages, if only comparing $ to $. $20 for European is a lot more than the same amount for the USA citizen.
It’s all about exports and imports. Most people who say statements like the one you pointed out, don’t know or realize, or understand how that works.
I need a citation for all of those claims.
If you make it here it doesn't even need to cross the big pond in between and we have wide highway systems that grow cross country. Don't trivialize American infrastructure.
And where in Europe? Britain has congested roadways and awkward roads.
It’s odd that someone who’s entire social media platform is spotlighting marginalized people, chooses to use Chinese labor to produce their games.
Thanks for the video Alex. Hudsons view is somewhat one sided on this topic. Try interviewing some other devs and you might get an opposing, if not at least sliding to the other side of the line view. He is very sensitive on criticisms to his kickstarters and tends to call out ones who question any of the aspects of his campaigns, either cost, quality, art, etc. Don’t take my word for it, all you have to do is read comments on KS and FB to see. I’m a backer of over 300 board game campaigns and although I like a lot of the products his company makes, level engagement is not a strong point of them/him. Just my 2 cents
I run a logistics company dealing with ocean freight. I can add a tiny bit of knowledge here - the reason why prices are not going to go down a lot again is partially because the big carriers have understood they CAN ask that much for it, and there is a certain level of, lets say, agreement to not undercut while the situation is unstable. Since this started over a year ago, the massive profits have been partially reinvested in new ships, replacement containers and, sometimes, port upgrades. This means they ll need to make more than they used to to justify those investments too.
When any product goes up in price is always harder to go down in price or back to the same price.
The problem with prices is not capitalism - it's government regulations and oversight. In 2018 with regulations lessened, the US was exporting oil for the first time in 75 years. In 2022 with regulations reinstated and pipelines shutdown, we're at $5/gallon for gas and begging the Saudi's for a discount...
without regulation you will have exploitation.
@@gasa5251 just like China
@@gasa5251 Look around. You think our current situation isn't exploitation? What do you think of lobbyists in bed with corrupt politicians?
Exploitation can exist in any circumstance with human beings involved - however with more power and control, the higher the chance for corruption. A truly free market has less of a chance for exploitation than an overly regulated one does.
The more heavily regulated an industry, the more big businesses weed out all competition. THAT'S exploitation.
Hey, it's that dishonest guy that bans and insults people if they disagree with him! Next time find somebody respectable to interview. His opinions have no value.
he is presenting a valid point here, you need to keep an open mind and it sounds like the playing field is not level for everyone.
@@gasa5251 I would grant him that courtesy... if he granted it to others. Which he repeatedly has not.
@@Dstinct Or perhaps some egos can't handle anyone posing legitimate questions?
@@Dstinct The fact of the matter here is James here quoted prices for 1 of his containers at 33 thousand, however others have quoted paying far less. KOA vid didn't even point him out specifically, he was talking about cmon. However in the Facebook group, James was attacking KOA for being a liar, when KOA responded with his info, his posts were blocked. However when someone attacked KOA calling him a dick, the post wasn't blocked. Why is that the case? Then when monolith chimed in about their containers being around 12 thousand, James said that was interesting and wanted info about it, but continued in other posts attacking KOA for being a liar, even though he was just presented with evidence that proved KOA was telling the truth. KOA even reached out to James to talk about stuff, with no response. Yet James still attacked KOA in the Facebook group for not opening up and talking. So your accusing KOA of being an antagonistic pita, however in this case James was the one that attacked KOA in this facebook group, when the vid didn't have anything specifically talking about him or his company. This is a classic bait and switch tactic by James, when your proven wrong, but you don't want to be seen as wrong, so he gets KOA banned making him look like the bad guy, and then deletes all of KOA's posts on the group, so everyone just sees one side. However KOA's newest vid exposes James, by showing all the posts.
It is not nationalism for many of us I think. There is much wrong with what the Chinese government does with its money and for any game produced in China, a significant portion goes into their pockets. I would prefer that production shift away from feeding a political system as morally uncaring as the CCP. Even if it does mean more money for lower quality. Sometimes sacrifices need to be made to do the right thing.
If I could like this comment a hundred times I would
Like the Us government better use the
Money to wage war against other nation. What a good use of money.
Great video!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love getting to see the perspective from folks in the industry. It is really wild how much the board game industry has changed in such a short amount of time. I would take a pay cut and quit my job today to work at a warehouse in the US that manufactured Frosthaven.
The entire video ignores the fact that a vast majority of game creators and publishers are not Americans but mostly Europeans: Awaken Realms, Iello, Ravensburger, Lucky Duck, Czech Game Éditions, a lot of companies under Asmodee, Game Brewer etc...
Then game designers Lacerda, Rosenberg, Knizia, Pfister, Cathala, Maublanc, Wallace, Friese, etc.
And for sure one would not produce one's games in different countries for different markets! So shipping is unavoidable.
I encourage anyone actually interested in the economic facts behind manufacturing, listen to some Thomas Sowell. (I wish he was our president...) You can also read a children's book "The Tuttle Twins: The Miraculous Pencil".
Why would people listen to an economist with a track record of being correct?
What a great - and vital - video. Great job! Reminds me of a survey here in Canada, that asked whether people would buy Walmart house brand t-shirts if they were made in Canada. They had an economist calculate that the same t-shirt that retails at $8 CAD when made in Bangladesh, would have to retail at over $35 CAD when made in Canada. And that was IF the Canadian factory could get enough subsidies and find enough employees to run efficiently. The survey showed ~80% of respondents would not pay the $35. Initially, around 85% said they wanted the t-shirts made in Canada. Until they saw the figures.
Not surprising cause people who go to Walmart usually need to shop there due to money issues. My own brother can't afford elsewhere and Amazon has killed almost all other affordable options (along with Walmart). Yet people will still buy expensive shirts in boutique even though they are made by slave labour. But yes, it's the majority of the population that makes the economy go so things need to be affordable for them. I worry a lot to see groceries go up so much. We will make a bigger donation to the food bank going forward, more people will need access.
A note that as of June, freight charges have gone done to under $10k for East Asia to America West Coast from $12-14k in May, $16k in April. East Asia to America East Coast is also down to $12k in June from $16k in May and $17k in April. For the record, these are prices that I could personally pay (I logged into my account and verified that I could book a 40' container on a ship at those prices). The problem with international shipping is just not boats, but ports capacity. As to the larger "board game" costs, I think the main problem is that there are too many companies producing too many products in too small batches. This is the classic microeconomic situation where there isn't a huge barrier to entry and there's a lot of competition: long term profits will trend towards zero.
Loved the conversation, James was the first guy in the industry that I met. He is down to earth, a straight shooter, and simply a great guy. You guys are both great advocates for board gaming! Keep up the great work and love the collaborations
Container freight is NOT still at $26k each. That's not true.
Great video gentlemen. As someone working in the Tool & Die industry in North America, we have the tooling capabilities, there is just not the production investment, which would likely need the biggest players in the board gaming industry to take a stack in. Why would they reinvent the wheel though when it's running fairly smoothly across the pond, with just some new bumps introduced to get the games to their consumers.
Unfortunately because of those bumps, I'm only backing games that I know I won't make it to retail. While I'd like to support the publishers directly through crowdfunding, when exchange rates come into play ($1US = $1.30CAN), it doesn't make sense as a Canuck, Chris George isn't wrong. Backing a $100US game would be $130CAN now + shipping, while if I wait for it to come out in a year, my local retailer will be selling it for $100-$110CAN with no shipping costs. Hmmmm...
In fact, I'm focused now on searching & tracking down existing proven games that I've been wanting to add to my collection and buying them now, as I know pricing increases are not going to be going away and are likely to get worse for the next few years. I'm reaching out to stores in Europe, that even with their ridiculous shipping costs are selling games cheaper than in North America or have stock in games no longer available here. I was chatting with a store in Romania this week.
I'm also of the mindset that Acrylic or cardboard standees are better than minis based simply on storage requirements, rather than just price. Something I know James is really having to consider with his upcoming projects.
I've really enjoyed your two recent collaborative videos, keep them coming.
I think the self entitlement problem we have right now would iron itself out if we did have some nice big factories for people to work in.
Yeah but people act like they’re too good for factory work these days sad to say.
China also has slaves and poor working conditions because standards aren’t equally applied
Thank you for making this video!
Absolutely!
Alex and James, this was an excellent video! I am so impressed with and grateful for your content and very much appreciated the deep dive on this topic, which is very relevant to us right now!
Thank you for the awesome conversation and insights!! Worthy of the time!
I posted this in Boardgame Spotlight, but think it’s fair to post it here as well:
I’m sure the video is great, measured and balanced as I would expect from Alex & James (I will watch it later).
However, as a non-USA citizen, the relative ambiguity of the meaning of the title instantly raises my heckles - bear with me and I will try to explain (it may be covered in the video but, given the title - some people may not make it that far)
I’m not sure if anyone who isn’t based in the US and is part of the hobby can empathise totally with this, but “why don’t we just make games in the USA?” Is a question which is thrown around a lot - understandably from people based in the States. Sure, America constitutes a large portion of the boardgaming industry but the majority of the boardgaming audience is outside of the US - so when I see a statement like the title of the video (and it is a statement, not a question) it effectively alienates anyone who doesn’t have a Zip Code or a 401k (admittedly, I don’t really know what a 401k is - but I think it’s a wholly American reference).
Now, I don’t think the title is totally clickbaity, but it is skirting the edges of it. If I didn’t know the creator I could think I’m in for a jingoistic piece about American superiority in manufacturing and F@&k the rest of the world, rather than a balanced discussion.
The title is marginalising (I’m sure that’s not the intent), as it’s not phrased as a question. I am assuming however, that this was a deliberate stance to not phrase it a question?
The same way I (and others who solo game) feel when someone says “why play a solo game when you can play a video game?” - it provokes me into wanting to make a statement about why it’s an insular view and not considerate of the community as a whole.
All this is based from the title alone, I haven’t watched the content yet (I will). I will reiterate, if I didn’t know Alex’s content and his views - based on the title - I would angrily not watch this and see it as another way to marginalise and pigeon hole the hobby.
I’m having a cranky day today but I think this would have triggered me whatever kind of day I’m having.
I completely respect what you're saying. The video is purely about why not make them in China. But admittedly I let my own biases about the us being an alternative color the way I approach the conversation. I'm not even american, I'm Canadian...but I do view the US as the single largest consumption hub of board games and so approached it from that angle.
you could have just watched the video rather than typing out this long-winded response complaining about how the title triggers you....
The part of the equation that you didn't mention is that, since Reagan, domestic wages have stagnated, even as profits have gone up. All of that money has gone into the pockets of fewer and fewer wealthy owners.
If the profits from American companies were more evenly distributed to the workers through wage increases, people wouldn't mind paying more for their products.
Manufacturing products overseas (where they allow drastically lower worker wages/benefits) has allowed the working class of the USA to still continue to afford products that would be unaffordable if made domestically.
The long term fix is to fight back against corporate greed and increase the salaries of the vast majorities of workers through legislation and unionization. If workers are making more, they won't mind paying more. But if their wages are stagnated while their bosses are raking in record profits, they'll be stretching their dollars further and further.
If the current trends continue, the board game industry will likely collapse because Jeff Bezos only needs 1 copy of Tidal Blades 3 and his thousands of employees won't have enough disposable income to buy themselves a copy.
“If workers are making more, they won’t mind paying more”
Isn’t that a wash? If you make a little more and prices go up a little more, who is winning?
@@dansioui9819 Well let's say a $50,000 salary becomes $100,000 and a $100 game becomes $200. Not a wash.
You're right, it's not simple and the path is complex. But it's good to hear a creator that understands the possibility. I'm a truck driver and have been to many manufacturing plants. Board games are created mostly by printing and tool and dye. That exists all over North America. Right now their capacity is limited by demand and they focus on legacy manufacturing with clients that need parts and products for things still produced here, like vehicles and machinery. Many of the manufacturers you'd need are hard to find because they barely have functional websites let alone SEO. Chinese manufacturers benefit from a centralized system and boutique process where they hold your hand all they way through the process. This has removed so many barriers that finding the right solution to the right price is 1000x easier. If someone could update our old system to be more robust and create an Amazon yellow pages like Alibaba a culture of consultants and salespeople would grow around it. These manufacturers could expand and eventually the prices would go down to something similar to 2019. But it takes several companies with a willingness to aquire some more risk in the short-term for long-term stability. Of course the events of recent times may increase that willingness
Tough topic, Alex. Thanks for sharing and putting it out there.
Glad you enjoyed
Part of the problem is in China they pay the workforce a very small amount of money, which results in a cheaper product, were on the other hand in the Us you are required a minimum wage for all your workers. Most companies move over to china so they don't have to pay much greater amounts for the large workforce if they were in the US. So even if it was able to be made in the US, I don't think companies would cause it still would be cheaper to do it in china.
As a side note, you board game companies need to be more transparent about your numbers, not only to consumers but to each other, because sounds like you might be able to get better deals then some of you are getting. You said for your company it was 33 thousand and change for 1 container, and Alex said 18 - 25 thousand. However while the numbers have increased, Ive had board game companies give me numbers much lower then these, one said their container was 7 thousand, another in the 15 thousand dollar range. Both of which are lower then what is being claimed by others. So if yours are much higher, your probably getting swindled by the company your dealing with.
Exactly. We enable their human rights violations by not paying more.
Always enjoying these industry videos. For James I also think currently backers are ok with you not being CMON with a crazy number of stretch goals. We just want a fun game even if there is less plastic. Looking forward to bloodstone relaunch and all those dice
Great discussion Alex and James!
I'd love to see North America step up it's manufacturing sector for board games, but an Industry doesn't happen overnight.
The was a decrease in Manufacturing jobs, but lots of factors played into that; Unions vs Federal Govt, the push towards College Degrees, the media glamorization of white collar jobs. It's partially that Americans looked for other jobs, but there was significant pressure to move those jobs out of the US to cheaper locations. (Trade skills also fell into this hole)
I think you both did a great job of covering the myriad of points on the topic.
One of the things I was a bit surprised not to hear mentioned was Andrew Navaro's Earthborn Rangers, for which sustainability, and regional manufacturing was a central point to their campaign
Do you think American workers would work for the same pay as Chinese workers? I doubt the economics would ever stack up, let alone the investment required, then what happens if or when those containers come down in price... how risky is that investment?
I’m interested to know what average percentage of backers are in the US? How much of the market would actually benefit from US based manufacturing? For this to work it would need to be localized manufacturing all over the planet for those of us that are not in the US. Doesn’t sound like that is something sustainable as prices and quality could vary per region. As James mentioned this sounds like a consumption problem, we need to scale back on purchases. Companies need to scale back content to ship more product in fewer containers.
Instead of new manufacturing in US or Canada, the thing that may actually work is for a game company to partner with panda to see if they can open another mfr facility in Mexico. There may be tax advantages and, logistical savings, open up greater market for panda, faster production for game companies. Now that is a win win
I was waiting for this ty!
Great post. Informed. Interesting. Relevant. One thing I wanted to add is Mr. Hudson is correct that the U.S. saw tremendous losses in manufacturing from 80s through the 2000s (particularly from the 90s forward). But the causes didnt' start with Reagan in the 80s (and, I'm not defending Reagan, my politics are far-left of center). It was after WWII that America, feeling so secure in it's insane domination in manufacturing, decided to focus on techological innovation at the cost of manufacturing innovation. Subsidies, schooling, tax incentives, patents...all lined up to support the R&D of tech but not the RnD of manufacturing. Thus, in the lates 60s and 70s we saw Japan and Germany begin to dominate the production of new technologies that originated in the U.S. Germany, post WWII, built strong links between its industries and its Universities and Japan had a whole (I forget the term for it-- I think they have a name for it in their history books) revolution in product manufacturing.
And in the 90s/2000s the loss of manufacturing accelerated as the manufacturing fully transformed from (so-called) 'un-sklled' manufacturing jobs to 'skilled' manufacturing jobs...where...currently...China leads by almost 20% (I think) when it comes to R&D investment into skilled manufacturing tech and training labor. Automation alone killed off huge sectors of 'unskilled' labor in the U.S. but the new, specialized manufacturing infrastructures were built overseas and the U.S. got caught unprepared, but also complicit in being unprepared. E.g. The promise of NAFTA included a lot of 'retraining' and 'new infrastructure' that hasn't been properly realized.
But yeah. The strongest defenders of un-fettered, unregulated capitalism are often the same defenders of nationalism. The two don't fit. As long as workers in Mexico, or China, or the Mariana Islands can live off half the pay of workers in America, the jobs aren't coming back. Take the cost of anything (food, housing, medical...) and compare the increase of those goods/services since 1960 and compare it to the increase in wages during the same time period and the two don't reconcile. Despite the cost of wages in America, American wages are still suffering.
And the scary part is that American companies are now outsourcing the RnD of tech development itself, more and more.
unfettered capitalism is a scarey thing! hello Walmart, hello Amazon. Both of these (and plenty more) companies may provide cheaper prices initially .. but both also kill competition.. do do see how that is a good thing. Armstrong Hawkins - a great comment you have there!
In my opinion i still think that the freight costs should be included into the price of the game even if that means that on average price goes up. Shipping from distributing to front door should be what is paid in addition to and should be an average of the total price for equivalent orders divided by the number of those orders. Companies shouldn't be profiting off of this portion of the shipping.
wait, wait .. hold up .. freight costs ARE already included in the price of games. Game pricing is based on "landed cost", which is the price of manufacturing + freight to get that product to your distribution hub.
Distribution to your door ("last leg/last mile" shipping) is, typically, charged as an extra and is quite often (though increasingly less so) subsidized by the publisher so you pay less at their expense.
What a frickin great video!
Glad you enjoyed :)
Generally speaking, don't expect production cost decreases to decrease the price you're paying for games. Price is set by demand. For games in high demand, there's no reason to reduce price, unless they think they're at the wrong point on the supply/demand curve. Games that don't have big marketing campaigns attached to them should fall in price, however; but remember that the classic law of supply and demand says the price you pay is set by demand, not by cost.
Not to mention, they really classify as collector items, which increases the price as well!
If only you knew an economist who specializes in national security issues…
Seriously, well done on the board game side. There is a lot more about the capitalism vs nationalism, though. Most people don’t really understand what capitalism really is - it’s about competition, which means small businesses, not large industry-dominating firms (monopoly or oligarchy) that are inherently anti-competitive. That isn’t capitalism.
Much of the shipping problem is because of this. There has been consolidation in the industry, compounded by every larger ships (more efficient), but at the same time it means fewer ships, and fewer ports that can handle them. That means fewer shipping companies, and more pricing power. Hence higher prices. Covid accelerated this problem by forcing industry consolidation.
Except that it literally is capitalism. It's what capitalism has always been. Arguing otherwise is ignoring reality in favor of your delicate feelings. Capitalism will always lead to these that initially outcompeted stifling competition unless prevented to by non-market forces, via government regulations, for example.
Consolidation is inevitable with how capitalism has worked in the last few centuries.
@@fy8798 no. Pure capitalism has never existed, anywhere. Any more than pure socialism has.
In every “capitalist” society, what we actually have is a mix of capitalism and public institutions. Econ 101 sets up a myth of government vs private sector. But the reality is far more nuanced. You can’t have a national economy without a government supporting property rights. You can’t have a national government without an economy to make sure your border have shoes and ammunition. The relationship between Private and Publix sectors is symbiotic, not adversarial, as taught in Econ 101.
What people refer to as “capitalism” in political discourse is a perversion of what economists mean when they talk about market economics.
Everything you listed is by capitalist design. Eventually it gives way to smaller and smaller businesses controlling everything. It's actually capitalism working extremely well given on the record profits being reported by corporations. Industry consolidation was happening even before the pandemic. Covid only made things more apparent.
@@fy8798 Agreed. My guy was literally describing late stage capitalism.
Alex, love ya man. Really appreciate you taking a deep dive into the board game industry as a whole. Amazon has addicted us to free shipping, which has made us complicit in their work to destroy all their competitors when we gripe about shipping costs for kickstarted games (i'm as guilty as anyone). Sadly, since nearly all of our cultural decision making is based around squeezing out the last possible profits I'm sure none of this will change until making and shipping games from the other side of the world impacts profits enough. Oh, and then there's the environmental impact of all this!
Add to add to that, Amazon does not manufacture.
Fantastic topic.
Unfortunately a little too US centric approach, but I can understand it due to market size and you guys living there.
My thoughts as well. As an Australian I certainly hope they don't start making games at a higher price in the US and then I pay shipping as well.
Outstanding video.
Great guest. (Super knowledgeable, and well spoken). And great topic.
Keep up the good work. (Pat yourself on the back). 👍
The original Victory Point Games did a great job of bringing it all in house. Obviously not the same quality, but I really appreciated the homebrew approach.
Same. I actually used to look forward to the smoky smell of a new VPG punchboard.
Interesting conversation, that's for the video Alex.
James' point about companies making "samey" games can also come with an upside. If companies land that evergreen game that allows them to basically print money and they use some of that money to hire people and create some new and innovative games then we all win. I really don't mind a company milking a franchise as long as they add something new and they continue pushing the game envelope in other areas because they have the capital to do so.
One way companies could reduce costs is by not printing millions and millions of plastic miniatures and shipping them across the world. I'm sure there would be a market for a game that came with all the cards, boards, tokens, etc.... along with space for minis that you could print out yourself.
Then there's games like Zombicide which come around every few years with 6 surivors and between 60 and 70 zombies ...... to add to the +200 zombies I already have. These kind of sequel/ follow up games could be made bare bones and just provide extra game play rather than PLASTIC PLASTIC PLASTIC !!!!!!! but that goes against CMONs whole strategy
He referenced multiple times how with certainty the quality would be dramatically decreased in US vs China. I’m wondering why he says that? Isn’t it reasonable to think if we allocated for manufacturing again, we could easily fix the quality issue?
We'd get there, but we have very few workers skilled in this industry. From paper goods manufacturing, to printing, to die manufacturing, to die machine operation, to plastic manufacturing, to mold manufacturing, to mold injection machine manufacturing, to mold injection machine operation, to dice manufacturing, and the list goes on and on. We'd get there, sure. These are all learnable skills, but we don't currently have that infrastructure and it would take a little while at the least to bring up to the current quality.
There's some things changing. Siocast makes small batch miniature manufacturing much easier (look at what Reaper or Blck Anvil (I think?) are doing). Paper goods manufacturing might come back for some other industry.
Its the plastic industry over in America, the high quality ones are used for high quality products like medical supplies and such. The same plastic used in what's considered low quality entertainment product isn't even considered. They wouldn't even want to try to do it because they wouldn't get any value in it. Like their using this plastic in America for medical equipment for 1000 of dollars. So for an example in China they use the high quality plastic for mini's for around 1$-3$ a mini. In America if it was priced the same they wouldn't make any money off that compared to what they already make selling it to others. Also in America those same mini's would be priced at 11-13$ a mini, just because of the required minimum wage that America has. You do the math if anyone would be able to sell a board game with mini's priced like that.
If I win the Lotto, I'm making a not-for-profit manufacturing plant in the USA for board games.
Let's make them in the EU! Lookout and CGE do it. Eu has high quality standards and worker's rights.
Fantastic video. I do care about minis. I absolutely do care about quality. @Alex - I agree with your video "Bad Art is a Dealbreaker". I would rather spend more money to get a top quality product. I've missed out on a few "wanted" board games due to shipping but I'm not angry about it and I don't think I'm being "taken for a ride" i.e. CMON, Mythic, etc. This is how it is now. It's simply not feasible to create / expect the same quality of game in North America barring outliers. Again, excellent video and logic is logic and business is business :)
Still gotta ship the games to other countries. Only cost that goes away is ocean freight to US backers and you add ocean freight to some new countries. Anyone thinking that the difference between US wages and China wages is going to make up for that difference needs to share whatever they're smoking.
I liked you immediately upon seeing the d&d hat. Loved it.
Interview was fine, but why not just give your viewpoint without banning people and deleting their posts. Really disappointed that in our hobby, of all the hobbies, we cannot have an open exchange. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that there are bad actors or ill intent. I believe in fair market and I am not in any way opposed to people making a good living doing what they love. I have been happy during this pandemic to send extra funds to defray the costs of shipping to companies like Nemesis and then back their expansion. I did not back Marvel Zombies and don’t like the way CMON handled that situation, but I will back them again selectively if they create something I am interested in like more CDMD content.
I think this would have been a great video offering a different perspective and insight into the industry, but disappointed it came after banning, deleting other peoples opinions which seem to have had legitimate data points confirmed by others in the industry. I think both parties in this case may be speaking honestly because the reality is probably that companies are having mixed success negotiating their freight charges and I am sure the shipping companies are not transparent about their actual rates. Like everyone else they are getting whatever they can to make a living. We can’t have a dialog about that without banning people and hiding their posts? We can’t just admit not all companies are handling these new market dynamics transparently? I am not a CMON hater but they absolutely did their backers dirty with that Marvel Zombies campaign. I hope they learned from that and future campaigns don’t have shipping surprises, but the reality is for that campaign they could make the situation right at any point, even if that was just showing the math to justify the massive increase.
The discussion is interesting to listen to, thanks both oy you for that.
Also, I'm always amazed that, talking so much about costs, you never include the humane and environmental costs in the process. The transfer of production from the US (or Europe) to Asia drags the financial costs down by transferring a big part of them upon people (workers getting paid way less and having working conditions way worse than we have) and the environment (the norms being way less restrictive there and the distance meaning a huge amount of pollution due to freight). The question about how making the production and products more eco friendly is never asked, but the one about how it is possible to produce a maximum of good quality plastic pieces and sell them for an affordable (financial) price always is. I hear you mention the impact on publisher's lives (who are workers too), though, but I guess you both are either publisher or someone who gets to know a lot of publishers and creators but none of you have the same relationship with Chinese factory workers. Which makes it natural to tell your audience to have empathy for the publishers (and that's a good thing) while not considering for a second the price others have to pay, daily, so we can throw dice and push little miniatures on a board.
You also seem to not relate the increase of shipping prices and the impact our predatory system has on nature. Which is a huge blind spot.
Last but not least, stating that there is ol'good capitalism that gave us so better lives versus nationalism, and that's it, is a really simplistic and binary way to approach systemic organization. It forbids to think the system by imposing a over-simplified base to the discussion, which could be so much deeper otherwise.
It is possible to make high quality board games at a reasonable price in North America. Some small independent developers are figuring it out. One already has and will be launching a new generation board game in 2023 on KS or Backerkit CF. To anyone who watches YT channels like BGC, you will not suffer long.
Support these small developers/publishers hard for the next few years. If they are talking about building partner relationships to manufacture in North America, support them as much as you can. They will carve the path ahead. Help them bring you the games you love.
One more note on nationalism. You can’t do everything - there are always trade offs. You guys touched on this with the tech vs manufacturing comments, but it goes further. Suppose we decide to restore some manufacturing (which is happening, btw.). Should we make minis for games or PPE (personal protective equipment) for the medical profession? And note that unemployment is currently 3.6%, which means if we make more of either (or both) we have to give up something else. Should we shop producing vaccines? Wheat (an iffy option with Russia blocking grain shipments from Ukraine), or EVs?
One thing I deal with at work all the time is ho involved the US should be in industry for national security needs. If we went to war, we can only make so many guided munitions per year. We could up surge capacity, but that means maintaining more productive capacity in peacetime, which means convincing Congress and taxpayers to support a larger defense budget.
All of this seems like a tangent, and it is, but it is board game adjacent. Remember, the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone, and all that. You want more game components produced here, be prepared to replace some current high-profit industries with low profit industries. And if you want more production here for nationalism purposes, should it be for games or national security? Insurance against pandemics (vaccine production)? We can’t do it all. Immigration will let us do more, but even then we can’t do it all. China doesn’t make much in the weary of computer chips.
@@zenster1097 goods are not about price. Price (in the USA) is just green pieces of paper (technically cloth, but ok) with pictures of dead white guys on it.
Prices describe relative trade-offs between goods. When markets world well (I.e., satisfy the conditions of “perfect competition”), the prices are efficient, which is a very desirable property.
But many markets don’t satisfy these conditions.
Here is a radical idea to get costs back down again. Stop filling boxes with air! As we have learned on this channel, dimensional size matters with shipping at every leg of the trip. Bigger boxes take more material, materials which have gone up in price. Bigger boxes are not environmentally friendly in any way. We need to change the mindset that small boxes mean low on strategy or not premium.
The problem isn't as much shipping prices, it's more total price and how obscure it is to find that price. Because of the publisher subsidizing a lot people got used to easy pricing. Now with VAT, Shipping, MSRP vs Crowdfunding price, exclusive stretch goals, it's no longer an easy decision for the consumer. It was a simple value proposition before but now it's very hard to figure out what the value proposition is for the consumer. It feels like all the extra costs are hidden fees even though they aren't.
And given prices have gone up which had to happen, the amount of FOMO that is pushed in marketing will cause more people to complain when they can't justify the price. Marketing should be to show how much more value there is than the cost, FOMO should be used but only to push over the edge, not the entire marketing strategy.
Manufacturing in the US could reduce the cost of freight but it does not eliminate it unless you plan not to sell to Europe or Asia. The question is also where is that work force coming from. The reality of manufacturing at the moment is that labor is hard to come by. That is before you even factor in the cost differential between the labor in China vs the labor in the US. As long as that disparity exists there is no ability to gain footing in certain markets. The truth is we abhor the wages in China but love the prices they bring about.
I’m hearing a lot of “no one wants manufacturing jobs”, “we decided as a country to focus on tech jobs and forget manufacturing”, etc. and I question that characterization.
People were quick to leave manufacturing jobs because they were low pay and poor conditions. In sectors where that isn’t the case, car manufacturing, aerospace manufacturing and tech manufacturing for example there isn’t a shortage of workers. Those jobs are generally more prestigious than other manufacturing jobs and have decent pay and conditions.
Even in these cases though if we look at car manufacturing a lot of those jobs disappeared and once again it’ not because of the workers but because those companies realized they could make it cheaper elsewhere.
I wholeheartedly agree that this isn’t a boardgame problem and it isn’t so simple as moving it here because the current infrastructure doesn’t support for various reasons I just think it’s important to be careful about the framing here.
To fix this issue we would need years of direct investment in the industry, likely by governments or giant seed companies and it would be more expensive and inferior quality at first for sure but the country didn’t decide to abandon manufactoring, companies made that choice for us by taking away jobs and offering shotty conditions and non competitive pay
Surprised to hear that line mentioned as it gave me pause too. Especially since he mentioned just before that comment many of the same points you brought up.
Yes. Blaming the American workers is pure BS.
As someone who lives in neither Europe or USA, manufacturing in USA would stop me buying boardgames anything other than retail. My experience with international deliveries from the USA is more miss than hit, and that's even before we start talking price.
I’m looking forward to James’ shirt during Easter saying ‘Christ is risen.’
I don't understand.
@@BoardGameCo his seemingly pandering T-shirt
Really enjoyed this and haven't seen content like this on other channels that I watch. Very interesting. As much as I love board games it is at the end of the day a luxury product. Often we could get years more value out of the games we already own. As was said as long as we keep spending money then there is little incentive to reduce price and sadly it might get to the point where smaller companies are forced out. Culture change is even harder to achieve than industry change. Thanks again.
In an global economy, where your customers are located all over the world, Manufacturers/publishers have to balance where items are made for the best price, the best way way to get products to a global market for the best price. This is difficult for established companies. How much more difficult is this process for small publishers/game makers, many of whom are passionate creators but don't have a business/ logistics/marketing background? And don't have the inroads in shipping that people with years of experience in it might have.
I bought Stardew Valley and I'm perfectly fine with what I paid (full retail) and the quality and quantity of what was in the box. Personally I'm more than willing to sacrifice a small amount of component quality (for now) and pay a bit more (for now) when I balance those things against the (human) costs of doing business in China.
While I do appreciate the arguments about why US manufacturing has long wait times, and the materials that they can get are limited, those things naturally will change over time if more and more companies choose to do business on-shore. Those arguments also hold less weight as the prices for Chinese processed goods continue to climb anyway, and continue to take longer and longer to deliver.
I think you are right once they start then the products will follow, but who is the first companies to take the loss at first? once it is moved and running for a time then other companies will follow but it is a long road to wgt there
@@timfrench1333 Well, some already are. Stardew Valley was specifically mentioned in the video, and there are others. If we as consumers really want to see it happen then we need to seek them out and show them our support.
One thing that really sticks out to me is that he claims to pull a 30% profit margin. 30% is a MASSIVE profit margin. Successful businesses generally run a 7-10% margin. Some of his reasoning also doesn't add up as he claims he sets some of that money aside and lets it sit in order to cover potential increased shipping costs. If that's the case then companies like this already have the capability and capacity to spend a little more on manufacturing.
Ultimately, to reiterate, money talks. I'm just one person, but I'll go out of my way to buy games produced in the US. I used to buy Victory Point Games both for myself and to give as gifts because I loved that they did everything themselves, in house. The component quality was wildly lower than you'd find in a huge-budget KS pumping out massive minis in China, but the games were still just as fun.
So I understand that we as the United States have somewhat collectively chosen to have a more management style economy and I’m on board with the theory that specialization not just as a person but a country benefits the worldwide economy, but why China? Mexico has at least gotten fairly good at making cars. The Northern States are pretty linked to the US for their economy
It's been said already but that was very insightful.
Glad you enjoyed :)
I backed hike the board game because they clearly said in the campaign that they produce in Europe. A small new company with a nice small game invented and produced in Europe - cool
Alex I work in logistics for oil and gas and that thumbnail hurts my heart. Great video by the way as always
I'd like to note that profits as it's being used mainly for indy publishers is essentially paying workers and maybe another print run?
This isn't the same thing as paying the CEO thousands of times more than actual workers and killing jobs to make the line go up.
Great interview
When you spread the freight increase across all backers per unit, it does not warrant CMON doubling or trippling shipping... The vat and shipping subsidy excuse does not warrant that kind of increase.
And yet companies are going under due to this.
Although being European I am 100% against american production I do appreciate this very insightful conversation.
A good example of "less than ideal quality" in punch-board, box, cards, etc. is: Scooby-Doo: Escape from the Haunted Mansion. I'm not sure if it was printed in the US, but from soup to nuts, this game is of subpar quality
Great Talk
Thanks!
Okay Alex, I just found your calling in life…you can thank me later 😎
You should organize a think tank for Board games. But seriously, it would really be special if you could get experts from different view points and angles to discuss the ‘1st world issues’ of board gaming. For example, having someone that could explain logistics would have been amazing in this discussion. Maybe a publisher like Stronghold Games (if they still produce games in the US). You had the business angle and experience with freight and dealing with China.
Ambitious? Yes, but so are you! 😉. Think of it “‘Roundtable Discussions: Tabletop’ hosted my Alex Radcliffe and published by Boardgameco. Taking on the hobby’s and industry’s most difficult challenges. Breaking down the complexity and offering up solutions. Solving our board game woes, one discussion at a time.”
Ooo…I have goosebumps. 🤓😄
In effect it comes down to consumer behavior. We are addicted to lower price points and higher quality, regardless of the environmental or human (e.g., Chinese poverty-level wages) costs. Most consumers just don't think about these costs, which is a fault of our wider education and political systems. As a result, publishers are stuck having to go the China manufacturing route. Of course, this kind of attitude is also built into modern US capitalism across the board. Environmental and worker wage costs are not calculated into our systems.
That's definitely part of it. The other part is over-regulated US based companies. Small companies struggle to compete while large companies get subsidies, lobby, or can afford to deal with all the red-tape.
Well said, Dana!
A company can't just come in and do cheaper shipping as the ports are currently overloaded. You need a company to come in and stand up new ports all over the world and that is the hard part, these ports are large and require land. Having more ships makes the ports more busy. A few ships are skipping ports because the wait times to unload are too long.
I loved the quote "want families playing board games", think it is almost a need in today's society as a way for families to be families. Loved this subject and explanations that I xan share with friends and students
If we don’t have the capability we need to move towards it. Just saying over and over we can’t do I it here isn’t a reason.
I think this video did a great job laying out the challenges of doing it, not that we ‘can’t’.
If you are going to solve a problem, you first need to be very informed on what the problem is.
@@cfosburg Yes for the most part they did a good job. But I think other factors will bring manufacturing back. And this can be part of it. Unless you say we can’t do it today so we never can. Which is the sentiment I kept hearing. I get that’s it’s hard. I don’t think it’s improbable.
I'm not sure the talk about nationalism and choosing to move manufacturing really is relevant. Given good evidence that the fabric of global trade is unravelling, it's not about choosing where to manufacture and nitpicking relative costs. It's about having board games manufactured in quantity at all vs having pricier board games and a decent amount of them.
This entire discussion was under the assumption that what is past will continue to be (i.e. manufacturing + transport makes China an option and the best one). Will that continue as we go through this decade? I wouldn't be so sure. It may very well be the case that if you want board games manufactured in any reasonable volume and variety, you're going to look elsewhere even if not the US (and even if it'll be more costly and less quality).
Therefore, I'd put the question less as "US or China better?" and more as "more expensive board games or not many board games at all?". Board gamer demand will determine which side of that balance wins out, and if more expensive games win and the US is the best place, that's where it'll move. Nationalism in this potential outcome has nothing to do with it, just natural self-interest.
I think something completely absent from this discussion is the environmental impact of having games (as well as everything else) made in China vs America when a majority of the audience is Americans. Not to mention the fact we use plastic so extensively in them. It’s not just about capitalism anymore, it’s also about whether or not we have a world to live comfortably on in 30-40 years.
A very needed video to give people perspective. "Make it here" sounds good until you get to the hundreds of thousands in startup costs for factories. The lets add more ocean logistics idea is even more ludacris, the startup costs would be in the millions and its not like you can go down the street and buy one of those boats at a dealership.
I blame partially the greed of some companies and the greed of people in different industries. When the heads of companies can make up to 500x what their workers are making and still trying to make make more and more profit at the expense of the workers, there is an issue. I know there are companies out there that aren't trying to maximize the profits for the top but actually care about the workers and are trying to make sure everyone is able to live.
Hey guys thanks for the thought provoking video.
As a general rule of thumb I think we all have to be less dependent on stuff that comes from across the globe. Either that, or we have to make hydrogen engines work.... because it's not just the cost of shipping that ain't coming down - it's the temperature on this planet as well....
On ships. Shipbuilding is VERY volatile. Let’s say ships last for 33 years. If there is a global demand for shipping that supports 100 ships, on average 3 need to be built every year to maintain a global fleet of 100. That’s your entire shipbuilding industry.
If global demand is rising every year, so the number of ships needed grows 1% a year, the entire shipbuilding industry maintains a capacity for 4 ships.
If a recession or Covid hits, and global shipping declines by 3-4%, that’s means shipping firms need 3-4 fewer ships, so they just cancel orders and retire their current aged ships. That’s a 100% decline in shipbuilding!
It seems like there may be a niche for a board game publisher who can creatively source local components. I’m thinking similarly to high end restaurants and breweries using local ingredients. It might not be plastic and cardboard, maybe something else? Recycled electronic components, agricultural or forestry based components?
Shipping is a cyclical industry. We will be gong back to 6k. As a reminder, they were breaking up ships in 2020 due to low demand and right now the shipping construction industry is booming.
Great discussion! I'm hopeful that these issues will also drive some innovation in the space, instead of more "samey" type games. Maybe we can get smaller, more condensed games that do more with less.
You are talking to the wrong people. Talk to a manufacturing expert with Asian experience. Someone like.....me. 15 years in Asia working with various multinational companies in production from pharmaceuticals, electronics, aerospace, etc.
Asia is not necessarily cheaper production with modern equipment and technology which can subvert labour costs greatly. The quality control and efficiency systems in Asia are nowhere near what Europe and America achieve which can save also save costs. In summary, the US can absolutely produce board games domestically at competitive prices. All it requires is a dedicated will to do it.
Remove government oversight and regulations, end subsidies for large companies to allow true competition, and US manufacturing will thrive.
Great chat - love the shirt James!
you won't manufacture in USA, because nobody in USA would work for chinese wages. average Amazon warehouse worker (where they are hyperoptimized) makes on average 16 USD/hour (same as average factory worker). senior (!) factory worker in china makes 2.9 USD/day. enough said. and there are people crying how THEY subsidize chinese 13 % VAT
Made in America= 150%+ increase in shipping costs to the rest of the world. That is not including the increase in production cost. Products will be unviable for much of the world, so USA only will mean smaller print runs, so a further increase in price to produce and a loss of sales for the companies. If they want to make up lost international sales, they will need even larger margins.
Thanks for that frank discussion.
However, is there a way to begin a movement toward Western Hemisphere production?
It has to be bad for the environment to move product around on these ships. Can James elaborate on the environmental impact of manufacturing in China?
Hope you keep collabing with James in the future. Really enjoyed his insight on things during the Tidal Blades campaign.