All they would've had to do to make Bella look perfect would be if they dyed and straightened her hair to look more like the game character, but that wasn't her fault. She NAILED the character! Don't feel bad. I thought of Cobra Kai and No Mercy during the end scene.
"When you're lost in the darkness, look for the light" is the Fireflies slogan. You see it written on a wall in the first episode, which was called "When you're lost in the darkness". So knowing what was to come, I presumed the last episode's name correctly before it came out, that it would be "Look for the light". Because it goes back to finish the story with the Fireflies.
Honestly, I’m not convinced that asking Ellie would’ve been the Right Choice either. Ellie is a recently traumatized child with survivors guilt, of course she would choose to die in this scenario. They should have informed her, and given her 4 years to think about it, while they continued taking tests. Just in my opinion, though. I mean it certainly wouldn’t make as compelling a story lol
Yeah, I've always found the whole debate a bit underwhelming. There are so many ethical red flags surrounding the Fireflies murdering without any consent - or even asking consent in her traumatised state - it's always been a no-brainer for me. The Fireflies were entirely the architects of their own downfall, not Joel, who just operated within a simple mindset of saving his daughter (regardless of the consequences).
I dont think there is any point giving Ellie the choice. Would Marlene and the fireflies taken 'No' for an answer? So if Ellie doesnt really have a say in it, why pretend to give her one?
Still convinced that Marlene is a fanatic criminal and doesn't care about that. Terrorists think that way, they don't believe in bad intentions. Marlene didn't tell Ellie anything so she doesn't suffer? BS, they were planning to kill her no matter what. Joel knows that, too old to don't realize. The doctor in the game sounded more like an a-hole. If she was his daughter, forget it, he didn't even try to do this. But this HBO doctor hardly appears or says something.
@@analmf1210 I dont think Marlene's motives matter. All we know is Ellie's death is necessary for a cure. If that is all we know, then giving Ellie a choice is irrelevant too, because Ellie has to die, whether she agrees or not. If that is your reality ...and it is ...then not giving Ellie a choice is the only humane thing. I would have done exactly what Marlene did. But I also would have done exactly what Joel did. That's the point, there is no clean answer. Whichever side you pick, you have blood on your hands.
The HBO show ended on the exact same cliffhanger as the first TLOU video game. The 2nd game is not as universally loved as the original (very polarizing) but excellent IMHO. Reportedly there is enough content from the 2nd game to split it into seasons 2 and 3 for the TV show. Thanks for reacting to one of my favorite shows. Looking forward to more content.
Giving Ellie the choice is just an attempt to absolve yourself of the guilt of murdering a child. You cant put something like that on a 14 year old. What are you gonna say? "Hey Ellie, you can save the world but would it be OK if we killed you?" What choice does that leave anyone? But more ...would Marlene have taken 'No' for an answer anyway? Of course not. Once Marlene had decided Ellie needed to die to save the world, not telling Ellie was the kindest thing to do. Marlene did the right thing. But so did Joel. What father would sacrifice his child for anything? Arguably, if the world needs to murder children to live, maybe the world doesn't deserve to live? I would have done exactly what Joel did, the only mistake he made, was lying to Ellie about it. There are flaws in the story though. Firstly, there is no such thing as a vaccine for a fungal infection. The 'science' behind this apparent cure, is fabricated. Further, no scientist would kill the only immune person the world has found, without first conducting months or possibly years of testing bloodwork and so on ...and where did this doctor get his knowledge given the apocalypse is 20 years old ...and where did the fireflies find all their scientists and equipment? There is a lot of suspension of disbelief there in order to make the dilemma work as unresolvable. Similarly, I think most people would have told Ellie the truth.
Thanks for the insightful comment. It's a really good debate and makes the finale even better in hindsight. I guess my first thought is that maybe Ellie really is a 14 year old kid, but they don't play her like that. She basically acts like an adult the whole season - so in the moment, we probably forgot she was so young. She grew up in a harsh world, has seen her friends die, and in literally the episode before this one, beat her would be rapist to death. I don't think you can have her act like that the whole season but then say "nah, we have to draw the line at involving her in the conversation." Anyway, it's a good debate and I don't think either of us blames Joel for what he ultimately did. Obviously we want a season 2 in which Ellie is alive and having her die in this episode would have destroyed us.
@@kai_masters I don't think it's something you can put on anyone of any age. "It's the world or you, what's it to be?" We all have the right to the life we were born with, to put that much pressure on someone infringes that IMO. But as I said, what if Ellie said "no, you cant kill me". Are you gonna accept that and just walk away from the cure to an apocalyptic disease? If the answer to that is no, then the only reason for giving Ellie the choice, is to relieve yourself of the burden in the hope she gives her permission. ...and in spite of her maturity, she is still 14. I think the whole point is to present the viewer with a dilemma that has no right answers, forcing us to make a choice that compromises morality whichever way we go with it. I played the game when it was released in 2013 and for a video game to have this much depth of story, was revolutionary.
The reason why Marlene did not tell Ellie anything before surgery, is because in hope of a cure, they would have killed here no matter what she would have answered or agreed to, no matter how small a chance that it would have worked anyway, when you only have one shot at this, and not being able to make any tests, because Ellie would be the only test sample in any case. At the start of both episode 1 and 2, we are told by experts that finding a cure for this is impossible, and later we are told that they have failed many times before. With all that in mind, any sane parent would have done everything to save their child, exactly like Joel did. There would also be no reason to have any trust in the science of this broken a world, full of religious nuts and ruthless fanatics constantly fighting to control the QZ's. It's the lies at the end, and so leaving her no choice at all, that makes his decisions comparable to Marlene's. Btw, Marlene defeat her own argument of Joel not being able to keep Ellie alive and from being "ripped apart" by the infected in the future anyway, because if she really believed being immune is little to no guarantee, and do not really help Ellie from being killed, then what is the point of killing her in an attempt to make other people immune but equally in great risk of being killed by the already infected anyway.
Marlene would never gave choice to Ellie, as it does not matter what she chooses. Its either her or humanity, and hundreds of fighters already died for this cause. It was some kind of mercy - she would die not knowing she is. Joel would never gave Ellie choice also as he knew what she would choose, and could not live without her. None of them gave her choice since "she is a kid, i`m adult, I know better". I`m surprised and sad how low this percentage of people who truly understood TLOU1, and even less people understood TLOU2. Its emotions and inability to let go, this is what happened to all of the characters - Joel could not let go of his daughter, Katelyn and Henry could not let go their brothers... And all the love, all the emotions, can sometimes deceive you in the most horrifying way.
Ellie became Joel's Sarah and he would do everything to "redeem" himself to save Sarah as a redo, and Ellie was that by proxy. Joel just views that as the greater good on behalf of his daughter instead of the world, in his own twisted selfish way.
Joel confesses that the scar on his face was self-inflicted, he tried to end it all. Joel is the biggest infected of the series, at the moment Sarah died... Joel died with her. Ellie is the cure for all humanity, but at the same time is the only cure that exists to heal the wound that the loss of Sarah left in Joel. Joel is the great selfish of the series, and the love of a father is wonderful but can also be terrifying, because when you love someone that way you would be able to burn the world to protect that person. Joel could have saved humanity and decided not to, the world took everything from Joel, so Joel took everything from the world.
Joel is a very morally grey character in the show. His love for Ellie is partly self-motivated and thus poses a question as to how pure of a love it is since he puts his needs above hers by denying her the freedom of choice. The show opens up a moral can of worms so to speak.
Him basically saying she is what healed his wounds is probably the best part of this episode. Apart from Joel going crazy. And you chose that point to mute it? Not the best editing job.
Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately as reactors, we are limited by copyright issues and need to mute certain parts to adhere to copyright guidelines.
The whole attempt was never in the game . In the game Joel is practically Superman. He has great hearing , great stamina, great aim. Joel knows Everything. In the show Joel is Mr. Average man. He is partially deaf in one ear. He has panic attacks. He has nightmares about "failing". He is slow. He is out of shape. He attempted self forever sleep. The difference between Game Joel and Show Joel is night and day. I have the Cure for this outbreak. We see Anna was in labor when she was infected and cut the cord on Ellie straight away. As such Ellie is immune. If Ellie was not gay and had a baby that child would be immune. So get a pregnant woman , when she goes into labor infect her just like Anna. Thirty or fourty of these cases and the next generation would be immune.
Almost raped and eaten, and survivor's guilt, today you don't give a live-death choice to anybody like this, less a child, because someone would say is too vulnerable. That is why they ask for parental consent when is a minor. Sitting all together to discuss, that's an image. They are terrorists, all terrorists have their own good intentions and that cure is not even a certainty, They would have done it no matter what I despise Marlene, she hardly knows Ellie and takes advantage that Ellie (who just met her 3 weeks ago) has no one, so she thinks. Little that she know now Ellie has Joel. And from where do people assume that Marlene and Anna were best friends? Yes, sounds very nice, moving story, but Anna didn't say that, she asked how long have we known each other?, KNOWN each other. And Anna lied to Marlene, "My daughter was born before I was bitten", so they don't kill Ellie or use her, exactly what Marlene is doing 14 years later. This a little spoiler for season two in the game (I hope they change season 2, the ending here is happier even for Bill and Frank) Anyway, one part that I like is when Joel is talking to Ellie (she is so so angry at him about what he did and hardly speaks to him) but still he says "if I had the chance, I would do it all over again". That's my parents, "You are not going, so hate me". But now, all grown up, I understand why and thank them. By the way, that was Tommy's wife not fiance.
The pregnant woman who played Ellie's mom is Ashley Johnson who was the voice actor for Ellie in the video games.
The actress bears a striking resemblance to Ellie! Great casting!
@@kai_mastersnot just the voice actor, but did the motion capture for the game as well! That’s why the resemblance is so strong
All they would've had to do to make Bella look perfect would be if they dyed and straightened her hair to look more like the game character, but that wasn't her fault. She NAILED the character! Don't feel bad. I thought of Cobra Kai and No Mercy during the end scene.
@carriesmith742 Joel would make a great Cobra Kai sensei! He could take Silver for sure!
"When you're lost in the darkness, look for the light" is the Fireflies slogan. You see it written on a wall in the first episode, which was called "When you're lost in the darkness". So knowing what was to come, I presumed the last episode's name correctly before it came out, that it would be "Look for the light". Because it goes back to finish the story with the Fireflies.
Wow! Great catch! We will need to rewatch this wonderful show at some point to catch all of the little things that we may have missed the first time.
Honestly, I’m not convinced that asking Ellie would’ve been the Right Choice either. Ellie is a recently traumatized child with survivors guilt, of course she would choose to die in this scenario. They should have informed her, and given her 4 years to think about it, while they continued taking tests.
Just in my opinion, though. I mean it certainly wouldn’t make as compelling a story lol
Yeah, I've always found the whole debate a bit underwhelming. There are so many ethical red flags surrounding the Fireflies murdering without any consent - or even asking consent in her traumatised state - it's always been a no-brainer for me. The Fireflies were entirely the architects of their own downfall, not Joel, who just operated within a simple mindset of saving his daughter (regardless of the consequences).
I dont think there is any point giving Ellie the choice. Would Marlene and the fireflies taken 'No' for an answer? So if Ellie doesnt really have a say in it, why pretend to give her one?
Still convinced that Marlene is a fanatic criminal and doesn't care about that. Terrorists think that way, they don't believe in bad intentions.
Marlene didn't tell Ellie anything so she doesn't suffer? BS, they were planning to kill her no matter what. Joel knows that, too old to don't realize.
The doctor in the game sounded more like an a-hole. If she was his daughter, forget it, he didn't even try to do this.
But this HBO doctor hardly appears or says something.
@@analmf1210 I dont think Marlene's motives matter. All we know is Ellie's death is necessary for a cure. If that is all we know, then giving Ellie a choice is irrelevant too, because Ellie has to die, whether she agrees or not. If that is your reality ...and it is ...then not giving Ellie a choice is the only humane thing. I would have done exactly what Marlene did. But I also would have done exactly what Joel did. That's the point, there is no clean answer. Whichever side you pick, you have blood on your hands.
If you think Joel would have just let ellie die you are deluding yourself. Someone said it before, "Joel was not going to lose another daughter. "
the game is my favorite game of all time so i was hoping the show could live up to it, the show was amazing and cant wait for season 2
Same! I can’t wait to see who plays Abby!
The HBO show ended on the exact same cliffhanger as the first TLOU video game.
The 2nd game is not as universally loved as the original (very polarizing) but excellent IMHO.
Reportedly there is enough content from the 2nd game to split it into seasons 2 and 3 for the TV show.
Thanks for reacting to one of my favorite shows. Looking forward to more content.
Happy to have you around! We will be announcing upcoming content later this week!
Surprised that you guys have such a fair/nuanced take so quick after the ending.
Thank you! We enjoy looking at characters from a deeper perspective and trying to see the good in everyone.
Giving Ellie the choice is just an attempt to absolve yourself of the guilt of murdering a child. You cant put something like that on a 14 year old. What are you gonna say? "Hey Ellie, you can save the world but would it be OK if we killed you?" What choice does that leave anyone? But more ...would Marlene have taken 'No' for an answer anyway? Of course not. Once Marlene had decided Ellie needed to die to save the world, not telling Ellie was the kindest thing to do. Marlene did the right thing.
But so did Joel. What father would sacrifice his child for anything? Arguably, if the world needs to murder children to live, maybe the world doesn't deserve to live? I would have done exactly what Joel did, the only mistake he made, was lying to Ellie about it.
There are flaws in the story though. Firstly, there is no such thing as a vaccine for a fungal infection. The 'science' behind this apparent cure, is fabricated. Further, no scientist would kill the only immune person the world has found, without first conducting months or possibly years of testing bloodwork and so on ...and where did this doctor get his knowledge given the apocalypse is 20 years old ...and where did the fireflies find all their scientists and equipment? There is a lot of suspension of disbelief there in order to make the dilemma work as unresolvable. Similarly, I think most people would have told Ellie the truth.
Thanks for the insightful comment. It's a really good debate and makes the finale even better in hindsight. I guess my first thought is that maybe Ellie really is a 14 year old kid, but they don't play her like that. She basically acts like an adult the whole season - so in the moment, we probably forgot she was so young. She grew up in a harsh world, has seen her friends die, and in literally the episode before this one, beat her would be rapist to death. I don't think you can have her act like that the whole season but then say "nah, we have to draw the line at involving her in the conversation." Anyway, it's a good debate and I don't think either of us blames Joel for what he ultimately did. Obviously we want a season 2 in which Ellie is alive and having her die in this episode would have destroyed us.
@@kai_masters I don't think it's something you can put on anyone of any age. "It's the world or you, what's it to be?" We all have the right to the life we were born with, to put that much pressure on someone infringes that IMO. But as I said, what if Ellie said "no, you cant kill me". Are you gonna accept that and just walk away from the cure to an apocalyptic disease? If the answer to that is no, then the only reason for giving Ellie the choice, is to relieve yourself of the burden in the hope she gives her permission. ...and in spite of her maturity, she is still 14.
I think the whole point is to present the viewer with a dilemma that has no right answers, forcing us to make a choice that compromises morality whichever way we go with it.
I played the game when it was released in 2013 and for a video game to have this much depth of story, was revolutionary.
The reason why Marlene did not tell Ellie anything before surgery, is because in hope of a cure, they would have killed here no matter what she would have answered or agreed to, no matter how small a chance that it would have worked anyway, when you only have one shot at this, and not being able to make any tests, because Ellie would be the only test sample in any case. At the start of both episode 1 and 2, we are told by experts that finding a cure for this is impossible, and later we are told that they have failed many times before.
With all that in mind, any sane parent would have done everything to save their child, exactly like Joel did. There would also be no reason to have any trust in the science of this broken a world, full of religious nuts and ruthless fanatics constantly fighting to control the QZ's. It's the lies at the end, and so leaving her no choice at all, that makes his decisions comparable to Marlene's.
Btw, Marlene defeat her own argument of Joel not being able to keep Ellie alive and from being "ripped apart" by the infected in the future anyway, because if she really believed being immune is little to no guarantee, and do not really help Ellie from being killed, then what is the point of killing her in an attempt to make other people immune but equally in great risk of being killed by the already infected anyway.
Wow! Great analysis! There are so many morally grey areas and ethical questions in this show. We can’t wait to see what Season 2 brings!
Marlene would never gave choice to Ellie, as it does not matter what she chooses. Its either her or humanity, and hundreds of fighters already died for this cause. It was some kind of mercy - she would die not knowing she is. Joel would never gave Ellie choice also as he knew what she would choose, and could not live without her. None of them gave her choice since "she is a kid, i`m adult, I know better". I`m surprised and sad how low this percentage of people who truly understood TLOU1, and even less people understood TLOU2. Its emotions and inability to let go, this is what happened to all of the characters - Joel could not let go of his daughter, Katelyn and Henry could not let go their brothers... And all the love, all the emotions, can sometimes deceive you in the most horrifying way.
We don’t know anything about the game but that show definitely took us for an emotional ride!
Ellie became Joel's Sarah and he would do everything to "redeem" himself to save Sarah as a redo, and Ellie was that by proxy. Joel just views that as the greater good on behalf of his daughter instead of the world, in his own twisted selfish way.
That certainly seems like an accurate way of looking at things!
Joel confesses that the scar on his face was self-inflicted, he tried to end it all. Joel is the biggest infected of the series, at the moment Sarah died... Joel died with her. Ellie is the cure for all humanity, but at the same time is the only cure that exists to heal the wound that the loss of Sarah left in Joel.
Joel is the great selfish of the series, and the love of a father is wonderful but can also be terrifying, because when you love someone that way you would be able to burn the world to protect that person.
Joel could have saved humanity and decided not to, the world took everything from Joel, so Joel took everything from the world.
Joel is a very morally grey character in the show. His love for Ellie is partly self-motivated and thus poses a question as to how pure of a love it is since he puts his needs above hers by denying her the freedom of choice. The show opens up a moral can of worms so to speak.
first time viewer - i take it these folks havent played the game
No we haven’t! But we’re a bit interested now…
@@kai_masters highly recommend, it's a fantastic game! part 2 also, ahead of the next season(s). keep up the vids!
Him basically saying she is what healed his wounds is probably the best part of this episode. Apart from Joel going crazy. And you chose that point to mute it? Not the best editing job.
Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately as reactors, we are limited by copyright issues and need to mute certain parts to adhere to copyright guidelines.
Fair enough. I apologise. I thought it was the overall useage of the video. Not certain parts.
The whole attempt was never in the game . In the game Joel is practically Superman. He has great hearing , great stamina, great aim. Joel knows Everything. In the show Joel is Mr. Average man. He is partially deaf in one ear. He has panic attacks. He has nightmares about "failing". He is slow. He is out of shape. He attempted self forever sleep. The difference between Game Joel and Show Joel is night and day.
I have the Cure for this outbreak. We see Anna was in labor when she was infected and cut the cord on Ellie straight away. As such Ellie is immune. If Ellie was not gay and had a baby that child would be immune. So get a pregnant woman , when she goes into labor infect her just like Anna. Thirty or fourty of these cases and the next generation would be immune.
Interesting theory and it raises moral questions about Ellie’s freedom to refuse to procreate.
@@kai_masters I'd never force a female that is not wanting procreation to do so. I'd explain it to them so that it would be voluntary.
Of course. I’m thinking that Marlene (when she was alive) and others would trick or force Ellie into doing something against her will.
Almost raped and eaten, and survivor's guilt, today you don't give a live-death choice to anybody like this, less a child, because someone would say is too vulnerable. That is why they ask for parental consent when is a minor.
Sitting all together to discuss, that's an image. They are terrorists, all terrorists have their own good intentions and that cure is not even a certainty, They would have done it no matter what
I despise Marlene, she hardly knows Ellie and takes advantage that Ellie (who just met her 3 weeks ago) has no one, so she thinks.
Little that she know now Ellie has Joel.
And from where do people assume that Marlene and Anna were best friends? Yes, sounds very nice, moving story, but Anna didn't say that, she asked how long have we known each other?, KNOWN each other. And Anna lied to Marlene, "My daughter was born before I was bitten", so they don't kill Ellie or use her, exactly what Marlene is doing 14 years later.
This a little spoiler for season two in the game (I hope they change season 2, the ending here is happier even for Bill and Frank) Anyway, one part that I like is when Joel is talking to Ellie (she is so so angry at him about what he did and hardly speaks to him) but still he says "if I had the chance, I would do it all over again".
That's my parents, "You are not going, so hate me". But now, all grown up, I understand why and thank them.
By the way, that was Tommy's wife not fiance.
Agreed on all points! I have no idea what they have in store for Season 2 but I’m sure it will be gut-wrenching!