I have a 7mm Rem Mag that I shot similar to your SAUM. During barrel break in I wanted to see what the gun would do. My data was a little skewed, because my break in procedure was shoot three and clean. But, for the first 33 shots the gun shot 1.3 inches.. The next 33 the barrel began to settle and my group was just under an inch. Those loads were not tuned for the gun. They were for a gun that I had in the past, but still good imo. I have not shot a big group (more than 5 shots) since barrel break in, but I've shot many 5 shot groups. The gun loves 195 Berger EOL's over N570. Shoots 5 shot groups under 1/4". The same gun shoots 2" groups with loads using 175 Nosler LRAB's. Load development is as important as anything.
First off, it sounds like you have a fantastic shooting rifle. You also bring up a great point.... Things change in the first 100 or so rounds in a rifle. Machining features in the barrel from the chambering and rifling process get ironed out, and I've found the rifle becomes more firmly seated in the chassis stock (action recoil lug to recoil lug pocket in the stock). It's very, very common to see not only an increase in velocity over the first 100, but also a dramatic decrease in group size.
My personal criteria is repeatable 5 round groups. It’s just the way I have always done, right wrong or indifferent. Of course this also requires in-depth load development. I use this standard on both hunting rifles as well as target/competition rifles. I’ve gotten rid of several rifles that didn’t meet my standard, but were still decent hunting rifles. Sometimes I hate my OCD
I have a Sako S20 6.5 PRC with a precision stock on it that has a sub 1MOA guarantee. I’ve been able to achieve that with 3rnd groups consistently. I’ve tried 5rnd groups but there always seems to be at least one flyer in the group. Maybe it’s me but I’ll keep tryin’ !!Thanks for the video I’m headed to the range next week so im looking forward to the 20rnd group challenge! I’ll let you know how it goes.
I know personally, if I set out to shoot my best 5-shot group and the first 3 are really really good, the nerves get goin and funning things happen 😂 Takes a little more effort to calm the nerves and dial in. Good luck on the challenge!
@@worksonjunk yeah, still using factory loads. Rifle likes the Hornady 143 ELD-X Precision Hunter best. Don’t have all the equipment to reload so just saving brass at this point.
Out of curiosity, what power do you have your scope at for a 100 yard sight in shot group. We were debating this weekend on what works best. In theory a higher power would improve accuracy but some people disagree
I run the highest power the conditions will allow. Having higher mag lets you place the crosshairs / aiming point in a very repeatable position with each shot. Guys go out and shoot itty bitty groups with low power scopes all the time, but having more power makes it much easier in my opinion. A fine reticle and high magnification are magic for this purpose.
Ever since i gave into 6.5cm i fell in love because there is no reason to reload for it. Got a few rifles and they all shoot 1/2moa or better with a 28$ box of hornady. Have some nice 308s and it was a lot of time and money getting them to shoot 1/2moa. First 6.5cm was a springfield waypoint and immediately was shooting 1/4 moa with factory ammo. And thats a company that doesn't even build bolt guns lol. Got a custom and an ai atx and they both shoot 1/4 moa also and with the same ammo. Its so nice having 3 rifles that all shoot amazing with the same cheap ammo. Got 2 ar10s in 6.5cm and they both do 1/2moa.
Handloading your ‘own’ stuff, yes, is better than factory stuff. Why? Handloading for 32 years now, but about 20+ years ago, I had to find out the why question. I pulled bullets from a box of Federal ammo to measure the bullet weight and powder; everything was perfect😅. I don't know why most factory ammo shots are not as good as Handloading stuff. I did not put together for precision stuff, but hunting only.
That's a great point. I think it just all comes down to harmonics, honestly. The factory ammo manufacturers try their best to develop a load that is, first of all, universally safe in any properly setup rifle, and second, gives "usuable accuracy" in most rifles. With the individual rifle harmonics, it's the same principle when you develop a great shooting load for your rifle. You could take that exact load to another rifle with the same chamber and it may or may not shoot as well. You start changing things like barrel length, barrel contour, muzzle devices, different stocks / chassis, and you will see more significant differences in optimum reload for each rifle.
It was interesting. Like I mentioned, I didn't much more validity in a 20 shot group vs. a bunch of 3-shot groups, still interesting information. I'm going to do a bit more on this. HAHA, I think we are all the weak link!
Shoot multiple 10 shot groups, and you will see what type of precision it produces. "Accuracy" is not the same as "precision". It's not a level of "accuracy", when you are talking about group size. That is called precision. Accuracy is how close the POA, is to the POI. That's all in scope adjustment. Nothing more, nothing less. "Accuracy" guarantees are useless. As I find most rifles will shot sub moa for 3 shots. Most, that are set up properly, will shoot 5 shots into MOA. That doesn't impress me. A rifle that shoots sub moa for 10 shots consistently is what I look for. You asked what we would call your rifles. Those are both sub moa rifles. That's what I'd call them.
I went over the whole "accuracy" vs "precision" thing in the video, unfortunately we commonly see these being misused. We see "accuracy guarantees" which are really "precision guarantees." This is how it's been for as long as I've been around and generally accepted. Like you said, as long as you have a good scope, and good mounting system, you can have accuracy to some degree. Precision is what takes work. I 100% agree with your opinion on accuracy claims. The problem with 10-shot groups as I found out, is the pencil barrels and hunting contour barrels will almost always have some degree of temperature related shift, so you are left with either monitoring the barrel temp for all 10-shots, or not worrying about it and incorporating this shift into the measurement of precision which may or may not accurately represent the rifles potential, depending on how you perceive things. I think it all depends on what you are doing... hunting rifles, a 5 shot group or several three shot groups make sense to me. For a comp rifle 10, 15 or 20 shot groups make sense. Sub MOA rifles is what I would call them as well. Good enough for my games! Great points! Thank you for taking the time to chime in.
It's thrown around so much it hardly means anything, honestly. When I see claims of "1/2 MOA" or similar, I see that as confidence from the manufacturer that things were done right. The rifle components are top notch, the craftsmanship was as good as can be, and the rifle is capable of good things. Whether or not my trigger pulling or ammo will match that is a whole other story 😂
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Just found your channel. You are on point sir. So true 👍🏻👍🏻🇺🇸
Welcome aboard! Thank you for watching!
Very interesting video. Accuracy guarantee low on the list for my consideration. For me handloading Ammo makes the most difference.
I agree completely. Buying a rifle from a reputable company or rifle builder is more important. Spot on with the reloading comment as well. 👍🏼👍🏼
Great channel subscribed. Just a back yard range shooter.
Back yard ranges are the best 💪🏻 Thanks for joining!
I have a 7mm Rem Mag that I shot similar to your SAUM. During barrel break in I wanted to see what the gun would do. My data was a little skewed, because my break in procedure was shoot three and clean. But, for the first 33 shots the gun shot 1.3 inches.. The next 33 the barrel began to settle and my group was just under an inch. Those loads were not tuned for the gun. They were for a gun that I had in the past, but still good imo.
I have not shot a big group (more than 5 shots) since barrel break in, but I've shot many 5 shot groups. The gun loves 195 Berger EOL's over N570. Shoots 5 shot groups under 1/4". The same gun shoots 2" groups with loads using 175 Nosler LRAB's. Load development is as important as anything.
First off, it sounds like you have a fantastic shooting rifle. You also bring up a great point.... Things change in the first 100 or so rounds in a rifle. Machining features in the barrel from the chambering and rifling process get ironed out, and I've found the rifle becomes more firmly seated in the chassis stock (action recoil lug to recoil lug pocket in the stock). It's very, very common to see not only an increase in velocity over the first 100, but also a dramatic decrease in group size.
My personal criteria is repeatable 5 round groups. It’s just the way I have always done, right wrong or indifferent. Of course this also requires in-depth load development. I use this standard on both hunting rifles as well as target/competition rifles. I’ve gotten rid of several rifles that didn’t meet my standard, but were still decent hunting rifles. Sometimes I hate my OCD
Sounds like you have found what works for you, that's what it's all about!
Thanks for watching and chiming in!
Thank you Shawn
My pleasure.
I have a Sako S20 6.5 PRC with a precision stock on it that has a sub 1MOA guarantee. I’ve been able to achieve that with 3rnd groups consistently. I’ve tried 5rnd groups but there always seems to be at least one flyer in the group. Maybe it’s me but I’ll keep tryin’ !!Thanks for the video I’m headed to the range next week so im looking forward to the 20rnd group challenge! I’ll let you know how it goes.
I know personally, if I set out to shoot my best 5-shot group and the first 3 are really really good, the nerves get goin and funning things happen 😂 Takes a little more effort to calm the nerves and dial in.
Good luck on the challenge!
If you are shooting factory ammo, its most likely that.
@@triggeredprecisionmachinellc 🤣🤣
@@worksonjunk yeah, still using factory loads. Rifle likes the Hornady 143 ELD-X Precision Hunter best. Don’t have all the equipment to reload so just saving brass at this point.
Out of curiosity, what power do you have your scope at for a 100 yard sight in shot group. We were debating this weekend on what works best. In theory a higher power would improve accuracy but some people disagree
I run the highest power the conditions will allow. Having higher mag lets you place the crosshairs / aiming point in a very repeatable position with each shot. Guys go out and shoot itty bitty groups with low power scopes all the time, but having more power makes it much easier in my opinion. A fine reticle and high magnification are magic for this purpose.
Ever since i gave into 6.5cm i fell in love because there is no reason to reload for it. Got a few rifles and they all shoot 1/2moa or better with a 28$ box of hornady. Have some nice 308s and it was a lot of time and money getting them to shoot 1/2moa. First 6.5cm was a springfield waypoint and immediately was shooting 1/4 moa with factory ammo. And thats a company that doesn't even build bolt guns lol. Got a custom and an ai atx and they both shoot 1/4 moa also and with the same ammo. Its so nice having 3 rifles that all shoot amazing with the same cheap ammo. Got 2 ar10s in 6.5cm and they both do 1/2moa.
Awesome! I hope to see a tight 20-shot group from one of those rifles in the spring challenge!
Handloading your ‘own’ stuff, yes, is better than factory stuff. Why? Handloading for 32 years now, but about 20+ years ago, I had to find out the why question. I pulled bullets from a box of Federal ammo to measure the bullet weight and powder; everything was perfect😅. I don't know why most factory ammo shots are not as good as Handloading stuff. I did not put together for precision stuff, but hunting only.
That's a great point. I think it just all comes down to harmonics, honestly. The factory ammo manufacturers try their best to develop a load that is, first of all, universally safe in any properly setup rifle, and second, gives "usuable accuracy" in most rifles.
With the individual rifle harmonics, it's the same principle when you develop a great shooting load for your rifle. You could take that exact load to another rifle with the same chamber and it may or may not shoot as well. You start changing things like barrel length, barrel contour, muzzle devices, different stocks / chassis, and you will see more significant differences in optimum reload for each rifle.
My comment keeps getting deleted, but I’m looking forward to this!
Same, I've had several get deleted after I post them. Must be a glitch.
@@triggeredprecisionmachinellc yeah, I wasn’t even saying anything besides groups sizes and what not. You’re getting to them, keep it up🤣
Wow man, a 20 shot group?!?! For me, I'm going to be the weakest link in accomplishing this. 🤪
It was interesting. Like I mentioned, I didn't much more validity in a 20 shot group vs. a bunch of 3-shot groups, still interesting information. I'm going to do a bit more on this.
HAHA, I think we are all the weak link!
I hope you have enough of that good 6CM ammo for the contest! 😁
@@triggeredprecisionmachinellc -- I have about 100 rounds of that left.
💪🏻
Shoot multiple 10 shot groups, and you will see what type of precision it produces. "Accuracy" is not the same as "precision". It's not a level of "accuracy", when you are talking about group size. That is called precision. Accuracy is how close the POA, is to the POI. That's all in scope adjustment. Nothing more, nothing less. "Accuracy" guarantees are useless. As I find most rifles will shot sub moa for 3 shots. Most, that are set up properly, will shoot 5 shots into MOA. That doesn't impress me. A rifle that shoots sub moa for 10 shots consistently is what I look for. You asked what we would call your rifles. Those are both sub moa rifles. That's what I'd call them.
I went over the whole "accuracy" vs "precision" thing in the video, unfortunately we commonly see these being misused. We see "accuracy guarantees" which are really "precision guarantees." This is how it's been for as long as I've been around and generally accepted. Like you said, as long as you have a good scope, and good mounting system, you can have accuracy to some degree. Precision is what takes work.
I 100% agree with your opinion on accuracy claims. The problem with 10-shot groups as I found out, is the pencil barrels and hunting contour barrels will almost always have some degree of temperature related shift, so you are left with either monitoring the barrel temp for all 10-shots, or not worrying about it and incorporating this shift into the measurement of precision which may or may not accurately represent the rifles potential, depending on how you perceive things. I think it all depends on what you are doing... hunting rifles, a 5 shot group or several three shot groups make sense to me. For a comp rifle 10, 15 or 20 shot groups make sense.
Sub MOA rifles is what I would call them as well. Good enough for my games!
Great points! Thank you for taking the time to chime in.
It seems "sub moa" is very common these days. We need a term to signify something that's better than sub moa
It's thrown around so much it hardly means anything, honestly. When I see claims of "1/2 MOA" or similar, I see that as confidence from the manufacturer that things were done right. The rifle components are top notch, the craftsmanship was as good as can be, and the rifle is capable of good things. Whether or not my trigger pulling or ammo will match that is a whole other story 😂