What everybody gets wrong about CNS fatigue
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- You’ve probably heard people say you should be cautious with deadlifts and heavy sets of 1-5 reps,
because these things will fry your central nervous system or CNS and affect your whole body. Central
fatigue is often feared and associated with overtraining. You may have also heard that deload weeks are necessary sometimes to let the CNS recover. All of the above is based on a completely misguided understanding of what central and CNS fatigue are. Let’s look at the facts.
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Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
01:23 CNS fatigue is not central in nature
03:49 What does cause central fatigue?
04:44 Does it even exist?
06:51 Summary
Reference:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27187...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9134916/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17626...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25051...
doi.org/10.1519/JSC.000000000...
doi.org/10.1139/apnm-2019-0004
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26655...
link.springer.com/article/10....
www.sciencedirect.com/science/...
#cnsfatigue #overtraining #fatigue #nervoussystem #centralnervoussystem #mennohenselmans #personaltrainer #personaltrainers #personaltraining #personaltrainerlife #personaltraineronline #personaltraineronline - Наука та технологія
![The best pull-up grip: everyone got it WRONG [study]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxtqcE2GqoI/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember in High School taking a sports science class taught by a former world class cross country skier, he taught about overall fatigue in just this way, and how stress related to exams, relationships, family, etc. all were contributing factors to keep in check, and plan around, in order not to over train.
This is the opposite of what menno is talking about. He is saying that stress from other disciplines in life will not affect your muscles’ ability to train
@@gmart3290laughbly wrong
@@gmart3290- force production comes from a combination of the brain and muscles? Muscles might be ever ready but if you are exhausted due to outwards stress levels, you are just not going to operate the same isn't it? That's how I think of it.
ties up with Haberman s quote, you first give up mentally but your physical body still can keep going
I think we should distinguish between CNS Fatigue and Systemic Fatigue. In my view, Systemic Fatigue not only includes CNS Fatigue but also joint and soft tissue pain, performance breakdown and/or psychological fatigue or a “Wanting a reset” feeling. I feel those are good indicators of when we should deload, just my 2 cents
Certainly sounds like the etymological meaning of the word. Systemic does imply everything. Neither just central, nor peripheral.
Yes! It's more wholistic in defining effective fatigue. Like you'd highlighted, there are multiple indicators.
"when we should deload", if we are not on steroids and our training is primarily strength oriented, is basically never except maybe a day or two or three out from a competition if that's your thing. if we are not on steroids and our training is hypertrophy oriented, taking a break from heavy training in the particular muscle groups or movements or joints that seem to be accumulating signs of an impending injury is a good idea, but a total deload rarely seems necessary either.
@@jedinxf7 Absolutely! When I used to diet for shows or photo shoots, my rep ranges went up to 20 reps plus sometimes to deal with lower caloric intake and general fatigue. These roided out guys training with heavy weights days before a show are even going to tear muscles and tendons of the bone.
"winners vs losers"
I'm taking one dose of pre-workout for every time Menno says fatigue in this video
How jacked with energy were you during this? Lol
@@nwmxrider he's in hospital from caffeine overdose
I am always happy and enlightened after watching your videos. Thank you, Menno, for your discussion of the difference between mental and physical fatigue and putting to rest the overused term "CNS fatigue."
Excellent content. Appreciate your choice of topics and showing how the evidence supports your narration.
Makes perfect sense. Fatigue is at least in part a safety mechanism to keep you from damaging yourself.
Lovely! Putting hard training and its effects and feelings in perspective
Very interesting. Thank you Dr Henselmans
Great video, very interesting info . My client PR’d her squat on Monday and didn’t get much sleep last night. Instead of going easy on everything today, we held back on deadlifts and pushed her accessories and chest exercises with no issue.
Wow this was very eye opening for me, thank you.
What about inflammatory responce to training stress? Increased cortisol levels, a bunch of pro inflammatory cytokines that are realesed by muscles into the blood, etc. I assume if you train a lot of muscles very hard, this will have a noticable impact on your whole system that doesn't have anything to do with CNS. I think this is one of the reasons (if not the main one) why some people want to puke after multimple sets of heavy squats for example.
Yeah I don't know man I do have my doubts.
Ever since I've trusted and been mindful of my fatigue through out my workouts I've significantly reduced injury, and improved results.
When I did not do so, and thus trained heavy consistently for many months without deload, I would stagnate and stop progressing.
I do believe that some people are better than others at accurately evaluating their true fatigue levels compared to others. And I can see how that can create a huge spectrum of people who fail to see that their mental fatigue has not much to do due to overtraining but actually due to other factors. However for myself, when I pushed on despite of intense fatigue, I only dug myself a bigger hole... With bigger injuries.
Muscle fatigue is genetic. There's lots of processes that make someone fatigue really fast and you can test a lot of them in lab.
@@loveinthevalley Interesting. Would you care to elaborate on that? What things can be tested in a lab as far as fatigue and exercise? Some people have health issues that don't allow them to perform or exercise normally (mitochondrial impairment due to lack of restorative sleep, infections, mold issues, hormonal imbalances, heavy metals, metabolic dysfunction etc.) For example some people have what is called "exercise intolerance" and cannot handle high intensity workouts often, and even those are not as long or capable like "normal" people.
very interesting and enlightening! when I think of CNS fatigue I usually think of the way my body and mind feel near the end of an aggressive strongman training block. It feels central but that is probably because every muscle is being used all the time, coupled with the mental fatigue from needing to be in a state of peak arousal for every lift. makes sense
I really needed this. Great video!
Excellent content. Thank you!
I'm on board with the idea that 'CNS fatigue' is an umbrella term with distinct components, from local neuro-muscular fatigue to overall psychological fatigue. Gym bro is going to point out that tired is tired, and nobody is going to have a great workout when their psychological fatigue makes their 6+ RIR feel like 1RIR. If you just keep training after that deadlift PR, the odds that most of it is just junk volume are pretty good.
Calling it mental fatigue is inaccurate, you literally deplete yourself of atp, adrenaline, neurosteriods and on and on, none of it is imaginary.
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 were not even on the topic of energy depletion.
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 exactly what I was thinking. Also some people have energy limitations (health issues) that don't allow them to exercise as hard or long as normal people (mitochondrial damage due to different causes).
I was really surprised at how well researched your video is. And I wish you had left a link to your book, it's not pushy when you have connected it so well to the subject matter of your video. Additionally, I usually buy my books through the Google Play Books store. Did a search there and couldn't find yours. Just thought I would share my search intent and method.
Hmmm... there certainly seems to be central fatigue, unless my leg muscles being tired causes my immune system to dip and my throat to get an infection. I don't really do any endurance training, but if I resistance train hard for more than about 6 weeks and don't deload, I feel run-down and generally unwell. If I ignore this and carry on, I then start getting throat and ear infections. It's not about pushing through laziness. I would much prefer not to have to deload. It pisses me off to be honest. Feels like a week wasted - I love working out, but I feel less and less well if I carry on until I'm forced to stop by being tired and sick enough to be bed-ridden for several days. Perhaps it's not via the mechanism of CNS fatigue, I'm fine with that, but I'm not ready to believe that (resistance) overtraining syndrome doesn't exist, especially as numerous peer-reviewed studies have explored various aspects of OTS, which includes immune system suppression, etc.
I'm the same way
Of course its real
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 Well that's not what he's telling us! "overall findings do not support the existence of a generic non-local muscle fatigue effect".
You and Mike have changed the game
...
This is awesome. I do have a hard time with the notion that it's simply effort fatigue though that occurs towards the end of a big workout that might make us feel overall fatigued even in muscle groups we didn't train that day.. Even if it's not CNS or neuromuscular fatigue, it seems like there would still be some bioenergetic explanation such as having less resources from which to generate ATP, and perhaps something hormonal. It's VERY hard to believe that's just mental. Thanks for the content!
Yeah to me it's kind of like saying your cars run out of gas but suggesting it can still drive. It doesn't compute with me, but I imagine I've misunderstood something somewhere.
Its almost entirely not mental, your adrenaline effect quickly declines just to name one, there are hundreds.
Awesome video
Woow... this is great news!
That means I can resistance train every single day, as long as I stagger the muscle groups throughout the week. :)
Good to see you on here Menno. It's been a while. This video also illustrates a good reason to not do cardio before resistance training (in most situations).
i am amazed, this was a gold mine
Very interesting information. Will you touch on what this means for workout length, assuming one can beat mental fatigue? Is it worth going ahead and training a fresh muscle group i.e. lats, even though we are very fatigued from squats? Or will lat training suffer because we can't bring sufficient intensity? This whole mental aspect is very interesting. I appreciate the classy way you promote your book. Excellent content.
This is more about terminology and less about training prescriptions. The overall sliding scales of resistance training (volume, frequency, intensity) are still the exact same. You still have systemic fatigue to deal with. There's still an MEV and an MRV. I mean yes, after reaching those for some muscle groups you could add other muscle groups on the same day but what then? What will you train tomorrow? Also, whether you can push through or not, feeling miserable and killing yourself in the gym to the point that you're just always exhausted and not in the best of moods... not very beneficial for any physical endeavour. Oh and lastly, you simply cannot stay focussed on sth forever. That's just a physical reality. The longer you do sth, the more productivity goes down, including mental tasks. Let's just say I wouldn't do heavy compound movements if I can barely focus on my technique.
This is more could, not should.
@@MellonVegan Avoiding heavy compound movements in that state, yes. But given that physical fatigue is localised would it make sense to do isolation exercised for fresh muscles? Or will feeling of mental fatigue prevent you bringing necessary intensity? Achieving MRV is realistically impossible, assuming uncontroversial 20 sets per muscle.
There's only so much time to train during work days, so I'm wondering if long weekend sessions can catch up on on some of those exercises, for triceps, rear delts, curls, shrugs, leg extensions etc.
I'd be interested in a followup on systemic fatige. Some people conflate it with CNS fatigue, which is clearly incorrect, but I feel there is too much anecdotal evidence for systemic fatigue and it's respective symptoms (low training motivation, lethargy, etc) to write it off altogether.
There's something to be said about lifters who are obsessed with the sport and love it, finding themselves with these symptoms often to the detriment of their higher volume/frequency goals when they have plenty drive and motivation to get the job done regaurdless.
While it may be strictly physchologically driven, I'd be interested in a roundtable on this topic.
During MASS office hours Eric Trexler and Dr. Zourdos shared a similar perspective on systemic fatigue to Menno, but I feel like it's still not full understood.
Well put and completely agree.
Its not even debatable, most of the "fatigue" one accumulates over say a hard training block is not mental.
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 it 100% feels this way. Although I'm apprehensive on completely disagreeing with Menno given his experience in sports science research. There's certainly more to it that needs discussed scientifically and a "debate" I'm positive will result in concise opposition to Mennos point.
How far can we take this logic? Does this means it never makes sense to rest when we feel 'fatigued' (except local fatigue, pain or sleepiness)? If not, why?
the existence of central pain disorders like fibromyalgia and chronic regional pain syndrome expressly refute the point of the video. Menno attempts to separate mental fatigue from the CNS when the brain is the most important part of the CNS. In people with central pain syndromes, they are having real pain but no physical trauma is seen on tests and images, this means that the CNS is powerful enough to produce peripheral effects (including fatigue) in the body. Menno is entering the realm of medicine in this video, of which he seems to not know much about. Most of the studies are also done on young participants that likely do not have chronic health issues yet, so there's a bias in the research.
You have to be attuned to your body. Fatigue is real and you ll figure out if you need to take it easy or not
holy moly, I had no idea that steady state cardio had such an effect on CNS output.
Do you have any insight into the concept of "yoke flu," a state of illness seen in Strongman competitors the day after doing heavy yoke carries? It seems to be a result of the supramaximal axial loading.
Also, I think a lot of the common discussion of "CNS fatigue" centers around the deadlift, and is more a result of local fatigue in the paraspinous muscles and often inefficient mechanics that shift the fatigue there as "primary movers" instead of into the hips and legs. I've done programs where I deadlift 3x a week and never saw any recovery detriment once I was acclimated to the program and had good technique. Most modern powerlifting programs follow a DUP approach and have very high frequencies, with high frequency on deadlift once considered a no-no.
I had a two week CNS fatigue period at the end of my four month bulk with german volume training (10x10) and it was mainly the squats that did it because the program only had 1 minute rest periods. The squats, deadlifts, even bent rows and overhead presses turned into heavy cardio.
It was like being outside of my body; I couldn't focus on anything nor actually feel my body to any normal degree. Everything felt surreal and out of control, like a dream. Very frustrating, but at least I learned that if you're unsure if you have it... then you don't.
I find this difficult to believe, because that would imply signals of mental fatigue/tiredness/feeling worn out are just entirely subjective noise that is disconnected entirely from the body's potential for perfomance. The best performers would then be the guys that completely and indefinitely disregard their own state of mind and I don't think that is the case.
This is why I love the 4-6 rep range. Maximum stimulus without all the extra fatigue.
Personal anectode (would live Meno's opinion if he reads this)
Recently I kept getting stonger thru weeks 6,7,8 of my last block. I kept thinking "wow I guess I can continue pushing the strength"
Mid session on a hack squat i have started getting exertion headaches and for almost 2 weeks i couldnt push myself too hard or I'd get the massive headache.
Had to take a good week of rest and then bring up the intensity slowly again, and keep it well managed
A lot of the "cns fatigue" people associate with heavy lifting doesn't come from the heavy weight but with all the psyching up they do before they lift.
They keep tapping into their adrenaline stores then blaming the weight on the bar for how they feel the next day.
You can just lift a tiny bit lighter without the mental exertion and recover a lot quicker.
I honestly felt that bicep exericises, because i was able to exert my self immensly while doing them, were extremely fatiguing.
My pulse would raise and I would need to catch my breath, it would take me over 2 minutes (sometimes way over) before I was able to perform the next set. Theoretically more fatiguing exercises, like the lat pulldown for example, would in absolutely no way match the fatigue I experienced during bicep exercises.
This video help put context into an intuitional observation I have going on for me for quite a while.
Noice.
Huh, now I'm more confused.
8 months ago House of Hypertrophy had a video on CNS fatigue, and after I watched it I realized my migraines happened at the same time I would be suddenly weak.(Pullup count dropped from 10 to 2 when I felt "migrainey") So I trained endurance to build my nervous system and pretty much cured my migraines.
Now I'm wondering if I truly understood the mechanism or just did the right thing by accident.
From switching my primary focus from strength to endurance training I've actually noticed my energy levels increase and overall fatigue/lethargy to be way less than with only strength training. I wonder if this is just an byproduct of making my cardiovascular system more effective? Also after aerobic training session my mood noticeably increases, while weights doest seem affect my mood after at all. Do you know if theres any difference in strength vs aerobic training for mood?
very interesting take, although some part of this must be hogwash, since if neurological fatigue is only local in nature it would mean you don't ever need rest between exercises since you're doing other muscle groups.
But how come immediately after a set of squats or leg press even forearm training is insufferable?
The heart as a muscle does play a role in all of this. That's why I do have some questions about his assumptions. If I go hard my heart would need to rest or has a high local fatigue. Some back muscles and stabilizer muscles are also almost always engaged when exercising. The 'it is a mental issue' really bothers me because why else would I have more risk of ankle tears when I train harder even without locally stressing the ancle joint.
This video was 🔥
Menno,
We need a video on how to increase vertical jump please.
actually makes sense if you think about it.. the more localized it is the stronger the signal sent to the brain. its like that browser tab that eats up way more ram than the other and the computer needs to focus most of the effort there, close it and all goes back to normal. it can serve and maintain multiple low requirement processes
What about "stimulus to fatigue ratio" that dr Mike speak a lot, does it mean I should reintegrate deadlift for me and specially during a cut a feel the difference in the recovery part by removing big exercice like the SBD
This is definitely wrong. If you measure your handgrip after a few hard trainings, it will be reduced a lot compared to your baseline. And it’s definitely not a local fatigue, and not a psychological issue
I totally agree. There's no way you test handgrip strength, then go do a heavy squat session and retest with same handgrip strength. It would be reduced even though nothing you did caused local fatigue at the forearm/hand.
That doesn't have to be what we consider CNS fatigue. You being tired can have other causes
@@user-mw2vn7pv8n It doesn’t matter how it called. There is some system level fatigue. And it’s definitely related to our ability to recruit muscles, even if the muscles are not tired. On the other hand, Menno mentioned only psycho problems, like if system fatigue doesn’t exist at all.
That doesn't mean he's wrong in his explanation. You're simply explaining something else and/or it is a psychological issue, as one of the most common things people say to combat psychological issues is that ita not one to begin with... reality doesn't care if you believe something or not though.
@@loveinthevalley The thing is that Menno even didn’t mentioned other possibilities, like there is no such thing as system fatigue.
For example, recently I was sick for a few days. I measured my handgrip strength every day at the same time. And there was a huge decline in performance in the middle of sickness, with slow decreasing at start, and restoring at the end. My muscles weren’t tired, but I couldn’t squeeze hard enough.
Do you want to say, that it was a psychological issue?
Interesting... I've had chronic epilepsy for at least 53 years, with 35 years of experience with strength training. I've noticed that (in my case) strength training does not cause epileptic seizures, but extended periods of intense cardio do. CNS fatigue and epileptic (tonic-clonic) seizures - causation or correlation?
Extremely insightful 🙏 thank you sir.
Seems my CNS gets fried when discussing with vegans for some reason
@menno Do you mean neurological when adressing the mental? I think it would be good to make distinction between them. Hormonal or general dopamine storage is not equal for all. If these are depleted because of hard training, just willing to go as hard is not possible.
“Feelings don’t necessarily correspond any physical reality” in which world does that make sense?
why is then measuring the grip strength a good indicator of "cns" activation ? or is it just a coincidence because the hands are involved in almost all exercises ?
What is the definition of fatigue experienced when cognitive or sensory functions are used for an extended period, such as a long exam, big presentation, or hunting? Does it not impact neuromuscular drive?
any ways to add some endurance to motor neurons? or get them to recover quicker?
I'm not saying it's right or wrong but the issue with studies like that is that they're most of then done on either untrained people or very causal gym goers. Which makes them pretty biased.
Enjoyed!
It's about the spinal loading, I believe. That is why deadlifts seem to wreck me far worse than bench
Learning this should I do 3 sessions of cardio in one week and 1 the week after or 2 and 2
It's soft tissue fatigue/damage, which feedbacks to the golgi tendon apparatus which limits power/strength output. Not central but peripheral. Muscle don't have this feedback beyond being exhausted during exercise, or damaged and Not functioning.
I think there was an axial load component to what Isratel said, but anyhow I think there is something else beyond mentql fatigue as well. Systemic can be metabolic too.
They called me an idiot for saying this "the CNS will nog fatique by doing a little strength training..... it absolutely will not even damage. The CNS is build for what it does, just giving signal to the muscles....
please make more videos :)
I will!
Your computer example is ironic cause constantly opening and closing an app can cause memory usage errors that will slow down or "fatigue" the system
Never had a fever or super tired, weak grip when waking up from doign a "bicep only" workout the day before....
had plenty of those days when doing heavy full body, to the limit barbell lifts...
Follow your common sense
When I do three or four sets of hard deadlifts, I feel like I'm internally vibrating and jittery. I don't know how that can be psychological more than a nervous system issue. I've felt mentally drained and not in it anymore, and this is definitely not that. The jittery, internal vibration lasts for hours. Thoughts?
Probably adrenaline.
@OneManStartup yeah possibly. Hadn't considered it, but at the same time my force output definitely takes a hit.
Holy shit, this is Pacific Rim all over again. 800 Diesel Engines per muscle strand.
With ADD and a life on medication to counter a different CNS, I find this very interresting. The dopaminergic /norepinephric system can get quite fatigued even on meds (dexamphetamine or methylphenidate). But a short reset of 30 min sensory deprivation and a sitting nap will massively reduce this particular type of CNS-fatigue, and will let the drugs kick back in. I have no idea of how it happens, maybe there is a positive feed back loop when these neurotransmitters are being fed into the system, with significantly reduced drainage from sensory and cognitive stimulus…
Normally I do cluster sets which cause a lot of fatigue and next day DOMS. Yesterday I did escalating weights for one rep each close to my 1RM, I did not feel fatigued and I don't have any soreness today.
What is the mechanism of the local nervous system fatigue? Is it the buildup of metabolites, or the consumption of certain neurotransmitters or something? Electrolytes?
I was wondering the same thing.
It's a multi-source mechanism, which is poorly, or incompletely understood
Hmm. Interesting. But I wonder what you mean when you say that the brain is like software and doesn't tire? Is that really true? Don't neurological impulses tire the system? When I was a student in Japan and spoke Japanese all day I was totally exhausted at night. You call this psychological and effort adverse. But I loved learning the language. Same when practicing the piano. After a while you get tired and have to take a brake. Is this just psychological? And doesn't have a physical cause? What is it then? This confuses me.
Great Video Menno!
Always wondered about the truth of cns from deadlifts. I've never noticed any issues.
thank you
I think just saying mental fatigue is psychological but not central nervous is an oversimplification. The ability to force oneself to do an unpleasant task is limited and has correlating biological mechanisms in the brain. It is just not as simple as muscle physiology.
Yes but how do you explain that after a AMRAP of deadlift, in the following days you are not literally able to do anything? Sometimes I got flu after very heavy workouts. It's all about inflammation? Pls search with me an answer
What do we call it when over training results in a lower immune system and people report getting sick of it. I have experienced this myself after intensive training.
The real problem is systemic fatigue that feels like being exhausted even hours after the work out. That happens to me a lot although i eat and sleep a lot. This seems like overtraining but i never had significant performance drop in a work out, but i feel a huge drop after the work out in doing daily physical activities and mental tasks until i sleep.
Any tips?
If you think for one second that jogging or bicep training is as systematically fatiguing or MORE than heavy deadlifts and/or squats then you've never deadlifted or squatted heavy. You don't need a study or experiment to know this, just try it. I will say REAL endurance training is taxing but after you reach a certain threshold or start training somewhat consistently recovery becomes much easier short of running a marathon, that's the adaptation part. Weightlifting is the opposite. The more muscle you have, the longer it will take to repair and recover as long as the damage is proportional to what you did at a previous size. Your body can only heal so fast. I'm sure it's possible your body could adapt to healing faster or more efficiently to some degree but only so much, you'd have to do a study on it.
I'll single out biceps, calves, abs, traps or forearms, etc. a lot on my rest days, work that one muscle or muscle group hard and feel totally refreshed and recovered mentally and energy wise the next day.
Regardless if it is officially "cns" fatigue or some other type of fatigue, it's fatigue. I could jog and/or power through a few days of bi's in a row and know I could actually still give a decent effort days into it waaayyyy before I could squat and/or deadlift heavy several days in a row no matter what the readout on the machine says or where the fatigue originates from.
Rhabdomyolyses and CNS fatigue, is there a colleration?
Interesting. Well, the psychological fatigue IS basically neurological (brain) + endocrine system fatigue, which are main regulatory/control systems influencing our "performance" in everyday life, exercise included. An even broader "systemic" fatigue if it truly exists and can negatively impact training probably also includes accumulated connective tissue damage (to the extent that it can be sensed neurologically) and even some unfavorable immune system response/fluctuation (a slight secondary transient "immunodeficiency" for a lack of a better term).
I think this leaves a big gap in pool of knowledge. If it is not CNS fatigue why is that when lifters take a great from the gym, usually all their lifts go up? There are people who love to go to the gym and push themselves that still suffer from this type of fatigue that can be cure from a week break? Can mental fatigue explain this? I don't think so, what is your opinion Menno?
Anyone who lifts heavy knows for a fact that systemic fatigue is real. Maybe you're right and it's not caused by the mechasim you mentioned, which is the most popularly touted reason for it. Maybe it shouldn't be called CNS fatigue. Maybe it's an entirely separate phenomenon that should be investigated. But you can bet it's a real and cumulative longer term effect over days and weeks, and is systemic in nature, meaning whatever exercise you fatigue from affects your performance in all others.
Exactly
Menno would probably argue this systemic fatigue is in fact the mental fatigue he mentions in the video, and that although it can affect your performance on everything, it can also be overcome via mental conditioning, a change in attitude, or some other mechanism that can affect your perspective. That said, I totally agree with you that the effect is definitely real. Possibly, we could call this some sort of placebo effect, but the outcome of this effect is exactly the same as a non-placebo effect by the very nature that it is and has an effect at all.
No one said what you're feeling is not real. It's just not some kind of neural degeneration or other that would inhibit neural function, which the term CNS fatigue implies. That's it.
@@MellonVegan He explicitly said that one exercise does not affect another, and that any physiological fatigue is localized. Again, if you have ever lifted you know for a fact that it does. That's the entire reason it's often called "systemic" fatigue.
For sure, any powerlifter knows this. Easy to claim its not real or that fatigue is localized if you're a bodybuilder that never hits maxes or doesn't deadlift heavy.
Ended it with a banger of a quote.
ties up with Haberman s quote, you first give up mentally but your physical body still can keep going
I used to think I had CNS fatigue, when I completed my last set of heavy rack pulls, I experienced strong respiratory & muscular fatigue, I also read somewhere that cns fatigue could kill you , so I stopped doing rack pulls..
What is the difference between cns fatigue and psychosomatic disorder fatigue?
What about the use up of neurotransmitters? Cant this cause cns fatigue? An extreme example would be the abuse of chemical drugs but i guess this can happen in a less pronounced way while training or working? E.g. muscle contractions need serotonin. Moreover, training leads to an ejection of cortisol, dopamin etc. what the body has to recover from.
What about prescription stimulants and caffeine causing CNS fatigue?
I guess this is an arguement in favour of co trolled but not slow tempo of eccentrics as opposed to Mike Isrataels slow eccentric approach.
Have to weigh up what’s more of an injury risk, the central fatigue from eccentrics or the soft tissue injury risk of faster tempo
Very good video, but this makes me wonder. Why do highly respected individuals in the community such as Dr. Mike Israetel talk so much about avoiding systemic fatigue? Is it just a simple misunderstanding?
I'm wondering the same thing. The way Dr. Mike talks about deloads, I'm more inclined to think he is referring to the mental fatigue that could accumulate after multiple weeks of heavy training. In such instances, a week of deload could act as a mental break to then get you motivated to get back to it for another meso. Curious to hear others' thoughts as well.
@@aeowid yes... I am wondering too
I was thinking about the same. First, even the best experts of any field have the current data available and if the current consensus is "cns fatigue exists", they'll operate accordingly. So even if incorrect, we don't know yet.
Second, it seems to me the phenomenon of "cns fatigue" exists, in the sense there is indeed nervous system fatigue, however the mechanism of it is different than previously believed. Nonetheless it is a real experience and it needs to be managed.
Just like when most people in the past thought muscle soreness (doms specifically) was caused by lactic acid. It was incorrect, however the muscles were indeed sore and needed recovery.
Therefore deload weeks may still be beneficial, if not for treating the let's say cns fatigue, but perhaps a psychological fatigue resulting in a reinvigorated motivation to train. Plus also allowing the joints to heal up, as they regenerate slower than muscles
@@doctorgorgomel I think anyone who lifts knows it's quite real and not just a mindset thing. Dr. Mike is a bodybuilder and trainer, so he has lots of first hand experience with that phenomenon. Maybe he's careful to call it "systemic", as opposed to "CNS" fatigue, precisely to decouple the real experience from the purported and as yet unproven mechanism. The fact is, even if it's not CNS it's something else, because it's real af
Also cns fatigue is not his main argument for deloads, I do think muscles, ligaments, tendons can acumulate enough damage overtime where a deload becomes useful, specially when periodizing, in his programs he slowly ramps up the intensity to a "peak" week, instead of constantly autoregulating to keep the same intensity
Feelings are physical. They are more than just electrical impulses, they consist of neurotransmitters and hormones. These are physical objects that produce sensations and emotions. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that general fatigue is chemical in nature, as opposed to electrical or mechanical.
5:10 idk , I did the deadlifts the other day and then did bicep curls and I just couldn’t contract my bicep like I usually can. After Deadlifts I literally feel like my CNS is fried and can’t get the mind muscle connection I usually have
What would you consider the neurological effect of sleep to be? We all know shitty sleep leads to decreased ability to output force consistently. We totally feel weak and really averse to lifting shit, and the numbers generally show. I cannot imaginge this being a sheer "psychological" effect, while my body is actually totally fine.
How exactly is cns fatigue measured?
I appreciate the science and all the studies backing this up, but my personal experience is pretty much the opposite of all that is being stated here.
So CNS fatigue is mental fatigue? or I didnt understood correctly?
So what is systemic fatigue? Is it just another name for CNS fatigue, or is it something else?
If this was true, then priorizing a muscle by training it first wouldn't change anything, as it is usually suggested.
Given that we are biopsychosocial beings, whereby ones biological state can affect their psychological makeup and social interactions (and vice versa), is it not possible that psychological fatigue is simply an external manifestation of nervous system fatigue?
I'm not convinced that there is no form of central/global biophysical fatigue involved. Though I ain't young as I used ta be, I love working out and will easily overdo it if I don't watch out. I don't get the chance often as I'd like, so I do these huge, full-body workouts with high intensity and volume. I can end up feeling like I gave myself malaria or something; I can't think clearly or motivate myself for the rest of the day and sometimes can't sleep that night. If I'm mindful and stop short of this extreme effort, I don't get this adverse effect.
Is chronically elevated BP and heart rate for no apparent reason CNS fatigue?
I cannot imagine any cause and effect relationship between a kind of neural fatigue and increased BP and heart rate.
That said, if you feel tired and tend to have increased BP and heart rate, you might just not sleep enough (or you might not sleep well enough).
That will be the answer for 99% of all people with those symptoms. That and being fat.
Mind = blown.
The boy genius 🧠
Great