If this economic pattern continues, Lionel will either just specialize in their legacy models for those who are willing to pay or go the Menards direction to save their company. Even if I could afford the ridiculous prices, I'd rather buy second hand and invest my money in other hobbies. Great video.
I'm hoping they go the cheaper, low budget direction. Thought it really does seem like they are catering almost exclusively to collectors with deep pockets. Again, the used market is pretty strong, so it doesn't affect me that much. Thanks!
I knew this was you even before seeing your name because I just saw your video about the pros and cons of O scale vs other scales. Great comment. I feel the same way even about my Kato N scale stuff. The prices of Kato, Atlas, Rapido, and Broadway Limited are crazy so I picked up about 10 well cared for beautiful smooth running Con-Cor passenger sets for between $25 and $60. They all contain E8 or PA-2 locos and 8 cars. Dirt cheap! These were made in the mid 90s' and the Locos are very nice Life-Like pcs.
You’re spot on, prices have gotten ridiculous. $100 for that Christmas 027 passenger car is laughable you could buy a postwar set of those 027 cars for way less. The only item I’m kinda anxious to see is the 2-6-2 675, mostly to compare with the original. Now if only I could cough up $500 for that set lol
I'm having a lot of fun with actual, used postwar stuff. I mean, gosh -- you can get awesome, bulletproof, built-to-last classic locos for under $250 -- yes, they lack the "bells and whistles" of the new stuff, but they run like heck and you can actually fix them without having an advanced degree in electronics. If you don't want to do your own repair/maintenance, choose a unit that's been rehabbed (lots of great repair work out there in the postwar ecosystem). It's interesting to view these new catalogs and see what Lionel is doing, but no, I'm not a buyer.
A modern engine can go maybe 20 years without being serviced majorly. But after that point, the electronics and motors that are unserviceable begin to fail. A postwar/MPC locomotive needs to be majorly serviced a couple times a year, but can last practically forever. Completely agreed.
You aren't kidding. When I go to York, I come back with the trunk and back seats stuffed to the gills with trains, and spend around five hundred bucks to stuff the car. The catch? It's all in very poor condition, but hey, half the fun is in restoration. I had set up a dozen christmas window display train layouts throughout town, prewar and postwar equipment throughout, one loco, a prewar 1688 did a seven day nonstop run. Even the prewar 47 gates worked perfectly the entire week. My number 623 is nicknamed "Rust Bucket" as that was the condition I bought it in, for $15. All four axles frozen, motor seized, and so on. It did a five day nonstop run. When you can stuff a four door car for less money than one engine, that says something.
@@modelrailpreservation wrote: "when you can stuff a four door car for less money that one engine, that says something." Well said -- couldn't agree more. It's tremendously satisfying to bring these "basket cases" back to life -- for yourself or for friends. I suppose it's the same thrill and feeling of pride that antique car/boat/house restorers feel.
@DucknCoverin I have a lot of respect for people who are adept at maintaining and tweaking the modern stuff -- lots of amazing folks here on UA-cam doing exactly that!
This channel needs more subs just talking facts about this stuff. Im tired of O guage youtube just simping for Lionel. Without those 10 people dropping a fortune on new Lionel products, I dont know how this company stays afloat. Its simply ridiculous.
As a young person in O and HO scale, I can definitely say the O scale market, in particular, has a competition issue and a proprietary control system issue. I think those two things are holding outside companies back from the market. As soon as dcc or something along the lines of soundtraxx blunami is more popular in O scale. You will see lionel particularly have to adapt. More manufacturers = More competition = Lower Prices
Young man, you thoughts on the Lionel 2024 Catalog pricing, I share the same exact thoughts. I’m 81 years old, I have one Lionel prewar train set and several postwar O-27 with die cast locomotives and postwar cars which are made as well as the O Gauge sets at that time the O27 wasn’t as scale but quality was the same for both. Yes I have TMCC and Legacy Locomotives as well, most were bought used because of prices. There’s absolutely no reason the modern Lionel train sets doesn’t have die cast Steam locomotives and couplers that work for the prices Lionel is charging for junk in my opinion. I throughly enjoyed you video and audio on the Lionel 2024 catalog!👍👍🚂🚂❄️⛄️
It's neat to see the prairie return to the traditional lineup, and overall the selection's better than last year's catalog, but the sticker shock remains palpable. Ultimately nothing wrong with the older versions and buying used, or going with an alternative like Menards at a more wallet-friendly price.
The MENARDS Trains Automobile carrier is completely different from the LIONEL O gauge auto carrier. The MENARDS Automobile carrier is closer to a true 1/64th scale version of the MTH Premier auto carrier.
I agree with you. Everything looks so nice until you look at the price. I want the red polar express set but 2000 is kinda crazy. I like the ready to play sets. I recently purchased the Pennsylvania keystone special set for 300 and absolutely love it.
I would have to agree the used market is still my favorite. I find myself checking the 2nd sales all the time. In fact I really enjoy the hunt. I just found your channel and have subbed. Frank
HO Scaler here, you hit the nail so hard on the head I think my spine feels it. This is genuinely so true, at least for people who I've talked to about prices and second hand dealing and the like. People who have been in the hobby for longer than they've been employed are happy to pay prices equivalent to a used automobile, while the rest of us complain that the manufacturers haven't made anything reasonably priced for the past however long. Underdetailed railcars and locomotives going for premium prices to the point dumpster diving becomes a reasonable past time as opposed to going to a retailer. I wouldn't sell yourself short, as your opinion is indeed worth a listen. Have a good'n'.
I really hope that MTH ramps things up again soon. The hobby has enough issues right now without Lionel acting like they are the only game in town. Lionel's price policies are driving the middle class out of O gauge railroading. Hopefully Menard's will continue with their O gauge offerings and continue to expand into the locomotive and train set offerings.
Ho Ho Ho! Are we to understand you're less than disappointed with the Christmas products? Totally agree with your observations on the "New" Lionel. It's easy for me to thumb through the catalogs and marvel at the prices for "gentelmen's" toys. Me? There's a 2343 ABBA unit on the mantle here that showed up under the Christmas tree in 1952. Thanks to the aftermarkets, that original collection of engines and rolling stock is now expanding so the grandkids can couple up with their granddad. Can't justify the prices and associated bragging rights. md
I got a perfectly functional 2343 A-A for $75 at a train show. I'll keep those engines running for as long as they will, which may be practically forever. Thanks!
I see one issue with this hobby is the space needed. To build a layout, one needs to own a house or have an extra room in an apartment. The cost of housing is horrible. I would not have gotten back into the hobby if i didn't get my grandfather's sets. But buying used is definitely the way im going. I did buy a used GG1 with TMCC and was looking at getting a control system. Used is $395. The new system thats supposed to come out in a few months is retailing for $495. It controls everything. So... i might save up for it. I'm enjoying your channel.
you can call me crazy, but the halloween and the christmas ones are probably my favorite. that North Pole Central looks really good IMHO, atleast they didnt get super lazy with the theme like other christmas sets and actually take care if you actually look at the patterns and line flow of that paint scheme. works perfectly on that set .
I don't hate the themes as much as I present in the video. I just wish Lionel also had more of a selection of "prototypical" stuff alongside the fun holiday sets. I think the Halloween stuff might be my favorite. Thank you for your opinion!
Hey, well off guy here: Even for me, these prices are ridiculous! This very basic Christmas set my dad wanted was somehow 430 (DISCOUNTED)! It’s absurd! My shop luckily (ready to roll for those down here in South Florida) sells used pre-war models for the reasonable prices (140-180). What my friend told me is that due to this new tech (Bluetooth) companies like Lionel are raising prices because of it. I think the simple solution is to have a separate conventional line so that people who aren’t interested in Bluetooth can get locomotives for an affordable price. I personally like the Lionel release of 2025 (Pennsylvania 537?? Is the one I want) but 329.99 is too much for this locomotive. Used is the way to go!
Have you seen ScottRails videos? He's a new model railroader who agrees with you that prices are too high for new product. So, he goes to train shows, buys used models for cheap, fixes them up, (if need be), and shows it can be done rather inexpensively and easily, too. He just remotored an old Mehano HO loco with a $1 Chinese motor, and it runs great. Here's a link to his UA-cam channel: www.youtube.com/@ScottRails
MTH is bringing out a 2-10-0 Railking Hippo with Protosound 3 for $529. A 2-10-0 for about the same price as a Lionchief + 2.0 diesel. What does that say about Lionel?
Great video! Halloween trains at scary prices. How is there a market for that stuff? Modern Lionel needs to go back and look at how the Lionel company survived economic troubles in the past.
My opinion menards is probably some of the cheapest O. scale stuff you can get Compare to a lionel car You can get almost any of the menards freight cars for 20-30-40 dollars
The pricey nature of more modern Lionel products is precisely why I prefer to get items used when I can. You can almost always get a better deal on them that way, and can make getting into the hobby that much cheaper.
Watch for the GINORMOUS gap between engine and tender on the 675. I WANT this set badly, but only if it looks right. Also: the caboose should use the center-coupola tooling. They have it. They should use it.
The prairie is a nice addition! A fun little callback to the original sets! I would say I am confused as to why Lionel is not including remotes with their basic LionChief steam engines and diesels? I am not interested in shelling out money for the “Universal Remote”. As well, it would be nice to see LionChief Plus return and for Lionel to lay back on the LionChief Plus 2.0. I feel that far too many locomotives have LC+2.0 or that engines, like the Doodlebug, don’t need it. LC would be a better choice for it. Less is More, in my opinion. Oh, and an undecorated Powered/Unpowered FT AA set. And a dining car for the Super Chief. Passengers need to eat!
The fact that the passenger cars are over $100 each almost makes me NOT want to buy the matching Union Pacific/Lionel Lines FT diesels as well. I won't buy the FT unit if the passenger cars cost too much. If Lionel would've made them a set like they've done with the Santa Fe and Texas Special, I would buy them in a heartbeat. Seems like Lionel is shooting themselves in the foot with its lack of logic in this instance. I have sneaking suspicion they're offering the individual passenger cars so people will buy them for their Menards F7 diesels. The problem is that your typical Menards shopper won't pay that much for passenger cars. Lionel would do better if they offered them as engine/passenger sets instead... That way they'd steal some engine sales away from Menards. Seems like a bonehead move on Lionel's part.
I wish Menards start making passenger stock. They could probably get away with selling semi scale lighted passenger cars for $40-50 a piece. The only problem I can think of is finding tooling for the cars.
I don’t do o guage anymore since it is a little to big for my preference I still love it and still have my o gauge stuff but I do ho scale now and a singe walthers mainline passenger car would set me back $40 at my train shop. It is really well detailed and I think it is lighted I don’t understand how Lionel can’t do the same in o guage great detail for mabey around $100-$150. Lionel is charging to much since they are the main manufacturers of o guage now with little to no competition.
Most of the o gauge which I buy is used one way or another. Mostly at train shows sometimes a garage sales and other related places. I guess online too. The only new trains and cars I've ever really bought came from menards. And the price you pay for those you get a decent product.
The prices are caught in a viscious cycle. There are not enough customers to spread the costs over, to charge reasonable prices. Meaning what remaining customers there are have to cover a larger share of the costs. Despite the prices being similar to what Postwar prices were when new and accounting for inflation, these prices are actually lower when you consider they do more than their PW counterparts, the prices scare away new customers. Thus continuing the cycle.
Here’s my answer to the inflation question. Back in the postwar era people had the money to spend on Lionels. Their wages went up with inflation. In the past four decades wages have fallen and inflation hasn’t even though its been lower and steady for the most part in those decades. I’ll give you all a metric. I was 14 in 1971 when MPC got going good. I could mow the lawn and do some chores around the house along with my allowance to save money. I was able to go to Ravin’s Roundhouse just outside of New Orleans to buy an Illinois Central top of the line GP-9 for the then princely sum of $39.95. I could afford that myself. Brought it home and enjoyed it. I still have the box it came in. Tell me, can a teenager amass the money for a modern equivalent like the Amtrak Genesis which to me is a contemporary top of the line Lionel locomotive but costs $550.00? It appears to me that we have a country club class of enthusiasts; and a regular ordinary lower class of enthusiasts who just can’t afford the top drawer stuff. You know, regular folks. Lionel way back in the day was affordable to regular folks. Is the hobby in great shape? Yeah, the country club section.
I think that the prices for the more traditional entry level trains are artificially inflated to bring them closer to the outrageous prices they're charging for their top of the line models. They can't stay in business selling their top products for less money but it would look weird to have $2,000 locomotives and $100 locomotives so they jack the prices up to $400 to make it look more comparable. There is no way there is $500 of value in a $500 locomotive as evidenced by the fact that you can get it second hand for $200 in 5 years. If you want something brand new you have to pay the markup. I will personally stick with Post War, MPC, and other used but still usable items. I have always enjoyed "toy trains" over "model trains" anyway. All of the bells, whistles, decoders, seperately applied details, and control systems don't do anything for me. Give me an old 275 watt ZW transformer, 4 loops of tubular track, a 2363 Illinois Central F3, a 746 Norfolk & Western steamer, a 2056 steamer, a 204 Santa Fe alco, and a string of cars for each and I'm a very happy man. If that new 675 gets good reviews I might pick one up second hand in a few years when it is more reasonably priced.
I agree Lionel is charging too much for their product recently. For Example the ES44ACs in the 2024 is 749.99 and when they did the ES44ACs in 2012 is was 549.99. The prices really scare me and especially with their steam engines. I understand its an economic thing but come on I feel like its makes it hard for anyone to get O gauge trains.
I feel Lionel would've been better pricing these (PAX cars) at 99.99. It would've been more appetizing for me to purchase. I can go buy for the HO layout and get 2-4 pieces of rolling stock instead, or 2 good PAX cars.
I agree with all you say for the most part. Everything and I do mean everything in these catalogs is overpriced.....I am way older than you I have been buying this stuff since the sixties...so yes I am an expert....as far as the Texas special ft engine , why don't you buy the set. From the early 2000 era. That way you get engine and dummy plus a whole lot more....the set is from 2000 to 2005 I think...
My tactful answer to all of this: Our government is giving our money to the wrong causes, or causes we can not afford to give money and resources to. Thus we have the inflated dollar, weak dollar. So in reality our $100.00 back in 2018 was worth more then twice our current 2024 dollar. The other problem, so much of this is out sourced or owned by foreign governments indirectly, or directly. Back in the 1980's Lionel MPC out sourced I think it was in 1986 and the sets and products had problems. Fans hatted it. One problem I had and still see from stuff from the MPC era is the very loose rivet the put in to hold the rail car's frame to the trucks. To loose and wobbly. Now they are owned by a foreign ownership. On the catalog side, to me some of the newer stuff looks like MTH and Williams/Bachmann molds. I jumped on the used market a few years back, and just now am finally getting to go through and run and make use of those things, so every week is like shopping but I don't have to shop now since have them I just need to open and have fun with them. To many people buy a train for once a year around the tree, so for them the price of $400.00 even now is nuts. My answer is this if you want something will run and work year after year under the tree, get a MarX set and be sure to store it away from the heat and moisture, and oil it lightly, and properly, the engine and the rail cars axles. Often can be found used for free to $100.00 for a average set.
Lionel is beginning to alienate their customers. Who the HELL can afford most of their stuff. I love model railroading but I just can’t spend the money Lionel is asking!🤬
You could not be more wrong. Things in this hobby are cheaper now than they have ever been. That's crazy you say? If you adjust for the rate of inflation from the post war period to now, Starter set prices have risen at a slow rate than most things.
Thank you for giving your honest opinion. However currently competition (Specifically lower end) is down. Marx trains filled that niche then, but now there is zero alternative. The statement of "It's always been expensive" doesn't matter when few can afford it.
The passenger cars, doodle bugs are mth tooling. You can get a mth doodlebug for $100..the and u don't get why lionel made a 2025 again, millions of postwar 2025s available and lionel has a nicer K5 Steamer which is the old railking tooling. And prices are way high, go to a show or marketplace get more bang for your buck
I think Lionel Corp is just trying to make as much as they can before folding. These prices are going to kill the newcomers getting into this hobby. And all us older seeded guys who “think” what they are worth because we know what we paid, will be seriously disappointed. Our kids will be giving them away if they are not into “sitting in a basement” and playing with toy trains. Family’s will have an auction house come in and basically give them a check for a quarter of what dad or grandpa paid-just to get rid of it. Till then I’ll continue to dabble in my hobby and enjoy them.
As far as I’m concerned Lionel can keep their overpriced junk!! I’ve been collecting trains since 1980 and I got more trains and engines than I could run in a lifetime. Lionel thinks put it in an orange and blue box and charge as much as they can get!
Yea some pieces they have are questionable quality, from my experience the quality is decent, but the prices are completely misaligned with the level of detail and features on the low end stuff especially.
Lionels gonna run themselves into the ground when all the retired folks who buy all this stuff are gone, especially in the economy we have right now us young folks cant afford this, even if we can "afford" it, doesnt mean theres not way beyter ways to spend our money. Kimdof sad when a new set os .ore wxpemsove than a 100 year old prewar standard gauge set, somethings off. Ill stick with my pre/postwar stuff. If im spendimg 100$ on ONE passenger car it better at the very least be made in the usa
People wonder why the younger generations are not getting into the Lionel train hobby? Save your money and invest in original post war. Might not have all the bells and whistles but your dollar buys a whole lot more and the quality is better. Just my opinion.
If this economic pattern continues, Lionel will either just specialize in their legacy models for those who are willing to pay or go the Menards direction to save their company. Even if I could afford the ridiculous prices, I'd rather buy second hand and invest my money in other hobbies. Great video.
I'm hoping they go the cheaper, low budget direction. Thought it really does seem like they are catering almost exclusively to collectors with deep pockets. Again, the used market is pretty strong, so it doesn't affect me that much. Thanks!
I knew this was you even before seeing your name because I just saw your video about the pros and cons of O scale vs other scales. Great comment. I feel the same way even about my Kato N scale stuff. The prices of Kato, Atlas, Rapido, and Broadway Limited are crazy so I picked up about 10 well cared for beautiful smooth running Con-Cor passenger sets for between $25 and $60. They all contain E8 or PA-2 locos and 8 cars. Dirt cheap! These were made in the mid 90s' and the Locos are very nice Life-Like pcs.
@@glendenig9962 there are plenty of deals out there, and we don't have to be a slave to high price toys.
You’re spot on, prices have gotten ridiculous. $100 for that Christmas 027 passenger car is laughable you could buy a postwar set of those 027 cars for way less. The only item I’m kinda anxious to see is the 2-6-2 675, mostly to compare with the original. Now if only I could cough up $500 for that set lol
Yea man I don't even have the postwar version but would rather find the original than get the new engine 😅
@@chicagolandrailroader exactly! you could probably buy the original set for 1/4th of that price or even less.
I'm having a lot of fun with actual, used postwar stuff. I mean, gosh -- you can get awesome, bulletproof, built-to-last classic locos for under $250 -- yes, they lack the "bells and whistles" of the new stuff, but they run like heck and you can actually fix them without having an advanced degree in electronics. If you don't want to do your own repair/maintenance, choose a unit that's been rehabbed (lots of great repair work out there in the postwar ecosystem). It's interesting to view these new catalogs and see what Lionel is doing, but no, I'm not a buyer.
A modern engine can go maybe 20 years without being serviced majorly. But after that point, the electronics and motors that are unserviceable begin to fail. A postwar/MPC locomotive needs to be majorly serviced a couple times a year, but can last practically forever. Completely agreed.
You aren't kidding. When I go to York, I come back with the trunk and back seats stuffed to the gills with trains, and spend around five hundred bucks to stuff the car. The catch? It's all in very poor condition, but hey, half the fun is in restoration. I had set up a dozen christmas window display train layouts throughout town, prewar and postwar equipment throughout, one loco, a prewar 1688 did a seven day nonstop run. Even the prewar 47 gates worked perfectly the entire week. My number 623 is nicknamed "Rust Bucket" as that was the condition I bought it in, for $15. All four axles frozen, motor seized, and so on. It did a five day nonstop run. When you can stuff a four door car for less money than one engine, that says something.
@@modelrailpreservation wrote: "when you can stuff a four door car for less money that one engine, that says something." Well said -- couldn't agree more. It's tremendously satisfying to bring these "basket cases" back to life -- for yourself or for friends. I suppose it's the same thrill and feeling of pride that antique car/boat/house restorers feel.
@DucknCoverin I have a lot of respect for people who are adept at maintaining and tweaking the modern stuff -- lots of amazing folks here on UA-cam doing exactly that!
Man is speaking the cold hard truth
This channel needs more subs just talking facts about this stuff. Im tired of O guage youtube just simping for Lionel. Without those 10 people dropping a fortune on new Lionel products, I dont know how this company stays afloat. Its simply ridiculous.
The prices are pretty shocking. I agree with about buying used.
The Lionel Lines stuff would've been cooler if they used the green, yellow, and gray scheme of the original postwar 2400 cars.
Yes absolutely
As a young person in O and HO scale, I can definitely say the O scale market, in particular, has a competition issue and a proprietary control system issue. I think those two things are holding outside companies back from the market. As soon as dcc or something along the lines of soundtraxx blunami is more popular in O scale. You will see lionel particularly have to adapt. More manufacturers = More competition = Lower Prices
MSRP for the prairie is high but if you go through a good dealer (trainworld) I got the set for $350
Young man, you thoughts on the Lionel 2024 Catalog pricing, I share the same exact thoughts. I’m 81 years old, I have one Lionel prewar train set and several postwar O-27 with die cast locomotives and postwar cars which are made as well as the O Gauge sets at that time the O27 wasn’t as scale but quality was the same for both. Yes I have TMCC and Legacy Locomotives as well, most were bought used because of prices. There’s absolutely no reason the modern Lionel train sets doesn’t have die cast Steam locomotives and couplers that work for the prices Lionel is charging for junk in my opinion. I throughly enjoyed you video and audio on the Lionel 2024 catalog!👍👍🚂🚂❄️⛄️
It's neat to see the prairie return to the traditional lineup, and overall the selection's better than last year's catalog, but the sticker shock remains palpable.
Ultimately nothing wrong with the older versions and buying used, or going with an alternative like Menards at a more wallet-friendly price.
The MENARDS Trains Automobile carrier is completely different from the LIONEL O gauge auto carrier.
The MENARDS Automobile carrier is closer to a true 1/64th scale version of the MTH Premier auto carrier.
I agree with you. Everything looks so nice until you look at the price. I want the red polar express set but 2000 is kinda crazy. I like the ready to play sets. I recently purchased the Pennsylvania keystone special set for 300 and absolutely love it.
Great that some people are going for that! In all honesty it does look neat.
I would have to agree the used market is still my favorite. I find myself checking the 2nd sales all the time. In fact I really enjoy the hunt. I just found your channel and have subbed. Frank
HO Scaler here, you hit the nail so hard on the head I think my spine feels it. This is genuinely so true, at least for people who I've talked to about prices and second hand dealing and the like. People who have been in the hobby for longer than they've been employed are happy to pay prices equivalent to a used automobile, while the rest of us complain that the manufacturers haven't made anything reasonably priced for the past however long. Underdetailed railcars and locomotives going for premium prices to the point dumpster diving becomes a reasonable past time as opposed to going to a retailer. I wouldn't sell yourself short, as your opinion is indeed worth a listen. Have a good'n'.
Also, the Prairie is legit just a K4 with a missing leading axle-
I was also shocked they are selling single rugged rails passenger cars for $110 each, for $100 I got a whole set of 4 at a train show lol
That is why I roll my eyes when people complain about the MSRP. If you are paying MSRP, you are a sucker. I never, ever paid MSRP and never will.
I really hope that MTH ramps things up again soon. The hobby has enough issues right now without Lionel acting like they are the only game in town. Lionel's price policies are driving the middle class out of O gauge railroading. Hopefully Menard's will continue with their O gauge offerings and continue to expand into the locomotive and train set offerings.
Ho Ho Ho! Are we to understand you're less than disappointed with the Christmas products? Totally agree with your observations on the "New" Lionel. It's easy for me to thumb through the catalogs and marvel at the prices for "gentelmen's" toys. Me? There's a 2343 ABBA unit on the mantle here that showed up under the Christmas tree in 1952. Thanks to the aftermarkets, that original collection of engines and rolling stock is now expanding so the grandkids can couple up with their granddad. Can't justify the prices and associated bragging rights. md
I got a perfectly functional 2343 A-A for $75 at a train show. I'll keep those engines running for as long as they will, which may be practically forever. Thanks!
Times I wonder if Lionel overdose it with the Holiday stuff.
Wish they would do a bundle on the semi passinger cars, like 2 cars for $100.
I remember when I was little and would look in the Lionel catalog and a set of passenger cars like those was only like 150 dollars for three cars! 😢
A Lionel Consist of a Legacy Engine and 15 rolling stock.We looking at a 3000 dollar toy Train
I totally agree with your assessment. Yes there are some items I would like to have but not spending the big bucks.
I see one issue with this hobby is the space needed. To build a layout, one needs to own a house or have an extra room in an apartment. The cost of housing is horrible.
I would not have gotten back into the hobby if i didn't get my grandfather's sets. But buying used is definitely the way im going.
I did buy a used GG1 with TMCC and was looking at getting a control system. Used is $395. The new system thats supposed to come out in a few months is retailing for $495. It controls everything. So... i might save up for it.
I'm enjoying your channel.
you can call me crazy, but the halloween and the christmas ones are probably my favorite. that North Pole Central looks really good IMHO, atleast they didnt get super lazy with the theme like other christmas sets and actually take care if you actually look at the patterns and line flow of that paint scheme. works perfectly on that set .
I don't hate the themes as much as I present in the video. I just wish Lionel also had more of a selection of "prototypical" stuff alongside the fun holiday sets. I think the Halloween stuff might be my favorite. Thank you for your opinion!
Hey, well off guy here:
Even for me, these prices are ridiculous! This very basic Christmas set my dad wanted was somehow 430 (DISCOUNTED)! It’s absurd! My shop luckily (ready to roll for those down here in South Florida) sells used pre-war models for the reasonable prices (140-180). What my friend told me is that due to this new tech (Bluetooth) companies like Lionel are raising prices because of it. I think the simple solution is to have a separate conventional line so that people who aren’t interested in Bluetooth can get locomotives for an affordable price. I personally like the Lionel release of 2025 (Pennsylvania 537?? Is the one I want) but 329.99 is too much for this locomotive. Used is the way to go!
Agreed!
Great video. I agree with almost everything you said
Have you seen ScottRails videos? He's a new model railroader who agrees with you that prices are too high for new product. So, he goes to train shows, buys used models for cheap, fixes them up, (if need be), and shows it can be done rather inexpensively and easily, too. He just remotored an old Mehano HO loco with a $1 Chinese motor, and it runs great. Here's a link to his UA-cam channel:
www.youtube.com/@ScottRails
MTH is bringing out a 2-10-0 Railking Hippo with Protosound 3 for $529. A 2-10-0 for about the same price as a Lionchief + 2.0 diesel. What does that say about Lionel?
Great video! Halloween trains at scary prices. How is there a market for that stuff? Modern Lionel needs to go back and look at how the Lionel company survived economic troubles in the past.
My opinion menards is probably some of the cheapest O. scale stuff you can get Compare to a lionel car You can get almost any of the menards freight cars for 20-30-40 dollars
Agreed. And even better you can get MPC Lionel rolling stock for $5-10 or less per car, and customize/improve them as you desire.
I think if they quit forcing with lion chief In went back to traditional transformers I think the price would be way down
The pricey nature of more modern Lionel products is precisely why I prefer to get items used when I can. You can almost always get a better deal on them that way, and can make getting into the hobby that much cheaper.
Watch for the GINORMOUS gap between engine and tender on the 675. I WANT this set badly, but only if it looks right. Also: the caboose should use the center-coupola tooling. They have it. They should use it.
I noticed that too yea
The prairie is a nice addition! A fun little callback to the original sets!
I would say I am confused as to why Lionel is not including remotes with their basic LionChief steam engines and diesels? I am not interested in shelling out money for the “Universal Remote”. As well, it would be nice to see LionChief Plus return and for Lionel to lay back on the LionChief Plus 2.0. I feel that far too many locomotives have LC+2.0 or that engines, like the Doodlebug, don’t need it. LC would be a better choice for it. Less is More, in my opinion.
Oh, and an undecorated Powered/Unpowered FT AA set. And a dining car for the Super Chief. Passengers need to eat!
The fact that the passenger cars are over $100 each almost makes me NOT want to buy the matching Union Pacific/Lionel Lines FT diesels as well. I won't buy the FT unit if the passenger cars cost too much. If Lionel would've made them a set like they've done with the Santa Fe and Texas Special, I would buy them in a heartbeat. Seems like Lionel is shooting themselves in the foot with its lack of logic in this instance. I have sneaking suspicion they're offering the individual passenger cars so people will buy them for their Menards F7 diesels. The problem is that your typical Menards shopper won't pay that much for passenger cars. Lionel would do better if they offered them as engine/passenger sets instead... That way they'd steal some engine sales away from Menards. Seems like a bonehead move on Lionel's part.
I wish Menards start making passenger stock. They could probably get away with selling semi scale lighted passenger cars for $40-50 a piece. The only problem I can think of is finding tooling for the cars.
You are spot on bud
I don’t do o guage anymore since it is a little to big for my preference I still love it and still have my o gauge stuff but I do ho scale now and a singe walthers mainline passenger car would set me back $40 at my train shop. It is really well detailed and I think it is lighted I don’t understand how Lionel can’t do the same in o guage great detail for mabey around $100-$150. Lionel is charging to much since they are the main manufacturers of o guage now with little to no competition.
Most of the o gauge which I buy is used one way or another. Mostly at train shows sometimes a garage sales and other related places. I guess online too. The only new trains and cars I've ever really bought came from menards. And the price you pay for those you get a decent product.
15:36 They did, but I'M NOT GOING FOR THAT I'm going for the Seaboard one which you Missed that one (Watch Cowl Unit Productions)
Yea honestly the seaboard one is really pretty. Cowl unit's catalog reviews are really hilarious imo
@@chicagolandrailroader agreed
The prices are caught in a viscious cycle. There are not enough customers to spread the costs over, to charge reasonable prices. Meaning what remaining customers there are have to cover a larger share of the costs. Despite the prices being similar to what Postwar prices were when new and accounting for inflation, these prices are actually lower when you consider they do more than their PW counterparts, the prices scare away new customers. Thus continuing the cycle.
Here’s my answer to the inflation question. Back in the postwar era people had the money to spend on Lionels. Their wages went up with inflation. In the past four decades wages have fallen and inflation hasn’t even though its been lower and steady for the most part in those decades. I’ll give you all a metric. I was 14 in 1971 when MPC got going good. I could mow the lawn and do some chores around the house along with my allowance to save money. I was able to go to Ravin’s Roundhouse just outside of New Orleans to buy an Illinois Central top of the line GP-9 for the then princely sum of $39.95. I could afford that myself. Brought it home and enjoyed it. I still have the box it came in. Tell me, can a teenager amass the money for a modern equivalent like the Amtrak Genesis which to me is a contemporary top of the line Lionel locomotive but costs $550.00? It appears to me that we have a country club class of enthusiasts; and a regular ordinary lower class of enthusiasts who just can’t afford the top drawer stuff. You know, regular folks. Lionel way back in the day was affordable to regular folks. Is the hobby in great shape? Yeah, the country club section.
I think that the prices for the more traditional entry level trains are artificially inflated to bring them closer to the outrageous prices they're charging for their top of the line models. They can't stay in business selling their top products for less money but it would look weird to have $2,000 locomotives and $100 locomotives so they jack the prices up to $400 to make it look more comparable.
There is no way there is $500 of value in a $500 locomotive as evidenced by the fact that you can get it second hand for $200 in 5 years.
If you want something brand new you have to pay the markup.
I will personally stick with Post War, MPC, and other used but still usable items.
I have always enjoyed "toy trains" over "model trains" anyway. All of the bells, whistles, decoders, seperately applied details, and control systems don't do anything for me.
Give me an old 275 watt ZW transformer, 4 loops of tubular track, a 2363 Illinois Central F3, a 746 Norfolk & Western steamer, a 2056 steamer, a 204 Santa Fe alco, and a string of cars for each and I'm a very happy man.
If that new 675 gets good reviews I might pick one up second hand in a few years when it is more reasonably priced.
I agree Lionel is charging too much for their product recently. For Example the ES44ACs in the 2024 is 749.99 and when they did the ES44ACs in 2012 is was 549.99. The prices really scare me and especially with their steam engines. I understand its an economic thing but come on I feel like its makes it hard for anyone to get O gauge trains.
I feel Lionel would've been better pricing these (PAX cars) at 99.99. It would've been more appetizing for me to purchase. I can go buy for the HO layout and get 2-4 pieces of rolling stock instead, or 2 good PAX cars.
I agree with all you say for the most part. Everything and I do mean everything in these catalogs is overpriced.....I am way older than you I have been buying this stuff since the sixties...so yes I am an expert....as far as the Texas special ft engine , why don't you buy the set. From the early 2000 era. That way you get engine and dummy plus a whole lot more....the set is from 2000 to 2005 I think...
My tactful answer to all of this: Our government is giving our money to the wrong causes, or causes we can not afford to give money and resources to. Thus we have the inflated dollar, weak dollar. So in reality our $100.00 back in 2018 was worth more then twice our current 2024 dollar. The other problem, so much of this is out sourced or owned by foreign governments indirectly, or directly. Back in the 1980's Lionel MPC out sourced I think it was in 1986 and the sets and products had problems. Fans hatted it. One problem I had and still see from stuff from the MPC era is the very loose rivet the put in to hold the rail car's frame to the trucks. To loose and wobbly. Now they are owned by a foreign ownership.
On the catalog side, to me some of the newer stuff looks like MTH and Williams/Bachmann molds.
I jumped on the used market a few years back, and just now am finally getting to go through and run and make use of those things, so every week is like shopping but I don't have to shop now since have them I just need to open and have fun with them.
To many people buy a train for once a year around the tree, so for them the price of $400.00 even now is nuts. My answer is this if you want something will run and work year after year under the tree, get a MarX set and be sure to store it away from the heat and moisture, and oil it lightly, and properly, the engine and the rail cars axles. Often can be found used for free to $100.00 for a average set.
Lionel is beginning to alienate their customers. Who the HELL can afford most of their stuff. I love model railroading but I just can’t spend the money Lionel is asking!🤬
You could not be more wrong. Things in this hobby are cheaper now than they have ever been. That's crazy you say? If you adjust for the rate of inflation from the post war period to now, Starter set prices have risen at a slow rate than most things.
I would also add if you are using MSRP as your pricing guide, you are a fool. Only fools pay MSRP.
Thank you for giving your honest opinion. However currently competition (Specifically lower end) is down. Marx trains filled that niche then, but now there is zero alternative. The statement of "It's always been expensive" doesn't matter when few can afford it.
The passenger cars, doodle bugs are mth tooling. You can get a mth doodlebug for $100..the and u don't get why lionel made a 2025 again, millions of postwar 2025s available and lionel has a nicer K5 Steamer which is the old railking tooling. And prices are way high, go to a show or marketplace get more bang for your buck
I think Lionel Corp is just trying to make as much as they can before folding. These prices are going to kill the newcomers getting into this hobby. And all us older seeded guys who “think” what they are worth because we know what we paid, will be seriously disappointed. Our kids will be giving them away if they are not into “sitting in a basement” and playing with toy trains. Family’s will have an auction house come in and basically give them a check for a quarter of what dad or grandpa paid-just to get rid of it. Till then I’ll continue to dabble in my hobby and enjoy them.
As far as I’m concerned Lionel can keep their overpriced junk!! I’ve been collecting trains since 1980 and I got more trains and engines than I could run in a lifetime. Lionel thinks put it in an orange and blue box and charge as much as they can get!
Yea some pieces they have are questionable quality, from my experience the quality is decent, but the prices are completely misaligned with the level of detail and features on the low end stuff especially.
Lionels gonna run themselves into the ground when all the retired folks who buy all this stuff are gone, especially in the economy we have right now us young folks cant afford this, even if we can "afford" it, doesnt mean theres not way beyter ways to spend our money. Kimdof sad when a new set os .ore wxpemsove than a 100 year old prewar standard gauge set, somethings off. Ill stick with my pre/postwar stuff. If im spendimg 100$ on ONE passenger car it better at the very least be made in the usa
@ 4:35 You can buy a REAL 675 set for200. Chionel is a JOKE!!!!!!!
People wonder why the younger generations are not getting into the Lionel train hobby? Save your money and invest in original post war. Might not have all the bells and whistles but your dollar buys a whole lot more and the quality is better. Just my opinion.
get a 2nd job.