Is IndyCar at Pocono Toxic?
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2019
- An in-depth discussion of IndyCar's past, present and potential future at Pocono Raceway. Following another major first lap crash in this year's ABC Supply 500, emotions have run very high in the motorsports community. Does IndyCar belong at Pocono? Robert Wickens, who suffered a life-altering spinal injury in the race last year labeled the relationship between the series and track as 'toxic', while each of the drivers on the podium expressed a desire to return.
This video attempts to break down what is wrong with IndyCar at Pocono... is it the drivers? Is it the track? Is it something else? There isn't an easy answer.
#Wickens #Pocono #IndyCar
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This video is a bit more scripted that I usually am... but I really didn't think it was appropriate to shoot from the hip on this subject.
The right thing to do for such a sensitive subject.
@@SR-4-40 Agreed. Sometimes, you have to get the thoughts on paper, rather than speak out on improv.
Good call.
Yeah, you can't speak off the cuff on stuff like this. Good insight as usual. I personally don't think IndyCar at Pocono makes sense, but a lot of that is based on the current configuration. Some of the fixes you propose make a lot of sense and would help to address the issues. Higher walls, 3 wide Indy 500 style restarts, and a safer car would go a long way to helping the situation.
This was a great video btw, it would be great to see more videos like this that come from an investigative/critical view point.
20:15 there were spotters in turn 2. However, they were set up in the back of a trailer at ground level, meaning they couldnt even see at all. Even the NBC broadcast mentioned how lazy it was
Ya. I listened to the IndyCar Radio Network broadcast and they said they were on a flatbed or trailer bed or something stupid like that.
Kind of disappointed that IndyCar basically went: oh you want spotters after Robert's crash? Here: *half a**es a spotter stand*
After the crash and race is over: Oh my God? We have to give them a proper stand now? That crash didn't even seriously injure anyone.... fine.
Yeah, between that and the fence "repairs" the past two years, it's clear Pocono management doesn't have much interest in improving safety. Hell, they didn't put catchfencing all the way around the track until IndyCar made them as one of the conditions for their return! A Cup car absolutely could have made it out of the park before then, and at least one almost did.
@@dylandaugherty2380 It's more complicated than that. Don't get me wrong there should be another set of spotters there but that means building a tower on the other side of the fence. On the other side is a hill. I saw it first hand when I was there last year and I was really happy that Wickens didn't go over the side because THAT would have been DEFINITELY been fatal.
@Alexander Luft ya. You are right. That is a big investment, but they could have at least rented a few scissor lifts you know?
@@dylandaugherty2380 Depends on how steep the hill is. It's literally on the edge of that wall. But you just gave me an idea. Scissor lifts in the infield of the track?
Indianapolis motor speedway has a far more tragic history than pocono but you will never hear driver’s say let’s leave indy. I really like your idea to raise the safer barrier in turn 2. There’s no grandstand’s there so no one’s view would be blocked. Make it 20ft tall. Poor pocono, such a great track
You’re right. Indy has a bloodied history. It’s been better recently though. Pocono needs to take after some of the safety precautions indy has implemented.
I agree, just build a wall the the height of the car so it nearly impossible to get into the catch fence
The Indy 500 has been raced for over 100 years. If you do something for a long enough time, something is bound to go wrong.
Pocono doesn’t have as rich a history. Saying that Pocono isn’t as dangerous as Indy is wrong, they should be roughly the same since they’re both 2.5 mile flat ovals with lap speeds over 200 mph. But in the last 10 years, Pocono has the worse injury record. It is a huge difference.
Hell, put a concrete wall about the safer barrier. It would be better than the cheesegrater the catchfence is.
Because the drivers want to be known as Indy 500 winners.
These cars are going 220+ mph, bad crashes are going to happen. I mean, if these cars were not safe Robert Wickens would be in a coffin. The fact of the matter is this accident could have happened on any oval. Texas, Indy, even formally at Phoenix etc. Dario Franchitti went into a catch fence on a street course and it ended his career. I want safety to be proactive from the cars, the tracks, the safety crews. Die hard fans know how much effort, and important the safety of this sport.
The thing is, the drivers need to start taking some responsibility. This was an absolute atrocious decision from a veteran racecar driver who is capable of making better moves on the racetrack. The drivers need to sit back and think about what they're doing out there. To do this on lap one, cold tires, full fuel load, tons of dirty air, a green track....why? It's a head scratcher really.
I don't remember where I saw it, but I think they were interviewing a driver about if anything regarding early aggression was talked about in the drivers meeting between indycar, or the drivers themselves. The answer was simple. No.
I couldn't agree more. Excellent comment.
Modern Indy cars shouldn't be racing ovals including IMS. If they are going to race ovals they will have to move away from the open wheel/cockpit cars and the design will have to skew towards IMSA/WEC prototypes. Cars with substantially more crash structure and driver protection for 200+ mph on ovals. F1 cars don't even do exhibitions on ovals because they know it's unsafe and the engineering of safety in an F1 car is a lot more than the budget was to design and build the current Indycar chassis.
Indycars are great for road/street courses but you can't have a car that is safe on both street courses and ovals with average speeds of 220+ mph. If you design the car for ovals it will be a heavy slow beast on road courses. Currently we have cars that work well on road courses but simply aren't safe for ovals at over 200mph.
Go back to the no wings designs of the 1950s and early 60s if you want to race road and ovals but Indycars aren't capable of protecting drivers adequately on ovals in their current form. There just isn't enough car there to protect them from flying into the fence like its a cheese grater and ripping their heads off. Indycar should design a car and do ovals, bring back CART to do road street courses.
This is a case of the cars modern technology outpacing the ability of tracks and cars to keep drivers safe. No open cockpit/wheel car will be "safe" at tracks like Pocono or any of the 1.5 mile ovals or superspeedways. Drop Indycar at Bristol and things would be safer but not at a track where they can run low downforce and wide open throttle most of the race.
Yeah that`s a real good one-is the early agression between drivers being adressed or even mentioned at the pre-race safety meetings? I also think it`s not. And it f.....g should!
They call it The Tricky Triangle for a reason
NASCAR Nerd 34 yea bc it’s a catchy name. That’s all
@@maffew25 Not gonna lie, I actually like that nickname. lol
MetalMastodon until they make it a lot more safer like Indy then they can go back.
Bermuda Triangle is better
Really like the wig today brother!
Actually a lot of people don't know that turn 2 has a 97 degree corner angle, so it is indeed faster than any turn at Indianapolis.
This comment is dumb.
You mean 9 degree angle.
Pocono was designed with turns that are identical to turns at 3 different tracks....turn 1 is designed like a Trenton NJ tracks turn...that track no longer exists....Turn 2 is an Indianapolis turn, and Turn 3 is Milwaukee.....everything about the turns match those tracks, including the banking....
Indianapolis has 9 degree banking
@@jessallen7756 I mean angle as in the angle between the long pond straightaway and the short straight is 97 degrees. Meaning that the turn is not completely identical to any turn at Indianapolis. I know it is banked 9 degrees, I am not stupid.
I do think Pocono needs a massive update in terms of safety. The track itself is a great idea but I do think safety could be improved
Frank the NOOB even nascar has had some nasty wrecks their as well. Steve Park was the worst one.
rob mush I think Elliott Sadler and Davey Allison’s were both much worse than Park’s.
Daniel Elbert park is the first big crash I ever seen with a hard hit and flip and crash and it was still just after the Dale Earnhardt crash in 2001.
rob mush It wasn’t pretty, for sure. Your main point is definitely valid... Dale Earnhardt, Dave Marcis, Bobby Allison.. all bad stock car accidents at that track.
Pocono now is much safer than it used to be when there were those really bad NASCAR wrecks. Even a few years ago when Kasey Khane slid into the pits, the track extended the wall, with a Safer barrier, so they're clearly willing to do something after a freak accident... but theres only so much you can do to prevent certain things
Pocono is not "Toxic". The IndyCar community is. A driver is what caused this accident. I have never understood the emotional appeal to link inanimate objects to accidents. If Pocono is removed because it is deemed 'unsafe', y'all might as well remove Indy and Texas, as they also have seen many nasty accidents in the past. People are thinking emotionally, rather than logically. And the results of letting emotions take over are never good.
SickBabySeals well said
Slow clap. 🙏
Nope. Not the same thing at all. But you just keep on being you.
There were spotters in turn 2 but on the broadcast they showed that the spotters were at ground level which would make it hard to tell if a driver was clear or not
That’s good
It’s the drivers causing the crashes, not the track. If Sato just drove with his head, it coulda been avoided. However, I think the track can make improvements with the catchfences and they need more safety workers. Felix Rosenquist was sitting there for nearly 5 minutes unattended. That’s unacceptable
ua-cam.com/video/PeK-fUEJFnI/v-deo.html
Sato didn't start left until contact was already made. The apparent need to take risks on starts and restarts in order to gain position are what caused the wreak. There's a lot of air buffeting running that tight, going that fast. If Indy wants to continue running at Pocono the SAFER needs to be raised, catch fences improved and the inside run-off expanded. The run-off going down the straight into T2 is 40 feet from the track surface and only 50 in the corner, compared to IMS which has 70 on the back straight and 120 in T3. That extra room provides the cars more room to dissipate energy before impact with the inside wall and more room to bounce after impact before coming back onto the track which could've avoided the Rosenqvist part of the crash altogether. That specifically would go far toward increasing safety at Pocono.
vcdm - no Sato turned down and he plainly stated he though he was clear. He turned before he should have on the first lap hoping it was clear. He did not "start left after contact was made" and he said that in the interview after he left the medical center.
Felix Rosenquist was waiting for a safety crew person too long. I am glad to see someone else noticed. Why weren't there more safety people available.
Spectrum Photo and Digital Services I honestly don’t know just glad Felix was okay because if he had injuries similar to that of Wickens it coulda got real bad
Danger is part of the sport. Wrecks happen. I love Pocono. I'd love to see more superspeedways. Indycar is speed. Turn 2 at pocono has always been 'the turn' . The Indianapolis style turn. Personally, I feel like these crashed are more driver error than anything.
Doubling the Safer barrier does sound like a good idea, as does extra track time and/or a better aero package. I got to see behind the scenes this weekend, and when qualifying got cancelled, they switched to race set up for the 2 hours of practice, and I was surprised how much they changed just for stability in dirty air.
I agree that Pocono is a very dangerous track, but stuff like this could happen to any of the super speedways, like Indy,Texas,etc. I feel like Ferrucci said it best, that “This could happen at any track we go to, I feel like that Pocono just gets the worst of it.” “Or something along those lines can’t remember what he said exactly” but I agree with him. Again stuff like this could happen at any track and I feel that we shouldn’t get rid of Pocono for the Indy cars.
Yeah there are always going to be risk with superspeedway open wheel racing. One problem though is Pocono is not nearly as well maintained as those tracks and its sad because I just don't think they have the money. I have always loved Pocono and think its unique and a hell of test on drivers but its in serious need of improvements.
I was just thinking about the incidents at Texas.
There was spotters in Turn 2 but they were in the inside, standing in a semi trailer. I think Paul Tracy said that it wasn’t good enough. They needed to be at a better vantage point.
Keep this same energy when this happens at Indianapolis
100%
Agreed.
The stakes aren't exactly the same at Pocono as they are at Indianapolis
I don't think we would ever think about that. But why would you have a knee jerk reaction and and make pocono raceway take the blame when Indianapolis Motor Speedway has taken more lives.
@@yurirentfro2743 I mean we have also run way more laps for way longer time at Indy, so why would you knee jerk reaction into saying one is statistically more dangerous than the other
Combination of factors.
1. The current Dallara IR12 is aerodynamically dumbed down. The old Lolas from 15-20 years ago were far more advanced. We are on a second different aero kit. So, with a new car coming in 2022, this is what we are stuck with til then. Reality is this current car was designed on the cheap because the owners did not want to pay $500K or more for a chassis.
2. The next car needs to be designed in the wind tunnel, not solely with CFD. The next car's aerodynamics needs to be properly developed. None of these aero kit bandaids that have been applied recently to what is a bad racecar.
3. Pocono needs re-surfaced. Pigot crashed because his front wing failed after hitting the same bump in the surface repeatedly. If the track owners are too cheap and won't do it, then Indy Car needs to move on.
4. Agree with many about the walls and fencing. The walls, with the exception of the front stretch need replaced. A new safe barrier with say 15 feet of additional wall erected above it. Get rid of the fence. The additional wall height can be used for advertising ($$$$). If Pocono won't do it, then Indy Car needs to move on.
5. In regards to starts, as long as Indy Car continues with this current iteration of the IR12, nothing will change. Maybe the initial start with 3 abreast and deeper spacing. However, on re-starts the same chaos will ensue that we saw on the first lap.
Money, money, money. Who will pay for all this David Land? The track improvements will not be cheap and track promoters will be on the hook for it. Track promoters like to take your money but are typically lax on spending any big money on what amounts to capital improvements. The same goes for car owners. They didn't want to spend $500K on a new chassis so they got this overly simplistic and underdeveloped IR12 from Dallara at $350K a pop. If they want the next car to race good at Indy, Pocono, Iowa, Texas, Long Beach, Road America, and Mid-Ohio, then they are going to have to open up their check books and pay for something that is not relying solely on CFD simulations but proving those simulations out in the wind tunnel. More money, lots of money.
Reality is I don't see much of that happening so I doubt we will see Pocono on the schedule going forward and the owners won't want to spend more than $350K on a new car.
question: how come these cars are difficult to pass at pocono but not at indy and texas this year?
@@eliteflite8395 How much passing did you see at Indy this year during the first 190 laps? That was more the norm. Go back to 2018 Indy 500 and where was all the action taking place? It was on the restarts and Rossi was the one who put on a show with his outside moves. Once the cars got up to speed, that was it. Power won pretty much unchallenged once Servia, Harvey, and Wilson pitted (slower guys trying to win on fuel mileage). They could stay in slipstream of the car in front but once a guy pulled out that was it. They could not maintain mometum. I heard some guys say their front ends would wash out and they would have to lift or head for the outside wall. Lack of front end stability and grip is what heard Craig Hampson describe it as. The front of the cars won't stay planted. Pocono is not much different, just bumpier. Texas is a different animal entirely. High banks, shorter straights, maybe having two grooves helps this package. Indy and Pocono are relatively flat. Maybe having more horsepower would help.
I really can't explain what was going on the last ten laps at Indy this year. Whether it was Pagenaud and Rossi taking a bravery pill. Maybe Rossi's car was set up better for the end. Pagenaud had more horsepower, that won him the race, imo. He could power past Rossi. Sato joined the fight but was never close enough to be a factor. Driver skill and horsepower is what made it close at Indy this year.
1. I think Marshall Pruett talked about this last week on that. point. So did Craig Hamstead, I think Craig said they add a bunch of weight.
4.walls need to be higher and fencing needs to redone. 5. I think since you have you a totally different leadership in Indycar. I think they will get it right.
Paul O I mean Indy you could pass but everyone was playing fuel strategy and sitting in the draft. Texas was just as good with passing. Pocono was alright but it needs improvements
@@eliteflite8395 No they couldn't pass at Indy this year. The last 10 laps at Indy was situation where one car had their setup dead on (Rossi) versus one car who had more horse power (Pagenaud). No one else was in the ball park all day. Marshall Pruett said Indy Car gave teams a bigger wicker bill to use on the rear wing for this season to give added downforce. All that did was create more drag and more turbulence for the cars following. Starts and restarts are only opportunities to gain positions because once cars are up to speed and in the flow of the race, they are stuck until next caution. They just ride around in each others slipstreams. Drivers have said they cannot pass. It seems though that the top 2 cars might be able to do something at Indy and Pocono but third on back.....no. Pagenaud said on radio to crew at Pocono, "I have to be first or second to have a chance!"
If you can get a second groove rubbered in, maybe you see improved racing on some ovals but that would likely happen on short oval like Iowa, not Indy or Pocono.
Texas is a totally different track. You are comparing apples and oranges. Not the same. Indy and Pocono are similar and a better comparison.
Lol, Foyt would just say "tell the kids to grow a pair"
That kind of thinking only applies to previous generations who did silly stuff like, oh, winning a world war and putting men on the moon. Now it's all about making sure to sip the sponsors fizzy drink during the interview before rushing off to the private jet with onboard masseuse and Michelin star chef.
Another way to look at it is that Indycar has to compete for drivers with other series - being deliberately unsafe would have more of a downside these days.
There's a handy touchstone - if Foyt's for it, you know it's wrong.
@@sonicimperium Our generation is going down as a bunch of weebs and you're proud of it. In what world would someone compare the moon landing to WW2 like that. Moron.
Sure, let's go back to Foyt's heyday when drivers died left and right every other race whether it was an oval or a road course.
I’m not an expert on IndyCar, but I think it’s just dumb luck. They could definitely take efforts to keep the cars out of the fence. Also, Wilson’s crash was caused by something that arguably doesn’t depend upon the track at all. It could’ve happened at any other track. In my opinion, it should be up to the driver to determine whether or not they collectively feel safe racing at Pocono.
LocoLuke hinch got hit in the head with debris at the Indy Grand Prix a couple years go.
With indycar not showing any signs that want to keep pocono on the calendar and the nascar community wanting to fast foward to the double header and get rid of it as soon as possible, the track might actually get bulldozed in a near future
Hopefully Pocono is afraid to lose Indycar because of this, and Hopefully Indycar takes advantage of it. If Pocono is scared, they can SURELY convince the track owners to double the height of the safer barriers in the turns.
@@TheNFSJacob and not use chicken wire for repairs.
Pocono want IndyCar to stay
@@nodnarb0185 ...but do they want them enough to invest so much into a pricey project such as raising the safer-barrier walls in all the turns? We shall see.
@@TheNFSJacob my feelings exactly. i think it would cost pocono millions to make the changes needed. aside from the wall height, i think they need to pull the inside wall leading to turn 2 much farther away from the track. im not sure indycar makes pocono enough money for it to be worthwhile.
David should be the CEO of IndyCar.
this is something i could get behind
The next Robin Miller
Really? A UA-cam personality over the current ceo who basically brought indy back from the dead.
Indy Car goes on a West Coast swing at the end of the season. If Pocono needs to be replaced, here is an idea. Move Gateway back to Pocono's slot, Portland, Auto Club Speedway(Fontana) returns and replaces Pocono, Laguna Seca remains as the season finale.
Move Gateway up 2 weeks and add Phoenix too
Fontana and Laguna Seca both have history of exciting moments in American Open Wheel Racing. I guess it's more of a do you prefer lots of passing, or more of a strategy based battle, both of which are exciting. If it is Fontana though, it should be at night. There is something that is just so exciting about an oval at night.
Also I'm from Monterey, so big Laguna Seca bias
Finale should be 500 miles on an oval, period. Fontana never had a consistent date or time, and that doomed it.
With the West Coast swing, that leaves 3 possible choices for an 500 mile finale. Fontana, ISM Raceway , and an unlikely 3rd option at Las Vegas, unlikely because of the bad history.
Your comments were very well thought out and passionate. I was at the race and agree with all you said. I just couldn't believe the "mad dash" for position on Lap 1 though. It's 500 miles guys!!!!
Auto Club speedway needs to comeback I miss attending to that race
If they can not book the race in the middle of summer on a Saturday, more people would show up. I miss that track too.
An October date would make sense but Mark Miles thinks that competing with football would decrease attendance. Thing is though, only a handful actually follow both.
@@CoSmicGoesRacing Make it a night race on Labor Day weekend, the old NASCAR date.
Jacob Hunt Portland runs on that weekend. IndyCar would have to convince the Portland management to move the date say the Weekend before Laguna Seca.
That being said, that wouldn’t be a bad date. 3 consecutive ovals.
Auto club should come back but as a night race in Labor Day weekend on a Saturday
In the leadup to Pocono, just like Indy, they need a LOT more time for practice. drivers are coming off road courses and are suddenly at high speeds again with little practice. If Indy is at Pocono next year they need at least one more week of practice.
My personal hot take is that it's not just the track, but a good 75% is the drivers being too ballsy. Sato was going 3 WIDE on LAP ONE in a 200 LAP EVENT. And I'm going to get absolutely flamed for this, but Wickens' wreck last year was Wickens himself making a rookie mistake going into Turn 2 by going underneath RHR. Yes, the track has had a reputation of scary incidents, but so has Indy, as well as a lot of other tracks. Like David said in the Pocono review last year, "If we stopped racing at tracks that have had a bad incident, there wouldn't be any tracks left."
NASCAR Nerd 34 well said
Look I think you, David Land, nailed it last year. Pocono is such a fast track, (especially with open wheeled cars) that MAJOR safety improvements need to happen. Taller wall, improved fence poles things of that nature... The cars are about as safe as a 240+ MPH canoe can be, now it's up to the tracks to facilitate these cars coming to these events...
Until that happens, Richmond is a FANTASTIC stand in, and will be a spectacular and hopefully safe race.
Dylan Hale this.
Pretty soon people will want the indy 500 off the schedule. I know it sounds crazy but give it 20 years, all it takes is a couple bad years.
There's already idiots crying for the ovals to go away.
I think not making the race be the 1st race after summer break would help the drivers mentality a lot.
Pocono is not just gonna build higher walls to keep Indycar. They have to request that Pocono build higher walls, and Pocono's not gonna fulfill that request if they don't have a contract and a permanent spot on the schedule. Indycar needs to improve its relationship with tracks outside of IMS.
K Ben24 don’t forget that Indycar is owned by IMS and have an easier process and budget to improve the track.
It’s only toxic when drivers try to yeet themselves into other drivers and almost get killed
fax
Unfortunately, as we become a more risk adverse society, car racing will eventually go away as we know it. I think people will eventually not accept the danger and drivers will race on simulators.
Then people will be crying about the dangers of blisters on their asses from too much sitting.
Considering there have only been five deaths in the history of Pocono (With only one being Indy related.) compared to 36 Indy deaths at Indianapolis and 4 at the Milwaukee Mile I'd say it's a pretty safe crash wise of course anything can happen but it's the risk drivers take.
Of course, Justin's was a freak accident (The Nose piece could have bounced a little to the left or right.).
Good video, David. I want Pocono to stay. I think IndyCar should have one other 500 mile, super speedway race on the calendar and Pocono, economically, makes the most sense out of all the candidates. But changes do need to be made, particularly to walls and catch fence, but also as you noted, to the event weekend itself. The amount of preparation time between IndyCar's two 500 mile races could not be more different. Pocono should also not be the first race after a long break with such little practice time.
As far as the racing quality goes, who knows what it'll look like in the coming years. I'm not an engineer, but I feel like we could once again be in uncharted waters in regards to how the cars will perform in traffic on super speedways once the aeroscreen/halo solution is tacked on. And then just a couple years after that, we'll have new engines and presumably new aerokits again. It feels like oval racing is going to be evolving a lot in IndyCar in that time period.
The idea of abandoning the track when the owners and promoters clearly want to stay on the schedule is just absurd to me. Rather than run from the challenges Pocono presents, I'd much rather see IndyCar embrace it. As Pocono is one of the only other independently owned and operated super speedways in America, there's opportunity there for IndyCar to have a strong relationship with them and work with the track to experiment with new safety ideas for ovals, like they did when the SAFER barriers were made. The two sides could come together to accomplish a lot, even if Pocono only stays on in a limited capacity like that 'once every few years' rumor that was floating around last week. I hope something like this happens.
One last note: There were definitely spotters near turn 2 yesterday. They were shown on the broadcast on the back of a big flat bed truck of some kind with metal barricades around them.
KillScottKill Hulman and Company should buy shares in the Pocono management and invest in better safety.
I think Pocono does have a huge issue in terms of safety. partially it's the barriers, but really it's not what you'd expect to be considered a safety issue. Initially I thought it was simply the track layout, but after actually comparing the track to Indy, which doesn't have nearly the amounts of aggressive, and or reckless, driving that Pocono does, I believe I figured out what the problem is. Indianapolis has clear and distinct track limits, either by a barrier or grass. There is no extra runoff with a thin painted line separating the actual track from the off track. Now this at first might not seem like a problem, but I believe it follows the same reasoning as to why big, wide, and forgiving looking streets are more dangerous for drivers than tight, hazardous looking streets with tons of things to crash into like lights, trees, etc. Even though there is a line separating the off track sections on the straights, at 220+ mph, your brain isn't going to really process those separating lines. Ideally, at least in Indy car, those off track areas aren't great for going fast around the track so it's best to stay within the track limits, but subconsciously your brain is reading how much space their is around you, and is "telling" you that you have more room than what you really do. essentially the track feels a lot wider than it really is on the straights. This causes drivers to drive more aggressively and act more reckless. I think that Pocono should make every section of track have a clear track limit with either grass or barrier like Indy and add higher barriers to prevent cars easily going up and over them, and we won't see crashes like this nearly as much as we have anymore.
From an attendee, the festivities beforehand and such were an amazing experience, but the race itself felt almost cursed from the very start. Still, even if Pocono is done, I'm glad I met the drivers I did, and also ran into you before the race. An experience I'll forever be thankful for, but a race that will live on in infamy...
It's auto racing. Open wheeled, open cockpit cars going over 200 mph in close traffic. Guess what? It's dangerous. I've been an Indy car fan for nearly 50 years and I've seen tremendous gains in safety standards over that time period. They'll always need to keep improving on safety. However, at some point whether you're a driver, spectator, race official, etc. you have to either accept the risks of the sport or go find yourself a tennis racket or bowling ball and have fun that way. BTW Dave you do a great job. Keep up the good work.
I’m from the North East and it kinda sucks that we get no indycar races here aside from pocono(and maybe new hampshire again), it sucks because Justin Wilson was always one of my favorite drivers and losing him there just always makes me feel different about indycar races there
A key factor that I noticed in both Wickens' crash and the one this year is that both incidents occurred after the initial starts were waived off, for one reason or another. That might have ended up playing a role in causing the drivers to be more prone to take risks during the subsequent restarts, which in a way could have resulted in the accidents taking place. Although I may be reaching for something that isn't exactly relevant currently.
So far the ONLY reason I have seen for Indycar to leave Pocono is the track management has been unwilling to do a good job on the catch fences. Which is kind of pointless, because if you go into catch fence on any track you're screwed anyways. There is nothing uniquely dangerous about the track, which is something Scott Dixon, Will Power, and Simon Pagenaud agree upon. So far there has not been a single veteran driver to speak out against Pocono, it's only guys have hardly raced there. All the drivers who know the track well want to go back.
weemissile yes I agree but if there are safety measures that are out there to make it safer for the drivers why not take them? I think if pocono really wants to keep INDYCAR they will upgrade there safety at least at t2. It may cost a lot but if you don’t there’s a good chance you’re going to miss out on the money INDYCAR makes you.
@@agamernamedwill2585 I think it would be worth it to stick with Pocono for a few more years. Indycar is growing and so is Pocono attendance. If we stay a few years Indycar will have more negotiating power with Pocono and be able to force them to spend more money.
weemissile I agree but the only problem I see is the pr battle. If this happens one more time people are going to start blaming indycar. That will give it a bad look and then the OEM don't want to come and bad press starts. I just hope they can figure it out because I went to the race yesterday and had a blast it would be ashame to see it go like that.
There have also been some bonkers accidents at Pocono in NASCAR. Jeff Gordon said that was the hardest hit he’d ever taken. Same wreck with Jimmie Johnson. Happened again to Bubba Wallace. These guys walked away, but they were shook - and the only reason they walked away was that it was a stock car. I, personally, think the track is too large, too fast, and turn 2 some kind of angle that cars don’t like. It’s unsafe.
All these comments with large amounts of thumbs up that directly contradict the facts that were said in the video, and just so happen to be posted only minutes after the upload lol 🙄
Anyways, great video David! Agreed with everything you said about the positives for Pocono, and why it needs to stay. It's a fun race to watch, and a fast growing crowd. It should be disbanded however, if the track officials can't raise the wall, or at least fix the apparent spotter issue. I seriously doubt they will though, if they still can't be bothered to be prepared to repair the fence.
Hmmm, I never saw cars climbing the walls in the CART era. That generation used their heads and respected the danger of the sport.
Way more driver deaths though in that era. IndyCar racing has and will always be dangerous, maybe guys had a little more respect back then because the cars were more dangerous but that doesn't change the fact there has been only two driver deaths in the past decade and four in the last 20 years, try to find any other 20 year stretch like that in Indycar racing.
You never saw a car in the fence in the era when Jeff Krosnoff went into the fence. They all used their heads, including driving with a broken hand.
Very true, those guys had a true fear of death, and it was obvious. It’s almost as if they’re overconfident with the level of safety, even though it’s really dangerous.
Michael Flaherty Greg Moore almost went into the fence on the infield but hit the wall head on at auto club California speedway however CART did have nasty wrecks on ovals. Emerson had a bad crash at Michigan and the injuries made him retire from racing. Chip Ganassi raced and had a nasty wreck at Michigan in the 80s.
no it isnt david this whole think is a knee jerk reaction to a racing incident on the straight. Indycar should ask pocono to improve safety and help with funding and then return next year with better promotion
It used to be that IndyCar drivers were comfortable going "Really" fast on High-Speed Ovals because there were so many of them on the schedule. Now there are so many street/road courses that they just don't have the "Feel" for it like the old days. I don't think many of these kids understand what happens when high speed and open wheels make contact. If you are experienced going really fast in this type of car... you give one another a little room. (Respect) IndyCar's roots are 500 Mile Ovals. The cars and drivers should be able to go like hell on these High-Speed tracks comfortably like they did in years gone by. The cars are safer than ever.... but there is too much downforce and these guys can't draft, sweep and pass like they did back then. Lets get back to Michigan. lets get back to Fontana, Lets get back to Milwaukee. Get these drivers used to going fast again on the ovals and give the fans what they want. High-Speed, Tactical Oval racing with open wheel IndyCars!! That is where the Legends are made. There were serious Show-makers in the Field yesterday. Look at that drive of Santonio Ferrucci. Wow....
As for Pocono... It needs a redesign of the wall and the catch fence. Higher Walls.... More Modern Catch fencing.
Jim Baumann just please no 25/8 rule for the Indy 500 tony George style if they back to mostly ovals.
People may say it’s the driver’s fault, but if that’s the case, they shouldn’t race there. It doesn’t matter. If the drivers can’t handle it, they shouldn’t race there. More people are gonna get injured and even killed if they don’t take action.
If that was the case why then should any race be held anywhere given the drivers may not be able to handle slow speed turns on street courses or the festival curves at Portland for example?
MHJanson When I say handle a course, it means are they able to make simple racing moves without wrecking. Drivers are scared to even race side by side in Turn 2 because there has been so many accidents in there. I do see your point though.
There is nothing wrong with Pocono that $40-$50 million couldn't fix. But IndyCar is not the only sanctioning body to race there, are they worth that much to keep them there?
It is, Indycar draws just as much money as NASCAR does.
@@makedragon OK, well, how about using the road course there then? There is a nice "IMSA" style road course, several configurations it looks like. You think that would still be a spectator draw?
@@imtoooldforthisstuff Maybe, they will have to try it out. Charlotte Roval was a massive success.
Thank you for your passion and informative coverage of Indy car. Really enjoy your videos and your dedication to Motorsport.
Lots of good points David. Keep up the good work
Indycar, like in Las Vegas, never wants to admit it's at fault. Why tf would you drive 34 cars at an intermediate length, progressively banked oval. Why tf would you also do a race where drivers only have 2 hours practice on a superspeedway.
Driver error is always going to be a problem in any race series.
Indy cars drivers need to know that racing is dangerous sport and death is a option in racing NASCAR drivers know that but when you make a sport too damn safe drivers will cry before they either get in a race car so you need to tell the drivers forward I ever get my car are you willing to die today
The intimidator 3 boy what a stupid comment. Pretty sure Indy car drivers know exactly how dangerous it is good lord.
I am with Robert on this one, that crash could've ended a lot worse then what it did. Pocono is more of a Nascar track in my opinion. But what track replaces Pocono? Who knows, if I had a guess, Indycar can go back to Auto Club Speedway, or add another Iowa style track to the schedule.
Another point is I don’t think that an independent track like Pocono could afford to bring in wholesale changes like adding another layer of SAFER barrier. They only bought it up to what we consider an acceptable standard in 2011. Before 2011 there was no catch fence around the majority of the track and the inside wall was Armco with dirt packed in behind it.
just found this video. 2018 was the first year I became a fan of Indycar, and Wickens crash was terrifying. Wickens was a favorite of mine after his amazing race at St Pete. That crash made me realize how scary racing could be
I think you're right on the ball. It's not just one thing. It's the start, the bad clean-air vs draft balance, the walls, the spotters, the lack of practice. With that many opportunities improve it seems reducing the risk by an order of magnitude is not impossible, but the risk will never be eliminated. But in the end, the drivers are the responsible parties Look at the amount of lock necessary just to keep the car steady in all that dirty air. Sato made a low-percentage move and and a tiny wiggle resulted in a major wreck. The last car to the party is the responsible party. The overtaking driver has the responsibility for a clean pass. These are the basic tenets of non-contact racing, Sato was in violation and deserves the blame.
I think maybe Pocono needs some track changes to make it safer. Maybe it needs widened or or more banking, I don't know, but I don't want to see it removed from a calendar because for a lot of Pennsylvania residents, Pocono is the only chance to see racing at a track, including myself
Omg.... its so simple to keep the cars out of the catch fence!!! Double the height of the safer barriers in the corners!!!
And remove the grandstands. Nobody in attendance would then be able to see anything anyway.
There are no grandstands on the corners
People are also not discussing another factor here. Yes, Pocono seems to have a more dangerous history, but yet, for what? It's boring every year. Something about this track makes for very fun Nascar racing, but it just has no excitement for IndyCar. It's a train race with hardly any overtakes. I'm not a philistine who needs overtake after overtake (well, I do like USAC. Maybe I'm a philistine), but it's an extreme here. It's not a good race. It's a higher safety risk. Why is it still on the schedule?
David, great discussion !!! Hey, how come the cars don't sound fantastic like they used to ?
Fantastic video David, well thought out.
They should replace it with Watkins Glen
Young man, you totally make sense. Great job and keep up your work.
If Pocono is too dangerous just cancel the whole Indy series...
Good comments. On spotters, the NBC coverage focused in on a flatbed trailer in turn two and identified them as "spotters" but also commented that they couldn't see much given their location. I hope they keep Pocono. Raising the walls would certainly help but "catch fence" accidents ended the career of Dario Franchitti and took the life of Dan Weldon, and of course, neither was at Pocono. Wickens and others have every right to have the emotion behind their opinions, but I've never once seen a group escort a driver to his car before "gentlemen start your engines" holding a gun to the head of a driver, but there are always, always drivers "looking for a ride." Three wide starts, an excellent idea, aero kits certainly wouldn't have changed what Sato did as he had plenty of downforce to make a bold turn left into Rossi, and yes, RHR had enough down force to turn a bit to the right, too. IndyCar without 500 mile races will be hard on the sport. Hope they keep Pocono (big east crowds and sponsorship dollars from the area both excellent points) but, and you didn't mention this, NBC had to have been grinding their teeth at the long delay to get the fence fixed, they have scheduling to keep. I suspect their voice will count more than drivers or owners. Good stuff David, you've turned into a real pro in offering your opinions backed by real facts and history.
A move that you would see on 10 to go with in the first 10 laps of a 200 lap race! What more can I say!
The good thing about this, is 5 of the most successful and important drivers (Dixon, Power, Pagenaud, Bourdais and Franchitti) all agree that, it's not the track fault and that kind of situation can happen in other tracks, and they hope that IndyCar can keep Pocono in the schedule.
Great discussion about the Pocono track. Personally, I hope IndyCar keeps Pocono on their schedule. Street racing has it's place but as you said, there's nothing like seeing Indy cars race on a super speedway.
The frustrating thing to watch regarding the outcry from the 'motorsport community' was that from so many people who do not watch Indycar regularly or know its history. The majority of the F1 community jumped at the accident the second they saw it to declare how awful Pocono is when we all know the majority of them tune into the Indy 500 sometimes (now that Alonso and McLaren is involed) and turn their noses up at it for the rest of the season. Most wouldn't know what the hell a Pocono is if it weren't for the recovery story of Robert Wickens. The majority of comments made about Pocono being lethal would be less I feel if most of these people saw accidents like Conway's at Indy, or heard the stories circulating the size of the accident that claimed Tony Renna.
Personally I think Pocono should use this opportunity to start testing new forms of safety barrier IF they can afford to do so, whether that's raising the barrier height in turn 2 or changing the catchfence design (in my opinion something all tracks need) to a Lexan/Polycarb/Whatever style of deflection fence. I doubt they do have the finances to do it but it'd be a good way of sticking it to the people saying the place is too dangerous and showing that they're dedicated to not only keeping Indycar but to improving safety for the entire racing world. They could really turn a bad situation into something that changes the sport forever here.
I said this on your last video but I guess I'll put here again too.
You simply can't blame Pocono except for their frankly shit excuse of a repair job.. The safety fencing design is outdated and needs changing everywhere, ovals aren't the problem, I think people are forgetting that Franchitti's career was ended by a street circuit with the same sort of crash. It can happen anywhere and not just with single seaters, stack the barriers higher or redesign the safety fence, realistically stacking the safer barrier higher is only gonna do half the job though. The trouble with this is it'll only be done when the cost of life outweighs the cost of a re-design. Indycar will use this as an opportunity to get rid of Pocono and claim it was done on safety grounds to pat themselves on the back.
That doesn't change the problem though, and that is that the current safety fence design is running on borrowed time and we're gonna see a crash way worse than this again, it's just a matter of time.
Great job on video David....after watching 15 second Sato onboard video many many times...........well.....it's a cluster as they say....
Also Remember with the crashes the pit road crash in 2017 and Helios Crash in Quali 2017
Kyle Conley Motorsport That Pit Crash was 2016
Give Pocono another chance for 2020, with the new aero screen it'll give the drivers more protection and hopefully the new design will change the way the cars pass in the start of the race, and like @davidland said let the cars have more practice time, let them have a 3 wide start like at Indy, and make the SAFER barrier higher in the corners, but that's just my opinion. But we'll see if Pocono returns next year. Hopefully IndyCar will take some new steps in the ovals next year.
Pocono's Turn 2 is extremely treacherous. There is a reason why it is called the tunnel turn because there is a massive bump in the middle of the corner. It is narrow and the exit is also extremely tight. Indycar drivers are fearless and take the most insane chances. Just go watch the MavTV 500 it get an idea. Now I know Sato is old so this comment won't apply to yesterday's accident. Most of the young drivers learn to drive in a simulator. If they crash on iRacing they don't feel it. So they are fearless when they get into the cockpit. However, there is no way to simulate hitting a wall at 200+ mph. The three wide spread out start would help the current situation at Pocono. I agree with David is to race the wall in turn 2 at Pocono. There is no stands their so you won't be obstructing the view of the fans. Also, the fence needs to be completely replaced fully. The poles are necessary for support. My personal opinion though, Pocono is pretty fast track and the current Indycar's are not stable enough to race at this type of track. I would prefer to move on from Pocono and return to a track like Chicago. Chicago has had some of the best finishes in Indycar history. You could go to Michigan to have a 500 mile race but Roger probably won't let that happen. Maybe remove a Detroit race and go to Michigan later in the year. Chicago could replace Pocono and we would have two great ovals. Go back to Watkins Glen to give the North East market a race. I am not the biggest fan of Indycar going to Richmond as short oval racing in Indycar is not the most exciting to me. If you read all of this, thank you for reading my thoughts. Thank God everyone left Pocono alive and safe.
The crowd was actually pretty good and the tv ratings were up. Good signs for an oval race. The race seems to be gaining traction with the fans which is huge especially in the northeast market. I believe they should go back and make the necessary changes to the track.
Keep up the great content David. Really happy that you are able to participate in awesome activities as well.
another idea, don't have a 500 mile superspeedway race right after the summer break, give the drivers a race or two to get back in rhythm
There was absolutely spotters in turn 2. That's 100% confirmed and I know that because I could hear both of the spotters on my radio in my helmet from pitlane all day long on the car I work on. IndyCar has a staff member up top and at 2 to make sure all cars spotters are present.
There were spotters at turn 2 but the tv were saying that had small little stand on infield and could not see everything very well
I think they can't platform for spotters big enough at turn 2 they could at least use scissor lift or some scaffolding like camera crew use
The aero kit causes drivers to be way to aggressive because they can’t pass and they know the have to be at the front to even have the chance of winning the race. Everyone needs to stop blaming the track and start blaming indycar for making a package where clean air is God
Exactly thank you this aerokit on the ovals since 2018 has been terrible
How close was Scott Dixon to dying at Indy a couple years ago? How many fatalities have occurred at Indy? Should Indy be seemed unsafe? What if Pocono had the same prestige as Indy? Would we be talking about Pocono in the same manner that we are now? Addressing some points in this video: I agree with David that People blaming a nose cone flying off the car and killing someone on the track is ridiculous. That was a complete chance event that could have happened at any other high speed track before they tethered the nose of the car. I also agree that the turn 2 wall is probably too low given that cars have consistently been going over the wall in some capacity. In a somewhat dark perspective, all these crashes mean that cars can actually pass each other or are attempting to pass. Sometimes that's hard to do in this series.
I think it’s a combination of both for sure
100% respect Wickens’ opinion. Mine doesn’t matter as much, but I think this could’ve happened anywhere. I don’t see how these accidents are caused by the track... Drivers all have steering wheels and pedals. Sometimes they make bad decisions. This was not ALL Satos fault.
There was no passing problem in 2015 and it was a crashfest anyway. It's not the car, it's the drivers. Actually if the car is difficult to drive, once the pack spreads out it becomes the safest way of racing, because you don't have any pack racing. If a crash occurs, the cars following have time to figure out where to go. The first thing I thought once it was clear that everyone was ok was "They are supposed to be professionals", instead the manage to crash again on the first lap 12 months after another disaster.
I agree about the start, knowing the danger I think there was no need to wave off the first attempt.
For this wreck it’s on the drivers and the series. The series shouldn’t pack them up that tight at the start because it creates huge runs for cars further back. Drivers are going to try and make the most of these runs. Also the UAK has made passing harder so drivers are going to try and make up as many spots as possible on starts and restarts. But also the drivers need to be a lot better then that. RHR, Sato and Rossi are all Indy 500 champions and one’s a series champion. Use your fucking heads and be way smarter than that. (This is coming from a RHR fan). The only thing I’ll fault the track on is the fence repairs. Chicken wire and zip ties aren’t acceptable at all when repairing the fence and this is the second time in a year this has been implemented. I’m just so relieved everyone was ok.
Really dont like how points determined starting lineup. Rossi was 4th fastest and Sato was 19th in a way too short practice. Different speed cars should never start side by side
Thanks again for this one chap. The idea of the three day meet is solid. Double safer barrier height. Nice one. The fencing. I call it The Shredder. I look at Ice Hockey and wonder. The realms of sci-fi. Star treks transparent aluminium. But is there not something smooth, transparent and solid out there to use above the safer barriers in corner and just beyond them? Probably. Its the cost isn't it.....?
Give them a high downforce package to slingshot for the lead instead of everyone having to race like idiots on restarts because this single file follow the leader in this aerokit so far is not racing and Sato is 100% to blame I'm tired of this series dropping ovals road courses are not the roots of Indycar ovals are and if we're gonna take Pocono off the schedule because of some past accidents should we drop Indy to the track that has had the most deaths out of any track on the schedule or when there were some big crashes at Texas to ????
Good video. Legit points. Less emotion. Concise.
Turn 2 is a kink even though it was modelled on turn 3 at Indianapolis. It would be great if they could make the changes you mentioned, but also have progressive banking as the cars tend funnel onto the preferred line at ridiculous speeds as we saw in the race. At least then car might not try to rim ride the corner and pj1 traction compound might make a bigger difference on the high line.
People also forget about Hunter Reay getting a minor injury in qualifying for the 2018 Pocono Race too
They'd have to replace/ diamond grind the track surface, I'd imagine. There's not much advantage to heightening the SAFER wall. You've seen and heard it, it sounds like a bobsled at pace. The sad part is, there's no excuse to run there until it's fixed, and ovals are having a hard time successfully hosting an Indycar event. Thoughtful video, thanks.
The walls definitely need raising from the look of it. And proper fence repair needs to be insisted upon. The bumps probably also need some addressing. And I'm all in favor of a proper spotters' stand over by Turn 2.
The nasty crashes do happen at Texas and Indy, but yes, we don't generally see the same sort of thing. That said, we almost lost Hinch at Indy in '15, and Helio flipped that year. In '17, you had Bourdais just about get snapped in half in Qualifying, and Dixon go for one hell of a ride in the race. As for Texas, it's those multi-car wrecks where the bets are off as to just what will happen in the melee.
Hopefully, Pocono feels the pressure to deliver next year, given they're looking at a reduction of major event weekends anyway. And hopefully, the series is willing to keep coming if certain standards are met. It's probably my favorite oval on the calendar; it's something different, a super speedway, and puts on great racing when the guys can keep it together. If the drivers want a bit more downforce, I'm fine with that, and I agree that more practice is a good idea, maybe a practical necessity.
No, I don't see Pocono as inherently "too dangerous". If there's anything else coming to mind, it would be to look at the proximity of the inside wall along the straight, and the fact that that whole area is paved. A one-lane apron is one thing, but I don't like the idea of a setup where you basically psychologically encourage riskier driving because the drivers have the perception of almost unlimited room to play with.
The problem with the proposed ‘track’ improvements (even though they’re technically all good ideas) is that at the end of the day, Pocono(at least in the modern day)is a NASCAR track, not an Indycar track. NASCAR has several races there a year, they draw the biggest attendance/ratings; at the end of the day, they’re always gonna be Pocono’s biggest priority. And NASCAR (from what we’ve seen so far) does not need to have any of these aforementioned improvements for safe racing. Even if Pocono wants to keep Indycar, They probably do not believe it as worth their time and effort to make those improvements, because as long as their bread and butter NASCAR is good, they really don’t care
I said before this race that I wished they'd take this track off the schedule. Looks like I'm going to get my wish.
I'm more of a F1 guy, but just looking from a bird's eye, IndyCar racing at Pocono is the same risk as they were racing at the Indy 500. I notice the past few years with the wrecks it happened at the very beginning of the race. It just bad luck in my view.
Honestly we need to make this track safer but not take it away. Adding Auto Club or Michigan or even both and bring back the super speedway would rebrand this race from a death trap to a crown jewel event. Also in general the schedule needs to be revamped and expanded with more ovals, the glen and the rumored double header at the roval with the Nascar
Pocono: Has road courses
Indycar: No no we can't have that
I still say the biggest issue was the start. If they started that race with hundreds of yards between the rows and had the drivers gradually accelerate like at Indy, the chances of them trying to go three and four wide into a 90 degree corner would have been a lot less.
I point out a track dimension issue of width of straightaways that narrows up to a 1 to 2 car groove in Turn 2. Needs clear track limits for IndyCar on that Long Pond straightaway.
Has anyone ever thought to implement a form of the safer barrier system inside the race car. It can be placed around the driver’s seat so that in an impact the seat can give a little, possibly preventing a spinal cord injury
Gotta be honest, Since Dan Wheldon's crash and the austin dillon crash at daytona I've been saying EVERY track with SAFER barrier that's a mile or bigger needs to have double stacked SAFER barriers, but yes. ESPECIALLY any track IndyCar will run on should have doubled up SAFER barrier at least in the corners...
The drivers do need more track time. They get like 2.5 weeks total track time at Indy. a two day show for a track JUST as challenging for a race at similar speeds and distance is ridiculous.
Also EVERYONE needs to remember this simple fact. IndyCars have been competing at Indianapolis for over 100 years. the last 70 something in a row. Pocono took a 30 ish year hiatus. Roger Penske is about the only guy left still coming to races on a regular basis in that series that remembers what Pocono was and the level of respect you need to have for that place. It shows in the vast lack of respect the drivers have overall for that track. That's why you see these crazy 7 wide initial starts and flips in turn 2 constantly. They forget to treat Pocono with a soft touch and a rational brain. Santino Ferrucci finished 4th as a rookie. When he was interviewed post race, he said (paraphrase) "I just respected the track and let the race come to me." And it was visible near the end when he faded high in turn 2 and didn't push the issue to pass for 3rd. He kept his car clean and was rewarded for smart driving.
I don't like pocono. never have, never will. i don't like the track or the racing it produces. my opinion, fair play to you if you disagree but what caused the shitshow yesterday was the ski rail of an inside wall heading to the tunnel turn. maybe a heavy nascar will stay down there if it wrecks but an indycar going 200+ is either going to bounce right back into the track or slide along until its eventually dumped out in the middle of turn 2. if indycar goes back, this must be changed.
MojoRider 80 I’d like to see it go because the racing is boring. And you can’t see anything there in person. There are other tracks to race at.
That being said, If theyre looking for Oval races and International races in future then the UK does in fact still have one, As Mallory Park recently got its oval license back...